Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
I don't know how long you have debated but this is really old hat.
Do you really think that "all this" was a result of a thinking cognition?
Year after year the seasons change but you dont worship a "season god". Do you need an ocean god to explain hurricanes? Do you need a tornado god to explain tornados?
The atoms of your poo are organized but I don't think you worship a shit god do you?
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
It's a possibility in the same sense that the lack of vampires around here demonstrates the existence of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
P1: Matter exists
P2: ???
Conclusion: God exists
What a non-seck (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29)!
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
Firstly, it seems entirely possible to me that the universe may well be a phase change. In the same way that water changes to ice under certain conditions, it seems to me possible that the Universe might well be a massive phase change of energy into matter.
As far as whether that would prove any god's existence, well, no. What would prove a god's existence would be evidence that could only be left by a god, and not natural processes.
Whu... I..... but ...the...... oh.......... um ..............
nope.......can't do it.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
Firstly, it seems entirely possible to me that the universe may well be a phase change. In the same way that water changes to ice under certain conditions, it seems to me possible that the Universe might well be a massive phase change of energy into matter.
As far as whether that would prove any god's existence, well, no. What would prove a god's existence would be evidence that could only be left by a god, and not natural processes.
I was thinking almost the exact same thing. Did the Universe really come from nothing? No, there was energy. If there truly was
nothing, as in no energy, no matter, just epmtyness, then I would say yes. But as we know we really didn't come from nothing, than no, it does not.
Frankly I always find this argument even better. For if nothing existed before god, then even knowledge could not exist and the suggestion that we go from nothing to absolute knowledge is a spectacularly ridiculous position. That a nano second ago nothing existed then all of a sudden all knowledge of physics that didn't exist because even the atom didn't existed somehow became available to something that a nano second ago had no way of even acquiring knowledge suddenly could acquire it and formulate it enough to create the atom. And then..and this is the fun part to me.....
realizes that darkness is bad...why? Could it not adapt to darkness? So NOT omnipotent? So it suddenly understands and knows all about physics and creates atom and yada yada but somehow is able to also understand hunger? What? It doesn't need to eat does it? So NOT omnipotent. How can the whole of the idea of hunger pop into a head of something when hunger has no reason to exist as nothing has a need to eat? So this thing invents the concept of hunger that would be impossible to invent as there is nothing that requires sustenance that the idea of hunger would present an answer. Understand the endless possibilities of the argument? How can you realize light when darkness is perfectly acceptable as it was the default and there would be no reason to suggest the need for light. What is with jealousy and hatred when nothing existed that suggested a need for any of it? I can see the concept of something coming from nothing, but to go from nothing, to something more than nothing, to understanding everything that can be from nothing that exists, is far more ridiculous than anything I can conceive.
The idea of a infinitely existing god , begs the question as above, not only that, but also begs, "the first thought problem".
lolwut?
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
Firstly, it seems entirely possible to me that the universe may well be a phase change. In the same way that water changes to ice under certain conditions, it seems to me possible that the Universe might well be a massive phase change of energy into matter.
As far as whether that would prove any god's existence, well, no. What would prove a god's existence would be evidence that could only be left by a god, and not natural processes.
I've been interested in reading up on that for a while now, do you know what the name of this theory (if it's a theory) is called? any good articles i can read up on?
No.
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
It wouldn't be nothing if there was a god.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"It wouldn't be nothing if there was a god.
Yeah! The existence of God would disprove the notion that the existence of the universe somehow proves the existence of God since either God always existed (in which case true nothingness is impossible) or God somehow came into being (in which case getting something from nothingness is possible). Either way, it's a dead argument.
I think this is one of the hottest topics in the Atheist Experience Show
[youtube:1apc9ihh]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6838c6hJ28[/youtube:1apc9ihh]
You cannot demonstrate nothing we don't have a nothing.
Dude x+ y = God
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Whu... I..... but ...the...... oh.......... um ..............
nope.......can't do it.
Eastwood, is that you talking to empty chairs again?
Quote from: "Brian37"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Whu... I..... but ...the...... oh.......... um ..............
nope.......can't do it.
Eastwood, is that you talking to empty chairs again?
Ouch - comparing me to Eastwood. Oh the pain. The agony.
ROFL
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "Brian37"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Whu... I..... but ...the...... oh.......... um ..............
nope.......can't do it.
Eastwood, is that you talking to empty chairs again?
Ouch - comparing me to Eastwood. Oh the pain. The agony.
ROFL
It's ok we'll get you some help. He he.
I think asking this question just made me more deeply confused... >_<
Quote from: "victormarte"I think asking this question just made me more deeply confused... >_<
Confused about what? There is no god, nothing to be confused about.
Quote from: "victormarte"I think asking this question just made me more deeply confused... >_<
It's called "God of Gaps" - when there are open holes left without (yet) explanation.
Some of us don't necessarily fill those empty holes with 'therefore God". We like better answers than that. Some of us accept that while we may not know everything, filling in the gaps with an assumption simply isn't good enough. Some of us are prepared and fully expect for science to answer all the questions someday.
It's not a crime to think or say "I don't know." And it's not some warped assumption that the individual saying 'not sure' or 'don't know yet' indicates any lack of intelligence. In fact, waiting for Real information as opposed to accepting No information or false information --is the smarter of the two.
hope this helps
"Something from nothing" is the wrong question.................
Science is documenting over time the fact that nothing as as pure concept does not exist in physical reality.
Quantum mechanics and the foaming virtual particles of matter/energy in a quantum vacuum nothingness is revealing itself to be the reality that would nullify such a question.
The question would then become........how does a quantum state of something fluctuate into a physical reality (aka universe)
Of course this is still work in progress but we are really finding mathmetical constructs and confirmation through experimentation. LHC is as huge contributor to such evidence.
Quantum theory has been around since the 1920's but is very slow to become known by the lay public...........it is a very difficult and counter intuiative to common sense that despite its bizarre attributes is one of the most successful theory in predictiablity in all of science.
Without knowing about quantum reality and its effects there would be no computers, lasers, tv monitors etc..........
If the unstable quantum vacuum is where all comes from.......then it is both eternal and unstable leading to fluctuations of universes..............which would not have a first cause nor any intelligent design.
Regardless.........even if some aspect of this are not accurate and revised by new evidence from scientific discoveries........the idea of placing God in the role of a quantum vacuum is trying to solve one mystery with another mystery.......
It is better to leave out the mystery of a supernatural entity and look for scientific evidence to the emergent mystery of the universe that we can define and predict.
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
No because then you would still have to explain where god came from...
Quote from: "Navynukeman"Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
No because then you would still have to explain where god came from...
That's right.
The real question isn't where the universe comes from. It's why existence exists. It doesn't really matter WHAT that magical "X" quantity is that you say created everything: that question always lingers: "Why does/did X exist?"
Quote from: "dawiw"You cannot demonstrate nothing we don't have a nothing.
[youtube:2vaixnf4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNFum0P5pP0[/youtube:2vaixnf4]
When you say "something from nothing," what exactly do you mean? As Panther said, the concept of "nothing," meaning a lack of any physical thing at all, doesn't exist in reality. Unfortunately, that is the kind of "nothing" that Christians mean.
However, if they are going by the Bible, then even Genesis does not say that God created everything from nothing. There WAS something, but it was "unformed" and "chaotic." Earth is described as already existing, with God hovering over the deep (the world ocean, a common concept in religions). There is no mention of nothingness or a cosmic vacuum or whatever. Just as humans can't make something unless something else is already there, so God was limited to making things from already-existing things.
Quote from: "Navynukeman"Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
No because then you would still have to explain where god came from...
Someone could say "hey i told you, god was just there because he is something from nothing"
But then the whole argument of "where did everything came from?" falls apart, because if god (who is something) can come from nothing, so can the universe, thus rendering the whole argument of "something cannot come from nothing, therefor god" moot.
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
No, it doesn't prove a thing, other than something can come from nothing. There would be nothing in that discovery that points to God. The cause could be something other than God. What your friend is saying is
Something can't come from nothing.
But something did come from nothing.
Therefore, God exists.
The logic fails because "Something can't come from nothing" is an assumption, but the disovery itself proves it to be false. Any gibberish that follows doesn't mean anything. But that isn't the only fallacy there. The thing is fucked up on many levels.
Quote from: "SGOS"The logic fails because "Something can't come from nothing" is an assumption, but the disovery itself proves it to be false.
Can this be put in our logo?
Quote from: "victormarte"Can "something from nothing" prove God?
No.
What on earth made you think that it could?
No, it can't prove anything about god.
The hypothesis that came out of nothing was interpreted through scientific Methodology, with an accumulation of knowledge about various aspects of the universe and don't need no god. Assuming that this god was only responsible for creating the universe and not participate, it would be much more logical to replace god by chance, by all evidence to corroborate a godless universe. Not to mention the utter illogicality in some god interfering in a world as random as it comes out of nothing.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "SGOS"The logic fails because "Something can't come from nothing" is an assumption, but the disovery itself proves it to be false.
Can this be put in our logo?
In our logo? Not just in someone's signature line? Why yes, of course. In our logo, by all means. Gory Halleluiah!
There is no proof for god - on any level.
This is what's funny about theists.
Option A: Something cannot come from nothing, therefore God must exist.
Option B: Something can come from nothing, therefore God must exist.
Seriously, what the fuck people?
No it can't. Proof is seldom derived from a deductive argument.
And the argument rests on the unproven premiss that there was necessarily nothing before there was something. Which is just an opinion.
Gerard
Quote from: "victormarte"Had a little debate with my christian friend and we started talking about science's new findings. I mentioned that I watched lectures and read things about us finding a thing dubbed "we now know that something can come from nothing." He then said, couldn't that prove the existence of god? I know there isn't too much info on this topic, but is it a possibility?
It lends a tiny bit of credence to the idea of a god that had a beginning, but I think if your friend thought it through, that might not be the god he's trying to justify.
I subscribe to the idea that nothingness in itself inherently unstable anyway, so something is bound to come of it God or no God, such as virtual particles breaking out in the unstable vacuum and creating real particles such as the Higgs which makes matter heavy and the ones our bodies are made of. Since something and everything physically possible can emerge spontaneously without one I do not see the point in a need for a God at all. I think God is totally unnecessary and a completely archaic explanation for the creation of the universe.
no
If its a valid argument for god, than its an equally valid argument against the necessity of one.
Not really no. Christians really love to set up false dichotomies don't they?