Should transgender women be allowed to compete in women's sports?
The argument against allowing transgender women to compete in women's sports is that someone born male can, not necessarily will, have physiological advantages over someone born female that cannot be overcome by any amount of conditioning or training.
As far as I can tell the arguments for allowing transgender women to compete in women's sports are mainly centered around the possible psychological damage caused by not allowing someone who identifies as female to complete with other women.
What say you? Yes or no, and more importantly why?
I often feel like they shouldn't. Exactly for your first set of reasons. We are a sexualy dimorphic species and sex change operations don't completely overhaul all of that.
I feel bad for the women that fall out of the competition because of that, but yeah. Neither option seems fair.
But you are not a woman because you can compete in ranked woman's sports, if that makes sense.
Its not a strong position, i hold, however. I can see the other arguments
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on March 01, 2023, 01:08:48 PMThe argument against allowing transgender women to compete in women's sports is that someone born male can, not necessarily will, have physiological advantages over someone born female that cannot be overcome by any amount of conditioning or training.
I start with I'll care about sports when hell exists and freezes over.
That said, is this actually true, or just dumb sexism again? I had read somewhere that women's muscles don't bulge as much as men's when at a similar level of strength development, which would lead braindead chads to think they aren't as strong, when they are. So would a trans woman actually have a physiological advantage because they are biologically male? I don't think that's true.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 01, 2023, 01:18:47 PMI often feel like they shouldn't. Exactly for your first set of reasons. We are a sexualy dimorphic species and sex change operations don't completely overhaul all of that.
I feel bad for the women that fall out of the competition because of that, but yeah. Neither option seems fair.
But you are not a woman because you can compete in ranked woman's sports, if that makes sense.
Its not a strong position, i hold, however. I can see the other arguments
This is pretty much where I sit. I posted the question to see if I can be convinced that I am wrong.
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 01, 2023, 01:29:53 PMI start with I'll care about sports when hell exists and freezes over.
That said, is this actually true, or just dumb sexism again? I had read somewhere that women's muscles don't bulge as much as men's when at a similar level of strength development, which would lead braindead chads to think they aren't as strong, when they are. So would a trans woman actually have a physiological advantage because they are biologically male? I don't think that's true.
First off, this isn't about sports. It is about people.
As far as physiological advantages go it is pretty clear that at least at the elite end of the spectrum men have a physiological advantage over women. All you have to do is look at almost any world record for an athletic event and compare the men to the women. For example the New York marathon women's record 142.5 minutes. The men's record is 125.1 minutes. Almost 14% better than the women's time. Katie Ledecky is one of the best women's swimmer to ever compete. Her time in her best event at the US Olympic trials would have placed her 98th in the men's field. She wouldn't have even made the team.
This does not mean you average couch potato male is going to be able to compete with an elite woman in her specialty, but if you compare a man and a woman about the same size with similar training and conditioning the man is almost always going to be stronger and faster. The playing field starts to level out when you start talking about endurance.
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 01, 2023, 01:29:53 PMSo would a trans woman actually have a physiological advantage because they are biologically male? I don't think that's true.
Human sexuality, as we should all know, is not A or B. It is more like A to Z. Estimated 1.7% of all humans are born with both sex organs of differing pronouncements. In the past a doctor would make a decision to "cut or sew" that which is more pronounced, with no regard or knowledge of any genetic or psychological ramifications. Then they grow up and discover that they prefer the same sex. In the same vein, humanity has a scale of masculinity or femininity, we have all witnessed the ultra meathead macho nut and then the majority of men fit into a relatively larger mix of "normal" followed by men who tend to more feminine behaviors, same as women. So sexuality is the entire scale from asshole to flamer and sweet subservient lady to full blown butch.
So mathematically over 4 million Americans alone were born gender "neutral", we are ignorant of it and proclaim they are weird or worse.
Real humanity would address the problem, best as they can, at birth. There are others less pronounced who will not discover their identity until they perhaps reach puberty when the underlying genetics begin their dance.
Sports is a touchy subject as it would imply cheating. There should be, even among those who transition, an understanding of this raw emotion.
Eventually, perhaps, genetic testing can ascertain such "anomalies" at birth and correct assignment can be done at that time, should it be considered prudent.
Does the fact that Bruce Jenner, an American Olympic decathalon winner did not make the change till later in life despite, admitting he never felt really male, make all the men feel cheated or rather embarrassed?
If the welfare of a child is of importance than serious, thoughtful, but most importantly, knowledgeable discussion should be had among those who have at heart the best interest of all, and not the sole possession of first place.
Other than that, I have no idea what the end result "should" be.
QuoteShould transgender women be allowed to compete in women's sports?
No, because we aren't talking about gender - we are talking about sex.
If we are going to insist sex =/= gender, then we have to realize that gender =/= sex as well - sports are divided by *sex*, not gender and thus physically, sexually male athletes have no right competing in physically, sexually female competitions.
As for "why" that matters - just simple physical differences between the overwhelming majority of sexually male and female athletes and the disadvantages/risks that puts women at.
Bahh.
Women give birth. Can you imagine a man going through that pain and then doing it again?
Let's not fall into the 'women are the weaker sex bullshit.'
I work with men that struggle with strength tasks that women can easily cope with them.
Hormones come into play here obviously, so whether someone who is at the start of their journey competes is a matter for whatever governing body makes the decisions.
Who the fuck are we to judge? It's only sport at the end of the day. Light entertainment for all of us bored mammals who need something to keep us occupied before we die.
Women give birth, therefore men are pussies.
lol
QuoteLet's not fall into the 'women are the weaker sex bullshit.'
Already been addressed - they aren't "the weaker sex", they are "the sex that statistically, due to a variety of genetic differences, overwhelmingly are weaker when compared to men of extremely similar base size and training".
Making it anything more than that is placing your own biases on it.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2023, 10:28:19 PMAlready been addressed - they aren't "the weaker sex", they are "the sex that statistically, due to a variety of genetic differences, overwhelmingly are weaker when compared to men of extremely similar base size and training".
Making it anything more than that is placing your own biases on it.
Show me the statistics that back up your claim.
Saying random stuff again aren't you?
Give me the statistics for let's say... The last ten years of study into this particular subject.
Quote from: M on March 05, 2023, 04:06:33 PMShow me the statistics that back up your claim.
Sure, this is from Duke law...
https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/
QuoteIf you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females. The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it's still insurmountable and that's ultimately what matters.
Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:
Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that's the right number of zeros.)
The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix's 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times.
As for any more evidence, Google exists - feel free to look up any competition statistics in essentially all physically-demanding sports and compare the statistics of the male and female athletes.
But if you cant use your eyes and figure out that women are genetically weaker then men on average, I don't know what to tell you other than look for a new pair of glasses.
I mean, M, i'm not going to be able to give you all the statistics of the past ten years.
Don't want to speak for shiranu, but i doubt he will either.
But, this stuff is not hard to find.
I mean, google will get you to this article rather quickly, for example:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.859931/full
Which doesn't go into saying how many women got how many results in sports. But it does tey to explain in part why average muscle strength and formation and the likes are different in males and females.
But if you are really interested in statistics:
Go to the references of this wiki page qnd click on number 4, the oregon 2022 statistics handbook and cross reference male and female records, found on pages 13 and 14.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_long_jump_world_record_progression
Quote from: Shiranu on March 05, 2023, 04:54:53 PMSure, this is from Duke law...
https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/
As for any more evidence, Google exists - feel free to look up any competition statistics in essentially all physically-demanding sports and compare the statistics of the male and female athletes.
But if you cant use your eyes and figure out that women are genetically weaker then men on average, I don't know what to tell you other than look for a new pair of glasses.
Fastest 100m by a male athlete.
9.58
Fastest 100m by a female
10.49
Both are world records but not worlds apart.
You've been very selective as usual with your examples.
Would a male figure skater measure up to a female with the judges?
I think not. You have nothing to go on as usual.
Quote from: M on March 05, 2023, 05:45:05 PMYou've been very selective as usual with your examples.
>"Here is one example that doesn't match average, therefor the average is wrong."
>"You are very selective as usual with your examples."
You wanna try that one again, buddy?
Quote from: M on March 05, 2023, 05:45:05 PMFastest 100m by a male athlete.
9.58
Fastest 100m by a female
10.49
Both are world records but not worlds apart.
The difference need not be very large though. We are not the most sexualy dimorphic species on the planet. Nobody is claiming that.
What is more important, on the level of high grade competitive sports, is that the difference is consistent. Which it does seem to be.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 05, 2023, 06:15:32 PMThe difference need not be very large though. We are not the most sexualy dimorphic species on the planet. Nobody is claiming that.
What is more important, on the level of high grade competitive sports, is that the difference is consistent. Which it does seem to be.
I guess large is a matter of perspective. The difference between the men's and women's 100 meter is almost 10%. Which is what Shir said. The fastest man would complete the distance about 10 meters ahead of the fastest woman in the this event. That is a pretty big difference to me. That percentage is consistent through out most running events. It is even larger in jumping events at about 15%.
More telling is that athletic boys as young as 14 are faster and and can jump further than the women's world record holders. Post puberty males have a verafible physical advantage of females of any age.