Christianity has a long history of harming others, both in theory and practice. How do Christians reconcile this past (and, indeed, the current Christian theories and practices), in the context of actually following Christ?
A simple answer is, that many Christians do not wrestle with such things. They are accepting of what they're given by those who they assume do grapple with such matters. But there are Christians who seek to embrace Christ's teachings of love and forgiveness, compassion and sacrifice, all the good things he did and called others to do likewise, aligning words with deeds.
Child sexual abuse has been a problem for a long time. It is particularly shocking, egregious when the perpetrator is in a position of power over the child. Especially so when it is a spiritual leader.
The Catholic Church has been rocked by systemic child sexual abuse. While other branches of Christianity also have cases of child sexual abusers from the ministry, they lack the depth, breadth, and systematic cover-up that the Catholic Church created (deep pockets and adherence to structures rather than actively seeking God contributed).
Why doesn't the Bible speak to this heinous violation? If it's been a problem in the Christian Church since the beginnings (because it was a problem in Jewish ministry, it was inherited and continued)?
The Bible says clearly that leaders of the Church, those with responsibilities concerning children, should not have sex with them. To do that is an abomination!
Yet these verses are twisted today by Christians to judge, mistreat, and even abuse gay people/ homosexuals (and often anyone under the LGBTQIA+ category is also lumped in.).
We are called to condemn child sexual abuse. It is disgusting, defiling, and an utter abomination to God.
As a Christian, I am outraged that this continues. We must condemn those who harm people who are least able to protect themselves.
By accepting these twisted verses and ideas, Christians have abandoned victims of child sexual abuse. They need the peace and comfort of God deeply, and we offer them no solace. That is a horrid sin in itself.
And, yet, that is not the only sin Christians are doing here. People who are LGBTQIA+ have been continuously harmed as a result of these ideas. Physically hurt as well as spiritually, emotionally, mentally. Christians have created a narrative that being gay is the big sin. And this really screws up the message that God is love. Because, why are Christians claiming that God is love and how we should love one another, then declaring that two people loving one another is an affront to God?!
God is love. We are called to love God and to love one another. There is sin in this world, and it is important that Christians call it out. Seek out those dark corners and shine light there so evil can't continue in the shadows.
Denying human rights is a sin. Child sexual abuse is a sin.
Two adults who love each other are doing exactly what we are on this Earth to do. We are to love one another, whether male, female, straight, gay, black, white, and anything in-between. Jesus tells us how those things aren't eternal anyway-but LOVE is.
This is the message I am called to share. True to my name, I did literally quake as I typed this... I feel called to share this with my fellow Christians-and with all child sexual abuse victims and victims of Christian gay bashing (I don't know a term for that)....
I'm so anxious and fearful about what they will say and do to me when I strengthen myself enough to say this. I want my PTSD a little more controlled before I share this beyond my own little circle -and of course I am now sharing beyond that, but with you lot of atheists and such, who are unlikely to threaten me with pitchforks and death, with your general preference for derision and memes...
Christians (particularly Conservative Christians) often like to deflect blame onto others. They accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of doing. Heck, they don't only do it to the LGBTQ+, but they do it to each other, which REALLY doesn't help their case.
"Oh, those Catholics, always screwing around with their choir boys. That's how you know they're not true Christians. We would never do anything like that. And if we did, we'd drag them out into the streets and kick them out immediately."
"Pastor, didn't a woman accuse you of sleeping with her daughter during youth camp?"
"That's not true! And that girl was an evil seductress, sent by the devil to tempt me!"
[Later...]
"Oh, look. Another Baptist pastor caught using his position of power to sexually abuse minors. We Mormons would NEVER do that!"
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 27, 2023, 11:55:08 AMChristians (particularly Conservative Christians) often like to deflect blame onto others. They accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of doing. Heck, they don't only do it to the LGBTQ+, but they do it to each other, which REALLY doesn't help their case.
"Oh, those Catholics, always screwing around with their choir boys. That's how you know they're not true Christians. We would never do anything like that. And if we did, we'd drag them out into the streets and kick them out immediately."
"Pastor, didn't a woman accuse you of sleeping with her daughter during youth camp?"
"That's not true! And that girl was an evil seductress, sent by the devil to tempt me!"
[Later...]
"Oh, look. Another Baptist pastor caught using his position of power to sexually abuse minors. We Mormons would NEVER do that!"
Yes, and I am not trying to contribute to that narrative of deflection. Christians must face these dual sins and attempt amends. None are immune.
"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18
Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?
Quote from: aitm on February 27, 2023, 12:18:09 PM"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18
Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?
They'd have to actually read the Bible to use that justification. Even when it's shown to them, they make excuses about how the Israelites were actually doing these girls a favor after murdering their entire families, so it doesn't really count. Of course, they try to read between the lines (ie make things up) by saying they totally didn't force themselves on these girls. I don't know about you, but nothing turns me on quite like watching my brothers, father, and mother chopped to death in front of me.
I agree with stephen fry that we should call it child rape. Sexual abuse somehow seems like downplaying the horrid crime that it is.
Look, dreamer, i imagine you are a good guy, all in all. (Relatively speaking, I don't think i am a good person, for starters. But that is a whole different conversation, and not a particularly interesting one at that.) And i can appreciate you preaching for love and understanding and opposing systemic child rape in religious orders. I can.
But i can't help but think that without validation of the concept of 'sin', and without the institution of religion, less of these transgressions in the whole would occur. Especially the gaybashing.
See, i don't think you are appaled of gaybashing and child rape because you are a christian. No more than i think another christian hates gays or thinks it is excusable to protect the church by hiding proof of child rape, because They are christian.
I believe christianity is such a broad umbrella-term that you can pick and choose to fit it to your needs. And honestly, if the bible or that umbrella term is your 'reason' to judge things as sins or as wrong, i don't see the average member of the westboro baptist church being less or more validated in their reasoning for their message of hate than you in your message of love.
Sorry.
Honestly, if the shitty Christians disappeared, I wouldn't give a crap about the other Christians. If a religious group doesn't create problems (as Republicans do), what they believe is their business. Unfortunately, the shitty Christians pretty much define the religion right now.
Quote from: aitm on February 27, 2023, 12:18:09 PM"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves". Numbers 31:18
Nothing says "God is Love" quite like allowing the men to take and rape little girls.....maybe that's why so many think it is okay eh?
That's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.
Beyond that the verse does not condone or even reference rape of women or girls, the Bible is not literal. The stories inform us about spiritual truths, not only about God and God's nature but also our own.
We live in a broken world. The Bible faces ugly realities, inviting us to consider the various viewpoints of the story and ponder the implications on our own lives.
And, we're directed to interpret Scripture through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as ourselves. That is to guide us from general misinterpretations.
Christians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMThat's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.
Typical xian, now completely making up shit to "clarify" what the babble "really meant to say". You'll make a fine preacher, lies, lies and more lies.
LOL. Pathetic.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMThat's not found there. The only reason virginity is referenced in that verse is because the women were sleeping with the Jewish soldiers and caused an epidemic.
Beyond that the verse does not condone or even reference rape of women or girls, the Bible is not literal. The stories inform us about spiritual truths, not only about God and God's nature but also our own.
We live in a broken world. The Bible faces ugly realities, inviting us to consider the various viewpoints of the story and ponder the implications on our own lives.
And, we're directed to interpret Scripture through the dual prisms of loving God and loving others as ourselves. That is to guide us from general misinterpretations.
Christians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 27, 2023, 01:09:31 PMOf course, they try to read between the lines (ie make things up) by saying they totally didn't force themselves on these girls.
You're better off just saying that the people who wrote the Bible were just ordinary people with their own biases, because you're going to have a hard time reconciling the worst parts of the Bible with your beliefs. Virgin girls were valued by these people because they were unused property to be claimed. They didn't like sharing women, unless they were prostitutes.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 01, 2023, 11:18:13 PMChristians also have Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to teach us-and to address our current condition. The problem is how easy it is to co-opt Jesus and Christianity to support whatever a person wishes. This is human nature and folly, but it does not mean that everything is open to any interpretation.
I agree with much of what you say about morals/ethics and the best way to treat our neighbors. But when it comes to the bible and Jesus you lose me. why? Because both of those are totally human constructs. There is no proof that any god exists and Jesus is simply a fiction. So, you can make both of those say what you want them to say--facts not needed. That would be like me building a defense of how I live based upon the sayings of Bugs Bunny--I can make him say whatever I need him to say.
Quote from: Dreamer on February 27, 2023, 11:33:06 AMChristianity has a long history of harming others, both in theory and practice. How do Christians reconcile this past (and, indeed, the current Christian theories and practices), in the context of actually following Christ?
How they reconcile it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
Quote from: aitm on March 02, 2023, 09:28:34 AMTypical xian, now completely making up shit to "clarify" what the babble "really meant to say". You'll make a fine preacher, lies, lies and more lies.
LOL. Pathetic.
The Bible is contextual; I don't know why you didn't read the nearby verses, but here you go...
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord's people."
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 02, 2023, 07:55:27 PMHow they reconcile it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
Yes, a great many do that. But that's the sinful path lined with misdeeds against our fellow humans. That is, the action is not Christian.
People know that they can use Christian language and others will often attribute good things to them. It's a wretched shorthand that leads to many wrongs.
The path is wide, the gate is narrow. Jesus knew many people would follow him in this superficial manner, veneering themselves in false piety. Jesus said, you shall know them by their fruits.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 02, 2023, 04:08:43 PMI agree with much of what you say about morals/ethics and the best way to treat our neighbors. But when it comes to the bible and Jesus you lose me. why? Because both of those are totally human constructs. There is no proof that any god exists and Jesus is simply a fiction. So, you can make both of those say what you want them to say--facts not needed. That would be like me building a defense of how I live based upon the sayings of Bugs Bunny--I can make him say whatever I need him to say.
That is the great freedom and great frustration of following God. If we're not vigilant and careful, we'll only be following ourselves behind the red curtain.
There are ways to interpret the Bible, referenced multiple times throughout. It's a two prism test, loving God and loving your neighbors. Anything that is not in line with that, cannot be a Christian action. Yet, we do all sin and fail in this. But we can grow, accept responsible, root out our weaknesses and wrong thinking--and Jesus also shared that there is more rejoicing over a sinner who changes than for the man who always makes right choices.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 03, 2023, 10:58:01 AMYes, a great many do that. But that's the sinful path lined with misdeeds against our fellow humans. That is, the action is not Christian.
This No True Scotsman stuff is wearing thin and is an indication that one values some sort of identity so much that one literally do no wrong within it. It's an obvious defense mechanism, and walking around the world with blinders on is no way to go through life.
The simple fact is that Christians do bad things, Muslims do bad things, atheists do bad things, etc. In any large group, there are bound to be sorts of problems. And not just that, but in large communities and especially in small, insular communities, this stuff often gets swept under the rug or disturbingly, guilt is transferred from the perpetrator to the victim for "doing harm to the organization".
The obvious solution is to call out such behavior and see to it that perpetrators are caught and punished. Crimes are deterred not by severity of punishment, but by the certainty of being caught, and perpetrators are more likely to be caught if people do not turn a blind eye to such behavior and report the crime asap rather than sitting on it or dismissing the accusation out of hand. This No True Scotsman stuff plays into the perpetrator's hands - the assumption that the group is too pious and pure for any of its members to engage in that sort of criminal behavior is a cloak that criminals use to cast off initial suspicion.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 03, 2023, 11:02:36 AMThat is the great freedom and great frustration of following God. If we're not vigilant and careful, we'll only be following ourselves behind the red curtain.
There are ways to interpret the Bible, referenced multiple times throughout. It's a two prism test, loving God and loving your neighbors. Anything that is not in line with that, cannot be a Christian action. Yet, we do all sin and fail in this. But we can grow, accept responsible, root out our weaknesses and wrong thinking--and Jesus also shared that there is more rejoicing over a sinner who changes than for the man who always makes right choices.
You have a way of dodging the point. I just told you that both god and jesus are fictions. Yet you ignore that and give me the drivel above. Whatever changes you made in your life was you and nothing else. I have made similar changes in my life and will probably make more, yet neither god nor jesus will figure into those changes. Only one thing can make you change you mind or actions--only one--and that is you. You don't need god, you don't need jesus--but you do need a mind capable of critical thinking and the christian mind is not capable of critical thinking.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 03, 2023, 10:52:22 AMThe Bible is contextual; I don't know why you didn't read the nearby verses, but here you go...
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord's people."
Men: Sleep with prostitutes. Get STDs.
"Well, now we HAVE to kill all the women in this city! Except the virgins. It would be a shame to waste them. Let's take them as plunder."
Totally justified. Umm... But weren't there other women who weren't virgins, but also weren't sleeping with Israelites? Like, umm... The ones married to their own men? Why were they killed? Could it be because they weren't as desirable, maybe?
If the CEO of Tesco was guilty of covering up child abuse, that person would be serving a custodial sentence and not be driven around in a bullet proof car.
We can't keep saying that shit rolls downhill. It starts at the top and those at the top normally take responsibility and pay the price for their organizations shortcomings... Why doesn't that EVER apply to religious organisations?
Bastards.
There's a special pass for religious organisations all the time everywhere.
We can without the fear of being called out, tell children to thank Jesus for feeding them.
We can without the fear of being called out, thank Allah for clean water.
We can without fear hold candlelit vigils for the victims of A B and C as long as there's a connection to a church or a God.
Why can't we without fear call out bullshit?
Why is there always someone in the background threatening us?
Religion in a nutshell. Threatening fearful people into submission since the day dot and happy to do so.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 03, 2023, 11:24:00 AMThis No True Scotsman stuff is wearing thin and is an indication that one values some sort of identity so much that one literally do no wrong within it. It's an obvious defense mechanism, and walking around the world with blinders on is no way to go through life.
The simple fact is that Christians do bad things, Muslims do bad things, atheists do bad things, etc. In any large group, there are bound to be sorts of problems. And not just that, but in large communities and especially in small, insular communities, this stuff often gets swept under the rug or disturbingly, guilt is transferred from the perpetrator to the victim for "doing harm to the organization".
The obvious solution is to call out such behavior and see to it that perpetrators are caught and punished. Crimes are deterred not by severity of punishment, but by the certainty of being caught, and perpetrators are more likely to be caught if people do not turn a blind eye to such behavior and report the crime asap rather than sitting on it or dismissing the accusation out of hand. This No True Scotsman stuff plays into the perpetrator's hands - the assumption that the group is too pious and pure for any of its members to engage in that sort of criminal behavior is a cloak that criminals use to cast off initial suspicion.
I've referenced this sentiment, when I mentioned how Christianity can so easily be used as a shorthand for 'good person.'
I am aware of the dangers of this fallacious thinking, and that is why I draw the point to the action itself not being in line with Christ. (No True Scotsman doesn't apply, as I am making no call on the identity of the person. Rather that they are failing to act in accordance with being a 'Little Jesus.')
Following Christ calls for much more than we can do-of course, Christians sin! Evil thrives in the darkness, and you are very right in pointing out the solution of shining the light on this problem.
When someone claims they've changed yet cannot admit to any of their past misdeeds, they have blanketed the truth in their minds.
I have spent far more time considering this crime and the criminal than I should. I struggle with it and am greatly troubled at the turbulence I've faced within myself.
Childhood trauma affects the brain in ways that trauma in adulthood does not. I am extremely resilient, yet my needs to withdraw and recooperate, my panic attacks, my shifting memory--those weaknesses I face again and again. Tbh, my experiences of Christianity growing up really broke me.. I was taught for years that my virginity was my most sacred gift, and what a treasured thing to give to my future husband. To be pure, set apart. I heard this for years before I learned what it meant. And as I learned its meaning, it dawned on me that I didn't have it. I was angry and ashamed. I was trapped for years in victimhood. I finally began crawling out of that pit when I left all faith and belief in God behind and renounced Christianity. I made more progress later as I opened myself back to my spirituality.
These things aren't hypothetical to me. I was not abused by the ministry/clergy, but Christianity was used and abused repeatedly to justify evil.
I cannot count the messages I heard about virginity, growing up in the church. But a message against sexual abuse? The pastor telling the congregation that it's a sin to hit your wife and children? Never. Not even once. Not once in person, on tv, in a magazine, online.....
That's messed up, especially when there's butts in pews pretending that they're great because they're not gay, and they managed to drag themselves from a drunken stupor to come in that Sunday after abusing your children that same morning... The hypocrisy has been pointed out by outsiders for years, yet rarely from within.
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 27, 2023, 01:09:31 PMThey'd have to actually read the Bible to use that justification.
This is literally verbatim what I thought when I read aitm's post...
If the Bible were literal, I'd be very upset about this...
So, the Israelites are seduced by women to sleep with them. These women then want the Israelites to worship their gods, which they do. Israelites suffer a plague from the women; they're supposed to kill all the men and a number of the women. But, they're only supposed to kill the women who weren't virgins, because they seduced the Israelites and led them to false worship.
This is all sorts of fucked up, if it's literal. From the viewpoint of a parable, allegory, or similar story, it can be applied to life today (that application part is pretty much the whole point in having and reading a Bible...).
When we commit sexual sins and spiritual sins, we have to root it out and eliminate it fully within ourselves. We can't try to save parts that are tainted because we like them, nor is it correct to destroy the blameless parts (i.e., the virgins who were saved).
This is an interpretation that applies today, that satisfies how we are to interpret Scripture. It is not THE interpretation or ultimate meaning, as Christ ministers to us all according to our measures of faith.
Quote from: M on March 03, 2023, 06:12:58 PMThere's a special pass for religious organisations all the time everywhere.
(...)
Why can't we without fear call out bullshit?
Why is there always someone in the background threatening us?
Religion in a nutshell. Threatening fearful people into submission since the day dot and happy to do so.
Christ called us into relationship, out of that fear.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It would be nice if doing the right thing were accompanied by the chiming of bells or an uplifting soundtrack or something to let us know we're on the right path. In this world, the right path can be fraught with insults and even death threats...
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on February 27, 2023, 01:37:51 PMLook, dreamer, i imagine you are a good guy, all in all. (Relatively speaking, I don't think i am a good person, for starters. But that is a whole different conversation, and not a particularly interesting one at that.) And i can appreciate you preaching for love and understanding and opposing systemic child rape in religious orders. I can.
But i can't help but think that without validation of the concept of 'sin', and without the institution of religion, less of these transgressions in the whole would occur. Especially the gaybashing.
See, i don't think you are appaled of gaybashing and child rape because you are a christian. No more than i think another christian hates gays or thinks it is excusable to protect the church by hiding proof of child rape, because They are christian.
I believe christianity is such a broad umbrella-term that you can pick and choose to fit it to your needs. And honestly, if the bible or that umbrella term is your 'reason' to judge things as sins or as wrong, i don't see the average member of the westboro baptist church being less or more validated in their reasoning for their message of hate than you in your message of love.
Sorry.
The Westboro Baptist Church choose to interpret Scripture to support their own moral decisions, rather than seeking to align themselves with Christ. That is, their own actions run counter to the Bible. While it's not literal and there are multiple interpretations of the Bible, you can identify some viewpoints as incongruous with the Bible and therefore invalid. The Westboro Baptist Church has as much regard for following Biblical principal as a Satanist.
In regards to what kind of person I am, I'm better than some and worse than others. I actively work at doing the right (loving) thing, rooting out my own darkness so the Light destroys it.
But, when it comes to gay people... The stance of gays being abominations was hammered in often, and I truly believed it. Church teaching dictated my words and deeds. While I didn't call people names or physically hurt anyone, I did say hurtful things like how they're living in sin, abominations, etc. I can recognize that as sinful now, but I was convinced that it was correct at the time. Many Christians are sincere, only some use Christianity as a veil. And it's those sincere people that are changeable and can grow to see their own sin and correct it.
I don't know anyone who speaks up in support of child abuse. Yet, I also don't know anyone who speaks up against it. And we need people to do that, especially in places where we know that cancer grows in darkness (as in the case with churches and child sexual abuse..).
The key phrase here Dreamer, is "they chose to interpret", just like you are doing. You suggest there are passages in the babble that mean exactly that...but then they are those which you think need your interpretation to make them more palatable for you. Therein lies the big hookery. You are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive. You live in your own made up world...but you go girl.....dream on.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on February 27, 2023, 01:37:51 PMI agree with stephen fry that we should call it child rape. Sexual abuse somehow seems like downplaying the horrid crime that it is.
There is a point there.. I have several reasons that I call it child sexual abuse....
Csa covers more violations without needing to point out disturbing distinctions. But mostly, it's because of what comes up in me. It's much bigger to call it rape, even when that is clearly what it is. Many rape victims have difficulty with the terms and will acknowledge sexual abuse long before acknowledging that it was rape. Sometimes that word can feel like another violation, and even though it's one word versus three, it is somehow much easier to use the longer term...
Quote from: aitm on March 04, 2023, 02:42:08 PMThe key phrase here Dreamer, is "they chose to interpret", just like you are doing. You suggest there are passages in the babble that mean exactly that...but then they are those which you think need your interpretation to make them more palatable for you. Therein lies the big hookery. You are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive. You live in your own made up world...but you go girl.....dream on.
I think it's all not literal. I'm just leaving the space for the possibility that something could be; I just really doubt it based on the rest of the Bible. Besides, if it were all literal, it would apply to the dead, not me...
I am a heretic. Just like Jesus.
QuoteYou are already a heretic for trying to "disclaim" what the babble actually says in favor of something less offensive.
Why would an atheist care?
As for what the Bible says, I don't really find "Feed the poor, house the homeless, give to the needy, embrace the refugee, love thy neighbor." to be all that offensive - I'm a bit concerned if anyone does find it so, though our GOP certainly makes a great argument that they would find it so.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 04, 2023, 02:48:53 PMI think it's all not literal. I'm just leaving the space for the possibility that something could be; I just really doubt it based on the rest of the Bible. Besides, if it were all literal, it would apply to the dead, not me...
I am a heretic. Just like Jesus.
Ah, In the OP you take great pains to identify yourself as a Christian, and now you admit....meh, I follow some of it, the rest is pretty wishy washy...just like jesus was going to say....someday.
Quote from: aitm on March 04, 2023, 04:16:19 PMAh, In the OP you take great pains to identify yourself as a Christian, and now you admit....meh, I follow some of it, the rest is pretty wishy washy...just like jesus was going to say....someday.
I've not admitted any such thing. I follow Jesus' teachings, which are in opposition to a number of church practices. Therefore, heretical.
Jesus had major issues with many religious leaders of the day and church practices.
But if you're saying that I don't follow Jewish law, you're right! I don't live and die by the law. God cares about what's in my heart, more than what's on my body or what's in my stomach... Or someone's butt, for that matter....
My job is as simple and as complex as loving. There's always a path forward, in alignment with Christ. That's what I am concerned with-not following lists of rules that, at the very least, are only sometimes literal, and at the most, are never literal...
I follow the guide that Jesus gave several times, about loving God and likewise loving others as ourselves. This is why I call myself a Christian because I endeavor to be a Little Christ.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 04, 2023, 05:14:13 PMI've not admitted any such thing. I follow Jesus' teachings, which are in opposition to a number of church practices. Therefore, heretical.
Jesus had major issues with many religious leaders of the day and church practices.
But if you're saying that I don't follow Jewish law, you're right! I don't live and die by the law. God cares about what's in my heart, more than what's on my body or what's in my stomach... Or someone's butt, for that matter....
My job is as simple and as complex as loving. There's always a path forward, in alignment with Christ. That's what I am concerned with-not following lists of rules that, at the very least, are only sometimes literal, and at the most, are never literal...
I follow the guide that Jesus gave several times, about loving God and likewise loving others as ourselves. This is why I call myself a Christian because I endeavor to be a Little Christ.
Oh come on....9th paragraph of your OP, not surprised you already " forgot". And by the bay...no where in the babble does god suggest he cares about what is in your" heart", now you're just embarrassing yourself. God wrote his laws. Period. Jesus proclaimed the laws of the prophet will not be abolished or altered by a "dot or tittle". For Christ sake if you want to pretend to be a nut job at least read the recipe. Stop calling yourself a Christian at least...say you're a Cheeto Jesus kinda follower except for all the...you know..rules. Then people will understand yer just a wack job.
Quote from: aitm on March 04, 2023, 08:50:46 PMAnd by the bay...no where in the babble does god suggest he cares about what is in your" heart", now you're just embarrassing yourself.
First of all, I had just gotten that Down By the Bay song out of my head, so thanks for that.
As well, I was once again drawing specifically upon the Bible:
But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7
Walking in faith, seeking to have a pure heart--that is indeed Biblical. Besides that Christ says clearly that all the Law and Prophets depend upon loving God and loving others, there's also this from Galatians 3. It's lengthy, and in line with my own ruminations and beliefs I have shared, that you call me a Cheeto Xian for...:
Tell me this one thing: did you receive God's Spirit by doing what the Law requires or by hearing the gospel and believing it? How can you be so foolish! You began by God's Spirit; do you now want to finish by your own power? Did all your experience mean nothing at all? Surely it meant something! Does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do what the Law requires or because you hear the gospel and believe it?
Consider the experience of Abraham; as the scripture says, "He believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous." You should realize, then, that the real descendants of Abraham are the people who have faith. The scripture predicted that God would put the Gentiles right with himself through faith. And so the scripture announced the Good News to Abraham: "Through you God will bless all people." Abraham believed and was blessed; so all who believe are blessed as he was.
Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God's curse!" Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, "Only the person who is put right with God through faith shall live." But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, "Whoever does everything the Law requires will live."
But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings
...
Quote from: aitm on March 04, 2023, 08:50:46 PMOh come on....9th paragraph of your OP, not surprised you already " forgot".
If you knew me in real life, you'd be less surprised that I forgot something... So, I tried to refresh myself, but still do not see what you're referring to. So, I don't think I actually forgot this one, in reality or 'reality.' You're welcome to point out where I am not in line with following Christ. You're welcome to also point out where I deviate from church doctrine, sure, but I am not concerned with being in accordance with others. Right is right no matter how few do it, and wrong is wrong no matter how many are doing it. There's a much better Quaker quote about that, but the sentiment is the same: Right and wrong do not rely on followers' choices.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 02, 2023, 03:57:54 PMYou're better off just saying that the people who wrote the Bible were just ordinary people with their own biases (...)
I've said that before (IRL; I don't think on here). Yes, the people who wrote the Bible were ordinary people with their own biases, acting upon spiritual guidance. They were divinely inspired by God, but they were still just normal folks.
I am aware of the Nicean Councils, the persecution of Christians using texts not approved by the 'Church,' etc. This created a skewed view that certainly affects how Christians function today. Attacking homosexuals for misdeeds pointed out about leaders of the Church was escapist gold for the immoral teachers. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate, to transfer the hatred for such a horrid act, onto a smaller, oft marginalized, group of people (Let's forget about the pedophile leaders in the church using their positions of trust and focus on the real problem... Butt sex!)
People can be divinely inspired, but they will still be rooted in their experiences, their vantage points, their pieces of the puzzle, their ignorance, their doubts, their understanding... The idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is a human idea, not from the Word itself... Besides the Bible shares, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." God still speaks to us, today, even now. To us ordinary people, filled with our own biases, faults, weaknesses.
God speaks to us all. Everyone reading this. Jew, Christian, atheist--God can and does reach out to us all. But, we can ignore it, reject it, and miss it entirely..
I'm receptive to God's guidance and instruction in my life, and I work to cultivate stillness and silence to help in that capacity. I seek out God in Scriptures, books, other people. I'm therefore unlikely to ignore or reject God's guidance in my life.
I don't think it's a requirement, though, to be searching in order to directly experience God. I think of Saul/Paul who was all for arresting and murdering Christians, yet he encountered God on his journey of persecution, and he was changed.
It's not about following the Law, it's not even about holiness or goodness. I am freed in Christ. I do not have my past as an albatross about my neck, nor do I have fear of the future. I have wholeness and completeness, relationship, a wellspring of love and unity, that is perpetually available to me.
Bugs Bunny speaks to me and through me. And he speaks to you, if you would only listen. He is the driver of the universe and all that he created is good. He has freed me from the material world and shown me the great carrot! Love one another and share your carrots. Ah, what's up doc....................
Indeed, god speaks to everyone, including his soldiers commanded to murder everyone but take the young girls to enslave and rape as they wish. Spread your paisley blanket over the pile of shit you wish to hide from, but the smell is still there. How do you ignore that? Maybe coke up the nose...who knows?
Quote from: aitm on March 05, 2023, 05:34:27 PMIndeed, god speaks to everyone, including his soldiers commanded to murder everyone but take the young girls to enslave and rape as they wish. Spread your paisley blanket over the pile of shit you wish to hide from, but the smell is still there. How do you ignore that? Maybe coke up the nose...who knows?
You're really attached to this idea that the Bible is how you perceive it. Almost as rigid as the Christians who believe we lived with the dinosaurs, based somehow on the Bible. What makes you the authority, I wonder?
I'd mention again how it's not literal, but that's much harder to grapple with, eh?
Quote from: Dreamer on March 05, 2023, 10:10:00 PMYou're really attached to this idea that the Bible is how you perceive it. Almost as rigid as the Christians who believe we lived with the dinosaurs, based somehow on the Bible. What makes you the authority, I wonder?
I'd mention again how it's not literal, but that's much harder to grapple with, eh?
Is it totally allegorical, or is there history to it?
One doesn't need to be an authority on the babble. One only needs to read it. Either it is the word of god or not. You use parts that you claim ensure that god is love and ignore all the rest about his laws given as HIS LAWS. What makes you think you can ignore the entirety of the babble except snippets you present as flowers and kittens? Where does god claim his laws are literal? Point out the verse where god say these laws are only suggestions? Where? Where does god, in the Old Testament claim is is about love and not vengeance and jealousy? God claims he is a jealous and vengeful god. And proves it with his orders to kill innocent people, despite your unsubstantiated and quite bat-shit crazy story that the soldiers were getting VD from the women they raped and therefore had the right to kill them? Jesus, that's some fucked up Nazi style thinking there. Where does it say that? God ordered the enslavement and rape of children, period. Ever read the latter part of Leviticus where he gives a hundred different ways to sacrifice animals for "sins? It's bat shit crazy, like the rest of the bat shit crazy book. But you...hell you look at the title and proclaim god is love but never examine the contents. Did you get you profound beliefs from coloring books?
You're making things up that aren't there. I've shared the verses about that, yet you can't yield that your understanding was wrong? Your insults are ironic, and, as usual, what we say about others has far more to do with ourselves than anyone else.
Matthew 13:34
"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitudes in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them."
"The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
"'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 05, 2023, 11:02:21 PMIs it totally allegorical, or is there history to it?
Like most deeper writings, history is of course referenced.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 06, 2023, 12:05:58 PMLike most deeper writings, history is of course referenced.
Is Jesus' story history or allegory?
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 06, 2023, 08:04:46 PMIs Jesus' story history or allegory?
Even the history shared is for the spiritual meaning, similar to ouroboros.
Beyond that, there are literally hundreds of books written on considering if Jesus was a historical person or not. My answer thus lacks subtlety, nuance, or supporting evidence-not because they don't exist, but rather because they are plethora and better handled by those driven to answer such questions. That is, for a more satisfying answer, I can point you to books exploring this idea.
I can tell you that to read the Bible as a science or history text is likely to not only frustrate and trouble the reader, but such an approach also convolutes meaning.
Jesus compared the Kingdom of God to a mustard seed that when planted grows bigger than all the rest, a giant tree for birds to roost upon. The seed is described as the smallest of seeds in at least one of the versions.
Literalists freak out about this. Smallest seed? But we've found smaller seeds! Oh, but those smaller seeds weren't really seeds because they lacked all the proper parts. Then there's the problem of the mustard plant... They tend to grow about 3 feet tall or so, certainly not the giant tree supporting a large ecosystem that Jesus referenced. Ohhh, Jesus really meant some obscure tree that grows very tall and has very small trees. Etc.
Yet mustard plants were/are common and wild in ancient Israel (the US, too), were known for relatively tiny seeds, and were known to grow to about 3 feet. Jesus is accepting that expectation because the plant was so common in the area he was preaching... But our expectations, the reality of the mustard plant parable, is mangled if we jump through hoops to assert that the mustard plant was really some giant tree and not mustard at all .. The mustard seed parable says the Kingdom of God is like planting a seed, expecting a shrub at best, and getting a huge tree that attracts birds and supports a great deal of life.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 06, 2023, 11:46:31 AMYou're making things up that aren't there. I've shared the verses about that, yet you can't yield that your understanding was wrong? Your insults are ironic, and, as usual, what we say about others has far more to do with ourselves than anyone else.
No. You are making up things that are not there. Your approach is the whole babble is parables to convince yourself that literal has no place as it makes it uncomfortable to justify the reality.
The OT does not have parables. Those are gods laws, period.
Jesus says he is here to enforce the laws of the prophets, I.e., same shit.
You do consider a few examples and proclaim, it is all parables. It is easy to spot them, yabbering on about fig trees, falling sparrows, mustard seeds...blah blah.
It is not a parable when Jesus talks about divorce.
It is not a parable when Jesus says specifically you can move a mountain if you have the faith of a mustard seed.
It is not a parable when Jesus says whoever does not accept the kingdom of heaven as a little child shall not enter it.
It is not a parable when the babble says the time is so short that those who are married should act as if they are not.
It is not a parable when jesus tells family members to turn their backs on each other if they fail to adhere to the law.
You have a little book full of cute and flowery feel good parables and ignore the entirety of the rest of the babble.
You do not get a pass to roam around here, spouting cherry picked verses, saying, "oh, you don't understand it", and go blabbering about shit that was written by "hundreds of other people". How the hell does that even relate? Other people making up excuses to cover the asinine stupidity of the babble in no way proves the babble is not asinine stupidity. Get over yourself. Go back to the net, look for a safe spot like, www.webelieveinonlythegoodpartsofthebiblethatwecaneailymakeexcusesfor.com. And there you will find like "minded" people who share your delusion.
So determined to form God to your own understanding, based on your interpretation of Scripture...
It's funny how all the crap you're attacking me for is exactly how the early church was attacked. You must have the Bible mean what you want, or you lose your self-appointed high ground. A modern-day Pharisee!
I've addressed every verse brought up, which have certainly been cherry picked to show the worst you could find. But you reject it. Why? I suppose it must be that you have some divine inspiration that tells you I'm wrong. No? It's just your own wishes? Okay.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 07, 2023, 12:00:55 PMI've addressed every verse brought up, which have certainly been cherry picked to show the worst you could find. But you reject it. Why? I suppose it must be that you have some divine inspiration that tells you I'm wrong. No? It's just your own wishes? Okay.
No, Dreamer, that is what you do. You picked a bible and then you interpret it as you see fit. You see, there is no 'The Bible'. No, it did not drop from heaven fully formed. It was a document created from a huge number of writings and then arraigned in the order they wished the writings to be presented. Christians destroyed the writings they did not want to include. About 85 'books' were in existence at one time or another. The ones that were deemed not good or not correct were destroyed; we know of those 85 (probably more) because they are named in one church 'father' or another's writings. Today, there is still not 'the bible', but versions. And each 'version' is different one from the other. You are the one cherry picking not only your version, but what each line means to you. You seem to hold yourself as the expert of what these 'parables' mean or what they teach. What anybody else says matters not to you.
I also find it very odd that your 'word of god' was found only in one small spot on the globe, written in one language--and not a very common one, at that--and in one time frame. Would not a universal god have been able to have his word produced in the common language of all the people of the world and to have it appear every place on Earth?? If one could find the bible to have appeared everywhere and in the language of that area, that would be a very powerful argument that god was real. But the opposite has happened. It is a regional set of writings and not universal at all.
You are free, of course, to believe as you wish. But do not tell me that you are right and I am wrong. You have not presented a single 'fact' that shows that god exists or even that Jesus exists. Your entire argument is that what you believe has to be right and what I think has to be wrong. You do have some good ideas about love and society--but it has nothing to do with your fictional god or jesus; I don't need either to live a moral or ethical life.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 07, 2023, 11:57:30 AMSo determined to form God to your own understanding, based on your interpretation of Scripture...
It's funny how all the crap you're attacking me for is exactly how the early church was attacked. You must have the Bible mean what you want, or you lose your self-appointed high ground. A modern-day Pharisee!
Therein or herein, lies the problem. Either: the babble is the word of god...or it isn't. If it is the word of god it says what it means and it means what it says. There is no "interpretation". You claim the babble HAS to be correctly "interpreted"....by who? Just the believers?
No. The babble is proclaimed to be the WORD OF GOD. Period.
Why do xians eat pork when the LAW says not to? Economics. As the word of the loving Jesus spread by the sword and gun-not much love there....it was easier to allow communities heavy in pork produce to "convert" without giving up their stable economy...and a lot easier than killing them all, after all, they helped pay for the preacher. Same for those who made a living with clams and oysters and shrimp. The word of god was suddenly....er...questionable....but okay as long as you paid the priest.
It is YOU who have abandoned the word of god in favor of a more lenient god. That god does not exist, even if you interpret the babble no matter how hard you try. The babble is clear, follow the rules, period. You choose to ignore those and think you get a side door pass to "heaven". It does not work that way...the babble says so. But hey! You do you. But stop the horse shit in our house. Go somewhere else and dance through the isles throwing rose petals. You will get no reprieve here.
Jesus fulfilled the law, as you already pointed out in a relevant verse.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
I am not called to walk that path of death and sin. I follow Jesus, and I am under no obligation to fulfill the church's perversion of what that means-nor, indeed, anyone else's.
Look, Dreamer, if you believe in human sacrifice then fine, but please don't expect me, or the others on this forum to believe in it, or to praise the evil monster who made it happen. And the God of the Bible is, indeed, evil, and I can prove that with "scripture" if you force me to.
Or you could just click on the link at the bottom of all my posts and look at "What the Bible's God is Really Like." If you do that you can see for yourself just how monstrous that horrible fiction is. It's in the section about the Bible, easy to find.
Again Dreamer, you are welcome to wander about throwing flowers and bullshit claims anywhere else. But not here. We have been more than generous in our patience, but your lies are tiring, and they are lies. That is our position. You are of course free to make your own decisions, and we will make ours. But your time here seems to be running its course. Perhaps a site more gullible, er....more in line with your particular delusion would be a better fit for you.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 02, 2023, 07:55:27 PMHow they reconcile it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
DARVO That one is new to me. What it actual is... is not new to me. I just never knew of the acronym.
Quote from: aitm on March 07, 2023, 09:51:34 PM(...) your lies are tiring, and they are lies. (...)
This is troubling. What is it you claim I have lied?
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 07, 2023, 12:47:32 PMYou have not presented a single 'fact' that shows that god exists or even that Jesus exists.
Correct. This is not what I am addressing, not the subject of anything I've written here.
Rather, I am addressing the Christian dogma that is not only against what Jesus calls us to do, but it's not even Biblical! The Bible teaches against child rape. The Bible teaches God hates child molesters, not gay people. Rape is an abomination. That men who are spiritual leaders over young boys should not have sexual relationship with those children! They are particularly disgusting and depraved.
I'm aware of how the Bible was formed 😂 It's divinely inspired, not some text impervious to human deceit, narration, and outright sabotage. I'm likewise interested in all Bible books that are discovered, that had been tossed aside by self-righteous, scared men. And, since God continues to speak to us and teach us even now, I find much worthwhile in various spiritual leaders' words and writings as well.
As to you not needing belief in God for a moral or ethical life, that is undoubtedly true.
God is love; if you have known love, you have known God. Just like the force of gravity works upon us all without any regard for our beliefs, so is God.
Edited to correct the word sabotage because auto-correct isn't always correct..
Quote from: Dreamer on March 11, 2023, 06:21:52 PMCorrect. This is not what I am addressing, not the subject of anything I've written here.
Rather, I am addressing the Christian dogma that is not only against what Jesus calls us to do, but it's not even Biblical! The Bible teaches against child rape. The Bible teaches God hates child molesters, not gay people. Rape is an abomination. That men who are spiritual leaders over young boys should not have sexual relationship with those children! They are particularly disgusting and depraved.
I'm aware of how the Bible was formed 😂 It's divinely inspired, not some text impervious to human deceit, narration, and outright sabotage. I'm likewise interested in all Bible books that are discovered, that had been tossed aside by self-righteous, scared men. And, since God continues to speak to us and teach us even now, I find much worthwhile in various spiritual leaders' words and writings as well.
As to you not needing belief in God for a moral or ethical life, that is undoubtedly true.
God is love; if you have known love, you have known God. Just like the force of gravity works upon us all without any regard for our beliefs, so is God.
Edited to correct the word sabotage because auto-correct isn't always correct..
The bible (all versions) is as divinely inspired as is the words of Bugs Bunny. Anyway, as delusional as your beliefs are, they are yours and critical thinking will not change those beliefs. If that is what gets you through the night then go for it. Just do not expect me to pay much attention to your blathering.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 11, 2023, 06:21:52 PMGod is love; if you have known love, you have known God. Just like the force of gravity works upon us all without any regard for our beliefs, so is God.
Edited to correct the word sabotage because auto-correct isn't always correct..
Poor ole omnipotent god. Full of love, but kills everyone because he won't show them his love. Kinda like being the greatest baker in the universe...tells everyone his bread is da bomb, but won't supply any to anyone, then kills them all for not believing it. On the bright side, no one will confuse you for someone who has rational thought.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2023, 04:01:01 PMPoor ole omnipotent god. Full of love, but kills everyone because he won't show them his love. Kinda like being the greatest baker in the universe...tells everyone his bread is da bomb, but won't supply any to anyone, then kills them all for not believing it. On the bright side, no one will confuse you for someone who has rational thought.
Unless I'm mistaken, Dreamer doesn't believe that unbelievers automatically go to Hell, simply for not picking the right religion.
Quite a lot of people don't get to pick a religion but have a religion imposed on them by their parents/guardians/community and are badly mistreated if they don't go along with it.
But many theists do believe that anyone who does not believe in their particular brand of crazy are indeed hell-bound because their God is very jealous.
Picking no god is infinitely safer than picking the wrong one.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2023, 04:01:01 PMOn the bright side, no one will confuse you for someone who has rational thought.
This, my friend, is quite a relief to me. Thanks!
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 22, 2023, 01:57:07 AMUnless I'm mistaken, Dreamer doesn't believe that unbelievers automatically go to Hell, simply for not picking the right religion.
Indeed I do not, and I'm Biblically supported ...
"God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:15-16
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. - Matthew 7:21
Popular Christian culture is prone to self-righteous and self-serving dogmas that rarely align with Scriptures. Toss in a dose of schadenfreude, and you find people delighting in the idea of eternal punishment for those who aren't like them... People thirst for justice, and, to many, it appears that the idea of eternal damnation will quench them,..
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 22, 2023, 11:29:57 AMQuite a lot of people don't get to pick a religion but have a religion imposed on them by their parents/guardians/community and are badly mistreated if they don't go along with it.
But many theists do believe that anyone who does not believe in their particular brand of crazy are indeed hell-bound because their God is very jealous.
Theists are first and foremost fallible people. It's the theists who deny that fact who are the most dangerous, and more apt to sprinkle condemnation on everyone around them.
It is a tantalizing idea, that the score could be evened, the wrongs done against you revenged...
I think it's more about Jesus" final pleas with God, to forgive the people murdering him because they didn't know what they were doing. I think that one day the people who have harmed me, will come to know what they have done, and they will need to grapple with the weight of violations. This seems to me most likely a thing of fancy more than a spiritual truth, but it does stem from Jesus' prayer of forgiveness for the truly ignorant.
If we really knew that we were hurting ourselves when we harm another, we wouldn't be so cavalier. And we'd probably not do it at all...
Quote from: aitm on March 23, 2023, 08:30:09 AMPicking no god is infinitely safer than picking the wrong one.
(https://cdn.thecollector.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/evil-god-loviatar-goddess-sampo-art-e1601660786186.jpg?width=1400&quality=55)
Loviatar the Goddess of Death, Pain, and Disease seems a peach...
Safety has never seemed much attainable to me and easily taken away...
Quote from: Dreamer on March 28, 2023, 11:48:05 PMIndeed I do not, and I'm Biblically supported ...
"God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:15-16
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. - Matthew 7:21
Popular Christian culture is prone to self-righteous and self-serving dogmas that rarely align with Scriptures. Toss in a dose of schadenfreude, and you find people delighting in the idea of eternal punishment for those who aren't like them... People thirst for justice, and, to many, it appears that the idea of eternal damnation will quench them,..
There are verses which say salvation is based on faith alone, and there are others that say good works are required. It all depends on which verses you choose to cherry-pick.
I will agree with you that there is no egotism like Christian humbleness, however. Look at me. I am so humble. I'm just a sinner saved by grace. I once was blind, but now I see, unlike the rest of you idiots. Everything is backwards. Hate is love, lies are truth, oppression is freedom. They literally live in a backwards reality where their pastor can tell them anything is good or evil, and they'll bend over backwards to explain how Biblical slavery actually wasn't that bad.
Quote from: Dreamer on March 28, 2023, 11:48:05 PMIndeed I do not, and I'm Biblically supported ...
"God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:15-16
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. - Matthew 7:21
Supporting a position by quoting the Bible in an atheist forum. What's wrong with this picture?
Funny how xians, many of them blame Jews for killing jebus, oddly unaware that without that action the whole of their religion would not exist.
Jebus wasn't sacrificed, ffs he got upgraded from a smelly liberal desert wanderer to a god. Seems like a pretty good deal.
Jesus is just the son of God. He is just a fictional secondary distraction for those of us who are still looking for evidence of the creator of all things. I don't know what all the fuss is about Jesus. Go directly to the source, if it exists at all, and then write a real Bible using the actual facts.
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2023, 07:02:35 AMFunny how xians, many of them blame Jews for killing jebus, oddly unaware that without that action the whole of their religion would not exist.
Jebus wasn't sacrificed, ffs he got upgraded from a smelly liberal desert wanderer to a god. Seems like a pretty good deal.
The earliest Gospel, Mark, doesn't even seem to imply that Jesus is the Son of God. It doesn't mention the miraculous virgin birth, it has very few miracles, and Jesus never claims (and actually contradicts the idea) that he was the Son of God.
"Why do you call me good? There are none who are good except God."
Mark's Jesus dies on the cross, confused about why God was allowing him to go through such suffering. A far cry from the Super Jesus of later Gospels.
The idea that Jesus was a sacrifice doesn't even make sense. A sacrifice was made from people to God, giving up something of worth as a form of repentance. Who offered up Jesus as a sacrifice? Umm... God? Who was he offered to? Uhh... God? How does that make any sense? Was God repenting to himself? It's nonsense.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 29, 2023, 02:06:15 AMThere are verses which say salvation is based on faith alone, and there are others that say good works are required. It all depends on which verses you choose to cherry-pick.
I will agree with you that there is no egotism like Christian humbleness, however. Look at me. I am so humble. I'm just a sinner saved by grace. I once was blind, but now I see, unlike the rest of you idiots. Everything is backwards. Hate is love, lies are truth, oppression is freedom. They literally live in a backwards reality where their pastor can tell them anything is good or evil, and they'll bend over backwards to explain how Biblical slavery actually wasn't that bad.
You're right that there are Christians who do that. That is the church I was raised in for my early years.
My backwoods Southern Baptist church taught me many awful things, in opposition to how we're instructed to live our lives and interpret the Bible (that is, everything rests upon loving God and loving others, as repeatedly referenced).
The mark of Cain, who murdered his brother and was banished? I was taught that was why there are black people!
Christianity is not an easy path because we're called to love with all our hearts, minds, and souls. Anyone sowing seeds of pain is not in line with following God. Dogmatic thinking will consistently impede good works.
However, I do not know what verses you reference about good works being required. I can think of about a dozen verses that say how no one can earn by good works-that day the exact opposite of what you said. If good works were required, then Jesus would not have forgiven the murderer hanging beside him.
Quote from: SGOS on March 29, 2023, 06:56:45 AMSupporting a position by quoting the Bible in an atheist forum. What's wrong with this picture?
You inspired me to make a present, which I now give you here in the Christianity forum:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMcHGcGZ/Screenshot-20230309-233755-2.png)
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 29, 2023, 01:40:27 PMMark's Jesus dies on the cross, confused about why God was allowing him to go through such suffering. A far cry from the Super Jesus of later Gospels.
What makes you think Jesus was confused?
As far as Jesus asking the man why he called Jesus good, this calls the man to consider what is good, who Jesus is, and what the man should do with his answers. That is, while I cannot and do not outright dismiss your interpretation, that is far from the only possibility. It seems more in line with Jesus' tendency to use questions when teaching.
Quote from: SGOS on March 29, 2023, 10:47:54 AMJesus is just the son of God. He is just a fictional secondary distraction for those of us who are still looking for evidence of the creator of all things. I don't know what all the fuss is about Jesus. Go directly to the source, if it exists at all, and then write a real Bible using the actual facts.
What would going directly to the source entail?
I smile thinking about how many people reject a plethora of solid, scientific facts, and then juxtaposing that with the extremely messy spiritual metaphysical world of 'facts' ...
I'd wager such a bible would have about the same or worse of a reception as the Bible.
(This may need editing. My nighttime meds are kicking in, and I often become more loquacious but less err cohesive/coherent.)
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2023, 09:22:16 PMWhat makes you think Jesus was confused?
As far as Jesus asking the man why he called Jesus good, this calls the man to consider what is good, who Jesus is, and what the man should do with his answers. That is, while I cannot and do not outright dismiss your interpretation, that is far from the only possibility. It seems more in line with Jesus' tendency to use questions when teaching.
Jesus' words on the cross in Mark were, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" He sounds pretty out of the loop to me.
Yeah, that's the typical apologetic explanation, but there's nothing in the text to suggest Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek about his response. This interpretation is based on the assumption that the Bible is meant to be read as a single unit. In reality, the anonymous authors of Matthew and John had the gospel of Mark in front of them and decided to "correct it" by inserting their own biases into the text. They added Jesus' miraculous origin story, his resurrection, many additional miracles, and changed a variety of details to serve the political agendas of their time. They made their Super Jesus into almost an entirely different character.
Funny fact is that the gospel of Mark, without the last 12 verses that were added later, would have 666 verses. 😆
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 30, 2023, 03:03:14 AMJesus' words on the cross in Mark were, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" He sounds pretty out of the loop to me.
Yeah, that's the typical apologetic explanation, but there's nothing in the text to suggest Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek about his response. This interpretation is based on the assumption that the Bible is meant to be read as a single unit. In reality, the anonymous authors of Matthew and John had the gospel of Mark in front of them and decided to "correct it" by inserting their own biases into the text. They added Jesus' miraculous origin story, his resurrection, many additional miracles, and changed a variety of details to serve the political agendas of their time. They made their Super Jesus into almost an entirely different character.
For sure, we have always fought against powers and principalities. People are capable, and intended for, great things through love. It's the disconnection between that need instilled within us, and the realities and fears of the world that leads to much of our suffering.
Christianity was for the people. It heralded a paradigm shift, revolution, anti-racism, anti-establishment. That's a real problem for people in power who seek injustice, repression, violence.
But Jesus' call to follow him and preach the Good News to all the land was not easy to quelch. So, rulers did what they could to use the Bible to prop themselves up. It's a regular part of the human tapestry, leaders who abuse their positions at the detriment of, well, everyone. It's dangerous to place your hatred and biases as stemming from God, as if you can whitewash shit and call it a miracle. Of course the Bible is not immune; it's particularly useful to leaders because of the nature of spiritual beliefs to permeate everything we do.
The various books of the Gospels were taken from accounts handed down, several times over. The apostles also had very different vantage points at this crowded public execution. But his last words were recorded in two places (maybe more?)....
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" has always been peculiarly comforting to me. Here's Jesus, literally the full and complete embodiment of the Light, and he's praying a prayer of complaint!
Many in the crowd were Jewish, or versed in Judaism, and they would have recognized Jesus' words as the same as David's in Psalm 22, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
It's comforting to me because... Jesus was without sin, blameless, and yet he cried out in complaint, in supplication, just the same.
And, that was the last that Jesus spoke before dying. God did grant Jesus peace, and proved that death had no sting, when Jesus rose 3 days later.
I like the showings of Jesus' humanity. I like the permission to be broken, that it doesn't mean we're separated or wrong.
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2023, 07:02:35 AMFunny how xians, many of them blame Jews for killing jebus, oddly unaware that without that action the whole of their religion would not exist.
Jebus wasn't sacrificed, ffs he got upgraded from a smelly liberal desert wanderer to a god. Seems like a pretty good deal.
Anti-Semitism is senseless to begin with, but it's downright perplexing when Christians do it.... Ya know, Jesus was a Jew....
The sacrifice was enduring the suffering, humiliation, and pain. Death itself, a blameless man preaching peace murdered by many. Pilate can ceremoniously wash his hands all he wants; they're still covered in blood.
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2023, 03:34:28 AMFunny fact is that the gospel of Mark, without the last 12 verses that were added later, would have 666 verses. 😆
It must be the "Mark" of the Devil.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:14:39 AMAnti-Semitism is senseless to begin with, but it's downright perplexing when Christians do it.... Ya know, Jesus was a Jew....
The sacrifice was enduring the suffering, humiliation, and pain. Death itself, a blameless man preaching peace murdered by many. Pilate can ceremoniously wash his hands all he wants; they're still covered in blood.
This is so backwards and wrong. God is perfect, right?? So how did so much evil enter into this world except for the planning and crafting of it for this world by the perfect creator?? So who should be punished for the botching of his creation? Him, of course. But who does get the blame--yeah, you get it, the victims. I guess God's Ark was an earlier botched attempt to 'fix' his mistake; and that did not work either. So, why not invent human sacrifice? He gave it a shot. Did that work? Not really, for 'sin' did not exit this world. God made certain people 'actors' in his little play--they had no choice. So, why does anybody have blood on their hands except for god??? They don't, but he does!
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:14:39 AMThe sacrifice was enduring the suffering, humiliation, and pain. Death itself, a blameless man preaching peace murdered by many. Pilate can ceremoniously wash his hands all he wants; they're still covered in blood.
Pish posh. The Jews did what the Old Testament demanded they do. Kill the false prophet.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 02, 2023, 09:20:42 AMThis is so backwards and wrong. God is perfect, right?? So how did so much evil enter into this world except for the planning and crafting of it for this world by the perfect creator?? So who should be punished for the botching of his creation? Him, of course. But who does get the blame--yeah, you get it, the victims. I guess God's Ark was an earlier botched attempt to 'fix' his mistake; and that did not work either. So, why not invent human sacrifice? He gave it a shot. Did that work? Not really, for 'sin' did not exit this world. God made certain people 'actors' in his little play--they had no choice. So, why does anybody have blood on their hands except for god??? They don't, but he does!
In the KJV, in Isaiah 45:7, God says that it is
he that creates evil. Other versions use different words, such as "calamity" in order to soften the blow.
That's the only reason those newer versions were written, so people wouldn't realize what a monster the Christian God really is.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 02, 2023, 09:20:42 AMGod made certain people 'actors' in his little play--they had no choice.
What do you base this on?
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 02, 2023, 11:28:58 AMThat's the only reason those newer versions were written, so people wouldn't realize what a monster the Christian God really is.
In your view, KJV is more superior (reliable)? Why is that? KJV added and deleted, and that's not even talking about the Councils of Nicea..
Quote from: aitm on April 02, 2023, 10:49:09 AMPish posh. The Jews did what the Old Testament demanded they do. Kill the false prophet.
Pish posh. They only did to Oliver what social norms demanded they do. Beat him for asking for more of some disgusting food.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 30, 2023, 03:03:14 AMJesus' words on the cross in Mark were, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" He sounds pretty out of the loop to me.
Yeah, that's the typical apologetic explanation, but there's nothing in the text to suggest Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek about his response. This interpretation is based on the assumption that the Bible is meant to be read as a single unit. In reality, the anonymous authors of Matthew and John had the gospel of Mark in front of them and decided to "correct it" by inserting their own biases into the text. They added Jesus' miraculous origin story, his resurrection, many additional miracles, and changed a variety of details to serve the political agendas of their time. They made their Super Jesus into almost an entirely different character.
For sure, we have always fought against powers and principalities. People are capable, and intended for, great things through love. It's the disconnection between that need instilled within us, and the realities and fears of the world that leads to much of our suffering.
Christianity was for the people. It heralded a paradigm shift, revolution, anti-racism, anti-establishment. That's a real problem for people in power who seek injustice, repression, violence.
But Jesus' call to follow him and preach the Good News to all the land was not easy to quelch. So, rulers did what they could to use the Bible to prop themselves up. It's a regular part of the human tapestry, leaders who abuse their positions at the detriment of, well, everyone. It's dangerous to place your hatred and biases as stemming from God, as if you can whitewash shit and call it a miracle. Of course the Bible is not immune; it's particularly useful to leaders because of the nature of spiritual beliefs to permeate everything we do.
The various books of the Gospels were taken from accounts handed down, several times over. The apostles also had very different vantage points at this crowded public execution. But his last words were recorded in two places (maybe more?)....
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" has always been peculiarly comforting to me. Here's Jesus, literally the full and complete embodiment of the Light, and he's praying a prayer of complaint!
Many in the crowd were Jewish, or versed in Judaism, and they would have recognized Jesus' words as the same as David's in Psalm 22, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
It's comforting to me because... Jesus was without sin, blameless, and yet he cried out in complaint, in supplication, just the same.
And, that was the last that Jesus spoke before dying. God did grant Jesus peace, and proved that death had no sting, when Jesus rose 3 days later.
I like the showings of Jesus' humanity. I like the permission to be broken, that it doesn't mean we're separated or wrong.
Quote from: SGOS on April 02, 2023, 06:41:44 AMIt must be the "Mark" of the Devil.
Our local phone company has quite the sense of humor..
We have a First Assembly of God Church in my town.
When the church would call out, the caller id said 1st Ass Church.
Pastor called and complained. The company said they changed it. When he called out, it now said FAG Church (and this dude was pretty homophobic, yeesh!).
Pastor called back to request to be the 1st Ass Church again. And, they remain that name to this day lol
My Meeting? The company gave us a phone number ending in 666...
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:08:12 AMFor sure, we have always fought against powers and principalities. People are capable, and intended for, great things through love. It's the disconnection between that need instilled within us, and the realities and fears of the world that leads to much of our suffering.
Phrases like "powers and principalities" make my eyes glaze over. I hate Church jargon. Nine out of ten times, it's meaningless fluff.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:08:12 AMChristianity was for the people. It heralded a paradigm shift, revolution, anti-racism, anti-establishment. That's a real problem for people in power who seek injustice, repression, violence.
Uhh... What? As soon as Christianity became mainstream, it was used as a tool to oppress others. Before Rome became Christian, people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. Suddenly, Christianity becomes the state religion, and everyone is forced to participate. The religion was spread through violence. The Bible was used in support of the slave industry. And anti-establishment? Hell no. The Bible is very pro-authority. According to it, all world leaders are appointed by God himself, so if you rebel against them, you rebel against God. If you speak out against your king, prophet, etc, you will be put to death. The closest a Christian can come to sparking a revolution is becoming a martyr. Passivity and obedience until death.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:08:12 AMBut Jesus' call to follow him and preach the Good News to all the land was not easy to quelch. So, rulers did what they could to use the Bible to prop themselves up. It's a regular part of the human tapestry, leaders who abuse their positions at the detriment of, well, everyone. It's dangerous to place your hatred and biases as stemming from God, as if you can whitewash shit and call it a miracle. Of course the Bible is not immune; it's particularly useful to leaders because of the nature of spiritual beliefs to permeate everything we do.
If only the Bible was more clear about its meanings, so people couldn't cherry pick from it to support any position.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 04:08:12 AMThe various books of the Gospels were taken from accounts handed down, several times over. The apostles also had very different vantage points at this crowded public execution. But his last words were recorded in two places (maybe more?)....
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" has always been peculiarly comforting to me. Here's Jesus, literally the full and complete embodiment of the Light, and he's praying a prayer of complaint!
Many in the crowd were Jewish, or versed in Judaism, and they would have recognized Jesus' words as the same as David's in Psalm 22, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"
It's comforting to me because... Jesus was without sin, blameless, and yet he cried out in complaint, in supplication, just the same.
And, that was the last that Jesus spoke before dying. God did grant Jesus peace, and proved that death had no sting, when Jesus rose 3 days later.
I like the showings of Jesus' humanity. I like the permission to be broken, that it doesn't mean we're separated or wrong.
These are Jesus' last words in Mark and Matthew, but Luke's Super Jesus chose these final words, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" The way I see it, the former two wanted Jesus to be seen in a sympathetic light, whereas Luke just wanted to make Jesus seem like a badass, taking his crucifixion like a champ. I don't believe the author of Mark intended Jesus to be seen as the "Son of God," but as a wise teacher, while Luke definitely wanted to portray Jesus as a god. As a result, he removed any signs of weaknesses, added more miracles, and just changed Jesus' personality to make him seem more in control.
Also, why did you post the same reply three hours apart? Were you trying to edit your post?
Quote from: Dreamer on April 02, 2023, 07:47:15 PMPish posh. They only did to Oliver what social norms demanded they do. Beat him for asking for more of some disgusting food.
Finally admitting that the babble is no more relevant than Oliver Twist. How perfect.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 02, 2023, 08:30:41 PMThe bible and believers.
People always have the choice to follow God or not.
Quote from: aitm on April 03, 2023, 12:37:35 PMFinally admitting that the babble is no more relevant than Oliver Twist. How perfect.
Too predictable, how droll.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 02, 2023, 11:02:39 PMPhrases like "powers and principalities" make my eyes glaze over. I hate Church jargon. Nine out of ten times, it's meaningless fluff.
Uhh... What? As soon as Christianity became mainstream, it was used as a tool to oppress others. Before Rome became Christian, people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. Suddenly, Christianity becomes the state religion, and everyone is forced to participate. The religion was spread through violence. The Bible was used in support of the slave industry. And anti-establishment? Hell no. The Bible is very pro-authority. According to it, all world leaders are appointed by God himself, so if you rebel against them, you rebel against God. If you speak out against your king, prophet, etc, you will be put to death. The closest a Christian can come to sparking a revolution is becoming a martyr. Passivity and obedience until death.
If only the Bible was more clear about its meanings, so people couldn't cherry pick from it to support any position.
These are Jesus' last words in Mark and Matthew, but Luke's Super Jesus chose these final words, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" The way I see it, the former two wanted Jesus to be seen in a sympathetic light, whereas Luke just wanted to make Jesus seem like a badass, taking his crucifixion like a champ. I don't believe the author of Mark intended Jesus to be seen as the "Son of God," but as a wise teacher, while Luke definitely wanted to portray Jesus as a god. As a result, he removed any signs of weaknesses, added more miracles, and just changed Jesus' personality to make him seem more in control.
Also, why did you post the same reply three hours apart? Were you trying to edit your post?
I had way too many tabs open and lost track. Not sure what happened exactly :)
Certainly the Gospels support different facets. But the entire story is one of the underdog, the downtrodden, the needy.
It's been abused and used to prop up various governments.
When I say we fight against powers and principalities, it's because what we face is so much more than just people and things. It's the ideas, the beliefs about power and who has control. It's why things didn't become peaceful with the death of Saddam Hussein. Our task is not to destroy a person; it's to remove the desire for destruction, the false beliefs that allow us to hurt each other.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 04, 2023, 10:25:40 AMPeople always have the choice to follow God or not.
How so very profound!! And people always have the choice to follow Bugs Bunny or Paul Bunyan or The Martian or any other fictional character or not. I realized that at a fairly young age and so started looking around for someone or something to believe in. And that lead to what reasons should I believe in any god or person as a spiritual leader--or leader of any sort. And I then realized that maybe 'beliefs' are not good enough to pin your thoughts and decision on. Just maybe one needs to find ways of thinking about things using proof or facts about to help form a decision. So I began exploring my world and universe using facts. One does not have to have any reasons whatsoever to hold a belief. But one needs to have solid, provable reasons to think something is real or not when assessing any issue.
So, with all of your blathering, you have given not a single reason to think your are relaying facts or actual proofs of what you say. You are all belief and nothing more. That demonstrates to me that that is all you have--you pick stuff out of thin air and present it as facts. You simply reinforce my understanding that there is no god or any kind of deity.
Wishful thinking is very popular. 👹👽☠️💀🪬🛐👁🗨👻
Quote from: Dreamer on April 04, 2023, 10:26:23 AMToo predictable, how droll.
Hey, you made the comparison. Next time but yer noggin in gear first.
Yet none have refuted my original position.
In fact, only one even attempted to, with a stab at forcing Christians to submit to Messianic Judaism and be beholden to all of the old laws. (Which I'm unconcerned because we're not, and 'all things are lawful to me.')
Again, not interested in convincing anyone of the realities of God and Jesus. There's literally thousands of books, movies, articles, and it is generally historically accepted that Jesus lived. But, that is another matter, that I don't have the desire to explore now.
The Bible is, in fact, a real book with words that support my position. I was looking for weaknesses or flaws, but have yet to uncover any.
Quote from: aitm on April 04, 2023, 06:33:19 PMHey, you made the comparison. Next time but yer noggin in gear first.
I really did hope that you wouldn't be so predictable. 🤷
ETA: Sorry, been ill and not in my usual spirits. What I mean is, I get something out of what you say when you don't reach for predictable or low-hanging fruit.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 09, 2023, 02:04:14 AMI was looking for weaknesses or flaws, but have yet to uncover any.
Of course you can't, they're called blinders. You can find them on horses and Christian's. Look everywhere but at the actual book. Still can't tell me why your omnipotent god is so befuddled by a woman's menstrual cycle. Tell us....do you warn others of your "time" so they don't touch you or sit where you sat or touch what you have touched? No? How odd of you. Do you go off and set yourself apart from your fellows for the time demanded by god so they do not become unclean? No? LOL. Pick your cherries, pick away. lOL.
Quote from: aitm on April 09, 2023, 02:49:18 PMOf course you can't, they're called blinders. You can find them on horses and Christian's. Look everywhere but at the actual book. Still can't tell me why your omnipotent god is so befuddled by a woman's menstrual cycle. Tell us....do you warn others of your "time" so they don't touch you or sit where you sat or touch what you have touched? No? How odd of you. Do you go off and set yourself apart from your fellows for the time demanded by god so they do not become unclean? No? LOL. Pick your cherries, pick away. lOL.
Why do you think that Christianity is predicated upon knowing and adhering to ancient law?
I know why I was a Messianic Jew for several years when I was young, but I was a devout seeker.
Why do *you* interpret Christianity this way?
Quote from: Dreamer on April 10, 2023, 10:43:21 AMWhy do *you* interpret Christianity this way?
I don't interpret it. It book has instructions, if you choose to ignore them because they are inconvenient to you, that's your decision. But you'll get no get out of jail card from us simply because of "your" interpretation. The book says what it says, not hard to follow the rules at all.
Quote from: aitm on April 10, 2023, 11:47:28 AMI don't interpret it. It book has instructions, if you choose to ignore them because they are inconvenient to you, that's your decision. But you'll get no get out of jail card from us simply because of "your" interpretation. The book says what it says, not hard to follow the rules at all.
And that is why I dismiss your misunderstanding.
It is so absurd to make me laugh, without mirth, but with genuine joy and a touch of sadness.
Thanks to God that the Bible does indeed tell me that I am a new creature. That all things are lawful to me (though not all profitable). That to follow Jesus is as simple as this: Loving God and loving others as myself.
You can continue to try to force whatever thoughts your wish, but you're demonstrably wrong and further lack any convictions on this matter.
Perhaps it would be better for you to simply consider me a new creature of love. Because that is all Jesus has done for me, and all that I follow.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 11, 2023, 08:27:54 AMAnd that is why I dismiss your misunderstanding.
It is so absurd to make me laugh, without mirth, but with genuine joy and a touch of sadness.
Thanks to God that the Bible does indeed tell me that I am a new creature. That all things are lawful to me (though not all profitable). That to follow Jesus is as simple as this: Loving God and loving others as myself.
You can continue to try to force whatever thoughts your wish, but you're demonstrably wrong and further lack any convictions on this matter.
Perhaps it would be better for you to simply consider me a new creature of love. Because that is all Jesus has done for me, and all that I follow.
And your position, like millions of others, is simply excusing your actions, that god himself has declared unlawful, under the guise that every action is forgivable according to you. That in " heaven" a person who lived life in pure and absolute dedication to every word and law, who in gods eyes has been a perfect follower, gets the same reward as a rapist or murderer who lived life with all the vileness that a human could possess can at the last minute be fully forgiven and stand next to the perfect one with the same blessings and love from god.
This is why your position is not just laughable, but as vile as the thought above. And this is why so many turn from your religion of "convenience". You are simply skipping about, throwing empty platitudes into the air, sprinkling pixie dust on your head, and telling people to "look at me, I know the truth", when in fact you know nothing other than this grand illusion you have convinced yourself of. You may do what you wish with your pandering self. But you can stop with the bullshit in our house.
I'm literally quoting Scripture, not relying on my own understanding as you do.
Everything is lawful to me.
1 Corin 10
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22
I suppose you must ignore these Scriptures to apply your judgemental lens?
I know the Scriptures, and I know what Jesus has called me to do. Your insistence that it is the opposite is just noise, not bearing out in truth.
Yes, the Bible changes the rules in the middle of the New Testament, but I consider that to be another point against the Bible's credibility. It says that cursed is he who changes a single dot of the scripture, and Jesus says he has come not to change the law, but to fulfill it. But now the religion is starting to spread to the Gentiles, and the church realizes some of their laws are making it hard for new believers, which limits their growth. What to do? Oh, I know! Let's change God's perfect law, so the Gentiles don't have to circumcise themselves as adults to join and such.
That seems pretty transparent to me. They wanted their religion to spread faster, so they made it more accessible. And if the old laws weren't necessary, why the Hell did God demand them in the first place? Is he perfect or not? Did the omniscient, timeless God of the universe change his mind?
The Bible is the Spirit's attempt to impact the physical realities. That is, humans are far more brutal in our past--we had issues of infant sacrifice, rampant murders, etc. The Torah Rules deal with addressing human actions. It was relational, dependant upon the situations unfolding as described. (Plus, the very important point that 1. Jesus fulfilled the law, so ALL I have to do to follow God is to follow Jesus. Which is to love God and love others. And 2. The Bible is full of parable and allegory.)
We need the whole story, fall and redemption. We need to strive for that redemption (the verses concerning the specific laws are about this, among other things) before we can fully understand that there is nothing we can do to deserve it, earn it. It is simply ours because it's been given to us, simple forgiveness. We can do nothing to lose access nor is anything required to experience that Oneness. All we can do is accept and experience. And, I think many have sipped and even gulped at that Life Water without knowing its name.
What is God? Love. What is love? That's something I ponder and delight in the many answers I find.
It's easy to call God the personification of love when you dismiss every example of his bloodthirsty and irrational behavior as allegory.
It is in the Oneness of the covenant between god, the spirits and man that true beauty is revealed to be as deep as the waters of an endless multiverse of platitudes, and Depok Chproaisms. This has been shown to me to be true; for just look at the birds and flowers and there is no need to wash one's hands before eating for that is as meaningful as a barren fig tree. Jesus IS love and love is Jesus. The symmetry is undeniable.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 11, 2023, 02:51:30 PMIt's easy to call God the personification of love when you dismiss every example of his bloodthirsty and irrational behavior as allegory.
Sounds like the personification of love to me. What kind of fucked up love did you get?
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 11, 2023, 02:51:30 PMIt's easy to call God the personification of love when you dismiss every example of his bloodthirsty and irrational behavior as allegory.
I have found humans to be bloodthirsty. And highly irrational.
I know God as much more than words. I can speak of my direct experience as much as to the Bible. God reveals mysteries even today, and it has always been just as easy to claim to be God's speaker as it is now, leaving it up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff.
However, is this underlying implication that I must be interpreting Scripture wrong, wrought from a stance of knowledge (I know exactly what is literal and what is figurative), in an attempt to demonstrate a futility (it is unknowable what is literal or figurative and therefore pointless at best and lying at worst), or some other supposition?
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 11, 2023, 11:41:31 PMSounds like the personification of love to me.
🤦
YOU are the personification of love.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 12, 2023, 12:54:05 AMYOU are the personification of love.
I really hate that notion.
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 12, 2023, 02:11:19 AMI really hate that notion.
I couldn't resist sharing my thoughts when I read that. Realizing it was you, my friend, is icing on the cake.
I know elves and wizards as much more than words. I can speak of my direct experience as much as to the Trilogy. Gandal reveals mysteries even today, and it has always been just as easy to claim to be His speaker as it is now, leaving it up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff. As Gandalf says "I have found that it is the small everyday deed of ordinary folks that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
Quote from: Dreamer on April 12, 2023, 12:45:44 AMGod reveals mysteries even today,
Still befuddled by a woman's menstrual cycle....LOL...quite the god you fancy as all knowing.......
Quote from: Cassia on April 12, 2023, 07:27:55 AMI know elves and wizards as much more than words. I can speak of my direct experience as much as to the Trilogy. Gandal reveals mysteries even today, and it has always been just as easy to claim to be His speaker as it is now, leaving it up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff. As Gandalf says "I have found that it is the small everyday deed of ordinary folks that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
How apt to note the deep Roman Catholic roots of Tolkien so evident in Middle Earth.
The Lord of the Rings was a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
Quote from: aitm on April 12, 2023, 08:33:59 AMStill befuddled by a woman's menstrual cycle....LOL...quite the god you fancy as all knowing......
I'm fucking befuddled by a woman's menstrual cycle. 😆 That bitch waltzes in whenever she wants, bogarts chocolate and ice cream, and generally screws up plans.
Humans had screwed up ideas about it, and God appealed for more grace. Of course the message was skewed in the translation.
C'mon, people can't even agree on things that are on recorded video.
The Bible isn't magical; it is not impervious to human interference. And that is true at every point, from thought to writing to transacting, translating, reproducing...
When I was a Messianic Jew, my best friend was as well. I was 12; she was 14. Our crimson tides were brutal, with endometriosis and ovarian cysts. One week, when we were both cursed with a visit from Aunt Flo, we decided to impose our own form of isolation upon ourselves.
We sang and danced, threw popcorn at each other, ate chocolate and cookies, and read through those verses again. We realized that, perhaps, this was a way to allow women a brief reprieve from their usual duties. Yes, it's absurd that some men were so freaked out about cleanliness and menstruation that women were referred to as unclean at this time. But how does a woman in ancient times, beset with such an affliction as my friend had, find the time, resources, and ability to care for her needs, in a violent and patriarchal society? What if he thinks that she needs time to be clean so she doesn't fuck up HIS world and body?
People are still fuckered about menstruation. It's us, not God.
More pathetic excuses. God said it. Period....no pun intended.LOL
Quote from: Dreamer on April 12, 2023, 10:32:52 AMHow apt to note the deep Roman Catholic roots of Tolkien so evident in Middle Earth.
The Lord of the Rings was a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
Right. Sure, everything good is really Christian. We all know that. And your god wasn't just one in a clan of gods and your religion wasn't a redo of an old Persian religion. And Jesus isn't 2,000 years late. Oh no, you have the new and true religion, Dreamer, LOL.
One God to rule them all? 🤑
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 12, 2023, 05:00:21 PMOne God to rule them all? 🤑
The fact that "god" admits there are other gods are dismissed by the deluded. Even though all the "other" gods provide the exact same statistical averages of survival, wealth and longevity is glossed over by the deluded. They refuse to see that one god is simply no better than the other gods and surprising enough no god offers the exact same probabilities.
If ONLY I was sourcing the author!
What?
That was a direct quote?
Go ahead and argue against Tolkien about his own writings!
Quote from: aitm on April 12, 2023, 01:21:43 PMMore pathetic excuses. God said it. Period....no pun intended.LOL
lol Oh, okay. I didn't realize that you were privvy to a litmus test that signals true divine words.
You should be able to clear up a lot of shit now.
Quote from: Cassia on April 12, 2023, 01:53:34 PMRight. Sure, everything good is really Christian.
Sorry if your choice was ironic, and I utilized that. Your arguments are with Tolkien, not me. I was just directly quoting his own words about his own universe, but you know, I'm sure someone must know better..
🫠
hu·bris
noun
excessive pride or self-confidence
Quote from: Cassia on April 12, 2023, 07:27:55 AMI know elves and wizards as much more than words. I can speak of my direct experience as much as to the Trilogy. Gandal reveals mysteries even today, and it has always been just as easy to claim to be His speaker as it is now, leaving it up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff. As Gandalf says "I have found that it is the small everyday deed of ordinary folks that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
Currently reading the silmarillion for the first time, btw.
Not that fat in yet, but it is an easier read, so far, than I feared.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 12, 2023, 10:17:31 PMhu·bris
noun
excessive pride or self-confidence
That word fits you to a T!. And you base much of your 'beliefs' (you are incapable of critical thought) on fictional writings and characters. Willful ignorance is you.
Quote from: Dreamer on April 12, 2023, 12:45:44 AMI have found humans to be bloodthirsty. And highly irrational.
I know God as much more than words. I can speak of my direct experience as much as to the Bible. God reveals mysteries even today, and it has always been just as easy to claim to be God's speaker as it is now, leaving it up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff.
However, is this underlying implication that I must be interpreting Scripture wrong, wrought from a stance of knowledge (I know exactly what is literal and what is figurative), in an attempt to demonstrate a futility (it is unknowable what is literal or figurative and therefore pointless at best and lying at worst), or some other supposition?
I'm saying that you use very self-serving logic when it comes to the Bible. This passage makes God look bad? Throw it in the allegory pile. This one sounds nice? Throw it in the literal pile.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 13, 2023, 11:08:29 AMI'm saying that you use very self-serving logic when it comes to the Bible. This passage makes God look bad? Throw it in the allegory pile. This one sounds nice? Throw it in the literal pile.
Hmm, what have I done this with?
Please show me one example of me deeming something literal and then me declaring something else as allegory. Even just one.
I'll wait.