Curious what issues you have with Christians/Christianity.
Some Christian dogma I marinated in during my childhood (Note: I object to all of these as false and dangerous):
The man as head of household should be served as king, honored and obeyed without question. To do otherwise is a sin.
Women are lesser and have no position teaching or having any authority over anyone but children.
When bad things happen to Christians, it's because Satan is attacking them.
When bad things happen to non-Christians, it's because God is punishing them for sin.
* Being gay is one of, if not the, worst sin because it's continual, blasphemous abomination. *
* The punishment for the first murderer was that he was black, and this is where black people come from-they're cursed. *
* Virginity is of supreme importance, and a woman is devalued and unwanted unless she maintains her purity. *
* These * dogmas were particularly damaging and still fill me with anger. I feel a sense of responsibility to confront these harmful (and false) ideas wherever they crop up. *
My objections are numerous, but I can apply these against all the dogmas that I've mentioned:
It's not okay to justify mistreating others because you think God disapproves of what they're doing.
I'm not okay with God being co-opted to support someone's prejudices and fears/hatred.
There's lots more; I didn't even comment on beliefs about hell, dinosaurs, history, evolution...
So, what's your objections?
I agree with all of your objections. And hundreds more, just too many to list. Almost every church I know about uses fear as it's 'club' to keep one in line with whatever that particular minister/priest thinks is appropriate.
Patriarchy is one of the most damaging dogmas preached and insisted upon. Christians believe it is their right to push their message down the throats of society--they regard it as their god-given freedom and duty. Hypocrisy and organized religions are woven together and displayed daily. I would say all organized religions are dangerous, especially white christian nationalist movements. And the fact that religion kills the thinking part of our brain--willful ignorance is demanded (faith) and exalted. And I could go on and on......................
You make your own case against religion, but refuse to listen to yourself. It should be noted that "god" uses the same word..."abomination" for homo's and those who get tattoos.....think about that eh.
There's a lot to dispute, and I especially dislike the hatred towards women and minorities and nonbelievers, but my main dispute is with dogma itself.
Who decides what the dogma is? And how do they decide it? And my biggest gripe - how do they know any of it is correct?
The fundamental problem I have with Christianity or any other religion is that this stuff has all the appearances of mere opinion elevated to some godly level. Unquestionable. Unchangeable. Impossible to verify.
Like imagine if I took some mass shooter's manifesto and erased his name and put God there instead and that's what we all structured our society around for centuries. If that seems like an odd analogy, remember that Muhammad was a warlord. Several prophets were, iirc.
Quote from: aitm on January 27, 2023, 07:58:46 PMYou make your own case against religion, but refuse to listen to yourself. It should be noted that "god" uses the same word..."abomination" for homo's and those who get tattoos.....think about that eh.
Tl;Dr: I didn't know/remember that it was the same word, though I did attend a Judeo-Christian church that endeavored to follow all those rules. We gave up pork and shrimp, but I don't think we ever checked our clothing tags, so I guess that was all for naught...
The issue that bothers me the most, stirs me to speak on it...
The Bible refers to a particular type of sexual relationship as an abomination, that's true. But to strip it to 'gay' is such a gross oversimplification that completely erases the true abomination. This is still a problem of particular note in the Catholic Church...
There was a big problem with male leaders sexually violating young boys in the church. This is the abomination.
This is a big deal to me, not only for the pain that the perversion of these verses has caused gay people, but also for the pain that has been caused to countless victims of child sex abuse. There are other verses which are used to condemn gay people, that describe rape as the sin.
That verse is a HEALING verse. It is a balm, a relief--yet it's used as a weapon to support mistreating people in the LGBTQ+ spectrum.
When the reality is, it's absolutely disgusting and revolting to God when an adult sexually abuses a child, particularly when that adult is in a position of power, a spiritual leader in the church..
I'm against dogmas. People do stupid things when they value ideas and ideals over life.
That humans can be judgmental, cruel, and use God to justify their own wrongs, tells me about their character but does not make me flee from God.
As far as the tattoo, it's a good thing that all things are permitted to me...
Which denomination of Christianity are we talking about? After all, they're all at loggerheads.
My problem is with religion in general, but if we're talking Christianity the main one for me is the fact that children are brainwashed into thanking a middle Eastern hippy for their packed lunches. He has absolutely nothing to do with the food shopping or the preparation.
We're all well aware of the problems that dogma throws up, so I'm not even going there.
Quote from: Dreamer on January 27, 2023, 11:23:51 PMAs far as the tattoo, it's a good thing that all things are permitted to me...
Not according to the babble but go ahead, be like all Christian's cherry pick what YOU think god consider an abomination. I judge the worth of a religion by the behavior of its followers..that's why I reject them all.
Quote from: aitm on January 28, 2023, 02:54:21 PMNot according to the babble but go ahead, be like all Christian's cherry pick what YOU think god consider an abomination. I judge the worth of a religion by the behavior of its followers..that's why I reject them all.
Actually, I was quoting the Bible.
Everything is permissible," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible," but not everything is edifying.
1 Corinthians 10:23
Jesus fulfilled those laws, and I am not beholden to them. That is what following Christ is.
Rather, I have been called to love God and love others as myself; everything within that context, is not a sin. I focus on the new commandment Jesus gave, and it is difficult enough. Can't imagine being held to all these rules, many of which serve to give context to the stories/parables.
Quote from: Dreamer on January 28, 2023, 05:30:17 PMJesus fulfilled those laws, and I am not beholden to them. That is what following Christ is.
Rather, I have been called to love God and love others as myself; everything within that context, is not a sin. I focus on the new commandment Jesus gave, and it is difficult enough. Can't imagine being held to all these rules, many of which serve to give context to the stories/parables.
In short....I am allowed to ignore the parts of the babble that are inconvenient to me because the babble says so....
I wonder...what does god and Jesus REALLY want? Do they prefer someone who follows the rules..or those who follow some of the rules? Does one who lives by the rules, which by the way, is not that hard..or those who only follow some and beg for forgiveness get the same treatment? Seem like bullshit to me. Think about it., I followed the letter of the law and those who don't get the same rosy garden and Golden Arches? Why bother with even writing rules? What a crock of self righteous bullshit.
Jesus made a whip.
Nice work Jesus.
Jesus spat his dummy out in a place of worship.
Nice work Jesus.
If Jesus was alive today, he'd be on some sort of register.
Let's be honest. If you had a date with Jesus you'd be mad if you came back for more.
Quote from: Dreamer on January 28, 2023, 05:30:17 PMJesus fulfilled those laws, and I am not beholden to them. That is what following Christ is.
Rather, I have been called to love God and love others as myself; everything within that context, is not a sin. I focus on the new commandment Jesus gave, and it is difficult enough. Can't imagine being held to all these rules, many of which serve to give context to the stories/parables.
My studies over about a 20 yr. span let me to understand that jesus, like Bugs Bunny, is fiction. Following any of 'his' laws is like using Bugs as a social model. Neither is real. I don't need to be 'called' to follow personal rules of conduct. I have learned it over time by trial and error and critical thinking. I find myself being more loving and kind than the average religious person. (Not to toot my own horn, but just an honest reflection of my own actions)
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 27, 2023, 06:28:17 PMAnd the fact that religion kills the thinking part of our brain
Wut? 🤔
Quote from: ManUfan on January 28, 2023, 12:55:48 PMWhich denomination of Christianity are we talking about? After all, they're all at loggerheads.
My problem is with religion in general, but if we're talking Christianity the main one for me is the fact that children are brainwashed into thanking a middle Eastern hippy for their packed lunches. He has absolutely nothing to do with the food shopping or the preparation.
We're all well aware of the problems that dogma throws up, so I'm not even going there.
Whichever flavor is bugging you atm or stands out, whatever. There is a wide breadth..
What bothers you about prayers of thanksgiving to God? Is it that the people and creatures should be thanked? What if they are thanked in addition to God, is that a lesser objection or just a lateral move?
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 27, 2023, 06:28:17 PMAlmost every church I know about uses fear as it's 'club' to keep one in line with whatever that particular minister/priest thinks is appropriate.
Patriarchy is one of the most damaging dogmas preached and insisted upon. Christians believe it is their right to push their message down the throats of society--they regard it as their god-given freedom and duty. Hypocrisy and organized religions are woven together and displayed daily. I would say all organized religions are dangerous, especially white christian nationalist movements.
Fear was my upbringing lol Fire so hot it's black and will never be consumed? That stuff is terrifying.
The humbleness of the Quaker approach has great appeal-we often open our worship with queries. Always questioning, knowing that God is available to everyone just the same, so that the voice of a child, the voice of a young mother, the voice of an elder man--all carry the same weight and equality. That's true amongst all Quakers.
Yet there are people who hunger after fear preaching. Maybe it comforts them? The feeling of moral superiority?
Religion can be very dangerous. If someone believes that their actions are sanctioned by God/higher power, that can invest into them the idea that they are right without question.
Jesus' call of love requires continual consideration, questioning, exploring, checking, correcting, refining. Love requires that level of attention and monitoring because it addresses and reacts to changing needs.
Organized religions are no more dangerous than organized governments. Either can do much to harm or heal.
Christian nationalist movements are indeed scary. I hate how people tend to give legitimacy to anyone invoking God's name or claiming Christianity. It's lazy and dangerous to gloss over people in that way.
Quote from: Dreamer on January 28, 2023, 11:27:15 PMWut? 🤔
It's called brainwashing. The bible and its 'commandments' which can be read and explained as the speaker wants, is the worlds most successful propaganda ever.
Person who believes some book is both literal and inerrant and was communicated to mankind from heaven and was raised to believe this from birth: "I'm not brainwashed!"
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 27, 2023, 09:25:14 PMThere's a lot to dispute, and I especially dislike the hatred towards women and minorities and nonbelievers, but my main dispute is with dogma itself.
Who decides what the dogma is? And how do they decide it? And my biggest gripe - how do they know any of it is correct?
The fundamental problem I have with Christianity or any other religion is that this stuff has all the appearances of mere opinion elevated to some godly level. Unquestionable. Unchangeable. Impossible to verify.
Like imagine if I took some mass shooter's manifesto and erased his name and put God there instead and that's what we all structured our society around for centuries. If that seems like an odd analogy, remember that Muhammad was a warlord. Several prophets were, iirc.
Due to the nature of the Bible seeking to elicit responses and questions, and to apply those lessons, it is rather loose.
People who want power, control, authority... They can easily use such a document and declare that they know what it really all means, and they shut down questions rather than explore them. Then they hold all the answers and control the narrative.
The Bible is open to interpretation, but there are structures and contexts given in/through the Bible to instruct how to interpret.
That is, anything that is not loving God and others, is not possible to be supported by Scripture. It takes humility and vulnerability to apply that to Scriptures and even more so to apply it to your life...
Quote from: aitm on January 28, 2023, 06:06:48 PMI wonder...what does god and Jesus REALLY want? Do they prefer someone who follows the rules..or those who follow some of the rules? Does one who lives by the rules, which by the way, is not that hard..or those who only follow some and beg for forgiveness get the same treatment? Seem like bullshit to me. Think about it., I followed the letter of the law and those who don't get the same rosy garden and Golden Arches? Why bother with even writing rules? What a crock of self righteous bullshit.
It's not about following rules, or fairness. It's about love, as simple and as complex as that is.
Is it better to follow the rules all along or to beg forgiveness having broken them?
I'll defer to Jesus, who answered this question. People were angry that Jesus kept hanging out with sinners. He predictably responded with a parable. We're invited into the story about how a shepherd with 100 sheep will leave 99 of them to find just 1 who is lost. Having found that one, the joy is great-and there's celebrating with friends and family that what had been lost, is found.
There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine respectable people who do not need to repent.
Is that unfair?
No. Maybe, probably. Yes.
It doesn't matter. Following Jesus is not about fairness. It's about forgiveness and grace. Not because you've done all the right things, but because you haven't done all the right things.
Sin is its own punishment because it separates you from God/love. Rooting out sin is simply removing those barriers to love.
That's why people are called to stop sinning, and that's what the rejoicing is about.
It's the opposite of self-righteous. I've screwed up plenty in my life, and if you want to judge me, I can promise that you'll find a plethora in my past and present to judge me on. All I can do is face them, acknowledging my wrongdoings, seeking restitution with people as needed, and seeking a way forward in love and justice so that I don't keep doing the same things wrong (nor do I judge myself so harshly that it is literal abuse manifesting in self-harm, like burning myself repeatedly). It frees me from sin, from the weight and burden, the guilt, the invisible chains binding us to our actions. We are more than the sum of our parts and our history.
Why, then, would I not want the same forgiveness for someone else that I have?
At Meeting, people were sharing about the verses concerning praying for our enemies. As Quakers, we actively seek to not
have enemies. One Friend shared that their heart landed on Putin and how they were just so angry about the war that they couldn't bring themselves to pray for him.
There are ways to pray for blessings for your enemies, even warmongering murderers like Putin. How wonderful if tomorrow he were to end the war, to apologize, to replace the soldiers with builders and aid, to release the imprisoned innocents, to act in love of others and not out of fear or love of self/money/pleasures.
How much more worthy of celebration is that, versus my own personal and continuing commitment to nonviolence? It would be a day of joy, for an evil man to turn from sin.
If I believed in the power of prayer, I'd pray for Putin too. I'd pray for him to choke to death on his own saliva. Or for someone in Russia, who is tired of wasting the lives of untrained, ill-equipped men in the meat grinder of Ukraine, to take matters into their own hands and end the dictator.
Quote from: Dreamer on January 30, 2023, 04:56:19 AMThere are ways to pray for blessings for your enemies, even warmongering murderers like Putin. How wonderful if tomorrow he were to end the war, to apologize, to replace the soldiers with builders and aid, to release the imprisoned innocents, to act in love of others and not out of fear or love of self/money/pleasures.
Now that would be a miracle! Hell, an abrupt and massive change like that would definitely force me to reevaluate many things.
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 01, 2023, 09:40:14 AMNow that would be a miracle! Hell, an abrupt and massive change like that would definitely force me to reevaluate many things.
I'm not holding my breath for a God inspired U-turn.
After all Putin's a bit like God in some ways, narcissistic, a murdering bully who uses idle threats to get what he wants.
OT God would be proud of him.
Quote from: ManUfan on February 01, 2023, 10:37:50 AMI'm not holding my breath for a God inspired U-turn.
After all Putin's a bit like God in some ways, narcissistic, a murdering bully who uses idle threats to get what he wants.
OT God would be proud of him.
If God ordered Putin to totally annihilate his enemies, leaving none left alive...he'd fail. But he'd try at least. That makes him a better king in God's eyes than Saul. lol
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 31, 2023, 03:16:30 AMIf I believed in the power of prayer, I'd pray for Putin too. I'd pray for him to choke to death on his own saliva. Or for someone in Russia, who is tired of wasting the lives of untrained, ill-equipped men in the meat grinder of Ukraine, to take matters into their own hands and end the dictator.
Yeah, that wouldn't lead to something terrible like the power void that led to Al-Qaeda...
I did start out with prayers of destruction. Very Quaker-like skirting of the peace testimony.... God, please let Putin fall into a coma.. God, please help Putin to become lost on a deserted island... And, some involving firing squads...
But, to pray that he feels the weight of the blood he has spilled? To carry that with him and guide him to do better, to never murder again?
Quote from: ManUfan on February 01, 2023, 10:37:50 AMI'm not holding my breath for a God inspired U-turn.
After all Putin's a bit like God in some ways, narcissistic, a murdering bully who uses idle threats to get what he wants.
OT God would be proud of him.
Hmm, not sure what you're referencing in all that.
But, I wouldn't hold your breath either. True change is hard, especially if you're comfortable. And he's created a fine fantasy for himself, far removed from realities of the death and destruction he orders. Sometimes I pray he has nightmares (to awaken him to these realities), but I don't know that those prayers are right...
Quote from: Dreamer on February 03, 2023, 12:28:50 AMHmm, not sure what you're referencing in all that.
But, I wouldn't hold your breath either. True change is hard, especially if you're comfortable. And he's created a fine fantasy for himself, far removed from realities of the death and destruction he orders. Sometimes I pray he has nightmares (to awaken him to these realities), but I don't know that those prayers are right...
The God of the Bible is pretty good at convincing people when he really wants to. Just look at Saul/Paul. Shows up, speaks to him, and blinds him with a bright light, curing him later with a man from the church. Guy was instantly convinced.
The God of the modern day, however? He's a bit lacking in imagination. Maybe he already used all his best ideas in the Old Testament.
Make me God for a day, and here's what I'd do. I'd put Putin in a coma. And while in this coma, he sees life from the perspectives of multiple Ukrainians. He feels their every emotion. All their pain. Throw in a Russian soldier too, so he could see them suffer on their side of the war as well. He doesn't get to control these people, only watch as a prisoner in their heads. After he awakens from his coma, then maybe he'll pull a Scrooge and change. If not, at least we can say we gave him a chance before we pull the plug.
Heck, you know how much better the world would be if world leaders knew they had a God on their back? Better behave, or God will put you out of the job, permanently.
Quote from: Dreamer on February 03, 2023, 12:28:50 AMHmm, not sure what you're referencing in all that.
But, I wouldn't hold your breath either. True change is hard, especially if you're comfortable. And he's created a fine fantasy for himself, far removed from realities of the death and destruction he orders. Sometimes I pray he has nightmares (to awaken him to these realities), but I don't know that those prayers are right...
I'd suggest that you shouldn't waste any more of your time praying. After all it's obvious that prayer doesn't work in any meaningful sense.
From what I can gather prayer only makes the person praying feel useful/better about their self and changes nothing in reality.
To answer the original question, I find the entire reliance on magical thinking problematic. I think it's better to build our understanding of the world on facts. That being said, I can coexist with many theists. It's when their beliefs cause harm to minority groups or promote ignorance and/or misinformation that I take issue with them.
On the other hand, it was the magical thinking itself which led to that. Jesus would hate modern Republicans, but he made them possible by giving them the logic-immune framework at the core of their beliefs.
Republicans.
I blame the Iliad.