When God poofed everything into existence, why didn't he make notes on how he accomplished his creation?
If the first book of the old testament is anything to go by (and is in fact god's word) then this god character isn't the sharpest pencil in the box.
He could have at least got stuff with knock on effects in the correct order...
It just makes me wonder how Christians can read it and accept it as truth without question.
Are they really that scared of the sky bully and his threats of an eternal barbecue, or are they not thinking about that and are hoping to be reunited with their loved ones in a better place?
All Greek to me.
It kinda drives me crazy, too. But I guess it makes sense if you're a bronze-age goat-herder with lots of questions and not much ability to answer them. It is kinda interesting that they built on earlier myths, like the "chaos" void (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)) before the official creation of the universe (that part's greek to me as well, probably because it was written in greek) and the fairly common flood myth (maybe inspired from a real flood event, though obviously much more localized)
We're lucky to have been born in an age where a lot more is known about the history of the Earth and cosmos, so naturally, there's a bit of a disconnect.
I think today's Christians just don't know how to think clearly, nor would they care to even if they did. Also, hardly any of them actually read any part of the Bible.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 05, 2022, 12:33:07 AMI think today's Christians just don't know how to think clearly, nor would they care to even if they did. Also, hardly any of them actually read any part of the Bible.
I always have a little Bible refresher when we stay in cheap hotels. Travelodge stick one in the bedside cabinet, always sends me to sleep.
Why does the Old Testament have to be interpreted literally?
Quote from: Shiranu on November 05, 2022, 08:25:28 PMWhy does the Old Testament have to be interpreted literally?
Even if not interpreted literally, there are some messed up lessons in the Bible from a humane or moral perspective, particularly given this is supposed to be divine knowledge.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 05, 2022, 09:49:52 PMEven if not interpreted literally, there are some messed up lessons in the Bible from a humane or moral perspective, particularly given this is supposed to be divine knowledge.
Okay, and what then?
I don't understand what you're asking.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 06, 2022, 12:10:06 AMOkay, and what then?
The 'what then' for me is to relegate the OT (No matter the version) to the land of fiction. And not good fiction, at that.
You're better off getting life advice from Dr. Phil than the Bible, New or Old Testament.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 06, 2022, 01:00:08 AMI don't understand what you're asking.
What does it change if some of it is messed up?
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 06, 2022, 08:11:34 AMThe 'what then' for me is to relegate the OT (No matter the version) to the land of fiction. And not good fiction, at that.
Okay?
Quote from: Shiranu on November 06, 2022, 02:01:01 PMOkay?
So if it is used literally, then I must realize that the people are not ethical or moral--or nice. If it is interpreted then one can make all kinds of claims with no relation to reality and just to gain power. It is interesting to study and learn how and when it developed. Other than that it produces little that is good.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 06, 2022, 02:00:46 PMWhat does it change if some of it is messed up?
The Bible is a collection of stories and stories are how we interpret reality. Narrative is everything. Believing that everyone is damn and the only means of salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior affects how you interact with others. The narrative that you will be judged by God when you die and if you didn't follow the rules of the Bible you will be punished for eternity causes people untold levels of anxiety. The stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how the world works matter. From a humanistic perspective, I consider the Bible to have a lot of bad stories.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 05, 2022, 08:25:28 PMWhy does the Old Testament have to be interpreted literally?
Because it's the word of God.
Of course very few people do interpret it literally and actually follow it's teachings. That would make them monsters.
Instead they read it, ignore the bad bits or interpret them to make the handbook more palatable.
If it's the word, it's the word.. you'd never read a car owners manual and ignore or change the instructions, that'd make the manual useless wouldn't it.
If it's one thing Christian's are good at , it's ignoring everything in the babble ceptin folks getting busy wit each other.
In order to better prepare them for facing a world where a large percentage of the population have an impaired ability to think logically and whose judgment is clouded by superstition, I think that young people should learn about the bible under the guidance of a teacher who challenges them to critically evaluate whether or not what they are reading is bullshit.
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/fc/5d/a3/fc5da36673831b42264d61b4e4eb2dd0.jpg)
Assuming Jesus Christ was the son of God and sent to save humanity from itself, wouldn't it have been better to use his eternal life guiding humanity through the ages to be wiser, kinder, and more reverent rather than spending a few years giving advice and then ascending? Just a thought.
Jesus didn't "sacrifice" himself for crying out loud, he went from a homeless hungry preacher to a god. Sounds like a hell of an upgrade to me.
Quote from: Luther Martini on November 07, 2022, 10:33:31 AMIn order to better prepare them for facing a world where a large percentage of the population have an impaired ability to think logically and whose judgment is clouded by superstition, I think that young people should learn about the bible under the guidance of a teacher who challenges them to critically evaluate whether or not what they are reading is bullshit.
Yep. And they shouldn't have to thank Jesus for lunch.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 07, 2022, 02:02:20 PM(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/fc/5d/a3/fc5da36673831b42264d61b4e4eb2dd0.jpg)
Assuming Jesus Christ was the son of God and sent to save humanity from itself, wouldn't it have been better to use his eternal life guiding humanity through the ages to be wiser, kinder, and more reverent rather than spending a few years giving advice and then ascending? Just a thought.
A very good though. It's a pity that Christians can't see the wood for the trees.
If we grant the Gospel story to be 100% accurate (despite contradictions), I'd say Jesus sacrifice was more about the pain and humiliation rather than his life, per se.
But that still doesn't change the fact that Jesus' "sacrifice" was completely nonsensical. God tortured and killed himself so he could justify forgiving us for existing? That does not follow.
In Lord or the Rings, Boromir sacrifices himself to protect the halflings. His death was for the purpose of saving others. While the halflings were taken prisoner anyway, the logic here is sound. If, however, Boromir dropped on his own sword for no apparent reason, when there was no immediate danger, and we were told it was to save the Hobbits, the logic would not follow. We would ask, "How does falling on his own sword help?"
So, how does Jesus sacrifice help? It doesn't. It only makes sense if you go with God's arbitrary rules, and don't question them at all.
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 07, 2022, 04:56:03 PMGod tortured and killed himself so he could justify forgiving us for existing? That does not follow.
Neither does the idea that mankind needed to be forgiven in the first place.
Many years ago, my wife and I attended a cocktail party where I didn't know anyone except the hosts. I wandered into the den to look at some photos on the wall, and overheard a rather spirited (no pun intended) discussion among some of the other men at the party, all scholarly christian types, regarding original sin. One of them asked me if I had an opinion on original sin, and I said, "sure do. I think that it is the cornerstone of one of the most ingenious and effective marketing schemes ever devised. I mean shit...I'm no scholar, in fact I'm just a salesman, but I know effective marketing when I see it, and if you can get a bunch of people to buy into the idea that they came into this world as sinners doomed to burn in some mystical place that you have invented called Hell, and the only way out is to join your cult, well ... you have created a compelling need, and offered a proprietary solution --- that's power. And given the fact that almost two thousand years later people all over the world still accept this snake oil bullshit as fact is testament to the effectiveness of the program. Marketing, gentlemen, at its most cynical, powerful, and effective." They didn't talk to me the rest of the evening.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 06, 2022, 03:39:45 PMSo if it is used literally, then I must realize that the people are not ethical or moral--or nice.
What does "literally" mean? The Bible is contradictory, so it cannot logically be taken literally.
I'm presuming you mean the "teachings" and generally more Old Testament - in which case... let's take them literally.
----------------------- Prophets summed up, feel free to skip pass if you get the point ;) ----------------------------------------
Amos - "Angry shepherd proclaims that empires that exploit the poor, exploit the legally unprotected, who exploit the power for their own gain are cursed by "God" (Goodness) and are destined to fall."
Solomon - "No matter how holy the king, no matter how great his possessions, if he wavers from the path of Righteousness - if he no longer treats his people in a way that is seen as good - even the greatest of kings will see it all turned to dust if they are not wise."
[This does not even get into the Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes attributed to him and the wisdom within]
Esther - "Woman in power who is compassionate help stops an evil political plot to commit genocide on the Israelite people."
Obadiah - "Killing us, enslaving us, and behaving like a bunch of barbaric assholes is going to bite you in the ass one day."
Micah - "Seriously, did you not listen to the upset goat herder earlier? You have got to stop living so corruptly, exploiting the workers while you live in palaces like gods. It's going to lead to our downfall."
-----------------------------------End of Summaries--------------------------------------
All of these are quite important messages today that are read through a literal translation of just the Old Testament; this doesn't even get into the practical value of preserving a people's history in a mass produced text.
There is no reason to slit the baby's throat as you toss out the dirty bathwater.
Without the Tanakh and Torah... there is no Jewish people, and I think we can at least admit that the world would be a far less pleasant place and far more backwards if that was the case.
QuoteIf it is interpreted then one can make all kinds of claims with no relation to reality and just to gain power.
You can say the same of capitalism and socialism; both have inherent flaws that, when interpreted in negative ways, can become overwhelmingly destructive and damaging.
Hell, you can say the same about anti-theism - but something tells me people here would be a little less appreciative in hearing that their ideology, under certain interpretations, can be used for some of the most inhumane barbarism humans can come up with.
History, unfortunately, does not always couture to our biases.
QuoteOther than that it produces little that is good.
This is an utterly subjective statement, is it not?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 07, 2022, 12:23:20 AMThe Bible is a collection of stories and stories are how we interpret reality. Narrative is everything. Believing that everyone is damn and the only means of salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior affects how you interact with others.
What exactly is the problem with this statement?
The damnation of not accepting Christ's message, purely through a literal sense of Biblical reading and taking into account only afterlife beliefs that would have been common at the time of Christ, is not a bad thing - it's essentially, "Do you really want to spend time in heaven with Stalin and Jeffery Dahlmer?"
QuoteThe narrative that you will be judged by God when you die and if you didn't follow the rules of the Bible you will be punished for eternity causes people untold levels of anxiety.
We don't worry about the law telling you not to speed giving people anxiety - so why should we worry about the law telling people not to sleep with other's partners, to not kill or steal their possessions?
The laws of the Torah and Tanakh are there for those who are in covenant with God - they are just believed to make you a more "pure" person and thus deserving to skip to the end where everyone lives in peace. The 10 Commandments (I know, not Jesus but he did say he wasn't here to change the rules) is pretty much the Gentile and non-Orthodox Jews, "Okay... here is the abridged rules, just live up to these ones." or their own Buddha's, "Noble Eight-fold Path" ... and I really don't think there is much in the 10 Commandments we can get too upset with, is there?
Quote from: ManUfan on November 07, 2022, 04:02:14 AMBecause it's the word of God.
If that doesn't matter to the theist, I don't see why it should matter to the atheist.
QuoteIf it's the word, it's the word.. you'd never read a car owners manual and ignore or change the instructions, that'd make the manual useless wouldn't it.
Again, I find it odd that atheists often are more dogmatic about the Bible having to be taken as the fundamental truth more than any church I have been involved with in the past, and certainly more-so than anyone in public who has ever expressed their Christianity to me (unless you want to count the 2-3 door-to-door converters who got a few words in despite me telling them i'm not interested).
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 07, 2022, 02:02:20 PMAssuming Jesus Christ was the son of God and sent to save humanity from itself, wouldn't it have been better to use his eternal life guiding humanity through the ages to be wiser, kinder, and more reverent rather than spending a few years giving advice and then ascending? Just a thought.
A misunderstanding of eternal life -eternal life of the soul in the world beyond understanding - Jesus the physical entity was not immortal, as made pretty obvious by his death on the cross.
The Essenes in particular, whom Jesus quite likely belong to, were very obsessed with the idea that the body and the soul were two utterly separate entities - and that the soul was trapped within a human body looking to be saved from this objectively shitty world.
Even other Jews thought they cared about that a little too much... but they were some of the earliest recorded little-C communists, so that's pretty cool. Think maybe Amish, Quaker as the post-Christ version of this specific branch and you have a pretty good idea of what they were like - and think about how seriously those groups take the concept of the "soul".
So for them, "eternal life" would very much have nothing to do with this world - they would be quite sickened if it was I think.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 06:43:34 PMWhat does "literally" mean? The Bible is contradictory, so it cannot logically be taken literally.
I'm presuming you mean the "teachings" and generally more Old Testament - in which case... let's take them literally.
----------------------- Prophets summed up, feel free to skip pass if you get the point ;) ----------------------------------------
Amos - "Angry shepherd proclaims that empires that exploit the poor, exploit the legally unprotected, who exploit the power for their own gain are cursed by "God" (Goodness) and are destined to fall."
Solomon - "No matter how holy the king, no matter how great his possessions, if he wavers from the path of Righteousness - if he no longer treats his people in a way that is seen as good - even the greatest of kings will see it all turned to dust if they are not wise."
[This does not even get into the Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes attributed to him and the wisdom within]
Esther - "Woman in power who is compassionate help stops an evil political plot to commit genocide on the Israelite people."
Obadiah - "Killing us, enslaving us, and behaving like a bunch of barbaric assholes is going to bite you in the ass one day."
Micah - "Seriously, did you not listen to the upset goat herder earlier? You have got to stop living so corruptly, exploiting the workers while you live in palaces like gods. It's going to lead to our downfall."
-----------------------------------End of Summaries--------------------------------------
All of these are quite important messages today that are read through a literal translation of just the Old Testament; this doesn't even get into the practical value of preserving a people's history in a mass produced text.
There is no reason to slit the baby's throat as you toss out the dirty bathwater.
Without the Tanakh and Torah... there is no Jewish people, and I think we can at least admit that the world would be a far less pleasant place and far more backwards if that was the case.
By literally, I mean 'literally'--not specifically 'teachings'. Would you consider this to be a teaching or command? "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,". Seems rather barbaric to me.
There are something like 613 commands within the OT. Many are basically a handbook for living in the desert 2000/3000 years ago. Not many apply to today's world. The hugely touted 10 commandments is conflicted. By that I mean they are found in three separate places in the OT and they do not agree with one another. They are not numbered, so the writers of the 10 got to pick them. (These are found in Exodus 20 and in Deut.5) The third place, Exodus 34:10-26. In some versions of the OT, these are numbered. But they are not anywhere near the same as the first two. this set includes commandments such as; Do not make molten gods; keep the feast of unleavened bread; Do not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk--the rest are fun, don't hesitate to look them up. I regard this set as basically nonsense.
Okay, let's not throw out the baby or the bath water. But what is a 'baby' (which I gather is at least kernel of truth)?? Who gets to decide? It is simply a matter of opinion. If you simply want to cherry pick the verses, then I will agree that some of the verses give good advice and some of them read as poetry. But try to get a consensus of which is which. And Rabbis have been at it for thousands of years.
Without the torah, there would be more peace in this world. The big 3 (Jewish, christian and muslim) have brought more destruction than peace to this world--in my opinion. the torah led to the creation of the scriptures of the other two culprits. They are destructive in my opinion. But they are equal in that all of them can be cherry picked to prove anything. Simply look at this country now--white christian nationalism--what the fuck is that if not destructive. And they have cherry picked both the old and new testments of 'prove' they are right.
Yes, preserving a people's history in a written text is of value. But I do not regard the OT as that. If it were not produced as a means of controlling the population, it has certainly been used as such. And a history should be labeled as such, not the Word of God and used as a hammer of submission. And a history should be factual not mainly fiction.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 06:43:34 PMAll of these are quite important messages today that are read through a literal translation of just the Old Testament; this doesn't even get into the practical value of preserving a people's history in a mass produced text.
There is no reason to slit the baby's throat as you toss out the dirty bathwater.
Okay, the Bible has a few good messages. Even the Skeptics' Annotated Bible points that out. And yes, it records a people's history. I have yet to meet a single person who has ever disputed either of these points.
But I'm a bit curious about the "slitting the baby's throat" rhetoric. What is Mike proposing that warrants such a characterization? Did I miss a post advocating genocide or the complete destruction of what is afaik the world's most published book? (a formidable undertaking) Or did he just express disapproval of the main thrust of the work (there are other messages in the Bible that aren't so good, as we all well know), widespread uncritical approval of such stories, and/or deliberate attempts to structure modern societies around what religious people imagine is a "godly" way of life?
Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 07:10:33 PMA misunderstanding of eternal life -eternal life of the soul in the world beyond understanding - Jesus the physical entity was not immortal, as made pretty obvious by his death on the cross.
When you're God you make the rules. If Jesus can physically return from the dead, which is the claim, there is no reason why he should have to stay dead. He is supposed to return, so why not return every hundred years and continue to help people? If Jesus came to Earth to bring humans closer to God, he clearly did a terrible job (you say it is an "objectively shitty world") given all the options at a divine being's disposal.
Seriously though, if there is a divine being I don't believe a human could understand it any more than a virus can understand a human. Of course, nobody wants to hear that if there is a god it
would work in mysterious ways, ways so mysterious they are incomprehensible and a waste of time to consider. The reason God has the emotions of a primate, such as jealousy, which is an emotion that stems from insecurity, is because humans experience it.
People want answers and they want to avoid existential dread. They want to know that something is eternal. They want cosmic justice. They want to not feel alone so they gather together, believe in explanatory stories, and create reassuring rituals-- because they are primates with brains that have evolved to recognize patterns and make predictions. People hate chaos, they hate the unpredictable, they hate impermanence and they create stories about gods because gods provide order, purpose, and something eternal. This is why religion is pervasive.
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him"... And so we did.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 07:05:53 PMIf that doesn't matter to the theist, I don't see why it should matter to the atheist.
Again, I find it odd that atheists often are more dogmatic about the Bible having to be taken as the fundamental truth more than any church I have been involved with in the past, and certainly more-so than anyone in public who has ever expressed their Christianity to me (unless you want to count the 2-3 door-to-door converters who got a few words in despite me telling them i'm not interested).
But wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.
Where would we be without those rules?
Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.
Thank god for Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 10, 2022, 07:10:33 PMThe Essenes in particular, whom Jesus quite likely belong to, were very obsessed with the idea that the body and the soul were two utterly separate entities - and that the soul was trapped within a human body looking to be saved from this objectively shitty world.
You seem to believe Jesus was a real live, actual person. I don't see any independent proof that that is true. From my research, Jesus is a fiction, created by those who wrote and arraigned the bible. Since Jesus is fictional, he can be made to say or do anything. So he can be made to be a member of the Esseses--or the wandering Cynics. The Gospel of Thomas suggests that he was one of the Cynics.
There has been no proof that the 'soul' exists. But if it does according to the christians, then it was created by their perfect god. How can that be anything other than perfect?? So why complain about it???
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 12, 2022, 06:19:34 PMThere has been no proof that the 'soul' exists. But if it does according to the christians, then it was created by their perfect god. How can that be anything other than perfect?? So why complain about it???
Cancer of the soul never killed anyone, maybe god gave our souls a pass?
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 10, 2022, 09:49:13 PMBy literally, I mean 'literally'--not specifically 'teachings'. Would you consider this to be a teaching or command? "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,". Seems rather barbaric to me.
A command; and it does indeed sound barbaric, sounds like good cause to throw it out.
QuoteThere are something like 613 commands within the OT. Many are basically a handbook for living in the desert 2000/3000 years ago. Not many apply to today's world.
So if you don't need it - don't follow it.
I will argue that there is some philosophical use to some though - a lot of them have to do with cleanliness and moral purity (both of which the world arguably could use a lot more of right now), even if they are basic physical acts. These small acts are like exercise that can stimulate moral parts of a person's mind - like telling yourself positive affirmations or getting into a workout routine have greater results than just "me happier" or "muscle bigger".
QuoteBut what is a 'baby' (which I gather is at least kernel of truth)?? Who gets to decide? It is simply a matter of opinion. If you simply want to cherry pick the verses, then I will agree that some of the verses give good advice and some of them read as poetry. But try to get a consensus of which is which. And Rabbis have been at it for thousands of years.
No one decides the truth, no more than anyone decides calculus; it simply is.
The works that you feel take you closer to the truth - be it through your own intuition or through rational observations - take them.
The works that you feel don't bring you closer to the truth - be it material or philosophically - discard them.
The truth doesn't require consensus; those who would know it wouldn't care.
You call it "cherry picking", I call it getting rid of the barbaric, idiotic, and outright outlandish bits so that I can appreciate that which has amazing value even thousands of years after it was written.
QuoteWithout the torah, there would be more peace in this world. The big 3 (Jewish, christian and muslim) have brought more destruction than peace to this world--in my opinion. the torah led to the creation of the scriptures of the other two culprits. They are destructive in my opinion. But they are equal in that all of them can be cherry picked to prove anything. Simply look at this country now--white christian nationalism--what the fuck is that if not destructive. And they have cherry picked both the old and new testments of 'prove' they are right.
You don't think other books would have taken their place? Other ideologies?
Humanity had "discovered" secularism as a normal way of being, of a state of expressing your self to the world without being judged for it, and what happened within a few years? Nationalism springs to life; replace religion with the state, or with your race!
Social Darwinism replaced the laws of the Bible; those antiquated old things had no place in an industrial world! Kids working factories? Poppy cock, a good English lad can take that smog no problem, the doctor told me so himself! Good lungs e' said, comes from our greater blood or somethin!
Power cannot exist in a vacuum, suspended in space - as long as it exists, hands will constantly be grasping, clawing, tearing at that baton till their fingers bleed... and this will only drive them into a deeper frenzy to control it.
That power doesn't go away if we *poofed* every last trace of religion off the face of the Earth right now, bleached people's brains of it ever existing - someone's hands would grab it in a millisecond, and things stay exactly the same.
The utopia yall envision doesn't exist; this is a material universe, and it sucks ass. We certainly need to try and get everyone to actually use their heads, but let's be honest... you can only be so optimistic about that ever happening without being certifiably just as crazy as a Catholic nun.
QuoteYes, preserving a people's history in a written text is of value. But I do not regard the OT as that. If it were not produced as a means of controlling the population, it has certainly been used as such. And a history should be labeled as such, not the Word of God and used as a hammer of submission. And a history should be factual not mainly fiction.
"History should be subject to my stamp of approval, and if it does not fit my stamp of approval than any value it could ever have is therefor null and void, en perpetuity, until the last black hole has collapsed upon itself and the universe enters the True Abyss."
Shiranu, you said this in your last post: "History should be subject to my stamp of approval, and if it does not fit my stamp of approval than any value it could ever have is therefor null and void, en perpetuity, until the last black hole has collapsed upon itself and the universe enters the True Abyss."
I do not remember saying anything like this. But I have the feeling this is what you are leaning towards. You really, really, really like the OT and all of it's numerous renditions. I too, find it interesting and a good set of documents to give some serious study of. I have not studied it anywhere near as much as you have, but what I have learned is that it is a mix of some history, some actual places and people, but for the most part it is fiction. I find some of it poetic and some of it has philosophical value. But it is hard to sometimes untangle the fact from fiction and most of what I have found is fictional. It's god is barbaric beyond belief; few of his commands are worth considering; some are almost by mistake--if one shoots a 100 pellets toward a target, a few are bound to it. I do not venerate it in any way, shape or form.
I find all religions that have a rigid hierarchy to be destructive. All of those that willingly follow them are also dangerous. But not all who are 'religious' are dangerous and some are actually helpful. An example for me is Kahlil Gibran and his The Prophet--I have read and deeply considered his messages for most of my life. Not all religions nor all parts of religions are harmful. But I see the overall effect of religion to be destructive.
QuoteBut it is hard to sometimes untangle the fact from fiction and most of what I have found is fictional.
I know - that's the problem; I realise it's fiction too. Most people do, except for the really nutty nutters. But that's okay; a good message is allowed to exist within a "fantasy" world - like Disney for desert-dwelling Jews.
Quotesome are almost by mistake--if one shoots a 100 pellets toward a target, a few are bound to it.
Seriously, at the very least look at the plot summaries (don't even have to read the books themselves) of the Books of Isaiah of Amos; two of my favorites in the Bible. The Old Testament is so much more than Mose's Pentateuch.
"Isaiah" - one of the three authors of the books, believed to be the original prophet, but... cries out as he looks at the injustice that his own people do to one another.
Ah! Those who enact unjust statutes,
who write oppressive decrees,
Depriving the needy of judgment,
robbing my people's poor of justice,
Making widows their plunder,
and orphans their prey! (10:1-2). Amos, a simple shepherd looking at his nation and crying out condemnations of the greed, corruption, and just degeneracy that society, has this to say of our current day Christians...
Quote"Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light." Amos - 5:18
I think a couple of our Bible-thumping Congressmen, Senators and even Supreme Justices might want to actually take a second look at some of the stuff their Bible says.
But of course, that Christianity has literally nothing to do with the Bible - I think we both can agree on that, right? It's just a means of control... and when the Good Word fails, ol' reliable racism and nationalism kicks to overdrive.
Evil is evil; it really is as childishly simple as that. It doesn't have borders, it doesn't have genes, it doesn't have holy sects... it just exists. We can attempt to define it, but it's a natural force - it doesn't care one way or another, it simply is.
QuoteI find all religions that have a rigid hierarchy to be destructive. All of those that willingly follow them are also dangerous. But not all who are 'religious' are dangerous and some are actually helpful. An example for me is Kahlil Gibran and his The Prophet--I have read and deeply considered his messages for most of my life. Not all religions nor all parts of religions are harmful. But I see the overall effect of religion to be destructive.
I absolutely agree on the first part; that's probably one of Judaism's biggest strengths - it was so dispersed and factionalized that no one could seize all the power... be it for theological and political reasons or just the simple fact that they lived half a world apart. They were forced by almost necessity to have little religious power.
Gibran is very much one of my biggest inspirations, absolutely love his works and he is who got me into the Sufis and other M.E. mystic sects - from there learning how much they overlapped with Eastern Orthodox mysticism and Buddhism/Taoism. While books like "The Prince" are required reading in school, books like "The Prophet" get forgotten.
Absolutely throw out the majority of institutions, but I just don't think the works themselves need to go - reformed? Absolutely, and that's where my problem is - there does exist a large (I would hope, and probably argue, majority) of reformed Christians, Muslims and Jews... but as much as we like to think the world has changed in the last hundred years... it really hasn't. It hasn't really changed much in the last 3000, from what I'm learning of my own people's heritage.
Shitty people will always hold the power, because power is their heroin that they are chemically dependent on. Change the name, change the system, but power is power - and the only people who want "that" level of power are the mentally deranged and morally destitute.
That's not changed yet, and I doubt it will - selfishness is bred into our little ape brain from childhood nowadays.
Quote from: ManUfan on November 12, 2022, 05:05:55 PMBut wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.
Where would we be without those rules?
Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.
Thank god for Jesus Christ.
Thankfully, we're not living by the Bible's barbaric rules, where a rapist's punishment is having to pay the father for his damaged goods, and everything else is punishable by death.
Quote from: ManUfan on November 12, 2022, 05:05:55 PMBut wait.. Objective morality!!
Where does your morality come from without the Bible. The set of rules laid out by the creator of everything for us all to follow.
Where would we be without those rules?
Without the Bible and the teachings of Christ we'd be destroying the planet, waging war, and contributing to the end of our existence.
Thank god for Jesus Christ.
Same tired, worn out argument. A) what good is this "morality" when the followers only adhere to half the rules?
War? You must have been educated in a very quiet sparse area. Christianity was spread by war. Without all those different sects of Christian's killing each other in the name of the lord, why we would have had a peaceful world, at least a whole lot less killing.
But the whole of this argument is a perfect example of the arrogance and ego of the so-called Christian. To not understand, or care that people lived all over the world before jebus came to be known and they had very good cultures where people treated each other quite well. The rules for "civilized" behavior did not come from god, "god" took the rules already shown to work and called them his own.
Lastly, you should thank the Jews for Jesus, without them killing him your religion wouldn't even exist.LOL..
Quote from: aitm on November 20, 2022, 07:22:46 AMSame tired, worn out argument. A) what good is this "morality" when the followers only adhere to half the rules?
War? You must have been educated in a very quiet sparse area. Christianity was spread by war. Without all those different sects of Christian's killing each other in the name of the lord, why we would have had a peaceful world, at least a whole lot less killing.
But the whole of this argument is a perfect example of the arrogance and ego of the so-called Christian. To not understand, or care that people lived all over the world before jebus came to be known and they had very good cultures where people treated each other quite well. The rules for "civilized" behavior did not come from god, "god" took the rules already shown to work and called them his own.
Lastly, you should thank the Jews for Jesus, without them killing him your religion wouldn't even exist.LOL..
Psst. He's being sarcastic. Check the OP. lol