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News & General Discussion => News Stories and Current Events => Topic started by: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM

Title: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM
 Being a materialist and a mild determinist, I do sometimes wonder if these people deserve to be mocked. Nurses often report that they beg for the vax once they get the grim prognosis. They don't even know how a vaccine works. Do these people really even have a chance or choice?

I liken it to ghetto kids that end up in jail. The odds are overwhelming. The future is often portrayed as being unknowable. I think that maybe individual cases are unpredictable, yes... but a properly calculated probability will always play out over time, just like a flipped coin will approach 50% as N approached that sideways 8.

Are these people as much of a victim as anyone during this pandemic?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 28, 2021, 01:15:55 PM
I'm frustrated by anti-vaxers but I try not to bash people. One reason is that there is an active disinformation campaign targeting these people and what should be a matter of public health has been politicized and polarized. Many people are fearful, frustrated, and exhausted and me waving my finger at people is not going to improve the situation. I'm not changing my mind on policy though-- if your employer says get vaccinated or be fired and you lose your job, that's your choice.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: the_antithesis on December 28, 2021, 01:25:32 PM
I'm just quietly waiting for them to all die so the rest of us can get back to our lives.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 28, 2021, 06:41:48 PM
The anti-vaxxer should be put into a bubble on a sidewalk and left to die.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
There is a difference between someone who opposes the vax and someone who opposes the mandate.  I am severely allergic to the word "mandatory" yet I believe in vaccination.  Where do I fit on your spectrum?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 07:39:45 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
There is a difference between someone who opposes the vax and someone who opposes the mandate.  I am severely allergic to the word "mandatory" yet I believe in vaccination.  Where do I fit on your spectrum?
But you have had several mandatory vaccines, yes? Be glad you didn't have to worry about polio growing up because people understood how to eradicate it. I know someone who put off their 'optional' tetanus shot. No offense there, Jesus (LOL) but that was some real suffering. Too bad he wasn't the son of a god.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 08:33:12 PM
You didn't answer my question.  I believe in vaccines, I believe they are a good idea, but I don't believe in "mandatory".  This covers my position on many issues, where no matter how good the idea is I still don't believe it should be mandatory.

There are those out there who believe it is good it should be mandatory and if it is bad it should be forbidden.  I believe that no matter how good it is it shouldn't be mandatory and no matter how bad it is it shouldn't be forbidden.  (No irrelevant asides about rape or murder please, you know I'm talking about either solitary or consensual actions).

So given you are talking about Anti-Vax/Maskers, where do you classify pro-Vax/anti-Mandate?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on December 28, 2021, 09:13:16 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
Where do I fit on your spectrum?

It depends on your position on other things. For example, do you preach my house my rules until your employer tells you to wear a mask and get vaxxed or find another job then bitch about mandates and how dare they?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 10:02:36 PM
I am OK with all vaccine mandates as issued by the CDC thus far. The benefit to risk ratios are astronomically beneficial. If C19 was added to the list, so be it. There are plethora of mandated rules, laws and citizen's requirements such as selective service that need enforcement for obvious reasons. It is what us apes do..cooperate to survive. Its kinda our thing.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 29, 2021, 07:58:06 AM
I wear a facade of compassion for anti-vaxers around my friends, but I don't take one ounce of responsibility for their plight, and no, I don't care if they get sick or die.  They are fucking up everything, including their precious economy.  But I might feel different if they weren't so self righteous about their fucking rights while they trample on everyone else.  And I don't give them a pass because they are being fed misinformation. People choose the information they consume.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 08:52:18 AM
A family member is an ER doc and is incredibly traumatized by what he is seeing daily now.
I only have sympathy because some media outlets (and ELECTED OFFICIALS) are feeding people abject fucking garbage lies about Covid.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 08:55:04 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
There is a difference between someone who opposes the vax and someone who opposes the mandate.  I am severely allergic to the word "mandatory" yet I believe in vaccination.  Where do I fit on your spectrum?
You don't get a pass. Look beyond the end of your own nose and realize that this sort of stubbornness has deleterious effects on the population at large.
The resistance to vaccines has zero basis in anything but lies. There is no reason not to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 29, 2021, 09:13:19 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 08:33:12 PM
...  I believe in vaccines, I believe they are a good idea, but I don't believe in "mandatory". ...

Then you do not understand how vaccines work.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 29, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
Quote from: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 08:55:04 AM
You don't get a pass. Look beyond the end of your own nose and realize that this sort of stubbornness has deleterious effects on the population at large.
The resistance to vaccines has zero basis in anything but lies. There is no reason not to get vaccinated.

But I'm not resisting vaccines.  I'm resisting mandates.

The thinking is that one either resists both or resists neither.  That thinking is incorrect.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 01:44:35 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 29, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
But I'm not resisting vaccines.  I'm resisting mandates.

The thinking is that one either resists both or resists neither.  That thinking is incorrect.
I am aware. I am not thinking along that vein and that is not what I said.

Whether you personally are not vaccinated or you are vaccinated is not germane to this discussion.

When I said you don't get a pass, I meant you collectively as in all of us who resist vaccine mandates, not you specifically.
We are all in this fucking boat like it or not. Everyone should suck it up or we all sink. Looks like that's exactly what's happening now.

We used to talk about herd immunity. Somehow that's not in the lexicon anymore because resistance to the vaccine has prevented that handily. Nobody has an excuse not to get the jab. Okay, maybe like 15 people in the country might. Being unable to get the vaccine has become the new gluten-free diet.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Draconic Aiur on December 29, 2021, 02:39:29 PM
It's like my brother said. It should never be mandatory, but that doesnt excuse people from acting like idiots
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 29, 2021, 05:25:38 PM
I'm all for shooting anyone who refuses the vaccine and remains in the general population. Find a cave in the Andes, I won't shoot you.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 08:02:54 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 28, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
There is a difference between someone who opposes the vax and someone who opposes the mandate.  I am severely allergic to the word "mandatory" yet I believe in vaccination.  Where do I fit on your spectrum?
You asked, I answer: You're either sorely misinformed, or your priorities are really fucked up.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 29, 2021, 08:04:52 PM
I needed certain vaccines in order to attend graduate school. I would have suffered consequences had I not complied. Up to me to decide what I wanted. Refusing the vaccines has no basis in logic other than obstinacy. It's clearly safe and effective.

If you act like a idiot, you're treated like one. That's life. Oh well. Sucks to be you.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 29, 2021, 10:16:35 PM
I just wanna let you guys know that I'm all for seatbelts, I just don't think they should be MANDATORY.  Because freedom.  *sound of people flying through the windshield at 100 freedom units*
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 29, 2021, 11:30:50 PM
I hate the fact that it is mandatory to stop at the 'stop' sign.  I hate that it is mandatory to put in 246 days of teaching each year.  I hate that it is mandatory that I stop when the railroad crossbeams come down.  I hate it is mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.  I hate that it is mandatory that for the lights to work I have to use the on/off switch.  I hate that it is mandatory that I have to pay for shit in the stores.  Or that I have to pay whatever price they put on it.  I just hate mandatory...................
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 29, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply does not, or at least should not, have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Dark Lightning on December 30, 2021, 12:16:42 AM
People in this country should be exposed to an education that discusses the risks of both the disease and risk of the vaccine, whichever disease it is for. The way it is in this country, there is a serious epidemic of ignorance, which isn't helping with the problem. Notwithstanding the outright lying and disinformation that is being spread. That disinformation is criminal, and would be treated that way in many other countries. Freedom of speech is killing USians left and right.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on December 30, 2021, 02:28:26 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 29, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply put does not and should not have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.

As far as I know the government has not forced anyone to get a vaccine without their consent. They have made it a condition of employment, but that isn't forcing somebody to do something without their consent. Get the jab or find another job is a choice. 

Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 30, 2021, 12:16:42 AM
People in this country should be exposed to an education that discusses the risks of both the disease and risk of the vaccine, whichever disease it is for. The way it is in this country, there is a serious epidemic of ignorance, which isn't helping with the problem. Notwithstanding the outright lying and disinformation that is being spread. That disinformation is criminal, and would be treated that way in many other countries. Freedom of speech is killing USians left and right.

First off our government is not above lying to us. If you don't believe that I feel bad for you.

Having said that, part of the problem as I see it is some of the misinformation being spread is being generated by the government, and they aren't doing enough to fix the problem. Take a look at this:

(https://i.imgur.com/UH3Kie8.png)

Most here probably know the NVIC is a shit organization, but the data they posted came straight from VAERS, a government database implemented to track vaccine related health treads. I downloaded the VAERS data on 12/21, created a database, imported the vax data from 2020 and 2021, and got the following results.

(https://i.imgur.com/hJM52si.png)

On 12/21/21 the VAERS database says that 11,689 people in the US died in 2020 and 2021 after reporting adverse side effects for receiving a vaccine. 11,036 of those reports were related to the Covid vaccines. Now the government attaches all kinds of disclaimers to this data. Starting with if anything it is underreported. Antivaxers latch onto this shit like a pitbull on a T-bone. Conformation bias keeps them from looking at facts that might mitigate how bad this looks like most of these people did not die as a result of the vaccines because that data is not published.

Most people can look at the data and understand the vaccine is safer than the virus.

(https://i.imgur.com/QqI9GE8.png)

Even after adding 20,000 probably didn't happen vaccine deaths.

(https://i.imgur.com/lIWll8g.png)

But if you are a 30 something Trumper that has already had COVID and suffered little to no long term ill effects like the vast majority of people that get the virus, and the government you hate tells you get the vax or else, I can see where they would be pissed.

Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:46:57 AM
Quote
As far as I know the government has not forced anyone to get a vaccine without their consent. They have made it a condition of employment, but that isn't forcing somebody to do something without their consent. Get the jab or find another job is a choice.

"You don't HAVE to get it, you can just starve to death if you don't."
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 30, 2021, 05:43:03 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 29, 2021, 11:56:19 PM
I have to agree with Jsaon on this; I am personally triple jabbed (only because of my grandmother) but the government simply does not, or at least should not, have the authority to tell people they have to have a medical procedure done to their body without their consent.
You don't seem to understand reasons for mandates.  In addition, you and Jason seem to have an idiosyncratic definition of freedom.  And being so deeply principled in your own beliefs, you advocate disregard for public safety.  Why the fuck should I be required to stop at a red light!?  Well, I don't have to.  Of course I might lose my driver's license, but that's OK because I can come to the forum and bitch about it, and I'll still drive my car without a license.  Does that fit our definition of freedom?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 30, 2021, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:46:57 AM
"You don't HAVE to get it, you can just starve to death if you don't."
This is an exaggeration.  You don't have to starve to death if you don't want a vaccination.  You can still find employment somewhere else.  For example, you could move to South Dakota and be a bartender in Sturgis for the motor cycle rally.  No one would care about whether you are vaccinated there.  See, there are always alternatives to starvation.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 07:55:05 AM
On the flip side, having to work cheek-by-jowl with a plague bearer and risking not only your life, but your family's lives because some halfwit decided that mandatory childhood vaccinations are fine but this vaccine in particular is part of some grand conspiracy by the government and somehow violates freedom is not exactly a pleasant experience.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 30, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 29, 2021, 11:30:50 PM
I hate the fact that it is mandatory to stop at the 'stop' sign.  I hate that it is mandatory to put in 246 days of teaching each year.  I hate that it is mandatory that I stop when the railroad crossbeams come down.  I hate it is mandatory to drive on the right side of the road.  I hate that it is mandatory that for the lights to work I have to use the on/off switch.  I hate that it is mandatory that I have to pay for shit in the stores.  Or that I have to pay whatever price they put on it.  I just hate mandatory...................
Don't usually quote myself.  But--mandatory is just another word for freedom (I can hear Janis Joplin singing that).  It is mandatory to have the measles vaccine, and for small pox, chicken pox, tetanus,  cholera, and on and on.  I am free of those diseases.  There are thousands of driving laws that are mandatory.  There are rules and regs about our work.  Our lives are full of mandatory.  And rightly so.  All govts have them; all societies have them.  It is mandatory if one wants a safe and sane society.  All govts, everywhere and everywhen, have mandatories.  All.  Without them, there is only choas and the mandatories still exist, for whoever is the mightiest makes them.   
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 10:07:43 AM
It's best when people are offered a choice and interventions need not be "all or nothing" or rigid. There is no ideal intervention in a situation as complex as a global pandemic and everything comes at a cost. All the negative consequences of the pandemic including deaths, "long haulers" who have ongoing symptoms post-infection, job loss, business closures, travel restrictions, isolation, mental stress, and such means we as a society need to temporarily take measures we would not normally consider, such as vaccination mandates, because not taking these measures leads to even worse consequences. Everyone wants the pandemic to end and the disagreement is how to best make that happen. I'm not willing to hear arguments that the pandemic is not real or that the COVID vaccines are not effective-- 93% of people with COVID in the ICU where I work are unvaccinated in a county where 83% of residents have at least one dose. To the people who are against vaccine mandates-- What should be done to increase vaccination rates or to end this pandemic? The "freedom" to move about society unvaccinated comes at an enormous cost.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 10:36:50 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 10:07:43 AMIt's best when people are offered a choice and interventions need not be "all or nothing" or rigid.
Ideally, people would just make rational choices based on solid information and we wouldn't even need to talk about this stuff because it'd be over.  Unfortunately, humans are disturbingly inhuman a lot of the time.  Some of that you can chalk up to bad actors spewing disinformation and borderline intentionally trying to get as many fellow Americans killed as possible (these people tend to call themselves patriots).  Some of it is stubbornness or pride or unrealistic beliefs or whatever.

Like traffic, you can't just let people do whatever they want and hope for the best.  If people were just driving their cars off a cliff, I wouldn't in principle have a problem with that.  You want to off yourself, I won't stop you.  But the reality is that they're far more likely to crash into other cars, and whole families are in each car.  As the saying goes, your freedom ends at my face.

People have tried lots of stuff, like lotteries or free concerts for the vaccinated (the carrot approach) or disadvantaging being unvaccinated (the stick approach).  Unfortunately, to get the most people looking after themselves and each other, you pretty much have to mandate it (insert sad commentary on the nature of humanity here).  The data doesn't lie: mandated masks alone gives a ~25% reduction in covid cases/deaths VS unmandated.

I work with a lady who is as dumb as a bag of rocks.  Put off getting the shot for over a year.  Recently, she finally got the shot.  You know why?  It was mandatory.  No other reason.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 30, 2021, 12:04:55 PM
If being pro-vax but anti-madate makes me anti-vax, then I guess the part of the equation that the opposition likes most is the mandate, and that it is a vax that is mandated is secondary.  The important point is to mandate something, anything, so that there is something mandated.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 30, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 30, 2021, 12:04:55 PM
the part of the equation that the opposition likes most is the mandate, and that it is a vax that is mandated is secondary.  The important point is to mandate something, anything, so that there is something mandated.
I'm at a total loss to understand how you process information.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 12:24:11 PM
QuoteWhy the fuck should I be required to stop at a red light!?

A stop light isn't taking away your bodily autonomy, nor is a seatbelt (which is also don't think should really be mandatory).
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on December 30, 2021, 12:25:54 PM
I think this 'medical freedom' nonsense is a largely a misplaced attempt to regain control by people who are barely treading water. Solving problems that are not really problems gives them that rush of accomplishment and also being part of a group with special knowledge. The conspiracies are all about 'issues' that are so terrible that their own real-life issues seem to fade away in contrast. Who would not want to save the children? When after years...no predictions occur, they get depressed.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 12:32:44 PM
I don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body... and now that they know they can abuse that right even more than they did before, it's only going to creep more and more in that direction.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 30, 2021, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 12:32:44 PM
I don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body... and now that they know they can abuse that right even more than they did before, it's only going to creep more and more in that direction.
The govt tells us what to do with our bodies all the time.  It told me to put my body on the line when I was drafted for Nam.  It told me to get a whole slew of shots when drafted--and when going to school.  It tells me that my body must be strapped in when driving.  In the case of keeping diseases at bay, the govt has a critical right to tell you to get treated or vaccinated.  Because you don't want a vaccine puts me and mine at an unnecessary risk.  Smoking, for decades was deemed a personal activity and dangerous only to the smoker.  We since learned that is not so--your smoking impacts not just you but everybody around you.  Even if there was not a govt in place, somebody would be telling you what to do with your body--it is a condition of human life.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 01:16:06 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 12:32:44 PMI don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

Also:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-history-of-vaccine-mandates-in-america-11631890699 (link without paywall)

Fun fact: my high school (a government institution) mandated that students come in and get a meningitis shot because there was a meningitis outbreak.  Currently, that stuff is mandated. (https://www.ncdhhs.gov/news/press-releases/2020/07/24/new-immunization-rule-protect-students-meningitis-takes-effect-2020-21-school-year)  No one batted an eye because right-wing pundits didn't whine about it on TV.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 01:26:36 PM
Many employers, including my own, charge employees who choose to use tobacco products more for health insurance. Perhaps people who refuse to receive vaccinations should be financially responsible for any COVID-related illnesses they incur or insurance companies could increase the premiums for people who choose not to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 02:11:41 PM
QuoteIt told me to put my body on the line when I was drafted for Nam.

Which I fully believe the draft should be abolished.

QuoteIt tells me that my body must be strapped in when driving.

And while I don't think that should be a law, I cant believe you are still comparing wearing a strap over your chest, which literally does nothing to physically alter you, to a medical procedure that does.

QuoteSmoking, for decades was deemed a personal activity and dangerous only to the smoker.

And it should be left up to the business to decide if they allow it or not.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 02:12:03 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 01:16:06 PM
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html)

Also:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-history-of-vaccine-mandates-in-america-11631890699 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-history-of-vaccine-mandates-in-america-11631890699) (link without paywall)

Fun fact: my high school (a government institution) mandated that students come in and get a meningitis shot because there was a meningitis outbreak.  Currently, that stuff is mandated. (https://www.ncdhhs.gov/news/press-releases/2020/07/24/new-immunization-rule-protect-students-meningitis-takes-effect-2020-21-school-year)  No one batted an eye because right-wing pundits didn't whine about it on TV.

I figured someone would bring that up, and I am opposed to it as well.


This has literally nothing to do with right-wing/left-wing politics, considering I am probably the furthest left here. It has to do with the fact that we have a strongman government who only derives it's power from having the biggest guns in the land, and by accepting they have some legitimacy in dictating what you can or cant do with your body gives them full legitimacy to do that.

I personally don't believe in that legitimacy of their rule at all, so I oppose the legitimacy of them dictating my body by default.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 30, 2021, 03:51:28 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 02:12:03 PM
It has to do with the fact that we have a strongman government who only derives it's power from having the biggest guns in the land, and by accepting they have some legitimacy in dictating what you can or cant do with your body gives them full legitimacy to do that.
If the government really was that powerful for that reason, we would have a nation wide mandate.  But we have a democracy, which while currently threatened by the Trump movement, still keeps government responsible to the people, and that includes the knuckle draggers, Trumpers, and Texans who want to have a mandate that you can't have a mandate.  Mandates are by consensus, well by popularity actually, which in this case we do not have.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 03:53:24 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 02:12:03 PM
I personally don't believe in that legitimacy of their rule at all, so I oppose the legitimacy of them dictating my body by default.

"The government can't tell me what to do" does not address the problems associated with this pandemic. Nobody likes being forced to do something they would rather not, or even something they would normally choose of their own accord. Are you proposing that individuals decide for themselves whether to be vaccinated or wear masks or social distance and that society just accept that more people are going to be sick and die? I would be more in agreement with your position of individual autonomy if we were not discussing a communicable disease, if this was something that only affected the individual. I prefer the consequences of people being coerced into taking this vaccine to minimize all of the terrible consequences of this pandemic than the consequences of protecting the bodily autonomy of individuals.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:54:37 PM
QuoteAre you proposing that individuals decide for themselves whether to be vaccinated or wear masks or social distance and that society just accept that more people are going to be sick and die?

Yes, if the only alternative is that the government forces them to do it.


QuoteI prefer the consequences of people being coerced into taking [size=78%]this [/size]vaccine to minimize all of the terrible consequences of [size=78%]this [/size]pandemic than the consequences of protecting the bodily autonomy of individuals.

But that's not what it's really about; that is just a symptom of a much larger problem that is an essentially ruling class that minimally represents us at best can coerce, by brute force, the people bellow them into doing whatever they deem acceptable - up to the point of dictating what we do with our own bodies, literally the most fundamental aspect of being human.

Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:54:37 PM
Yes, if the only alternative is that the government forces them to do it.

For better or worse, because we live in a capitalist system and because humans are social creatures that respond to social pressure there are other means of coercion.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 04:20:24 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 03:54:37 PM
But that's not what it's really about; that is just a symptom of a much larger problem that is an essentially ruling class that minimally represents us at best can coerce, by brute force, the people bellow them into doing whatever they deem acceptable - up to the point of dictating what we do with our own bodies, literally the most fundamental aspect of being human.

A ruling class forcing people to following rules may be your primary concern but my concerns regarding this pandemic are not only about coercion. Coercion is one factor among many that need to be considered when addressing this problem. From my perspective, the goal should be to minimize the negative consequences of the pandemic and minimizing coercion is one concern among many. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying what you are describing is a broader issue and I tend to be pragmatic.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 04:43:24 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 02:12:03 PMI figured someone would bring that up, and I am opposed to it as well.
Yeah, well, someone died from that meningitis outbreak and I'm fairly certain that person's family would disagree with you.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 04:43:24 PM
Yeah, well, someone died from that meningitis outbreak and I'm fairly certain that person's family would disagree with you.

And that's fine; I'm not telling them how to live their life.


But they were the ones who chose not to get vaccinated/vaccinate their child, so be angry at the parents instead of being angry at everyone else, at absolute strangers, and demand that the government force these strangers to do things without their consent.


I can point out America's long history of not upholding the First Amendment; that doesn't make it right, it just makes it a long history.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 30, 2021, 04:20:24 PMA ruling class forcing people to following rules may be your primary concern but my concerns regarding this pandemic are not only about coercion. Coercion is one factor among many that need to be considered when addressing this problem. From my perspective, the goal should be to minimize the negative consequences of the pandemic and minimizing coercion is one concern among many. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying what you are describing is a broader issue and I tend to be pragmatic.
You're putting it much more diplomatically and gently than I ever would.

We're closing on a million dead.  Almost every aspect of my life has been disrupted over the...sheesh, almost two years now.  I've had a close relative go into major surgery to a hospital nearly overloaded with covid patients and I couldn't be there because they weren't taking visitors so I worried at home instead.  And even though my family has been vaccinated and careful, some of them have gotten it and it nearly sent two of them to the hospital.  Every day that I show up for work, I wonder if today's going to be the day that I get something that I pass on to the very vulnerable older people in my family as well as sets off my own asthma.  And I've had to stare at nose-maskers and people who for whatever reason passed on the vaccine and wonder if their carelessness is going to doom someone in my family, me included.

Who thinks I really give a fig if some people feel "bullied" by the big bad gobermint vaccine mandates?

Look, I've tried to be patient and charitable to these sorts of people, but after a year of misery and death, my charity has run dry.  I'm sick of this pandemic.  I'm sick of its accompanying disinfo campaign.  I'm sick of seeing dead people on my feed.  I'm sick of worrying that someone in my family is going to join them.  And most of all, I'm sick of a million and one excuses not do the right thing and the smart thing to save lives.  Those people can stuff their excuses.  They need to either get with the program or GTFO.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 05:27:58 PM
If you're vaccinated, you literally have nothing to worry about.

Vaccinated people just need to go back to life as normal, and if you haven't been jabbed yet suffer the consequences.

Instead the current mandates are only prolonging the pandemic by incentivizing people to not go back to normal or limiting business operations.

You want pragmatic? If you don't want anymore pandemic, get the government out of it.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 30, 2021, 05:48:13 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 05:27:58 PM
If you're vaccinated, you literally have nothing to worry about.

Vaccinated people just need to go back to life as normal, and if you haven't been jabbed yet suffer the consequences.

Instead the current mandates are only prolonging the pandemic by incentivizing people to not go back to normal or limiting business operations.

You want pragmatic? If you don't want anymore pandemic, get the government out of it.
I can't agree with that. Vaccinated people are still getting sick, especially the vulnerable ones. They can also infect other people. We definitely need to worry about this, all of us, vaccinated or not.

I am curious about your reasoning as to why the current mandates would prolong the pandemic.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 05:55:21 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 05:27:58 PM
If you're vaccinated, you literally have nothing to worry about.
What if I told you that this pandemic has lasted so long (three guess as to why) that there are now variants that can be a serious problem even for people who have been vaccinated?  Especially, if say, it's been a while since they got their last jab and they came down with one of these variants just days before their scheduled booster?  Let's say they accidentally gave it to someone who's vulnerable.  Pretend that's not hypothetical.

QuoteVaccinated people just need to go back to life as normal
They can and largely have, and that's fine.  And if that was all that was going on, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

QuoteInstead the current mandates are only prolonging the pandemic by incentivizing people to not go back to normal or limiting business operations.

You want pragmatic? If you don't want anymore pandemic, get the government out of it.
Shir, DAFUQ are you smoking?!  I was half-joking before, but now I seriously suspect that some disinfo outlet is rotting your brain.

Look, this stuff isn't rocket surgery.  More % vaccinated = quicker return to normal, less cases/deaths.  Mandates increase vaccination rates. (https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20211110/covid-vaccine-mandates-working).  So saying that vaccine mandates prolong the pandemic - unless you can back that up with facts, and I very much doubt you can (and facts seem suspiciously lacking in general in your arguments so far) - comes across as dubious at best.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 06:05:54 PM
QuoteWhat if I told you that this pandemic has lasted so long (three guess as to why) that there are now variants that can be a serious problem even for people who have been vaccinated?

QuoteCompared to those who are unvaccinated, a small share (15%) of hospital admissions for COVID-19 between June and September involve people who were fully vaccinated against the disease.

It also finds that fewer breakthrough COVID-19 hospitalizations included COVID-related respiratory complications or treatments, suggesting fully vaccinated patients hospitalized with breakthrough COVID-19 may have been more likely to be hospitalized for unrelated reasons.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/characteristics-of-vaccinated-patients-hospitalized-with-covid-19-breakthrough-infections/ (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/characteristics-of-vaccinated-patients-hospitalized-with-covid-19-breakthrough-infections/)

So AT BEST it's 15% of hospitalized are vaccinated, however the vast majority of them are people who went in with no symptoms for Covid and instead were tested as a preauction and found to be carrying; if we are looking at historical trends that means it's probably about a 1% or less of vaccinated individuals face any serious complication, which is true of basically any vaccine.

Personally, I don't think that's enough to warrant expanding government powers or spend my life wringing my hands and living in fear over, no more than I live in fear of the flu after getting a shot.

QuoteWhat if I told you that this pandemic has lasted so long (three guess as to why) that there are now variants that can be a serious problem even for people who have been vaccinated?

At the cost of expanding government power, which is not a reasonable trade-off when the vaccinated are virtually immune and the only people who are getting sick are people too stupid to get jabbed by now.

QuoteSo saying that vaccine mandates prolong the pandemic...

When the government mandates that businesses have to operate at reduced capacity or cannot open due to surges, the negative effects of the pandemic are extended; negative effects such as increases in consumer goods that aren't going to go down anytime soon, even after the pandemic ends, as companies will now realize they can charge that much and get away with it.

It hurts production, it hurts prices, it hurts consumers... and what good has it done? Countries with strict mandates still have massive breakouts & have traded away their rights. States like Texas and Florida, most of the south with some of the lowest vax rates, also have amongst the lowest per-100 infection rates.

That's not some news outlets statistics, that's the CDC... who to be fair have been full of shit for most of the pandemic.


https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 06:10:33 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on December 30, 2021, 05:48:13 PM
I can't agree with that. Vaccinated people are still getting sick, especially the vulnerable ones. They can also infect other people. We definitely need to worry about this, all of us, vaccinated or not.

As I quoted to Hydra, it's essentially likely 1% or less of people who are vaccinated are being hospitalized for Covid; that falls within the average threshold of any vaccine's efficacy.

I'm not going to live in fear of something that literally is not going to hurt me, and if it does it's because I won the bad genetic draw and the vaccine didn't protect me like it does 99% of everyone else. That's just bad luck if it does, cant do anything about it.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 30, 2021, 06:42:00 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 06:10:33 PM
As I quoted to Hydra, it's essentially likely 1% or less of people who are vaccinated are being hospitalized for Covid; that falls within the average threshold of any vaccine's efficacy.

I'm not going to live in fear of something that literally is not going to hurt me, and if it does it's because I won the bad genetic draw and the vaccine didn't protect me like it does 99% of everyone else. That's just bad luck if it does, cant do anything about it.
"Living in fear" means protecting yourself and other people (yes, other people) from a virus storm that's descended upon us seems like common sense to me. ok, since you call it that, you are goddamn right I am afraid of this virus that has long term sequelae for a lot of people who get it. It may not hurt you, but YOU can certainly hurt other people by helping to pass it around. It recently killed my 42 year old, vaccinated friend with COPD. Took her down in a matter of hours. Scariest fucking thing I've ever seen. The ONLY way to control it is to fucking isolate already and let the probability of contacting the virus die down. But we just refuse to do that out of stubbornness and selfishness.

yes, I said selfishness. You're selfish if you are willing to get infected and infect other people because you don't like wearing a mask.

This is not our country's finest hour. I am so disgusted and ashamed of us.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 30, 2021, 06:43:53 PM
And right now, the EDs are completely and totally overwhelmed, so people with other issues can't get seen, or are having life saving surgeries postponed or canceled. IT's right out of a scary mvie. There's SO MUCH collateral damage and it's getting so fucking bad right now that doctors and nurses are breaking down mentally. People are left for days to crash and die in the ED because there are no ICU beds. To refuse to take the pandemic seriously is a gigantic fuck you to the medical community.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: the_antithesis on December 30, 2021, 07:00:22 PM
Christ almighty, I wish I was dead.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 07:09:09 PM
Quoteyes, I said selfishness. You're selfish if you are willing to get infected and infect other people because you don't like wearing a mask.

So the person who is triple-shotted, wears a mask, and advocates that it's ultimately a person's body and thus their choice if they want to get a shot is selfish...
But advocating for people with guns to force everyone to undergo a medical procedure against their will is selfless...

This really backwards world.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 08:02:34 PM
Yes, vaccinated people are much, much less likely of being hospitalized or dying.  Everyone already knows that.  Hell, I've posted that statistic myself.  That doesn't answer my question at all.

QuoteWhen the government mandates that businesses have to operate at reduced capacity or cannot open due to surges, the negative effects of the pandemic are extended; negative effects such as increases in consumer goods that aren't going to go down anytime soon, even after the pandemic ends, as companies will now realize they can charge that much and get away with it.

It hurts production, it hurts prices, it hurts consumers... and what good has it done? Countries with strict mandates still have massive breakouts & have traded away their rights.
This -sort of - tries to address things, but forgets facts and opts instead for extremely suspect assumptions and weird, oddly Fox News-like soapboxing.  Definitely not what I had in mind.

QuoteStates like Texas and Florida, most of the south with some of the lowest vax rates, also have amongst the lowest per-100 infection rates.
Finally, something that's falsifiable.

I plan to get back to you on that later tonight.  But before I do, you could just show me the data that shows that infection rate is correlated to vaccination rate.  That would absolutely devastate my argument.  But yet again, you don't have the facts on your side and you know it and I know it and everybody knows it and I'm giving you a chance to admit that now.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 09:03:48 PM
QuoteYes, vaccinated people are much, much less likely of being hospitalized or dying.  Everyone already knows that.  Hell, I've posted that statistic myself.  That doesn't answer my question at all.

Then there is no point in continuing the pandemic restrictions; let the unvaccinated have theirs and go on with your life.

Quote...and opts instead for extremely suspect assumptions...

That corporations will be greedy or that businesses with reduced capacity due to government mandates closing businesses lose business and productivity? I think those are pretty common sense assumptions; if you cant work, you cant produce.

QuoteFinally, something that's falsifiable.

Sure, let's look at a few from the link I posted...

Texas: 46.5 cases per 100,000 people.  -   Vax Rate: 56%.
Florida - 120 per 100,000 people    -    Vax Rate: 63.2%
Alabama - 40 cases per 100,000 people    -    Vax Rate: 40.4%

New York - 185 cases per 100,000 people -     Vax Rate: 71.6%
Mass - 111.5 cases per 100,000 people    -    Vax Rate: 74.4%
New Jersey: 160 cases per 100,000 people -    Vax Rate: 67%

There are your facts that you chose to ignore.

The heavily vaxed states are the one's make up most of the current "per-100,000" hot spots, so if the goal is the more vaxxed, the less infected... sure aint doing a good job.


When most covid cases are, "I broke my arm, and tested positive in the hospital even though I have no symptoms", then no... fuck the idea that we should have our rights taken away for that. It's frankly baffling to me that so many people here buy into that shit.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 11:13:05 PM
FFS.  You even do that weird thing conservatives do by implying that covid numbers are inflated because non-covid stuff like a broken arm is considered covid.  LOL.  That's a hard position to take seriously.  And to think, you were one of the very few (along with yours truly) to rapidly go to red alert about what at the time was a little known Wuhan outbreak.  Quite the change over the years.

And I didn't want to discuss currency inflation in a discussion about vaccine mandates because that's pretty close to literally discussing the price of tea in China.  :/

I don't even know why you staked out this position since you already correctly pointed out that the majority of covid hospitalizations/deaths are unvaccinated people.  It's blindingly obvious that vaccines reduce hospitalizations/deaths.  But then you seemingly claim that higher vaccinated states are no better off than lower vaccinated states.  What a bizarre conclusion.

Oh well, don't say I didn't give you a chance to choose a better hill to die on.  I'm not even sure this is a hill.  You're just digging straight down at this point.

QuoteSure, let's look at a few from the link I posted...
The KFF one?  Okay. (https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-deaths-among-older-adults-during-the-delta-surge-were-higher-in-states-with-lower-vaccination-rates/)

Oh, look at that, states with lower vaccination rates had higher covid death rates during the delta surge.  Well, color me surprised.  QED, btw.

"Conversely, states with the highest vaccination rates for older adults â€" Wisconsin, Maryland, Minnesota, New Mexico, and Massachusetts â€" experienced comparatively low death rates among older adults during the Delta surge." About a 7 times lower death rate from covid.

Oh, will you look at that (https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/12/health/us-coronavirus-monday/index.html), states with lower vaccinations had up to 3 times the cases of states with higher vaccinations.   Again, this stuff isn't rocket surgery.

I will never understand why you not only seriously thought that 2+3 = 4, but insisted that you alone were right and everyone else was just some sort of fool.

And to top it off, I get bon mots like this:

QuoteThen there is no point in continuing the pandemic restrictions
US hits highest number of covid cases per day (https://abc7chicago.com/covid-record-cases-cdc-us-coronavirus/11403323/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 30, 2021, 11:40:05 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 06:10:33 PMI'm not going to live in fear of something that literally is not going to hurt me, and if it does it's because I won the bad genetic draw and the vaccine didn't protect me like it does 99% of everyone else. That's just bad luck if it does, cant do anything about it.
I probably should've addressed this earlier, but vaccines do not and have literally never worked like that.  They're not some sort of magic talisman that makes you covid-proof.  You can still can get hurt, as can vulnerable people nearby.  I know this all too well.

Vaccines mitigate risk, they don't negate it.  Their effectiveness weakens over time and may be less effective against certain variants - variants that only exist because this thing has had plenty of hosts to incubate and spread, largely among unvaccinated people.

Instead of a talisman, think about it as medieval plate armor.  You (probably) won't die if you stand under a volley of arrows, but you definitely don't want to do that.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on December 31, 2021, 01:02:31 AM
QuoteFFS.  You even do that weird thing conservatives do by implying that covid numbers are inflated because non-covid stuff like a broken arm is considered covid.

Yes, because that's literally what happens; you are in the hospital because you broke you arm, you test positive by the test they give; vola, the number of hospitalized Covid patients just went up.

QuoteOh, look at that, states with lower vaccination rates had higher covid death rates during the delta surge.  Well, color me surprised.  QED, btw.

Yes, but the rates are not dropping; so fucking what if unvaccinated idiots are dying? Yall are literally the niggas saying, "FUCK EM, I DON'T CARE IF THEY DIE" and now yall suddenly do?

GTFO with that shit.

QuoteUS hits highest number of covid cases per day

Again, so what? When 99% of the one's that are actually relevant, the one's who are seriously sick or dead, are unvaccinated... in yalls own words, fuck them, let them die.

You don't care if they die, but you do care that you can use their deaths as a means to expand government overreach? That's some dumb shit.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Well, if things really get out of hand and hospitals lose complete function, chaos rise up, military will take on and start to shoot/kill people at some point. The thing about this is that this has always been the case. So what people think about the 'mandates' in this context or why they are opposed to what, feel about the unvaccinated really doesn't matter. I mean, it really didn't matter anyway.

The bad thing -or good, depends on how you look at it- about that point is when you start shooting people things tend to get in order, fast. Yeah, fucked up as it is this is the reality of being a living organism. Everyone tends to avoid getting killed. I guarantee that. The worst thing about this is that when military gets that power once, it is very difficult to get it back under these circumstances. At least, until everyone is vaccinated and basic threats eliminated and the influence will go on decades. The only way to prevent this is not arriving to that point. Because it is a real point. This goes for everywhere around the world.

In my opinion -as far as I understand- there is a confusion in different levels about the concept of freedom in general, body rights; more than that about rights in general among some groups. For example, banning abortion and vaccination mandates are not even remotely related to each other. It's political propaganda. Unless you have a medical reason detected by professionals, you have to vaccinate. And esp. in a time of a pandemic, this must be done by force if needed. Shoot them with tranquilizers first and then vaccinated when they are out, better than shooting them with bullets. Because that's going to happen. If not in this one, the next one in a two decades the most.

This is not some philosophical, political 'freedom' debate. This is not something to leave people to decide. "It's my right not to get vaccinated!" There is no such right. It's made up. That is not what right is to begin with.

They will start shooting people. We won't believe how the fuck we arrived to that point. People will shoot back and they will die. It's not some anti-vax morons who are also responsible for other people remain unvaccinated/die and finally ending up dead, hooray good riddance case either. There will be children, toddlers, vaccinated people shot in body bags between all these. There is no winning for any side from that point on. These people must be forced to get vaccinated in some way. Money looks like the best incentive, but then they find out brilliant ways to sell shit we don't need. And they could do this if they really work for it. 

Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 31, 2021, 06:48:20 AM
"Religious liberty" really has little to do with allowing people to practice their faith. To my knowledge, there is nothing in Christian dogma that would preclude being vaccinated against a disease. Religious liberty is a political tactic to oppose any governmental or social policies that individuals don't like. There need not be any evidence that these policies are contradictory to any established religious dogma. It's about as coherent as someone with tattoos saying they can't be vaccinated because they have a religious objection to needles.

Most evangelical objections to vaccines have nothing to do with Christianity (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/30/vaccine-resistance-evangelical-christianity/)

... In the grab bag of reasons for vaccine resistance, the religious exemption claimed by evangelicals is perhaps the most perplexing. The default ethical stance of Christianity is the Golden Rule: “Do to others as you would have them do to you.” This principle was developed in a variety of other religious and moral traditions. ...

White evangelical Christians have resisted getting vaccinated against the coronavirus at higher rates than other religious groups in the United States. Some initial resistance came in the context of a familiar ethical debate: Did the creation of coronavirus vaccines involve cell lines produced from aborted fetuses? The short answer is: no. ...

The main resistance of evangelicals to public health measures does not concern abortion. Having embraced religious liberty as a defining cause, they are now deploying the language of that cause in opposition to jab and mask mandates. Arguments crafted to defend institutional religious liberty have been adapted to oppose public coercion on covid. But they do not fit.

More than that, the sanctification of anti-government populism is displacing or dethroning one of the most basic Christian distinctions. Most evangelical posturing on covid mandates is really syncretism, a merging of unrelated beliefs â€" in this case, the substitution of libertarianism for Christian ethics. In this distorted form of faith, evangelical Christians are generally known as people who loudly defend their own rights. They show not radical generosity but discreditable selfishness. There is no version of the Golden Rule that would recommend Christian resistance to basic public health measures during a pandemic. This is heresy compounded by lunacy.

It is worth recalling, as a matter of law, that someone does not need a good or theologically coherent religious-liberty claim to make a religious-liberty claim in court (absent fraud or opportunism). To deny such a claim, government needs a compelling interest advanced in the least restrictive manner. But it is hard to imagine a clearer, more fundamental example of a compelling state interest than preventing the spread of a virus that has already taken the lives of more than 800,000 Americans. ...
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2021, 08:55:42 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 31, 2021, 06:48:20 AM
... Religious liberty is a political tactic to oppose any governmental or social policies that individuals don't like. ...

Well put. I think that's why laicism is always the most urgent. If you cannot establish that, secularism is pretty much what you want it to be depending on who has the more money and pushes harder. Administrations have to be anti-religious beyond a basic nonbelief quality. The general attitude should be negative, not zero. That's  how you take down organised religion.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: aitm on December 31, 2021, 09:29:13 AM
The only difference between this “mandate” and the 10 or so that “have been” for 50 odd years is this is purely a political issue, not a health issue as it started out as. If Trump immediately agreed that this was a serious health issue and agreed with the pros that we needed a mandate this would have been accepted by nearly everyone, not because it was a mandate by the government, but because the real science demanded it. But now over 700,000 are dead just in this country beating the Spanish flu by 500,000+…..and no one seems to give a fuck. “Freedom” it seems….is not free.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:29:48 AM
Quote from: SGOS on December 30, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
I'm at a total loss to understand how you process information.

I'll break it down.

The dichotomy of this thread is "pro vax and pro mandate" on one side, and "anti vax anti mandate" on the other, as set up by the OP.

I am "pro vax anti mandate."  Although I don't fit the dichotomy, I am told that being "pro vax anti mandate" puts me on the same side as "anti vax anti mandate".

So, I am "pro vax anti mandate" and am lumped in with "anti vax anti mandate" it must be the mandate that is the important part, not the vax, because it is only the mandate part I agree with.

By removing the inferior part of the package deal, we are left with only "pro mandate" and "anti mandate".  The rest of what I wrote follows from there.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Quote from: aitm on December 31, 2021, 09:29:13 AM
The only difference between this “mandate” and the 10 or so that “have been” for 50 odd years is this is purely a political issue, not a health issue as it started out as. If Trump immediately agreed that this was a serious health issue and agreed with the pros that we needed a mandate this would have been accepted by nearly everyone, not because it was a mandate by the government, but because the real science demanded it. But now over 700,000 are dead just in this country beating the Spanish flu by 500,000+…..and no one seems to give a fuck. “Freedom” it seems….is not free.

Trump has received the shot and told his followers that they should get the shot.  He was booed.  It isn't about Trump no matter how much people want it to be.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: aitm on December 31, 2021, 09:34:04 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Trump has received the shot and told his followers that they should get the shot.  He was booed.  It isn't about Trump no matter how much people want it to be.

Irrelevant now Jason. Had he said so from the beginning, this shit would
not have happened. At least it would be on a much smaller scale. It IS what Trump started, because he DID NOT do anything THEN.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on December 31, 2021, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:29:48 AM
I'll break it down.

The dichotomy of this thread is "pro vax and pro mandate" on one side, and "anti vax anti mandate" on the other, as set up by the OP.
I just read the OP.  You must be referring to what you glean from the thread as a whole.  The OP doesn't do that.  It's not even confrontational.

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:29:48 AM
I am "pro vax anti mandate."  Although I don't fit the dichotomy, I am told that being "pro vax anti mandate" puts me on the same side as "anti vax anti mandate".

So, I am "pro vax anti mandate" and am lumped in with "anti vax anti mandate" it must be the mandate that is the important part, not the vax, because it is only the mandate part I agree with.

By removing the inferior part of the package deal, we are left with only "pro mandate" and "anti mandate".  The rest of what I wrote follows from there.
Almost but not quite, you serve the interest of anti-vax.  Yes, you belong in their boat.  This gets down to what I think and what you think, my semantics and your semantics.  Your position as well as mine don't necessarily describe everyone else, so neither of can make categorical statements about the motivations of others, or even what dichotomy is at stake.

First, I disagree that the mandate is the most important. Vaccination for everyone is.  The mandate is only a means to that end.  There are other means too, for example education, although obviously ineffective.

Second, you create a dichotomy for yourself that is more semantic than practical, especially in serving the needs of the public good.  Anti-mandate is an ideological stance that serves the same ends of those who disregard public safety by refusing vaccination.  Pretending you are above the fray, makes you part of the anti-vax threat to public health.  You don't want to wear the T-shirt, but you try to cover it up with a vest.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 31, 2021, 10:16:39 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 30, 2021, 01:14:49 PM
The govt tells us what to do with our bodies all the time.  It told me to put my body on the line when I was drafted for Nam.  It told me to get a whole slew of shots when drafted--and when going to school.
Boot camp, 1969. After boot I got a chance to look at my medical records. One entry read "SNM has volunteered to participate in a test of a new flu vaccine." Conflicted. I would have volunteered if ask, but that sneaky shit was annoying.

BTW most of my time in country was around the Tonle Sap, did you make it in country during your hitch? 
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on December 31, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Seems it is no longer standard for us to think about all the lives saved and suffering avoided by for instance, vaccinating nearly everyone against smallpox and polio myelitis. It was an enormous effort. Some of us would not be here now.

Many decades ago, there were poor decisions made in my family that led to members contracting polio. The guilt stories are on their 3rd generation of retelling, and I believe this has helped in this current situation.

Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: the_antithesis on December 31, 2021, 11:03:31 AM
Quote from: Cassia on December 31, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Seems it is no longer standard for us to think about all the lives saved and suffering avoided by for instance, vaccinating nearly everyone against smallpox and polio myelitis. It was an enormous effort. Some of us would not be here now.

Many decades ago, there were poor decisions made in my family that led to members contracting polio. The guilt stories are on their 3rd generation of retelling, and I believe this has helped in this current situation.


If WWII were to happen today, Hitler would win.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 31, 2021, 11:15:37 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 30, 2021, 07:09:09 PM
So the person who is triple-shotted, wears a mask, and advocates that it's ultimately a person's body and thus their choice if they want to get a shot is selfish...
But advocating for people with guns to force everyone to undergo a medical procedure against their will is selfless...

This really backwards world.
If you wear a mask and take precautions, no, you are not. You are doing the best you can do to avoid getting sick and getting others sick. Maybe I missed something.

Not following you on the part about the people with guns forcing medical procedures.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on December 31, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
According to the CDC (https://data.cdc.gov/Public-Health-Surveillance/Rates-of-COVID-19-Cases-or-Deaths-by-Age-Group-and/3rge-nu2a) this is what we know about infection and death rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

(https://i.imgur.com/YuhxU0H.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/9Q05ZPR.png)

Clearly you are less likely to get the virus and less likely to die if you get vaccinated. The question is does that justify forcing people to wear masks and get the vaccine? I believe it does.

First is the "you are just as likely to die if you get infected regardless of your vaccination status" chart.

(https://i.imgur.com/5LorvyA.png)

While my last statement isn't strictly true, an unvaccinated person is slightly more likely to die than a vaccinated person if they get an infection, the difference is fairly small. The point here being that an unvaccinated person has a higher chance of getting the virus, meaning they have a higher chance of spreading the virus, meaning they have a higher chance of killing other people. As Sanjay Gupta so aptly put it to Joe Rogan, "The right of your fist ends at the tip of my nose." You don't have a right to put your fellow citizens at risk if there is something you can do to mitigate that risk. After all, we don't allow people to drive drunk because it puts other people at risk. Why should we allow unvaccinated people out in public if they are putting others at increased risk of getting this virus?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on December 31, 2021, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 31, 2021, 01:02:31 AM
Yes, because that's literally what happens; you are in the hospital because you broke you arm, you test positive by the test they give; vola, the number of hospitalized Covid patients just went up.

What is your source of this statement?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 31, 2021, 05:47:02 PM
Vaccines help protect children and adolescents from serious, often fatal illnesses. The table below outlines the vaccines that are recommended by most governments and doctors to keep children and populations safe from outbreaks.



BCG   Tuberculosis--   Tuberculosis (TB) is an infection that most often attacks the lungs, but in infants and young children, affects other organs like the brain. A severe case could cause serious complications or death.
TB is very difficult to treat when contracted, and treatment is lengthy and not always successful.

Hep B--   Hepatitis B virus is a dangerous liver infection that, when caught as an infant, often shows no symptoms for decades. It can develop into cirrhosis and liver cancer later in life.

Polio   Poliovirus--Polio is a virus that paralyzes 1 in 200 people who get infected. Among those cases, 5 to 10 per cent die when their breathing muscles are paralyzed. There is no cure for polio once the paralysis sets in â€" only treatment to alleviate the symptoms.

DTP   --   Diphtheria infects the throat and tonsils, making it hard for children to breathe and swallow. Severe cases can cause heart, kidney and/or nerve damage.

DTP   Tetanus--   Tetanus causes very painful muscle contractions. It can cause children’s neck and jaw muscles to lock (lockjaw), making it hard for them to open their mouth, swallow (breastfeed) or breathe. Even with treatment, tetanus is often fatal.

DTP   --Pertussis (whooping cough) causes coughing spells that can last for weeks. In some cases, it can lead to trouble breathing, pneumonia, and death.

Hib   Haemophilus influenza type b (Hib)--   Hib is a bacterium that causes pneumonia, meningitis and other severe infections almost exclusively in children under 5 years old.

Pneumococcal--   Pneumococcal diseases range from serious diseases such as meningitis and pneumonia to milder but more common infections like sinusitis and ear infections.
Pneumococcal diseases are a common cause of sickness and death worldwide, especially among young children under 2 years old.

Rotavirus--Rotaviruses cause severe diarrhoea and vomiting, which can lead to dehydration, electrolyte imbalance and shock in young children. This can lead to death if treatment, especially fluid replacement, is not immediately started.

MMR   Measles--   Measles is a highly contagious disease with symptoms that include fever, runny nose, white spots in the back of the mouth and a rash. Serious cases can cause blindness, brain swelling and death.

MMR   Mumps--   Mumps can cause headache, malaise, fever, and swollen salivary glands. Complications can include meningitis, swollen testicles and deafness.

MMR   Rubella--   Rubella infection in children and adults is usually mild, but in pregnant women it can cause miscarriage, stillbirth, infant death or birth defects.

HPV   Human papillomavirus (HPV)--HPV usually has no symptoms, but some strains can cause cervical cancer â€" the fourth most common cancer in women. Almost all cases of cervical cancer (99 per cent) are caused by HPV. HPV can also cause genital warts in both men and women, as well as cancer on other parts of the body.


These are some of the vaccines we take and don't think much about.  What makes covid any different?  Politics.  And Trump insured that it would be used as a political weapon and he did that most successfully, in that his base still think it is fake. 
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Blackleaf on January 01, 2022, 03:14:48 AM
Even though Trump recently said that:

1. Vaccines work.

2. All the people dying of Covid right now are unvaccinated.

3. He deserved credit for the vaccines. Because, you know, he created them. All by his lonesome.

Trump's cult heard this, and rather than change their minds accordingly, either turned against him, ignored him, or made excuses for him.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 01, 2022, 04:41:21 AM
Behavior like this is completely unacceptable and I hope he receives legal consequences. This is not really about COVID, it is about politics, race, and misogyny.

https://youtu.be/LoQPspS96ps
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Blackleaf on January 01, 2022, 01:19:28 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 31, 2021, 01:02:31 AM
Yes, because that's literally what happens; you are in the hospital because you broke you arm, you test positive by the test they give; vola, the number of hospitalized Covid patients just went up.

Yes, but the rates are not dropping; so fucking what if unvaccinated idiots are dying? Yall are literally the niggas saying, "FUCK EM, I DON'T CARE IF THEY DIE" and now yall suddenly do?

GTFO with that shit.

Again, so what? When 99% of the one's that are actually relevant, the one's who are seriously sick or dead, are unvaccinated... in yalls own words, fuck them, let them die.

You don't care if they die, but you do care that you can use their deaths as a means to expand government overreach? That's some dumb shit.

Dude, when did you go off the deep end? Did you spend a few days in Ba Sing Se's dungeons?

(https://c.tenor.com/84aygb1-7c0AAAAC/ba-sing-se.gif)

"There is no pandemic. Everything is fine. Hospitals are not being overrun. They all just got together and decided to pretend that things are going to shit because reasons."
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: the_antithesis on January 01, 2022, 02:50:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BIcAZxFfrc

His beard is crooked...
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 01, 2022, 02:59:51 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Trump has received the shot and told his followers that they should get the shot.  He was booed.  It isn't about Trump no matter how much people want it to be.

Some of Trump's base is moving on without him, as he is seen as too accommodating and a sellout.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: the_antithesis on January 01, 2022, 03:10:17 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on January 01, 2022, 02:59:51 PM
Some of Trump's base is moving on without him, as he is seen as too accommodating and a sellout.

Serves them right for voting for a game show host.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Blackleaf on January 01, 2022, 04:18:46 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 31, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Trump has received the shot and told his followers that they should get the shot.  He was booed.  It isn't about Trump no matter how much people want it to be.

Curious behavior from the guy who called the virus a hoax, then said it was no worse than the flu, discouraged people from wearing masks, and then claimed that he did all he could to fight the virus that he totally always knew was bad. Who knows what the fuck his position will be tomorrow.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mermaid on January 01, 2022, 07:05:44 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on January 01, 2022, 02:59:51 PM
Some of Trump's base is moving on without him, as he is seen as too accommodating and a sellout.
They've mutated.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 01, 2022, 08:52:02 PM
Trump's base is worse than any virus I've heard about. 
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 01, 2022, 09:15:45 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on December 31, 2021, 01:02:31 AM
Yes, because that's literally what happens; you are in the hospital because you broke you arm, you test positive by the test they give; vola, the number of hospitalized Covid patients just went up.
Source: trust me bro

Also, why would someone whose sole injury is a broken arm test positive for covid?  Are you suggesting that the covid test simply returns a (false) positive?

The Shiranu of just a little over a year ago would have been mortified and embarrassed by this sort of talk.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 01:20:54 AM
QuoteYes, because that's literally what happens; you are in the hospital because you broke you arm, you test positive by the test they give; vola, the number of hospitalized Covid patients just went up.

I think he means that they test everyone, and if positive, you get written as a covid patient getting treated in that hospital. Something on purpose, conspiracy kind. 


Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 01:41:24 AM
How, why? Why would they do something like that? And not in one hospital but in all of them, and not just there but in every country? Or is it simply, America can't be this bad, something must be up thing? It's that bad and not just in that department. Everywhere is much worse than we think. Everything aside, do you really think something like this is possible to pull off?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Shiranu on January 02, 2022, 01:52:21 AM
QuoteDude, when did you go off the deep end? Did you spend a few days in Ba Sing Se's dungeons?

Quite the contrary, at a social level it's based on the ideas of Kant and Voltaire (two of the key individuals of essentially all modern Western ethics) and at a political level the Bookchin, Kropotkin, Proudhon.

Quote"There is no pandemic. Everything is fine. Hospitals are not being overrun. They all just got together and decided to pretend that things are going to shit because reasons."

That is not remotely what I said, and the fact that you are placing this statement upon me, like you do to Jason, proves you aren't really interest in any actual discussion but rather painting everyone with the same brush and ignoring that doesn't actually cover the beliefs but rather puts us in nice little categories and stereotypes.

Quote
I think he means that they test everyone, and if positive, you get written as a covid patient getting treated in that hospital. Something on purpose, conspiracy kind.


To the first half, yes; that is exactly what I am saying and I'm glad at least someone understood that. As for the second, that is putting words in my mouth I neither said nor believe.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, I don't believe there is some malicious force working to manipulate and exploit people (although the pharmaceutical companies sure as hell are enjoying doing exactly that to our government)... it's just statistics get recorded and people misinterpret what they mean; yes, 15% of vaccinated are hospitalized while having Covid; however that is an entirely different concept than 15% are vaccinated FOR Covid.

The latter sounds terrifying; the first acknowledges that number is not nearly as scary as it sounds. The second allows the government and society to overstep it's bounds and impose irrational behaviors and coercions out of fear at best and malicious power grabbing at worst.

QuoteThe Shiranu of just a little over a year ago would have been mortified and embarrassed by this sort of talk.

I'll take that as a complement; if you aren't growing intellectually and philosophically, that is not a positive.


QuoteAlso, why would someone whose sole injury is a broken arm test positive for covid?


Because they are Covid positive?

Like... ? ? ?


My mom just had a mini-stroke the day before New Years; when I took her to the hospital, she was tested for Covid; if she had been positive, she would have been counted as a hospitalized Covid patient.



Just because you are in the hospital and test positive with Covid =/= Covid is the culprit, but when you look at just the raw numbers of people in the hospital who test positive for Covid it gives a false impression that therefor Covid (for the vaccinated) is extremely dangerous and requires government infringement of individual liberty to solve.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 02:55:19 AM
They have tested your mom who is very old and had a stroke for covid, in a covid pandemic, and because if found positive she would be recorded as a covid patient, you decided hospitals and health staff who has seen thousands of cases, every kind of examples, anomalies and knows what to do ahead of time is purposefully inflating numbers everywhere and you expressed this opinion with the example of someone with broken arm? And you are throwing a bunch of philosophers' name to explain your thought process?

You skipped the simplest explanation and jumped a mile to figuring out something grift, malicious going on, affecting everyone in period of emergency. (The philosopher's name we need here is William, he's a Franciscan friar lived in the late Middle Ages.)

The simple explanation is that you are highly depressed, and probably going through some sort of PTSD with what happened with your mom on top of that. Which all are very normal. People think you are in to conspiracies because you sound that way. Not just the opinion, but the reasoning and the expression. It doesn't sound like your usual one which again takes me back to depression and some emotional distress. We haven't just met, don't you think we know each other here in this forum a little?
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on January 02, 2022, 05:54:11 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 01:41:24 AM
Everything aside, do you really think something like this is possible to pull off?
Actual National/Global, or even Local conspiracies are very hard to pull off, because there have to be too many people involved, an there are too many opportunities for the nefarious act to be exposed.  Small conspiracies involving less than 10 conspirators are much easier to orchestrate and actually happen, where there are only a few members sworn to secrecy.

But here is the interesting part.  Getting large masses to believe that a conspiracy exists, even where there is no conspiracy, is easier to pull off.  There are reasons for this.  Where nothing bad is actually afoot, there is naturally no evidence around to verify the conspiracy.  This provides an atmosphere of "ignorance," ignorance being defined as the absence of knowledge, and the absence of verifiable knowledge is where humans default to mysterious explanations.  And mystery itself is fun in much the way science fiction is fun.  We get to set aside logic and actual knowledge to entertain an environment of pure fantasy.

In addition, if the fantasy serves some ideological position or personal principle, it is adopted into the ideology or principal to be used as a fallacious argument to very effectively support the ideology among large masses that feel compelled to promote it for one purpose or another.

It is also fun and even empowering to feel like one is an insider who belongs to an elite group that is privy to evidence that is hidden from the general public.  Even when the theory itself is widely publicized, there is still a sense of being an insider with access to information that is not known, or even can never be known.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 06:13:04 AM
Yeah, I agree with you. But I think here with our friend, it is more about worry. I'm saying that because I feel the same, I know I'm afraid and worried, and guess everyone should be in some place similar to that. And this is all too much. We do continue to our lives, but nothing is normal.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on January 02, 2022, 06:25:41 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on January 02, 2022, 01:52:21 AM
Just because you are in the hospital and test positive with Covid =/= Covid is the culprit, but when you look at just the raw numbers of people in the hospital who test positive for Covid it gives a false impression that therefor Covid (for the vaccinated) is extremely dangerous and requires government infringement of individual liberty to solve.
Equally as bad as selectively interpreting data is providing false data, as was exposed in Florida, where officials were knowingly not reporting Covid, or in districts that hide Covid by reporting "pneumonia like" symptoms.  I recall Baruch claiming that hospitals were reporting un-diagnosed Covid to get more money (later debunked), even while some districts were hiding Covid.  When we see people pointing fingers away from themselves and their ideologies, it's a warning to be aware of what people are trying to hide or defend.  It's the same thing to claim those who stormed the Capitol to destroy the democratic process are not at fault, because Black Lives Matter creates havoc.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: SGOS on January 02, 2022, 06:36:02 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on January 02, 2022, 06:13:04 AM
Yeah, I agree with you. But I think here with our friend, it is more about worry. I'm saying that because I feel the same, I know I'm afraid and worried.
There is every reason for worry at this time.  Even more than just a pandemic, the world seems to be falling into chaos and discord, and this cannot end well.  The difference here is that you are examining your inner self in a time of crisis, while Shiranu is focused outside himself to explain his inner conflict.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Cassia on January 02, 2022, 09:37:48 AM
I don't see efforts to lessen the severity of a pandemic with a higher death toll than any US war as a gateway to fascism or overcontrol. The US government is fairly ineffective and is overrated by these right wingers. Take the FAA. They were so understaffed and clueless that they rely heavily on the good word of Boeing who secretly designed-in a system that could crash a plane based on one bad sensor. The IRS has let churches become political rallies.

If anything, the average US citizen has more freedoms than ever. From smoking weed to owning 60 guns to circumventing legal tender with bitcoin to declaring your gender and producing online porn in your bedroom.

Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 02, 2022, 10:51:35 AM
Quote from: Cassia on January 02, 2022, 09:37:48 AMI don't see efforts to lessen the severity of a pandemic with a higher death toll than any US war as a gateway to fascism or overcontrol.
I dunno, I saw an image of Fauci with a hitler mustache on Fox News, which I found very compelling evidence.  /sarcasm

QuoteIf anything, the average US citizen has more freedoms than ever. From smoking weed to owning 60 guns to circumventing legal tender with bitcoin to declaring your gender and producing online porn in your bedroom.
Wait...you guys are getting paid?  :P

In seriousness, that's true and that's great.  Gay rights and trans rights as well.

The bad thing is that at the same time, several freedoms are under assault, from Roe V Wade to basic voting rights to access to information at public libraries.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Blackleaf on January 02, 2022, 12:29:43 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on January 02, 2022, 01:52:21 AMThat is not remotely what I said,

You're claiming that the problem isn't as bad as it's being made out to be. That the greater issue isn't getting more people vaccinated, but protecting people's rights to refuse a free, safe, and effective vaccine.

Are hospitals busier than normal: Y/N?

Are more people dying in hospitals than normal: Y/N?

Are the patients with Covid who are dying overwhelmingly unvaccinated: Y/N?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions, your views are not in line with reality.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: Blackleaf on January 03, 2022, 01:01:33 PM
There are literally people having their life-saving surgeries postponed because of this shit. Someone in my neighborhood told me her mother had cancer, and her treatment was postponed because there were so many goddamn people flooding the hospitals with Covid. She's not the only one I've heard such stories from, either. This is happening everywhere. So no, I don't have any sympathy for the people dying of Covid. They had their chance to protect themselves, and they chose conspiracy over facts, so now it's biting them in the ass, and fucking over everybody else in the process. This is an easily avoidable problem people will not get on-board with because the Orange Mussolini decided to turn public health into a fucking political issue.
Title: Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
Post by: FreethinkingSceptic on May 22, 2022, 04:36:48 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 28, 2021, 01:01:42 PM Being a materialist and a mild determinist, I do sometimes wonder if these people deserve to be mocked. Nurses often report that they beg for the vax once they get the grim prognosis. They don't even know how a vaccine works. Do these people really even have a chance or choice?

I liken it to ghetto kids that end up in jail. The odds are overwhelming. The future is often portrayed as being unknowable. I think that maybe individual cases are unpredictable, yes... but a properly calculated probability will always play out over time, just like a flipped coin will approach 50% as N approached that sideways 8.

Are these people as much of a victim as anyone during this pandemic?
I'm not particularly concerned one way or another, I'm only interested in the legal side of things and the issues at play here, silly terms and Urban dictionary definitions like "anti-vaxxer/anti-masker" which have no relevance to our laws or social institutions invested in the issues don't interest me.

The same goes for some weird incel or social outcast screaming about "anti-vaxxers" or whatnot on the internet from his mom's basement, blindly parroting his memes by rote with all the quaint knowledge and understanding of vaccines that he was able to comprehend and regurgitate in Kindergarden, and conflating that with even a layman's technical understanding of the principles behind which vaccines are asserted to follow - and the fact that no two "vaccines" are even the same aside from involving a needle.

Or that medical industries are "science" (in the Baconian or natural scientific sense, like physics) anymore than music theory (or "music science") is.

Just like he'd be parroting that the earth is flat, had he been instructed in that little factoid in Kindergarten as well) - rending any serious intellectual discourse with such pitiable individuals futile - since whatever factoid they're rote-repeating has less relevance to the matter than the fact that they were rote-instructed it at such an early and impressionable age. With "rabid anti-vaxxers" or whatever the strawman is there being almost as irrelevant.

Since what is being done is merely ranting and repeating by rote while entirely oblivious to the facts or people surrounding it, not "discourse" in any sense of the term.