I studied the schoolbooks. The years have taught me that this was a narrative of American exceptionalism. One truth is the great "arsenal of democracy" that the nation fast became as Russians, Brits and Chinese were bleeding out. You would think three of the five beaches in Normandy barely existed and they were a cakewalk anyways.
To Stalin this second front was at least two years late and still had to be forced by what happened on this month and day. My history "teach" said FDR "gave away" half the world to the commies at Yalta. Oh yeah, exactly what territory did Americans die on did we give away? As the US was rebuilding the German nation that just killed off 24 million of them....should we really be surprised that the Soviets were buffering. The Russians had dispatched around 90% of the Nazi military. I doubt a democratic Poland would be friendly to the Soviets.
And then US set about democratizing the world with its military-industrial complex and Coca-Cola...like it or not. There were many missed chances to walk softly. After all, we do have that big stick. This exceptionalism and twisted understanding that our miliary prowess walks on water has been guiding our policies ever since. It brings us lost wars and the reactionary rise to power of shitheads Putin and Kim.
(https://i.imgur.com/49ppUFR.jpg?2)
Not the most propitious moment for heralding the turning point of the war for the Allies, but a step in a promising direction with the U.S.'s entry, IMHO.
To me, the infamy here is about the US political leadership and our military getting caught with our pants down. If Japan was not a threat, why did it take billions of dollars, a hundred thousand American lives, and over a million Japanese lives to stop the threat?
Quote from: SGOS on December 08, 2021, 06:59:42 AM
To me, the infamy here is about the US political leadership and our military getting caught with our pants down. If Japan was not a threat, why did it take billions of dollars, a hundred thousand American lives, and over a million Japanese lives to stop the threat?
The isolationists were fighting our rearmament every step of the way. We knew Japan was a threat, we were literally reading their (e)mail. FDR was skating on thin ice by his "short of war" policy in the Atlantic. The US Fleet (now "PACFLEET") was moved to Hawaii in the hope that this was deter the Japanese expansionism. Didn't work.
I would also contend that POTUS Roosevelt knew very well that the U.S. needed to be part of the war effort, that the isolationists were pursuing a dangerously naive policy, and that freezing three-fourths of Japan's overseas trade and 88 percent of its imported oil would render isolationists moot after forcing Japan's hand into action.
I don't know that Roosevelt suspected that action would be so destructive in one swoop. But then, war is all destruction.
Quote from: Docillinois on December 08, 2021, 09:23:28 AM
I would also contend that POTUS Roosevelt knew very well that the U.S. needed to be part of the war effort, that the isolationists were pursuing a dangerously naive policy, and that freezing three-fourths of Japan's overseas trade and 88 percent of its imported oil would render isolationists moot after forcing Japan's hand into action.
I don't know that Roosevelt suspected that action would be so destructive in one swoop. But then, war is all destruction.
CINUS (say that out loud), the admiral in charge of the Pacific Fleet, was told that the fleet at Hawaii was the best deterrent the country could provide. The scene in "Tora, Tora, Tora", where there is ranting about tankers and cruisers being sent to the Atlantic is mostly accurate. But FDR was a former Assistant Secretary of the Navy and there is little chance, and less hard evidence, that he was trolling the Japanese.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 08, 2021, 10:27:19 AM
CINUS (say that out loud), the admiral in charge of the Pacific Fleet, was told that the fleet at Hawaii was the best deterrent the country could provide. The scene in "Tora, Tora, Tora", where there is ranting about tankers and cruisers being sent to the Atlantic is mostly accurate. But FDR was a former Assistant Secretary of the Navy and there is little chance, and less hard evidence, that he was trolling the Japanese.
This has nothing to do with much, but I'll relate the story anyway. :)) I was in Hawaii while Tora, Tora, Tora was being filmed. I was on my way to work one morning, when I noticed several 3 airplane groups flying in a huge circle. As one trio to my left, swung around and came toward my car, wing machine guns blazing; as they got nearer, I could clearly make out the big red sun on the bottom of their wings. They flew over my car and went on toward Ford Island. There were probably a dozen or so of these formations in the sky, one following the other. My first thought was Twilight Zone! My second was to stop and clean up the piss on the front seat! When I got to work I found out a movie was in the making on the Islands. I'm glad I was young and had a strong heart.
LOL You missed Nevada's mistimed sortie? She left early, before the cameras were set and ready for her. Incidental footage from other camera crews got what we see in the movie.
I have a civil engineer in the family that had civilian passes onto the airbase back in the 90s. The pock marks from Japanese Zero machine guns were still visible on the outside walls of concrete buildings. It was a big December day on the North Shore and I could hear/feel the surf pounding way off while we were still up in the pineapple farm. The salt mist felt nice. Some local guy tried to sell me a hand-carved fertility idol. I told him I would have bought if as a piece of art, but he ruined it for me, LOL. Probably Chinese junk. I did get some Voodoo dolls in New Orleans. I feigned I was scared not to, LOL. Sometimes tie them to a tree as hurricanes approach us. Then we read some chicken bones and decide if we need to split or not.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jaOPVR5bHW8/UkJ3Xr_PYaI/AAAAAAAAGBM/9mMz1C-X1Mw/s1600/IMG_20130917_163211.JPG)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 08, 2021, 10:27:19 AM
CINUS (say that out loud), the admiral in charge of the Pacific Fleet, was told that the fleet at Hawaii was the best deterrent the country could provide. The scene in "Tora, Tora, Tora", where there is ranting about tankers and cruisers being sent to the Atlantic is mostly accurate. But FDR was a former Assistant Secretary of the Navy and there is little chance, and less hard evidence, that he was trolling the Japanese.
After levying such tremendously hobbling economic sanctions upon the Japanese while they were in the middle of expanding their empire and fighting a world war? Its difficult to see how this wouldn't mean that Roosevelt was astonishingly unaware of the range of consequences regarding his economic and foreign policy decisions, I think. Which I admit is... possible.
Producing a particular response by a soon to be enemy, then successfully selling that response in a certain light as a
casus belli to engage in hostilities - not an unheard of technique among POTUSs, though.
Quote from: Docillinois on December 16, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
After levying such tremendously hobbling economic sanctions upon the Japanese while they were in the middle of expanding their empire and fighting a world war? Its difficult to see how this wouldn't mean that Roosevelt was astonishingly unaware of the range of consequences regarding his economic and foreign policy decisions, I think. Which I admit is... possible.
Producing a particular response by a soon to be enemy, then successfully selling that response in a certain light as a casus belli to engage in hostilities - not an unheard of technique among POTUSs, though.
The Japanese had enough oil for three years of peacetime use or one year of warmaking. They chose to go to war to keep the looting and pillaging of China going. Poor poor Japanese!
As for fuel oil, the US oil pie was divided up thusly:
Army and Navy wanted National Strategic Reserves filled up.
The British wanted every drop we could send them.
The American consumer wanted to be able to drive to work.
The Japanese wanted to continue waging undeclared war in China.
One of those things doesn't go with the others.
But we should treat the Japanese nicely? They abrogated the Nine Power Treaty (copy available on request) that said non-Chinese businesses had a level playing field in China. Everywhere the Japanese defeated the Chinese and set up puppet government all foreign companies were required to have a Japanese with veto powers on their board of directors.
Look up the Rape of Nanking, then sleep well tonight.
We helped Russia a lot in WWII. We supplied them with 400,000 jeeps and trucks, 14,000 airplanes, 13,000 tanks, 8,000 tractors, 15 million pairs of boots, 4.5 million tons of food, 2.7 million tons of petroleum products, 1.5 million blankets, and 107,000 tons of cotton. Could Russia have done what it did in WWII without the support of the US?
https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/index.html
Russia was preparing to pull behind the Urals if needed, they had a fallback position to continue the fight.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 16, 2021, 05:53:45 PM
But we should treat the Japanese nicely?
Of course not, which is why I'm in complete agreement with FDR's cagey and surreptitious moves to inject the U.S. into the war, the Pacific theater included.
Quote from: Docillinois on December 17, 2021, 01:56:37 PM
Of course not, which is why I'm in complete agreement with FDR's cagey and surreptitious moves to inject the U.S. into the war, the Pacific theater included.
LOL. The last thing he wanted was a two ocean war. But he also didn't want the Japanese reducing the eastern half of Asia to a vassal status. Doing so would mean the Axis could have a land connection if Russia fell.
It's never easy.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 17, 2021, 04:20:07 PM
LOL. The last thing he wanted was a two ocean war.
'Didn't want but fully aware that a two ocean war was necessary and inevitable,' is a more complete picture, I would suggest, based upon that bare reality of needing to stop Japan while helping to stop the Nazis. Very much never easy.
I was training a group of engineers from India. During break, being very interested in WW2 battles I was watching this very intense footage on my laptop when one of the guys asked what it was.... Apparently, they knew next to nothing about the war. So I put it up on the big screen. They could not believe it was real.
https://youtu.be/ypLuXx6SKgU
Has anyone mentioned yet that the battleship-sized disparity between US and Japanese industrial capacity pretty much doomed Japan's war effort the instant it began?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
Germany and Italy were also doomed for the same reason:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/WorldWarII-GDP-Relations-Allies-Axis-simple.svg/800px-WorldWarII-GDP-Relations-Allies-Axis-simple.svg.png)
It's very simple: if your enemy can outproduce you, outsupply you, and outgun you, then they can also outfight you.
Quote from: Docillinois on December 17, 2021, 07:54:32 PM
'Didn't want but fully aware that a two ocean war was necessary and inevitable,' is a more complete picture, I would suggest, based upon that bare reality of needing to stop Japan while helping to stop the Nazis. Very much never easy.
Here's a bit of reading that might help you. I had fun doing it. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/
Quote from: SGOS on December 08, 2021, 06:59:42 AMTo me, the infamy here is about the US political leadership and our military getting caught with our pants down. If Japan was not a threat, why did it take billions of dollars, a hundred thousand American lives, and over a million Japanese lives to stop the threat?
Well, Japan was a member of the Axis, with Germany and Italy. FDR ordered a large portion of the USN to be "forward deployed" as they say it now, in the hopes it would restrain Japan.
Now for a geographical peculiarity to the situation. Japan had the Inland Sea to her west, and fuck all to the East for a good long way. Japanese war planning called for the "decisive battle" between the IJN and the USN to happen after our Navy had fought its way to Japanese coastal waters. Japanese small ships were designed with limited fuel storage compared to USN DDs, etc. The small boys would dash into a friend port to refuel and return to duty without losing the war. In 1941 we had little information about at-sea refuel in the
Kaigun, and many thought they couldn't do it at all. This meant that Pearl was effective out of range of any Axis danger. When Admiral James O. Richardson wrote "On The Treadmill To Pearl Harbor" he claimed he had warned FDR that Pearl was vulnerable. Oddly enough, in the testimony given to Congress at the Congressional Investigation into the Pearl Harbor Attack he said his only complaint was lack of off-duty facilities for the large force stationed there. I guess it's a matter of "oath" and "no oath."