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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 06:07:24 PM

Title: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 06:07:24 PM
One of the most common arguments on the part of Christians and other religious believers for a God is to point to nature and say: "Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse..." (Romans 1:20). In other words, if people like Paul can see God's handiwork in nature, then we should all see it. You cannot claim ignorance!

Anyway, so the argument goes that if nature looks like the things we intelligent humans design and create, then nature must have an intelligent designer of its own. That designer, of course, is God.

There are many logical problems with this argument, but allow me to point out one difficulty that I haven't seen many people point out. Is it really correct to say that nature looks like design, or does design look like nature? I agree that there is a resemblance between some parts of nature and what we humans construct, and I think it's no coincidence. The reason there is such a resemblance is because what we humans design gets its inspiration from what we see in nature. We designed canopies, for example, because we've noticed trees with thick branches act as shelter from the hot sun or rain. Hinges were inspired by joints, and knives were inspired by teeth and claws.

So Christian apologists have it backwards. Nature just happens to have some structures that we humans find useful and exploit. And did you ever notice that we often do a far better job?
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: SGOS on October 08, 2021, 06:40:55 PM
Biological organisms evolved because they work.  This gives the appearance of design.  To someone who has no understanding of evolution, seeing something that works calls for a designer.  What they don't get is that evolution doesn't plan or design anything. It does not anticipate what it needs to do.  It doesn't even have the slightest ability to think, and doesn't care if anything works or not.  But in the chaos of it all, somethings do work.

Then the clergy points to these things and says, "See?  It's God!  Send money."
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Cassia on October 08, 2021, 07:30:13 PM
If someone believes in any of the many centuries-old creation myths...given the current understanding of many branches of science and evidence...they are either willfully ignorant, incapable or insincere. Every single day, people pay money to shuffle through a building with a boat-shaped façade and cages holding stuffed dinosaurs. They are lost causes as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 07:33:06 PM
Quote from: SGOS on October 08, 2021, 06:40:55 PM
Biological organisms evolved because they work.  This gives the appearance of design.  To someone who has no understanding of evolution, seeing something that works calls for a designer.  What they don't get is that evolution doesn't plan or design anything. It does not anticipate what it needs to do.  It doesn't even have the slightest ability to think, and doesn't care if anything works or not.  But in the chaos of it all, somethings do work.

That's a very astute summary of an alternate explanation for apparent design that has kept Christian apologists busy for almost 162 years! As you say evolution doesn't design anything for a purpose, and as I say evolution's results sometimes give us humans ideas for designs to suit our purposes.

Did you ever notice, though, that there's much in nature we know better than to emulate? Since we humans know better than to locate a playground next to an open cesspool, you would think God would know better than to locate sex organs next to the anus.

QuoteThen the clergy points to these things and says, "See?  It's God!  Send money."

You would think that if a God who created the cosmos is truly backing the clergy, they wouldn't need to ask for money. After all, the clergy tell their followers to have faith and pray, and God will provide. Why don't the clergy pray for all they need? If it worked, then it seems like it might be rather convincing to the unbelievers.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:58:08 PM
Biblical responses to the unknown are as easy to predict as a child might suggest an answer to anything they have no understanding of. We have an issue when people claim that simply because it is written in their ”holy book” it deserves special consideration, when in fact, it is simple bullshit, and we are allowed to call it that because their opinion of a thing does not give it the same status as actual knowledge. That we feel an obligation to argue the babble gives it the credence they suggest it has. If one dismisses the whole thing as bullshit, what left do they have to argue with except now trying to proof the babble is actually worthy of being used as knowledge? God is stymied by a woman’s menstrual cycle he himself created…now that is worthy of questioning the grand master of creation.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Cassia on October 08, 2021, 08:11:42 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:58:08 PM
Biblical responses to the unknown are as easy to predict as a child might suggest an answer to anything they have no understanding of. We have an issue when people claim that simply because it is written in their ”holy book” it deserves special consideration, when in fact, it is simple bullshit, and we are allowed to call it that because their opinion of a thing does not give it the same status as actual knowledge. That we feel an obligation to argue the babble gives it the credence they suggest it has. If one dismisses the whole thing as bullshit, what left do they have to argue with except now trying to proof the babble is actually worthy of being used as knowledge? God is stymied by a woman’s menstrual cycle he himself created…now that is worthy of questioning the grand master of creation.
Many of my friends actually believe that men have one fewer rib than women. The stupid shit is so thick around here I need to wear boots
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Mike Cl on October 08, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
I have noticed from early on that people who believe in god, love to point to 'nature' and proclaim how beautiful it is and that it must lead to the belief in a truly awesome god!   In the last couple of decades I've asked some of these people to really look at nature.  It IS clearly beautiful and awe inspiring.  It is also savage, cruel, non-caring, and completely neutral. For example, non plant life must kill to live.  Your garden spider in your back yard must kill insects to obtain energy to live--and they kill and eat their prey alive!  And that is not unusual.  All life forms on this planet must gather energy to live.  How that is accomplished is quite varied.  Plants simply combine sunlight and minerals and they get what they need.  Animals must eat something alive to gather that energy.  Humans are the same.  If one believes in god, creator of both nature and humans, then one has to understand that we humans must kill to live--we have no choice.  Mankind must follow that rule or die and since god created both nature and humans, that is what god must want.  God could easily have created a solar type energy system for humans to simply gather energy from the sun.  An example would be plants.  Or god could have used a method creatures that live in a world of total darkness (in the depths of the seas)--heat and minerals give them energy they need.  Nature shows me that there is no god, for it does not teach anything; no morals, ethics or codes of conduct.  It is based on the principle of the fittest survives; the most adapted to the environment they find themselves in. God is not needed. 
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 10:47:45 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:58:08 PM
Biblical responses to the unknown are as easy to predict as a child might suggest an answer to anything they have no understanding of. We have an issue when people claim that simply because it is written in their ”holy book” it deserves special consideration, when in fact, it is simple bullshit, and we are allowed to call it that because their opinion of a thing does not give it the same status as actual knowledge. That we feel an obligation to argue the babble gives it the credence they suggest it has. If one dismisses the whole thing as bullshit, what left do they have to argue with except now trying to proof the babble is actually worthy of being used as knowledge? God is stymied by a woman’s menstrual cycle he himself created…now that is worthy of questioning the grand master of creation.

A lot of apologists will flatter their beliefs stating that the question of the Christian God's existence is life's most important question. I can think of a lot of more important questions like what impact global warming will have on humanity or if I will succeed as a mathematician. Many people get by in life completely apathetic to Christian claims. Christianity is basically irrelevant to most of life except when it causes trouble.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 10:51:15 PM
On the topic of nature being cruel...

So you know how everything in nature requires substance to survive; animals hunt and kill one another food, we plant fruits and vegetables to cultivate and farm? What if God follows these same principles and what we were told was "heaven" is really just a great hall where our souls are taken to be consumed by God and his angels. Earth was designed to be a giant farm for his feasts.

All the religious wars in history were actually of his design so that he could hold great feasts for himself and the angels, and it is a celebration of gluttony and debauchery, the very things he said we shouldn't engage in, because it ruins the purity of the soul and makes it less appetizing.

Perhaps hell is a sanctuary, where the angels who became "demons" that opposed this offer sanctuary to the souls they discard as being "too disgusting" to consume... and God allows this not as a punishment towards Lucifer but because he lacks the power and numbers to come down there and defeat him.

(Idk if this is an anime, but it needs to be)
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 09, 2021, 12:50:55 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 10:51:15 PMSo you know how everything in nature requires substance to survive; animals hunt and kill one another food, we plant fruits and vegetables to cultivate and farm? What if God follows these same principles and what we were told was "heaven" is really just a great hall where our souls are taken to be consumed by God and his angels. Earth was designed to be a giant farm for his feasts.

All the religious wars in history were actually of his design so that he could hold great feasts for himself and the angels, and it is a celebration of gluttony and debauchery
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
Does God's great plan explain snottites?
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 06:01:50 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
Does God's great plan explain snottites?

The gross nature of mentioning bodily fluids aside, it is true that Christians fail to mention much of the terrible side of the world they believe God created when they argue that the world needs a creator. If God created bunnies, then he also created rats. If he created beautiful oceans, then he also created tsunamis.

In another forum I was discussing this very issue with a Jehovah's Witness. In particular I pointed out to him that the Watchtower credits God with creating the cell. I explained to him that if God created cells, then he created cancer cells. When I asked him repeatedly if God created cells, he refused to answer my question. He obviously did not want to admit that the creator argument for God is seriously flawed if it concludes he created cancer cells.

I will need to start a thread to discuss how Christians manage to slip out of sticky situations like that.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 10, 2021, 08:37:01 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 06:01:50 PM
The gross nature of mentioning bodily fluids aside,...
Is that a challenge?
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 10:51:15 PM
On the topic of nature being cruel...

So you know how everything in nature requires substance to survive;

To be cruel, a sentient being must have an evil intent.

Nature has a benevolent intent, not that nature thinks, that we judge as good because we are her to judge it and most would think this to be a good thing.

Nature is thus not amoral or immoral, and that leaves moral as our only one choice, if nature were sentient.

Natures first act is to give life a chance to live and die.

Nature, to intelligent thinking entities like us, will be seen to be good, but not moral.

Morals take thought, and nature does not think or know that she is creating for the best possible end for life, --- as far as we can know.

Regards
DL

 
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:58:33 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 09, 2021, 12:50:55 AM
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

Good point.

We are more suited to tribes and not the huge and overpopulated hives that we have created.

We are all born wanting to lead our tribes. Hive living does not allow for us to see the fittest we are born to mimic.

Our species is without leadership because we no longer seek our fittest minds to follow.

That is why we are heading for our own extinction.

Space Ship Earth cannot fly right without a Captain.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 12:01:00 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 09:41:48 AM
Does God's great plan explain snottites?

Yes.

From my list of useless information.

Strangely, we harvest it and other pusses from animals for cheese manufacture etc.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
To be cruel, a sentient being must have an evil intent.

Nature has a benevolent intent, not that nature thinks, that we judge as good because we are her to judge it and most would think this to be a good thing.

Nature is thus not amoral or immoral, and that leaves moral as our only one choice, if nature were sentient.

Natures first act is to give life a chance to live and die.

Nature, to intelligent thinking entities like us, will be seen to be good, but not moral.

Morals take thought, and nature does not think or know that she is creating for the best possible end for life, --- as far as we can know.

Regards
DL


I disagree--nature is neither good nor bad--it just is.  For plants and creatures that require energy from the sun to live, it is cruel.  For plants, they gather energy from the sun.  For animals, they have to gather it from eating plants (which is life) or other creatures that eat plants.  Creature killing creature is not pretty--but totally necessary.  And cruel.  I don't like it, but for me to live I must kill; whether plant or animal, I must harvest my energy from other life.  That is just the way it is and there is not a thing I can do about it.   
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: aitm on December 01, 2021, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM


Nature has a benevolent intent,

“Nature” is indifferent. Nature is not an entity, nor anything….merely a word that implies the all of life with the all of weather.
Nature does recognize, doesn’t know we exist as “it” doesn’t know anything.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 01, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:58:33 AM
Good point.
*quotes a dystopian scifi novel in jest*
"Good point" 🤦‍♀️
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: SGOS on December 02, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
Nature, to intelligent thinking entities like us, will be seen to be good, but not moral.
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: trdsf on January 12, 2022, 12:40:30 PM
Quote from: SGOS on December 02, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.
And humans are such finely tuned pattern-matching machines that we can spot patterns where there aren't any.  It's our experience in day to day life that complicated things are made rather than just happen, and reality is complicated, therefore...

And you're right, anthropomorphicization is deeply ingrained in us, not only in casual conversation but in discussion of scientific matters.  I remember Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 being described as 'taking dead aim on Jupiter' when no such aiming happened, it was a chance crossing of two orbital paths.  The alkaline metals are often described as 'wanting' to give up an electron -- well, no, an atom is incapable of wanting anything, it's just reacting to atomic and quantum mechanical forces.  It's pernicious in our speech and in our thinking.

I've tried for years to rid myself of the words 'sunrise' and 'sunset' because the sun isn't moving... and you know what, I can't.  The terms are too useful, no matter how inaccurate they are, and are a lot more obvious in meaning than 'horizonfall' and 'horizonrise' or some other circumlocution.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2022, 01:29:42 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 12, 2022, 12:40:30 PM
I've tried for years to rid myself of the words 'sunrise' and 'sunset' because the sun isn't moving... and you know what, I can't.  The terms are too useful, no matter how inaccurate they are, and are a lot more obvious in meaning than 'horizonfall' and 'horizonrise' or some other circumlocution.
I don't let other people control my speech. I also have no trouble calling a liter a quart.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: trdsf on January 15, 2022, 01:41:56 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2022, 01:29:42 PM
I also have no trouble calling a liter a quart.
*wince*  I do, because it's not a quart.  It's very nearly a quart, but it's not a quart.

Those are the kinds of details that jump up and bite me on the ass.  XD
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 15, 2022, 08:52:35 AM
Quote from: trdsf on January 15, 2022, 01:41:56 AM
*wince*  I do, because it's not a quart.  It's very nearly a quart, but it's not a quart.

Those are the kinds of details that jump up and bite me on the ass.  XD
Well, a microliter one way or the other is unimportant. Being anal about that is just silly.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: trdsf on January 15, 2022, 03:16:23 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 15, 2022, 08:52:35 AM
Well, a microliter one way or the other is unimportant. Being anal about that is just silly.
[pedant]Actually, it's 5.4 centiliters[/pedant] :D
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 16, 2022, 01:49:13 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 15, 2022, 03:16:23 PM
[pedant]Actually, it's 5.4 centiliters[/pedant] :D
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 16, 2022, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 02:43:54 PM
I disagree--nature is neither good nor bad--it just is.  For plants and creatures that require energy from the sun to live, it is cruel.  For plants, they gather energy from the sun.  For animals, they have to gather it from eating plants (which is life) or other creatures that eat plants.  Creature killing creature is not pretty--but totally necessary.  And cruel.  I don't like it, but for me to live I must kill; whether plant or animal, I must harvest my energy from other life.  That is just the way it is and there is not a thing I can do about it.   

What I said on evil applies to good as well.

I do not think we have an argument on this aspect.

You are not killing with an evil intent, when forced to by nature to kill for food.

Regars
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 16, 2022, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: aitm on December 01, 2021, 02:49:36 PM
“Nature” is indifferent. Nature is not an entity, nor anything….merely a word that implies the all of life with the all of weather.
Nature does recognize, doesn’t know we exist as “it” doesn’t know anything.

I agree that nature is not sentient and cannot be moral or immoral.

The result of the way nature works, would have to be seen as good by all life, if it could reason.

The small bit of evil in nature is a must to gain the greater good.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 16, 2022, 03:46:49 PM
Quote from: SGOS on December 02, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
Humans tend to imbue nature with human-like qualities, even though it has none.  I think we feel a kinship with it because it such a big part of our lives.  Like kin, nature can be good or bad, but it's still a kind of kinship, whether it be a loving spouse or an annoying relative.

No argument, but I would not say that nature can be good or bad, because those take intent, and nature cannot have a conscious intent.

You and I can perceive the good and bad in nature though.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on January 23, 2022, 03:26:13 PM
So unintelligent design then?
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: SGOS on January 24, 2022, 08:30:09 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 23, 2022, 03:26:13 PM
So unintelligent design then?
"Intelligent Design" may be what??  I dunno, maybe evolution guided my the hand of a creator, or maybe it's just plain old "God made man on Saturday, and the job was finished."

Evolution doesn't require a hand of guidance.  It doesn't preclude the existence of a creative intelligence, but it doesn't require one either.  If anything, evolution is neither "intelligent" or "designed."  It is as you point out, "unintelligent design," and anything that looks designed is just happenstance.   If it were intelligently designed, I would expect far less imperfection and far more intelligence than the pitiful products we see in the environment around us.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 07:33:32 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 23, 2022, 03:26:13 PM
So unintelligent design then?

Where do you see a lack of intelligence in nature?

Do you see what follows as intelligent?

------------

The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on January 28, 2022, 09:26:41 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 07:33:32 PM
Where do you see a lack of intelligence in nature?

First hand experience says "the human knee".
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 28, 2022, 09:26:41 PM
First hand experience says "the human knee".

Most are ok but do you have a better natural design in mind?

I think the design quite good.

We are supposed to walk about 10 miles a day but we are too lazy, sit a lot and screw our own bodies up.

If we lived more naturally and physically, you would not likely have that problem.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 28, 2022, 10:02:14 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 07:33:32 PMWhere do you see a lack of intelligence in nature?
Oh man, where to start.  Do you wear glasses?  Did you ever have braces?  Wisdom teeth removed?  Back pain?  Migraines?  Random pain for no reason?  Insomnia?  Ever almost choke on friggin' water?
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 28, 2022, 10:20:11 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 10:01:36 PMMost are ok but do you have a better natural design in mind?
Something that doesn't give out after 40 years.

QuoteWe are supposed to walk about 10 miles a day but we are too lazy, sit a lot and screw our own bodies up.

If we lived more naturally and physically, you would not likely have that problem.
Sedentary habits exacerbate the problem, but they're not the cause of the problem.  The cause of the problem is a 4-legs bodyplan going bipedal.  Puts quite a lot more strain on the joints.  Almost as jarring a switch as going from water-based to land-based.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 29, 2022, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 28, 2022, 10:20:11 PM
Something that doesn't give out after 40 years.
Sedentary habits exacerbate the problem, but they're not the cause of the problem.  The cause of the problem is a 4-legs bodyplan going bipedal.  Puts quite a lot more strain on the joints.  Almost as jarring a switch as going from water-based to land-based.

Lack of intelligence is normal in a non-sentient concept like nature.

Do you expect to be born and die in some pristine form?

You might want to recognize that you are in the best possible body you can have, given nature and your history.

Sure it is ugly and defective to you, perhaps, but it is the best you can be.

Entropy makes no exceptions.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 29, 2022, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 28, 2022, 10:20:11 PM
Something that doesn't give out after 40 years.

My body did not and I am almost twice your age, sunny.

Sympathies are all I can offer you.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 30, 2022, 01:37:29 PM
It's "sonny", see The Hitchhiker's Guide to Awkward Condescension.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 30, 2022, 08:01:08 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 30, 2022, 01:37:29 PM
It's "sonny", see The Hitchhiker's Guide to Awkward Condescension.

Say that in my native French.

It sounds like you are awkward with a condom.

Their is an app for that, so I hear.

I would not have any thing first hand on that.

You will get better at it when you get out of your mom's basement, Sonny.

Get back to your porn now.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 30, 2022, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 29, 2022, 11:58:13 AM
Do you expect to be born and die in some pristine form?

You might want to recognize that you are in the best possible body you can have, given nature and your history.

Sure it is ugly and defective to you, perhaps, but it is the best you can be.
It is the best one can hope for if-and-only-if the human bodyplan is the result of descent with modification.  Take a great ape, take it out of the trees and onto the savannah, and this is kinda the best you can hope for, bum knee and astigmatism and allergies and possibly something so rare that I get to name it someday.  Fingers crossed.

But if you were to make a human from scratch (you would first have to create the universe) you definitely wouldn't go with backwards eyes, an overcrowded jaw, a useless tailbone, and a mystery organ that may or may not do anything useful but definitely isn't needed and sometimes ruptures, which can cause death.
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 31, 2022, 10:18:16 AM
Thanks for the medical update.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Cassia on January 31, 2022, 12:01:04 PM
https://youtu.be/cO1a1Ek-HD0
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: drunkenshoe on January 31, 2022, 01:44:49 PM
Is there some sort of special reason that I'm not aware we need to put up with this? Because we have made dozens and dozens of threads about these titles, discussed and discussed about them in the last 12 years I've been here alone. I could care less about someone who calls himself "Greatest I am", and thinks he is 'educating' people about them with teenager wisdom in the last few weeks.

Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 31, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Those who can, teach.

Those who can't, whine.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 31, 2022, 05:24:43 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 31, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Those who can, teach.

Those who can't, whine.

Regards
DL
Well, I must admit--you are an EXCEPTIONAL whinner!
Title: Re: Is nature like intelligent design, or is intelligent design like nature?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 31, 2022, 06:06:26 PM
Great is the power of ignore.