This is obvious to any thinking person, but I have thought up an argument that might even work with Christians.
Identical twins are two different people; they are not two halves of one person. Twins result from the splitting of an embryo, which occurs after the egg has been fertilized and implanted. If the egg became a person upon fertilization, identical twins would each be half of one person.
Frank
I can verify that firsthand. I am not half a person. [-(
Except they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
> Except they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
Not really. Conception and fertilization are essentially the same. This from the Free Dictionary:
con·cep·tion (kn-spshn)
n.
1.
a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization.
b. The entity formed by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; an embryo or zygote.
And even if they try to split hairs and claim that conception occurs at implantation, splitting of the zygote in monoplacental monozygotic twins occurs after implantation, so the argument still holds.
Besides, there are many claims, including those in anti-abortion laws, that state human life begins at fertilization:
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html (http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html)
Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:
http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm (http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... n/2058515/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/abortion-kansas-life-fertilization/2058515/)
TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) — Kansas legislators gave final passage to a sweeping anti-abortion measure Friday night, sending Gov. Sam Brownback a bill that declares life begins "at fertilization"
Frank
Quote from: "Nonsensei"Except they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
And it would appear that God shitcans the majority of fertilized eggs, making him the biggest abortionist of the lot. :lol:
> And it would appear that God shitcans the majority of fertilized eggs, making him the biggest abortionist of the lot. :lol:
That always struck me as the strongest argument for allowing abortion. If God does it, it must be good.
Frank
Quote from: "FrankDK"That always struck me as the strongest argument for allowing abortion. If God does it, it must be good.
Frank
'Mysterious ways?' :D/
Quote from: "Nonsensei"Except they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
Perhaps you meant "They don't say that an egg becomes a
person upon fertilisation."
Both sperm and eggs are living, and they are human cells, so they are always going to be human life as long as they remain viable. That doesn't make them persons. And arguably, it takes more than a fertilized egg to be a person.
If christians weren't so against birth control (unless they themselves need it) I might understand their position a bit more. However, as things are, their stance on birth control makes necessary more abortions. If they really wanted to stop abortions, they would be handing out birth control like candy. Of course, they can't get caught *gasp* having sex, so it's not terribly likely that that will happen.
Quote from: "FrankDK"A Fertilized Egg Isn't a Person
No more than a fertilised chicken egg is a whole chicken.
QuoteExcept they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
But if human life begins at conception, then when does the second human life of an identical twin begin? There is only one conception, so that can't be the full story.
Quote from: "BlackL1ght"If christians weren't so against birth control (unless they themselves need it) I might understand their position a bit more. However, as things are, their stance on birth control makes necessary more abortions. If they really wanted to stop abortions, they would be handing out birth control like candy. Of course, they can't get caught *gasp* having sex, so it's not terribly likely that that will happen.
It was recently explained to me that children are not ours. God gives them to us and entrusts us with them. They are God's children. BC is wrong because it keeps God from giving you the children He wants to give you. It is not our job or place to intervene. Abortion is wrong because it kills the children God gives you. If God gives you a child, it is your responsibility to take care of His child.
I just nodded and smiled a vapid smile at him.
You do realize these legislatures don't give a rats ass what happens after being born. They're so worried about fetus's, but once born if the cat drags the kid off and eats it then it was just gods plan..
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"You do realize these legislatures don't give a rats ass what happens after being born. They're so worried about fetus's, but once born if the cat drags the kid off and eats it then it was just gods plan..
Yup. More than once while working in South Texas, I saw bumper stickers that said "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em".
They are God's precious children until they shoot out of the mother's vagina, and then the automatically become welfare trash that you don't want to have to worry about.
Put cats to death. Texas hates cats anyway, but seems to love rats.. I guess I should have said if a rat drags the kid off it's just gods plan. Cats are satanic in nature..
Quote from: "Mermaid"It was recently explained to me that children are not ours. God gives them to us and entrusts us with them. They are God's children. BC is wrong because it keeps God from giving you the children He wants to give you. It is not our job or place to intervene. Abortion is wrong because it kills the children God gives you. If God gives you a child, it is your responsibility to take care of His child.
:-k So
every child is his son/daughter? Way to dilute the importance of Jesus to nil!
Quote from: "Hakurei Reimu"Quote from: "Mermaid"It was recently explained to me that children are not ours. God gives them to us and entrusts us with them. They are God's children. BC is wrong because it keeps God from giving you the children He wants to give you. It is not our job or place to intervene. Abortion is wrong because it kills the children God gives you. If God gives you a child, it is your responsibility to take care of His child.
:-k So every child is his son/daughter? Way to dilute the importance of Jesus to nil!
HR, you're forgetting that Jesus was also God, while still being his own son simultaneously. :D Because that makes wonderful sense! :rollin:
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "FrankDK"A Fertilized Egg Isn't a Person
No more than a fertilised chicken egg is a whole chicken.
That's all I ever have to say.......... "Is a fertilized chicken egg a chicken?"
Because it's not. :rollin:
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "FrankDK"A Fertilized Egg Isn't a Person
No more than a fertilised chicken egg is a whole chicken.
That's all I ever have to say.......... "Is a fertilized chicken egg a chicken?"
Because it's not. :rollin:
I demand congress ban partial fried eggs.. :shock:
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"[
I demand congress ban partial fried eggs.. :shock:
But soft boiled eggs are OK!? Heathen!
Quote from: "FrankDK"And even if they try to split hairs and claim that conception occurs at implantation, splitting of the zygote in monoplacental monozygotic twins occurs after implantation, so the argument still holds.
One pregnancy can result in birth of multiple persons, all that God needs to do is to breath in six, seven, eight, nine, or ten times (Yahoo, Brazil in 1946).
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "FrankDK"A Fertilized Egg Isn't a Person
No more than a fertilised chicken egg is a whole chicken.
That's all I ever have to say.......... "Is a fertilized chicken egg a chicken?"
Because it's not. :rollin:
Someday, I'd like to be part of an anti-abortion potluck lunch. I'd bring a bunch of eggs and tell everyone I brought chicken. :-D
And sing E I E I and O. :)
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "FrankDK"A Fertilized Egg Isn't a Person
No more than a fertilised chicken egg is a whole chicken.
That's all I ever have to say.......... "Is a fertilized chicken egg a chicken?"
Because it's not. :rollin:
Can you imagine ordering a chicken in a restaurant and getting served with a fertilised egg?
Just think of the carnage at Waffle House and the other mass fertilized egg butchery's out there. You never see the anti abortion crowd picketing them, but we all know it's high time.. :x
Quote from: "Jason78"Can you imagine ordering a chicken in a restaurant and getting served with a fertilised egg?
I would pay a chef top dollar to serve one of my fundie buddies one of those. That would be hilarious.
Quote from: "FrankDK"> Except they dont say an egg becomes a human upon fertilization. They say human life begins at conception. In that minor wording difference lies the way out of your logic trap.
Not really. Conception and fertilization are essentially the same. This from the Free Dictionary:
con·cep·tion (kn-spshn)
n.
1.
a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization.
b. The entity formed by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; an embryo or zygote.
And even if they try to split hairs and claim that conception occurs at implantation, splitting of the zygote in monoplacental monozygotic twins occurs after implantation, so the argument still holds.
Besides, there are many claims, including those in anti-abortion laws, that state human life begins at fertilization:
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html (http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html)
Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:
http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm (http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... n/2058515/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/abortion-kansas-life-fertilization/2058515/)
TOPEKA, Kan. (AP) — Kansas legislators gave final passage to a sweeping anti-abortion measure Friday night, sending Gov. Sam Brownback a bill that declares life begins "at fertilization"
Frank
I think you misunderstood. He wasn't referring to the change from "fertilization" to "conception," he meant the change from "a human" to "human life." Twins can't be "a human," but they sure can be "human life."
watch "Through the Wormhole S04E02 When Does Life Begin"
You'll be surprised.
Pro-lie viewpoint:
When God splits a fertilized egg in half (or thirds or ...), he makes sure that the person splits into multiple persons.