Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.
So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Quote from: luke on June 09, 2021, 05:09:13 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.
So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Unlike Jesus and God, Sokrates and Newton never actually violated the rules of physics or had their entire existence be a logical impossibility, so I think that's a safe place to start questioning the existence of one moreso than the other.
Quote from: luke on June 09, 2021, 05:09:13 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.
So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Do a little research on this site; we have had several discussion threads dealing with the historicity of Jesus and the multitude of the history of (and contents thereof) the bible and other religious documents.
Your instinct is correct. Both Jesus and god(s) are fictions.
Newton authored and published his scientific works. We have his books, drawings, written correspondence with others, official records, etc. He invented calculus and discovered many facts which we call "Newtonian Physics/Mechanics".
Jesus appears in the scriptures first in Paul's letters that were written decades after his death. These first writings by Paul lack detail as they are "revealed" to him (as in dreams). As the gospels were written later on by unknown authors; oddly more details get filled in about him. Jesus starts checking all the same boxes of a typical 'savior god' popular in those days. There is zero physical scientific evidence of Jesus as of today. The Emperor Constantine converted and decided his Empire would be Christian and so here we are.
I see a trend whereby many Americans can't seem to tell the difference between reality and fiction.
I can't speak to Socrates, but there are multiple contemporaneous sources attesting to a historical Isaac Newton, in addition to his own books and letters, the reflecting telescope he himself made -- to say nothing of the official records of his employment at Cambridge, the Royal Mint, the Royal Society, and the House of Commons. Unless your friend wishes to assert those institutions made up respectively a fictitious student and professor, Master of the Mint, President, and MP, in a way not only consistent with each other, but with decades of other records.
There is nothing contemporaneous about Jesus, nothing he wrote, nothing he made, and the accounts in the gospels are contradictory regarding where and when he was born, the details of his ministry, and the events surrounding his death -- and none of which were written during his reported lifetime, nor supported by external accounts. There are no indisputable independent accounts attesting to the existence of Jesus; everything hangs on the gospels and they are inconsistent and contradictory among each other.
Advantage Newton.
I don't know about Jesus, but the Bible and the stories about Jesus are most certainly false. So Jesus of the Bible cannot exist.
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament†immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmamentâ€. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?
God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.
Quote from: aitm on June 10, 2021, 10:22:22 AMGod says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
(https://wutravels.com/Live/Content/Images/NightUnderSkiesLic.jpg)
To be fair, that's a pretty good guess for people without any sort of scientific understanding of space. The sky is blue, water is blue, there's a bunch of celestial bodies seemingly moving around (floating?) up there - water is a very intuitive choice. 100% wrong, but very intuitive.
Quote from: aitm on June 10, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament†immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmamentâ€. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?
God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.
Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Quote from: trdsf on June 09, 2021, 09:42:54 PM
I can't speak to Socrates, but there are multiple contemporaneous sources attesting to a historical Isaac Newton, in addition to his own books and letters, the reflecting telescope he himself made -- to say nothing of the official records of his employment at Cambridge, the Royal Mint, the Royal Society, and the House of Commons. Unless your friend wishes to assert those institutions made up respectively a fictitious student and professor, Master of the Mint, President, and MP, in a way not only consistent with each other, but with decades of other records.
There is nothing contemporaneous about Jesus, nothing he wrote, nothing he made, and the accounts in the gospels are contradictory regarding where and when he was born, the details of his ministry, and the events surrounding his death -- and none of which were written during his reported lifetime, nor supported by external accounts. There are no indisputable independent accounts attesting to the existence of Jesus; everything hangs on the gospels and they are inconsistent and contradictory among each other.
Advantage Newton
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:29:03 PMYeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
By that logic, Borat is more likely to exist than Jesus or Socrates.
Also, we know about Socrates through Plato and Xenophon. Erathosthenes was the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria. They kept records.
It's not like some unknown person came along and wrote about him decades after his death with obviously legendary accounts, like that as a kid, he sculpted sparrows out of clay and these sparrows took flight.
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:29:03 PM
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
No writing attributed to Socrates proclaims you that you must adhere just to be saved from an eternity of hell. You can value his philosophy on it's own merit. It matters not if he was a single person, a woman, or an entire philosophical school.
Socrates is just the strawman in your friend's argument anyways.
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.
Jimmy Harding in 1789 once walked across water in the backwoods of Virginia and even brought a dead squirrel back to life... which detail is really more important, that a Jimmy Harding did or didn't exist in Virginia in 1789 or that he did these miracles?
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:29:03 PM
Yeah what about socrates? Because im almost certain he will ask me how do I know that socrates and his philoshophy existed? Or eratosthenes. Because they lived way longer ago than jesus his arguement is stronger
Well, no it's not. He's the one who brought Newton into it, so by that alone his argument is broken.
In any case, we have multiple contemporaneous sources regarding Socrates -- not just Plato, but also Xenophon of Athens and Aristophanes. Regardless, you are
already entitled to expect from him comparable multiple external sources attesting to the historicity of Jesus -- and more than just single-word ambiguous mentions from decades after his alleged existence.
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant. Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
then he has a problem. Matthew 5:12 or 17...can't remember, jesus claims the old laws and prophets ( meaning the Torah=OT) are true.
Quote from: Shiranu on June 10, 2021, 03:57:17 PM
I wonder why it really matters if Jesus existed or not; it is his actions that should be examined, not if he did or didn't exist.
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not. His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously. If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant. If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant. I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind. We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
Quote from: luke on June 10, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
Hi. The thing is my friends says that the old testament with genesis is false and is the word of moses not god. He thinks that the new testament is correct and is bases on true facts.
Your 'friend' destroys his own argument. Moses is fictional and the OT is also fictional. When Paul quotes or uses 'scripture' what do you think he is referring to? The OT. So, Paul's writings, which are the first of the NT, are based on the OT which your 'friend' indicates is false. Instead of coming here and asking us to do all the work for you, why not research a little on the net?
Quote from: trdsf on June 10, 2021, 04:01:05 PM
If the Old Testament--and particularly Genesis--is false, then the New Testament is irrelevant. Without Genesis there is no "original sin" that the biblical god had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to make a loophole in his own rules.
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 11, 2021, 01:00:46 PM
I thought I had found an original sin once. But the lady showed me where it was listed on the menu. Had to try it.
Five stars, would sin again.
Quote from: SGOS on June 10, 2021, 05:04:58 PM
Beyond an academic exercise, I don't think it matters at all whether he existed or not. His alleged actions tell us all we can possibly know about him, so I examine those, and they are too absurd to be taken seriously. If Jesus did exist, he is not the person spoken of in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant. If he didn't exist, he is also irrelevant. I've never really understood why many atheists are compelled to conclude that he didn't exist, because it doesn't make any of the "truths" of Christianity any more or less relevant to mankind. We wouldn't even wonder about Jesus, if a bunch of primitive believers in magic hadn't made him up in the first place.
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist. They're all about what Paul decide Jesus
meant to say, than what he allegedly actually
did say.
Quote from: trdsf on June 11, 2021, 08:12:15 PM
And on top of that, most modern "Christian" sects are vastly more Paulist than they are Jesusist. They're all about what Paul decide Jesus meant to say, than what he allegedly actually did say.
If I remember correctly, Paul never quotes Jesus in any of his arguments. He does not really talk about him as though he was an actual person who was alive and walking the Earth. He refers to him as being in heaven. Jesus seems to be an ethereal entity and not a corporal
one. Richard Carrier does an excellent job of breaking down what in the OT Paul used to create his view of what Jesus was.
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical. As time marched on...the myths and stories were still useful and compelling to those who wanted a new direction. They have more power if people begin believing the stories are actually true.
Quote from: luke on June 09, 2021, 05:09:13 PM
Hello guys this is my first time in this forum and I just had a question. So I was debating my friend about the existence of god and he preassumed the bible and jesus are true and I asked him how is he certain. And he told me that with my logic we cant be sure if newton or sokrates (and others) exist and were real.
So what should I say to him so I can reason with him?
Well then, if what your friend argues is valid and sound then he answered your question - his presumption that "the bible and jesus are true" is invalid.
On another point, your friend is using the "hey look over there" fallacy.
Quote from: aitm on June 10, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
Here is a simple experiment. Read the first chapter of Genesis. Now, don’t just read it..LISTEN to it. Most people read it quickly because it is kind of a mumbo jumbo. But what it says...and really says, is the Heavens are the earth and the “firmament†immediately around the earth. Outside of that is water....everywhere. The stars, sun, moon are all within this “firmamentâ€. In other words, the heavens stops at the blue we see above our earth, then it is water. Because how else could water fall from the sky if it wasn’t water.
Later this is reinforced when the babble suggests that a third of the stars fell to the earth...how is that possible?Because the stars are just little twinkly things that a good archer and a strong bow could probably hit. Why else does the babble says the sky can be rolled up like a scroll? How else could a flying dragon gather a third of the stars and fling them to earth?
God says he separates the light from the darkness... is before he creates earth within the surrounding water. Then he creates the sun within the firmament....inside the great water surrounding us. So once we fired off our first rocket we should have passed the clouds, stars, sun and moon within a few miles then, whammo! Smack dap into the water that surround us.
But there is lots more whack a doo, if you actually read the babble. Where else can you find such nonsense?
Only in the bat shit crazy world of the babble.
I always wondered if God didn’t create the sun until the fourth day, how was he measuring days before that? And where was the light coming from?
Quote from: Cassia on June 11, 2021, 10:08:51 PM
It was very common for many cultures in early biblical times to teach very simply through 'mythical allegory'. Look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. It was never meant to be historical.
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods. There would be skeptics of course. But I have no knowledge to support my assumption. On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
Quote from: SGOS on July 29, 2021, 07:59:01 AM
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods. There would be skeptics of course. But I have no knowledge to support my assumption. On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
I think the writers of all of the material that is in the bible(s) of the world were believed by the original writers. But the genius of the bible is the work the propagandists/editors put into the selection and organization of the material they used. Those editors probably did not care if the material was 'true' or not; their true goal was to create material that furthered their agenda. I don't think belief mattered.
Quote from: SGOS on July 29, 2021, 07:59:01 AM
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods. There would be skeptics of course. But I have no knowledge to support my assumption. On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
I think the Greeks believed in their gods about the same way we believe in superheroes.
Quote from: Biffster on July 29, 2021, 09:58:23 AM
I think the Greeks believed in their gods about the same way we believe in superheroes.
It does seem rather obvious to the outsider that every culture had their own gods. Early American Indians also had a flood story, I believe it was called the reed and the turtle, very similar to other flood stories as quite simply floods are far more common world wide than any other calamity.
Quote from: aitm on July 29, 2021, 08:03:31 PM
It does seem rather obvious to the outsider that every culture had their own gods. Early American Indians also had a flood story, I believe it was called the reed and the turtle, very similar to other flood stories as quite simply floods are far more common world wide than any other calamity.
I would also guess the storytellers knew they were telling stories, much as a parent does for a child. Somewhere along the line Christians (among others) forgot the symbolism and started taking these things literally.
Quote from: SGOS on July 29, 2021, 07:59:01 AM
I always assumed the Greeks believed in their Gods. There would be skeptics of course. But I have no knowledge to support my assumption. On the other hand, who is to say the writers of the Bible actually believed what they were writing?
I do think they believed in their gods but I thought the stories about them were for education and entertainment and the religion did not hinge on the accuracy of the myths; only the existence of the gods. Homer decided when the gods will intervene and how the events will happen by using his creative genius and poetic talent. In the Iliad we have gods and heroes siding up for a historical war that took place. As Homer was writing after the fact... and as his readers were reading it... did they take it historically or philosophically? These stories were not claimed to be from the lips of the gods and perfect like the Bible or Koran.
Quote from: Cassia on July 30, 2021, 12:28:46 AMIn the Iliad we have gods and heroes siding up for a historical war that took place. As Homer was writing after the fact... and as his readers were reading it... did they take it historically or philosophically?
Unknown. I presume a mixture of both, as some religions allow their *cough* "simple" audiences to take a more direct and literal interpretation and more philosophy-inclined audiences to have a more metaphorical interpretation.
Sometimes I wonder if future historians will unearth some treasure trove of comics and assume that 20th century humans had revived worship of Thor after centuries of neglect.
The way the bible is constructed is a clue for me. Most think the bible simply dropped from heaven in it's present form. They don't care to look deeper to understand there is no 'the bible' for there are hundreds of forms of what is called the bible. The gospels as they stand now, was constructed from at least 85 gospels. The same for the rest of the bible. It was constructed by the 'early church fathers' from a vast amount of writings, with those materials not chosen destroyed by them. They were mainly interested in developing and maintaining power, both political and financial. They were master propagandists; one can 'prove' any point of view from those chosen writings.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 30, 2021, 09:19:25 AM
The way the bible is constructed is a clue for me. Most think the bible simply dropped from heaven in it's present form. They don't care to look deeper to understand there is no 'the bible' for there are hundreds of forms of what is called the bible. The gospels as they stand now, was constructed from at least 85 gospels. The same for the rest of the bible. It was constructed by the 'early church fathers' from a vast amount of writings, with those materials not chosen destroyed by them. They were mainly interested in developing and maintaining power, both political and financial. They were master propagandists; one can 'prove' any point of view from those chosen writings.
I much prefer the angel Moroni and Smith's gold plates written in "reformed Egyptian" as the source of all that is important, LOL.
Quote from: Cassia on July 30, 2021, 09:27:34 AM
I much prefer the angel Moroni and Smith's gold plates written in "reformed Egyptian" as the source of all that is important, LOL.
Me too. That makes so much more sense than the Bible. And there were actually gold plates to read it from, rather than just hersay, although Joseph Smith misplaced the plates, which could happen to anyone, but he remembered everything that was on them, especially the part where he should have more wives. But being the prophet that he was, he already knew that's what he wanted, so there wasn't really any need for the gold plates, anyway.
The poor gods….beset with having to deal with the pitiful what is their creation. “ I have known you in the wombâ€, I know when the first robin shall fallâ€, “ I know what day and hour thou shall cease………..what do you mean you lost my shit?â€
Of all the peeps to choose from, they can’t hold a tablet, keep a secret, or remember where they put the chariot keys…..lol
The only respectable entity iz da KRAKEN! I mean, just the way of calling her... RELEASE THE KRAKEN!
Ok, yes I know she gets released and all that, but still pretty able than the rest, no? And better looking.
Quote from: aitm on August 05, 2021, 12:22:43 PM
The poor gods….beset with having to deal with the pitiful what is their creation. “ I have known you in the wombâ€, I know when the first robin shall fallâ€, “ I know what day and hour thou shall cease………..what do you mean you lost my shit?â€
Of all the peeps to choose from, they can’t hold a tablet, keep a secret, or remember where they put the chariot keys…..lol
I have always wondered how the perfect god can only create flawed creatures on Earth????? Does that not make god imperfect???? and if the perfect god is imperfect...........................how can these whitless wonders worship he/she/it?????
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 05, 2021, 01:07:35 PM
I have always wondered how the perfect god can only create flawed creatures on Earth????? Does that not make god imperfect???? and if the perfect god is imperfect...........................how can these whitless wonders worship he/she/it?????
Don't forget, he created us in his own image.
Quote from: SGOS on August 05, 2021, 01:44:23 PM
Don't forget, he created us in his own image.
That, he apparently did. Except the first chpt. of Genesis tells us that man and woman were created in 'our' image and 'they' pronounced it good. So, I guess god is actually a committee.
Quote from: Cassia on July 30, 2021, 09:27:34 AM
I much prefer the angel Moroni and Smith's gold plates written in "reformed Egyptian" as the source of all that is important, LOL.
Actually, the claim was that the plates came from the Native Americans, who descended from the Jews, and to whom Jesus appeared before long ago in his second coming.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 05, 2021, 06:07:55 PM
Actually, the claim was that the plates came from the Native Americans, who descended from the Jews, and to whom Jesus appeared before long ago in his second coming.
That's because the Native Americans were actually Egyptians, LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian
I have never seen my paternal grandmother. She is said to have lived before i was born.
There are speculations that she lived for some time on earth.
Because I have never seen her, how can I be so certain of her existence?
It is weird.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 05, 2021, 07:12:09 PM
I have never seen my paternal grandmother. She is said to have lived before i was born.
There are speculations that she lived for some time on earth.
Because I have never seen her, how can I be so certain of her existence?
Hmm...did our ancestors exist? Gee, that's a tough one. *takes a big science book off the shelf to figure out how humans are made and get to the bottom of this mystery*