President Biden is proposing $10,000 in student loan forgiveness and many Democrats are pushing for at least $50,000, which would completely eliminate the burden of three in four borrowers. I’m conflicted regarding student loan forgiveness, mainly because I’m unclear on whether student loan forgiveness is the best way to address the consequences of the exorbitant costs of higher education. Will student loan forgiveness stimulate the economy? Help the younger generations have the same lifestyle as the older generations? Help correct for racial disparities? Make voters happy?
Clearly, there is a problem with the cost of education in the US and how it has been funded. Millennials are on track to be the first generation in modern history to end up poorer than their parents. Student loans are delaying retirements. They are suppressing the housing market and suffocating new business creation. They are leading young people to delay getting married and having children. They are also widening the country’s racial wealth gap because a higher share of Black college students take out loans and those loans tend to be bigger because Black students have access to less familial wealth.
So why not forgive student all loan debt? One concern is student loan forgiveness helps the wealthy rather than the poor. A majority of student-loan debt is held by Americans toward the top of the income scale, with 56 percent held by those with graduate degrees. Should the government be giving more money to the people who have access to the most lucrative jobs?
There is also the concern that student loan forgiveness is not fair. It is unfair to people who paid off their student loans; unfair to people who will take them out five or 10 years from now; unfair to people who declined to take them out and worked their way through school; unfair to people who chose community college instead of a private institution; unfair to people with private student-loan debt that the federal government could not disappear without an act of Congress.
Another concern with across-the-board student loan forgiveness is that, in the absence of other reforms, forgiving debt sets a precedent. Student borrowers (and the colleges they attend) may rightly expect another cancelation to happen at some point in the future when outstanding debt again climbs too high. This creates an incentive to borrow more in order to take advantage of that future jubilee and it gives colleges another reason to hike tuition.
I would like to see some kind of student loan forgiveness even if it is a Band-Aid fix. My preference would be targeted student loan forgiveness that is passed by Congress rather than executive action. There need to be eligibility requirements that target the lower-income borrowers. I would also prefer forgiveness for more undergraduate loans rather than graduate loans. I would like to see student loan forgiveness for all students who attended historically black colleges and universities, which have been underfunded for decades.
What are your thoughts?
I haven't been able to come up with a good set of thoughts for this question. I have about 10k in student loan debt myself, but I can afford to pay it back and plan to do so. Not everyone is in that situation. I understand how easy it is to rack up crazy debt, and so many of my coworkers (with medical doctorates) pay half their salaries back to loan companies and will continue to do so for at least 15-20 more years.
It's a weird conundrum because people cant get jobs without college degrees or trade certs, so college/trade school is almost a necessity. Loan forgiveness seems like a solution at the wrong end of the problem for me, but I support it. I think.
I had over $100,000 U$D written off when I graduated with my MA. All I had to do was work for the government for free, which I had already been doing.
Regarding 'fairness' in your fourth paragraph...
I'll respond in kind as I do to those in my team. Namely: is that a reason not to do it? If you can either help person a or neither person a nor b, is the fact that you can't help person b really a reason not to help a? Really?
My social workers have to work in a - personcentric fashion. They have to struggle to get exceptions through, to help those people. They Caan never get everyone out of the margin of society. But it is their job to get as many of those that they can. Sorry to those that we inevitably fail. And I will always try to support new and better ways to reach more people in significant matters.
But for Pete's sake. Imagine you had a doctor who said: I could cure your cancer, but it's not fair to those with incurable cancer or those who had it before our medicine got more advanced. Madness, innit?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 02, 2021, 01:32:18 PM
I had over $100,000 U$D written off when I graduated with my MA. All I had to do was work for the government for free, which I had already been doing.
That's great!
I didn't take any loans for my undergrad degree but from 1992-94 I borrowed $28K to go to graduate school. It took 10 years to pay it off.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 02, 2021, 01:49:17 PM
Regarding 'fairness' in your fourth paragraph...
I'll respond in kind as I do to those in my team. Namely: is that a reason not to do it?
Clearly I agree because I do think there should be some form of loan forgiveness. However, I don't see this as helping person A or person B. As Mermaid said, student loan forgiveness is a solution at the wrong end of the problem. It's like the roof is leaking and rather than repairing the roof we're buying bigger buckets. Instead of forgiving loans we could make tuition at state universities free.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 02, 2021, 02:16:27 PM
That's great!
I didn't take any loans for my undergrad degree but from 1992-94 I borrowed $28K to go to graduate school. It took 10 years to pay it off.
Clearly I agree because I do think there should be some form of loan forgiveness. However, I don't see this as helping person A or person B. As Mermaid said, student loan forgiveness is a solution at the wrong end of the problem. It's like the roof is leaking and rather than repairing the roof we're buying bigger buckets. Instead of forgiving loans we could make tuition at state universities free.
Well, as I mentioned, there may be other better solutions to work on, that I'd agree. But in lieu of them, already do what you can. Always do what you can. If you have the option to push through a non perfect improvement, go for it. Doesn't mean stop fighting or call it a day.
My wish would be that we make college affordable by funding it a level we did in the past when we were building a "More Perfect Union." It cost a lot, but America was getting stronger. We built interstate highways that cost a pretty penny too. Now America is richer, but politicians are saying we can't afford maintaining infrastructure. It's like America is getting poorer. Republicans have made people think taxes are too high. Maybe they are for some, but not for the 1% that holds 90% of the wealth.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 02, 2021, 02:27:40 PMAlways do what you can. If you have the option to push through a non perfect improvement, go for it. Doesn't mean stop fighting or call it a day.
Agreed. How expensive is higher education in Belgium?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 02, 2021, 05:50:58 PM
Agreed. How expensive is higher education in Belgium?
Relatively cheap. I mean, it still costs money. But what is intended is that if you apply and you don't have the means, you get a scholarship, regardless of your promise.
Since it's the governments doing, that college costs so much, it's right that they undo the bullshit with loan forgiveness.
Anyone who does more than 2 seconds of thinking understands that the reason there is no draft and will not be a draft, is because they cause college to be so expensive. It funnels people in to the military for the reason that Gawdzilla said: it forgives your college expenses, if you serve.
Why draft people, when you can make them think it was their choice? (Even if it was a lack of choice, from not being from a family of high wealth)
In the words of SOAD "why do they always send the poor"
But yes, they do need to make college less expensive. It is overly expensive right now. The loan forgiveness is a bandaid to something that can be fixed by the government mandating a cap on tuition costs. A low cap. At least for community college.
I joined the Navy out of high school because the Y-donor would never have paid for me to attend college when he didn't finish the 6th grade. After I retired I went to Purdue and got three degrees. When people told me "you should have gone to college instead of the Navy" I just laughed.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 03, 2021, 11:49:25 AM
I joined the Navy out of high school because the Y-donor would never have paid for me to attend college when he didn't finish the 6th grade. After I retired I went to Purdue and got three degrees. When people told me "you should have gone to college instead of the Navy" I just laughed.
Yes. As I said. College is too expensive, so that people that can't afford it, go in to the military because that is their best bet of getting a full education.
You couldn't afford it without going in to the Navy and that is exactly what I am saying about the whole college expense thing.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 03, 2021, 11:49:25 AM
I joined the Navy out of high school because the Y-donor would never have paid for me to attend college when he didn't finish the 6th grade. After I retired I went to Purdue and got three degrees. When people told me "you should have gone to college instead of the Navy" I just laughed.
I almost went to Purdue. I had a full 4-year scholarship from the Air Force in nuclear engineering and decided on North Carolina State University, mainly because it was close to my family. Four years of college followed by four years in the military gaining experience and then working in the private sector. My parents were understandably horrified when I dropped my scholarship, quit ROTC, switched my major to psychology, and came out. If I had gone to Purdue I couldn't have afforded tuition but at NCSU I was able to work, go to school, and not take out loans. In 1984 my tuition and fees at NCSU were $386.50 per semester.
My first semester at junior college cost $30/credit hour and a used text book was about $15. Part time job paid it all. When I enrolled for my master's degree 15 years later, I think it was about $1,000/hour and a book was over $100. Insanity. My employer picked that up, but I still paid taxes on it as if it was income.
My first year of college was at a Jr. College where I lived. Tuition was $15 a semester and books were loaned, and I lived at home. The college occupied 1 half of the third floor of my Chicago area high school, but in spite of the high school type situation, the professors were competent and demanding. I didn't realize it at the time, but it turned out be more challenging than my following years at the University, although nowhere near as interesting, where many of the professors were the best instructors I had ever seen.
But $30 for a year's worth of college credits, all of which transferred, must be a record of some sort. Of course this was way back before the inflation of the 70s. The university where that I attended next was on the quarter system, and if I remember right, the whole cost of a a quarter including room and board was somewhere around $400 ($1200 a year), which seemed like a lot of money then, but working for the Forest Service during the summer, and with all the help my parents could give me, both my parent's and I never had to take out loans.
My senor year, I changed my major to education and did qualify for what they called National Defense Loans, which I didn't have to pay back because I taught in a system where most of the students were from low income families. I was not required to make payments and 20% of the loan was forgiven each year for 5 years. But the amount I borrowed my senior year was only $1000. Rates were so cheap, it made sense to borrow that money, rather than to use my own.
That Jr. College now has it's own campus with several buildings, but when it was in the high school building, some clever students dug up about two square feet of someones lawn and placed it in the middle of the hallway of the college part of the building, and stuck a sign in it reading, "Please Don't Step on the Campus Grass."
Quote from: SGOS on March 04, 2021, 04:17:12 AM
That Jr. College now has it's own campus with several buildings, but when it was in the high school building, some clever students dug up about two square feet of someones lawn and placed it in the middle of the hallway of the college part of the building, and stuck a sign in it reading, "Please Don't Step on the Campus Grass."
LOL. I recall having 15 kids in my Jr college calculus class. It was truly a Socratic situation. When I transferred to state university, the class sizes were a lot larger and less personal. I graduated debt free. I can't even imagine starting out a career with huge debt. Greedy short term thinking fucks.
I've been reading articles on why college is so expensive and these seem to be the major reasons:
1) Since 1985 the demand for higher education has risen dramatically and increased demand raises prices. The more students who want to attend college, the more the cost of college increases, and the more students borrow money. As the expense of college increases and more people obtain degrees, the advantage of a college degree actually decreases.
2) State funding can't keep up with enrollment. Many state governments have cut operating support for higher education. States and local communities are spending less per student and therefore costs are passed on to students, who take out more loans.
3) More financial aid programs cause colleges to increase tuition. Knowing that students will get this financial-aid, colleges raise fees to capture that money.
4) Colleges have to pay university professors. Acquiring and recruiting highly educated faculty and staff costs money, especially in fields with significant demand outside academia. Things that could lower these costs â€" such as larger classes, more adjunct faculty, and fewer full-time professors, and shorter hours â€" are immensely unpopular with students, parents, and the public.
5) Colleges try to attract students with expensive amenities and support services. There has been an explosion in the number of non-teaching personnel on campus, with several administrators at top universities making six-figure salaries with fringe benefits and secretarial support. An estimated two-thirds of university budgets have nothing to do with teaching but instead go toward things like advocates, dormitories, and facilities.
The largest IMO...is the simple idea that in order for colleges to maintain the “lower/little†return degrees is to force other students to take classes that offer very little to the objective. Electives are the scourge but I realize they seem necessary to maintain the philosophy and English classes that really offer minuscule benefit to the engineering and physics classes. Come up with a better system.
Quote from: aitm on March 04, 2021, 08:37:51 PM
The largest IMO...is the simple idea that in order for colleges to maintain the “lower/little†return degrees is to force other students to take classes that offer very little to the objective. Electives are the scourge but I realize they seem necessary to maintain the philosophy and English classes that really offer minuscule benefit to the engineering and physics classes. Come up with a better system.
Yes and no. I firmly believe exposure to all the disciplines is necessary, but on the other hand, the amount of exposure to my area of interest did not go deep enough, even at the upper class-man level, and much of what I got there was of no more use to me than what I got in electives. The fact is some electives are crap and some are enlightening, just as core subjects can be.
Would you say that students of the seminary are forced to take too many subjects outside their area of specialty? Wouldn't you encourage them to take more classes that stress critical thinking and logic? We have seen in this forum how uniformed some of those seminary students can be. We've seen their tunnel vision and rigidity. We've seen how little they actually understand about atheism. And I think that is one area they should understand with exceptional clarity, but they fail miserably.
The last two years of college, I spent at what was basically a teacher's college that conferred on all graduates a Bachelor of Science degree only. They taught science classes for sure, but none were on par with what I had taken as an undergrad at the university. But at this Bachelor of Science college they had just initiated a new Bachelor of Arts degree, and my graduating class graduated their first and only Bachelor of Arts student at that time. He was also class valedictorian, and I suspect they made him valedictorian just to promote their new Arts degree, which the University President saw as a milestone in quality education and bla, bla, bla. My impression at the time was La-Dee-Fuckin'-Dah; A man for all seasons!
But in looking back now, I am grateful for many of those electives in English, Speech, Philosophy, economics, etc. For all it's faults, I came out of college with a wider perspective on life, and I have often thought about that as an unexpected good fortune. This is not to say that all of my classwork was a wonderful experience. Some of it was a total waste of time and money, but that applied to my areas of specialty as well as electives.
Continued from above:
On the other side of the coin, I had an opportunity to tour a community college in Seattle with my superintendent and another counselor from our high school in Montana, and it was the most fascinating and focused educational facility I had ever seen. It was a model for what you get when Corporate America takes over and funds education for it's own purposes. I could see the good in that, as well as the bad. It was funded with no expense spared by West Coast industry. Boeing was there, along with Kenworth Logging Trucks, Major Hotels, Restaurants, Machine Industries, General Motors, Hair salons, communications industries, and I can't remember them all.
You want graduates that can assemble a logging truck from parts? Kenworth gave them the parts of an entire logging truck, and taught them how to assemble it, with a job waiting for them upon graduation. You want to be an aeronautical engineer? Boeing supplied the college with a hanger full of planes including a fighter jet, a 747 engine that took up so much space they stored it on it's "tail" vertically, like a rocket, and an array of other planes and the electronics that come with them. Interested in Hotel and restaurant management? They had an on campus section that included a Hotel, MacDonald's, and a first class restaurant where we had lunch prepared by supervised students and were greeted by a student hostess in a formal dress that treated us like royalty. The same can be said for all the curricular offerings available there. The administrator that guided us around seemed to favor their machine shop the most. He referred to those students as the "creme-de-la-creme."
I asked if they also taught courses in math and English, and our guide seemed a little defensive, answering, "Yes, of course," but I got the impression that he thought I was missing the point of it all. Believe me. I saw the point. You want skilled personnel? This is the place you would go to find your dream staff. Were the students well rounded? I don't know, but they came out skilled.
On the other hand, I wonder where the guys that designed that new Boeing 737 that keeps crashing all the time came from?
Quote from: SGOS on March 05, 2021, 03:44:07 AM
On the other hand, I wonder where the guys that designed that new Boeing 737 that keeps crashing all the time came from?
The engineers knew the problems presented by the bigger engines on the 737 max. Boeing management wanted to save money by certifying the plane as an upgrade rather than as a new aircraft type. They downplayed the changes, including pilot training on the new automatic attitude control (MCAS) and the FAA fell for it. Internal memos revealed a toxic culture of engineers caving in to management, much pressure to meet the schedule, and the FAA over-relying on Boeing. It wasn't a really technical 'miss' as much as a corporate greed culture that had seeped in.
Quote from: Cassia on March 05, 2021, 07:22:34 AM
It wasn't a really technical 'miss' as much as a corporate greed culture that had seeped in.
Yeah, I actually knew that, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to make a joke out of it.
Quote from: SGOS on March 05, 2021, 02:51:34 AM
But in looking back now, I am grateful for many of those electives in English, Speech, Philosophy, economics, etc. For all it's faults, I came out of college with a wider perspective on life, and I have often thought about that as an unexpected good fortune. This is not to say that all of my classwork was a wonderful experience. Some of it was a total waste of time and money, but that applied to my areas of specialty as well as electives.
NC State school of engineering felt like a big technical school and many engineering students hated taking classes that were not directly related to their field. I transferred to UNC-Asheville, which was a liberal arts university, and the emphasis was on humanities and teaching students how to think, job preparation was secondary. Every student at UNC-Asheville is required to take a sequential humanities track each year:
UNC Asheville's Humanities Program explores what it means to be human. We examine the human experience by looking at what we’ve achieved in our several thousand years of recorded history, including our diverse values and beliefs, and how these concerns and passions influence our time. Humanities courses aren’t just about history; they draw together faculty and subject matter across subjects including history, literature, philosophy, religion, natural science, social science and fine arts. Humanities helps us make educated and ethical decisions as we strive to solve problems and make progress as a civilization.I watched this video which included an explanation of how higher education works in Australia. Their Higher Education Contribution Scheme allows students to attend university at no up-front expense. Students don't pay for their education until they graduate and are employed at least $52K a year. At that point, they pay a significantly higher tax rate until their educational expenses are paid off. This allows the government to control price levels. Because almost no one pays out of pocket for their education, universities have to follow the government's pricing guidelines.
https://youtu.be/Rqv0nuP4OAU
My undergrad in the mid-80s was a little north of $800 per semester.
My most recent grad (2020) was $25,000 a semester. The caveat is that undergrad was a state school and recent grad was an Ivy, but still.
The JC I went to was almost free. The fees were so little I could pay for them by one season of working in the garlic fields. My 4 yr college, counting room and board, was cheap enough that I could attend with the help of a loan of less than 2 grand total. After getting out of the Army, the GI bill paid for the last year of my teaching credential fees. Then when I got my first teaching job (for the huge pay of $6600 a year), the rest of my college loans were forgiven. But that was over 50 yrs ago. Like all else of this society, the infrastructure is only just hanging on. Like the bridges of this country, our infrastructure is very close to collapse.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 03, 2021, 02:10:01 AM
Since it's the governments doing, that college costs so much, it's right that they undo the bullshit with loan forgiveness.
Anyone who does more than 2 seconds of thinking understands that the reason there is no draft and will not be a draft, is because they cause college to be so expensive. It funnels people in to the military for the reason that Gawdzilla said: it forgives your college expenses, if you serve.
Why draft people, when you can make them think it was their choice? (Even if it was a lack of choice, from not being from a family of high wealth)
In the words of SOAD "why do they always send the poor"
But yes, they do need to make college less expensive. It is overly expensive right now. The loan forgiveness is a bandaid to something that can be fixed by the government mandating a cap on tuition costs. A low cap. At least for community college.
Oh wow I've just remembered ...apart from your comment which I completely agree by the way...The reason that of our 3 beloved old regulars leaving this forum was me beating on this very issue. Particularly with TomFlooery...But Sabrina and what was his name...our ex mormon, veteran member? I can't probably remember his name because I actually feel guilty about it somehow... yeah yeah I am not the most subtle one...doesn't change the facts. (Not that facts, Paolo.) Oh wow...whistle
Everything's changed. And considering that is too nothing and too fast, probably nothing has actually changed. Hope they're safe anyway. aaarrag...ooof.
I already paid back my student loans. How can I benefit from this...
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 01, 2021, 09:38:33 PM
I already paid back my student loans. How can I benefit from this...
1) Create a fake online university.
2) Get friends to take out tens of thousands of dollars in student loans paid to your university.
3) Wait for the student loan forgiveness.
4) Split the profit with your friends.
QuoteHow can I benefit from this...
Why does that matter?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 01, 2021, 09:53:04 PM
1) Create a fake online university.
2) Get friends to take out tens of thousands of dollars in student loans paid to your university.
3) Wait for the student loan forgiveness.
4) Split the profit with your friends.
(https://i.imgur.com/6SHbopw.jpg)
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 01, 2021, 09:38:33 PM
I already paid back my student loans. How can I benefit from this...
At one time I would have said a more educated public makes the country stronger, and it would have reduced unemployment and created a larger tax base.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 01, 2021, 09:38:33 PM
I already paid back my student loans. How can I benefit from this...
Live in a country where people can earn a living wage. Reap the benefits of a happy, thriving economy.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 03, 2021, 02:21:56 PM
Yes. As I said. College is too expensive, so that people that can't afford it, go in to the military because that is their best bet of getting a full education.
You couldn't afford it without going in to the Navy and that is exactly what I am saying about the whole college expense thing.
I didn't plan on going to college when I joined. My plan was to get the fuck out of Indiana. If I had hijacking skills I would have flown out of there sooner.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 02, 2021, 12:45:15 PM
I didn't plan on going to college when I joined. My plan was to get the fuck out of Indiana. If I had hijacking skills I would have flown out of there sooner.
I was reading that college students change their major an average of three times. A girlfriend from Poland says they were tested for aptitude each school year and a "
recommendation" was levied by the communist government. Now we don't need that, but in the US...without a strong mentor or role model so many young folks just kind of meander, hoping eventually something will stick. Really lacking in teaching both financial planning and all about career ideas in typical high schools.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 01, 2021, 09:54:21 PM
Why does that matter?
If the government is going to trample on the economy, I want to be on the side of those doing the trampling and not those being trampled.
Quote from: Cassia on May 02, 2021, 05:44:40 PM
I was reading that college students change their major an average of three times. A girlfriend from Poland says they were tested for aptitude each school year and a "recommendation" was levied by the communist government. Now we don't need that, but in the US...without a strong mentor or role model so many young folks just kind of meander, hoping eventually something will stick. Really lacking in teaching both financial planning and all about career ideas in typical high schools.
I set my plan out while I was on active duty. I did bachelors is Psych and Soc and grad school was History. Got my Masters before my heart started acting up.