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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PM

Title: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PM
I saw the title of this opinion piece and thought "I am going to try to read this with an open mind." I didn't even make it past the first sentence.

3 Things People Get Wrong About Evangelicals (https://www.newsweek.com/3-things-people-get-wrong-about-evangelicals-opinion-1567648)

I have always thought of Christianity as the most inclusive societal movement known to humankind. To the depths of our souls as Christians, we believe that everyone is equally made in the image of God and equally loved by God. ...

Christianity is inclusive if you mean that they will accept anyone who wants to convert to their religion but evangelical Christians do not to accept other religions as true. Most want America to be "one nation under God" with a government based on Biblical principles. Only those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved.

Misunderstanding 1: Evangelicals are anti-LGBTQ

This is one of the most common misunderstandings of my community out there, and one that is particularly important to me as I have so many friends and loved ones that are members of the LGBTQ community. Evangelics are frequently maligned as anti-LGBTQ and I just don't believe this is accurate. Evangelicals are not anti-anybody. Our Bible is very clear about this: "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." For many evangelicals, this means serving our brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community.
...

Evangelical Christians are always at the forefront of blocking any legislation that would provide any legal protections for LGBTQ people. They "love" LGBTQ people but they don't want LGBTQ people to marry, have children or have the same legal protections as straight people. For example, Arkansas’s senate just passed a religious exemptions bill for medical personnel that’s so expansive that it would allow any medical professional to refuse to help LGBTQ people â€" or even refer them to someone else â€" and face no consequences for that discrimination. This bill was presented and supported by Christians because they don't want to work with people who have relationships they find offensive, so the author might want to think about why LGBTQ people believe Christians don't support them.

Misunderstanding 2: Evangelicals are anti-science

Another big misunderstanding I see a lot is that evangelicals are anti-science. This, too, isn't accurate. Christians believe in science; we just believe that God was the creator of science and that everything He created bears a divine order and a logical construct. ...


As long as science doesn't lead to any conclusions that question a divine creator or challenge their beliefs they are good with it.

Misunderstanding 3: Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth.

Abortion has to be one of the most divisive issues in our country today. Americans are split over the right of a woman to choose abortion and the rights of the unborn in the womb. Evangelicals largely (though not always) side with the pro-life movement. But the idea that Evangelicals turn our backs on people in need after birth is inconsistent with the factsâ€"and with our faith. ...


I do agree that this is an unfair criticism because I don't see the evidence that Christians ignore the needs of children or adults. Christians often adopt children and are willing to be foster parents. There are a lot of Christian organizations that provide charity services to adults and children. Many evangelical Christians oppose the death penalty.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Hydra009 on February 12, 2021, 03:54:48 PM
Funny how no one's anti-science but there's a heaping helping of science denialism out there.  Who's taking part in it?  No one?

Creationism in particular is supposedly supported by no one, yet was a widespread idea and was involved in a flurry of legislation and lawsuits a little over a decade ago.  Hell, it polled at 40% (https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx) just a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Cassia on February 12, 2021, 03:58:49 PM
Misunderstanding 3: Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth.

Considering they are often pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and even anti-maskers, and pro-gather in churches...they often do have little regard for life after birth.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Hydra009 on February 12, 2021, 04:09:42 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PMI do agree that this is an unfair criticism because I don't see the evidence that Christians ignore the needs of children or adults. Christians often adopt children and are willing to be foster parents. There are a lot of Christian organizations that provide charity services to adults and children. Many evangelical Christians oppose the death penalty.
Ehh...evangelical Christians are very frequently supporters of right-wing policies that quite literally rip kids from their parents' arms as well as the least possible amount of government assistance to those in need.  To say nothing of the massive Christian gatherings during coronavirus and the associated spread of deadly disease.

Christian charities which provide no-strings-attached assistance to the needy is incredibly laudable, but often the image of benevolence is somewhat different (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan%27s_Purse#Criticism) from the reality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Vision_International#Controversy).

And while evangelicals themselves may or may not support the death penalty, their right-wing representatives certainly do, so in what sense are they opposed to the death penalty?
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Mike Cl on February 12, 2021, 04:17:44 PM
It is often been pointed out that Sunday is the most segregated day of the week.  So, it must not be christian churches that foster that.  Damn muslims!! 

Ah!  It must be those damned mud people--just can't trust them.  And we all know how inclusive those evangelical christian white nationalists are.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: Cassia on February 12, 2021, 03:58:49 PM
Misunderstanding 3: Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth.

Considering they are often pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and even anti-maskers, and pro-gather in churches...they often do have little regard for life after birth.

That's a stretch. I hate guns but I don't equate the right to own guns as having no regard for human life. Is everyone serving in the military indifferent to human life? Christians certainly aren't the only ones refusing to wear masks and congregating on a regular basis, e.g. GaysOverCovid.

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2021-01/8/20/asset/792d7102656e/sub-buzz-700-1610136107-13.jpg?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto)
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Cassia on February 12, 2021, 05:06:33 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 04:37:45 PM
That's a stretch. I hate guns but I don't equate the right to own guns as having no regard for human life. Is everyone serving in the military indifferent to human life? Christians certainly aren't the only ones refusing to wear masks and congregating on a regular basis, e.g. GaysOverCovid.

The irony of the Jesus crowd being over the top pro-gun and often pro-war (especially if we are killing Muslims) while their savior went like a lamb to the slaughter. Not saying they have a monopoly, but the argument that they cherish adult life is laughable. Let's not forget the Christian past...involving crusades, inquisitions, witch burning, extermination of Jews, destruction of native Americans and slaveholding as provided for in their Bible.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
Quote from: Cassia on February 12, 2021, 05:06:33 PM
The irony of the Jesus crowd being over the top pro-gun and often pro-war (especially if we are killing Muslims) while their savior went like a lamb to the slaughter. Not saying they have a monopoly, but the argument that they cherish adult life is laughable. Let's not forget the Christian past...involving crusades, inquisitions, witch burning, extermination of Jews, destruction of native Americans and slaveholding as provided for in their Bible.

I don't think Christians cherish adult life but I don't think they only care about unborn life. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are morally bankrupt belief systems. Even if followers of Abrahamic religions behaved ideally according to their religions, they would still be morally reprehensible. The problem isn't Christians don't live up to their values, the problem is they do.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Hydra009 on February 12, 2021, 06:39:45 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 05:41:06 PMI don't think Christians cherish adult life but I don't think they only care about unborn life.
If they lobbied against war and poverty as vociferously as they lobby against abortion, then I would say that they care deeply about both.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Blackleaf on February 12, 2021, 08:13:54 PM
Okay. Let's see what I "get wrong" about a group of people I used to be one of.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PM
I saw the title of this opinion piece and thought "I am going to try to read this with an open mind." I didn't even make it past the first sentence.

3 Things People Get Wrong About Evangelicals (https://www.newsweek.com/3-things-people-get-wrong-about-evangelicals-opinion-1567648)

I have always thought of Christianity as the most inclusive societal movement known to humankind.

(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/eefb541a-a58d-41d5-9822-f4a1a62fd001/dcf0npb-dc183d9e-7fd1-4df4-a989-d370c04928b3.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZWVmYjU0MWEtYTU4ZC00MWQ1LTk4MjItZjRhMWE2MmZkMDAxXC9kY2YwbnBiLWRjMTgzZDllLTdmZDEtNGRmNC1hOTg5LWQzNzBjMDQ5MjhiMy5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.7aGK0B6BGMk0FtqNKw8HkZTs---_jecUclAVWorR6ZQ)

Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PMTo the depths of our souls as Christians, we believe that everyone is equally made in the image of God and equally loved by God. ...

Christianity is inclusive if you mean that they will accept anyone who wants to convert to their religion but evangelical Christians do not to accept other religions as true. Most want America to be "one nation under God" with a government based on Biblical principles. Only those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved.

Misunderstanding 1: Evangelicals are anti-LGBTQ

This is one of the most common misunderstandings of my community out there, and one that is particularly important to me as I have so many friends and loved ones that are members of the LGBTQ community. Evangelics are frequently maligned as anti-LGBTQ and I just don't believe this is accurate. Evangelicals are not anti-anybody. Our Bible is very clear about this: "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." For many evangelicals, this means serving our brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community.
...

Evangelical Christians are always at the forefront of blocking any legislation that would provide any legal protections for LGBTQ people. They "love" LGBTQ people but they don't want LGBTQ people to marry, have children or have the same legal protections as straight people. For example, Arkansas’s senate just passed a religious exemptions bill for medical personnel that’s so expansive that it would allow any medical professional to refuse to help LGBTQ people â€" or even refer them to someone else â€" and face no consequences for that discrimination. This bill was presented and supported by Christians because they don't want to work with people who have relationships they find offensive, so the author might want to think about why LGBTQ people believe Christians don't support them.

Yeah, that's some nice rhetoric that is commonly heard in church. The problem is that their actions belie their true feelings about the LGBTQ+, and actions speak louder. They don't love the LGBTQ+; they want to fix them, or exterminate them, if necessary. They do not want them to exist openly, but to live in fear of being outed, like the good old days they pine for. They don't want them to embrace what they are, but to suppress it and live in celibacy. The LGBTQ+ are "equal" to them, but only in the sense that they have an equal right to live like they're straight.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PMMisunderstanding 2: Evangelicals are anti-science

Another big misunderstanding I see a lot is that evangelicals are anti-science. This, too, isn't accurate. Christians believe in science; we just believe that God was the creator of science and that everything He created bears a divine order and a logical construct. ...


As long as science doesn't lead to any conclusions that question a divine creator or challenge their beliefs they are good with it.

Yeah, Christians believe in science. That's why when they hear some bogus story about science proving them right, they gobble it up. They know that having science on your side brings legitimacy. But just like with the Bible, they ignore the stuff that doesn't align with their beliefs and assumptions. Just as Christians will substitute theology with baseless exegesis, they'll also substitute real science with pseudo-science.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PMMisunderstanding 3: Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth.

Abortion has to be one of the most divisive issues in our country today. Americans are split over the right of a woman to choose abortion and the rights of the unborn in the womb. Evangelicals largely (though not always) side with the pro-life movement. But the idea that Evangelicals turn our backs on people in need after birth is inconsistent with the factsâ€"and with our faith. ...


I do agree that this is an unfair criticism because I don't see the evidence that Christians ignore the needs of children or adults. Christians often adopt children and are willing to be foster parents. There are a lot of Christian organizations that provide charity services to adults and children. Many evangelical Christians oppose the death penalty.

Christian Evangelicals focus on overturning Roe v. Wade and making abortions illegal, and even punishable under the law. This despite the fact that abortions have been on a steady downward trend since Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood facilities started providing safe options. If they really wanted to kill abortion, they'd focus on preventing the need for them in the first place. Increase access to healthcare? Nope. Include contraceptives and the use of condoms in sex education? Nah, teach them to wait until marriage. That'll totally work. Rather than focus on the things that would actually make abortions happen less often, they focus on taking away rights from women, forcing them to have to take unsafe options instead, because that's how Christian Evangelicals do. They're not constructive; they're destructive. This is true with every issue they take part in. They want to take rights away from others to force them into living according to Evangelical Christian standards.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 12, 2021, 08:13:54 PM
Yeah, that's some nice rhetoric that is commonly heard in church. The problem is that their actions belie their true feelings about the LGBTQ+, and actions speak louder. They don't love the LGBTQ+; they want to fix them, or exterminate them, if necessary. They do not want them to exist openly, but to live in fear of being outed, like the good old days they pine for. They don't want them to embrace what they are, but to suppress it and live in celibacy. The LGBTQ+ "equal" to them, but only in the sense that they have an equal right to live like they're straight.

Jesus' unconditional love seems to come with a lot of conditions.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 13, 2021, 08:17:06 AM
I guess the cousins aren't evangelicals.

I'll have to tell them tomorrow when I go to church. (j/k)
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 09:53:56 AM
Yeah, no... I don't think we misunderstand anything about evangelicals.

If your goal is to spread your belief world wide, you are a serious threat to human civilisation. Period. The rest is 'it's a religion of peace!'
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 11:02:45 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 04:37:45 PM
That's a stretch. I hate guns but I don't equate the right to own guns as having no regard for human life. 

No, it is not a stretch, maybe a strawman. Besides the fact that the gun problem in the US is far beyond what you described, it's not about one pro-something either.

QuoteIs everyone serving in the military indifferent to human life?

That's a very manipulating question. The US military is completely private and it's practically mercenary. There hasn't been a conflict/attack on US soil since when? Don't say 9/11. How many invasions and international wars have been launched since? Through open lies by government no less. Just the previous decade.  So, the answer is yes. If you take up arms and become an active combatant in the US army, you need to be indifferent to human life. If you think that it is OK; that it is just life to be paid, get some scholarship, medical insurance to travel to specific regions of the world to kill people there, you are indifferent to human life.

The US military is not protecting American people. They won't protect the civilians from some potential civil conflict either. They will just respond to protect the federal government and its order, and kill the civilians if necessary. That's what an army is. Esp. one like US army.

This is a complete picture: "...pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and even anti-maskers, and pro-gather in churches ..." Add that the pro-life (Evangelists are responsbile from abortion rights being abolished/prevented to develop everywhere possible, including some European countries. They've succeed in Poland. They are very organised and actively working/supporting to abolish various kinds of modern laws under religious beliefs) and their motto is basically, 'if you don't agree with us, you are our enemy'. Do you need some Middle Eastern ethnic dressed, long bearded men with weapons to see past this? It's a fucking jihad. If you are trying to spread a religion, you are just a step away from terrorism. You don't have to hold a gun. (I'm not convinced they don't/won't hold a gun either. TOO much money is involved and human life is very cheap.) But yeah money works better, in wider scales because wealth distribution is terrible. This is exactly what extremist muslim groups do everwhere in the world. Money, jobs, women...and they are very successful because it works.   

A group of gay people advocating against masks nowhere near an example against this. You can bet there are evangelical gay groups too.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Hydra009 on February 13, 2021, 01:54:31 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 09:53:56 AMIf your goal is to spread your belief world wide, you are a serious threat to human civilisation. Period.
That's the stated goal of most major religions.  And as we have seen, they'll go to great lengths to increase their market share.  Humanity's purpose is to serve the ideology, rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 02:07:03 PM
Sure. But certain subgroups I'll say, I'm sick of religious terms, thrives on it. Honestly, looking at Sunnis, to Shis AND then Alevits, there is a great difference in that department or maybe I perceive it that way. E: Evangelicals have a different place in that sense too in a bad way.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 13, 2021, 05:12:37 PM
Drunkenshoe, I know you dislike surveys but...

White Evangelicals Are More Likely to Believe in QAnon Than Any Other Faith Group, Poll Finds (https://www.newsweek.com/white-evangelicals-are-more-likely-believe-qanon-any-other-faith-group-poll-finds-1568734)

... In the survey conducted by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), 27 percent of white evangelicals said it was "mostly" or "completely" accurate to say that Trump "has been secretly fighting a group of child sex traffickers that include prominent Democrats and Hollywood elites."

That percentage is higher than any other faith group surveyed, and more than double the support for QAnon beliefs among Black Protestants, Hispanic Catholics and non-Christians, according to data shared Thursday with Newsweek.

"White evangelical Protestants are much more likely than other religious groups to believe that Trump has been secretly fighting a child-sex-trafficking ring that includes prominent people on the left," Daniel Cox, the author of the survey and director of the AEI Survey Center on American Life, told Newsweek.

This wasn't the only conspiracy category where white evangelicals held the strongest belief, Cox added.

"White evangelical Protestants are also much more likely to say that the deep state has been working to undermine the Trump administration and that antifa was mostly responsible for the violence at the U.S. Capitol," he said.

The survey also found that white evangelicals express more pride in being American than any other religious group, with 50 percent of respondents saying they are "extremely proud" of their national identity.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Cassia on February 13, 2021, 06:58:12 PM
Safe to say there is plenty of "preconditioning" to believing what they are told without any evidence amongst evangelicals. Literal interpretation of the holy books is a form of insanity IMHO. Qanon theories are rather mundane compared to claims written in holy books
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 09:48:49 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 13, 2021, 05:12:37 PM
Drunkenshoe, I know you dislike surveys but...

White Evangelicals Are More Likely to Believe in QAnon Than Any Other Faith Group, Poll Finds (https://www.newsweek.com/white-evangelicals-are-more-likely-believe-qanon-any-other-faith-group-poll-finds-1568734)

Well, they are like the enthusiastic group going for camping singing songs, while the rest stays in school compared to other Christian groups. They do really share with QANON. They both believe they are saving the world and that the rest is the enemy. 

Quote...Supporters of the conspiracy also believed that Trump would reveal his commitment to taking down the sex trafficking on the day of Biden's inauguration, and subsequently remain in office. ...

Why is remaining in the office subsequent to revealing his commitment to taking down sex traffickers? Why does he announce that first and then the presidency?
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 13, 2021, 11:15:49 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on February 13, 2021, 09:48:49 PM
Why is remaining in the office subsequent to revealing his commitment to taking down sex traffickers? Why does he announce that first and then the presidency?

Far be it from me to explain the reasoning of Christians but this sounds like Trump was going to "blow the case wide open" on the cannibal sex ring, kind of like revealing that the DNC is run by alien lizard humanoids, and then everyone would be begging him to take office. He would be the savior of America!

BLESSED IS THE DONALD!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.jGYaXHDusvI_ECF11mhy3AHaGD?pid=ImgDet&dpr=2.62)
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 14, 2021, 06:25:23 AM
Hmm... The long story short, the systematic mass child abuse by Catholic priests; their detailed, life long protection is a massive real world and life issue Christian circles cannot deal with. (Catholic or protestant...etc. In this context, that's not really important. It's about the traditional position, the general trust and respect the clergy enjoys. That's how the money flows in.) It's not going to go away and will only grow. What do you do with something you can't deal? You transform and project it. It's a real issue and all that batshit crazy stuff has to have some connection to reality. Well, it is not going to be gun violence, or distribution of wealth, poverty, environment or growing homeless population, is it? It needs to be something emotionally abusive, spiking ire, definitely sexual in nature (the biggest religious obsession) something disgusted by everyone on principle.

So, I think if it wasn't for this major issue effecting their general identity, reputation seriously Orange's first deed as a saviour wouldn't be the pedohile rings. These people have a child like mind. They really do see him like a 5 year old sees Superman. So it is a traditional heroic deed, a signature to prove himself.

[The long part is... Today, the systematic sexual abuse of Catholic priests is a mainstream issue. It's huge, massive. A relatively short time ago it wasn't. Sure, some people knew about it here and there, but it wasn't in the open. That's the crucial thing. This issue is not just something about the crimes commited against thousands of children and adults, but it is also a global crisis and the biggest impact on Christianity in general, which is the major religious base of Western culture. Well, actually it's more accurate to say, it would have been a global crisis for Christianity because 9/11 has changed everything and created a very different world. (I remember watching videos of specific protestors from Europe in mid 90s, they also used to join every kind of major protests to make this issue known. That's actually how I strated to learn about it back then. But there wasn't anything in hand's reach.)

Now, if you have an experience of pre-9/11 world as an adult, it is a 'place' where the media is still dictated by the prime time news in television news channels. That means when something big happens, everywhere around the world people get the same news at the same time. and that's what they've planned and wanted to do with these cases. Exploding the whole thing at once left and right, starting a chain reaction in a time when they can demand the attention of most people altogether. Imagine that. The cases are so openly ugly and straight, weeks and months on end people would have listened or watched about these priests, the ones at the top level protecting them. Thousands upon thousands. Well, it didn't happen. And it has become this big issue going slow, coming and going out of media in parts, and so a huge space is provided for its denial. Most of the people choose not to even pay attention to it. Because it's religion, because they are priests and humans have this incredible defense and denial mechanism, esp. when they believe in something. (There are conspiracy theories about this related to 'one stone 10 bird' 9/11 as you would imagine.)

And then the post 9/11 world politics are based on religious division. It's actually boosted religious groups, forced them to come together. Terrorism, daily life, wars, new media mediums, new trade and economy forms, new laws, fractions. A whole new culture. Terrorism, ideologies and identities have become a new products to sell like shampoo. So the reception and the perception of these crimes and events have changed. Sure everyone is angry and think it's horrendous. That's not the point. Also today, most people would openly say they don't care about it or defend that nobody should care about it because, if someone is stupid enough being that religous, and leave their children with these people, they deserve the face these kind of consequences. Yeah the red pill, post truth zeitgeist.

The point is, it scared the hell out of all the religious circles everywhere around the world when it's become a widely known issue. Because child abuse first, any kind of sexual abuse in general is the main issue in every religious institution. It's a never ending attrocity. Religion is the perfect heaven for these crimes. It scared the hell out of religious people, annoyed and triggered many of them and they've started to hold on anything to deny it. There are cases of priests who's commited these crimes for 50 years while being protected and circulated around. It goes back to around WWI. There isn't a one thing to hold on. It's an unbelievable mess.

It's still largely denied by 'not all of priests like that'. Whatever the fuck that means. Yeah dear millenials, before NAWALT and NAMALT, there was the NAPALT! The history, cultural history lessons in the 22 century will be a 'hoot' and will 25+ age restriction.]

Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Blackleaf on February 14, 2021, 07:45:58 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 13, 2021, 11:15:49 PM
Far be it from me to explain the reasoning of Christians but this sounds like Trump was going to "blow the case wide open" on the cannibal sex ring, kind of like revealing that the DNC is run by alien lizard humanoids, and then everyone would be begging him to take office. He would be the savior of America!

BLESSED IS THE DONALD!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.jGYaXHDusvI_ECF11mhy3AHaGD?pid=ImgDet&dpr=2.62)

lol. I might make that my new avatar.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on February 16, 2021, 12:31:19 PM
More evangelical Christian nonsense.

https://youtu.be/CU-zJCvhz4I
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Iscariote on February 18, 2021, 03:31:52 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 16, 2021, 12:31:19 PM
More evangelical Christian nonsense.

https://youtu.be/CU-zJCvhz4I

"Evangelical University" sounds like an oxymoron.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 18, 2021, 04:58:22 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 16, 2021, 12:31:19 PM
More evangelical Christian nonsense.

https://youtu.be/CU-zJCvhz4I

OK. I don't get something. Paraphrasing- 'if students do not feel bad about their sexual activities, repent...etc. they would need to see a chaplain and/or risk suspension'. This probbaly means there is a door for expulsion. Can they do that? In what frame? As far as I know, the United States doesn't have adultery laws. I don't know if there is anything in the constitution protecting sexual rights, but I doubt if they can legally suspend someone from some place for having sex. What do they do? Make people sign some sort of a waiver?

However, instead of taking this from any sort of possible legal angle, taking religious sexual oppression issue from the abuse aspect is actually playing into this very religous play and feeding it. Because that's the whole point. It is about turning people into self hating, bitter, angry, agitated, helpless beings, and sexual humiliation, shaming is a guaranteed way to provide that. Human culture figured that out eons ago.  And as humans are very unsuccessful with supressing this at esp. young ages, it is the confirmation, 'relevation' about human nature, the religious definition of human, branding it into their brains. "See, religion is right, you are all of full of sin and naturally evil."

Also there is another point of this merging with the far right, atheist red pill groups. As sex is not a need for survival, celibacy to the point of no masturbation is imposed on young men to 'strengthen' their manhood, stay away from females and be agressive with them while interacting. In other religious-far right cultures, this is consciously done for keeping males sexually agressive. It's the imposed definition of 'male'. Because it's a good way of shooting pretty big birds with one stone. Instilling fear and providing control. It normalises sexual abuse, rape and transforms them into normal consequences of human interaction for males; punishment for females. (I'm taking it from het angle as both groups are very hostile to lgbtq+ groups.) 

So, while the religious environments he is describing is very unhealthy places for people, bluntly put, it is redundant and late for taking this from a pyschological abuse angle. Unfortunately, from what I observe, American society is going under this specific transformation right now bit by bit, but as it is constantly compared with 3rd world cultures, esp. islamic ones, it seems to escape most people in daily life. People don't even think it is possible. Exactly like the people where I live 20, actually 10 years ago. The irony.

Because, again, fear changes human behaviour. When women start to feel afraid to go out to get drunk and slutty if you will, the whole society changes. Yeah well, genders are not equal in this sense. Because then that society becomes hell for most of the males too. It's a very sneaky, unbelievable process. Nobody is aware when it is happening and then suddenly it is there.

People need to fight more solid, legal battles with this. "I was feeling this... people start to feel that way..." These groups perfectly know what they are doing. They are trying to transform the society on a schedule, step by step, and people are talking about the individual pyschology of the thing.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Unbeliever on February 19, 2021, 11:04:59 PM
I heard that Katie Perry's (I think it was) parents are preachers, they have a charity (don't know what it's supposed to be for) that they used 96% of for their own needs. That's exactly what religion is for, fleecing the sheep.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 05, 2021, 09:28:49 AM
Religious conservatives of Tennessee continue their campaign:

- Rep. Jerry Sexton introduced a house joint resolution, HJR 150, to make the Bible the official book of Tennessee. This is the third time conservatives have tried this.

- In response to diversity training, HB 372/SB 193 would prevent the government from requiring employees to participate in trainings and seminars that go against their morals, ethics, values or religious beliefs.

- To allow people to congregate in churches during pandemics, HB 1137/SB 1197 would prohibit public officials and government agencies from placing restrictions on churches and other religious organizations during a state of emergency or other disasters.

- Senate Joint Resolution 55 proposes amending the Tennessee constitution to remove the ban on clergy serving in the state legislature. While still on the books, the provision is outdated. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1961 that religious tests for holding public office are unconstitutional. Currently, there are members of the state legislature that are also ministers. However SJR 55 does not address the state constitution's ban on atheists serving in public office.

- A newly proposed bill in Tennessee would make it even more difficult to protest in the state -- by making obstructing a highway a felony and giving immunity to drivers who unintentionally (Oops!) injure or kill those in the way.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 05, 2021, 10:04:09 AM
Interesting article on how evangelicals became anti-intellectual and why they are vulnerable to misinformation.

The Wasting of the Evangelical Mind (https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-wasting-of-the-evangelical-mind)

... A recent survey, conducted by the American Enterprise Institute, found that more than a quarter of white evangelicals believe that Donald Trump has been secretly battling “a group of child sex traffickers that include prominent Democrats and Hollywood elites,” a core tenet of the QAnon conspiracy theory. The data suggest a faith-based reality divide emerging within the Republican Party: nearly three-quarters of white evangelical Republicans believe widespread voter fraud took place in the 2020 election, compared with fifty-four per cent of non-evangelical Republicans; sixty per cent of white evangelical Republicans believe that Antifa, the antifascist group, was mostly responsible for the violence in the Capitol riot, compared with forty-two per cent of non-evangelical Republicans. Other surveys have found that white evangelicals are much more skeptical of the COVID-19 vaccine and are less likely than other Americans to get it, potentially jeopardizing the country’s recovery from the pandemic. ...

Evangelicalism in America, however, has come to be defined by its anti-intellectualism. The style of the most popular and influential pastors tend to correlate with shallowness: charisma trumps expertise; scientific authority is often viewed with suspicion. So it is of little surprise that American evangelicals have become vulnerable to demagoguery and misinformation. ...

“The scandal of the evangelical mind is there is not much of an evangelical mind.”
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 11, 2021, 12:51:34 PM
Christian woman tries to convert kids after mistakenly assuming they're gay in cringe-inducing video (https://www.rawstory.com/christian-karen-video/)

(Video in the link)

A Christian woman was caught on camera recently freaking out two young boys after she tried to convert them while they were eating a meal at a restaurant and mistakenly assuming they were gay.

A video posted on TikTok this week shows the two boys trying to eat at a restaurant before being accosted by a woman who started asking them questions such as whether they go to church or if they know how to get into Heaven.

"I don't know you... at all," one of the boys tells the woman.

"I know, I know," the woman replies. "I just see you guys and you guys aren't, like, girlfriends, are you?"

"No," the boy responds. "We're cousins."

"OK, all right." the woman says.

"But if it was, it's genuinely none of your business," the boy says.

"You're right, you're right," the woman says defensively. "But I just want to let you guys know because they don't teach you young kids about God anymore and it's just not the right way to live!"

The boy tells the woman that he's disturbed that she came "out of nowhere" to ask them if they were gay, and the woman replies that God instructed her to come talk to them.



This reminds me of years ago when I was on a date with a guy at Dollywood. We were sitting at a table sharing an ice cream, each with our own spoon, and this elderly woman walks up and says, "I just think the two of you are HORRIBLE! Just HORRIBLE! You're going to hell!" It was so out of the blue I started laughing but my date was very upset by it.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: drunkenshoe on March 11, 2021, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 11, 2021, 12:51:34 PM
This reminds me of years ago when I was on a date with a guy at Dollywood. We were sitting at a table sharing an ice cream, each with our own spoon, and this elderly woman walks up and says, "I just think the two of you are HORRIBLE! Just HORRIBLE! You're going to hell!" It was so out of the blue I started laughing but my date was very upset by it.

Good attitude. :lol:

But I still miantain that is pure jealousy. There is no other explanation of someone giving that sudden, angry reaction to a scene like that.Let's say, someone could feel/think that it is wrong, bad... whatever because of their belief...blah blah. But people bursting with anger like that...naaah, sorry that's something else, even if not the very thing. 
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Vulcan on March 15, 2021, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 12, 2021, 03:02:25 PM

Misunderstanding 1: Evangelicals are anti-LGBTQ

Misunderstanding 2: Evangelicals are anti-science

Misunderstanding 3: Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth.


The sad thing is, these are "understandings" not "misunderstandings."

They don't apply universally to every evangelical ever, but each are demonstrably true of many evangelicals.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: OrangeDon on April 08, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
Wow.  I don't even know where to start with a statement/post like this one...
"Evangelicals are anti-LGBTQ" -- please stop trying to sell that, because nobody's buying that.  I'm a 57yo man.  It wasn't even LEGAL for me to marry the adult man whom I deeply love until I was 50!  Why?  CHRISTIANITY and its centuries-long hatred for gays.  Period.  And there are still more than enough churches in the US alone who still espouse their hate, who still try to smack down marriage equality, who still ban gay weddings, who still denigrate and ostracize gays...  Give me a break.  I can't even imagine how you can say that without your mouth catching on fire...
"Evangelicals are anti-science" - really?  Ever heard of the debacle called Creationism?  A "discipline" (if you can call it that) that was created with the SOLE INTENT to try and prostitute science to prove the Bible is valid.  In all its time, Creationism has given mankind NOTHING - no new science, no new discoveries, no new technology, no new advancements, NOTHING.  After centuries of exiling or killing any scientist (and their families) that made observations about the natural world which happened to contradict the Bible, you try to say you're not anti-science?  Parents all across this country keep their kids out of regular schools just to keep them from learning real science!
"Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth."  1. Over 75% of the abortions in the US are obtained by Christians & Catholic women.  But Christians don't care about the "mess" in their own house, this is about pointing the finger of blame outward and crusading against other people. 2.  You scream about saving embryos because you claim they have a soul.  So, what about the millions upon millions of embryos that are cryogenically frozen right now for later use?  Not a peep from you there - all those "frozen souls" tucked away, frozen, many for years upon years.  WHY?  Because Christians utilize frozen embryos, too.  So, they have to protect their double standard!  3. By the way, you all demand that these unwanted pregnancies go to term, yet once that happens, none of you are to be found anywhere...  Tens of thousand of children all over the US without families, and where are all of you?  <crickets> Exactly what we expect.  Nothing from you there.  All hat and no cattle.
Honestly, this  is one of the most disingenuous, vacant posts I've read in a long time.  You pretend that there is no past; you pretend what's happening now isn't happening.  It's offensive.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Mike Cl on April 08, 2021, 09:13:36 AM
Quote from: OrangeDon on April 08, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
Wow.  I don't even know where to start with a statement/post like this one...
"Evangelicals are anti-LGBTQ" -- please stop trying to sell that, because nobody's buying that.  I'm a 57yo man.  It wasn't even LEGAL for me to marry the adult man whom I deeply love until I was 50!  Why?  CHRISTIANITY and its centuries-long hatred for gays.  Period.  And there are still more than enough churches in the US alone who still espouse their hate, who still try to smack down marriage equality, who still ban gay weddings, who still denigrate and ostracize gays...  Give me a break.  I can't even imagine how you can say that without your mouth catching on fire...
"Evangelicals are anti-science" - really?  Ever heard of the debacle called Creationism?  A "discipline" (if you can call it that) that was created with the SOLE INTENT to try and prostitute science to prove the Bible is valid.  In all its time, Creationism has given mankind NOTHING - no new science, no new discoveries, no new technology, no new advancements, NOTHING.  After centuries of exiling or killing any scientist (and their families) that made observations about the natural world which happened to contradict the Bible, you try to say you're not anti-science?  Parents all across this country keep their kids out of regular schools just to keep them from learning real science!
"Evangelicals are notoriously pro-life but have little regard for life after birth."  1. Over 75% of the abortions in the US are obtained by Christians & Catholic women.  But Christians don't care about the "mess" in their own house, this is about pointing the finger of blame outward and crusading against other people. 2.  You scream about saving embryos because you claim they have a soul.  So, what about the millions upon millions of embryos that are cryogenically frozen right now for later use?  Not a peep from you there - all those "frozen souls" tucked away, frozen, many for years upon years.  WHY?  Because Christians utilize frozen embryos, too.  So, they have to protect their double standard!  3. By the way, you all demand that these unwanted pregnancies go to term, yet once that happens, none of you are to be found anywhere...  Tens of thousand of children all over the US without families, and where are all of you?  <crickets> Exactly what we expect.  Nothing from you there.  All hat and no cattle.
Honestly, this  is one of the most disingenuous, vacant posts I've read in a long time.  You pretend that there is no past; you pretend what's happening now isn't happening.  It's offensive.
I find your avatar highly offensive--if it reflects any of your 'values', that means you don't have any.  I suspect all you have to say would be untruthful.  As for your post, do you think you are posting on a christian site???? And it is confusing.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: OrangeDon on April 08, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
"I find your avatar highly offensive--if it reflects any of your 'values', that means you don't have any."
That's certainly your choice.  It's a pic of the wax figure of Orange Don at Disney World.  And it's hilarious.
I am not aligned with the idiots who worship Orange Don, so, actually, that means I do have values.

"I suspect all you have to say would be untruthful."
Well, you suspect wrong.  You don't know me, and I only started posting here today.

"As for your post, do you think you are posting on a christian site????"
No, this is called ATHEIST FORUMS.  And I'm posting in an area called CHRISTIANITY with one byline being - discuss your issues with the Bible.
Hope that helps clarify!  Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Hydra009 on April 08, 2021, 10:19:11 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 08, 2021, 09:13:36 AM
I find your avatar highly offensive--if it reflects any of your 'values', that means you don't have any.  I suspect all you have to say would be untruthful.  As for your post, do you think you are posting on a christian site???? And it is confusin
It could have been clearer, but imo that post is highly critical of evangelical beliefs and the attempt to pass off these beliefs as less harmful and less overtly antiscience than they have historically been shown to be.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Mike Cl on April 08, 2021, 02:53:53 PM
Quote from: OrangeDon on April 08, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
"I find your avatar highly offensive--if it reflects any of your 'values', that means you don't have any."
That's certainly your choice.  It's a pic of the wax figure of Orange Don at Disney World.  And it's hilarious.
I am not aligned with the idiots who worship Orange Don, so, actually, that means I do have values.

"I suspect all you have to say would be untruthful."
Well, you suspect wrong.  You don't know me, and I only started posting here today.

"As for your post, do you think you are posting on a christian site????"
No, this is called ATHEIST FORUMS.  And I'm posting in an area called CHRISTIANITY with one byline being - discuss your issues with the Bible.
Hope that helps clarify!  Have a nice day.
I am happy to hear that you do not worship the orange monster.  I don't think anybody is pure evil, but the orange monster is as close as one can get.  Your first post I found confusing.  So, that's why I was wondering if you knew this was an atheist forum.  I'm glad you straightened me out. And you are new here for sure--why not take a little trip to the intro thread and tell us about yourself.  In any case, it seems you will fit right in with the rest of us.  So, even tho it is not the intro page, I say--welcome.
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: OrangeDon on April 09, 2021, 08:18:58 PM
Thanks for replying, Mike.  I was honestly concerned that maybe I got off on the wrong foot with you.  Glad now that's not the case.
I love the Orange Don handle because I abhor Trump.  He looks Orange from his fake tan, and I'm told he HATES being called Don. :)
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: Mike Cl on April 09, 2021, 09:35:07 PM
Quote from: OrangeDon on April 09, 2021, 08:18:58 PM
Thanks for replying, Mike.  I was honestly concerned that maybe I got off on the wrong foot with you.  Glad now that's not the case.
I love the Orange Don handle because I abhor Trump.  He looks Orange from his fake tan, and I'm told he HATES being called Don. :)
I, too, abhor the orange monster--except abhor is much, much too mild.  And it looks like you will fit right in here.  We can use some new blood. :)
Title: Re: Three things people get wrong about evangelicals
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 03, 2021, 03:29:20 PM
Interesting essay on growing up believing in the rapture and the psychological and socio-political implications of accepting everyone who doesn't share your religion will be destroyed.

Vanished From the Earth (https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/05/rapture-fear-evangelical-americans-church-miller.html)

... It’s hard to overstate how large the rapture loomed while I was growing up in the evangelical world. As a child, I was taught that I might live to see the end of the world. I learned how to see it coming, too: How the nation of Israel was “God’s timepiece” hitting marks on a prophetic timeline, how the machinations of the Catholic Church and the United Nations would soon come to a head and form a one-world government, how God would be driven out of America’s public square as people looked to other things for salvation.

This was OK, though, because it meant the end was near and that the faithful would have a reward better than eternal life after death. They’d skip death entirely, raptured before the Earth was allowed to rot in its filth for that era of tribulation before Christ’s return to rule all forever, with the faithful by his side. That part is important: The rapture isn’t just about terror. It’s seduction. Something to feel special about. ...