http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/1 ... 22590.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/10/united-arab-emirates-joplin_n_922590.html)
Now why is it our economy sucks so bad to the point where a foreign country is donating to us?
This isn't just about disasters. The mega corporations in America don't want to do a damned thing to lift the wages of the middle and poor classes. They don't want to improve education, or reduce crime.
They would claim that they DO donate. Yea, for PR and they get tax breaks for it. If they would skip the tax cuts, and skip the PR and skip the marketing, give their ceos a reasonable salary instead of an outrageous one. Maybe if they would invest directly instead of demanding tax cuts, maybe our economy would be better and maybe we could have that "less government" they always whine about wanting.
The so-called "first world" needs a peaceful revolution (new paradigm) against this irresponsible and predatory capitalism whose advent, in my opinion, came from the 80's. Communism is too utopian and unnatural and the "invisible hand" fills the pockets of a small and irresponsible portion that don't give a damn about the poors. Not to mention the corruption that is spreading like a weed (the bad one :))all over the world, without exception.
Quote from: "Mathias"The so-called "first world" needs a peaceful revolution (new paradigm) against this irresponsible and predatory capitalism whose advent, in my opinion, came from the 80's. Communism is too utopian and unnatural and the "invisible hand" fills the pockets of a small and irresponsible portion that don't give a damn about the poors. Not to mention the corruption that is spreading like a weed (the bad one :))all over the world, without exception.
The insidious thing is that when we talk about pay gap and health care we get accused of hating the open market when it is greed and exploitation and abuse of power we hate. They use the "commie" crap to get the right wing in the middle and poor classes to vote against their own self interest.
The "left" needs to do a better job politically exposing this lie.
TBH I would rather see the UAE donate than an individual top wage earner.
Get some of that money back.
I am surprised that the UAE gives the slightest shit about anything that happens over here.
QuoteI am surprised that the UAE gives the slightest shit about anything that happens over here.
Like the big companies, they only care about the PR and what comes back to them.
Quote from: "Nonsensei"TBH I would rather see the UAE donate than an individual top wage earner.
Get some of that money back.
I am surprised that the UAE gives the slightest shit about anything that happens over here.
Charity should not have to exist at all if top earners were paying livable wages instead of getting tax cuts. Our FEMA could take care of things like this. But no, the CEOs of EXXON and GE would end up on cat food.
Charity is not really charity in America in any case. The right wing wants to complain about robbery, but when they get a tax break for giving to charity, someone has to compensate for that, meaning the rest of us, so it is in reality a loan forced on the rest of us. Charity means not expecting anything back in return.
Quote from: "Brian37"Quote from: "Mathias"The so-called "first world" needs a peaceful revolution (new paradigm) against this irresponsible and predatory capitalism whose advent, in my opinion, came from the 80's. Communism is too utopian and unnatural and the "invisible hand" fills the pockets of a small and irresponsible portion that don't give a damn about the poors. Not to mention the corruption that is spreading like a weed (the bad one :))all over the world, without exception.
The insidious thing is that when we talk about pay gap and health care we get accused of hating the open market when it is greed and exploitation and abuse of power we hate. They use the "commie" crap to get the right wing in the middle and poor classes to vote against their own self interest.
The "left" needs to do a better job politically exposing this lie.
The problem with the left is that it's gone to the center and many fell in the wrong side and others are balancing. It is high time for the middle class conscious and politicized "kick the tent pole" as we say around here, and actively participate in decisions, or protest vehemently and very organized. A major problem in the consumer society is to "keep your eyes away from the navel." I'm full of cliches today ... : P
Sorry, my english is basic and the translators misses the point frequently.
Quote from: "Brian37"Charity should not have to exist at all if top earners were paying livable wages
And paying their fair share of taxes.
I must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
I want to live in a world where any woman I find attractive will cheerfully and willingly perform oral sex on me anytime I ask. But you don't see me complaining because they won't.
QuoteI must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
The question isn't "Is it their purpose" (because of course it is), the real question is "should it remain so?".
That's the mindset most people are discussing in, that it shouldn't remain so.
This is the very nature of capitalism. Companies are under tremendous pressure to post better earnings than the time before every single time. If earnings take the slightest dip, investors bail. Even if they remain constant the industry uses the term "stagnant" to describe no change. That is not a positive word. I don't know if it's so much corporate greed as it is the climate of investor expectations. Not that corporate greed isn't also a factor, but what do you do when profits must go up quarter after quarter, year after year? What do you do when your earnings are analyzed and compared to previous earnings for the slightest sign of weakness? You either post better earnings each and every time or you lose investors. The very nature of corporate America is basically a pyramid scheme which is unsustainable in the long term. Pure capitalism simply can't work in the long term. It ends with most of the money in the economy being horded by a very few until all companies collapse because there's no more left to take from the economy.
Quote from: "Johan"I must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
I want to live in a world where any woman I find attractive will cheerfully and willingly perform oral sex on me anytime I ask. But you don't see me complaining because they won't.
In order for your analogy to be relevant we would have to be living in a world where women simply never give blowjobs as a rule.
The purpose of a business is to turn a profit. The reason for a nation to foster an environment in which those businesses can flourish is because the nation expects to garner some benefit from doing so. When businesses become successful and retain all their wealth, letting as little as possible back into the society that gave rise to it and allowed it to become successful, society is damaged.
Whether private organizations want to admit it or not, they do owe the public something. The idea of the more successful among us looking out for the less successful among us isnt some sort of sin, its at the very heart of being a group of people that are supposedly on the same side.
The more a company pays its workers, the higher the workforce quality tends to be, in my experience.
The problem is not profit but how to get it so morally accepted (including how the lobbys are made). If anyone would act in the same way that a company probably never get out of jail!
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
The question isn't "Is it their purpose" (because of course it is), the real question is "should it remain so?".
That's the mindset most people are discussing in, that it shouldn't remain so.
So they question whether or not business should be profit driven? Fair enough. Tell you what then, you build your own mega corporation and then convert it to something that isn't profit driven and let me know how it works out for you.
Quote from: "Nonsensei"Quote from: "Johan"I must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
I want to live in a world where any woman I find attractive will cheerfully and willingly perform oral sex on me anytime I ask. But you don't see me complaining because they won't.
In order for your analogy to be relevant we would have to be living in a world where women simply never give blowjobs as a rule.
Well I know a few guys who would argue that we already live in just such a world.
Quote from: "Johan"I must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
I want to live in a world where any woman I find attractive will cheerfully and willingly perform oral sex on me anytime I ask. But you don't see me complaining because they won't.
So just because they have a goal doesn't mean they are the only class in this country. I mean seriously thanks for the update as if we didn't know that their goal is making a profit? So should that mean the rest of society should just take it and be their minions and mere tools? "Fuck you I got mine", is that what you are advocating?
This isn't about owing or complaining, this is about an economic ecology. You shit in the toilet long enough it gets clogged for everyone.
Not to mention that they often prefer to throw money away than losing a just cause, as are the cases of poisoning made ??by Shell in various places of the world or the worst case I know, the chemical leak in Bhopal, India, that killed about 2.5 thousand people and injured more than 100,000!
The Union Carbide abandoned the city indemnified !
What would happen to a citizen who killed 2500 people?
wouldn't raising the overall minimum wages for the American people ALSO raise profit for companies indirectly?
As a former minimum wage earner, it was my experience (twice) that prices for necessities like food and clothing went up enough to cancel out my raise within a couple of weeks. You know, things a lot of minimum wage earners are involved in the production of, and which minimum wage earners spend a higher percentage of their income on. How do you think companies pay for across-the-board wage increases?
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI must be some kind of corporate shill or something because you've lost me completely on their one. The mega corporations don't do anything to lift the wages off the middle class? Of course they don't. Since when was that part of their charter? Their purpose is to make a profit. Period.
The question isn't "Is it their purpose" (because of course it is), the real question is "should it remain so?".
That's the mindset most people are discussing in, that it shouldn't remain so.
So they question whether or not business should be profit driven? Fair enough. Tell you what then, you build your own mega corporation and then convert it to something that isn't profit driven and let me know how it works out for you.
This sounds like the same kind of defeatist "well you can't change anything from how it is right now" attitude I've seen you using before. Especially the part where you silently changed it from "a corporation that isn't driven by profit" when we originally talking about a company that "isn't driven entirely by profit".
The second problem is of course, whether having megacorps is a good idea at all. After all, they are more or less the death of capitalism, which is built around the idea that anyone can get in the market and compete, which isn't the case.
Yep! More money at the bottom means more money turning the economic engine.
Kimmie, who has resumed working on her Economics degree.
Quote from: "SvZurich"Yep! More money at the bottom means more money turning the economic engine.
Kimmie, who has resumed working on her Economics degree.
Suzie Orman is no slouch. Warren Buffet says his secretary is getting screwed. And billionaire Nick Hanour says more money in our hands(middle class and working poor) is what drives demand) meaning a business wont hire one more person they have to unless demand goes up. He says, and rightfully so, that the middle class and working poor the "99%" make up the bulk of demand.
Yep, and instead our policies concentrate money at the top where it is sat upon and not used. Even caps the amount of Social Security the wealthy pay.
Quote from: "Brian37"So just because they have a goal doesn't mean they are the only class in this country. I mean seriously thanks for the update as if we didn't know that their goal is making a profit?
Well apparently you didn't know. Because I can see no other logical reason why you would've said what you did unless you really didn't understand that business' are supposed to be profit driven. That's kind of how free enterprise works. If you want to large corporations to be more charitable and to pay their minions better, then the way you do that is by only buying from companies that are charitable and pay well. The way you don't do it is by day dreaming about what a great world it would be if large corporations were nicer and made it easier for you to get ahead.
QuoteSo should that mean the rest of society should just take it and be their minions and mere tools?
Well yes and no. Society has the choice to do that if they so desire. And indeed, there are many who choose that option and seem quite happy with their choice. But if you don't want to go down that road, you also have the choice of doing something else. Design a better mouse trap, learn to manufacture it for a profit and market it effectively and then hire minions of your own and treat them as you see fit. Sure seems to make a lot more sense to me than complaining that its hard and whining that it would be easier if someone else made it easier for you. No one made it easier for them when they were starting out. So what makes you so special?
I guess it just comes down to the fact that I learned early on that I've always gotten further by finding a way to play within the existing rules of the game and/or find a way to use those existing rules to my own advantage than I ever got by complaining that the rules weren't fair and hoping the powers that be would change the rules so as to make it easier for me while offering no real advantage to them.
QuoteThis isn't about owing or complaining, this is about an economic ecology. You shit in the toilet long enough it gets clogged for everyone.
It sounds like you need to bone up on plumbing and septic systems.
QuoteI guess it just comes down to the fact that I learned early on that I've always gotten further by finding a way to play within the existing rules of the game and/or find a way to use those existing rules to my own advantage than I ever got by complaining that the rules weren't fair and hoping the powers that be would change the rules so as to make it easier for me while offering no real advantage to them.
Kind of hard to play the game when someone else has all the cards and refuses to deal them.
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"QuoteI guess it just comes down to the fact that I learned early on that I've always gotten further by finding a way to play within the existing rules of the game and/or find a way to use those existing rules to my own advantage than I ever got by complaining that the rules weren't fair and hoping the powers that be would change the rules so as to make it easier for me while offering no real advantage to them.
Kind of hard to play the game when someone else has all the cards and refuses to deal them.
Wah!!!!! The big bad corporations won't give me any cards. Wah!!!!! I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to find lots of successful companies that weren't handed any cards from anyone and still found a way to get started and become successful. No one gave them handouts. Why should anyone give one to you?
No one said the rules were fair. The rules were never fair and they never will be. Complaining does nothing. Jump in and find a way to make it work or put on a Hawaiian shirt and go live under a picnic table.
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"QuoteI guess it just comes down to the fact that I learned early on that I've always gotten further by finding a way to play within the existing rules of the game and/or find a way to use those existing rules to my own advantage than I ever got by complaining that the rules weren't fair and hoping the powers that be would change the rules so as to make it easier for me while offering no real advantage to them.
Kind of hard to play the game when someone else has all the cards and refuses to deal them.
Wah!!!!! The big bad corporations won't give me any cards. Wah!!!!! I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to find lots of successful companies that weren't handed any cards from anyone and still found a way to get started and become successful. No one gave them handouts. Why should anyone give one to you?
No one said the rules were fair. The rules were never fair and they never will be. Complaining does nothing. Jump in and find a way to make it work or put on a Hawaiian shirt and go live under a picnic table.
Did I say anything about handouts? No, I didn't.
People wouldn't need "handouts" if they were paid a decent enough wage to live with dignity. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur, does that mean they deserve to be exploited? Fuck no!
I'd love to buy only from companies that do something for society. But even though I make a good wage, I can't afford to. I'm already having to cut back on groceries because it's one of the few things I spend more than barebones minimum on.
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"Did I say anything about handouts? No, I didn't.
People wouldn't need "handouts" if they were paid a decent enough wage to live with dignity. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur, does that mean they deserve to be exploited? Fuck no!
Jobs are worth what they're worth. Supply and demand and greed are ultimately what sets prices on the retail side. Sell for the highest price the market will allow. Supply and demand and greed are also what set the price on the wage side. Pay your labor the lowest price possible to maintain productivity and an acceptable employee turnover rate.
This is how it has always been. And yes, paying more in wages then the lowest rate the job pool will allow is the same as giving a handout. If you feel you're being paid a wage that exploits you, then you have two fixes. One is near term, the other is long term. The near term fix is to move. Get out of the business (whatever business that is) and find another. Why do you think I don't fly airplanes for a living anymore? The pay sucked and the working conditions sucked. So I moved on and found something else.
And the long term fix? The only part of the job pool supply and demand equation we have any control over is supply. Keep it in your pants and encourage everyone you know to do the same and eventually, demand will outgrow supply in more industries and wages will therefore go up.
That's how its always been. Its how it always will be. You can go live in a tent on the street with a bunch of hippies and potheads as some sort of facacta protest if it makes you feel better. But you're not going to change what motivates decisions of large corporations.
If you're more rational and proactive than the potheads and hippies you might even be able to persuade our government to change some laws which govern what large corporations do. I doubt anyone would be able to pull this off, but its at least possible in theory. But even if you did get the laws changed so as to require corporations to pay more and/or 'be interested in improving education and reducing crime' as Brian seems to thing they should in the OP, you still wouldn't be able to make them
want to do those things. They would do it because the law says so. But you're not going to change their culture. And since we now live in a world market, I would suspect the net effect of such laws would simply be for more and more of those corporations to board up the windows and move their operations to other countries where the laws are more to their liking. Choose your actions carefully would be takeaway from that I suppose.
Which brings me back to what I said earlier. The rules of the game do indeed change a bit over time. But the rules were never fair and they never will be and with extremely rare exceptions, neither you nor I will ever change them. Learn accept the cards you've been dealt in life and find way to work those cards so as to make yourself sufficiently happy.
QuoteWhy do you think I don't fly airplanes for a living anymore? The pay sucked and the working conditions sucked.
This surprised me. Dutch airline pilots earn huge amounts of money because they have a very demanding job.
Also, this is how it is, but it's fairly new (megacorps haven't been around that long) and it's going away soon. Technology will obsolete many more jobs the coming few decades. It
has to change, or we'll end up with 50% of the population being unemployed, which will inevitably generate a huge mess.
The whole "you could always flip burgers" argument against unemployment has already died now that even burger-flipping joints have an overflow of people and don't need any more. It's a matter of time before the burger-flipper will also be replaced by a machine, like the assembly line worker, and the box-packer, and many other people. It's easy to say "there'll always be jobs" but reality says otherwise. There doesn't appear to be a growing need for employees. There's mostly a growing market in obsoleting jobs, but that's not sustainable.
It's interesting to see where it goes, but I don't buy "it'll never change". I obsolete far too many people in my line of work to believe that.
Its true that our current economic model is not compatible with the march of advancing technology. After all, technology is created by man so that man no longer has to personally do things or do them the hard way. Taken to its logical and ultimate conclusion technology will make money unnecessary as our needs will be met by a self sustaining infrastructure that fulfills all our needs and wants.
Thats why every small step we take toward that far-off goal sees the loss of an old vocation without necessarily replacing it with a new one.
I don't give a shit if one flips burgers. I really do get tired of "low pay means no skill". Bullshit.
And as far as everything replacing humans, that will never happen. First off you have more mom and pop shops than you do mega corps with the money to make machines. Secondly humans, especially when dining out have a variety of tastes and are not always going to want to get their food from a machine. Sit down places with wait staff will always be in demand.
Plus whatever machines replace humans still have to be maintained. Some would argue machines will police the machines, but you still need to police those machines too.
I think whatever technology we come up with you will still have a need for the human touch in that process.
So food service and maintenance will be the only professions left. Thats not enough to either sustain or justify any sort of economic model or form of currency.
Yeah. There will always be some jobs. But there won't be enough. When you only have a few million jobs for a few billion people, the current economic model will completely collapse in on itself.
I agree, Plu. The trend toward increasing automation will continue. LOTS of jobs that are now being done by people will be done by machines in the next ten years, including jobs we once thought robots would never be able to do. I manage a data entry department, it would already be obsolete if the State required providers to submit electronically, but even if they never do, Optical Character Reading technology will advance enough that you won't need human verifiers anymore. Migrant workers watch out, fruit-picking robots are on the way. I don't know how long Moore's Law will hold at the current doubling of power every 12 months, but if it lasts to 2023, a computer chip's capacity per $1000 will be equal to the human brain. Even if it stops there, it would take decades to figure out how to take advantage of that much processing power. It's hard to imagine a mundane job done by humans now that can't be done by a robot with that much processing power. If it doesn't stop there, that much capacity will cost a penny by 2036.
The optimist in me says humans are creative enough to find ways to use that capacity to increase their own economic power, that we can use that kind of power to build a world free from want of basic necessities. The pessimist in me says: be afraid.
The pessimist in you is actually the realist. Power is concentrated in a few. Once those few cease to see what the rest of us can do for them they will also cease to see the reason for us being around.
It will be unbelievably bad for a long, long time because people refuse to give a fuck about each other. That trait is what will kill us. Not our fucking pollution or overpopulation or any other mundane symptom. People refusing to see other people as having any inherent worth is what will shuffle us into the dustbin of history.
I wanted to mention that the turn this thread has taken has given me an idea on a story to write. Not sure how well it will turn out but the plot idea is fairly unique I think. These forums do that for me from time to time which is one of the many reasons I've been around so long.
Quote from: "Johan"Jobs are worth what they're worth.
Supply and demand and greed are ultimately what sets prices on the retail side. Sell for the highest price the market will allow. Supply and demand and greed are also what set the price on the wage side. Pay your labor the lowest price possible to maintain productivity and an acceptable employee turnover rate.
Says who? To me seems a fallacy of appeal to authority.
The market isn't that simple and I'm sure that a economist will tell you. The stipulation of the price and value of goods are very important and are not guaranteed simply by supply. There are advertising, sales strategies, etc..
QuoteThis is how it has always been. And yes, paying more in wages then the lowest rate the job pool will allow is the same as giving a handout. If you feel you're being paid a wage that exploits you, then you have two fixes. One is near term, the other is long term. The near term fix is to move. Get out of the business (whatever business that is) and find another. Why do you think I don't fly airplanes for a living anymore? The pay sucked and the working conditions sucked. So I moved on and found something else.
If you think there are no differences between the market and the economy now and 100 years ago, I advise you to read a bit more about it. I did not know it was so easy for the U.S. working population out of a business to another. Why Bush Jr. and Obama has not said yet this brilliant idea?
QuoteAnd the long term fix? The only part of the job pool supply and demand equation we have any control over is supply. Keep it in your pants and encourage everyone you know to do the same and eventually, demand will outgrow supply in more industries and wages will therefore go up.
And the winner was Max Weber, with its Protestant ethic ... misunderstood!!
QuoteBut you're not going to change what motivates decisions of large corporations.
Good thing the founding fathers didn't think this way, or the U.S. would be the "fourth world"
QuoteIf you're more rational and proactive than the potheads and hippies you might even be able to persuade our government to change some laws which govern what large corporations do.
I could swear that many of the hippies of the 70s were the yuppies of the 80s, but I could be wrong ...
QuoteI doubt anyone would be able to pull this off, but its at least possible in theory. But even if you did get the laws changed so as to require corporations to pay more and/or 'be interested in improving education and reducing crime' as Brian seems to thing they should in the OP, you still wouldn't be able to make them want to do those things. They would do it because the law says so. But you're not going to change their culture. And since we now live in a world market, I would suspect the net effect of such laws would simply be for more and more of those corporations to board up the windows and move their operations to other countries where the laws are more to their liking. Choose your actions carefully would be takeaway from that I suppose.
I suppose the people in countries that have less access to culture and information, where there who think the laws of the market as you, the megacorporations are even more dishonest and immoral. Because greed is not something that can be considered good, unless there is a very active moral filter. This filter is manufactured by the company itself. So when we see a president be elected fraudulently, we see that it is not so simple.
QuoteWhich brings me back to what I said earlier. The rules of the game do indeed change a bit over time. But the rules were never fair and they never will be and with extremely rare exceptions, neither you nor I will ever change them. Learn accept the cards you've been dealt in life and find way to work those cards so as to make yourself sufficiently happy.
To me this is pure fundamentalism!
Learn to understand the situation and use their citizenship with civility. There are priests who are pedophiles and should not do anything, since the church does not punishes them for centuries. It has always been so and always will be!
Hello!!
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteWhy do you think I don't fly airplanes for a living anymore? The pay sucked and the working conditions sucked.
This surprised me. Dutch airline pilots earn huge amounts of money because they have a very demanding job.
Well you'll note that I didn't say its why I don't fly airliners for a living. I never flew for the airlines and never wanted to. But yeah even still the story wouldn't have been much different either way. The days of airline pilots making six figure incomes for the bulk of their careers and then enjoying six figure retirement incomes are over in this country. You can still make a living at the airlines. But you need to be able to survive on poverty wages for the first ten years or so and lots of guys will probably never see six fighters at any point in their career. The point is it ain't like it used to be.
But what I was getting at its that I was min the business and recognized that there were always far more qualified applicants than available jobs. And it was clear to me that this had a lot to do with way most jobs paid so little and treated employees with so little respect. It was also clear to me that there was nothing I could do to change it so I got of of the business.
QuoteAlso, this is how it is, but it's fairly new (megacorps haven't been around that long) and it's going away soon. Technology will obsolete many more jobs the coming few decades. It has to change, or we'll end up with 50% of the population being unemployed, which will inevitably generate a huge mess.
Well I agree with you on this. But I don't think that's really what the op was thinking about when he started the thread.
QuoteIt's interesting to see where it goes, but I don't buy "it'll never change". I obsolete far too many people in my line of work to believe that.
What I meant by that comment was that the 'rules of the game' have almost never favored the little guy and I think is unlikely that they ever will. But lots of people have made themselves successful despite that ave I don't think many of them did it by complaining that the rules aren't fair and changes need to be made so is easier for me to get ahead.
Quote from: "Mathias"The so-called "first world" needs a peaceful revolution (new paradigm) against this irresponsible and predatory capitalism whose advent, in my opinion, came from the 80's. Communism is too utopian and unnatural and the "invisible hand" fills the pockets of a small and irresponsible portion that don't give a damn about the poors. Not to mention the corruption that is spreading like a weed (the bad one :))all over the world, without exception.
Write "Corporatism is not Capitalism" 1000 times.
Also, we've had predatory corporatism since long before the 1980s.
I'd say mathias has it about right
Capitalism if not properly regulated will become corporatism in time. Corporate money corrupts the regulators then the whole system collapses. This has already happened. What we need is a new deal!
Quote from: "Nonsensei"So food service and maintenance will be the only professions left. Thats not enough to either sustain or justify any sort of economic model or form of currency.
Still does not change that ANY job as a human you do, takes skill. Machines can replace lots of things but not humans or the skill they use every day no matter their class.
Quote from: "Rejak"I'd say mathias has it about right
Capitalism if not properly regulated will become corporatism in time. Corporate money corrupts the regulators then the whole system collapses. This has already happened. What we need is a new deal!
Regulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Rejak"I'd say mathias has it about right
Capitalism if not properly regulated will become corporatism in time. Corporate money corrupts the regulators then the whole system collapses. This has already happened. What we need is a new deal!
Regulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
Bullshit! That is like saying speed limits cause speeding.
No it is greed and narcissism, nothing else.
QuoteRegulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
Actually the situation we're in right now is because of the eviceration of regulations implemented by the "new deal" in the '70s,80 90s and oughts to prevent another crash like the one in 1929 and sho nuff what happened in 2008
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
Quote from: "Brian37"Quote from: "Nonsensei"So food service and maintenance will be the only professions left. Thats not enough to either sustain or justify any sort of economic model or form of currency.
Still does not change that ANY job as a human you do, takes skill. Machines can replace lots of things but not humans or the skill they use every day no matter their class.
Tell that to the people who lost their job to a machine. Not everything a human does is something only a human can do. A lot of the time, it's just because biological machines are cheap and technology isn't advanced enough yet.
QuoteRegulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
I sincerely hope you don't think that unregulated capitalism would be a better idea.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Write "Corporatism is not Capitalism" 1000 times.
Write "Dogmas are for believers". As if corporatism were something out of the capitalism, I don't even saying it's the same and only that.
QuoteAlso, we've had predatory corporatism since long before the 1980s.
Wow, gunpowder was discovered!!
is easy to create sentences and say nothing about it. On the bottom line, "nada" !!!
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Rejak"I'd say mathias has it about right
Capitalism if not properly regulated will become corporatism in time. Corporate money corrupts the regulators then the whole system collapses. This has already happened. What we need is a new deal!
Regulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
And the advent of all crash came after the government stops (or at least try to) regulate the market. What is really the difference between corporatism and lobby??
Quote from: "Rejak"QuoteRegulation is exactly what turns capitalism into corporatism, such as what happened during the New Deal.
Actually the situation we're in right now is because of the eviceration of regulations implemented by the "new deal" in the '70s,80 90s and oughts to prevent another crash like the one in 1929 and sho nuff what happened in 2008
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
A paradigm, not a new deal ...
Quote from: "Plu"Tell that to the people who lost their job to a machine. Not everything a human does is something only a human can do. A lot of the time, it's just because biological machines are cheap and technology isn't advanced enough yet.
And this is one of the major problems that capitalism is facing, along with the enormous power of speculative capital, which is a rust in the gears of the economy.
QuoteI sincerely hope you don't think that unregulated capitalism would be a better idea.
Me too...
Wow. Someone sure got a button pushed by what I wrote.
Quote from: "Mathias"Quote from: "Johan"Jobs are worth what they're worth.
Supply and demand and greed are ultimately what sets prices on the retail side. Sell for the highest price the market will allow. Supply and demand and greed are also what set the price on the wage side. Pay your labor the lowest price possible to maintain productivity and an acceptable employee turnover rate.
Says who? To me seems a fallacy of appeal to authority.
The market isn't that simple and I'm sure that a economist will tell you. The stipulation of the price and value of goods are very important and are not guaranteed simply by supply. There are advertising, sales strategies, etc..
Obviously its not as simple as I stated. I wasn't giving an economics lesson. I was simply trying to point out that one cannot realistically expect to be paid $100k/yr for a given job if there are plenty of other schmucks on the street who can perform the job just as well as you and would jump at the chance to do it for $50k/yr. This is exactly what I ran into in aviation. I consider it to be an effect of excess supply on the employee side and/or a shortage of supply on the employer side. If I'm labeling that wrong, then I apologize.
QuoteQuoteThis is how it has always been. And yes, paying more in wages then the lowest rate the job pool will allow is the same as giving a handout. If you feel you're being paid a wage that exploits you, then you have two fixes. One is near term, the other is long term. The near term fix is to move. Get out of the business (whatever business that is) and find another. Why do you think I don't fly airplanes for a living anymore? The pay sucked and the working conditions sucked. So I moved on and found something else.
If you think there are no differences between the market and the economy now and 100 years ago, I advise you to read a bit more about it. I did not know it was so easy for the U.S. working population out of a business to another. Why Bush Jr. and Obama has not said yet this brilliant idea?
I think you're reading a bit too much into what I wrote. I never said there are no differences nor would I.
QuoteQuoteAnd the long term fix? The only part of the job pool supply and demand equation we have any control over is supply. Keep it in your pants and encourage everyone you know to do the same and eventually, demand will outgrow supply in more industries and wages will therefore go up.
And the winner was Max Weber, with its Protestant ethic ... misunderstood!!
??????
QuoteQuoteBut you're not going to change what motivates decisions of large corporations.
Good thing the founding fathers didn't think this way, or the U.S. would be the "fourth world"
The founding fathers didn't have to think that way. They staged a war against their government and won and were then able to form a government of their own choosing. So I'd say the rules were bit different in their case. Unless of course you're suggesting that we do as the founding fathers did and change the rules ourselves by overthrowing the current government. In which case I'll say you go ahead and try, I'll watch.
Quote from: "Johan"Obviously its not as simple as I stated. I wasn't giving an economics lesson. I was simply trying to point out that one cannot realistically expect to be paid $100k/yr for a given job if there are plenty of other schmucks on the street who can perform the job just as well as you and would jump at the chance to do it for $50k/yr. This is exactly what I ran into in aviation. I consider it to be an effect of excess supply on the employee side and/or a shortage of supply on the employer side. If I'm labeling that wrong, then I apologize.
Marx called this industrial reserve army and rightly so. In this issue, for a variety of professions, so that "works" and you're right. And I apologize if demonstrated some animosity because I don't know you apologized.
QuoteI think you're reading a bit too much into what I wrote. I never said there are no differences nor would I.
From what you wrote, the impression is that there is nothing to do, except to divest.
Quote from: "Mathias"And the winner was Max Weber, with its Protestant ethic ... misunderstood!!
Quote from: "Johan"??????
I refer to a book by Max Weber on capitalism and the Protestant ethic, where he refers to a Protestant dogma of saving money, but this is contrary to the heating of the economy, or not?
QuoteBut you're not going to change what motivates decisions of large corporations.
QuoteThe founding fathers didn't have to think that way. They staged a war against their government and won and were then able to form a government of their own choosing. So I'd say the rules were bit different in their case. Unless of course you're suggesting that we do as the founding fathers did and change the rules ourselves by overthrowing the current government. In which case I'll say you go ahead and try, I'll watch.
"The founding fathers didn't have to think that way". Nor us about you think nowadays, but I was talking about personality, the use of reason for society, the search for something more selfless and supportive and fair, that the founding fathers demonstrated through deeds and not be watching the caravan pass ..