I've heard that it's like a permanent deep sleep with no dreams. If that's true, then that's scary.
Maybe it's sort of like not being born yet (pre-life)?
Really hope there's something after this.
As much as I'd like the idea of a blissful afterlife, I know that reality does not conform to our preferences for how it should be. All signs point to this likely being our only life. Considering most animals die by being eaten alive, many while they're still babies, and how cruel nature is in general, I really don't think there is any grand plan for all of this.
We have a short period of time to exist before returning to the same state we were in before we were conceived. So best make the most of it while you can.
QuoteI've heard that it's like a permanent deep sleep with no dreams. If that's true, then that's scary.
Maybe it's sort of like not being born yet (pre-life)?
What is the difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf4L31TBr7w
Easy to find out.
We experience the little death every time we sleep. But it isn't peaceful. I have no reason to expect a dreamless sleep. More likely a sleepless dream.
Closest I've experienced death is when I was under full anesthesia as a kid when I broke my right leg. Time doesn't pass, it jumps to when you regain consciousness again. Now imagine time jumping all the way to the end of existence; death is like that.
I consider this a worst case scenario.
https://youtu.be/h6fcK_fRYaI
Quote from: twozerozeroonefive on May 15, 2020, 02:51:38 AM
I've heard that it's like a permanent deep sleep with no dreams. If that's true, then that's scary.
Maybe it's sort of like not being born yet (pre-life)?
Really hope there's something after this.
Since I have not died yet (I don't think I have), how can I know??
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 15, 2020, 09:49:09 AM
Since I have not died yet (I don't think I have), how can I know??
What makes you think that'll help?
Quote from: Cassia on May 15, 2020, 11:08:57 AM
What makes you think that'll help?
:)) Well, nothing suggests that anything happens after death. Nobody has come back from death and told us yet. So, without dying myself, I have nothing to go on. But I'm not rushing to find out--I'll get there soon enough.
I was having a philosophical talk with my boyfriend last night, because I thought of this the other night when getting ready for bed, turning off the lights, and thinking how different things look when the lights are off, and everything is plunged into darkness.
Be it either what you see in the daytime, or looking at the stars in the sky, or the street light outside giving light that way though electricity.
Now strip all that way, and what do you have left? Nothing, just an endless void. Take out all the energy in the universe, from stars and protons to electrons and even the anti matter that causes these other forces to react, and whats left is just nothing but blackness.
Everything we know in the universe is energy, something giving off energy. Even edgy goth kids need energy to play their depressing music or have the energy to talk to hot topic.
Without energy, there is nothing, just a black endless void. We just forget about that fact and carry on happy to be in a time in the universe when there is energy to give us light and life.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 15, 2020, 11:31:51 AM
:)) Well, nothing suggests that anything happens after death. Nobody has come back from death and told us yet. So, without dying myself, I have nothing to go on. But I'm not rushing to find out--I'll get there soon enough.
If you have never had escargot, how can you know what it is like? You can't ask a dead person what escargot is like, but you can ask a living person who has had escargot. Escargot with champaignon (mushrooms) is pretty good, just saying. Better than just in garlic butter.
Quote from: Munch on May 15, 2020, 12:47:41 PM
I was having a philosophical talk with my boyfriend last night, because I thought of this the other night when getting ready for bed, turning off the lights, and thinking how different things look when the lights are off, and everything is plunged into darkness.
Be it either what you see in the daytime, or looking at the stars in the sky, or the street light outside giving light that way though electricity.
Now strip all that way, and what do you have left? Nothing, just an endless void. Take out all the energy in the universe, from stars and protons to electrons and even the anti matter that causes these other forces to react, and whats left is just nothing but blackness.
Everything we know in the universe is energy, something giving off energy. Even edgy goth kids need energy to play their depressing music or have the energy to talk to hot topic.
Without energy, there is nothing, just a black endless void. We just forget about that fact and carry on happy to be in a time in the universe when there is energy to give us light and life.
Avoid circular logic and confirmation bias. Start with psychology. When you were little, you didn't have words like matter and energy. You were simply alive. As a baby you had no words at all, but you had needs to be met and mother to meet them. Suppose you are as you are now, but have no "science", you are primitive/ancient. You can't make these kinds of arguments at all to yourself or others. For people, "qualia" are unknown, we only know our ship-in-the-bottle models of reality, sometimes pragmatic (don't hit toe). Philosophy can't even determine if qualia exist or if humans can even determine what they are if they do. Philosophy never gets to a final conclusion on anything, it is about tentative answers, not about final answers (in the sense of science facts).
These models become increasingly complex as we age. Some models are relatively objective (shared by your community) aka cultural. Must take out beating heart of victim or Sun won't come up tomorrow! Other models are shared but are developed by experts (acupuncturists). You go to experts for certain information (Covid masks) or certain procedures (cancer treatment) ... that are more developed in modern society. These are developed by scientific method, so are more objective, aren't just confirmation bias (like political ideology). Then based on our modern culture, you interpret back to what it is like when the lights are off.
Well, I dream a lot. Last night I was a young woman in the USAF who was getting some cudos for a job well done. I can't explain that, but one can always dismiss it. Like Tanzania/Burundi just did with WHO. Explanations made by posters here, are of course modern and European. Naturally think we are right (and think we are superior to Aztecs). Part of Rudyard Kipling's White Man's Burden. We are our great grandparents descendants. Science is White, just as acupuncture is Chinese. Check your privilege.
I left Vietnam in a medically induced coma. They woke me up in the PI to see if it was worth sending me back to the States. Took a C130 to California where I woke up two weeks after we landed. All this according to my records. I was effectively dead for most of this period. Didn't bother me much.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 15, 2020, 03:44:35 PM
I left Vietnam in a medically induced coma. They woke me up in the PI to see if it was worth sending me back to the States. Took a C130 to California where I woke up two weeks after we landed. All this according to my records. I was effectively dead for most of this period. Didn't bother me much.
Dreamless sleep appears necessary for health. This was a healing trance. Whenever I was put under for an operation, it was like that for me too. Just a shorter period. But that still isn't total lack of brain activity. The nervous system is in deep maintenance mode.
Think of how it was like for you for the last 13.8 billion years. You had no worries, no pain, and no one was pissing you off or taking your stuff. The last 50 years (or however long you have been alive) is an anomaly. You are no more than a cosmic fart. Your default state was the last 13.8 billion years. When your life ends you will return to the default state for another 13.8 or the end of the universe, whatever is longer. And then the default state will be another cosmic fart, replaced by an even greater nothing.
Quote from: SGOS on May 15, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
Think of how it was like for you for the last 13.8 billion years. You had no worries, no pain, and no one was pissing you off or taking your stuff. The last 50 years (or however long you have been alive) is an anomaly. You are no more than a cosmic fart. Your default state was the last 13.8 billion years. When your life ends you will return to the default state for another 13.8 or the end of the universe, whatever is longer. And then the default state will be another cosmic fart, replaced by an even greater nothing.
You get what you pay for. You didn't pay for your birth, your parents did.
Quote from: SGOS on May 15, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
Think of how it was like for you for the last 13.8 billion years. You had no worries, no pain, and no one was pissing you off or taking your stuff. The last 50 years (or however long you have been alive) is an anomaly. You are no more than a cosmic fart. Your default state was the last 13.8 billion years. When your life ends you will return to the default state for another 13.8 or the end of the universe, whatever is longer. And then the default state will be another cosmic fart, replaced by an even greater nothing.
in context, we still live longer then most other creatures on this sphere we call a home, so if we consider time scale an issue they have even less of a mark.
Quote from: Munch on May 15, 2020, 10:01:59 PM
in context, we still live longer then most other creatures on this sphere we call a home, so if we consider time scale an issue they have even less of a mark.
Tell that to the dominant life form, viruses.
Quote from: SGOS on May 15, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
Think of how it was like for you for the last 13.8 billion years. You had no worries, no pain, and no one was pissing you off or taking your stuff. The last 50 years (or however long you have been alive) is an anomaly. You are no more than a cosmic fart. Your default state was the last 13.8 billion years. When your life ends you will return to the default state for another 13.8 or the end of the universe, whatever is longer. And then the default state will be another cosmic fart, replaced by an even greater nothing.
The estimated time for heat death of the universe to occur is in 10^100 years, which is a very freaking long time.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 16, 2020, 01:08:58 AM
The estimated time for heat death of the universe to occur is in 10^100 years, which is a very freaking long time.
And the last sound anyone will hear is "Congratulations! You are eligible for a Master Card or Visa!"
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 16, 2020, 01:08:58 AM
The estimated time for heat death of the universe to occur is in 10^100 years, which is a very freaking long time.
Definitely Hell for the impatient ;-)
The last sound I'll probably hear is my tinnitis.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 16, 2020, 12:21:28 PM
The last sound I'll probably hear is my tinnitis.
Yeah, I probably have a low grade hum too. Can you hum a few bars for us? ;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 16, 2020, 12:21:28 PM
The last sound I'll probably hear is my tinnitis.
Yeah, I hear you--literally. My wife asks me questions like, 'Don't you hear those crickets?' I reply that I do, but I hear them ALL the time. That was a gift from my wonderful Uncle Sam.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 16, 2020, 01:13:02 PM
Yeah, I hear you--literally. My wife asks me questions like, 'Don't you hear those crickets?' I reply that I do, but I hear them ALL the time. That was a gift from my wonderful Uncle Sam.
So you weren't a drummer in a rock band directly next to the giant speakers?
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2020, 01:17:40 PM
So you weren't a drummer in a rock band directly next to the giant speakers?
Yeah, I was in Uncle Sam's Band--well, sort of, for I got the condition in a 'rock and roll' fashion. The LT, took a handful of us agents to the field so we could (we had to) record fire with our pistols (if you want to call them that--stub-nosed 38's). So, 50 rounds of rock and roll and 50 for record fire. Except the firing range was an old one without vents at each end and he did not bring ear plugs--used cigarette butts, instead. Couldn't hear the phone on my desk for a week--but now I get to hear it all the time.
I shot expert with a Chief's Special.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 17, 2020, 12:25:48 PM
I shot expert with a Chief's Special.
I've shot expert with rifles (starting with the M-14) but never with pistols.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2020, 01:18:21 PM
I've shot expert with rifles (starting with the M-14) but never with pistols.
When I was with the Deserter Apprehension Program we had to fly armed once in a while. So we had to qualify with that POS revolver. I had grown up with a Marine mentor so I knew the tricks for qualifying. With the .38 you score as much as you can at the five foot range and pray the rest of the rounds in as the range increases.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 17, 2020, 01:29:35 PM
When I was with the Deserter Apprehension Program we had to fly armed once in a while. So we had to qualify with that POS revolver. I had grown up with a Marine mentor so I knew the tricks for qualifying. With the .38 you score as much as you can at the five foot range and pray the rest of the rounds in as the range increases.
Yeah, and if all else fails just throw your pistol at the target.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2020, 04:34:01 PM
Yeah, and if all else fails just throw your pistol at the target.
My own plan was to throw the Chief's Special and pull the 9mm. Fifteen in the clip and one up the pipe.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 17, 2020, 04:45:24 PM
My own plan was to throw the Chief's Special and pull the 9mm. Fifteen in the clip and one up the pipe.
In hindsight, my favorite weapon was the M-14. Very accurate, great distance, lots of power and it would work even dumped in the mud. But then, I never fired the weapon in (or even close to) combat. Might have picked a different weapon then.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2020, 10:57:02 PM
In hindsight, my favorite weapon was the M-14. Very accurate, great distance, lots of power and it would work even dumped in the mud. But then, I never fired the weapon in (or even close to) combat. Might have picked a different weapon then.
I used to swing twin fifties in a power tub. Lethal at four miles. (No, not aimed, just beating the ground to separate the fox from the hens.)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 18, 2020, 07:35:21 AM
I used to swing twin fifties in a power tub. Lethal at four miles. (No, not aimed, just beating the ground to separate the fox from the hens.)
While in the NG, I did get to fire a couple of hundred rounds of a fifty, on a range, of course. Very effective weapon!
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2020, 09:03:14 AM
While in the NG, I did get to fire a couple of hundred rounds of a fifty, on a range, of course. Very effective weapon!
When I got my Masters some friends got me a present. It was a M2 .50 cal. Browning heavy machine gun. According to the serial numbers it had served in Vietnam at some point. The possibility exists that it was one of my guns.
I have the mg on long term loan to a certain state's emergency reaction team. Just in case they have to shoot a car in half or something. They visit various areas around the state each year for "Fam Fire Day". The last one was a few miles from here, hard by a state prison. They always invite me, of course. Local LEOs get some trigger time with a small cannon and the prisoners get to hear a heavy machine gun being operated by the guards. The message is clear.
Quote from: twozerozeroonefive on May 15, 2020, 02:51:38 AM
I've heard that it's like a permanent deep sleep with no dreams. If that's true, then that's scary.
Maybe it's sort of like not being born yet (pre-life)?
Really hope there's something after this.
How have you heard it's like permanent deep sleep?
When have you ever talked to someone that has actually returned from the dead? There sure are plenty of claimed Near death experiences, but those are "NEAR" death,
From what I can tell, it's not like anything to be dead, since there is no mind to have an experience of being dead. Everything that is me, ceases to exist when I die, since there is no operating brain to create the person that is me.
As Mark Twain might have said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.â€
Yeah, why fear something you can never experience?
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 19, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
Yeah, why fear something you can never experience?
Depends on how you define death. Some people are alive, yet dead (to the world) ;-)
Some are dead from the neck up.
What I fear about death is that when some creepy crawly thing is on my face, I can't brush it off.
Quote from: SGOS on May 19, 2020, 10:22:14 PM
What I fear about death is that when some creepy crawly thing is on my face, I can't brush it off.
How about having a nose itch you can't scratch? ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 20, 2020, 03:24:04 AM
How about having a nose itch you can't scratch? ;-)
"Severe scrotal irritation" for the win.
Quote from: Simon Moon on May 19, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
How have you heard it's like permanent deep sleep?
When have you ever talked to someone that has actually returned from the dead? There sure are plenty of claimed Near death experiences, but those are "NEAR" death,
From what I can tell, it's not like anything to be dead, since there is no mind to have an experience of being dead. Everything that is me, ceases to exist when I die, since there is no operating brain to create the person that is me.
As Mark Twain might have said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.â€
None really come back to describe it. So there is no empirical evidence separate from ... it is rational, in materialism, to say dead is dead. But rationality is bogus, and so is materialism. They are just some of the many mad ravings of monkeys ... theology, philosophy are the products of depraved psychology.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 19, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
Yeah, why fear something you can never experience?
Let me shoot you in the head (sarcasm) and you can give us a report ;-(
A fish can never experience flying (like a bird), so flying must be a conspiracy theory.
Quote from: Baruch on May 20, 2020, 03:24:04 AM
How about having a nose itch you can't scratch? ;-)
Yeah, like Jesus did when he was hanging on the cross.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 20, 2020, 12:36:31 PM
Yeah, like Jesus did when he was hanging on the cross.
Yes, the Gospels didn't emphasize that enough. Being G-d's Only Son he could have nagged the Romans with ... "It will be 1500 more years before pasta and marinara sauce are invented. Losers!"
It's very boring.
Quote from: Sal1981 on May 21, 2020, 05:25:36 PM
It's very boring.
Old joke .. guy was visited by an angel. The angel said, I will show you Heaven and Hell. You get to choose. He visited Heaven and it was a bunch of old people playing cards and such. He visited Hell and it was a bunch of party goers. So he chooses Hell. He gets to Hell, and he is in boiling lava. He asks the angel, what gives, I saw a much better Hell! Angel replies ... that was the beta version ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 20, 2020, 11:20:40 AM
None really come back to describe it. So there is no empirical evidence separate from ... it is rational, in materialism, to say dead is dead. But rationality is bogus, and so is materialism. They are just some of the many mad ravings of monkeys ... theology, philosophy are the products of depraved psychology.
It is rational to say dead is dead, because that is all we have evidence for. As soon as you, or any other person claiming there is a non material realm or reality, can provide anything beyond personal conjecture, ancient texts, etc, maybe you can gain some traction.
Just to put it into perspective, please provide an example of one thing that was once an unknown, that was attributed to the non material, that when the actual explanation was found, it turned out to be the non material. Please let me know how one would go about discovering the non material, within your worldview?
Yes, we all presuppose that rationality is rational. After all, it continues to work. So, at least there is some amount of evidence that is more than just ravings or mad monkeys. But theists and non materialists also presuppose some other non material reality tacked on to their presupposition that rationality is rational.
So, please tell me what is your justification that the non material exists?
This may be preaching to the choir but I liked it.
https://youtu.be/ipiewC3QP-k
Sam Harris - secular Buddhist, knows everything ;-)
The question I have, is there life during life, most people I know might as well be dead ;-)
I was dead for billions of years - you'd think I'd be able to remember some of that immense time, but I developed amnesia as soon as I was born.
;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2020, 03:54:17 PM
I was dead for billions of years - you'd think I'd be able to remember some of that immense time, but I developed amnesia as soon as I was born.
;-)
A joke, since it contradicts your basic POV, which is that there can be no pre-life or post-life. In folk theology, you knew everything when you were inside your mother (they are all Karens and you were a part of her), but when you are born, the dimple between your nose and mouth is formed where an angel touches you, and that is what causes your amnesia. Folk theology frequently contradicts the authoritative kind. In the movie Baby Geniuses, it takes a bit of time after birth before you forget everything, hence you are as genius as your mother for a little while ;-)
Dreamless sleep
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on December 21, 2020, 04:47:35 PM
Dreamless sleep
A metaphor. When taken literally it is contradictory, since when you are asleep, dreamless or not, you are still alive. Death means not alive. In fact most of your "life" happens unconsciously, even when you are awake. Consciousness is a fairly ridiculous epiphenomenon compared to the unconscious ;-) In daily Jewish prayer, you thank G-d when you awake, for resurrecting you. On that basis, Jesus was in a coma.
What's it like to be a bat?
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2020, 09:41:41 PM
What's it like to be a bat?
Magic School Bus answered lots of science questions like that. Thru some science and some imagination, mostly imagination. What is it like to be an old bat? Nancy Pelosi ;-)
"I used to be a Nihilist but it was absolutely meaningless" ... bwahaha.