What would you say made you an atheist, or were you always an atheist? For me, reading the Bible and finding contradictions and false prophecies in it along with its glorifying genocide and murder made me realize that the "author" of such evil could not be a perfect god. But here are other possible reasons to be an atheist:
êž³ Wanting to be Free of Religious "Morality"
êž³ Disgust with Religious Hypocrisy and Evil
êž³ A Desire to Think Freely
êž³ Wanting to be Different
êž³ Politics or Economics
êž³ Curiosity about Science, Philosophy, or History
êž³ Inability to Believe in a God Who Allows Suffering
êž³ Disinterest or Apathy With Religion and Theism
êž³ A Desire to Oppose Religious People
êž³ Seeing Religion as Irrational or Even as Mental Illness
êž³ Wanting to "Sin" in the Religious Sense
êž³ A Fear that a Horrible God Does Exist
êž³ A Desire to Imagine People Living in Peace for This Life Without Countries or Faiths to Die For and the World Will be as One
A newborn is an atheist.
And then religion is imposed on them.
Freedom from religion? relatively easy.
Freedom from the likely possibility of God. Hard to do.
Mine adventure? Later...
I don't remember a time I believed in god---ever. But I do remember a time when I felt I was lacking something for not believing in god. But the more I looked into it, yearned to become a believer, the more I realized it was not possible. The deeper the study, the more I read the bible, it simply reinforced not believing. Nothing about organized religion--not the people, not the leaders, not the material, not the teachings--lead me to becoming a believer; all of that lead me to simply being reinforced in my nonbelief. Each day, I understand more fully how truly evil religion is.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on March 27, 2020, 11:02:58 PM
A newborn is an atheist.
And then religion is imposed on them.
Freedom from religion? relatively easy.
Freedom from the likely possibility of God. Hard to do.
Mine adventure? Later...
Followed you until this sentence (2 sentences actually) :Freedom from the likely possibility of God. Hard to do
I have studied enough, pondered enough to know it has been proven (to me) that it is not possible for a god or gods of any kind to ever have been. I is not a likely possibility that god(s) exist--it is an impossibility! Without a shadow of a doubt!!
What made me a free-thinking theist?
A Desire to Think Freely (I see this as a birthright of all people).
Curiosity about Science, Philosophy, or History (I don't see a conflict between physics and anthropology).
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on March 27, 2020, 11:02:58 PMFreedom from the likely possibility of God. Hard to do.
Well, I suppose it's hard for some people to find freedom from the possibility of ET abductions and Bigfoot, too. Like ETs and Sasquatch, mere possibility is what belief in God thrives on.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 27, 2020, 11:44:32 PM
I don't remember a time I believed in god---ever. But I do remember a time when I felt I was lacking something for not believing in god. But the more I looked into it, yearned to become a believer, the more I realized it was not possible. The deeper the study, the more I read the bible, it simply reinforced not believing. Nothing about organized religion--not the people, not the leaders, not the material, not the teachings--lead me to becoming a believer; all of that lead me to simply being reinforced in my nonbelief.
My experience with theism is like your own in that I thoroughly looked for a god. And like you, the harder I looked, the more false claims of gods seemed. These experiences expose as slander the claims of Christian apologists that we atheists don't want to know the truth of Christian claims.
QuoteEach day, I understand more fully how truly evil religion is.
That's one of the reasons I'm an atheist. I do not wish to support the evil of religion. If I had found a "good" religion, then it's less likely that I would be an atheist today.
Quote from: Baruch on March 28, 2020, 10:24:11 AM
What made me a free-thinking theist?
We're going off-topic, but I think it's safe to say that free-thinking theists are very rare. Most people who believe in some god belong to a religion, and as we all know religions maintain tight control over their followers' thinking. "Religion" is essentially synonymous to limited thinking.
QuoteA Desire to Think Freely (I see this as a birthright of all people).
I don't know if free thinking is a "birthright," but oddly most people don't seem to want to think freely. Maybe they fear they will arrive at conclusions that will disturb them. Religion, then, may act as a protective barrier between comforting thoughts and what people don't want to know, the harsh facts of reality.
Quote from: Jagella on March 28, 2020, 05:01:47 PM
We're going off-topic, but I think it's safe to say that free-thinking theists are very rare. Most people who believe in some god belong to a religion, and as we all know religions maintain tight control over their followers' thinking. "Religion" is essentially synonymous to limited thinking.
I don't know if free thinking is a "birthright," but oddly most people don't seem to want to think freely. Maybe they fear they will arrive at conclusions that will disturb them. Religion, then, may act as a protective barrier between comforting thoughts and what people don't want to know, the harsh facts of reality.
I am different from anyone else here. Not an echo chamber contributor. But I wanted to respond in this case anyway. Per anecdotal evidence, your list of items are real for some people. So I am not criticizing.
Inability to find credible evidence for a god.
That was huge, and for me was an unfulfilled quest that began around the age of five. Now a five year old is probably going to be somewhat limited in resources at spotting credible evidence, but as my mind matured, even the pool of possibly credible evidence began to shrink. In addition, much of my lack of knowledge that could be explained by a god was filled in with information that explained why a god was not necessary. As the years went by, my predisposition to believe lessened until I recognized God as a concept, more than an actual thing. The scale that measures "god/not god" became so unbalanced as to be interpreted as simply "not god."
Frankly, I think the world has far more atheists than we are aware of. Being an atheist, reaching that conclusion, I think, is easier than we admit. The real issue is the “freedom†to say you are. We have always had the “freedom†to say we are an atheist, but we had the sensibility not to, simply because the social ramifications were at the least, ostracized from said society, or more easily with the added bell of future deterrence, death.
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2020, 09:24:59 AM
Frankly, I think the world has far more atheists than we are aware of. Being an atheist, reaching that conclusion, I think, is easier than we admit. The real issue is the “freedom†to say you are. We have always had the “freedom†to say we are an atheist, but we had the sensibility not to, simply because the social ramifications were at the least, ostracized from said society, or more easily with the added bell of future deterrence, death.
True for me. And it wasn't admitting it to my friends, as much as admitting it to myself, which kept me searching for so long. I've wondered at times, when I became an atheist. Was it when I started doubting when I was five, somewhere in my 20s, or when I finally recognized it in myself and said with surprise, "I am an atheist?"
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2020, 09:24:59 AM
Frankly, I think the world has far more atheists than we are aware of. Being an atheist, reaching that conclusion, I think, is easier than we admit. The real issue is the “freedom†to say you are. We have always had the “freedom†to say we are an atheist, but we had the sensibility not to, simply because the social ramifications were at the least, ostracized from said society, or more easily with the added bell of future deterrence, death.
That's why many people in eras past called themselves "deists".
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on March 29, 2020, 10:27:58 AM
That's why many people in eras past called themselves "deists".
At night, called night-ists ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on March 29, 2020, 08:53:12 AM
Inability to find credible evidence for a god.
That would come under philosophy. Philosophy is very useful and important in helping us answer questions regarding what is evidence and how much evidence is sufficient to come to a conclusion. As far as gods are concerned, I see the evidence for their existence as being deficient.
QuoteThat was huge, and for me was an unfulfilled quest that began around the age of five. Now a five year old is probably going to be somewhat limited in resources at spotting credible evidence, but as my mind matured, even the pool of possibly credible evidence began to shrink. In addition, much of my lack of knowledge that could be explained by a god was filled in with information that explained why a god was not necessary. As the years went by, my predisposition to believe lessened until I recognized God as a concept, more than an actual thing. The scale that measures "god/not god" became so unbalanced as to be interpreted as simply "not god."
My quest was like yours in that it started when I was a Catholic schoolboy. The religion I was taught just didn't seem right but more than that the people who taught it to me didn't seem right. When I was old enough to think for myself, I finally found the key to free myself from the religious prison. That "key" was knowledge. It's no wonder God punished Eve and Adam for eating from the tree of knowledge. God knew that with knowledge, we would discover that he was "the man behind the curtain."
(http://www.tiaft.org/data/uploads/presidentessages/2018/wizard-of-oz.jpg)
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2020, 09:24:59 AM
Frankly, I think the world has far more atheists than we are aware of. Being an atheist, reaching that conclusion, I think, is easier than we admit. The real issue is the “freedom†to say you are. We have always had the “freedom†to say we are an atheist, but we had the sensibility not to, simply because the social ramifications were at the least, ostracized from said society, or more easily with the added bell of future deterrence, death.
I've often wondered if almost all of us are atheists--the only true theists being the most deluded. We act like atheists not really relying on religion or faith or prayer but on our own efforts to solve problems. If we really believed that gods exist, then it seems reasonable to me that we would rely on them to solve problems.
Quote from: Jagella on March 29, 2020, 09:48:17 PM
I've often wondered if almost all of us are atheists--the only true theists being the most deluded. We act like atheists not really relying on religion or faith or prayer but on our own efforts to solve problems. If we really believed that gods exist, then it seems reasonable to me that we would rely on them to solve problems.
Old Christian saying ... God helps those who help themselves.
“Pray as though everything depended on you, and act as if everything depended on God.†- St Ignatius of Loyola
"So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.â€" - John 4:48
Behind the curtain? When I was a boy, I caught my dad putting things under the Christmas tree. But I still loved him. Later I played Santa Claus myself at an old folks home. This wasn't an epistemology problem, or even a trust problem, but an act of love.
Atheists have a very clear, Pharisaical idea as to what a miracle is. I say, everything, even my hand typing this, is a miracle.
Quote from: Baruch on March 29, 2020, 10:15:32 PM
Atheists have a very clear, Pharisaical idea as to what a miracle is. I say, everything, even my hand typing this, is a miracle.
Maybe Jesus never forked over a miracle for the Pharisees because he knew that without gullibility, it couldn't work.
In any event, I do not recall any typing hands presented in the Bible as miraculous. It's just not very impressive, I suppose. I'd prefer to see a flying zombie. That would get me thinking.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Jesus_ascending_to_heaven.jpg/240px-Jesus_ascending_to_heaven.jpg)
Quote from: Jagella on March 29, 2020, 11:09:30 PM
Maybe Jesus never forked over a miracle for the Pharisees because he knew that without gullibility, it couldn't work.
In any event, I do not recall any typing hands presented in the Bible as miraculous. It's just not very impressive, I suppose. I'd prefer to see a flying zombie. That would get me thinking.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Jesus_ascending_to_heaven.jpg/240px-Jesus_ascending_to_heaven.jpg)
Psychosomatic cures work with psychosomatic disease. Faith in high tech medicine may have been what released the current pandemic "our containment is secure" at Wuhan virology lab. By all means ignore nosocomial infection.
Making of an atheist? Sperm + egg.
Good title for a lousy movie
Quote from: aitm on March 31, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
Good title for a lousy movie
I'd love to see Hollywood make a major motion picture about a Christian's journey to atheism. I'd gladly write the script based on my own experiences.
Quote from: Jagella on March 31, 2020, 08:09:04 PM
I'd love to see Hollywood make a major motion picture about a Christian's journey to atheism. I'd gladly write the script based on my own experiences.
Nah, hell the plots already titled, no mystery, and frankly nobody would watch it. What for?
The Ledge is an interesting atheist movie, but it's not about waking up from the fog of religion. It's just the about a compassionate atheist, with a Christian protagonist caught up in his own self righteousness, and vile morality.
Quote from: Jagella on March 27, 2020, 10:37:02 PM
What would you say made you an atheist, or were you always an atheist?
I was raised Methodist and went to church every week but never believed in God. I attribute my atheism to not being neurologically predisposed to spirituality, being very introverted, and not being strictly indoctrinated as a child.
Quote from: SGOS on April 01, 2020, 07:58:52 AM
The Ledge is an interesting atheist movie, but it's not about waking up from the fog of religion. It's just the about a compassionate atheist, with a Christian protagonist caught up in his own self righteousness, and vile morality.
All stories are stereotypes. Can't be anything else. So we watch the ones that validate us. Americans are well acquainted with the moralizing egotistical American Christian. In fact, that stereotype applies to any American. SJWs are just secular Puritans.
Quote from: aitm on March 31, 2020, 10:03:02 PM
Nah, hell the plots already titled, no mystery, and frankly nobody would watch it. What for?
I can't speak for others, but I'd love to see a good flick about a person's loss of religious faith. I think such a film would be would be very timely considering the growing numbers of "nones" (those who have no religious affiliation). It would let a lot of people know that they're not alone.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 01, 2020, 11:33:29 AMI was raised Methodist and went to church every week but never believed in God. I attribute my atheism to not being neurologically predisposed to spirituality, being very introverted, and not being strictly indoctrinated as a child.
I think your story is not unique. I remember seeing kids in a Pentecostal church I used to attend. Some of them really seemed turned off by the insanity around them. Like you and other people, they simply endured the religion that was forced on them although their indoctrination may have been stricter than yours. As a kid I believed what I was taught, but it was very obvious to me that those who taught me were not nice people. I could not square a good God who was followed by such terrible people.
And I still can't!
(https://i0.wp.com/nyctalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mean-nun-1-1.jpg)
Quote from: Jagella on April 01, 2020, 07:21:54 PM
As a kid I believed what I was taught, but it was very obvious to me that those who taught me were not nice people. I could not square a good God who was followed by such terrible people.
And I still can't!
The people I went to church with were nice people. I really felt what I was learning in church was like Aesop's Fables, it was an allegory. Jesus didn't actually come back to life, God didn't really speak to people-- that wasn't real life. I believed early as a child that people had a public persona that didn't always reflect who they really were because I very deliberately created a persona. As a child, I thought most people said they believed in God and the Bible because they were trying to appear like a good person and not because they truly believed it was real because that is what I was doing.
^ This
For much of my so called Christian life, I believed most everyone took the Bible with a grain of salt, and certainly EVERYONE took at least parts of the Bible with a grain of salt. I believed everyone was pretty much like me in that regard (a classic psychological projection on my part). I was well out of my teens when I realized my perceptions about the skepticism of others was totally wrong. Many people actually did believe religious myth completely. This knocked me off balance when I realized it. The end effect was that the depth of belief of others, turned me farther away from religion. I didn't mind being part of the crowd of people who signaled their goodness by pretending to believe the world was created in 7 days, or that Noah somehow got polar bears and arctic foxes on the ark, or that Jesus actually came back to life. I could go along with it assuming others were just pretending to be that devout, but I couldn't go along with it when I realized that most were actually gullible Looney tunes. I didn't want to be part of that. Still,that was only the beginning of my journey. I worked at personalizing Christianity in such a way that the square pegs might actually fit in the round holes, until many years down the road, I gave up on that too.
Quote from: SGOS on April 01, 2020, 11:58:01 PM
^ This
For much of my so called Christian life, I believed most everyone took the Bible with a grain of salt, and certainly EVERYONE took at least parts of the Bible with a grain of salt. I believed everyone was pretty much like me in that regard (a classic psychological projection on my part). I was well out of my teens when I realized my perceptions about the skepticism of others was totally wrong. Many people actually did believe religious myth completely. This knocked me off balance when I realized it.
I distinctly remember the moment I had that realization. I was in sophomore English class and something we were reading referenced hell. I raised my hand and in my comment said that hell wasn't real, not for a moment thinking what I was saying was controversial. The teacher, who happened to also be a pastor, said hell was very real. I replied that hell was not an actual place, that it was at best a metaphor. Then I realized he was clearly offended and other students were looking at me like I had said the f-word. Students after class were asking me if I was really an atheist. I really didn't consider myself an atheist at the time because I thought that there might be some kind of creator of the universe or something but I didn't believe the Biblical God was real. Several people wrote, half-joking, "HELL IS REAL!" in my yearbook.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 02, 2020, 12:23:51 AM
I distinctly remember the moment I had that realization. I was in sophomore English class and something we were reading referenced hell. I raised my hand and in my comment said that hell wasn't real, not for a moment thinking what I was saying was controversial. The teacher, who happened to also be a pastor, said hell was very real. I replied that hell was not an actual place, that it was at best a metaphor. Then I realized he was clearly offended and other students were looking at me like I had said the f-word. Students after class were asking me if I was really an atheist. I really didn't consider myself an atheist at the time because I thought that there might be some kind of creator of the universe or something but I didn't believe the Biblical God was real. Several people wrote, half-joking, "HELL IS REAL!" in my yearbook.
Metaphors are hate speech ;-)
"...God didn't really speak to people..." - GSOgymrat
The phenomenon is real. - What explains it? Put simply, psychosis
Quote from: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 12:45:51 PM
"...God didn't really speak to people..." - GSOgymrat
The phenomenon is real. - What explains it? Put simply, psychosis
What is consciousness? Pragmatic psychosis. You have been in "primal scream" since you came out of your birth mother.
Sophisticates? Virtue signalling psychotics ;-)
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 01, 2020, 11:30:13 PM
The people I went to church with were nice people.
I had a very different experience with religious people in general although I have known some exceptions to the rule. The "nice" religious people I've known have been very few.
QuoteI really felt what I was learning in church was like Aesop's Fables, it was an allegory. Jesus didn't actually come back to life, God didn't really speak to people-- that wasn't real life.
I eventually concluded that Christian stories are allegory, but as a Christian I did believe they really happened. I think the reason I ended up an atheist is that I took what I was taught as a Christian very seriously and very literally. If Moses had a magical staff, then he had a magical staff, and I could have one too! But when I actually tried my own "magical staff," I found it didn't work. I tried prayer, and it didn't work. The same failures resulted from faith and Bible study. I simply had to conclude that it didn't work and wasn't true. Unlike most Christians, I didn't ignore these failures or come up with elaborate rationalizations to explain them away. I honestly and logically concluded that Christian claims are all a lot of baloney.
QuoteI believed early as a child that people had a public persona that didn't always reflect who they really were because I very deliberately created a persona. As a child, I thought most people said they believed in God and the Bible because they were trying to appear like a good person and not because they truly believed it was real because that is what I was doing.
Maybe being a phony like that works for some people. One of my sisters is a Christian and a HUGE phony. She literally lives her lies.
Quote from: Baruch on April 02, 2020, 01:28:18 PM
What is consciousness? Pragmatic psychosis. You have been in "primal scream" since you came out of your birth mother.
Sophisticates? Virtue signalling psychotics ;-)
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, so said Leonardo DÃ Vinci.
Quote from: Gregory on April 05, 2020, 11:15:57 PM
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, so said Leonardo DÃ Vinci.
Da Vinci didn't have an iPhone, so he had nothing ;-)
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Einstein
What can be simpler than atheism?
Quote from: Gregory on April 06, 2020, 01:35:39 AM
What can be simpler than atheism?
Nihilism. Not only is theism wrong, everything is wrong ;-)