A good third of the Koran doesn't make sense in Arabic. Arabic is meant to be the closest language to perfection but not in this case. Syro-Aramaic is a much better match.
Oh, fantastic argument.
i used to be Muslim and after i've just read your point and i've happened to be Muslim.
hmm, interesting.
Irony ... no language is pure, particularly as used by Puritans.
All religions are based on hagiography, not history. Islam was most conscious of this, and did the best effort to cover up the truth.
BTW … I am a student of religions, languages and history … including Islam.
Aww, guess I'll have to tell my nephew that Muhammad won't come visiting on his flying pink unicorn from the moon then
Quote from: Munch on February 29, 2020, 05:37:45 AM
Aww, guess I'll have to tell my nephew that Muhammad won't come visiting on his flying pink unicorn from the moon then
No, on a former US President, Burach Obama ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on February 29, 2020, 01:29:27 AM
All religions are based on hagiography, not history.
Yeah, that and syncretism.
Quote from: Baruch on February 29, 2020, 05:51:42 AM
No, on a former US President, Burach Obama ;-)
I just noticed the similarity between "Burach" and "Baruch" - are you sure you're not him?
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 29, 2020, 01:32:23 PM
I just noticed the similarity between "Burach" and "Baruch" - are you sure you're not him?
That was the point of the joke, on Obama, not me. My middle name isn't Hussein.
Language is more like a cipher than anything. Symbols we use to determine a common meaning and understanding.
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 05, 2020, 11:15:28 AM
Language is more like a cipher than anything. Symbols we use to determine a common meaning and understanding.
Yes!
But there has to be a common meaning/understanding between the people in conversation (or one directional from historical author to reader). Semaphore means nothing in itself, it is a channel, not data. Triggered data on one end is signaled to triggered data on the other end. Regular information theory is based on the channel and data being the same. As if the FM frequency is the same as the radio station content. Without humans on each end, a decrypted cypher is simply gibberish translated into new gibberish. Like the Easter Island wood carvings.
So with the Quran for example, that is a particular political-economy speaking out of about 750 CE into the present. It means something, to Muslims on this end, and like all scripture it can't be cross-examined because the communication is one-way. The Latin Bible is a different political-economy speaking out of about 350 CE into the present ... while hitchhiking on the back of yet another political-economy speaking out of 150 CE. Futuristic idealists of course want to jettison the past, it is too constricting. But even if you try to ignore the past, you are the product of it.
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 12:40:16 PM
Yes!
But there has to be a common meaning/understanding between the people in conversation (or one directional from historical author to reader). Semaphore means nothing in itself, it is a channel, not data. Triggered data on one end is signaled to triggered data on the other end. Regular information theory is based on the channel and data being the same. As if the FM frequency is the same as the radio station content. Without humans on each end, a decrypted cypher is simply gibberish translated into new gibberish. Like the Easter Island wood carvings.
So with the Quran for example, that is a particular political-economy speaking out of about 750 CE into the present. It means something, to Muslims on this end, and like all scripture it can't be cross-examined because the communication is one-way. The Latin Bible is a different political-economy speaking out of about 350 CE into the present ... while hitchhiking on the back of yet another political-economy speaking out of 150 CE. Futuristic idealists of course want to jettison the past, it is too constricting. But even if you try to ignore the past, you are the product of it.
We all products of our past, but when the past is simply gibberish to us, we are not communing with the past, we are simply reciting in an echo chamber of our own desire.
Quote from: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 08:20:04 PM
We all products of our past, but when the past is simply gibberish to us, we are not communing with the past, we are simply reciting in an echo chamber of our own desire.
That is what "woke" is. We had this in the 60s, we called it "cool". As a Baby Boomer, I am supposed to be entitled to anything I want, anytime, anyplace, at the expense of anyone other than myself. If it feels good, just do it. If you can't do it for yourself, organize a pressure group to get the government to do it for you.
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2020, 08:39:54 PM
That is what "woke" is. We had this in the 60s, we called it "cool". As a Baby Boomer, I am supposed to be entitled to anything I want, anytime, anyplace, at the expense of anyone other than myself. If it feels good, just do it. If you can't do it for yourself, organize a pressure group to get the government to do it for you.
Satanism has never been big, except with kooks.
Quote from: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Satanism has never been big, except with kooks.
The LeVey Satanism was a San Francisco treat, like Rice-a-Roni.
If I can't understand you, you are either racist or sexist or both.
Quote from: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 08:45:09 PM
If I can't understand you, you are either racist or sexist or both.
You must be "woke". I suggest more sleep.
Deceit has many names.
Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 10:31:23 PM
Deceit has many names.
All words are synonyms - Newspeak
I don't think the word "synonym" is a synonym...
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2020, 01:38:03 PM
I don't think the word "synonym" is a synonym...
"Synonym" is a synonym for confusion. I much prefer antonyms.
If I can't understand you, you are either sexist, racist or just plain stupid.
The Koran is still read, however the Islamic schools instruct their followers what to understand from it as there is no real sense to it.
Quote from: Gregory on March 16, 2020, 09:47:17 PM
The Koran is still read, however the Islamic schools instruct their followers what to understand from it as there is no real sense to it.
Yes, anthologies of oracular poetry in a special dialect of Classical Arabic is hard for even native speakers of colloquial Arabic to understand. In most organizations, the law for instance, you have specialists explain it to you. This is usually true of religious scriptures. At times even I find great value in someone's clever interpretation of something that is unclear.
Of course we could go back to Ancient Athens, where Socrates didn't have a defense attorney, he had to address the court and witnesses all by himself. But his arrogance was up to the task of being his own expert. Are you?
Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 10:15:33 PM
Yes, anthologies of oracular poetry in a special dialect of Classical Arabic is hard for even native speakers of colloquial Arabic to understand. In most organizations, the law for instance, you have specialists explain it to you. This is usually true of religious scriptures. At times even I find great value in someone's clever interpretation of something that is unclear.
Of course we could go back to Ancient Athens, where Socrates didn't have a defense attorney, he had to address the court and witnesses all by himself. But his arrogance was up to the task of being his own expert. Are you?
I don't have the arrogance of Socrates or the wisdom of Solomon. I am but mortal.
Quote from: Gregory on March 17, 2020, 01:39:31 AM
I don't have the arrogance of Socrates or the wisdom of Solomon. I am but mortal.
So where they. If you put anyone on a pedestal, then they are just marble.
Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2020, 08:40:32 AM
So where they. If you put anyone on a pedestal, then they are just marble.
A nice turn of phrase.
Quote from: Gregory on March 17, 2020, 09:16:15 PM
A nice turn of phrase.
Only if you put the statue on a turntable ... like the famous "Venus Bathing" ;-)