Atheistforums.com

Hi.
So, I am a theist and I do like to talk about religion and spirituality. This is something that's fun to me and I'm the kind of person that like to hear different views.

Are you interested in having a one on one conversation?

No. Post whatever you have to say here, if you are so inclined.

Oh. That's no problem.

I'm actually new here. And one of the links on here says one on one discussion.

So is there a one on one discussion area or do I just have to post in general?

This area of the forums is for one-on-one, yes - but that doesn't mean it supposed to be private.

Ok. I see.

So I  guess I'll start.

So what if I told you that we will never know God completely.

We can only know God through His names and attributes.

In addition to Sal's explanation of the inner workings of our forum, I'd like to add that before a post-count of at least ten, newcomers are not supposed to create any threads apart from an introduction art one.
It's not much of a speedbump, but we do appreciate those who abide by it.

But since you already started this one and, what the heck, it's 2020, I'll oblige. If you told me that, I wouldn't know what to think or respond. Simply because I don't know what you mean by that.

Welcome to our little band of heathens.
Happy new year.

Oh. I don't know that newcomers had to have an introduction.

But thanks for welcoming me.

What I mean by that is some ask for physical evidence of God. But the thing is that we will never have physical proof of God. The best proof of God is the human being itself.

In the physical world the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. That's what makes the human being have dominion over the animal.

The names and attributes of God that the human being displays are basically all of the good qualities that the human being can have. Even though we just don't call them that.

So the best way to know about God is to know the human being.

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 08:17:39 PM
What I mean by that is some ask for physical evidence of God. But the thing is that we will never have physical proof of God. The best proof of God is the human being itself.

How so?

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 08:17:39 PM
In the physical world the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. That's what makes the human being have dominion over the animal.

Which god?

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 08:17:39 PM
The names and attributes of God that the human being displays are basically all of the good qualities that the human being can have. Even though we just don't call them that.

This seems like a trite semantic "argument". I could say the same about, as a certain renowned author once noticed, how a puddle fits itself perfectly.

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 08:17:39 PM
So the best way to know about God is to know the human being.

So being doctor, biologist and neurologist?

Quote from: Sal1981 on December 31, 2019, 09:11:23 PMWhich god?

The God that we commonly know that created the universe and created all living creatures including the human being.

Quote from: Sal1981 on December 31, 2019, 09:11:23 PMHow so?

We will never have physical evidence of God because God is not a physical entity. God created the physical universe.
The human being is the best evidence for God because the human being is the only animal that can manifest God through all the divine names and attributes at the highest level.

Quote from: Sal1981 on December 31, 2019, 09:11:23 PMSo being doctor, biologist and neurologist?

Yes, all human beings have the potential to display all of the divine names and attributes of God at the highest level.

Now every living thing can display the names and attributes of God but just some of them and at a low level. But it is the human being that has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. Basically the human being is the greatest and most perfect of all of God's creations.

Baha'u'llah says in the Kitáb-i-íqán:
"From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things, visible and invisible. Thus hath He revealed: “Hath aught else save Thee a power of revelation which is not possessed by Thee, that it could have manifested Thee? Blind is the eye which doth not perceive Thee.” Likewise, hath the eternal King spoken: “No thing have I perceived, except that I perceived God within it, God before it, or God after it.” Also in the tradition of Kumayl it is written: “Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the Morn of eternity, and lo! its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men.” Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory". 

Here's another quote from Baha'u'llah about the human being:
"The traditions and sayings that bear direct reference to Our theme are divers and manifold; We have refrained from quoting them for the sake of brevity. Nay, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that most great Light. Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the heavenly Books and the holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not then behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King... hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.”

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 10:15:01 PM
Now every living thing can display the names and attributes of God but just some of them and at a low level. But it is the human being that has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. Basically the human being is the greatest and most perfect of all of God's creations.

Perfect?

Why do humans have worse eyes than octopuses (or pretty much any bird)?, why is the larynx nerve so unnecessarily long? What's the point of having an appendix? Why such shoddy knees?

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Well this is not about being physically superior. We already know that animals have superior physical attributes. But the divine reality of the human being is far superior than the animal. We are the greatest and most perfect creation in terms of our spiritual reality. Even though physically we are animals as well, our spiritual reality is far beyond the mere animal and we can manifest God at the fullest.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:16 AM
Well this is not about being physically superior.

Why not? We're inferior in many ways to a number of attributes that animals have.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:16 AM
We already know that animals have superior physical attributes. But the divine reality of the human being is far superior than the animal.

I have no idea what "divine reality" is supposed to mean. Can you measure it? Can you weigh it? Is it human smarts?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:16 AM
We are the greatest and most perfect creation in terms of our spiritual reality. Even though physically we are animals as well, our spiritual reality is far beyond the mere animal and we can manifest God at the fullest.

In other words, because humans have such smarts we're able to divine god? Sounds like something every religion that aims for supernatural "explanations" would have. What makes your religion so special then?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 01:05:16 AM
Well this is not about being physically superior. We already know that animals have superior physical attributes. But the divine reality of the human being is far superior than the animal. We are the greatest and most perfect creation in terms of our spiritual reality. Even though physically we are animals as well, our spiritual reality is far beyond the mere animal and we can manifest God at the fullest.

Real question, do you believe in aura?

od19g6 is Bahai.  Better than most religions actually.  Up in the religion section, just tell us what good Bahai is doing today.  Theology argument doesn't count for much here.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 01:20:55 AMWhy not? We're inferior in many ways to a number of attributes that animals have.

Because that's the way it works in nature. We are "physically"
Inferior in many ways to a number of "physical" attributes that the animal have. The human being is superior in terms of our spiritual reality.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 01:20:55 AMI have no idea what "divine reality" is supposed to mean. Can you measure it? Can you weigh it? Is it human smarts.

The divine / spiritual reality is just the immaterial nature that only the human being have that's why we can display all of the divine qualities of God at the highest level. And no other living creature can do that other than the human being.
You know how in the bible it say God created man in His image? What that simply mean is that the the human being can display all of the qualities, names and attributes of God.
All the qualities that God has the human being has them as well just on a human level. For instance we all have heard the term "will of God", well guess what the human have a will too. One of the qualities of God is Creator, well guess what we're creators as well just on a human level but beyond other living things.

Let me ask you something:
Can the animal/nature invent things?

Can the animal/nature create a highly sophisticated technical language.

Can the animal/nature create technology?

Can the animal/nature build a city?

Can the animal/nature build an entire state?

Can the animal/nature build whole countries and entire civilizations?

How about this one for you: Can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel?

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 01:20:55 AMIn other words, because humans have such smarts we're able to divine god? Sounds like something every religion that aims for supernatural "explanations" would have. What makes your religion so special then?

We're able to "manifest" God, the names and attributes that is. Because remember God can never be completely known because God is beyond the physical universe and God's core reality is beyond "any" thing that's in the universe.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 01, 2020, 12:24:37 PM
Real question, do you believe in aura?

I believe in spiritual energies,  if that's what you mean.

Quote from: Baruch on January 01, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
od19g6 is Bahai.  Better than most religions actually.  Up in the religion section, just tell us what good Bahai is doing today.  Theology argument doesn't count for much here.

Bingo. You figured it out.

The baha'i faith was founded by an individual called Baha'u'llah in the 19th century, and is the latest in a long line of individuals that God has sent throughout history to teach humanity the right spiritual path. Those individuals include, Jesus Christ, Moses, the Buddha, Prophet Muhammad and the Bab, all are divine Messengers/Teachers from God and Baha'u'llah is the latest of these divine Messengers/Teachers. The word Baha'u'llah means the glory of God.

Just like those who follow Jesus Christ are called christians and those who follow Prophet Muhammad are called muslims, we who follow Baha'u'llah are called baha'is.

We believe in the concept of progressive revelation, meaning that in each age around about 1000 years and in different places God manifest an individual to be a divine Messenger/Teacher to guide humanity to the right spiritual path.

Unity is the flagship word of this faith.

For instance:

the unity of God
the unity of religion
the unity of science and spirituality
the unity of humanity

all things in this faith revolves around the word unity.

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 07:04:29 PM

We can only know God through His ... attributes.

Color me non-impressed. He sucks biggly at everything he says he is biggly at. Kinda like a somewhat popular Donald.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 02:29:40 PM

all things in this faith revolves around the word unity.

Meh...real gods don’t require faith. They provide real proof. Your god is false. Mine is real and absolutely prove-able.

Quote from: aitm on January 01, 2020, 04:12:45 PM
Color me non-impressed. He sucks biggly at everything he says he is biggly at. Kinda like a somewhat popular Donald.

Why do you say that?

Quote from: aitm on January 01, 2020, 04:19:48 PM
Meh...real gods don’t require faith. They provide real proof. Your god is false. Mine is real and absolutely prove-able.

Why do you say that?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 02:26:19 PM
I believe in spiritual energies,  if that's what you mean.

Close enough, I guess. Was kind of hoping you didn't.
Now I'm going to have to think of something else I don't believe in that you might not believe in either, to make my point.
I'll get there when I get there.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
Let me ask you something:
Can the animal/nature invent things?

Chimpanzees have shown to be able to learn tool use.

QuoteCan the animal/nature create a highly sophisticated technical language.

Probably not the same level as engineers, but beavers can build dams, that has to count for something. As well as ant colonies, bee hives & wasp hives. Not to mention all the various burrows and nests animals are able to pull off.

QuoteCan the animal/nature create technology?

Technology is just tool use. We think we're special because we've reached a level of sophistication not seen elsewhere in nature. However, ravens have shown a propensity to learn how to solve puzzles for getting food and there was a gorilla, forgot what it was called,  that learned sign language at a proficient level.

QuoteCan the animal/nature build a city?

Ants do, some species of ants build massive structures. Or is this just because you're looking at a humans doing human things?

QuoteCan the animal/nature build an entire state?

Yes, ants again.

QuoteCan the animal/nature build whole countries and entire civilizations?

Probably, nothing says they cannot.

QuoteHow about this one for you: Can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel?

Probably not.

QuoteAll of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We're able to "manifest" God, the names and attributes that is. Because remember God can never be completely known because God is beyond the physical universe and God's core reality is beyond "any" thing that's in the universe.

You're basically just co-opting something humans do, without divine intervention, and calling it "manifesting" 'god'. We do this regardless.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 01, 2020, 05:05:34 PM
Close enough, I guess. Was kind of hoping you didn't.
Now I'm going to have to think of something else I don't believe in that you might not believe in either, to make my point.
I'll get there when I get there.

Sure, take your time.

This thread really should be in the general religious discussion section. But oh well. Right away, you've already made a claim you can't support. Just because something isn't physical doesn't mean you can't study it. There are lots of things we can't perceive through our senses that we can study, via the affects they have on the world. God being non-physical doesn't excuse the fact that there is no way to objectively verify that he even exists.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 01, 2020, 05:05:34 PM
Close enough, I guess. Was kind of hoping you didn't.
Now I'm going to have to think of something else I don't believe in that you might not believe in either, to make my point.
I'll get there when I get there.

Nihilism is all down, not up.  How about don't believe in yourself?  Buddhism that.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 01, 2020, 10:18:07 PM
This thread really should be in the general religious discussion section. But oh well. Right away, you've already made a claim you can't support. Just because something isn't physical doesn't mean you can't study it. There are lots of things we can't perceive through our senses that we can study, via the affects they have on the world. God being non-physical doesn't excuse the fact that there is no way to objectively verify that he even exists.

Correct.  Theism is non-objective.  If we admit the physical includes EM field etc.  Objective means, you can have two or more disinterested researchers, examine something quantitatively (the weight of my cat) and they come up with more or less the same answer.  By labeling (right or wrong) something as non-physical, it is more or less subjective, not objective ... a mere idea.  In fundamentalist epistemology only the objective can be known.  Therefore theism is about things that can't be known.  And that leads to ignoring most of psychology and philosophy.  Mathematicians argue if math is real or not, and we leave them to it.

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 07:04:29 PM
So I  guess I'll start.

So what if I told you that we will never know God completely.

We can only know God through His names and attributes.

What is this "God" thing you're talking about? Can you define it, so we all know what we're discussing?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 01, 2020, 08:08:14 PM
Sure, take your time.

Okay, it might work with telepathy.
Or do you believe some humans have telepathy?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PM
Chimpanzees have shown to be able to learn tool use.

Yes, but chimpanzees can't invent anything near like the human being can. They can only use "tools" from directly around them like sticks etc.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMProbably not the same level as engineers, but beavers can build dams, that has to count for something. As well as ant colonies, bee hives & wasp hives. Not to mention all the various burrows and nests animals are able to pull off.

Once again that's my point the human being has the capability to create much more complex and grander things than what the mere animal can.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMTechnology is just tool use.

Yes, and guess what. Only can the human being create that tool.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMAnts do, some species of ants build massive structures.

Not nearly as grand and technologically advanced as humans can build.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMYes, ants again.

The human's are much superior.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMProbably, nothing says they cannot.

Now come on, you know that's not true.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMProbably not.

Exactly.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2020, 06:30:32 PMYou're basically just co-opting something humans do, without divine intervention, and calling it "manifesting" 'god'. We do this regardless.

Human beings can only do these things because we are the highest creatures on earth. We have a reality that no other creature on earth has and that is a divine reality. And that divine / spiritual reality are manifested in the things we do.

None of that means anything at all. Your God does not exist, you've been lied to by those you trusted to tell you the truth.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 01, 2020, 10:18:07 PM
This thread really should be in the general religious discussion section. But oh well. Right away, you've already made a claim you can't support. Just because something isn't physical doesn't mean you can't study it. There are lots of things we can't perceive through our senses that we can study, via the affects they have on the world. God being non-physical doesn't excuse the fact that there is no way to objectively verify that he even exists.

It can't be supported physically because God is not even apart of the physical universe, God is beyond the physical universe. We can only verify that God exists through His names and attributes, which is manifested in the physical universe.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2020, 01:17:49 PM
What is this "God" thing you're talking about? Can you define it, so we all know what we're discussing?

It's the God that we commonly know as created the universe including the human being.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 02, 2020, 03:52:09 PM
Okay, it might work with telepathy.
Or do you believe some humans have telepathy?

Just to be clear, what is telepathy?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2020, 07:08:04 PM
None of that means anything at all. Your God does not exist, you've been lied to by those you trusted to tell you the truth.

ok.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 07:12:51 PM
It's the God that we commonly know as created the universe including the human being.

We don't know any such thing. We have no reason at all to believe that any God created the universe.

Besides, telling me what you believe God has done is not defining God, not telling me what it is.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
It can't be supported physically because God is not even apart of the physical universe, God is beyond the physical universe.

Well that just sounds like nonexistence with extra steps.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 07:12:51 PM
It's the God that we commonly know as created the universe including the human being.

Don't be coy.  Which god do you suggest is "commonly known"?  Zeus?  Jupiter?  Odin?  Atum?  Enlil?  Brahma?  Quetzalcoatl?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2020, 07:27:02 PM
We don't know any such thing. We have no reason at all to believe that any God created the universe.

Besides, telling me what you believe God has done is not defining God, not telling me what it is.

The thing is we really can't know what God fully is. Like I keep saying God is beyond the physical universe. The only that we can know anything about God is through His qualities, names and attributes, and the human being is the best animal to manifest those to the physical world.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 07:46:10 PM
Well that just sounds like nonexistence with extra steps.

God exists, and the human being is the best proof.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 07:53:15 PM
Don't be coy.  Which god do you suggest is "commonly known"?  Zeus?  Jupiter?  Odin?  Atum?  Enlil?  Brahma?  Quetzalcoatl?

Well just like I said the one true God that created the universe and all that's in it. He's also the originator of all the religions.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 08:06:53 PM
The thing is we really can't know what God fully is. Like I keep saying God is beyond the physical universe. The only that we can know anything about God is through His qualities, names and attributes, and the human being is the best animal to manifest those to the physical world.

How can we know anything about God's qualities, names and attributes? And what do you believe those qualities, names and attributes are?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 08:06:53 PM
The thing is we really can't know what God fully is. Like I keep saying God is beyond the physical universe. The only that we can know anything about God is through His qualities, names and attributes, and the human being is the best animal to manifest those to the physical world.

That's a Catch-22. You say you cannot know anything of god, yet you profess knowledge about god through his qualities, names and attributes.

You can't have a cake and eat it too.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 08:07:53 PM
God exists, and the human being is the best proof.

Let's say that I believe in ghosts.  Ghosts aren't visible nor audible nor can they interact with the world (they cannot pick up objects, their hands just go right through them)

How then, can I say that they have hands?  Or exist at all?

Any of this getting through?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 08:10:18 PM
Well just like I said the one true God that created the universe and all that's in it. He's also the originator of all the religions.

Do you feel that you have to be vague about this God's identity so that any theist reading your partially-coherent ramblings can say that you're advancing their belief?  If you were more specific, would this ad hoc alliance of vagueries fall apart?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 02, 2020, 08:52:35 PM
That's a Catch-22. You say you cannot know anything of god, yet you profess knowledge about god through his qualities, names and attributes.

You can't have a cake and eat it too.

And the fact that this is the angle of approach is very telling.  God is something that is absolutely in evidence when claiming that he exists, but nowhere to be found - outside our universe apparently - when it comes to actually substantiating that rather bold claim.  How suspiciously convenient for the believer.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2020, 08:15:31 PM
How can we know anything about God's qualities, names and attributes? And what do you believe those qualities, names and attributes are?

We know about those qualities mainly through the human being. The names and attributes of God are basically all the good qualities that the human being can have. We just don't call them that.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 02, 2020, 08:52:35 PM
That's a Catch-22. You say you cannot know anything of god, yet you profess knowledge about god through his qualities, names and attributes.

You can't have a cake and eat it too.

I said that we can never know God "fully" or "completely".
And that the human being is the greatest sign, evidence and proof of the existence of God.

But it's actually good that you asked me that.
Let me tell you where I got this knowledge from.

I know that I talked about how the human being is the best evidence of God and that that the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. But there are beings that are on a higher level than the regular human being. These beings are known as the Prophets / Messengers of God.

The Prophets / Messengers [or what we know them as Manifestations in the baha'i scriptures] can display all of tthe names and attributes of God at the highest level "perfectly".
So if you "really" want to know God, the "absolute" best to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations of God. And Baha'u'llah is the latest of these Messengers.

Baha'u'llah says in the Kitáb-i-íqán:
"And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest".

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 08:57:17 PM
Let's say that I believe in ghosts.  Ghosts aren't visible nor audible nor can they interact with the world (they cannot pick up objects, their hands just go right through them)

How then, can I say that they have hands?  Or exist at all?

Any of this getting through?

Well we have to ask some honest questions first.
Why do you believe in ghosts, what are the nature of ghosts, are are the purpose of ghosts in the fist place? Who taught you about ghosts in the fist place?
Those kind of questions have to be answered first.

You said that ghost aren't visible so do you know if your hands can go through them if they aren't really visible?

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 09:01:01 PM
Do you feel that you have to be vague about this God's identity so that any theist reading your partially-coherent ramblings can say that you're advancing their belief?  If you were more specific, would this ad hoc alliance of vagueries fall apart?

Let me tell you where I got this knowledge from.

I know that I talked about how the human being is the best evidence of God and that that the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. But there are beings that are on a higher level than the regular human being. These beings are known as the Prophets / Messengers of God.

The Prophets / Messengers [or what we know them as Manifestations in the baha'i scriptures] can display all of tthe names and attributes of God at the highest level "perfectly".
So if you "really" want to know God, the "absolute" best to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations of God. And Baha'u'llah is the latest of these Messengers.

Baha'u'llah says in the Kitáb-i-íqán:
"And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest".

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 09:04:33 PM
And the fact that this is the angle of approach is very telling.  God is something that is absolutely in evidence when claiming that he exists, but nowhere to be found - outside our universe apparently - when it comes to actually substantiating that rather bold claim.  How suspiciously convenient for the believer.

The best evidence for God is the human being.
You will never have physical evidence of God itself.

If you "really" want to know God,  the "absolute" best way to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations. And Baha'u'llah is the latest in those Messengers.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
It can't be supported physically because God is not even apart of the physical universe, God is beyond the physical universe. We can only verify that God exists through His names and attributes, which is manifested in the physical universe.

Okay. Let me put it this way. Do you believe that God actively interacts with the universe, or that he's a silent observer? If the former, then he can be studied. If the latter, then we might as well not even have a god.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 10:35:35 PM
The best evidence for God is the human being.
You will never have physical evidence of God itself.

If you "really" want to know God,  the "absolute" best way to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations. And Baha'u'llah is the latest in those Messengers.

The human being is the product of billions of years of evolution. We are extremely specialized primates, whose survival has become dependent on cooperation and the use of tools. That's it.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 10:26:40 PM
Well we have to ask some honest questions first.
Why do you believe in ghosts, what are the nature of ghosts, are are the purpose of ghosts in the fist place? Who taught you about ghosts in the fist place?
Those kind of questions have to be answered first.

Let's say you are someone who understands a hypothetical...

And as far as honesty goes, there's a woeful lack of it so far.  If you continue to play proselytizing games instead of responding with sincerity, you will earn nothing but disdain - and well deserve it.

QuoteYou said that ghost aren't visible so do you know if your hands can go through them if they aren't really visible?

This reply is akin to getting an example question on an exam - complete with question and answer - and then feebly scrawling the same answer in the margin.  In crayon.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 10:35:35 PM
The best evidence for God is the human being.

And a dove is evidence of a plane.  That's an equally sensible inference.  And the plane at least has the good sense to be a part of our universe to be examined.  :P

QuoteYou will never have physical evidence of God itself.

This would have been an opportune thing to say when you claimed to have evidence.

Also, you seem to bounce back and forth on this question quite a bit - complete certitude to ironclad skepticism.  Do you need a minute to think it over?  Or a minute to get your story straight?  Please, take your time.  It is far better to say something intelligent an hour late than to say something foolish in haste.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 02, 2020, 11:21:41 PM
The human being is the product of billions of years of evolution. We are extremely specialized primates, whose survival has become dependent on cooperation and the use of tools. That's it.

Yes, animal/physical evolution did happen. But the human being is far beyond mere animal evolution and that is evident  with what the human can do and accomplish.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 02, 2020, 11:17:24 PM
Okay. Let me put it this way. Do you believe that God actively interacts with the universe, or that he's a silent observer? If the former, then he can be studied. If the latter, then we might as well not even have a god.

Technically God can do any thing He wants, He's beyond the physical universe, He has no beginning and He has no end.

But normally and usually, God interacts with the universe though His names and attributes and through His Manifestations.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 11:21:56 PM
Let's say you are someone who understands a hypothetical...

And as far as honesty goes, there's a woeful lack of it so far.  If you continue to play proselytizing games instead of responding with sincerity, you will earn nothing but disdain - and well deserve it.

I'm being totally honest. Matter of fact I believe that in conversations like this we need to be honest.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 11:21:56 PMThis reply is akin to getting an example question on an exam - complete with question and answer - and then feebly scrawling the same answer in the margin.  In crayon.

I kinda don't understand???

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 11:44:18 PM
Yes, animal/physical evolution did happen. But the human being is far beyond mere animal evolution and that is evident  with what the human can do and accomplish.

No. That is not apparent. You're using your human bias to assume what makes your own species unique makes you better than the rest of nature. As has already been pointed out, plants and animals can both do things that we are incapable of doing. But the superior traits of other species don't matter to you, because you assign more importance to our specialties. If humanity were to go extinct, whether due to climate change, nuclear war, or some other factors, and another intelligent species were to evolve to replace us, they would likely create gods in their image just as we created gods in ours.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 11:44:18 PM
Yes, animal/physical evolution did happen. But the human being is far beyond mere animal evolution and that is evident  with what the human can do and accomplish.

That's a hell of a claim to make.  Let's see if you can support it.

What exact traits do humans have that couldn't have been a product of evolution?

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 11:34:29 PM
And a dove is evidence of a plane.  That's an equally sensible inference.  And the plane at least has the good sense to be a part of our universe to be examined.  :P
This would have been a opportune thing to say when you claimed to have evidence.

But the plane is not God. And maybe it should have been like: the plane is evidence of the bird because the bird displays more qualities than the plane.
But the thing is this: the human being displays "all" of the qualities of God at the "highest" level. The human being is the most perfect of all creation.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 11:34:29 PMAlso, you seem to bounce back and forth on this question quite a bit - complete certitude to ironclad skepticism.  Do you need a minute to think it over?  Or a minute to get your story straight?  Please, take your time.  It is far better to say something intelligent an hour late than to say something foolish in haste.

You know what, that last part is very good advise.
I do try to be careful a time my time. I just don't want you to think I left the forum.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 07:14:00 PM
Just to be clear, what is telepathy?

The ability to read minds and communicate purely through thought with another being.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 10:14:10 PM
I said that we can never know God "fully" or "completely".
And that the human being is the greatest sign, evidence and proof of the existence of God.

But it's actually good that you asked me that.
Let me tell you where I got this knowledge from.

I know that I talked about how the human being is the best evidence of God and that that the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. But there are beings that are on a higher level than the regular human being. These beings are known as the Prophets / Messengers of God.

The Prophets / Messengers [or what we know them as Manifestations in the baha'i scriptures] can display all of tthe names and attributes of God at the highest level "perfectly".
So if you "really" want to know God, the "absolute" best to do that is to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations of God. And Baha'u'llah is the latest of these Messengers.

Baha'u'llah says in the Kitáb-i-íqán:
"And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest".

The human being is soddy evidence for a god, being so shitty in supposed design. A mere human is able to come up with better designs on a whim, yet a god cannot. This was the point I was making in the first place. We're not "perfect" in any sense of the word, prophets included.


Besides, we have better explanations as to how we got here through the sciences than any religious scripture is able to conjure.

5 pages of bullshit, and I never noticed this thread until now.

Quote from: SGOS on January 03, 2020, 08:44:31 AM
5 pages of bullshit, and I never noticed this thread until now.

How so?

I admit I'm having a hard time understanding this particular argument.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2020, 09:04:33 PM
And the fact that this is the angle of approach is very telling.  God is something that is absolutely in evidence when claiming that he exists, but nowhere to be found - outside our universe apparently - when it comes to actually substantiating that rather bold claim.  How suspiciously convenient for the believer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrAf-O_L-08

Whether you call it a prophet or a manifestation, anyone who claims to speak for God is dangerous as hell.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 11:44:18 PM
Yes, animal/physical evolution did happen. But the human being is far beyond mere animal evolution and that is evident  with what the human can do and accomplish.

What exactly, has the human animal done that reflects any god?  What do you mean by humans being beyond evolution?  I'd suggest humans are totally shaped by evolution and nothing else.  Your god is no different than any other gods--none of them exist.  Your proof is totally lacking.

This one seems to be another that will talk a lot without ever saying anything.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 02, 2020, 11:44:18 PM
Yes, animal/physical evolution did happen. But the human being is far beyond mere animal evolution and that is evident  with what the human can do and accomplish.

An optimistic POV.  Atheists are usually pessimists.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 03, 2020, 12:55:23 AM
The ability to read minds and communicate purely through thought with another being.

Unnecessary for Moms.  They have eyes in the back of their heads, and feminine intuition.  Dads and men are clueless.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 03, 2020, 06:43:26 PM
This one seems to be another that will talk a lot without ever saying anything.

Lack of direct experience, scripture and talking points are weak.  Would you believe a Mom who had a baby, to know about that, or some INCEL?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 03, 2020, 06:02:39 PM
What exactly, has the human animal done that reflects any god?  What do you mean by humans being beyond evolution?  I'd suggest humans are totally shaped by evolution and nothing else.  Your god is no different than any other gods--none of them exist.  Your proof is totally lacking.

Ibis headed Thoth will make sure you fail Egyptian Last Judgement ;-)

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 03, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I admit I'm having a hard time understanding this particular argument.

Usual fighting talking points.  Entertainment for the usual locals.

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 03, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I admit I'm having a hard time understanding this particular argument.

P1) God exists
P2) God created humans
P3) Humans exist
Conclusion: God exists

Quote from: od19g6 on January 03, 2020, 12:33:27 AMThe human being is the most perfect of all creation.

Consider the source, lol.  Of course a human would say that humans are the most perfect of all.

I wonder, would crabs or ducks or dolphins or elephants agree with that statement?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 03, 2020, 06:43:26 PM
This one seems to be another that will talk a lot without ever saying anything.

Hi everyone.
I'll start back answering you all questions tomorrow.
Hang tight.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:41:25 PM
P1) God exists
P2) God created humans
P3) Humans exist
Conclusion: God exists

Cause/effect ... primitive metaphysics.  In Eternity, there is no time.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
Consider the source, lol.  Of course a human would say that humans are the most perfect of all.

I wonder, would crabs or ducks or dolphins or elephants agree with that statement?

Xenophanes 2500 years ago ... animals would make gods in their own image.  Your point is very old.  It led Xenophanes to monotheism, not atheism.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:41:25 PM
P1) God exists
P2) God created humans
P3) Humans exist
Conclusion: God exists

Can't argue with iron clad arguments like that.

Quote from: SGOS on January 04, 2020, 08:27:37 AM
Can't argue with iron clad arguments like that.

Theologians admit, all theological arguments are circular.

What is the alternative?

1. mutually independent axioms what don't contain their own conclusions (no circularity)
2. deduce theorems from those independent axioms

Example ... Euclidean geometry.  Another example, Spinoza's natural deductive theology ...

"Spinoza wrote his Ethics (1677) in mathematico-deductive form, with definitions, axioms, and derived theorems. His metaphysics, which is simultaneously monistic, pantheistic, and deistic, holds that there is only one substance, that this one substance is God, and that God is the same as the world."

Assuming one accepts axioms, and there is no error in the deductions (and those can be corrected anyways) then the conclusions follow.

Why doesn't this work as intended?  People believe axioms based on emotion, the axioms aren't independent of each other, deduction is deliberately done in error, to get the results desired.  Basically .. it comes down to semantics, and how your semantics (meaning of words) fits into your predetermined world view.  Redefine words at will if necessary.  Human beings are not fit to do anything, not even Euclidean geometry.  Because we are monkeys, not Vulcans.

Admitting I am a monkey, and not a Vulcan, I chose to redefine words as necessary.  For example "demi-god".  Having redefined "demi-god" to get the emotionally satisfying conclusion I want, QED.  aka I am a demi-god.  And that solves the atheism question for me, if not the question "of what G-d am I part of?".

Why do people come to atheist boards to talk about their God? Don't they know what the word "atheist" means?

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:41:25 PM
P1) God exists
P2) God created humans
P3) Humans exist
Conclusion: God exists

Ah, I see, yes, that does fit.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 01:20:31 PM
Why do people come to atheist boards to talk about their God? Don't they know what the word "atheist" means?

Theists typically come here for one of four reasons:

1. To troll.

2. To proselytize to us heathens.

3. To satisfy a desire to justify their preconceived ideas, with no intention of ever changing their minds.

4. To challenge their own positions by seeking alternative view points, in an honest quest to discover if they're right or wrong.

The last is exceptionally rare. Some think they are doing #4, when they are really doing #3.

And then there's Baruch. I don't know what the Hell he's here for. lol

I sometimes think some of them come here to elicit rudeness from us, so they can play the victim to their theist buddies and talk about how horrible the atheists are.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
I sometimes think some of them come here to elicit rudeness from us, so they can play the victim to their theist buddies and talk about how horrible the atheists are.

I think that goes along with #3. I guess I could have worded it a little better, but it's hard to describe. It's like an adventure to them. They come here to duke it out with us, with no intention of having a fair, honest discussion, so they can feel smart and accomplished. They know they're not going to change any minds with their tired old arguments that we've heard a million times, but they do it for their own benefit. They evade questions they can't answer, and frequently miss the point, because their brains cannot handle the idea that they could be wrong.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 02:01:50 PM
I sometimes think some of them come here to elicit rudeness from us, so they can play the victim to their theist buddies and talk about how horrible the atheists are.

Hi everyone.

I apologize if it feels like my replys is late.
Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

So with that said let's get back to answering.

No one should be rude to anyone. I think that's one of the things that's wrong with the world, it has a lot of tribalism.
I think I would be correct to say most atheist want to know the truth, so I think that both atheists and theists have to be open minded and accept any truth no matter where it's from.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 03, 2020, 12:18:49 AM
No. That is not apparent. You're using your human bias to assume what makes your own species unique makes you better than the rest of nature. As has already been pointed out, plants and animals can both do things that we are incapable of doing. But the superior traits of other species don't matter to you, because you assign more importance to our specialties. If humanity were to go extinct, whether due to climate change, nuclear war, or some other factors, and another intelligent species were to evolve to replace us, they would likely create gods in their image just as we created gods in ours.

You're only thinking of the physical qualities of animals that make them superior. But you have to understand I'm not talking about the physical, I'm talking about the spiritual / divine qualities that the human being has and "only" the human being has those and manifest them to the physical world.

Like I already mentioned:

We are the only animal species that can develop highly advanced technology.

We are the only  animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 12:32:17 AM
That's a hell of a claim to make.  Let's see if you can support it.

What exact traits do humans have that couldn't have been a product of evolution?

We have the traits of God basically.

As I already mentioned:

We are the only animal species that can develop highly advanced technology.

We are the only  animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.

You say it's not about the physical, then you go on to mention nothing but physical stuff.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 03, 2020, 02:36:04 AM
The human being is soddy evidence for a god, being so shitty in supposed design. A mere human is able to come up with better designs on a whim, yet a god cannot. This was the point I was making in the first place. We're not "perfect" in any sense of the word, prophets included.


Besides, we have better explanations as to how we got here through the sciences than any religious scripture is able to conjure.

You're still not getting it.
It's not about the physical qualities, it's about the spiritual / divine qualities that only the human being has. And those are the names and attributes of God.

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 03, 2020, 10:55:46 AM
I admit I'm having a hard time understanding this particular argument.

It's quite simple.
We will never have physical evidence or understand God completely.
The only way to understand God is to know His names and attributes. And it is only with the human animal that these divine names and attributes are manifest to the physical world.

Yeah, I figured I was right. You talk a lot but say nothing at all.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 03, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
Whether you call it a prophet or a manifestation, anyone who claims to speak for God is dangerous as hell.

Guess what, "we all" speak for God. We are the most excellent and perfect creation in the universe.

Prove it.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 03, 2020, 06:02:39 PM
What exactly, has the human animal done that reflects any god?  What do you mean by humans being beyond evolution?  I'd suggest humans are totally shaped by evolution and nothing else.  Your god is no different than any other gods--none of them exist.  Your proof is totally lacking.

Well,

We are the only animal species that can develop highly advanced technology.

We are the only animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

These are far beyond just mere animal evolution.

And all of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 03, 2020, 12:55:23 AM
The ability to read minds and communicate purely through thought with another being.

Well I'll put it like this.
We do believe in legitimate psychic faculties that a human being may have.
But usually things like telepathy come to the fore in the next world.

Quote from: Baruch on January 03, 2020, 09:16:03 PM
Usual fighting talking points.  Entertainment for the usual locals.

I'm back answering questions.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:41:25 PM
P1) God exists
P2) God created humans
P3) Humans exist
Conclusion: God exists

You forgot to mention: God is not physical and unknowable physically.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 03, 2020, 09:44:05 PM
Consider the source, lol.  Of course a human would say that humans are the most perfect of all.

I wonder, would crabs or ducks or dolphins or elephants agree with that statement?

They do not even have the ability to agree or disagree with the statement.
And that's because of the fact that they are lower from of life
And there are not on the level of the human being.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 01:20:31 PM
Why do people come to atheist boards to talk about their God? Don't they know what the word "atheist" means?

Would you say that what atheist really mean is: anyone who doesn't believe in anything "supernatural"?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 04:44:17 PM
You say it's not about the physical, then you go on to mention nothing but physical stuff.

The physical stuff is the "manifestations" of the names and attributes of God.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 04:54:42 PM
Prove it.

Prove what?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 05:09:08 PM
Would you say that what atheist really mean is: anyone who doesn't believe in anything "supernatural"?

No, I expect there are atheists who don't believe in any gods (that's why they're atheists) but do believe in supernatural stuff. I don't, but others might.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 05:12:31 PM
The physical stuff is the "manifestations" of the names and attributes of God.

Which you still have yet to enunciate.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 05:16:37 PM
Which you still have yet to enunciate.

I can't be anymore clear.
We will never know and understand God completely, so that's the first thing that we have to keep in mind.
Second, we as human beings is the only animals that can display all of the divine names and attributes of God at the highest level.
Third those names and attributes of God are then manifested in the physical world.

The only beings that are officially higher than the human being are the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations of God.

OK, then how's this?

How can we recognize when those names and attributes are being manifested?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 05:35:38 PM
OK, then how's this?

How can we recognize when those names and attributes are being manifested?

Well if you've been kinda paying attention I mentioned some examples of the manifestations.
And those are:

We are the only animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.
You know in the bible it said God "created man in His image".
What that simply mean is that the human being can display all of the qualities of God. For example, God is known as "Creator" right, but guess what, the human being is a creator as well. You've heard of "the will of God" right, well guess what, the human being have a will as well. These are just some examples.

But I have to say. If you want to kick it up a notch and take it to the next level, the "greatest" "Manifestations" of God are the Prophets / Messengers that have come all though human history and evolution, and taught the human being divine education.

You can't build a city.

You can't build a state.

You can't build a country, or an entire civilization.

So what are you going on about?

Is God only in the collectivity of humanity?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 05:51:53 PM
Well if you've been kinda paying attention I mentioned some examples of the manifestations.
And those are:

We are the only animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

All of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.
You know in the bible it said God "created man in His image".
What that simply mean is that the human being can display all of the qualities of God. For example, God is known as "Creator" right, but guess what, the human being is a creator as well. You've heard of "the will of God" right, well guess what, the human being have a will as well. These are just some examples.

But I have to say. If you want to kick it up a notch and take it to the next level, the "greatest" "Manifestations" of God are the Prophets / Messengers that have come all though human history and evolution, and taught the human being divine education.

Your god is superfluous.

You're merely naming some descriptors humans came up with to justify your belief in a deity.

Rename the descriptors into anything else, and you have changed nothing, just like you've changed nothing about the stuff we call "cities", "states" & "countries".

But I reckon you won't be able to see the trees for the forest.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 06:00:44 PM
You can't build a city.

You can't build a state.

You can't build a country, or an entire civilization.

So what are you going on about?

Is God only in the collectivity of humanity?

We absolutely have done those things. We are actually standing in them.
Those things are just examples of the power that the human animal have to display the qualities of God and manifest them in the things that we see around us.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 06:48:44 PM
We absolutely have done those things. We are actually standing in them.
Those things are just examples of the power that the human animal have to display the qualities of God and manifest them in the things that we see around us.

Neither you nor I have done any of those things. Only collections of humans can do any of them.

So, again - does that mean God is only in the collective?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 04, 2020, 06:33:26 PM
Your god is superfluous.

You're merely naming some descriptors humans came up with to justify your belief in a deity.

Rename the descriptors into anything else, and you have changed nothing, just like you've changed nothing about the stuff we call "cities", "states" & "countries".

But I reckon you won't be able to see the trees for the forest.

Well, you can believe that if you want.

The human being is a noble creature by default, but you have to remember we're "animals" as well. So the human being has both an animal nature and a spiritual nature. We just have to take care not to let the animal nature take over.

That's where the Prophets / Messengers comes in. They are like rare divine Teachers that appears around about every 1000 years to bring humanity divine education and to fine tune the human being's spiritual reality.

Why can't God just tell all of us what he wants us to know? Why limit his messaging to a small number of people, whom the rest of us then have to believe are God's spokespersons?


That's just stupid. And you're stupid if you believe it.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 07:00:54 PM
Well, you can believe that if you want.

The human being is a noble creature by default, but you have to remember we're "animals" as well. So the human being has both an animal nature and a spiritual nature. We just have to take care not to let the animal nature take over.

That's where the Prophets / Messengers comes in. They are like rare divine Teachers that appears around about every 1000 years to bring humanity divine education and to fine tune the human being's spiritual reality.

Anyone that says they speak for god and believed to be so, have influence over other people.

Why can't god just speak to the people directly? Why the mouthpiece?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 07:05:41 PM
Why can't God just tell all of us what he wants us to now? Why limit his messaging to a small number of people, whom the rest of us then have to believe are God's spokespersons?


That's just stupid. And you're stupid if you believe it.

Well unbeliever, the truth is every human being is a spokesperson for God. We can have inspirations from God for the simple fact that the human is truly a spiritual being.

God doesn't "tell" human beings in human words, matter of fact words are far insignificant to even describe God. Just like it says in the qur'an: "there is nothing like unto Him".
This may be a shocker, every thing we say about God is wrong. God is beyond creation, beyond the physical universe, has no beginning and has no end, and God is beyond language.

The things that you hear in religion about God being all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. While all those are true, they're wrong at the same time. Those words pale in comparison of what God truly is. Those are just limited languages that is all we have to try and convey this thing that is God. Basically everything that we ever know about anything, God is "beyond that".

Like I said earlier to "absolutely" try and know God you have to know the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations of God.
These beings have a special type of inspiration from God that only happens around about every 1000 years, and when it happens they bring a whole new revelation to the world of humanity.

Those being are the Ones that the human beings get their divine education form. And they fine tune the spiritual reality that is in the human being.

Baha'u'llah says:
"And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the
transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven...
These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, they are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their
infallible grace and the sanctifying
breezes of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations".

Yeah, whatever. Go peddle your drivel to someone who gives a shit.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 07:54:27 PM
Here's a shocker, every thing we say about God is wrong.

Does that apply to you?

Guess you can leave then.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 04, 2020, 08:17:12 PM
Does that apply to you?

Guess you can leave then.

Did you read the context?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
Yeah, whatever. Go peddle your drivel to someone who gives a shit.

So I'm guessing you don't want the list?

I've been waiting for days for you to tell us what names and attributes you're referring to. I get tired of being given the run around.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 08:29:35 PM
Did you read the context?

Answer my question: Does it apply to you?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 08:38:07 PM
I've been waiting for days for you to tell us what names and attributes you're referring to. I get tired of being given the run around.

I already said I'll get the list, but I got kind of confused when you say take my views somewhere else.

So I kindly ask as a yes or no, would you like the list?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 04, 2020, 08:41:18 PM
Answer my question: Does it apply to you?

It applies to all physical thing, all creatures, and all languages. Like I said, even if you say God is all-knowing or all-powerful, even though those things are correct, at the same time they're ultimately wrong. God is far beyond the mere language of all-knowing or all-powerful. Those are just languages that we're just limited to to convey this thing that is God. We can only only use things that we know to describe and convey God. Even though God is beyond those.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 06:53:44 PM
Neither you nor I have done any of those things. Only collections of humans can do any of them.

So, again - does that mean God is only in the collective?

I have done a small thing ... typed this out.  A rock can't do that.  Atheists are materialists.  All things are rocks to them ;-)

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 07:05:41 PM
Why can't God just tell all of us what he wants us to know? Why limit his messaging to a small number of people, whom the rest of us then have to believe are God's spokespersons?


That's just stupid. And you're stupid if you believe it.

G-d doesn't bother with monkey people.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 08:04:30 PM
Yeah, whatever. Go peddle your drivel to someone who gives a shit.

I found it marginally interesting.  I think he is our first Bahai ;-)

od19, you only talk about the physical manifestation of your god.  And how humans are different than animals.  I would suggest there is no difference between humans and other animals.  Some animals can and do build cities--and states--and countries.  Many animals (maybe most) have languages.  Some sacrifice themselves for the better of the whole.  Some render aid to others of their species for no known reason other than it is the right thing to do. 

You make statements and don't back them up.  I don't think your statements are correct.  As an atheist, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will rise tomorrow.  Why?  because, in fact, it does not 'rise'; the Earth is spinning while rotating around the sun, which makes it seem that the sun is rising.  Knowing that, I don't 'believe' the sun will rise--I know it will. And if it doesn't, then I will rethink my position.  So, you see, beliefs just don't exist in my world of reasoning and critical thinking.  I think something is right or something is wrong.  I will, and have, changed  my mind when shown proof that I was wrong. 

I don't see any reasoning in what you write.  You make statements with no proof, and expect me to simply buy into what you assert.  I reject as being wrong all of your statements.  You believe (is accepting a notion without the need of proof of any kind) god is---I think god is not and never was.  Why do you believe that?  (I suspect it is because it is so much easier to believe rather than look for proof and apply critical thinking)

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 04, 2020, 09:46:55 PM
od19, you only talk about the physical manifestation of your god.  And how humans are different than animals.  I would suggest there is no difference between humans and other animals.  Some animals can and do build cities--and states--and countries.  Many animals (maybe most) have languages.  Some sacrifice themselves for the better of the whole.  Some render aid to others of their species for no known reason other than it is the right thing to do. 

You make statements and don't back them up.  I don't think your statements are correct.  As an atheist, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will rise tomorrow.  Why?  because, in fact, it does not 'rise'; the Earth is spinning while rotating around the sun, which makes it seem that the sun is rising.  Knowing that, I don't 'believe' the sun will rise--I know it will. And if it doesn't, then I will rethink my position.  So, you see, beliefs just don't exist in my world of reasoning and critical thinking.  I think something is right or something is wrong.  I will, and have, changed  my mind when shown proof that I was wrong. 

I don't see any reasoning in what you write.  You make statements with no proof, and expect me to simply buy into what you assert.  I reject as being wrong all of your statements.  You believe (is accepting a notion without the need of proof of any kind) god is---I think god is not and never was.  Why do you believe that?  (I suspect it is because it is so much easier to believe rather than look for proof and apply critical thinking)

Same as a groundhog?  Will you see your shadow on Groundhog Day, Mike CL? ;-)  People here are mostly sharks.  Some theists like to skinny dip in the shark tank (scene from Dr No).

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 09:29:57 PM
It applies to all physical thing, all creatures, and all languages. Like I said, even if you say God is all-knowing or all-powerful, even though those things are correct, at the same time they're ultimately wrong. God is far beyond the mere language of all-knowing or all-powerful. Those are just languages that we're just limited to to convey this thing that is God. We can only only use things that we know to describe and convey God. Even though God is beyond those.

That's a contradiction in terms, another Catch-22 too.

You say we can't know god, yet you profess knowledge of a god. Can't you see how this contradiction makes any claim you later profess to know about it will nullify it?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 04, 2020, 09:46:55 PM
od19, you only talk about the physical manifestation of your god.  And how humans are different than animals.  I would suggest there is no difference between humans and other animals.  Some animals can and do build cities--and states--and countries.  Many animals (maybe most) have languages.  Some sacrifice themselves for the better of the whole.  Some render aid to others of their species for no known reason other than it is the right thing to do. 

You make statements and don't back them up.  I don't think your statements are correct.  As an atheist, I don't 'believe' in anything.  I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know it will rise tomorrow.  Why?  because, in fact, it does not 'rise'; the Earth is spinning while rotating around the sun, which makes it seem that the sun is rising.  Knowing that, I don't 'believe' the sun will rise--I know it will. And if it doesn't, then I will rethink my position.  So, you see, beliefs just don't exist in my world of reasoning and critical thinking.  I think something is right or something is wrong.  I will, and have, changed  my mind when shown proof that I was wrong. 

I don't see any reasoning in what you write.  You make statements with no proof, and expect me to simply buy into what you assert.  I reject as being wrong all of your statements.  You believe (is accepting a notion without the need of proof of any kind) god is---I think god is not and never was.  Why do you believe that?  (I suspect it is because it is so much easier to believe rather than look for proof and apply critical thinking)

That's fine, you're welcome to disagree.

Just to make it clear, I'm not here to try and so call convert someone, matter of fact I think it's impossible. It's up to the person to investigate the information.

I'm just here to kindly give my perspective and have a conversation with you all.

You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely know nor have physical evidence of God.

The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

Remember animal can display the names and attributes of God as well. The thing is though that they can only display some of them and can only manifest them on a low level. It is only the human being that can display them to the highest.

This is all we have to work with in terms of God.

Quote from: Baruch on January 04, 2020, 09:51:04 PM
Same as a groundhog?  Will you see your shadow on Groundhog Day, Mike CL? ;-)  People here are mostly sharks.  Some theists like to skinny dip in the shark tank (scene from Dr No).

I see you are making the usual amount of sense for you--zero. 

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 05:05:59 PM
They do not even have the ability to agree or disagree with the statement.
And that's because of the fact that they are lower from of life
And there are not on the level of the human being.

Actually, that depends on what animals we're talking about. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and have proven to be capable of much more complex thought than originally assumed. They are our distant cousins, after all, so it makes sense they'd have similar abilities to communicate through language.

Funny thing is when an ape is raised in captivity, they begin to associate themselves with humans instead of their own species. Try to unite them with others of their kind, and they're like, "Get this wild animal away from me!" And they're not far off, either. We and other apes are not very different. We just happened to evolve more intelligence than the rest, which kickstarted our dominance over nature. There's nothing divine about our attributes. We just have bigger, more efficient brains.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 04, 2020, 11:11:18 PM
I see you are making the usual amount of sense for you--zero.

OK ... so you are a killer whale ...

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 04:23:39 PM
Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

I love wilderness.  I love it as much as you love your faith.  We can have that pissing match later, but I simply love it more than anything.  I don't talk about it here, because wilderness has no more to do with atheism than your faith.  So the question about why you are here puzzles me.  I don't think you are telling the whole truth.  Your love of Jesus is no more relevant than my love of wild places.  I have no desire to go to one of the many Christian sites and hawk my love of wilderness, much less the fact that I am an atheist.  No one in a Christian forum would care.  I think you are here for reasons you are not disclosing, because loving your faith is quite irrelevant.  Good for you, I guess, but I'm not interested one bit.

Quote from: Baruch on January 05, 2020, 04:55:06 AM
OK ... so you are a killer whale ...

Notice my avatar picture--that's what I am.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 11:09:39 PM
That's fine, you're welcome to disagree.

Just to make it clear, I'm not here to try and so call convert someone, matter of fact I think it's impossible. It's up to the person to investigate the information.

I'm just here to kindly give my perspective and have a conversation with you all.

You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God.

The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

Remember animal can display the names and attributes of God as well. The thing is though that they can only display some of them and can only manifest them on a low level. It is only the human being that can display them to the highest.

This is all we have to work with in terms of God.

All your verbiage is great--but empty.  You say "You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God."  This is the kind of statement you theists love to say.  But there is no there, there.  It's empty.  What does it mean?  How do you know we can never completely know god??  What in our world demonstrates that any god even exists?  If your god created the universe, would that not be physical evidence?  And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????  What attributes of god can animals exhibit?  What are some of the attributes of your god, btw?????  What is the difference between demonstrating a low level of attributes and a high level?  How would one know?  Give me some substance to work with, not just empty air.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 11:09:39 PM
You always have to remember the first premise: we will never completely known nor have physical evidence of God.

Agreed, and this is why no one should be surprised that atheists do not believe any gods exist.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 11:09:39 PM
The only thing we got is the names and attributes manifested in the physical world. Everything revolves around that because that's all we know.

You realize that here you're asserting that your god for whom there is no "physical evidence" has a physical effect on the real world?  That means that if there would be physical evidence for its existence, if it existed.  You can't have it both ways.

If a god exists and has an effect on physical reality, that effect should be measurable and directly attributable to it and no other cause.

If a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.

Also, neither names nor attributes mean anything in an evidentiary way.  They're just labels we use to denote concepts, physical and otherwise.  Naming a thing does not give it physical reality, unless you wish to assert that centaurs and interstellar jump drives exist.  Having the attribute of being a perfect gas or being frictionless does not mean perfect gases and frictionless surfaces exist.

QuoteWhen my son survived an auto accident I did not thank god.  I thanked Honda.

--Author unknown

Gods are the leftover detritus of humanity's primitive origins.  They are no longer needed.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 06:00:44 PM
You can't build a city.

You can't build a state.

You can't build a country, or an entire civilization.

So what are you going on about?

Is God only in the collectivity of humanity?

That actually has some plausibility.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 04:59:17 PM
Well I'll put it like this.
We do believe in legitimate psychic faculties that a human being may have.
But usually things like telepathy come to the fore in the next world.

Alright then, I'll take it. We could go on for a long time otherwise, it seems.

QuoteWell this is not about being vocally superior. We already know that animals have superior vocal attributes. But the telepathy of the human being is far superior than the animal. We are the greatest and most perfect creation in terms of our telepathy. Even though physically we are animals as well, our telepathic abilities are far beyond the mere animal and we can manifest interthought-communication at the fullest.

Man, that took a while.

Your original message, which I tweeked here, makes just as much sense to me, given it's also purely asserted and asserts the existance of the spiritual reality just as much as telepathy.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 04, 2020, 08:38:07 PM
I've been waiting for days for you to tell us what names and attributes you're referring to. I get tired of being given the run around.

Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 04, 2020, 10:02:25 PM
That's a contradiction in terms, another Catch-22 too.

You say we can't know god, yet you profess knowledge of a god. Can't you see how this contradiction makes any claim you later profess to know about it will nullify it?

Well, ultimately the knowledge and teachings comes form the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations. They are the Ones that are the supreme ambassadors of God and they're the Ones that brings divine education to the human being in every age.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 05, 2020, 02:23:02 AM
Actually, that depends on what animals we're talking about. Gorillas have been taught sign language, and have proven to be capable of much more complex thought than originally assumed. They are our distant cousins, after all, so it makes sense they'd have similar abilities to communicate through language.

Funny thing is when an ape is raised in captivity, they begin to associate themselves with humans instead of their own species. Try to unite them with others of their kind, and they're like, "Get this wild animal away from me!" And they're not far off, either. We and other apes are not very different. We just happened to evolve more intelligence than the rest, which kickstarted our dominance over nature. There's nothing divine about our attributes. We just have bigger, more efficient brains.

Well the key word you just said was "taught."
You have to understand that no really impressive "human like" thing that the animal does can ever be done unless the human being is teachings them. This is another case of the human being have dominion over the animal.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 05:13:24 PM
Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?

I couldn't care less, since you'll never make any more sense than you have so far, which is none at all. I'm not going to beg you to feed me bullshit.

So, you think humans can learn to talk without being taught? Do some research on feral children you'll see that that is not the case.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:43:05 AM
Notice my avatar picture--that's what I am.

You animal you ;-)  And speciesist.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMHow do you know we can never completely know god??

Ultimately because that what the Manifestations of God says and plus God is beyond everything that we ever know in the physical world.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat in our world demonstrates that any god even exists?

The best demonstration of God in this world is the human being itself.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMIf your god created the universe, would that not be physical evidence?

You can take that as evidence. But like I said as far as I understand the scriptures, the very best evidence of God is the human being itself.

And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????[/quote]
God is the uncreated and is beyond everything that we know in the physical universe.

Let me try a give a painting analogy:

The painting and the painter is obviously different. The world of the painting can have many things in it, landscapes, mountains, animals. But the thing is, even though the painting has those things, they are made of certain elements that are just on the painting. Eventhough the reality is that there were a creator of the painting and the painter himself is made of different elements than the painting. "The painter is outside of the universe of the painting" even though the painter can control everything that's in the painting. And the things that are in the painting may not believe there is something besides the world of the painting.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat attributes of god can animals exhibit?

They can definitely display some of the names and attributes of God. But they do it on a low level.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat are some of the attributes of your god, btw?????

Would you like a list?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AMWhat is the difference between demonstrating a low level of attributes and a high level?  How would one know?

That's a good question. We actually sees it all around us in comparison with animals and human beings. But hang tight, I'll find specifics for you.

Quote from: Minimalist on January 05, 2020, 02:02:48 PM
Gods are the leftover detritus of humanity's primitive origins.  They are no longer needed.

With AI, humans are the leftover detritus of monkey shit.  No longer needed ;-)  Skynet did nothing wrong.

Because Skynet didn't exist, it could do nothing wrong.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 06:41:11 PM
Because Skynet didn't exist, it could do nothing wrong.

The Internet "you" is as much fiction as Schwartzenegger robot character.  You are a "crisis actor" in real life I think.  Got Soros?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 05:29:31 PM
So, you think humans can learn to talk without being taught? Do some research on feral children you'll see that that is not the case.

I would try and answer your question unbeliever, but you just said that you can care less. Yet you keep coming back replying.

Yeah, well, remember that you came to us to peddle your malarky, we didn't come to you to peddle our malarky. So you have no right at all to comment on my comments. This is where I come to talk to people who don't have belief in gods, and yet here you are talking stupid shit about a stupid god, invading my space.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PM
Agreed, and this is why no one should be surprised that atheists do not believe any gods exist.

Maybe so. Even though you still have to discern what the so called "gods" are being talked about.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMYou realize that here you're asserting that your god for whom there is no "physical evidence" has a physical effect on the real world?  That means that if there would be physical evidence for its existence, if it existed.  You can't have it both ways.

Yes, I'm talking about the "physical manifestations" of the names and attributes that's in the physical world.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMIf a god exists and has an effect on physical reality, that effect should be measurable and directly attributable to it and no other cause.

Well the human being is measurable?

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMIf a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.

Could you explain that a little bit more?

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 12:24:05 PMAlso, neither names nor attributes mean anything in an evidentiary way.  They're just labels we use to denote concepts, physical and otherwise.  Naming a thing does not give it physical reality, unless you wish to assert that centaurs and interstellar jump drives exist.  Having the attribute of being a perfect gas or being frictionless does not mean perfect gases and frictionless surfaces exist.

Well like I keep saying there is no "physical reality" of God, only physical "manifestations" of God

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2020, 06:54:00 PM
Yeah, well, remember that you came to us to peddle your malarky, we didn't come to you to peddle our malarky. So you have no right at all to comment on my comments. This is where I come to talk to people who don't have belief in gods, and yet here you are talking stupid shit about a stupid god, invading my space.

Well, I was assuming you were replying to me. And I guess your right, I don't have to comment on your comment.
So I guess with that, have a good one.

I'll just try and answer other comments.

No you won't you'll just keep spouting bullshit, vague, nonsensical assertions.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 05:13:24 PM
Hi.
I don't know did I ever catch your exact answer or not, but would you like the list of the names and attributes of God?

Yes or no?

yes

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 06:38:55 PM
Ultimately because that what the Manifestations of God says and plus God is beyond everything that we ever know in the physical world.
The best demonstration of God in this world is the human being itself.
You can take that as evidence. But like I said as far as I understand the scriptures, the very best evidence of God is the human being itself.

And if your god is outside the universe, what created your god?  Or the god that created your god; or the god that created the god that created your god????
God is the uncreated and is beyond everything that we know in the physical universe.

Let me try a give a painting analogy:

The painting and the painter is obviously different. The world of the painting can have many things in it, landscapes, mountains, animals. But the thing is, even though the painting has those things, they are made of certain elements that are just on the painting. Eventhough the reality is that there were a creator of the painting and the painter himself is made of different elements than the painting. "The painter is outside of the universe of the painting" even though the painter can control everything that's in the painting. And the things that are in the painting may not believe there is something besides the world of the painting.
They can definitely display some of the names and attributes of God. But they do it on a low level.
Would you like a list?
That's a good question. We actually sees it all around us in comparison with animals and human beings. But hang tight, I'll find specifics for you.

Would I like a list?  You bet ya--yep.  And I'm hanging tight.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Maybe so. Even though you still have to discern what the so called "gods" are being talked about.

No I don't.  I simply accept physical reality as it presents itself.  You're the one asserting that a god exists, it's entirely your responsibility to demonstrate it concretely and factually.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Yes, I'm talking about the "physical manifestations" of the names and attributes that's in the physical world.

Then you're explaining nothing.  "Schmetterling", "papillon", "farfalle" and "butterfly" tell you absolutely naught about the creature under discussion, even though they are all names for the same general thing.  Words are completely human constructs; they are not dictated from on high.

I don't care about names, I care about definitions and measurements and verifiability.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Well the human being is measurable?

That depends entirely on what you're measuring and how you're measuring it.  Remember, to be evidence, it must be clearly defined, repeatable, and not explained by any other means.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM

Quote from: trdsf
If a god exists and its effects on physical reality cannot be differentiated from natural causes, that cannot be differentiated from a state where no god exists.

Could you explain that a little bit more?

If you can't tell a natural cause from a supernatural cause, you cannot use it to assert a supernatural cause exists.

A rainbow appears in the sky.  I explain how it's caused by the internal reflection of light within water droplets of a certain size and how the position of the sun is responsible for the apparent height of the rainbow.  Someone else says 'god made it appear'.  Which one can you take into the lab and test -- actually, you don't even need a lab, just a garden hose and a sunny day.

Which one usefully and verifiably explains all manifestations of the phenomenon, and which one is an unverifiable assertion with no explanatory power that can be checked independently?

In the entire history of humankind, every mysterious event that has been explained, has been explained in terms of verified and verifiable natural causes.  Never once in the entire history of human inquiry has a mysterious event had a verified supernatural explanation: not 'very very rarely', never.

We can safely say that we have no cause to look to the supernatural for explanations, and until and unless anyone can finally demonstrate the supernatural, we have no cause to give such claims any merit.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 07:18:24 PM
Well like I keep saying there is no "physical reality" of God, only physical "manifestations" of God

And if they manifest in the physical world, then there is by definition a physical reality, and if there is a physical reality, then it is by definition observable and measurable.  You can't get around that by defining your god concept as being in the real world but not of it.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 04, 2020, 04:54:54 PM
Well,

We are the only animal species that can develop highly advanced technology.

We are the only animal species that can build a city.

We are the only animal species that can build an entire state.

We are the only animal species that canbuild whole countries and entire civilizations.

And I'll tell you this: we are the only animal species that can the animal/nature go into orbit/space travel.

These are far beyond just mere animal evolution.

And all of those things are manifestations of the divine reality that only the human being has.
We are basically manifesting God to the physical world.

Okay, I'll bite.  What in the seven hells does tool-making have to do with God existing?

If humans could spit acid, would you cite that as evidence for God?  Aren't you, in effect, just listing stuff that humans do really well that most other animals don't and tacking God on top of that?  Nevermind all that for the moment.

Let's go back ten million years or so.  Primates exist.  No advanced technology exists.  (Except A/C in termite mounds, but that apparently doesn't count, while human A/C does for some reason)  So...in this technology-barren world, does God exist?  I ask because you cite technology as evidence of God, so its negation must logically be the other's negation, right?

At the most basic level, I am asking if you actually believe your own argument or if it's just an argument you're using that sounds good to you and you figure that because it sounds good to you, your audience (atheists) will find it compelling.

Quote from: trdsf on January 05, 2020, 11:54:20 PMIf you can't tell a natural cause from a supernatural cause, you cannot use it to assert a supernatural cause exists.

Right.  And that's why anyone with an IQ above room temperature (in celsius) tends to be pretty skeptical about some random thing attributed to a god or spirit or some other supernatural being.

Not only have we collectively been through this sort of thing a million times and *spoiler alert* the supernatural explanation has always been wrong.

But also because we can never totally rule out a natural explanation.  The best case scenario for the believer is that this phenomenon is so baffling that it does not have a natural explanation ...yet.  That's a hell of a weak argument, even in the best case scenario.  And with this stunning revelation that something is unknown, the whole world is expected to fall to their knees and convert immediately.  What a bizarre, ego-driven expectation!

Quote from: SGOS on January 05, 2020, 05:45:51 AM
I love wilderness.  I love it as much as you love your faith.  We can have that pissing match later, but I simply love it more than anything.  I don't talk about it here, because wilderness has no more to do with atheism than your faith.  So the question about why you are here puzzles me.  I don't think you are telling the whole truth.  Your love of Jesus is no more relevant than my love of wild places.  I have no desire to go to one of the many Christian sites and hawk my love of wilderness, much less the fact that I am an atheist.  No one in a Christian forum would care.  I think you are here for reasons you are not disclosing, because loving your faith is quite irrelevant.  Good for you, I guess, but I'm not interested one bit.

Well, I just want to be correct on something. I'm not a christian, I'm actually baha'i.

Plus I want say don't worry, I'm not here to try and convert anyone, matter of fact, I think it's impossible. It's up to the person if they want to investigate more. To be honest with you, I just came on here to express my perspective on this thing that is known as the God. And if you really want to know, I just was curious to hear you all reactions on my perspective. That's all.

I love animals as well. And I think they are magnificent creatures. I was just talking about them in relation to the human being. That animals doesn't have a divine nature like we have. And we can display all the names and attributes of God at the highest level to the physical world.

I want to assure you that everything that I say, I trying to be totally honest about. There is no dishonesty going on. And I'm going to say right now, if it's something that I'm ask and I'm not sure about and don't know the answer to, I have know problem with saying: I don't know.

I hope you would at least hear my views.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 05, 2020, 08:09:45 PM
Would I like a list?  You bet ya--yep.  And I'm hanging tight.

Here you go.

Good human qualities:

Integrity
Courageousness
Honesty
Generosity
Loyalty
Perseverance
Respectfulness
Politeness
Responsibility
Kindness
Humility
Lovingness
Compassion
Optimism
Fairness
Reliability
Forgiveness
Conscientiousness
Authenticity
Self-discipline


Names and Attributes of God:

Abiding One
Adored
All-Abiding
All-Bountiful
All-Compelling
All-Glorious
All-Glorious Being
All-Glorious Lord
All-Hearing
All-Highest
All-Highest Throne
All-Informed
All-Knowing
All-Knowing Physician
All-Merciful
All-Perceiving
All-Pervading
All-Possessing
All-Powerful
All-Praised
All-Searching
All-Seeing
All-Subduing
All-Sufficing
All-Wise
Almighty
Ancient and Sovereign Lord of All
Ancient Beauty
Ancient Being
Ancient King
Ancient of Days
Ancient of Everlasting Days
Author
Bahá
Beauty
Beginning and End
Beloved
Beloved of All Things
Beloved of All Worlds
Beloved of Our Hearts
Beneficient
Benevolent
Best-Beloved
Best-Informed
Bird of Desire
Blissful
Breath
Central Orb of the Universe
Compassionate
Concealer
Concealer of Sins
Counsellor
Creator
Creator of All Names
Creator of the Earth and Heaven
Creator of the Heavens
Day Spring
Day Spring of Glory
Day Spring of the Spirit
Day Star
Day Star of Glory
Day Star of Unfading Glory
Daystar of Eternal Guidance
Deathless Beauty
Desire of All Nations
Desire of Every Understanding Heart
Desire of the World
Desired One
Divine and Infallible Physician
Divine Being
Divine Charmer
Divine Countenance
Divine Educator
Divine Essence
Divine King
Divine Ordainer
Divine Presence
Divine Spirit
Dominant
Educator
Educator of All Beings
Equitable
Essence of All Learning
Essence of Bounty
Essence of Loving Kindness
Eternal
Eternal Being
Eternal Essence
Eternal Essence of Essences
Eternal King
Eternal Lord
Eternal Truth
Ever-Abiding
Ever-Abiding God
Ever-Abiding Lord
Ever-Forgiving
Everlasting Beauty
Everlasting Candle
Everlasting King
Exalted
Exalted One
Expounder
Eye of Grandeur
Faithful
Faithful One
Faithful Spirit
Fashioner
Fashioner of All Created Things
Fashioner of the Heavens
FatherFinger of Holiness
First and Last
Forgiving
Generous One
Glorified
Glorified Countenance
Glorious
Glorious One
Glory
God
God of Mercy
Gracious
Grandeur
Great
Great Being
Great Giver
Guardian
Hand of Divine Power
Hand of Mercy
Hearts' Desire
Heaven of Generosity
Help in Peril
Highest and Last End
Him Who Causeth the Dawn to Break
Holy of Holies
Ideal King
Immortal Beauty
Immortal King
Inaccessible
Incomparable
Incomparable One
Incorruptible
Infinite Spirit
Inmost Essence
Innermost Spirit of Spirits
Invisible
Invisible Essence
Invisible of Invisibles
Invisible One
King
King of Divine Might
King of Everlasting Days
King of Existance
King of Glory
King of Incomparable Glory
King of Kings
King of Names
King of Names and Attributes
Knower
Knower of All Things
Knower of the Unseen and the Seen
Knower of Things Unseen
Knowledge
Life-Giver
Living God
Lode Star
Lord of All Beings
Lord of All Faiths
Lord of All Names
Lord of All Things
Lord of All Worlds
Lord of Bounty
Lord of Creation
Lord of Earth and Heaven
Lord of Eternity
Lord of Lords
Lord of Mankind
Lord of Men
Lord of Names
Lord of Revelation
Lord of the Day of Reckoning
Lord of the Easts and the Wests
Lord of the Exalted Throne
Lord of the Frequented Fane
Lord of the Glorious Throne
Lord of the Kingdom of Utterance
Lord of the Mighty Throne
Lord of Thy Fathers
Lord of Wealth
Lord the Most High
Loved One
Loving
Luminary
Majesty
Maker
Maker of the Heavens
Manifest
manifest and Sovereign Ruler
Merciful
Mercy
Mighty
Monarch of All Names
Most Bountiful
Most Bountiful of the Bountiful
Most Exalted
Most Exalted Being
Most Generous
Most Great
Most Great Beauty
Most Great Light
Most Great Spirit
Most High
Most Holy
Most Manifest
Most Merciful
Most Mighty King
Most Powerful
Mover
Mover of All Beings
MunificentMystic Source
Nightingale of Holiness
Object of All Adoration
Object of All Knowledge
Object of All Learning
Ocean of Everlasting Bounty
Ocean of mercy
Omnipotent
Omnipotent Avenger
Omnipotent Protector
Omniscient
One
One True God
One Who Heareth
Ordainer
Origin of All Things
Paradise
Peerless
Perspicuous
Possessor of All Created Things
Possessor of Infinite Names
Possessor of Names
Potent
Powerful
Praised
Primal Will
Promised One
Protector
Protector of the Doers of Good
Providence
Provider of All Means
Pure and Hidden One
Quickener
Quintessence of All Truth
Quintessence of Glory
Raiser from the Dead
Reckoner
Redeemer
Resplendent
Revealer
Rich
Root of Knowledge
Ruler
Ruler of All Nations
Ruler of Earth and Heaven
Ruler of the Day of Reckoning
Ruler of the Kingdom of Names
Ruler of the Universe
Sea of Seas
Seen and Hidden
Self-Subsisting
Self-Sufficient
Self-Sufficing
Slayer
Source of All Grace
Source of All Knowledge
Source of Divine Grace
Source of Divine Inspiration
Source of Eternal Light
Source of Everlasting Life
Source of Infinite Grace
Source of Power and Wisdom
Source of All Splendour
Sovereign Lord
Sovereign Lord of All
Sovereign Lord of Eternity
Sovereign Ordainer
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Revealer
Sovereign Truth
Spirit
Subtile
Summit
Sun of Truth
Supreme Being
Supreme Ordainer
Supreme Protector
Supreme Redeemer
Supreme Singleness
Sustainer
Tabernacle of Ancient Glory
Tabernacle of Majesty and Glory
The Great Announcement
Throne of Glory
Tongue of Grandeur
Tree of Life
True One
True Physician
Truth
Ultimate Desire
Unchangeable Being
Unchangeable Countenance
Unchangeable Essence
Unconditioned
Unconstrained
Uncreated
Undying Fire
Unfailing Protector
Unifier
Unknowable
Unknowable Essence
Unrestrained
Unseen
Unseen Beauty
Unseen Treasure
Visible and Invisible
Voice
Well-Beloved
Will
Wise
Wise One

Abider
Abiding
Adored
AllBounteous
AllBountiful
AllCompelling
AllForgiving
AllGenerous
AllGlorified
AllGlorious
AllHighest
Allinformed
AllKnowing
AllLoving
AllMerciful
AllPerceiving
AllPossessing
AllPowerful
AllPreserving
AllSeeing
Allsubduing
Allsufficing
AllWise
Almighty
Ancient
Announcer
Answerer
Assister
Attractor
Author
Beauteous
Benevolent
BestBeloved
Bestower
Bestowing
Bounteous
Bountiful
Changeless
Chastiser
Clement
Compassionate
Concealer
Concealing
Confirmer
Conqueror
Creator
Dayspring
Desired
Destroyer
Dispeller
Doer
Enchanter
Enkindler
Enrapture
EverAbiding
EverBestowing
EverBounteous
EverForgiving
EverGiving
Exalted
Expounder
Fashioner
Forgiver
Forgiving
Fountainhead
Generous
Giving
Glorious
Godhead
Gracious
Grandeur
Greatest
Healer
Healing
Hearing
Highest
Inaccessible
Incomparable
Invincible
Invoked
Knower
Lightgiver
Lordship
Magnanimous
Magnificent
Maker
Master
Merciful
Mighty
Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient
Onlooker
Ordainer
Ordaining
Pardoner
Patience
Peerless
Physician
Possessor
Powerful
Preserver
Protector
Provider
Remover
Revealer
Ruler
Savior
SelfSubsistent
SelfSubsisting
Source
Sovereign
Sublime
Succorer
Succoring
Sufficer
Sufficing
Supreme
Sustainer
Transcendent
Unconditioned
Unconstrained
Unfastener
Unfettered
Unfolder
Unlocker
Unsearchable
Untrammelled
Upraiser
Uprooter
WellBeloved

All of these qualities and in different areas of life, the human being can potentially display at a high level above all other creatures.


P.s. I hope this is the complete and authentic list. But is this all I have for now. I'll double check tomorrow.

Couldn't help but notice you jotted down all-knowing, all powerful and creator of the earth and the heavens there.

Do you believe in the power of prayer?
And do you believe that at any given time, someone can be doing something against God's will or intent?

Wow, od19,------now that is a list!!!  At least it is a long one.  And I did read it.  And you now what?  I am no closer to god now than before I read it.  Why?  Because your god, nor any god, is real.  Your god, like most others, are used by the few to control and influence the rest.  Simple. 

BTW, I did not see 'Evil' on your lists.  If your god did not create it, then why does it exist?  Why does your god allow it to exist? 

I assume you believe god created nature, right?  Have you observed nature?  Why does the spider have to torture the fly to death; eat it while it still lives?  Why do parasites infect newborns or why are unhealthy and deformed babies born daily?  What about nature do you see as perfect?  No two people are physically alike.  No two members of any species is exactly alike.  Even prior to man, species die out.  The world one day is not exactly like the world of any other day.  So, then your god is not perfect?  Anyway, nature actually reflects a system, not a creator; evolution.  Evolution does not insist upon perfection--only for the species to continue, while changing--if the changes are good, the species continues, if not, then the real possibility exists that it will die out.

To be honest, I see people like you who need to make up lists of things their god does as in need of a crutch to get through life.  The question of "Why" is too much for  them to bear, so they invent a bromide to cover that--god.  So, you need a crutch to face life--that's okay.  If you need it, use it.  But don't tell me what to think and how to act.  I know you are not in to that; so it's not really my business for me to tell you not to use your crutch.  Use it with joy!  What I resent are religious people of any religion that insists I believe as they do.

Quote
Good human qualities:

Integrity
Courageousness
Honesty
Generosity
Loyalty
Perseverance
Respectfulness
Politeness
Responsibility
Kindness
Humility
Lovingness
Compassion
Optimism
Fairness
Reliability
Forgiveness
Conscientiousness
Authenticity
Self-discipline

These are in short supply!

Quote from: od19g6 on January 05, 2020, 05:27:23 PM
Well the key word you just said was "taught."
You have to understand that no really impressive "human like" thing that the animal does can ever be done unless the human being is teachings them. This is another case of the human being have dominion over the animal.

Of course they're taught. All social species are taught behaviors by previous generations. That's why you can't just drop a zoo animal in the wild and expect it to survive. And once again, humans are no different in this scenario. Do you know a single person who speaks sign language who was not taught by someone else?

At least he didn't list all nine billion names of God!

https://urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html

Still nothing but words.  So you own a thesaurus, bully for you.

Not a letter of that ridiculously long (and internally contradictory) list is in any way evidence.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 06, 2020, 01:04:37 PM
Of course they're taught. All social species are taught behaviors by previous generations. That's why you can't just drop a zoo animal in the wild and expect it to survive. And once again, humans are no different in this scenario. Do you know a single person who speaks sign language who was not taught by someone else?

But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 06, 2020, 02:37:17 AM
Couldn't help but notice you jotted down all-knowing, all powerful and creator of the earth and the heavens there.

Do you believe in the power of prayer?
And do you believe that at any given time, someone can be doing something against God's will or intent?

Yes, I believe in the power of prayer.
God's will be done regardless of who is against it.

Quote from: Minimalist on January 06, 2020, 10:43:09 AM
These are in short supply!

I wonder why.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 06, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
Wow, od19,------now that is a list!!!  At least it is a long one.  And I did read it.  And you now what?  I am no closer to god now than before I read it.  Why?  Because your god, nor any god, is real.  Your god, like most others, are used by the few to control and influence the rest.  Simple. 

BTW, I did not see 'Evil' on your lists.  If your god did not create it, then why does it exist?  Why does your god allow it to exist? 

I assume you believe god created nature, right?  Have you observed nature?  Why does the spider have to torture the fly to death; eat it while it still lives?  Why do parasites infect newborns or why are unhealthy and deformed babies born daily?  What about nature do you see as perfect?  No two people are physically alike.  No two members of any species is exactly alike.  Even prior to man, species die out.  The world one day is not exactly like the world of any other day.  So, then your god is not perfect?  Anyway, nature actually reflects a system, not a creator; evolution.  Evolution does not insist upon perfection--only for the species to continue, while changing--if the changes are good, the species continues, if not, then the real possibility exists that it will die out.

To be honest, I see people like you who need to make up lists of things their god does as in need of a crutch to get through life.  The question of "Why" is too much for  them to bear, so they invent a bromide to cover that--god.  So, you need a crutch to face life--that's okay.  If you need it, use it.  But don't tell me what to think and how to act.  I know you are not in to that; so it's not really my business for me to tell you not to use your crutch.  Use it with joy!  What I resent are religious people of any religion that insists I believe as they do.

Well, the human being can use "anything" in the world for control and influence. It's just that some human beings have bad intentions and that's why that do it. That's why the legitimate Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations always comes to the world to teach divine education so the human being can be on the right spiritual path.

Well, evil is just the absence of good. In the same way that ignorance is the absence of knowledge or darkness is absence of light etc. But that doesn't mean that people actually don't experience evil. As you know, the human being is physically an animal as well, but we have a reality that's beyond the mere animal. We have the ability to display an ultimate thing called free will/choice. No other animal has the ability to display free will/choice like the human being does. And believe in or not, that's yet another sign the the human being has dominion over all other living things. The Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations has always taught that we have to be careful not to let our animal nature take over our spiritual nature, because when that happens that's when you see all these evil things that go on in the world.

Natural in not perfect, you know why, because it's physical. It is only the divine reality that has perfections. I believe it is the animal that has most of the bad qualities that exist in the world. That have good ones as well, but not nearly as much as the human being.

You know what, I don't mind that people have a crutch. The question is do that crutch has meaning and does that "crutch" helps you to be a more positive human being in the world?

Look, I'm baha'i,
And the flagship word of the baha'i faith is "unity."
It really doesn't matter what another human being believes in, as long as we respect each other as fellow human beings and believe is or not, that's all that matters to a baha'i. It just that simple.
That why we believe in the planetary unity of the human species. When the unity of humanity is firmly established the will world peace arrive.

Quote from: trdsf on January 07, 2020, 03:55:08 AM
Still nothing but words.  So you own a thesaurus, bully for you.

Not a letter of that ridiculously long (and internally contradictory) list is in any way evidence.

But as you know, we have to put our words into action, don't we.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Yes, I believe in the power of prayer.
God's will be done regardless of who is against it.

Then what's the point of said prayer?
God's will be done regardless. Right?

Also, what's the point of him creating people in such a way that, by his will, they are against his will?
Maybe it's cause i'm not allknowing, but I don't see the sense in that.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.

Once again totally wrong.  Well, mostly wrong.  But, you cannot teach me anything--and I mean from tying a shoelace to algebra--UNLESS I want to learn.  You are mostly wrong in that I can teach my dogs to sit--but they wanted to learn.  And I have learned much from my dogs over the years--unconditional love for instance.  Animals in the wild learn all the time.  When I was in grade school, I was told that humans were the only tool makers in all of creation.  Clearly that is not true--hundreds of species of animals use tools.  Humans ARE animals.  Period.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 07, 2020, 04:05:58 PM
Then what's the point of said prayer?
God's will be done regardless. Right?

Also, what's the point of him creating people in such a way that, by his will, they are against his will?
Maybe it's cause i'm not allknowing, but I don't see the sense in that.

Prayer exists to strengthen our divine / spiritual reality and to have communion with God. God can also answer the prayer of the individual.
The be honest with you really,  God's will is each Prophet / Messenger that He manifest and each revelation that comes in every age.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Yes, I believe in the power of prayer.
God's will be done regardless of who is against it.

Prayer is simply wishful thinking.  god's will is never done because god isn't.  Your wishful belief makes it seem so to you; but apparently you are willfully blind and ignorant.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:56:24 PM

Look, I'm baha'i,
And the flagship word of the baha'i faith is "unity."
It really doesn't matter what another human being believes in, as long as we respect each other as fellow human beings and believe is or not, that's all that matters to a baha'i. It just that simple.
That why we believe in the planetary unity of the human species. When the unity of humanity is firmly established the will world peace arrive.

Yeah, I know you are baha'i--caught that early on.  Yes, I agree with you in this last paragraph.  I understand that when humans include all cultures, colors and beliefs/thinking, then there will be peace.  But I don't need a fictional god to point that out. 

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 04:25:56 PM
Prayer exists to strengthen our divine / spiritual reality and to have communion with God. God can also answer the prayer of the individual.
The be honest with you really,  God's will is each Prophet / Messenger that He manifest and each revelation that comes in every age.

Making yourself feel better through supposedly talking to god is one thing. But him supposedly 'answering' prayer, is another thing entirely.
Either he changes his will, based on what you ask for.
Or he always intended to make it so.
Which implies he also willed you to ask for it so that he would 'answer' it.
Which also means he wills you to ask for things he doesn't answer or provide. Unless you claim that every prayer ever is answered.
Which would make that part of the whole prayer system rather asinine and ultimately pointless.

Omni-traits are a tricky thing, no?
Especially if you have the audacity to combine them.

Quote from: Peter O'Toole
When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.

You could think that, but you would be wrong.

I can easily imagine a scenario where an animal teaches a human some trick, intended or not.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 07, 2020, 04:49:01 PM
Making yourself feel better through supposedly talking to god is one thing. But him supposedly 'answering' prayer, is another thing entirely.
Either he changes his will, based on what you ask for.
Or he always intended to make it so.
Which implies he also willed you to ask for it so that he would 'answer' it.
Which also means he wills you to ask for things he doesn't answer or provide. Unless you claim that every prayer ever is answered.
Which would make that part of the whole prayer system rather asinine and ultimately pointless.

Omni-traits are a tricky thing, no?
Especially if you have the audacity to combine them.

Is kind of simple.
Technically God can do anything It wants. God is beyond the physical reality.

God can answer the prayer of the individual at any time and in any way.

God's will is mainly the divine revelations that come in every age throughout human history and evolution.

It's not really about someone "disrupting" God's will, it going to happen regardless.

It is nothing that the human being can ever do to offend or hurt God.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 07, 2020, 05:03:29 PM
You could think that, but you would be wrong.

I can easily imagine a scenario where an animal teaches a human some trick, intended or not.

Can you give an example?

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2020, 04:24:43 PM
Once again totally wrong.  Well, mostly wrong.  But, you cannot teach me anything--and I mean from tying a shoelace to algebra--UNLESS I want to learn.  You are mostly wrong in that I can teach my dogs to sit--but they wanted to learn.  And I have learned much from my dogs over the years--unconditional love for instance.  Animals in the wild learn all the time.  When I was in grade school, I was told that humans were the only tool makers in all of creation.  Clearly that is not true--hundreds of species of animals use tools.  Humans ARE animals.  Period.

We're more than just mere tool makers, we're civilization makers.

Yes, sometimes the animal doesn't want to learn but that not really the point.

The whole point is that the animal doesn't have the ultimate free will / free choice like we do and that as a whole the animal goes with the will of the human being.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:47:34 PM


The whole point is that the animal doesn't have the ultimate free will / free choice like we do and that as a whole the animal goes with the will of the human being.

You haven't been around animals much have you?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:47:34 PM
We're more than just mere tool makers, we're civilization makers.

Look up some of the huge civilizations ants have and are, creating.

Here's an article about the ant superorganism:


https://www.sciencealert.com/ants-respond-as-a-collective-superorganism-when-they-sense-a-predator

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:36:13 PM
Can you give an example?

Where do you think the inspiration for aircraft wings came from? From observing birds.

Where do you think the inspiration for optics came from? Animal eyes.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 05:33:25 PM
Is kind of simple.
Technically God can do anything It wants. God is beyond the physical reality.

God can answer the prayer of the individual at any time and in any way.

God's will is mainly the divine revelations that come in every age throughout human history and evolution.

It's not really about someone "disrupting" God's will, it going to happen regardless.

It is nothing that the human being can ever do to offend or hurt God.

The real question is, can god do something it, at any one point, doesn't want to? Can god change his mind/will and utilize his omnipotence accordingly? Is god free to make a choice  if he knows already everything that will be? If he can't does that not mean he is actually not omnipotent? And if he can, then technically his will can be disrupted.

And if, indeed, nothing can disrupt god's will, as I agree would be the case if he's the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything... Then does he not have a lot of crap to answer for? From distrust to deformation to disease. From parasites and perverts to scammers and stupidly pointless conversations?

We can not hurt god. We can not ask god to do anything he didn't always already want to do.
But god apparently can and does hurt us by deliberatly choosing to create a less than optimum world and design us in such a way that we, 100% according to his will and his bidding, suffer unfairly and treat one-another like crap.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2020, 04:34:17 PM
Yeah, I know you are baha'i--caught that early on.  Yes, I agree with you in this last paragraph.  I understand that when humans include all cultures, colors and beliefs/thinking, then there will be peace.  But I don't need a fictional god to point that out.

If you want to know, the job of the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations is to simply teach and let the human being know what they truly are, a spiritual beings.
And Baha'u'llah is the latest of these.

We will always have a choice to ether take it or leave it.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 07, 2020, 06:36:50 PM
The real question is, can god do something it, at any one point, doesn't want to? Can god change his mind/will and utilize his omnipotence accordingly? Is god free to make a choice  if he knows already everything that will be? If he can't does that not mean he is actually not omnipotent? And if he can, then technically his will can be disrupted.

And if, indeed, nothing can disrupt god's will, as I agree would be the case if he's the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything... Then does he not have a lot of crap to answer for? From distrust to deformation to disease. From parasites and perverts to scammers and stupidly pointless conversations?

We can not hurt god. We can not ask god to do anything he didn't always already want to do.
But god apparently can and does hurt us by deliberatly choosing to create a less than optimum world and design us in such a way that we, 100% according to his will and his bidding, suffer unfairly and treat one-another like crap.

You know, I kind of feel that you're trying to make all this in a way that says God is imperfect and that God has human qualities.

You all ways have to remember God is beyond the physical reality and like I mentioned earlier He's even beyond human terms like all-knowing, all-powerful etc. Those terms are correct only because we have no other way to express what this thing that is known as God is besides what we say in human words.

The human being is the greatest ambassador of God.
That's why the mystical thing is that whatever you want to know about God you have to know about the human being.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 06:39:13 PM
If you want to know, the job of the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations is to simply teach and let the human being know what they truly are, a spiritual beings.

We will always have a choice to ether take it or leave it.

Your prophets, messengers and manifestations are what honest people call 'snake-oil salesmen'--they are flim-flam men selling their fiction to the world--and apparently you are a buyer.  I'm not.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 06:58:42 PM
You know, I kind of feel that you're trying to make all this in a way that says God is imperfect and that God has human qualities.

You all ways have to remember God is beyond the physical reality and like I mentioned earlier He's even beyond human terms like all-knowing, all-powerful etc. Those terms are correct only because we have no other way to express what this thing that is known as God is besides what we say in human words.

The human being is the greatest ambassador of God.
That's why the mystical thing is that whatever you want to know about God you have to know about the human being.

Close, but not really. I'm trying to point out that it seems to me that 'the idea of what a god would be', tends to be intrinsicly impossible due to the assigned attributes being impossible to blend with one-another, let alone the whole of said attributes with the reality we experience around us.

But aside from that, do you not pick up on the blatant error in your own further assertions regarding the status of physical humans being the best proof of a metaphysical being? I mean, let alone the fact that you say that we can't even express what the hell this eternal ancient omnicreator would be... Let alone the fact that you admit that, if this supposed deity were to exist, any discription and comprehension that we might have of it would fall short.  Let alone the fact that this pityfull human form, infinitely less godly than the supposed god would be,  is the best way to understand god. Let all those points be, I don't even need them. Let's let the faulty logic slide for a second.
Let's for one second go with the idea that indeed revelations and prophets and humans as a whole are the best ambassador we could have... How could you even then claim we could even approximately come to understand god's will? That's ridiculous. If this god is indeed so far beyond our own way, you have no idea of what might be his will. Of what might be important to this being, so far beyond our comprehension? If you assume a being with infinite-knowledge or even with knowledge 'beyond the human concept of infinity', any finite experience or piece of evidence or whatever limited bullshit will always by default be insufficient to determien that being's will. I mean honestly, god could be a giant beetle-creature that created beetles and cockroaches in it's likeness and without a sense of morality, that simply planned for us to be there to provide food and feces for it's treasured, most perfect creations. Any prophet could be a ploy to test us, hoping for us to reject their teachings... With limited knowledge your guess would be as good as ours. You can't simultanously claim that we can't understand god and then that we can understand him well enough.

Rant over, sleep time.

Quote from Peter O'Toole

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 07, 2020, 04:58:15 PM
When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.

True, but I also talk to you ... and Peter O'Toole was the real Lawrence of Arabia too ...

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2020, 06:15:25 PM
Look up some of the huge civilizations ants have and are, creating.

Like bees, all run by horrible feminists ;-)

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 07, 2020, 06:32:25 PM
Where do you think the inspiration for aircraft wings came from? From observing birds.

Where do you think the inspiration for optics came from? Animal eyes.

More than just that.  Did Leonardo create Boeing?  Don't know any airplanes covered in feathers.  It was also aerodynamics, which came from maths and wind tunnels.

Optics was perfected by observing and dissecting humans.  Humans are animals.  QED.  See Ibn al-Haytham.

Humans ARE animals.

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 07, 2020, 09:23:49 PM
Humans ARE animals.

Optimist or pessimist, I can't tell.  But there are a lot of squid people on the Internet.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 04:03:35 PM
But as you know, we have to put our words into action, don't we.

That's a meaningless statement, and dodges the problem of mutually exclusive items in your list, as well as failing to provide evidence.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 07, 2020, 03:06:16 PM
But the grand point is that: animals can "never" teach humans while humans "always" teaches animals.

This is not strictly correct; we learn a great deal by studying animals.

If you want to take the position that 'teach' means actively imparting information, my cat has several noises and behaviors to tell me her needs. I didn't teach them to her; I had to learn from her, her ways to communicate.

All of this is pointless drivel anyways, that only operates within the confines of imagined importance.

What evidence do you have of any of this, @OP?

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 07, 2020, 09:23:49 PM
Humans ARE animals.

Yes, physical but not spiritually.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 08, 2020, 11:54:32 AM
All of this is pointless drivel anyways, that only operates within the confines of imagined importance.

What evidence do you have of any of this, @OP?

Evidence of what?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:28:56 PM
Yes, physical but not spiritually.

Ancient Egyptians would disagree ;-)

"let the human being know what they truly are, a spiritual beings" ... correct, but atheists have no soul.  Materialists don't believe in anything they can't see ... except for political ideology.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2020, 06:15:25 PM
Look up some of the huge civilizations ants have and are, creating.

You really can't say in all honesty ci, that a colony of ants is "just like" a human city. And a "civilization" of ants are "exactly" like the technology advanced societal civilization that human beings can create.

Quote from: Baruch on January 08, 2020, 03:31:55 PM
Ancient Egyptians would disagree ;-)

"let the human being know what they truly are, a spiritual beings" ... correct, but atheists have no soul.  Materialists don't believe in anything they can't see ... except for political ideology.

Of course we all know that every human being has the right to believe what they want to believe, or don't want to believe.

Why would the egyptians disagree?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:49:02 PM
Of course we all know that every human being has the right to believe what they want to believe.

Why would the egyptians disagree?

Animism wasn't alien to them.  Most of their gods had animal traits, not elementals like fire god, water god ... like the Greeks.  The Egyptians worshipped cats and jackals.  A definitely superior culture.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:41:15 PM
You really can't say in all honesty ci, that a colony of ants is "just like" a human city. And a "civilization" of ants are "exactly" like the technology advanced societal civilization that human beings can create.

E O Wilson (scientist) showed that insecticoid feminism is superior ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on January 08, 2020, 03:50:49 PM
Animism wasn't alien to them.  Most of their gods had animal traits, not elementals like fire god, water god ... like the Greeks.  The Egyptians worshipped cats and jackals.  A definitely superior culture.

What's a jackal? Is it like a hyena?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:28:56 PM
Yes, physical but not spiritually.

Unsupported assertion. You need to prove a spiritual side exists before you can claim this.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:30:23 PM
Evidence of what?

That these "manifestations" or whatever are more than just empty words. Where's your god?

Quote from: trdsf on January 08, 2020, 05:01:01 PM
Unsupported assertion. You need to prove a spiritual side exists before you can claim this.

Prove like what physically?
You will never have "physical proof" of the divine reality.
We will only know the names and attributes and they are manifested in the physical world.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 07:30:40 PM
Prove like what physically?

Anything that shows that god exists.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 07:30:40 PM
You will never have "physical proof" of the divine reality.

Then how is it possible to distinguish this from not existing, if there's no physical proof of it?

Even political ideologies have some grounding in reality. Yours is merely fantasy.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 07:30:40 PM
We will only know the names and attributes and they are manifested in the physical world.

How is this different from knowing the names and attributes of Spiderman?

There's equal amount of evidence of what you're proposing and Spiderman.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 08, 2020, 05:13:13 PM
That these "manifestations" or whatever are more than just empty words. Where's your god?

The manifestation that happens is the thing that brings these names and attributes to actual life in the physical world.

Because God is beyond the physical reality He's beyond time and place.
So like I said, the mystical thing is I we want to know any thing about what this thing that is called God, the first thing is to know the human being.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 07, 2020, 06:19:38 PM
Here's an article about the ant superorganism:


https://www.sciencealert.com/ants-respond-as-a-collective-superorganism-when-they-sense-a-predator

Here's a good video about the ant supercolony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqECNYmM23A

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 08, 2020, 03:52:08 PM
What's a jackal? Is it like a hyena?

It's like a big fox and lives in Asia and Africa.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:41:15 PM
You really can't say in all honesty ci, that a colony of ants is "just like" a human city. And a "civilization" of ants are "exactly" like the technology advanced societal civilization that human beings can create.

In all honesty I did not say it was 'just like' a human city.  Of course not, they are ants.  But the huge underground areas and tunnels are highly organized, and every ant has a job.  It is an ant civilization and they are very successful. 

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 03:28:56 PM
Yes, physical but not spiritually.

Spirituality is more fiction.  Like ghosts and spirits and the like, they are fictional.  And you do not have a soul and you will not go to heaven.  Your whole world/universe seems to be one fiction piled on top of another.  But then, it so much simpler and easier to just make stuff up as you go along.  That does cut down on thinking.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 09:32:20 PMOf course not, they are ants.

Ci. That's the grand point I was trying to make. Animals will never be as high as the human being.

The human being displays all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level.

Out of the tons of species, this one species has practically transformed the whole globe. We have been singled out.

We are much more than just mere animals. We are spiritual beings that can accomplish much more than what the mere animal can.

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 08, 2020, 07:43:03 PMHow is this different from knowing the names and attributes of Spiderman?

There's equal amount of evidence of what you're proposing and Spiderman.

Well let me ask some honest questions:

What are the names and attributes of spiderman?

What is the nature of spiderman?

What does spiderman teach about the human being?

Is spiderman physical or no?

What prophecies do spiderman fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 08, 2020, 08:06:34 PM
Here's a good video about the ant supercolony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqECNYmM23A

Unbeliever,

Can mere ants invent things 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants create technically advanced buildings 'just like' humans can create?

Can mere ants build super computers 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants build travelling devices so that we don't have to travel on foot 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants create a systematic societal government 'just like' humans do?

Can mere ants build a shuttle to travel outside of their natural globe that known as earth 'just like' humans can?

The human being is far more than just mere animals and beyond being just apart of nature. We have a divine reality and are the controllers of nature.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 08, 2020, 08:06:34 PM
Here's a good video about the ant supercolony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqECNYmM23A

The Han Chinese are the super colony ;-)  All hail Emperor Xi!

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 08, 2020, 03:52:08 PM
What's a jackal? Is it like a hyena?

Amazing SF Jesus.  You get on the Internet, but don't have Google?  Fake Messiah for sure.

Quote from: trdsf on January 08, 2020, 05:01:01 PM
Unsupported assertion. You need to prove a spiritual side exists before you can claim this.

Correct, the spiritual doesn't exist.  Only atoms exist - Democritus (aka the Laughing Philosopher, and now you know why he was laughing ... at you).    You and I are not atoms.  Therefore we don't exist.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 10:06:21 PM
Ci. That's the grand point I was trying to make. Animals will never be as high as the human being.

The human being displays all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level.

Out of the tons of species, this one species has practically transformed the whole globe. We have been singled out.

We are much more than just mere animals. We are spiritual beings that can accomplish much more than what the mere animal can.

You keep saying that and yet that is all you say.  You have not produced any evidence to support your statements.  And I fully understand why--there is no evidence, so you can't produce any.  You seem to be so feeble minded that you simply buy into what your 'betters' tell you.  That really is the easiest path to take, I suppose.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
You keep saying that and yet that is all you say.  You have not produced any evidence to support your statements.  And I fully understand why--there is no evidence, so you can't produce any.  You seem to be so feeble minded that you simply buy into what your 'betters' tell you.  That really is the easiest path to take, I suppose.

You are an AI from "wetware".  A messy version of Seri.  This is the AI dogma.  As a dog lover, you are inherently suspicious ;-)

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 10:16:31 PM
Well let me ask some honest questions:

What are the names and attributes of spiderman?

What is the nature of spiderman?

What does spiderman teach about the human being?

Is spiderman physical or no?

What prophecies do spiderman fulfill from the scriptures of old?

I'll give you an honest answer.  Spiderman is a fiction.  So, you can give him as many names and attributes as you wish.  He teaches you whatever it is you want him to--just like your god.  Spidey is just as physical as your god.  The scriptures of old are fiction, so I'm sure one can whip up some for old Spidey, which will be just as chuck full of prophecies as any other scripture.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
You keep saying that and yet that is all you say.  You have not produced any evidence to support your statements.  And I fully understand why--there is no evidence, so you can't produce any.  You seem to be so feeble minded that you simply buy into what your 'betters' tell you.  That really is the easiest path to take, I suppose.

The support for my view is the baha'i scripture, which Baha'u'llah [the current Manifestation of God for this time and age] has brought as divine education to fine tune the divine reality that's in the human being.

Do a serious look on Baha'u'llah and you will find God.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
You keep saying that and yet that is all you say.  You have not produced any evidence to support your statements.  And I fully understand why--there is no evidence, so you can't produce any.  You seem to be so feeble minded that you simply buy into what your 'betters' tell you.  That really is the easiest path to take, I suppose.

There is evidence that Jeffrey Epstein wasn't a suicide.  Many ignore the evidence, that doesn't fit their politics.  In a court neither the Defense or Offense is interested in the facts, they only care about conviction or acquittal.  People are too dishonest to treat evidence honestly.  Hence no need to argue between one corruption and another.  There is no hope with humans.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 10:06:21 PM
Ci. That's the grand point I was trying to make. Animals will never be as high as the human being.

The human being displays all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level.

Out of the tons of species, this one species has practically transformed the whole globe. We have been singled out.

We are much more than just mere animals. We are spiritual beings that can accomplish much more than what the mere animal can.

But talk to my cats ;-)  Don't bother talking to dogs.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
I'll give you an honest answer.  Spiderman is a fiction.  So, you can give him as many names and attributes as you wish.  He teaches you whatever it is you want him to--just like your god.  Spidey is just as physical as your god.  The scriptures of old are fiction, so I'm sure one can whip up some for old Spidey, which will be just as chuck full of prophecies as any other scripture.

It seems that spiderman bends to the human being's will just like the animal.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 11:46:21 PM
It seems that spiderman bends to the human being's will just like the animal.

Abrahamic deities are defined by their rigidity.  But the Bible shows otherwise.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 11:32:39 PM
The support for my view is the baha'i scripture, which Baha'u'llah [the current Manifestation of God for this time and age] has brought as divine education to fine tune the divine reality that's in the human being.

Do a serious look on Baha'u'llah and you will find God.

No, I won't find your god.  I have not taken a 'serious' look at your god, but I have of the christian fictional god.  And I am not going to do your homework for you.  If there are 'facts' you want me to know then give them to me.  And, no, assertions are not facts.  Your 'prophets are simply snake oil salesmen just like the prophets of all other religions.  You need to grow up a bit and learn to think for yourself.  But you seem too content to simply allow yourself to be force fed the crap your prophets feed you.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 11:32:39 PM
Do a serious look on Baha'u'llah and you will find God.

Christians say the same thing, but it's just empty air, putting the blame on someone else for not believing/thinking the same way they do.  All gods are false, and all religions are ideologies promising the moon, but horribly short on delivery.  They are so short on delivery that they eventually have to claim you only get the goods after you die, but by then it's too late to stop wasting your time.  You're fucked, and you may or may not die happily fucked, and then you get recycled into the universe.  All of you gets recycled except your thoughts that you call your mind and soul.  All of the part of you that you experience as you is gone.  Only a few useless ravings remain as digital archives on the forum, but you won't be able to even remember that you wrote them. just as the dead ants can't remember their anthill.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 10:33:07 PM
Unbeliever,

Can mere ants invent things 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants create technically advanced buildings 'just like' humans can create?

Can mere ants build super computers 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants build travelling devices so that we don't have to travel on foot 'just like' humans can?

Can mere ants create a systematic societal government 'just like' humans do?

Can mere ants build a shuttle to travel outside of their natural globe that known as earth 'just like' humans can?

The human being is far more than just mere animals and beyond being just apart of nature. We have a divine reality and are the controllers of nature.

You can't do any of those things, either, without lots of other people helping you or doing it for you. So, do you not embody the attributes of your God? Is it only in the collectivity of humanity that God's attributes are manifested?

5 pages of the usual god is mystical and humans are grand......yawn. Still no proof of either, but plenty of evidence for the opposite.

It'a all going to be a repetition of the nothing he's already talked about, Talk talk talk, but never say anything.

Quote from: aitm on January 09, 2020, 06:09:16 PM
5 pages of the usual god is mystical and humans are grand......yawn. Still no proof of either, but plenty of evidence for the opposite.

I agree.  We are Satan's own.  But that isn't an atheist position either.  In general people don't want to go to the attic and see the condition of their own Dorian Gray's portrait.  Far better to virtue signal.

Quote from: Baruch on January 09, 2020, 08:28:47 PM
I agree.  We are Satan's own.  But that isn't an atheist position either.  In general people don't want to go to the attic and see the condition of their own Dorian Gray's portrait.  Far better to virtue signal.

I like that, good way of describing peoples ugly inner self.

Quote from: Munch on January 09, 2020, 08:43:42 PM
I like that, good way of describing peoples ugly inner self.

Burnt out hulks from the 60s, are beautiful inside and out.  Their LSD told them so.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 08, 2020, 10:16:31 PM
Well let me ask some honest questions:

What are the names and attributes of spiderman?

What is the nature of spiderman?

What does spiderman teach about the human being?

Is spiderman physical or no?

What prophecies do spiderman fulfill from the scriptures of old?

His name is Peter Parker, he can climb walls, shoot web and has precognitive foresight. He's also very strong.

His nature is fictional - but I doubt you would be able to tell the difference from your faith.

He teaches us valor, honesty and perseverance through the stories told about Spiderman. You see it's possible to learn from fictional tales, knowing they're fictional. It's just pretend, like your faith.

No, Spiderman is not physical in the classical sense of the word, despite the multiple movies and comics about him.

Idk what prophecies he fulfills, but that's besides the point. I could make a vague prediction about the future too and I would be right, but it would be no more flights of fancy than your faith.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 09, 2020, 06:18:50 PM
It'a all going to be a repetition of the nothing he's already talked about, Talk talk talk, but never say anything.

Ministers in church do that.  Their job is to talk.  It varies from minister to minister, but the one's I have known personally are clever enough not to deal with the big question, "How do you know God is real?"  It's the fundamental question and the smart ministers deal with it, although not often, in tangential ways.  I think the only way you can do this is with unnecessary tangential talk.  Talk talk talk... "Look over here.  See me talk?  I'm talking about God as if his existence is real.  I wouldn't do this if he wasn't real (Heh?).  But if I talk as if he is real.  Even if some of what I say makes no sense, it creates an impression that he must be real. And that is my message I want you to hear.  Please put your money in the offering when it goes by, and enjoy your Sunday."

Already convinced died in the wool believers see this, and without thinking, they assume empty blather is important:  "If my minister talks to me this way, I'll talk to you this way.  After all, my minister is very smart, just like Bernie Madoff, who made lots of money.  See me talking?  I'm throwing the best I've got at you.  Logic?  Everyone knows what that is, and I'm very logical.  I know I am because I'm talking to you like my minister, and he's so logical I can hardly believe it. So God has to be real.  Otherwise, I couldn't be so logical."

That's what apologists do. They don't care about converting non-believers, they just want to give logical-sounding reasons for believers to feel rationally justified in their belief. If they can actually convert any non-believers, that's just icing on the cake.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 10, 2020, 01:25:31 PM
That's what apologists do. They don't care about converting non-believers, they just want to give logical-sounding reasons for believers to feel rationally justified in their belief. If they can actually convert any non-believers, that's just icing on the cake.

Technically Judaism uses apologetics and polemics but not conversion.  Buddhists convert, but get not brownie points for it.  Ideally Hindus are born into it.  Mostly Christians and Muslims both seek conversion and get brownie points for it.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 10, 2020, 01:25:31 PM
That's what apologists do. They don't care about converting non-believers, they just want to give logical-sounding reasons for believers to feel rationally justified in their belief. If they can actually convert any non-believers, that's just icing on the cake.

Hi everyone.

I think this topic as run it's course.

When I first started this, I just wanted to come with a new perspective on the topic of the existence of God.

I know that atheists what physical evidence and that's understandable because we're living in the physical world. But I was just trying to explain that there is a reality beyond the physical reality, the spiritual reality.

And I was just trying to explain that it is only the human being that manifest that spiritual reality in the physical world to the fullest.

I think that I was giving evidences, because the definition of the word evidence is:
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

And the "information" that's in the divine teachings are "indicating" that the proof of reality of God is the names and
attributes that only the human being
can display.

There are no physical evidence of God.

I hope that I am welcome again for conversation.

You all have a good one.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
Hi everyone.

I think this topic as run it's course.

When I first started this, I just wanted to come with a new perspective on the topic of the existence of God.

You are welcome here as far as I'm concerned.  But you failed in your quest.  You did not offer a new perspective about god.  You are correct in that you say god does not exist in a physical sense.  But your god, and all others, don't exist in any sense. 

Gods can only ever exist inside the minds of those who believe in them, like any other fictional character.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
Hi everyone.

I think this topic as run it's course.

When I first started this, I just wanted to come with a new perspective on the topic of the existence of God.

I know that atheists what physical evidence and that's understandable because we're living in the physical world. But I was just trying to explain that there is a reality beyond the physical reality, the spiritual reality.

And I was just trying to explain that it is only the human being that manifest that spiritual reality in the physical world to the fullest.

I think that I was giving evidences, because the definition of the word evidence is:
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

And the "information" that's in the divine teachings are "indicating" that the proof of reality of God is the names and
attributes that only the human being
can display.

There are no physical evidence of God.

I hope that I am welcome again for conversation.

You all have a good one.

okay well you did have a good level of grace about this so kudos to that.

But it still doesn't really have validation about evidence, spiritual evidence doesn't account for anything. If you were to use that in a court of law they would throw the book at you.

It is as has been said on the same level of what we think of when we read comic books or watch movies, the escapism of it from our often hum drum lives, the people who write fantasy and fictional novels as the same kind of people who wrote the stories you quote from the bible thousands of years ago.

The only difference is the people writing fiction and fantasy today are open about it being a created fantasy, the people writing fiction and fantasy couple thousand years ago did it to weave people into cult like following.

It may have already been asked but let me ask this one to you. There are thousands of gods in human society, from greek to roman to Japanese to celtic to norse to Indian to native american and beyond. You only believe in one god while they believe or did believe in many others. What if there is a god, but its not your god, but one of these others? 

Quote from: Munch on January 10, 2020, 09:53:55 PM
okay well you did have a good level of grace about this so kudos to that.

But it still doesn't really have validation about evidence, spiritual evidence doesn't account for anything. If you were to use that in a court of law they would throw the book at you.

It is as has been said on the same level of what we think of when we read comic books or watch movies, the escapism of it from our often hum drum lives, the people who write fantasy and fictional novels as the same kind of people who wrote the stories you quote from the bible thousands of years ago.

The only difference is the people writing fiction and fantasy today are open about it being a created fantasy, the people writing fiction and fantasy couple thousand years ago did it to weave people into cult like following.

It may have already been asked but let me ask this one to you. There are thousands of gods in human society, from greek to roman to Japanese to celtic to norse to Indian to native american and beyond. You only believe in one god while they believe or did believe in many others. What if there is a god, but its not your god, but one of these others?

You brought me back with an interesting question.

I'm not a christian, I'm baha'i by the why.

I know that it seems like they are different gods that some people believe in. But have it ever occured to you and have you ever thought that, because these religions are so old and because they didn't have the recordings that we have today,
That they very well may have been actually talking about one God and those "different" gods that we hear about were actually different "aspects" of that "one God"?

Quote from: Sal1981 on January 10, 2020, 02:14:12 AM
His name is Peter Parker, he can climb walls, shoot web and has precognitive foresight. He's also very strong.

His nature is fictional - but I doubt you would be able to tell the difference from your faith.

He teaches us valor, honesty and perseverance through the stories told about Spiderman. You see it's possible to learn from fictional tales, knowing they're fictional. It's just pretend, like your faith.

No, Spiderman is not physical in the classical sense of the word, despite the multiple movies and comics about him.

Idk what prophecies he fulfills, but that's besides the point. I could make a vague prediction about the future too and I would be right, but it would be no more flights of fancy than your faith.

No prophecies?  C'mon, what about his spider sense?  In all the stories about him he has dodged danger multiple times.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 10:24:15 PM
You brought me back with an interesting question.

I'm not a christian, I'm baha'i by the why.

I know that it seems like they are different gods that some people believe in. But have it ever occured to you and have you ever thought that, because these religions are so old and because they didn't have the recordings that we have today,
That they very well may have been actually talking about one God and those "different" gods that we hear about were actually different "aspects" of that "one God"?

Or, instead of having multiple concepts into different entities, Christians just threw all concept into the same spot on the wall instead of spreading it around because it's easier to just say their god does it all instead of having to think up their own new characters like Romans did from Greek myths. It's pretty lazy to be honest.

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 10, 2020, 07:45:17 PM
Gods can only ever exist inside the minds of those who believe in them, like any other fictional character.

The ego is a fiction, yours and mine.  Neither of us exist.

Quote from: Munch on January 10, 2020, 10:38:12 PM
Or, instead of having multiple concepts into different entities, Christians just threw all concept into the same spot on the wall instead of spreading it around because it's easier to just say their god does it all instead of having to think up their own new characters like Romans did from Greek myths. It's pretty lazy to be honest.

Christianity is  simplification of paganism.  But is derived from paganism.

Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2020, 06:35:43 AM
Christianity is  simplification of paganism.  But is derived from paganism.

Indeed, many newer religions are just derived from previous ones and made more simple to lure people in with easy concepts.

"Evidences." Why do all apologists say that? The plural of "evidence" is "evidence."

Also, there are no fulfilled prophecies. Not a one.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
I know that atheists what physical evidence and that's understandable because we're living in the physical world. But I was just trying to explain that there is a reality beyond the physical reality, the spiritual reality.

And I was just trying to explain that it is only the human being that manifest that spiritual reality in the physical world to the fullest.

I have to ask, to what purpose?  If you came in knowing that non-physical evidence would not be accepted, why would you think there was a point in offering only that?

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
I think that I was giving evidences, because the definition of the word evidence is:
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

Fatally incomplete.  Evidence is also independently verifiable.  It's not evidence if you can dismiss a failure to accept it with "Oh, you have to read it in the right spirit".

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
There are no physical evidence of God.

The single truest thing you've said.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
I know that atheists what physical evidence and that's understandable because we're living in the physical world. But I was just trying to explain that there is a reality beyond the physical reality, the spiritual reality.

You explained that there is.  That's just a claim without proof.  You are not able to furnish proof, which fails to support your claim.  So the claim cannot be anything more than a claim. And I think you understand why, but I'll point it out anyway.  Proof exists only in the physical world.  You are making an assertion about something outside the physical, so it can't be verified.  Nothing outside the physical can be verified.  This is why science does not even try to verify God or the spiritual. Many would like to, but they can't.  This is not a failing, although it disappoints the spiritual types.

Quote from: od19g6 on January 10, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
And I was just trying to explain that it is only the human being that manifest that spiritual reality in the physical world to the fullest.

It's the same problem.  A claim that a human can manifest a spiritual reality, whatever that is supposed to mean, is invalid until you can prove a spiritual reality.  Logical people don't go there, because they can't.

And that makes the claim, even if it might be true, if only by accident, irrelevant.  Materialists don't deal with the irrelevant, unless they mistakenly get sidetracked and begin to think illogically.  Yes it happens.  As pointed out in another post, the best you can do is present arguments that superficially sound logical.  These are called logical fallacies, and anyone can fall prey to them.  But spiritualists use lists of logical fallacies (you can google them on the internet) as a strategy to construct phony arguments.  They are either being sly and deceitful, or they simply don't know any better.  You no doubt pick them up from your religion but don't recognize what they are.

A logical religion wouldn't be much fun, because you are very limited by logic.  You could only say, "I believe, but I don't have a clue why I should."  This is not good for the church's positive cash flow.

Your position that your perspective is "new" is an error. We have heard it all before. Now if you suggested god was a tootsie roll....well...now you would have our attention.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
I'm sure one can whip up some for old Spidey, which will be just as chuck full of prophecies as any other scripture.

There are lots of spiders in Lord of the Rings. That might be a good place to start.

od19g6 I never heard of BaHái religion before. But if your god only talks to one person every 1,000 years, and I am not that person, there isn't any reason to pay attention to your god ðŸ¤"

I know nothing.

Like Sgt. Schultz?  LOL

Quote from: Gregory on February 28, 2020, 08:19:58 PM
I know nothing.

Yeah, I knew him for awhile--but I've lost track of him.  Say 'hi' to him for me, will you?

One cannot be certain of anything.

Quote from: Gregory on February 28, 2020, 08:49:48 PM
One cannot be certain of anything.

So, you are saying that the only thing one can be certain of is that nothing is certain.  Certainly.

Quote from: Gregory on February 28, 2020, 08:49:48 PM
One cannot be certain of anything.

Yet we must muddle on anyway.

I agree with Descarte, we can be certain of our own existence. It's the only thing we can be certain of, it's what I refer to as "primary knowledge." Everything else is either secondary or tertiary knowledge, certainty of which can only be approached asymptotically.

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 29, 2020, 02:11:37 PM
I agree with Descarte, we can be certain of our own existence. It's the only thing we can be certain of, it's what I refer to as "primary knowledge." Everything else is either secondary or tertiary knowledge, certainty of which can only be approached asymptotically.

Tres bien!

Quote from: Unbeliever on February 29, 2020, 02:11:37 PM
I agree with Descarte, we can be certain of our own existence. It's the only thing we can be certain of, it's what I refer to as "primary knowledge." Everything else is either secondary or tertiary knowledge, certainty of which can only be approached asymptotically.

We are never certain of anything, especially our existence.

Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 02:39:25 AM
We are never certain of anything, especially our existence.

DesCartes this troll away!

To my own self be true.

Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 02:39:25 AM
We are never certain of anything, especially our existence.

I'm absolutely certain that I exist, but I'm not certain that you exist.

Solipsism.

Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
Solipsism.

All humans are solipsists, most are just are too shy to admit it ;-)

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 06, 2020, 01:52:15 PM
I'm absolutely certain that I exist, but I'm not certain that you exist.

I am willing to accept that others exist, on the basis that they come up with ideas and concepts that shock me.  The more my mind is blown by something, the less likely I thought of it and ascribed it to a figment of my imagination.

Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 02:39:25 AM
We are never certain of anything, especially our existence.

Meh. You can’t come up with a reasonable explanation for what you experience. Gordian knot. You exist because you experience it, there is no other logical explanation.

Quote from: trdsf on March 07, 2020, 04:11:32 AM
I am willing to accept that others exist, on the basis that they come up with ideas and concepts that shock me.  The more my mind is blown by something, the less likely I thought of it and ascribed it to a figment of my imagination.

You should trust your imagination more.

I'm one of the few atheists who will also admit to being absolutely certain that God does not exist, at least the God of the Bible/Q'uran, etc. There is no God, period. Anything else someone wants to call God, like "love,' or whatever, then OK, maybe that thing exists, but it isn't "God." Many ateists will say the don't believe 99.999 %, but I'm willing to go all the way and say I don't believe, 100%.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2020, 01:34:11 PM
I'm one of the few atheists who will also admit to being absolutely certain that God does not exist, at least the God of the Bible/Q'uran, etc. There is no God, period. Anything else someone wants to call God, like "love,' or whatever, then OK, maybe that thing exists, but it isn't "God." Many ateists will say the don't believe 99.999 %, but I'm willing to go all the way and say I don't believe, 100%.

But you do believe in some things ... poor fool that you are, we are ;-)

No, I don't "believe" in anything, I have working hypotheses, but no "belief." That's why my username is Unbeliever.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
No, I don't "believe" in anything, I have working hypotheses, but no "belief." That's why my username is Unbeliever.

that makes, two of us.  I don't 'believe' anything, either.  I do have thoughts that could be wrong, but I'm willing to change my mind then.  Working hypotheses is a great way to put it.

Many people don't understand the concept of not believing. They think that if we tentatively hold something to be true that we "believer" it to be true.

There's nothing wrong with believing things, as long as said belief is not contradicted by reality, observations and/or logic -- and as long as belief isn't mistaken for knowledge.

I'm not sure that I think it's a question of 'knowing' there's no god.  I prefer to think of it as simply accepting the null hypothesis: there's no reason to even entertain the notion of a god absent evidence to do so.  I am under no obligation to continue to fail to observe a god, any more than physicists have to repeat the Michelson-Morley experiment and re-disprove æther theory before every time they want to use relativistic equations.

I have grown to dislike the word 'belief'.  Why?  Because theists tend to tell me that I must believe in something.  One told me that surely I have beliefs--one would be that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I indicated that I don't 'believe' that, I think it will rise tomorrow (even tho that is simply a shorthand way of saying the earth is rotating) since it has for billions of years; if it fails to rise, then I'll change my thinking.  I prefer to use the words hypothesis, theory, guesses and not belief.  Even in the world of sports, I used to say that 'I believe the Yankees will win the pennant this year.'; now I say that I think they will.  So, I don't believe anything.  I think things are--and when they aren't, then I will change my thinking. 

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
No, I don't "believe" in anything, I have working hypotheses, but no "belief." That's why my username is Unbeliever.

God-Emperor Unbeliever then, not God-Emperor Trump (whatever he may believe).

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 07, 2020, 05:59:15 PM
that makes, two of us.  I don't 'believe' anything, either.  I do have thoughts that could be wrong, but I'm willing to change my mind then.  Working hypotheses is a great way to put it.

Once we are retired, we are non-working hypotheses ;-)  Given we need to be skeptical of Descartes.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 07, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
I have grown to dislike the word 'belief'.  Why?  Because theists tend to tell me that I must believe in something.  One told me that surely I have beliefs--one would be that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I indicated that I don't 'believe' that, I think it will rise tomorrow (even tho that is simply a shorthand way of saying the earth is rotating) since it has for billions of years; if it fails to rise, then I'll change my thinking.  I prefer to use the words hypothesis, theory, guesses and not belief.  Even in the world of sports, I used to say that 'I believe the Yankees will win the pennant this year.'; now I say that I think they will.  So, I don't believe anything.  I think things are--and when they aren't, then I will change my thinking.

Married people know, you will change your thinking anytime your spouse tells you to ;-)  The idea that you are an autonomous brain in a jar, isn't real either.  That is a semi-omnipresent narrator person, like Plato and his Forms.

I believe in Queen Elsa and Queen Anna ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnN6glKaWdE

Belief can be applied to things us atheists have, like when you work alongside people and you put your trust in others to work with you, you could call that a belief in others since theirs no guarantee each day, unlike the sun, they will operate the same way.
Of course when you put faith in others and they let you down it just leads to you having less faith in others over time.

Quote from: Munch on March 08, 2020, 03:49:38 PM
Belief can be applied to things us atheists have, like when you work alongside people and you put your trust in others to work with you, you could call that a belief in others since theirs no guarantee each day, unlike the sun, they will operate the same way.
Of course when you put faith in others and they let you down it just leads to you having less faith in others over time.

Yes, Munch, one could use the words 'belief' and 'faith' in the way you describe.  It is common for married couples to say they 'believe' in each other and have 'faith' in their love.  But those are gateway words for theism.  I love and trust my wife.  I think she will work well with me and I have trust in her abilities and loyalty.  I don't need to use the words--faith and believe--to convey what I mean.  In fact, using the words 'think' and 'trust' is clearer in my eyes to describe what I really mean.  I trusted my mates and co-workers until they demonstrated they were not worthy of that trust.  Faith had nothing to do with it.  I did not trust them blindly.  I equate both belief and faith as not reasoning and simply assuming whatever one has a belief or faith in. 

And the semantic wars continue, because English words are hard ;-)  This is why jargon was invented, to avoid commonly used words.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 07, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
No, I don't "believe" in anything, I have working hypotheses, but no "belief." That's why my username is Unbeliever.

I usually distinguish between belief and faith.

What most people mean when they say "belief in something", they actually mean faith. Faith, as I understand it, is a conviction of things not seen and which there is no evidence for. Whereas belief is merely a conviction of things we hold to be true, based on both a working hypothesis/theory and/or evidence for it. Basically, faith is lofty groundless convictions, where belief has at least some grounding.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 07, 2020, 08:30:49 PM
I have grown to dislike the word 'belief'.  Why?  Because theists tend to tell me that I must believe in something.  One told me that surely I have beliefs--one would be that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I indicated that I don't 'believe' that, I think it will rise tomorrow (even tho that is simply a shorthand way of saying the earth is rotating) since it has for billions of years; if it fails to rise, then I'll change my thinking.  I prefer to use the words hypothesis, theory, guesses and not belief.  Even in the world of sports, I used to say that 'I believe the Yankees will win the pennant this year.'; now I say that I think they will.  So, I don't believe anything.  I think things are--and when they aren't, then I will change my thinking. 

I bet when you try explaining that to them they still don't get it.  LOL

I don't even try explaining it to religious types any more, except here when they show up to become chew toys for a little while. I hardly ever run across them, anyway, out here in meat space, so I seldom have to worry about it.

Quote from: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 05:16:30 PM
And the semantic wars continue, because English words are hard ;-)  This is why jargon was invented, to avoid commonly used words.

I've heard that the English language is the hardest to learn as a second language. Even harder than Chinese. Hard to see how it could be harder than, say, Welsh, or Basque, but what do I  know?

"I have a dream."
The dream is ours to share
of somewhere better.

Martin Luther King had faith in his dream: this I believe.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 06:45:19 PM

I've heard that the English language is the hardest to learn as a second language. Even harder than Chinese. Hard to see how it could be harder than, say, Welsh, or Basque, but what do I  know?

Semantics is hard in any language, it is universal.  Chinese is mostly homonyms.  The meaning of a spoken word relies much more on context than English.

This is why philosophers/psychologists use technical words, to avoid "meaning" arguments.  In a technical discussion with say, electrical engineers, one knows what "volt" means, one doesn't have to consult Plato.

If you believe in nothing else, I urge you to believe in your self ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ipTOrO0vF0

Quote from: Gregory on March 08, 2020, 09:29:36 PM
"I have a dream."
The dream is ours to share
of somewhere better.

Martin Luther King had faith in his dream: this I believe.

And he died for it.  In Heaven he got his better world (since he was a Christian).

Quote from: Gregory on March 08, 2020, 09:29:36 PM
"I have a dream."
The dream is ours to share
of somewhere better.

Martin Luther King had faith in his dream: this I believe.

That statement did not make any sense.  But with you, that seems par for the course.

The King thing may have made sense if you were following the conversation.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 06:45:19 PM

I've heard that the English language is the hardest to learn as a second language. Even harder than Chinese. Hard to see how it could be harder than, say, Welsh, or Basque, but what do I  know?

Truly? It was the easiest to learn, for me. Easier than French, even. And a lot easier than German.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 09, 2020, 07:15:04 AM
Truly? It was the easiest to learn, for me. Easier than French, even. And a lot easier than German.

French - all vowels, no consonants
German - all consonants, no vowels

Achtung!  En garde! 2100 years of verbal combat.

Quote from: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 09:34:24 PM
Semantics is hard in any language, it is universal.  Chinese is mostly homonyms.  The meaning of a spoken word relies much more on context than English.

This is why philosophers/psychologists use technical words, to avoid "meaning" arguments.  In a technical discussion with say, electrical engineers, one knows what "volt" means, one doesn't have to consult Plato.

What does Plato have to do with the meaning of "volt"?

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 09, 2020, 02:08:43 PM

What does Plato have to do with the meaning of "volt"?

He drove one---didn't he?????

I thought he drove a Miasma?

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 09, 2020, 02:08:43 PM

What does Plato have to do with the meaning of "volt"?

Philosophy is dead white men walking.

Quote from: Unbeliever on March 09, 2020, 02:53:17 PM
I thought he drove a Miasma?

Miata ... Plato was a champaign socialist.

My logical reasoning dictates me to believe that G-d must be nothing but an information-processing thing.

It must be taken as a thing because we are foreigners to its nature.

G-d damn it... We are still very young on this earh. So what?

So, human is nothing but his mind... We are not our members, that is, we are not our arms, feet, teeth, liver, or you name it... We are our mind. Right?

Amputate a person's arm, he is he again... Chop off his throat and integrate him with a mechanical body, he is he again...

Because there is no difference between intelligence versus artificial intelligence... There is just intelligence, without a requirement to a material body... You can also transfer the intelligence(or mind)...

This is sci. and tech., you bitch...
Not talking about fiction...

By saying ''we are young on this earth'' i mean that the human intelligence is on the brink of transforming its mature era. by machine symbiosis...

Once the evolution of the intelligence begin, it's just unstopable...

New evolution is artificial selection and it selects not carbon but silicon...

There is no way out for human being to add a new layer to its brain... This is nothing but an imperative to survive... Now that we are surviving by our intelligience and tool-making abilities(tech.) yes, we can't run like cheetah but we can produce Ferrari, u'know, it's science bitch :D no fiction...

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 20, 2020, 08:07:15 PM
My logical reasoning dictates me to believe that G-d must be nothing but an information-processing thing.

It must be taken as a thing because we are foreigners to its nature.

G-d damn it... We are still very young on this earh. So what?

If god is real (which it is not) can anything in this universe can be foreign to it's nature????  Makes no sense.  Why label it G-d?  Are you afraid of it????  That would be like being afraid of Pecos Bill or Bugs Bunny.

Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2020, 08:41:53 PM
If god is real (which it is not) can anything in this universe can be foreign to it's nature????  Makes no sense.  Why label it G-d?  Are you afraid of it????  That would be like being afraid of Pecos Bill or Bugs Bunny.

Think of a brain which tries hard to understand itself...

I mean, we are using our brains to understand the nature of this organ.

that is, a brain which is foreign to its own nature...

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 20, 2020, 08:49:09 PM
Think of a brain which tries hard to understand itself...

I mean, we are using our brains to understand the nature of this organ.

that is, a brain which is foreign to its own nature...

Atoms are intelligent, otherwise the aggregation, random or orderly, or atoms, wouldn't be intelligent ... or conscious or alive ... unless of course the whole is greater than the parts.  If the whole is greater than the parts (including emergentism) then there are characteristics of aggregates of atoms that are not true of the atoms themselves.  See my post today on "Reality" in the Physics & Astronomy section.

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 20, 2020, 08:49:09 PM
Think of a brain which tries hard to understand itself...

I mean, we are using our brains to understand the nature of this organ.

that is, a brain which is foreign to its own nature...

So Pinky and The Brain is god.

Quote from: Mike Cl on April 20, 2020, 10:45:26 PM
So Pinky and The Brain is god.

Not Porky Pig and Mickey Mouse ;-)

Quote from: od19g6 on December 31, 2019, 07:04:29 PMSo I  guess I'll start.

So what if I told you that we will never know God completely.

We can only know God through His names and attributes.

A concept you might want to consider is that you can't know much about something that is nonexistent.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 07, 2022, 10:38:51 AMA concept you might want to consider is that you can't know much about something that is nonexistent.

Like Star Wars.