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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Math and Computers => Topic started by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 09:03:47 AM

Title: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 09:03:47 AM
Or maybe we'll just start with "do you know how to program?"

I'm a professional PHP programmer by trade, but I think the language is kinda shitty.

At home I mostly program in Lua right now, which is awesome. For something as old at it is, it seems to be able to do a few things that I haven't really seen any other language do. Like multiple return values on functions. Or variable swapping.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Sal1981 on June 21, 2013, 09:43:31 AM
Java, JS, and if you can call it a programming language HTML. As a part of my job, I've learned a good deal about Python as well. They're easy languages to learn, IMO. I also know a GIS "language" called ESRI's ArcGIS, it's built upon the Python model engine, hence the requirement to learn some Python. I have dabbled in C and C++, but I wouldn't know a class from a variable now if my life dependent on it.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 09:56:33 AM
I don't think HTML/CSS qualifies as a programming language as you cannot use it to solve anything. All it does is make documents. It's about as much of a programming language as microsoft word in that regard :P

It is pretty complex though. Especially the newest version. Who'd have thought you can make a language that describes what a document should look like that becomes so complex that hardly anyone would be able to figure it out without specialised training.

And nobody even notices, because hardly any ever presses Control+U to bring up the HTML source that was used to build the page they're currently looking at.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 21, 2013, 10:14:45 AM
My favorite programming language is the one that mistakenly puts $1 from everyone elses bank account into my account. Somehow I flunked that class in college.. binge drinking.. :-k
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 10:19:08 AM
Computers don't make mistakes :P That's one of the first things you learn in IT class.

If the computer isn't doing what you want, it's because you're failing to explain to it what you want. ^^
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 21, 2013, 10:20:58 AM
Ok then..picky picky.. THE APPEARANCE of mistakenly.. Feel better now?
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 10:23:26 AM
That's what you get when you program computers too long, it makes you very specific about things ;P
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 21, 2013, 10:32:40 AM
Err..yep. Just think when computers are made to understand wishy washy praying-like language..
"Please computer..send a billion dollars to my account and make my penis grow three inches overnight!" :-k
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Satt on June 21, 2013, 10:46:52 AM
It may not count, but VBA has been VERY useful to me over the years.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 10:47:49 AM
VBA is a programming language in every sense of the word :)
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 21, 2013, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: "Plu"Or maybe we'll just start with "do you know how to program?"

I'm a professional PHP programmer by trade, but I think the language is kinda shitty.

At home I mostly program in Lua right now, which is awesome. For something as old at it is, it seems to be able to do a few things that I haven't really seen any other language do. Like multiple return values on functions. Or variable swapping.
I used to program all the time, although not professionally.  It was the single most enjoyable thing I did with the computer at one time.  While not a professional, so to speak, I did write and market a program.  The marketing was expensive as Hell, but I managed to break even on a $40,000 investment.  But it was fun.  Alas, I no longer program, as I've gone on to other things.  I don't even know what the languages are these days.  My programming ended just as the BASIC variations were becoming obsolete.  I think what I liked about it, was that it required a logical cause and effect mindset.  You could make the computer do anything you wanted, as long as you proceeded logically and followed rules of syntax (and spelling) that the computer would understand.  If you did it right, without making assumptions that the computer would figure out what you had in mind even if you wrote garbage code, it would do what you wanted.  It was a satisfying rush if you proceeded in a logical fashion and didn't expect the computer to just jump to your conclusions.  It forced me to think somewhat similarly to the way skeptics think through things to reach reality based conclusions.  Bullshit didn't work, no matter how much you wanted it to.  There were logical rules that you had to follow.  If you put in bullshit, you got nothing for it.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 10:56:40 AM
Yeah. I think that's a pretty accurate description of what makes programming awesome :)

The mindset and the ability to describe a proces in such detail that even a machine can do it.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 21, 2013, 11:03:35 AM
C'mon programmers.. do something useful. Write a program that hacks government sites..the ones accessable to the public and whenever a teabaggers says anything the site says things like: Governor admits to being a lying sack of shit. Or.. Congressman X admits to enjoying anal sex with BBC!
Your lives could be so worthwhile.:)
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: wolf39us on June 21, 2013, 11:19:12 AM
(//http://www.devtopics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/comic.jpg)

LOL
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jason78 on June 21, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
Quote from: "Plu"I'm a professional PHP programmer

There's no such fucking thing!  :rollin:

But to answer the OP's question.  It would have to be something like C.  I find it an elegant language to express code in.

I do most of my work in C# at the moment though.  It's a fun language.

Although, not as fun as Ook.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jason78 on June 21, 2013, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: "Plu"VBA is a programming language in every sense of the word :)

It's turing complete, I'll give it that.

I find it unwieldy though.  Have you tried writing a multi-threaded app in VB?
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 21, 2013, 01:34:57 PM
QuoteThere's no such fucking thing!  

Don't tell my boss or he'll stop giving me my salary at the end of the month!  :shock:

QuoteI find it unwieldy though. Have you tried writing a multi-threaded app in VB?

I've never programmed in VB myself, actually.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: caseagainstfaith on June 21, 2013, 01:47:09 PM
Quote from: "Jason78"But to answer the OP's question.  It would have to be something like C.  I find it an elegant language to express code in.

C "elegant"??? WFT? C is utter shit as far as elegance.  C# or Java are C-like languages that have some elegance to them, and are so by pulling out the most complete shit parts of C. (I'm looking at you, macros)

Pascal is verbose.  But, far better as far as elegance.

My primary programming languages of choice are Delphi (Pascal based) and C#.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: caseagainstfaith on June 21, 2013, 01:52:29 PM
ADA and Eiffel, what little I know of them, seem "elegant".  Oxygene, a .NET Pascal flavored language looks nice.  But, I haven't really used them, so, I can't give any real professional opinion of them.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Lao Tou on June 22, 2013, 12:03:51 AM
Most of my work over the last decade has been programming in SQL. I started out as a VB programmer (5 & 6), moved to Active Server Pages, then renounced the Dark Side (ASP) and went to SQL. A year ago I took a class on C#, and this year I took another. C# is a much better programming language than Visual Basic was, and now as my antique VB apps crash and burn I find myself looking for ways to rewrite them in C#. BTW, my VB and C# apps are UIs for the SQL code that does the actual work.

I am first and foremost a SQL programmer.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 22, 2013, 12:25:02 AM
Quote from: "Lao Tou"I started out as a VB A year ago I took a class on C#, and this year I took another. C# is a much better programming language than Visual Basic was
As BASIC began to go the way of the dinosaurs, I decided I too must move on.  Now BASIC always came with the machines.  In the old Apples, I think it may have been part of the hardware.  In PCs with Windows, it came as part of the software included in Windows.  It was free.

Anyway, it turned out that Visual Basic I had to send for.  It may have cost about $100, but I thought what the Hell, since I wanted to continue programming.  Now there was a cute little tutorial that came with VB and it did some pretty cool stuff, and it wasn't hard to catch on, but for the life of me, it didn't explain how to save anything I wrote.  I confess, I didn't work too hard trying to figure this out, but Microsoft was quick to tell me I could get Professional VB for $1500, and that's where I lost interest in the whole thing.  I guess my programming days were naturally coming to an end.   I decided I'd just buy some games.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 22, 2013, 12:33:36 AM
I've poked around in and tinkered with the files in Microsoft Flight Simulator.  Some of the stuff is buried in places I can't find, and probably wouldn't understand, but you can change characteristics of the planes in each individual airplane folder.  Of all things, this information comes in a simple notepad file.  It's just data, not actual source code, but I always wondered about that.  Apparently some programming somewhere gets information from these notepad textfiles.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Obviously, I'm so far out of the loop now, I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but I just had to ask.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 22, 2013, 03:21:00 AM
Yeah, that's one of the basic approaches to programming lots of things that are very similar in actions but different in properties (ie; different planes all do the same basic thing but each has a different size, speed, rotate speed, etc)

You build the code to work with an external data source, so that you only write code to fly a plane once, and then just point it to the right location to determine which visual model to use, how fast it flies and turns, etc.

The fun part about putting all that stuff in text files is that users can add their own stuff or change the existing ones (which is a simple form of what's called 'modding games'; players changing their own game for fun)

You see this in lots of games because it's an easy way to add a huge amount of replay value when people from around the world start adding new units and scenarios to games.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 22, 2013, 06:25:22 AM
It just struck me as odd, but when I think about it, there's nothing special about data that says it has to be kept as a super special file type associated with a particular language.  It's just keyboard characters stored in a fairly rigid format.  All the programming needs to do is get it's hands on it.  A bit of data like "125" doesn't suddenly have no meaning if it's saved from a Microsoft Word file to a Note Pad text file.  It's still "125".  If the program is written to access such files, I guess it wouldn't make any difference where or how it's stored.

This thread is interesting.  Almost makes me want to get involved in programming again, although I've got so many other things to do with my computer, I'm not sure I'm up for going through the learning curves of programming again.  Nor do I have a special need right now.  I've become an end user of programs, rather than a creator of them.

Incidentally, after computers started becoming part of the system, I signed up for a really basic two day introductory course taught by a knowledgeable high school teacher.  I was absolutely confounded by the computer environment.  I'd never touched a computer before.  I kept wondering where things went, and how do I get it back?  Why is this stuff stored in a file?  And why do they even call it a file?  

Part of the problem was that the class was overcrowded, and while I probably could have sorted out the thing with a minimum of help, I could get no personal attention to get myself started.  The teacher seemed like he was always in a rush to get away from me, and didn't have time to answer a couple of crucial questions to get me going.

In utter defeat, I did not return to class after lunch.  I can't tell you how unlike me that is.  The whole process seemed futile.  It felt like I had reached beyond my intellectual limits, like part of my brain, the part that understands computers must be defective or missing.

Not wanting to be outwitted by a machine, I eventually signed up for a real course at the Jr. College.  It was a course in BASIC of all things.  Hell, at the time, I couldn't have even used a word processor, but with just a little help, I caught on and found the experience breathtaking.  That seems like an odd description, but it's actually very accurate.

I eventually became the go to guy when someone had a problem with their computer where I worked.  I don't know if that says something good about me, or how bad the rest of the people I worked with were.  No, it was actually a point of pride.

Even now, having a grasp of what programming is, you guys still amaze me.  It still amazes me that people can tell a machine what to do and get a response.  I'm not sure why, because it's exactly what this whole thing is about.  But learning to program was different from any other learning experience I ever went through.  Fascinating.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 22, 2013, 07:07:16 AM
(//http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k189/Talaria_42/Capture2_zps9166e7eb.jpg)
This is where my time is going now.  Flight Simulator airports are generic and boring.  Just the same buildings over and over again whether it's in Turkey or the back woods of Colorado, and there's no place to go with a sea plane.  Sure, you can land on the water.  Big deal.  Eventually you begin to ask yourself why.

I used what I guess you would call a type of cad draw program to create this destination.  This is my first attempt, a sawmill on the Chandalar River in Alaska.  The program, called FSDS, was fairly popular up through FS9, and there were quite a few of us in the Flight Sim community uploading freeware to the net.  But in the last and final update, FSX closed off the community from tinkering with the program (how you talked about modding games).  It can be done, but it's much harder.  As a result many people have uninstalled FSX and gone back to FS9, and most of the user designed stuff, especially scenery, is still devoted to FS9.

FSDS has been "updated" (kind of) to work in FSX, but the cad draw program is pretty hinky and a lot of problems have to be corrected by trial error, and it starts getting especially glitchy with Windows 7.  I had to go to the Net and find some workarounds.  

I've created 5 more of these destinations around Fairbanks, Alaska so far.  The old uploaders of scenery seem to be gone now.  I used to communicate with a bunch of them.  I think they got discouraged by Microsoft making the flight simulator less open.  I'm not sure if I'll upload stuff again. I may just make the stuff for my personal use.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: viocjit on June 25, 2013, 05:20:05 PM
I haven't preference. If you want a dynamic website you can use ASP , PHP or Perl etc... Personally I think that you must choice between PHP and Perl like all tools to use these languages are open source.

If you want make a video game for PC you can use C or C++ etc... If you want program with your calculator TI (Texas Instrument) you can use Ti-Basic or ASM X86.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 25, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
I'm currently building videogames in Lua using the open source LÖVE 2d games framework. Which is a lot of fun :)
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: GurrenLagann on June 25, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
I suppose I'd have to go with the 1st programming language I ever learned, PHP, since I'm more familiar with it than I am with other languages I've delved into over the last several years.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jason78 on June 25, 2013, 06:24:40 PM
Quote from: "SGOS"It just struck me as odd, but when I think about it, there's nothing special about data that says it has to be kept as a super special file type associated with a particular language.

What'll really bake your noodle is that executable code is data.  It can be processed and modified by executing code.  While it's executing.

Self modifying code (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-modifying_code)

Less weird are programs thats output are themselves.  Some programmers have way too much time on their hands. (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing))
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: SGOS on June 25, 2013, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: "Jason78"
Quote from: "SGOS"It just struck me as odd, but when I think about it, there's nothing special about data that says it has to be kept as a super special file type associated with a particular language.

What'll really bake your noodle is that executable code is data.  It can be processed and modified by executing code.  While it's executing.
That explains some things I've wondered about:

QuoteUse as camouflage[edit]

Self-modifying code was used to hide copy protection instructions in 1980s disk-based programs for platforms such as IBM PC and Apple II. For example, on an IBM PC (or compatible), the floppy disk drive access instruction 'int 0x13' would not appear in the executable program's image but it would be written into the executable's memory image after the program started executing.

Self-modifying code is also sometimes used by programs that do not want to reveal their presence, such as computer viruses and some shellcodes. Viruses and shellcodes that use self-modifying code mostly do this in combination with polymorphic code. Modifying a piece of running code is also used in certain attacks, such as buffer overflows.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: FrankDK on June 25, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
My favorite language is APL (A Programming Language), an IBM-proprietary, matrix-oriented language.  I wrote a program to calculate the definite integral of any function over any domain, and did it in one line, including the input statement for the function and domain.

It was write-only code, though, because 20 minutes after you wrote the code, there was no way to decipher how it worked, so maintenance was basically impossible.

Still, it was fun.

Frank
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jutter on June 28, 2013, 08:01:40 PM
Even though I'm not into programming myself...

Logo: you know... that early-eighties programming-language with the little line-plotting turtle. The reason I believe it deserves some praise, is because it was probably the first proper attempt at making programming accesible to schoolkids. So for as far as you, as a programmer, find that honorable, the honorable mention is justified.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on June 29, 2013, 05:45:37 AM
Programming languages designed for children are perhaps the most important ones there are. Likewise, languages that let you build things that kids find cool.

In that sense, things like GameMaker and other game related frameworks are great, because they let children build things that they consider fun. Even if it's just movement on the screen; that's something you don't easily get from regular programming languages.

When I was really young I tried to make a program that showed rotating squares on the screen. I couldn't do it, because it was just too hard. These days, I can teach someone to do that in 5 minutes using a games-language. And it works, because they actually build something enjoyable. It motivates.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Colanth on July 11, 2013, 01:11:09 AM
40 years earning a living developing code.  I just stopped doing it professionally a little over a year ago.

Languages?  Almost everything that's come down the pike, from machine language (no, not assembly, binary or octal opcodes and operands, including jumps to operands to shoehorn code into RAM smaller than the executable and interrupts generated in software).  Forth has to be at the bottom of my list (including derivations like STOIC).  Not difficult to work with, and very powerful, but when you have to come back to the real world it's a shock.  Reality isn't Polish.

Frank, APL isn't the only "write-only" language.  You can write a function in C without a single line break.  (You can also end up in a rubber room if you try to debug it.)

Plu, I spent my last 15 years writing in VB (supporting legacy apps - the guy in the next cube supported a load of COBOL stuff) and PHP.  I have no problem with PHP - it's the kind of language that doesn't make you think about the language when you're trying to get something done.  I even used it for desktop apps, if they weren't too complex.  (The only free compiler I know of is kind of trivial.)

I don't think I'll be doing much more programming, though.  If you don't do it every day, you forget things, and I have too much to do (retirement isn't easy) to spend a few hours a day writing code.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Moriarty on February 20, 2014, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: "Plu"Or maybe we'll just start with "do you know how to program?"

I'm a professional PHP programmer by trade, but I think the language is kinda shitty.

At home I mostly program in Lua right now, which is awesome. For something as old at it is, it seems to be able to do a few things that I haven't really seen any other language do. Like multiple return values on functions. Or variable swapping.

I agree completely, I hate PHP.

Unfortunately the programming language I'm best at is one that isn't used much and even less in my degree field of databases. RPG IV. So easy.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Icarus on February 20, 2014, 02:05:07 PM
I've used R on occasion. It's not the most popular language but it's standard for a variety of bioinformatics packages.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: The Fly on February 26, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
Which one would you all suggest for a base language to start off with. I took a Java class in high school 7 years ago, but I didn't retain much of the information. I'd like to learn a programming language at some point, but I have no idea where to start.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jason78 on February 26, 2014, 09:21:31 AM
Try Pascal.  It was originally invented as a teaching language.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on February 26, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Why do you want to learn to program, and what kinds of things do you want your programs to do? I'd say that's the first step in learning.

(Unless you're the kind of person who doesn't mind trudging through weeks of theory before actually doing something with their new knowledge, because I'm assuming right now that you want the learning itself to also be an enjoyable experience :D)
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: The Fly on February 26, 2014, 09:34:15 AM
I don't really know how to explain this lol, but I just want have enough base knowledge to figure out how to manipulate various apps that have an API such as Instapaper and what have you. Plus I figured if there was a fairly easy one to learn for my first one it'd give me enough knowledge to be able to connect the dots when studying other languages on my own to figure them out.

But thanks Jason, I am actually looking at a wikipedia page of Pascal right now just to sort of get an idea of what its about.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on February 26, 2014, 09:38:51 AM
If you want to communicate with web-based APIs consider starting with PHP. It's designed for that kind of thing and it's very relaxed and open which makes it great for new programmers.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: The Fly on February 27, 2014, 02:11:03 PM
Quote from: "Plu"If you want to communicate with web-based APIs consider starting with PHP. It's designed for that kind of thing and it's very relaxed and open which makes it great for new programmers.

Thanks for the tip. I am going to make a trip to the book store and see if they have any educational books on the subject later this week.

I gotta get on this programming language thing otherwise when robots are running for president in 50 years, I am going to have a hard time staying informed. :)
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Jason78 on February 27, 2014, 02:24:07 PM
PHP is an utter pig to use though.   It's hardly a language that encourages best practices.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: wolf39us on February 27, 2014, 03:08:20 PM
Quote from: "Jason78"PHP is an utter pig to use though.   It's hardly a language that encourages best practices.

agreed
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: Plu on February 27, 2014, 03:15:54 PM
And that's exactly why it's a good choice to start with. Nothing is more boring than "best practices", especially if you're a new user. When you start out, you want to be able to have something that works and you want to be able to play around. PHP does those things really well and gives you results quick, and that's motivational.

I would recommend switching out if you want to get serious about things and try out some stricter languages, to learn advanced topics, but for start stuff it's great.
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: wolf39us on February 27, 2014, 04:09:38 PM
Remember  -->  ;

is your worst enemy

edit:  and your best friend
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: RobbyPants on April 01, 2014, 09:35:26 PM
Quote from: Plu on June 21, 2013, 09:03:47 AM
Or maybe we'll just start with "do you know how to program?"

I'm a professional PHP programmer by trade, but I think the language is kinda shitty.

At home I mostly program in Lua right now, which is awesome. For something as old at it is, it seems to be able to do a few things that I haven't really seen any other language do. Like multiple return values on functions. Or variable swapping.

I write software for a living. I primarily write in C#. The websites I do for work are in ASP.net and JavaScript. I use a lot of SQL as well. I used VB in my last job.

Back in college, I primarily used C and Java. I also dabbled in Python, Pascal, Scheme (derived from LISP), and Bash.

For fun, I do Doom modding. That's primarily in something called DECORATE, and the scripts are in ACS (Action Combat Script. Heavily C-based).
Title: Re: Favorite programming languages?
Post by: aileron on April 01, 2014, 11:41:52 PM
I wouldn't say I have a favorite.  Programming languages are like tools in a box.  You pick the right one for the task at hand.  For general-purpose managed memory uses I agree with Jason, C# is a good choice.  It kinda sucks that you're stuck with Mono outside of Windows, but Mono has improved quite a bit over the years.