Hello. I'm a 30 year old male atheist from England.
I am interested in debate, being logical, and philosophy.
I look forward to some interesting discussions here.
Hi luckswallowsall!
Welcome to the forum, I hope you'll have as much fun here as we do. Have you always been atheist, or were you, like many of us, a convert?
Hi,
I like being illogical and ramble on.
Greetings, fellow Devil Worshiper. Our weekly indoctrination rituals are held on Wednesday nights, and they are BYOB: Bring Your Own Babies. We supply the fire pit and the dipping sauce.
I have no idea of what you speak of. This is a forum for cooking.....I have no idea what atheist means...thought it was a pinache pan....
It's a forum for foraminifera.
Welcome, luck.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 26, 2018, 04:15:16 PM
Hello. I'm a 30 year old male atheist from England.
I am interested in debate, being logical, and philosophy.
I look forward to some interesting discussions here.
Welcome 30 year old male atheist from England. How did you become an atheist?
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 26, 2018, 04:20:19 PM
Have you always been atheist, or were you, like many of us, a convert?
I never believed in a religion. I live in the UK where it is less religious... and when Christianity was taught to me at school I always assumed that the bible was just stories like Aesop's Fables that my dad used to read to me as a child.
I never believed in Jesus or took any of the stories literally. I just thought Jesus was a nice guy, not the actual son of God. I assumed that that was just part of the story.
However, I did believe that a god created life... as I didn't know about evolution until I was 10 years old. When I learned of evolution at the age of 10... I stopped believing in a god right that day. I remember saying to my dad "But if life can just evolve... then what does god do?" and my dad couldn't answer. As my dad was kind of agnostic himself.
So that's it really. I was a deist until age 10. I've been an atheist ever since.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 26, 2018, 04:43:07 PM
Hi,
I like being illogical and ramble on.
I also like to ramble on.
But if you like being illogical then we may not get along very well!
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 26, 2018, 05:04:46 PM
Greetings, fellow Devil Worshiper. Our weekly indoctrination rituals are held on Wednesday nights, and they are BYOB: Bring Your Own Babies. We supply the fire pit and the dipping sauce.
Oh I'm not a Satanist... I'm just an atheist. I think Satanism is as illogical as Christianity.
What do you mean about the baby part?
Quote from: Cavebear on September 26, 2018, 11:49:40 PM
Welcome 30 year old male atheist from England. How did you become an atheist?
By learning of evolution at about age 10.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 06:57:34 AM
I never believed in a religion. I live in the UK where it is less religious... and when Christianity was taught to me at school I always assumed that the bible was just stories like Aesop's Fables that my dad used to read to me as a child.
I never believed in Jesus or took any of the stories literally. I just thought Jesus was a nice guy, not the actual son of God. I assumed that that was just part of the story.
However, I did believe that a god created life... as I didn't know about evolution until I was 10 years old. When I learned of evolution at the age of 10... I stopped believing in a god right that day. I remember saying to my dad "But if life can just evolve... then what does god do?" and my dad couldn't answer. As my dad was kind of agnostic himself.
So that's it really. I was a deist until age 10. I've been an atheist ever since.
Congratulations and welcome to the club. I hope you stay that way.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 06:58:18 AM
I also like to ramble on.
But if you like being illogical then we may not get along very well!
That was just me being a contrarian. I tend to be mostly rational and down-to-earth logical for the most part.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 06:57:34 AM
However, I did believe that a god created life... as I didn't know about evolution until I was 10 years old. When I learned of evolution at the age of 10... I stopped believing in a god right that day. I remember saying to my dad "But if life can just evolve... then what does god do?" and my dad couldn't answer. As my dad was kind of agnostic himself.
I was about that age when I first heard about evolution. That was 65 years ago. My dad told me about it, and it just made sense. My dad had a close fundamentalist friend named Bernie, and my dad told me that Bernie didn't believe in evolution. So one day Dad, Bernie, and I were walking down the side walk, and I asked Bernie why he didn't believe in evolution. Bernie picked up a green leaf that had fallen from a tree, and showed it to me, not that I'd never looked at a leaf before. I mean what little did never picked up a leaf and wondered about it? He pointed out the shape and the tiny veins that crept through it forming a random pattern that carried the nutrients to all the parts. He said, "This is just too complicated to be an accident." I politely acknowledged, but I understood enough about evolution to realize that shape and random patterns didn't mean it couldn't have happened over years of tiny changes. It was like Bernie thought that one day all the parts of a fully formed leaf just came into being, and presto! We had trees from that day on.
Years later, I heard about irreducible complexity of the eye and how an eye couldn't develop over time, and I thought, "Gee, that sounds just like Bernie."
Quote from: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:01:01 AM
Congratulations and welcome to the club. I hope you stay that way.
Well, I'd only become a theist if (a)God actually existed (b)I was having an episode of psychosis.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 11:22:00 AM
That was just me being a contrarian. I tend to be mostly rational and down-to-earth logical for the most part.
So you're rational at least when you're not being contrarian?
As for down-to-earth... depends what you mean really. If being down-to-earth means having commonsensical non-counterintutive ideas, and following basic intuitions, then being down to earth is often being less rational, if we mean rational in the sense of logical, as common sense and intuition is often incorrect and largely mistaken.
Quote from: SGOS on September 27, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
I was about that age when I first heard about evolution. That was 65 years ago. My dad told me about it, and it just made sense. My dad had a close fundamentalist friend named Bernie, and my dad told me that Bernie didn't believe in evolution. So one day Dad, Bernie, and I were walking down the side walk, and I asked Bernie why he didn't believe in evolution. Bernie picked up a green leaf that had fallen from a tree, and showed it to me, not that I'd never looked at a leaf before. I mean what little did never picked up a leaf and wondered about it? He pointed out the shape and the tiny veins that crept through it forming a random pattern that carried the nutrients to all the parts. He said, "This is just too complicated to be an accident." I politely acknowledged, but I understood enough about evolution to realize that shape and random patterns didn't mean it couldn't have happened over years of tiny changes. It was like Bernie thought that one day all the parts of a fully formed leaf just came into being, and presto! We had trees from that day on.
Years later, I heard about irreducible complexity of the eye and how an eye couldn't develop over time, and I thought, "Gee, that sounds just like Bernie."
Thank you for the story. It was an enjoyable read.
Quote from: SGOS on September 27, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
I was about that age when I first heard about evolution. That was 65 years ago. My dad told me about it, and it just made sense. My dad had a close fundamentalist friend named Bernie, and my dad told me that Bernie didn't believe in evolution. So one day Dad, Bernie, and I were walking down the side walk, and I asked Bernie why he didn't believe in evolution. Bernie picked up a green leaf that had fallen from a tree, and showed it to me, not that I'd never looked at a leaf before. I mean what little did never picked up a leaf and wondered about it? He pointed out the shape and the tiny veins that crept through it forming a random pattern that carried the nutrients to all the parts. He said, "This is just too complicated to be an accident." I politely acknowledged, but I understood enough about evolution to realize that shape and random patterns didn't mean it couldn't have happened over years of tiny changes. It was like Bernie thought that one day all the parts of a fully formed leaf just came into being, and presto! We had trees from that day on.
Years later, I heard about irreducible complexity of the eye and how an eye couldn't develop over time, and I thought, "Gee, that sounds just like Bernie."
Yes, that is typical theist thinking. You can't get from A to Z, and I agree. But you can get from A to B and B to C, etc. And that is what theists either cannot "get" or refuse to accept.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 26, 2018, 04:15:16 PM
Hello. I'm a 30 year old male atheist from England.
I am interested in debate, being logical, and philosophy.
I look forward to some interesting discussions here.
Welcome also. Several Brits here. And some Brit fans.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 26, 2018, 04:43:07 PM
Hi,
I like being illogical and ramble on.
Stop that! That is my job!
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 11:58:23 AM
So you're rational at least when you're not being contrarian?
Yes.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 11:58:23 AMAs for down-to-earth... depends what you mean really. If being down-to-earth means having commonsensical non-counterintutive ideas, and following basic intuitions, then being down to earth is often being less rational, if we mean rational in the sense of logical, as common sense and intuition is often incorrect and largely mistaken.
I think you're reading too much into it. I mean "down-to-earth logical" as in not having lofty ideals ... a pragmatist rather, if you will. I'm well aware of how counterintuitive a lot of stuff is, just look at optical illusions and be visually fooled says a lot about how our brains work. I take everything, no matter what, with a grain of salt - even mathematical proofs.
Quote from: Baruch on September 27, 2018, 12:51:03 PM
Stop that! That is my job!
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/034/337/graham_chapman_stop_that_silly.jpg)
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 03:15:00 PM
I mean "down-to-earth logical" as in not having lofty ideals ... a pragmatist rather, if you will.
I understand that down-to-earth refers to being practical or pragmatic. That is why I mentioned common sense and intuition.
What I mean is... sometimes the most practical and pragmatic answer that is most useful... is actually factually incorrect... and what goes against common sense and intuition.... is often impractical, but nevertheless true.
QuoteI'm well aware of how counterintuitive a lot of stuff is, just look at optical illusions and be visually fooled says a lot about how our brains work. I take everything, no matter what, with a grain of salt - even mathematical proofs.
Do you take a grain of salt to be a grain of salt though? Or do you take the notion of a grain of salt being a grain of salt with a grain of salt?
If so, do you take your taking of a grain of salt with a grain of salt, and if so doesn't that make your grain-of-salt-taking itself at least partially self-defeating?
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 03:23:16 PM
I understand that down-to-earth refers to being practical or pragmatic. That is why I mentioned common sense and intuition.
What I mean is... sometimes the most practical and pragmatic answer that is most useful... is actually factually incorrect... and what goes against common sense and intuition.... is often impractical, but nevertheless true.
Which is why I gave the example of visual illusions; a clear violation of the efficiency of intuition.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 03:23:16 PM
Do you take a grain of salt to be a grain of salt though? Or do you take the notion of a grain of salt being a grain of salt with a grain of salt?
If so, do you take your taking of a grain of salt with a grain of salt, and if so doesn't that make your grain-of-salt-taking itself at least partially self-defeating?
Yes, nothing is outside the scope of doubt, even "doubt".
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 03:32:02 PM
Which is why I gave the example of visual illusions; a clear violation of the efficiency of intuition.
I'm glad you agree that intuition can be wrong. But I'm not glad that you're down-to-earth. But only because I'm opposed to pragmatism.
QuoteYes, nothing is outside the scope of doubt, even "doubt".
This sounds rather similar to the Socrates quote that the only thing that he knows is that he knows nothing. I'm always flabbergasted at the fact that no one else can seem to see Socrates' contradiction in terms there though. If he truly knows nothing then he can't even know that he knows nothing... so for him to say that knowing nothing is the only thing he knows is a contradiction, because knowing that he knows nothing is in fact knowing something, not knowing nothing, so he can't know nothing, if he really knows that he knows nothing, he must at least know something. So to refer to it being the "only" thing he knows... makes no sense... when he says that that one thing he knows is "nothing" because "nothing" is not a thing, and if he truly knows nothing, then he can't know that. Or he'd be knowing something (and 'round and 'round we go). Socrates' quote is self-defeating. What he should say is "I don't know anything
except the fact that I can't know anything else." or "I know almost nothing. The only thing I know is that I don't know anything else besides this fact.")
But I'd still wonder how he supposedly knows this. It seems kind of silly to hold onto the knowledge of zero knowledge when zero knowledge is literally the
only thing that
can't possibly be known. If there's one category of things that isn't knowable then that category is the unknowable . . .
Quote from: Cavebear on September 26, 2018, 11:49:40 PM
How did you become an atheist?
How does anyone become anything other than an atheist?
Quote from: SGOS on September 27, 2018, 11:50:53 AM
I was about that age when I first heard about evolution. That was 65 years ago. My dad told me about it, and it just made sense. My dad had a close fundamentalist friend named Bernie, and my dad told me that Bernie didn't believe in evolution. So one day Dad, Bernie, and I were walking down the side walk, and I asked Bernie why he didn't believe in evolution. Bernie picked up a green leaf that had fallen from a tree, and showed it to me, not that I'd never looked at a leaf before. I mean what little did never picked up a leaf and wondered about it? He pointed out the shape and the tiny veins that crept through it forming a random pattern that carried the nutrients to all the parts. He said, "This is just too complicated to be an accident." I politely acknowledged, but I understood enough about evolution to realize that shape and random patterns didn't mean it couldn't have happened over years of tiny changes. It was like Bernie thought that one day all the parts of a fully formed leaf just came into being, and presto! We had trees from that day on.
Years later, I heard about irreducible complexity of the eye and how an eye couldn't develop over time, and I thought, "Gee, that sounds just like Bernie."
So, a single leaf outsmarted Bernie. That's awesome.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
How does anyone become anything other than an atheist?
indoctrination ... at any age. It only requires uncritical acceptance. And it takes years of deprogramming to get rid of, at least, it did for me.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
How does anyone become anything other than an atheist?
By developing a belief in at least one god.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 03:47:15 PM
By developing a belief in at least one god.
Lots of that kool aid around.
My intent, however, was to indicate that you have to become theistic, it's not a natural state of humans.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:59:36 PM
Lots of that kool aid around.
My intent, however, was to indicate that you have to become theistic, it's not a natural state of humans.
Indeed. And yet, incredibly, some theists will even insist that we're born with a subconscious belief in God embedded in us. They can never justify such a claim, of course.
I even once had a theist tell me that because I believe in objective moral values then this means I'm a theist because to them all that "God" means is "the highest value"... and when I told them that they had just made up their own definition of the word God in order for them to call me a theist... they insisted that "God" referring to nothing more than "the highest value" is the most standard definition of a deity, and that people who believe that God has to involve a creation of the universe have bastardized the definition . . .
My response was to say: "Oh, wow, all this time I thought I was an atheist but I just learned today that I'm a theist even though I don't believe the universe was created and I don't even believe there's any sort of intelligence or design embedded within the universe! You learn something new every day!".
The churchmen sell an intangible product (Heaven) that requires no production facility, no resources, and no personnel to produce it. Then they charge people for the privilege of getting a piece of this nothing. They have to keep the demand up or they'll have to go out and maybe do some actual work. The means they've found is to glam onto any other intangible, such as morals and ethics, as being part of their production. It's a sweet system for the quasi-vampiric priests.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 04:55:40 PM
The churchmen sell an intangible product (Heaven) that requires no production facility, no resources, and no personnel to produce it. Then they charge people for the privilege of getting a piece of this nothing. They have to keep the demand up or they'll have to go out and maybe do some actual work. The means they've found is to glam onto any other intangible, such as morals and ethics, as being part of their production. It's a sweet system for the quasi-vampiric priests.
Don't forget Hell... that one comes much more in handy than Heaven when it comes to controlling people. Fear is a great motivator when people are too lazy to work for Heaven.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 04:55:40 PM
The churchmen sell an intangible product (Heaven) that requires no production facility, no resources, and no personnel to produce it. Then they charge people for the privilege of getting a piece of this nothing. They have to keep the demand up or they'll have to go out and maybe do some actual work. The means they've found is to glam onto any other intangible, such as morals and ethics, as being part of their production. It's a sweet system for the quasi-vampiric priests.
Yes. A brilliant business plan. Jealous much?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
How does anyone become anything other than an atheist?
Its a big world out there, and we are not at all alike.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 03:46:49 PM
indoctrination ... at any age. It only requires uncritical acceptance. And it takes years of deprogramming to get rid of, at least, it did for me.
But are you now Mac or Windows ... hmm?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:59:36 PM
Lots of that kool aid around.
My intent, however, was to indicate that you have to become theistic, it's not a natural state of humans.
The natural state of humans is approximately X hydrogen, Y oxygen, Z carbon etc. Mix all that in a petri dish and voila ... human.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 04:57:03 PM
Don't forget Hell... that one comes much more in handy than Heaven when it comes to controlling people. Fear is a great motivator when people are too lazy to work for Heaven.
Humans are too lazy to work for a job on Earth. We are natural slackers. Starvation cures that.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 06:59:19 AM
Oh I'm not a Satanist... I'm just an atheist. I think Satanism is as illogical as Christianity.
What do you mean about the baby part?
As all true unbelievers know, we serve the devil despite not believing in God. Of course, since we lack any objective rules for morality, there's nothing to stop us from raping and killing each other. Babies are a common treat served at atheist gatherings. It's like the donuts and coffee at church, except a bit messier and a lot more screaming. You must be pretty new at this. Don't worry. We'll be here to show you the ropes. BTW, I'm being sarcastic, if you haven't figured that out yet. lol
Welcome to our little band of heathens, Luck.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
How does anyone become anything other than an atheist?
That is the most direct and clearest statement I have ever heard!
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 28, 2018, 12:08:48 AM
As all true unbelievers know, we serve the devil despite not believing in God.
Atheism doesn't imply Satanism at all. That is just a non-sequitur.
QuoteOf course, since we lack any objective rules for morality,
Atheism doesn't imply non-relativism either. That is yet again a non-sequitur. I myself am both an atheist and a moral realist.
Quotethere's nothing to stop us from raping and killing each other.
There's lots of things to stop us from raping and killing each other.
QuoteBabies are a common treat served at atheist gatherings.
This is absurd. Atheists are no more cannibalistic than theists. Absolutely nothing about atheism implies cannibalism nor does it entail the consumption of infants. Once again that is a non-sequitur.
QuoteIt's like the donuts and coffee at church, except a bit messier and a lot more screaming.
Eating a baby would not have to be done messily at all. I can think of many ways a person could consume an infant in a discreetly non-messy way.
But, again, regardless of this... consumption of infants has nothing to do with atheism. Almost zero human atheists and theists alike consume human babies. That is an extremely uncommon practice for humans in general, regardless of their beliefs. If only because one would go to prison after doing so even if their cooked flesh would not cost any funding and would perhaps taste as delicious as pork.
QuoteYou must be pretty new at this.
New to what? Internet forums? Actually I am a seasoned forumer and have forumed a great deal more posts elsewhere on another forum than anyone else here at this website.
QuoteDon't worry. We'll be here to show you the ropes. BTW, I'm being sarcastic, if you haven't figured that out yet. lol
And in case you haven't figured it out, my apparent inability to get your sarcasm and my apparent falling for the simplest and most obvious quips about atheists being baby-eaters was apparent on my part but not actual. I myself was also being ironic and any lack of a sense of humor I appear to have is a lack that is illusory. Not appearing to get obvious jokes can itself be far funnier than the jokes when the jokes themselves have been so overused (or when almost nothing makes me laugh nowadays, not due to a lack of a sense of humor, but due to a brilliant sense of humor that eventually became so desensitized that one's funny bone melted in the cooking pot faster than the stereotypical atheist's first born son).
Your appreciation of the snarc is, well, appreciated. You wouldn't believe the silly things we atheists get accused of sometimes.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 03:16:10 PM
Your appreciation of the snarc is, well, appreciated. You wouldn't believe the silly things we atheists get accused of sometimes.
You are even accused of silliness.
Quote from: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 07:15:37 PM
You are even accused of silliness.
Well, sometimes I respond to you in equal terms. I probably shouldn't. Demeans me in a way...
"but you make me laugh"...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 06:45:55 AM
Well, sometimes I respond to you in equal terms. I probably shouldn't. Demeans me in a way...
"but you make me laugh"...
As a distant relative of Presidents and monarchs ... I disinfect my hands after a post, since peasants have cooties.
Quote from: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 08:32:50 AM
As a distant relative of Presidents and monarchs ... I disinfect my hands after a post, since peasants have cooties.
Well, genetic distribution makes us ALL a distant relative of SOMEONE important. And remember, you are breathing in an O2 molecule of a T Rex with every breath. But also a skunk, LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
Well, genetic distribution makes us ALL a distant relative of SOMEONE important. And remember, you are breathing in an O2 molecule of a T Rex with every breath. But also a skunk, LOL!
T Rex was a feminist. It has been shown that the female was bigger than the male.
Quote from: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 01:20:19 PM
T Rex was a feminist. It has been shown that the female was bigger than the male.
Yep, the general rule for reptiles. So?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 03:41:20 PM
Yep, the general rule for reptiles. So?
Perhaps Trump is related ... small hands ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 07:38:44 PM
Perhaps Trump is related ... small hands ;-)
Smaller monetary empire more likely. I bet he isn't worth a billion. I might even catch up...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 04:07:17 AM
Smaller monetary empire more likely. I bet he isn't worth a billion. I might even catch up...
That is the problem with accounting ... what with credits and debits. And just how real, is real estate anyways?
Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 05:14:06 AM
That is the problem with accounting ... what with credits and debits. And just how real, is real estate anyways?
Less real than his tax returns, apparently. Naming rights aren't ownership.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Less real than his tax returns, apparently. Naming rights aren't ownership.
But I thought it was all about the branding. That is what they taught in Marketing!
Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 08:27:30 PM
But I thought it was all about the branding. That is what they taught in Marketing!
Marketing is finding people who are already your customers and convincing management that you found them for them..
Quote from: Cavebear on October 14, 2018, 09:46:29 AM
Marketing is finding people who are already your customers and convincing management that you found them for them..
Branding .. what you do to cattle.
Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2018, 10:05:03 AM
Branding .. what you do to cattle.
One might note that I have no tattoos. Same thing.