In a poll of 548 researchers evenly distributed across the continents, the United States was ranked the 10th worse country for women, with our sexual and domestic violence rankings amongst the worst in the world.
http://poll2018.trust.org/
QuoteT
he United States ranked as the 10 most dangerous country for women, the only Western nation to appear in the top 10. The United States shot up in the rankings after tying joint third with Syria when respondents were asked which was the most dangerous country for women in terms of sexual violence including rape, sexual harassment, coercion into sex and the lack of access to justice in rape cases. It was ranked sixth for non-sexual violence.[/c]
When people say that women in the United States don't have anything to bitch about, or that feminists are being overdramatic and, "OMG WHAT ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA!", tell them where they can shove it. Yes, we aren't as bad as Saudi Arabia... but the fact that we are close is fucking embarrassing.
and climbing.
Seriously doubt that.
Life for women is hard anywhere, always has been. And they will be happy to tell you all about it. Commiserating ... they want you to be as miserable as they are. I really don't care what any poll says about anything or anyone ... total false news. Move to Somalia if you like it better there.
To avoid making too many threads...
https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/24/health/maternal-mortality-trends-double-texas/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/24/health/maternal-mortality-trends-double-texas/index.html)
QuoteThe good news is that maternal mortality rates are declining worldwide. The bad news? The situation for women in the United States is a glaring exception. And in Texas, where clinics serving women have shuttered and their health interests have been battled all the way up to the US Supreme Court, the rate of pregnancy-related deaths more than doubled over the course of two years.
...
Of 183 countries and territories studied from 1990 to 2013, only 17 saw maternal mortality rate percentage increases, the World Health Organization report "Trends in Maternal Mortality: 1990 to 2013" showed. In the United States, the maternal mortality rate grew by 136% over those 23 years, more than any other country studied.
I have my doubts about the methodology of the study, but at the end of the day the United States is getting worse and worse for women rather than better, and that really should not be a "left", "social", "feminist" issue but rather an everyone issue. The fact that our domestic abuse numbers are equivalent to Middle Eastern numbers, or that we are regressing in terms of women's health and women's rights, should concern everyone.
Yes, since about 1970 (thanks to generation 60s) the US has been getting poorer, for almost everyone. There is hardly any blue collar work, and the white and pink collar work has been wage suppressed since Reagan. This negatively impacts women and children ... the men are simply killing themselves. Of course it didn't help that the 60s brought marriage destroying feminism and maturity destroying spoliation of the children.
Greening of America? ... been saying no since 1970. The ongoing subversion by the Soviet Union, Red China, and Castro's Cuba continues. All Fifth Columnists ... are traitors.
Quote from: Baruch on June 30, 2018, 12:58:21 AM
Life for women is hard anywhere, always has been. And they will be happy to tell you all about it. Commiserating ... they want you to be as miserable as they are. I really don't care what any poll says about anything or anyone ... total false news. Move to Somalia if you like it better there.
You are un fucking believable.
Quote from: Mermaid on June 30, 2018, 10:41:04 AM
You are un fucking believable.
Probably Somalia isn't your style. That is for the bat shit capitalists who hate all government. Socialists love government, as long as it is their "one party".
People who have never lived in Scandinavia/Finland who think it is paradise should move there. Much less desert like than Somalia too.
pardon me, but why were all the other countries on that list of worst places to live for woman glossed over and only focused on america?
(https://i.imgur.com/oUxdk7k.jpg)
just seems like it be an interesting question as to why women in those other 9 countries have it pretty bad.
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 11:41:00 AM
pardon me, but why were all the other countries on that list of worst places to live for woman glossed over and only focused on america?
(https://i.imgur.com/oUxdk7k.jpg)
just seems like it be an interesting question as to why women in those other 9 countries have it pretty bad.
Because it is a CNN propaganda. Color me surprized.
Swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the adoring fans.
Quoteardon me, but why were all the other countries on that list of worst places to live for woman glossed over and only focused on america?
Honestly dude, what answer do you want me to give? I have answered this time and time and time again, but I'll go ahead and throw the several reasons out there yet again...
1. I am an American. Hence American politics and American society is more relevant to me than Somalian, Yemeni, Indian, politics. I am more than happy to talk politics or social issues within those societies, but they are not things I am going to go out of my way to look up unless it is something really drastic (the gang rape and murder cases in India, the civil war in Syria, shit like that) or I just randomly catch an article on it that looks interesting.
If you want to start threads on those topics, I am more than happy to read them and discuss them if they catch my interest. Just because I make a thread on one topic is not stopping you from starting a thread on another if you find it worth discussing.
But I don't even get particularly involved on here in British politics or society, and they are arguably about as American as you can get without being American. The few I do get involved on are again more prominent and out-of-the-norm stories, generally with ramifications towards me (Brexit and xenophobia cases) which ties into one of my next answer.
2. Shitty as it may be, women having terrible living standards in Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, Nigeria is par for the course. We know why women are treated badly in those countries; religious oppression, social oppression, poor economies, war, and so on and so forth. These countries all share either the fact they are a theocracy, poor as fuck or are war torn countries, or all three.
The United States does not particularly fit any of those criteria. We are one of the richest nations on Earth, our wars are fought on foreign soil rather than our own, and while one of our major parties is about as close to a theocracy as you can get... I like to think that we are nowhere near the theocratic level of a place like SA or Pakistan. So when we are that much different from the others, it's shocking to see us ranked as poorly as they are.
Let me put it this way; if a Ferrari, a Lambo, an Aston Martin, and a guy on a pogo stick set the fastest laps around a race track, would you say, "pardon me, why are all the other vehicles on the list glossed over and you are only focusing on the guy on the pogo stick? Is it because you hate pogo sticks?"
Like, no, it's because it's a dude on a fucking pogo stick... and no, it's because we are arguably one of the most powerful and wealthy nations to ever exist in human history, and yet in terms of treating our citizens with respect we are being compared to "shithole" countries. When something out of the norm happens, people focus on it. We are as out-of-place being compared to fucking Somalia and Pakistan as a pogo stick is being compared to a Ferrari, and yet here we are.
Quotejust seems like it be an interesting question as to why women in those other 9 countries have it pretty bad.
And you are 100% free to ask that question, or look into it yourself; I even posted the link that goes directly to why those countries ranked the way they did. It's not like that information is being withheld, and I assume everyone here is aware of many of the reasons those countries are ranked very poorly for women.
I just don't buy for a second that you actually find that question interesting, but rather find that question a convenient way to try to distract from the actual issue being discussed, because if it's not "the other guy over there" doing something wrong than your not interested in hearing about it, but even more importantly don't seem to want anyone else to talk about it either.
Quote from: pr126 on June 30, 2018, 11:56:35 AM
Because it is a CNN propaganda. Color me surprized.
Swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the adoring fans.
Psychological projection;
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is habitually intolerant may constantly accuse other people of being intolerant. It incorporates blame shifting.
According to some research, the projection of one's unconscious qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life.[2].
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 11:41:00 AM
pardon me, but why were all the other countries on that list of worst places to live for woman glossed over and only focused on america?
(https://i.imgur.com/oUxdk7k.jpg)
just seems like it be an interesting question as to why women in those other 9 countries have it pretty bad.
America must be destroyed ... vampire Putin and emperor Xi have decreed it. That and the Bilderbergers.
Y'all can argue over sources and statistical abuses ... without me. You order food from the menu, you don't eat the damn menu!
Things are pretty bad for women in Egypt, their sexual harassment in public is way up over the past generation.
This is for Shiranu ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8WSysB5vKM&list=PLt2RtHRI8Tyj6BViOsH9IocKubQFsR7r2
Another, courtesy of women outside of the home ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH1KeMsQ1UA&list=PLt2RtHRI8Tyj6BViOsH9IocKubQFsR7r2&index=6
The Minority Victim Value Index (https://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-minority-victim-value-index.html)
QuoteLiberals have seized the commanding heights of the moral high ground by presenting themselves as the protectors of minorities and vowing to replace one racist system with an equally racist, anti-racist system. But caste systems aren't just black and white and the rainbow coalition has internal conflicts. What do liberals do when different groups within the rainbow coalition conflict and how do they make that determination?
It's not a new question. Black men got the vote before white women did, and that very issue led to a heated debate over universal suffrage in the Fourteenth Amendment, which was written to include black men, but exclude women. Suffragists were told in Fredrick Douglass' words, "This is the Negro's hour." To explain why that was the hour on the clock, Douglass brought out what would become the Victim Value Index.
"When women because they are women are dragged from their houses and hung upon lamp-posts... then they will have the urgency to obtain the ballot equal to our own," Douglass sneered. Women had been dragged out of their homes and subjected to horrors because they were women for far longer than the brief few centuries of African slavery in America, but Douglass' real point was, "My suffering beats your suffering, so my rights beat your rights." In contemporary progressivism this is expressed in the sneering "White Women's Tears" meme.
QuoteSeptember 11 and its aftermath is why Muslims have gone to the top of the Victim Value Index. The left may swear up and down that they are interested in Muslim civil rights, but if the Muslims were Sikhs, they would merit a place somewhere in the back. Before Muslims began prominently blowing things up in the United States, the left barely paid any attention to them. Once they did, they began outweighing every other group in the country because killing 3,000 people is the gold standard of revolutionary mayhem.
Women aren't a minority, numerically. In many places Muslims aren' a minority. Atheists and gays usually are a minority in most places. I don't have much worry for women or Muslims being oppressed.
But remember, politics is just social psychology ... and a mentally diseased body politics is just that. Ultimately a medical problem. I consider much of the revolutions to be ergot induced. That and yeast infections in women.
Quote from: Baruch on June 30, 2018, 02:07:11 PM
I don't have much worry for women or Muslims being oppressed.
That's cause you're not either of those.
Quote from: Mermaid on June 30, 2018, 02:47:20 PM
That's cause you're not either of those.
And I can whine about being Jewish (in part). But really, since we are the Chosen People who control every nation on Earth, would you want to hear that?
Muslims are a minority in the US. Women are not. And I have a lot more direct experience with women. I know Muslims mostly from study.
Quote from: Baruch on June 30, 2018, 03:09:38 PM
And I can whine about being Jewish (in part). But really, since we are the Chosen People who control every nation on Earth, would you want to hear that?
Muslims are a minority in the US. Women are not. And I have a lot more direct experience with women. I know Muslims mostly from study.
Experience WITH women is not experience AS a woman.
Quote from: Mermaid on June 30, 2018, 07:04:21 PM
Experience WITH women is not experience AS a woman.
its kinda hard to experience something as a woman when your not one, what do you suggest?
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 07:21:37 PM
its kinda hard to experience something as a woman when your not one, what do you suggest?
Listening to people who actually know firsthand.
Quote from: Mermaid on June 30, 2018, 07:35:35 PM
Listening to people who actually know firsthand.
so what your saying is they need to experience it with women.
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 07:46:32 PM
so what your saying is they need to experience it with women.
No. I am saying is that you need to LISTEN to women.
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 07:46:32 PM
so what your saying is they need to experience it with women.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xKTpzyMo9bAdP2/giphy.gif)
I cant even.
She literally a single post earlier just said that "experience with women is not the same as experience as a woman.".
You are literally quoting a post where she is saying that men need to listen to what women say rather than just assume that they know everything there is to know about a woman's experience because "they know a woman, so clearly I am the expert!".
In a quote where she is asking for you to listen to her, you are literally doing the exact opposite and telling her what she is "really" saying, which is to do the
exact thing she said not to do only one post earlier.
oh dear, well I guess I'm a terrible person then.
Just for the record, I don't give a shit about anyones gender when they're talking to me, its only if they have something worth listening to.
that's real equality.
Quoteoh dear, well I guess I'm a terrible person then.
(https://i.imgflip.com/2d76g1.jpg)
No one is calling you terrible, stop being so melodramatic.
Quotethat's real equality.
Wow, someone deserves a pat on the back.
"I am willing to treat women equally... I will dismiss and talk over them asking for equal treatment just as much as I would a man! See, I am all about that pro-equality!"
Of the same cloth of, "I treat women equally... I would punch a woman in the face just as soon as a man! That's real equality!"
Quote from: Shiranu on June 30, 2018, 09:46:45 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/2d76g1.jpg)
No one is calling you terrible, stop being so melodramatic.
Apathy is a hard one to get across in text.
QuoteWow, someone deserves a pat on the back.
"I am willing to treat women equally... I will dismiss and talk over them asking for equal treatment just as much as I would a man! See, I am all about that pro-equality!"
Of the same cloth of, "I treat women equally... I would punch a woman in the face just as soon as a man! That's real equality!"
I never said I talk over them, I just zone out if their boring. Surprisingly learned that from watching sex in the city.
And if the woman was deserving of a punch she should get one, or do you want chivalry brought back where women are made to wait at home while the man does all the hard work?
QuoteApathy is a hard one to get across in text.
Mhmm. Nothing screams apathy like arguing from thread after thread after thread.
QuoteI never said I talk over them...
Oh don't worry, you never had to say it. It was loud and clear as it was.
QuoteAnd if the woman was deserving of a punch she should get one, or do you want chivalry brought back where women are made to wait at home while the man does all the hard work?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/7SDs1LY3YWhji/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
oh dear, well I guess I'm a terrible person then.
Just for the record, I don't give a shit about anyones gender when they're talking to me, its only if they have something worth listening to.
that's real equality.
Thank you for demonstrating with clarity what much of the issue is.
I suspect things are getting better for women in the US today. There is discussion, there are women speaking up, there are women running for political office, etc. Women are speaking up against harassment and winning approval for doing so. Harassing and more evil individual men are getting punished for their actions. How is that worse?
Opressors = White Male
Oppressed = Every one else.
Quote from: pr126 on July 02, 2018, 02:44:21 AM
Opressors = White Male
Oppressed = Every one else.
No, idiot males white or not, abusing women. And thinking they are right to do it.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 02:48:10 AM
No, idiot males white or not, abusing women. And thinking they are right to do it.
But in the feminist world, only white males are doing it.
Ask any feminist if Muslim males are abusing their women.
All you hear is crickets. Or put on a hijab in solidarity.
QuoteBut in the feminist world, only white males are doing it.
Fuck on out of here with that bullshit.
QuoteAsk any feminist if Muslim males are abusing their women.
They can. Just like any other male in any other society.
QuoteAll you hear is crickets.
Might want to get the batteries on your hearing aids replaced then.
Quote from: pr126 on July 02, 2018, 04:20:36 AM
But in the feminist world, only white males are doing it.
Ask any feminist if Muslim males are abusing their women.
All you hear is crickets. Or put on a hijab in solidarity.
Oh PR... C'mon man. You can't believe that. Only lately did Saudi women get even the right to drive a CAR! Or attend college. What would you think about that for yourself? Are you daft? Structural and forcible denial of basic rights of movement and education IS abuse, plain and simple.
Somehow I don’t think that American feminist have influenced SA King to let their women drive.
Quote from: pr126 on July 02, 2018, 06:15:27 AM
Somehow I don’t think that American feminist have influenced SA King to let their women drive.
You might be surprised. The whole world started watching Saudi Arabia and the men said "OK Fine, let the women drive a car". Its the least small step, but a first one.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 02:05:48 AM
I suspect things are getting better for women in the US today. There is discussion, there are women speaking up, there are women running for political office, etc. Women are speaking up against harassment and winning approval for doing so. Harassing and more evil individual men are getting punished for their actions. How is that worse?
Don't contradict a woman when she is speaking. Better yet, don't speak at all.
Some men have, and many men yet should ... get what is coming to them.
But the evil women do is simply different than the usual male kind. It isn't better evil.
Things have changed over 50 years ... some things better, some things worse. Progress or regress is in the eyes of the beholder. To some, all women in America are in Pink FEMA camps, getting groped by Trump.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 04:58:08 AM
Oh PR... C'mon man. You can't believe that. Only lately did Saudi women get even the right to drive a CAR! Or attend college. What would you think about that for yourself? Are you daft? Structural and forcible denial of basic rights of movement and education IS abuse, plain and simple.
Saudi Arabia, the gift that keeps on giving ... oil and terrorists. Therefore all Christian or Jewish men are evil ;-)
And yes, in our culture women abuse occurs every day. But we are so much superior to the rag-heads, right?
How about more ad hominems from Shiranu, or bigotry from you? Yes, every place on the planet should be like the gay district in San Francisco.
Quote from: Munch on June 30, 2018, 09:25:50 PM
oh dear, well I guess I'm a terrible person then.
Just for the record, I don't give a shit about anyones gender when they're talking to me, its only if they have something worth listening to.
that's real equality.
You just aren't Woke enough ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 02:05:48 AM
I suspect things are getting better for women in the US today. There is discussion, there are women speaking up, there are women running for political office, etc. Women are speaking up against harassment and winning approval for doing so. Harassing and more evil individual men are getting punished for their actions. How is that worse?
It's a process for sure. Are things better for us than they were 40 years ago? I'd say so. But right now, at this time of upheaval, there are a lot of angry, marginalized, low-information men like PR (and, sadly, plenty of women) who are getting louder and louder. They vote. The American people have somehow managed to get that pig into the white house. And we have a senate who has stolen a SCOTUS appointee from the last administration and a president who is about to appoint another, and who is not shy about making sure we know he intends to choose one who wants to work to overturn RvW. And we have an fucking uber-Christian, moronic VP who has dedicated his life to subjugating women and taking away our rights to control our own lives and bodies among other putrid agendas.
Abortion and access to reproductive and women's healthcare are no small thing, but they are just one topic that's now up for yet more debate. Why are we even TALKING about this? It's 2018.
Oh do I sound angry? A little. I am fucking angry.
Quote from: pr126 on July 02, 2018, 04:20:36 AM
But in the feminist world, only white males are doing it.
Ask any feminist if Muslim males are abusing their women.
All you hear is crickets. Or put on a hijab in solidarity.
I feel like you are making things up in your head and getting angry about it, and are impermeable to new information.
For the record, I am a feminist, do I count? This is bullshit. And I feel the exact same way about most other religions. Much of Christianity sucks, Orthodox Judaism sucks, Islam sucks, etc.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 02, 2018, 08:55:06 PM
For the record, I am a feminist,
I never would have guessed.
QuoteIt's a process for sure. Are things better for us than they were 40 years ago? I'd say so. But right now, at this time of upheaval, there are a lot of angry, marginalized, low-information men like PR (and, sadly, plenty of women) who are getting louder and louder. They vote. The American people have somehow managed to get that pig into the white house. And we have a senate who has stolen a SCOTUS appointee from the last administration and a president who is about to appoint another, and who is not shy about making sure we know he intends to choose one who wants to work to overturn RvW. And we have an fucking uber-Christian, moronic VP who has dedicated his life to subjugating women and taking away our rights to control our own lives and bodies among other putrid agendas.
Abortion and access to reproductive and women's healthcare are no small thing, but they are just one topic that's now up for yet more debate. Why are we even TALKING about this? It's 2018.
Oh do I sound angry? A little. I am fucking angry.
And, you honestly have no reason to be. I'm guessing you weren't even alive 40 years ago, but were you are in the world and in this time in history, your in a pretty decent part of it, you have so dam much to be thankful for, but instead you scrap the barrel to try and find anything to get angry at instead of thinking of the good shit you do have.
Fact you'd sooner look for things to get angry at instead of thinking how good you actually have it speaks more about yourself then the system around you.
Maybe I should be this angry, I'm a 37 year old gay man living in the uk currently unemployed lead by a conservative government. But I would sooner count all the good shit both in the land around me and what I have, and I'd way sooner be where I am right now then anywhere in the past and a lot of other countries that don't have it this relaxed.
My only concern day to day is finding a stable job. I don't have to fear about medication for my medical condition, I don't have to worry about having a roof over my head due to support, I don't have to worry about the power going out or being arrested for what I am, I don't have to worry about going hungry, I don't have to worry about catching a disease due to free health checkups, and I can sit here on my pc typing all this with a cup of tea and honey I brought at the local tescos. I can even get training and support to break into newer career paths which I've been doing, for free.
If you live in a country where you have so much shit supporting you and making life relaxed, to the point you need to find something to be aggravated over instead of being thankful for the stuff you do have, then your not seeing the wood for the trees.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 02, 2018, 08:49:33 PM
It's a process for sure. Are things better for us than they were 40 years ago? I'd say so. But right now, at this time of upheaval, there are a lot of angry, marginalized, low-information men like PR (and, sadly, plenty of women) who are getting louder and louder. They vote. The American people have somehow managed to get that pig into the white house. And we have a senate who has stolen a SCOTUS appointee from the last administration and a president who is about to appoint another, and who is not shy about making sure we know he intends to choose one who wants to work to overturn RvW. And we have an fucking uber-Christian, moronic VP who has dedicated his life to subjugating women and taking away our rights to control our own lives and bodies among other putrid agendas.
Abortion and access to reproductive and women's healthcare are no small thing, but they are just one topic that's now up for yet more debate. Why are we even TALKING about this? It's 2018.
Oh do I sound angry? A little. I am fucking angry.
I hear you. And I am very angry, as well. I am not a woman, but my wife is and so is my daughter. I live seeing my wife being treated differently when she steps out of her traditional bounds. We live in a very good-old-boy area and one that is heavily christian. Women are expected to keep to their place. My daughter lives in the Bay Area, yet still is exposed to dual expectations in their social world and work place. My niece is also a homosexual (and a woman), and so she has traditional and non-traditional stuff to deal with. I am not female nor homosexual and therefore cannot experience first hand what they do. But I can, and do, listen.
Utopians are idealists, but also revolutionaries who want 100% of what they want, right now. Mental cases. But then we all are.
Quote from: Munch on July 02, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
I never would have guessed.
This is apparently some sort of insult. Good for you!
QuoteAnd, you honestly have no reason to be. I'm guessing you weren't even alive 40 years ago, but were you are in the world and in this time in history, your in a pretty decent part of it, you have so dam much to be thankful for, but instead you scrap the barrel to try and find anything to get angry at instead of thinking of the good shit you do have.
I am 55. Not sure why you are trying to verbally pat me on the head to tell me I am naive, but whatever.
QuoteFact you'd sooner look for things to get angry at instead of thinking how good you actually have it speaks more about yourself then the system around you.
Maybe I should be this angry, I'm a 37 year old gay man living in the uk currently unemployed lead by a conservative government. But I would sooner count all the good shit both in the land around me and what I have, and I'd way sooner be where I am right now then anywhere in the past and a lot of other countries that don't have it this relaxed.
My only concern day to day is finding a stable job. I don't have to fear about medication for my medical condition, I don't have to worry about having a roof over my head due to support, I don't have to worry about the power going out or being arrested for what I am, I don't have to worry about going hungry, I don't have to worry about catching a disease due to free health checkups, and I can sit here on my pc typing all this with a cup of tea and honey I brought at the local tescos. I can even get training and support to break into newer career paths which I've been doing, for free.
If you live in a country where you have so much shit supporting you and making life relaxed, to the point you need to find something to be aggravated over instead of being thankful for the stuff you do have, then your not seeing the wood for the trees.
First of all, you don't even live in my country.
I am angry that women's rights to our own bodily autonomy are constantly under fire because of the religious groups in this country. Why wouldn't this make me angry?
I don't fit whatever model of feminist you have in your head, I guess. Shrug.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 03, 2018, 08:10:24 AMI am 55. Not sure why you are trying to verbally pat me on the head to tell me I am naive, but whatever.
Because father knows best, and wimminfolk should step back and let the
men sort out the big social issues. /s
Quote from: Mermaid on July 03, 2018, 08:10:24 AM
I am angry that women's rights to our own bodily autonomy are constantly under fire because of the religious groups in this country. Why wouldn't this make me angry?
I don't fit whatever model of feminist you have in your head, I guess. Shrug.
Mermaid, the first person to make me aware of the plight of women was my grandfather. Both my grandfather and grandmother (mother's side) were immigrants from Sweden. My grandfather was not an intellectual--he had not even finished grade school--he was a lumberjack. But he told me that women had it harder than men from the time I can remember. And he had a huge disdain for clergy--he explained that the local Lutheran church had burned down, and that when it was excavated to rebuild it, dozens of baby skeletons had been unearth; that ended his respect for clergy of any kind. And he lived a respect for my grandmother and his daughters and they for him--that was their normal state--respect. They passed that ideal down to my mother; my mother and father had their tussles, but clearly she was not one to let convention guide much of her actions. She was her own person and my father respected that. She did not demonstrate nor join any feminist groups, but supported those groups when they popped up locally. So, that is the type of feminist I am, if you want to label it that, for I do think as my grandfather did; women innately have a more difficult life to live. And what makes me so, so fucking angry now, is that women's rights to their own bodies are being questioned again (thought that fight was over) and regressive laws are being passed daily. That makes me angry for the life my daughter and granddaughters will have to live and the continuous battles they will have to fight. I feel your pain.
"Other people have it worse, so how DARE you complain or want to make yours and other peoples' lives better!"
Nah, fuck that noise.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 03, 2018, 09:09:31 AM
Because father knows best, and wimminfolk should step back and let the men sort out the big social issues. /s
There are women who hate men, and men who hate men ... but they aren't misogynists ... we have a different adjective for them ...
Sorry, straight people aren't going to disappear (or gay people) ... and masculine and feminine behavior isn't going to disappear (no matter how variant your body or choice of clothing).
Life is unfair, to everyone. Get over it.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 03, 2018, 08:10:24 AM
This is apparently some sort of insult. Good for you!
I am 55. Not sure why you are trying to verbally pat me on the head to tell me I am naive, but whatever.
First of all, you don't even live in my country.
I am angry that women's rights to our own bodily autonomy are constantly under fire because of the religious groups in this country. Why wouldn't this make me angry?
I don't fit whatever model of feminist you have in your head, I guess. Shrug.
So join the fishwives of Paris, and burn down all the churches, mosques and synagogues already. The majority will know what to do. The war against men and against women, will continue, until we are extinct.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 03, 2018, 09:25:13 AM
Mermaid, the first person to make me aware of the plight of women was my grandfather. Both my grandfather and grandmother (mother's side) were immigrants from Sweden. My grandfather was not an intellectual--he had not even finished grade school--he was a lumberjack. But he told me that women had it harder than men from the time I can remember. And he had a huge disdain for clergy--he explained that the local Lutheran church had burned down, and that when it was excavated to rebuild it, dozens of baby skeletons had been unearth; that ended his respect for clergy of any kind. And he lived a respect for my grandmother and his daughters and they for him--that was their normal state--respect. They passed that ideal down to my mother; my mother and father had their tussles, but clearly she was not one to let convention guide much of her actions. She was her own person and my father respected that. She did not demonstrate nor join any feminist groups, but supported those groups when they popped up locally. So, that is the type of feminist I am, if you want to label it that, for I do think as my grandfather did; women innately have a more difficult life to live. And what makes me so, so fucking angry now, is that women's rights to their own bodies are being questioned again (thought that fight was over) and regressive laws are being passed daily. That makes me angry for the life my daughter and granddaughters will have to live and the continuous battles they will have to fight. I feel your pain.
Unless you give birth, you will never feel their pain, or hear the end of it if you ever got a woman pregnant. From Sweden then? No wonder you are socialist ;-))
This is why young men today, refuse to date women at all. Better to be a monk or priest ... than to put up with feminine behavior. If I had known what was coming, I would have refused too. But fortunately I didn't know the future like so many prophets here.
Jesus. You say the most assholish things.
Quote from: Baruch on July 03, 2018, 12:37:09 PM
Unless you give birth, you will never feel their pain,
That is a given. That's why 'listening' is important. Women can never experience life as a man and a man cannot experience life as a woman. We all see and experience life through our own unique lens. But that does not mean one cannot be supportive to others or try as best one can, understand their viewpoints and experiences. I can never experience life as a black, Asian, Indian or anything but as a white male. That does not mean I can't listen to all and keep my eyes open and pay attention to what is going on around me.
As for being from Sweden I am half Swedish. The other half is woodshed Texan. My dad was from a redneck Texas cotton mill town and his father was a drunk (mill worker) and his mother much the same (except she chewed tobacco). He did not visit nor mention them much. So, I guess I can lay claim to most ever ethnic group out there. (Maybe not Chinese since there were not many there)
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 03, 2018, 12:51:23 PM
That is a given. That's why 'listening' is important. Women can never experience life as a man and a man cannot experience life as a woman. We all see and experience life through our own unique lens. But that does not mean one cannot be supportive to others or try as best one can, understand their viewpoints and experiences. I can never experience life as a black, Asian, Indian or anything but as a white male. That does not mean I can't listen to all and keep my eyes open and pay attention to what is going on around me.
As for being from Sweden I am half Swedish. The other half is woodshed Texan. My dad was from a redneck Texas cotton mill town and his father was a drunk (mill worker) and his mother much the same (except she chewed tobacco). He did not visit nor mention them much. So, I guess I can lay claim to most ever ethnic group out there. (Maybe not Chinese since there were not many there)
Yes, see Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. Don't know which planet is more inhospitable ;-)
However we share a common humanity ... and in that, we know what other people experience to a degree. And an imagination helps. The idea that nothing about a woman is comprehensible to a man, implies she is a uber-frau or an under-frau. I reject that notion. It would be like claiming Africans aren't the same species as Europeans (yeah, there are small genetic variations, but that isn't what people mean by that).
Quote from: Mermaid on July 03, 2018, 12:49:34 PM
Jesus. You say the most assholish things.
This is deliberate on my part. Tough love I call it.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 02, 2018, 08:49:33 PM
It's a process for sure. Are things better for us than they were 40 years ago? I'd say so. But right now, at this time of upheaval, there are a lot of angry, marginalized, low-information men like PR (and, sadly, plenty of women) who are getting louder and louder. They vote. The American people have somehow managed to get that pig into the white house. And we have a senate who has stolen a SCOTUS appointee from the last administration and a president who is about to appoint another, and who is not shy about making sure we know he intends to choose one who wants to work to overturn RvW. And we have an fucking uber-Christian, moronic VP who has dedicated his life to subjugating women and taking away our rights to control our own lives and bodies among other putrid agendas.
Abortion and access to reproductive and women's healthcare are no small thing, but they are just one topic that's now up for yet more debate. Why are we even TALKING about this? It's 2018.
Oh do I sound angry? A little. I am fucking angry.
You and I are in total agreement. I don't need to repeat what you posted because I agree. But I will add that Trump is a sick, sick person, Pence is a toady underving of the office he holds, and most Republicans are somewhere between crazy, inane, an insane.
Any group of people who would steal a child being breast-fed from the mother in false statement, use children as pawns for political games, and demand immigrants asking for legal asylum be charged with crimes for doing so, are not the kind of people I will accept running our Government.
My best dream lately is that Trump dies of a heart attack... And I bet Pence has the same dream often...
I have issues with this poll.
The first issue is this is a
poll, when there is a fair amount of hard data that may be brought to bear on each of these issues. For instance, there are various metrics to assess health care for women that do not depend on opinions of anyone â€" like tracking demographic data on mortality/complications of various illnesses, and noting differences based on sex. While they may be hard to interpret, they are based upon real-world results rather than anyone's (or even everyone's) opinion.
The second issue is what makes someone an expert, such that their opinion would be of better quality than a person off the street? "Expert" is a nebulous term. From their website:
QuoteThose interviewed included aid and development professionals, academics, health workers, policymakers, non-government organisation workers, journalists, and social commentators.
That's a wide brush to paint with the term "expert" or having expertise in matters of women's issues. Say what you will about brainwashed academics, most of these people should not be considered "experts" on any subject matter with a wide scope. Academics spend their lives poring over the available data and would in principle have a wide scope on the matter. The rest are at best trenches-level; their involvement is immediate and necessarily restricted in scope.
Problem the third. 548 respondents.
DAT SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! Gallup
et al are known to use limited samples, but they get away with it because they have deeply researched estimates of the biases of their respondents, yet even they don't use sample sizes
that small (2000 minimum is the Gallup standard, and that's with bias squeezers). Furthermore, anyone who has been tracking polls in the past few decades would do well to recall that while polls offer a clue about what actual results in elections would be, they are often quite off in the actual results.
Forth problem. The fact that world's worsts are ranked first, rather than given a score on each category to then be aggregated and the ranking based on that. This makes the poll a ranked voting situation, with all the problems therein. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem) No fancy mathematics can fix that problem (which is why it's Arrow's
impossibility theorem). This links directly back to point 1; scoring systems have many fewer anomalies than ranked systems. There isn't even an attempt to control for these anomalies.
Fifth problem, related to problem 2 above. Even if we were to accept the above list as experts, their expertise would be only in areas related to their field. In any other field, their opinions would be no better than a non-expert. If we were to assume an even spread of expertise across all fields, this is at minimum a signal-to-noise ratio of 1:5 â€" one really good opinion to five no-better-than-background opinions. That's
terrible. In any non-even spread, one of the categories would be
secretly weighted, a prospect that sends the statistician in me into conniptions.
Sixth problem. This poll claims to be anonymous with all respondents "unless the Foundation contacted them later to seek an on-the-record comment." I think that detail is rather important. It's not really 'anonymous' is it? After all, the Foundation knew who the experts were; there is no reasonable expectation to anonymity here.
This poll is garbage. It has the seeming of a real study, but none of the substance. As such, the probative value of this poll is quite small. In the top nine assessments, it at least is in line with what we expect out of these countries. The US is the anomaly, but because of what I think are good reasons to not put too much trust in this poll, that's all I see here: an anomaly in a particular poorly-controlled study which really shouldn't change anyone's opinion much.
The general professional polls are all in basic agreement. So I don't care about your objection to a couple.
My beef is only about this particular poll. Don't read too much into it.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 04, 2018, 01:22:54 AM
My beef is only about this particular poll. Don't read too much into it.
Did I misunderstand your post?
Everyone here loves their confirmation bias ... including me. Poll or expert ... if other people agree with me, they are right, because I am Wile E Coyote, Genius!
Quote from: Cavebear on July 04, 2018, 01:29:15 AM
Did I misunderstand your post?
Are you disagreeing with my objections to this particular poll? If so, I'd like to know.
Bad data is bad, even (and especially) when it agrees with your opinions. That's the essence of skepticism. I don't care if this poll agrees with general professional polls (though I want to examine their methodology, too), it's still a badly-conducted poll and a bad data point to be expunged. The conclusion of the Thomson Reuter Foundation poll is shocking in its conclusion (Dat USA), but given what I know about how it was conducted, that's
all it is.
And it's a poll. It tells you much more about the attitudes of the people you're asking than it does about the real world. A study using data like mortality figures, crime statistics, and the like, is much preferred because even with all the trouble in interpreting that brings, it's about the real world we live in rather than a bunch of second-hand accounts, made third-hand by mushing them together with mathematical voodoo.
I think it's good to question research methods, Hakurei. I wish more people questioned sources like this and made educated, informed conclusions.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 04, 2018, 10:03:58 AM
I think it's good to question research methods, Hakurei. I wish more people questioned sources like this and made educated, informed conclusions.
It may be a fact that a lot of people are unhappy, even if the methodology isn't "scientific". That is a politically important thing. Perception is everything in politics, just ask Marie Antoinette.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 04, 2018, 09:30:55 AM
Are you disagreeing with my objections to this particular poll? If so, I'd like to know.
Bad data is bad, even (and especially) when it agrees with your opinions. That's the essence of skepticism. I don't care if this poll agrees with general professional polls (though I want to examine their methodology, too), it's still a badly-conducted poll and a bad data point to be expunged. The conclusion of the Thomson Reuter Foundation poll is shocking in its conclusion (Dat USA), but given what I know about how it was conducted, that's all it is.
And it's a poll. It tells you much more about the attitudes of the people you're asking than it does about the real world. A study using data like mortality figures, crime statistics, and the like, is much preferred because even with all the trouble in interpreting that brings, it's about the real world we live in rather than a bunch of second-hand accounts, made third-hand by mushing them together with mathematical voodoo.
Polls are tricky. Opt-in polls collect more opinions from viewers of a site than the general public and cannot be trusted. Some specific polls are geared to generate specific results and ask questions designed to get specific answers.
I took a few classes in college about surveys and polls and learned I could get almost any results I wanted. And I was good at it. But I didn't pursue that career because I didn't trust it except in some few very professional ones.
Okay what you do is go online,
Go to Amazon.
Type in "how to Lie with Statistics"
Buy that shit.
Wait for it...
......
.....
.....
Fucking Read it.
I fucked up in not clarifying that I find many of the methodology of this report questionable. I do, I even thought about that when I posted this and didn't say anything, so yeah... that's on me. I fucked up.
The fact remains however that both in this polls opinion, and in much of the civilized world's opinion, we seem to lagging behind every other developed nation in how women are treated and how we are perceived in treating our women. That is the reality of our situation, be it a fully accurate opinion or not.
The (second) most powerful nation in the world, the leader of the free world, the "shining city upon a hill", should never be uttered in the same breath as places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. We should be putting European nations to shame, not viewed in the same light as third world countries and fundamentalist states.
We are the most prestigious nation in the world and yet the rest of the world looks at us and laughs. We are a joke at best, and a disgrace to Western culture and democracy at worse.
So Munch, if you want as bluntly-as-possible reason as to why I find issue with my country, why I focus on our flaws, it's because I take pride in what we use to symbolise and I am fucking disgusted with what we now present to the world. I am critical of America because I adore what it is suppose to stand for but despise that what it practices is anything but just.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 09, 2018, 03:08:53 AM
I fucked up in not clarifying that I find many of the methodology of this report questionable. I do, I even thought about that when I posted this and didn't say anything, so yeah... that's on me. I fucked up.
The fact remains however that both in this polls opinion, and in much of the civilized world's opinion, we seem to lagging behind every other developed nation in how women are treated and how we are perceived in treating our women. That is the reality of our situation, be it a fully accurate opinion or not.
The (second) most powerful nation in the world, the leader of the free world, the "shining city upon a hill", should never be uttered in the same breath as places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. We should be putting European nations to shame, not viewed in the same light as third world countries and fundamentalist states.
We are the most prestigious nation in the world and yet the rest of the world looks at us and laughs. We are a joke at best, and a disgrace to Western culture and democracy at worse.
So Munch, if you want as bluntly-as-possible reason as to why I find issue with my country, why I focus on our flaws, it's because I take pride in what we use to symbolise and I am fucking disgusted with what we now present to the world. I am critical of America because I adore what it is suppose to stand for but despise that what it practices is anything but just.
I don't need a poll to agree with you in general. Women are not treated equally.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 03:12:46 AM
I don't need a poll to agree with you in general. Women are not treated equally.
Men aren't treated equally. How much do you pay your Mexican yard man? Nobody is equal, burn the Declaration, it is over!
Quote from: Cavebear on July 04, 2018, 01:13:20 AM
My best dream lately is that Trump dies of a heart attack...
I'd rather he be eaten alive by an anaconda.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 09, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
I'd rather he be eaten alive by an anaconda.
Don't like snake hugs? Speciesist?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 09, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
I'd rather he be eaten alive by an anaconda.
Well, as long as the eventual outcome is the same... I'm not particularly fussy about the method.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 02:50:15 PM
Well, as long as the eventual outcome is the same... I'm not particularly fussy about the method.
You would give the poor snake, a bad case of hair ball ;-)
I think Chump's hair is made from asbestos, that's why he relaxed the regulations on the stuff:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/07/11/approved-by-donald-trump-asbestos-sold-by-russian-company-is-branded-with-the-presidents-face/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.42f6b7731391
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 13, 2018, 02:38:49 PM
I think Chump's hair is made from asbestos, that's why he relaxed the regulations on the stuff:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/07/11/approved-by-donald-trump-asbestos-sold-by-russian-company-is-branded-with-the-presidents-face/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.42f6b7731391
Just setting himself up for the future when his presidency ends
Unfortunately, he'll probably die a natural death to end his presidency.
But then, I'm a pessimist, so maybe I'm wrong - I sure hope so. I hope he'll be out for criminal activity.
Quote from: Munch on July 13, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
Just setting himself up for the future when his presidency ends
An all American tradition, just ask Obama.
Quote from: Munch on July 13, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
Just setting himself up for the future when his presidency ends
If he wasn't a billionaire prior to being president, he will be when he leaves office. He and his family are being made rich beyond belief.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 13, 2018, 09:32:16 PM
If he wasn't a billionaire prior to being president, he will be when he leaves office. He and his family are being made rich beyond belief.
Jealous much? You are free to follow Jesus' advice, give away all you have, and enter into holy poverty ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on July 13, 2018, 11:58:36 PM
Jealous much? You are free to follow Jesus' advice, give away all you have, and enter into holy poverty ;-))
Much like Mousetrap you love to make pronouncements and then consider it so. Either that or you love to make inane statements about what somebody has posted. This time you have done both. Why don't you join mousetrap on an island somewhere where you can unite happily ever after?
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 14, 2018, 09:03:23 AM
Much like Mousetrap you love to make pronouncements and then consider it so. Either that or you love to make inane statements about what somebody has posted. This time you have done both. Why don't you join mousetrap on an island somewhere where you can unite happily ever after?
There was a guy, who joined here shortly after I did, 3 years ago. A Brit. He didn't stay long. His complaint was ... we are all a bunch of hateful SOBs. So to quote President Reagan ... "there you go again" ... but not so bad.
I am sure you will be at the Place Du Concorde shouting with glee as the blade comes down. Revolutionaries are like that. Would you feel less jealous if the Federal Reserve printed up a palette of fresh $100 and send you one? How much will it take to buy off your envy?
BTW - I don't envy the rich. So I have no reason to hate them either. I do feel concern for the poor, that is why I am going to donate blood this morning. We are all ugly in some ways, myself included.
Quote from: Baruch on July 14, 2018, 09:19:34 AM
There was a guy, who joined here shortly after I did, 3 years ago. A Brit. He didn't stay long. His complaint was ... we are all a bunch of hateful SOBs. So to quote President Reagan ... "there you go again" ... but not so bad.
I am sure you will be at the Place Du Concorde shouting with glee as the blade comes down. Revolutionaries are like that. Would you feel less jealous if the Federal Reserve printed up a palette of fresh $100 and send you one? How much will it take to buy off your envy?
BTW - I don't envy the rich. So I have no reason to hate them either. I do feel concern for the poor, that is why I am going to donate blood this morning. We are all ugly in some ways, myself included.
How do you know how I feel about the rich? Or Trump for that matter? I don't envy anybody. What I do feel for the rich is their destructive greed. That is not envy--that is hatred. I don't envy anybody making money, especially from their own efforts or ideas. What I hate, tho, is making money off other people's sweat and work. Nobody should be allowed to gouge the people who work for them nor society in general. Giving welfare to oil companies falls into that category--the super rich do take care of each other so that they can make even more money. That is not envy--that is hatred. I have enough to last me to my last days; I am content in my own life. But Trump and company would take that if they could.
Yeah America is a corporatocracy. The handouts to corporations and banks seem to eclipse handouts to the poor in this country.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 14, 2018, 10:35:50 AM
How do you know how I feel about the rich? Or Trump for that matter? I don't envy anybody. What I do feel for the rich is their destructive greed. That is not envy--that is hatred. I don't envy anybody making money, especially from their own efforts or ideas. What I hate, tho, is making money off other people's sweat and work. Nobody should be allowed to gouge the people who work for them nor society in general. Giving welfare to oil companies falls into that category--the super rich do take care of each other so that they can make even more money. That is not envy--that is hatred. I have enough to last me to my last days; I am content in my own life. But Trump and company would take that if they could.
You convicted yourself. Do you read your own posts? I know you can, you are one of the smartest people here.
And I am sure, you have direct info on the Trump and Trump family business accounts, just like you also have the same with the Obamas and Clintons ... you are CPA for all of them, right?
Sorry, every tyrant will take all you have. There are how many tyrant/millionaires in the US? Several million I believe. Or you can just go communist, and shut down all the corporations in favor of government run agencies ;-) Cavebear and I would like that. Come into my DMV office, asking for a driver's license renewal ... and hear "Hell No".
Quote from: orcus on July 14, 2018, 10:54:31 AM
Yeah America is a corporatocracy. The handouts to corporations and banks seem to eclipse handouts to the poor in this country.
True ... the poor should get nothing ... who the hell do they think they are ;-)
If you want to help the poor, go and be a Jewish carpenter.
Unhappy people hate themselves, hate their friends and enemies, hate their relatives, hate their jobs, hate their government ... hate humanity. Like pr126 says with the Evil Emperor post ... feel the hate, let it flow thru you ... the US can be the next Revolutionary France, only without any culture.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 13, 2018, 09:32:16 PM
If he wasn't a billionaire prior to being president, he will be when he leaves office. He and his family are being made rich beyond belief.
I expect he's being (or will be) paid by Putin and his gang of oligarchs.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 14, 2018, 10:35:50 AM
I have enough to last me to my last days; I am content in my own life. But Trump and company would take that if they could.
Oh, they will.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 14, 2018, 01:45:48 PM
I expect he's being (or will be) paid by Putin and his gang of oligarchs.
They claim .. whoever they always are ... that Putin has stolen 40+ billion from Russia, into his Swiss bank account. So actually he could buy quite a few Trumps ;-)
Everyone in the US, per capita, owed $3000 per trillion dollars in debt to China. Add that up and basically the Chinese have the legal right to put the entire US into indentured servitude, making artificial teeth for FoxCon. It is so funny illiterates calling for free stuff ... the US is a total bankrupt.
Quote from: Munch on July 13, 2018, 03:40:15 PM
Just setting himself up for the future when his presidency ends
He campaigned for President for personal gain (after never expecting to win). The day he leaves office, he should be charged with multiple financial, treason, and tax crimes. And he knows it...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 17, 2018, 03:16:30 AM
He campaigned for President for personal gain (after never expecting to win). The day he leaves office, he should be charged with multiple financial, treason, and tax crimes. And he knows it...
Perhaps ... that is what happened in the Roman Republic. Is that you Cicero? Well Julius Caesar didn't want to die at the hands of a corrupt Senate. And Marc Anthony and Octavian finished off the corrupt Senators. Things didn't turn out so well for Crassus though, the wealthy guy, as general, in Syria. Hopefully an invasion from Canada will bring you all free medical care. The invasion from Mexico will bring you free tacos.
What would have happened to Roman crowds if like in 1968 or 2018 ... you had chanting Roman protestors chanting "Death to Rome"? Where is a Sulla when you need him?