A watched this video today by Theramin Trees on YouTube. He makes some very good points on the topic of beliefs, and whether or not they are automatically deserving of respect. He also uses visuals to help those like me who have short attention spans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_5yUXjXizQ
To summarize a few points, while the religious claim a social contract of mutual respect, wherein both theists and atheists respect each others' differences, it is in reality a one-sided agreement. Atheistic statements can stand up to scrutiny, and in fact, many welcome scrutiny. Theists, however, make baseless claims about reality, which cannot stand under scrutiny. Therefore, the only party to benefit from the arrangement of "mutual" respect are those who know they cannot justify their beliefs.
Also, beliefs are not harmless, but have a wide range of possible consequences, including the dehumanization of those who do not share their beliefs. The belief in Hell is one way people often dehumanize unbelievers. By reducing unbelievers to kindling in an eternal fire, the religious devalue human life to the extent that they will even openly cheer and celebrate the idea of those like Christopher Hitchens suffering eternal torment in Hell.
Respect isn't about ideas. It is about people. Just like Soylent Green. Next you will be saying that corporations are people ;-)
Basically, are you setting up criteria for "thought crime" commissar?
Quote from: Baruch on October 13, 2017, 08:20:21 PM
Respect isn't about ideas. It is about people. Just like Soylent Green. Next you will be saying that corporations are people ;-)
Basically, are you setting up criteria for "thought crime" commissar?
The video addresses the difference between respecting beliefs and respecting people. Theists, when appealing for immunity to scrutiny, confuse the two.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 13, 2017, 08:23:56 PM
The video addresses the difference between respecting beliefs and respecting people. Theists, when appealing for immunity to scrutiny, confuse the two.
Ape men confuse everything. You are not an uber-mensch, nobody is. I agree, scrutinize everything .. but don't hate people for stupidity, they can't help themselves.
Of course we don't apply this to sports, or political beliefs ... too much Thought Control for that. Kick the Church while it is down, yes? By all means, tear it all down. Humans don't deserve to live ... if you aren't perfect like the puritanical folks.
Quote from: Baruch on October 13, 2017, 08:28:00 PM
Ape men confuse everything. You are not an uber-mensch, nobody is. I agree, scrutinize everything .. but don't hate people for stupidity, they can't help themselves.
Of course we don't apply this to sports, or political beliefs ... too much Thought Control for that. Kick the Church while it is down, yes? By all means, tear it all down. Humans don't deserve to live ... if you aren't perfect like the puritanical folks.
It's rather telling that your gut response to criticism is such defensiveness. When personal beliefs are put to the test, it too often results in the theist perceiving it as a personal attack, rather than considering the merits of the argument. Why fear scrutiny unless you fear being proven wrong?
I'll also point out the irony in your suggestion of thought crime, given that the one who popularized the concept was none other than Jesus Christ of the Bible. Critical thought or scrutiny are the opposite of thought crime. While theists have been known to criminalize dissension from their sets of beliefs when they have the power, it's the secular approach to thinking that welcomes dissension in the pursuit of knowledge. The issue here is that theists know that their beliefs are fragile, and they love to hide behind this appeal of, "You respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours." As if atheists have anything to gain from a lack of discussion.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 13, 2017, 08:45:47 PM
It's rather telling that your gut response to criticism is such defensiveness. When personal beliefs are put to the test, it too often results in the theist perceiving it as a personal attack, rather than considering the merits of the argument. Why fear scrutiny unless you fear being proven wrong?
I'll also point out the irony in your suggestion of thought crime, given that the one who popularized the concept was none other than Jesus Christ of the Bible. Critical thought or scrutiny are the opposite of thought crime. While theists have been known to criminalize dissension from their sets of beliefs when they have the power, it's the secular approach to thinking that welcomes dissension in the pursuit of knowledge. The issue here is that theists know that their beliefs are fragile, and they love to hide behind this appeal of, "You respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours." As if atheists have anything to gain from a lack of discussion.
So are you a R-thought crime lord or a D-thought crime lord? I am wary of anyone defining "thought crime" or trying to punish it. I also think it is arrogant to think that one is wiser, smarter or more knowledgeable than any of the other ape men.
So if theists criminalize atheism ... atheists should respond in kind? Then more Stalinism please ;-( I don't respect D-party ideology for example ... if I was to respect any ideology. I respect human beings, in spite of them being R or D party voters. I have a lot harder time respecting politicians or other hardened criminals.
And no ... please, pull out your uzis and shoot each other. I will sell tickets. That and I'll open a funeral home, while the theists and anti-theists disrespect each other $$$
I think you are very narrow in thinking that the fictional character, Jesus, is the cause of all your problems ;-) I know of no society that has ever seriously tolerated dissent. Any real dissent threatens the survival of the society, or it is milk-toast. And real dissent, should be crushed. Threaten me, I crush you. Simple.
Respect IMO has to be earned. It is always the individual who gets respect,
The idea that a religion should be respected because it is a religion has been for a long time "enforced".
However, presently Christianity is not respected at all.
But Islam is.
So much so that any "disrespect" or criticism is deemed as
hate speech, pursued to the full extent of the law.
Offenders are ostracized, they can lose their livelihoods, fined, even imprisoned.
British police accused of ‘wasting time’ as hate speech arrests up almost 900% in some areas (https://www.rt.com/uk/406467-hate-crime-twitter-troll/#.Wd_ipQwo1Ks.twitter)
QuoteA staggering rise in online hate crime, as people are attacked over Twitter, Facebook and other social media sites, has led to a gigantic leap in arrests in Britain.
British police are arresting nine people per day for attacks on the internet as they attempt to clamp down on hate speech online.
In some areas, this is up almost 900 percent from 2014.
The number of people detained for alleged attacks over the internet has rocketed in two years as social media allows users to verbally attack others.
“Trolling†can cause serious distress and high-profile politicians and campaigners have been targeted, as well as celebrities and ordinary people.
Last year, more than 3,300 people were detained and questioned, according to the Times.
Police in London arrested 867 people last year while West Midlands police arrested 635 suspects.
The increase in the Midlands is staggering as figures showed an 877 percent rise in the number of arrests since 2014, when 65 people were detained.
Evidently, people are employed to monitor social media and report offenders to the police.
Not a joke (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863544/Private-Eye-police-satirical-joke-court-Ian-Hislop)
Thought crime (http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/barrow/Sacked-Barrow-police-officers-Facebook-post-was-offensive-towards-Muslims-7d399888-7944-476d-af17-ab7cfd724c46-ds)
Respect Islam or suffer the consequences.
But This is art (https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2012/sep/28/andres-serrano-piss-christ-new-york)
So is this (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-elephant-dung-virgin-mary-20150701-story.html)
British thought crime is getting tougher, if you as much as read a terrorist publication, you have broken the law. Bible anyone?
(http://samizdata.net/~pdeh/BigBrother1984_sml.gif)
Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2017, 12:10:59 AM
British thought crime is getting tougher, if you as much as read a terrorist publication, you have broken the law. Bible anyone?
Isn't the Quran a terrorist publication?
Q 8:60, 9:5, 47:4, 8:39, 2:193, and so on...
Hang on, people are banging on my door, I wonder who it is?
Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2017, 12:04:46 AM
So are you a R-thought crime lord or a D-thought crime lord? I am wary of anyone defining "thought crime" or trying to punish it. I also think it is arrogant to think that one is wiser, smarter or more knowledgeable than any of the other ape men.
So if theists criminalize atheism ... atheists should respond in kind? Then more Stalinism please ;-( I don't respect D-party ideology for example ... if I was to respect any ideology. I respect human beings, in spite of them being R or D party voters. I have a lot harder time respecting politicians or other hardened criminals.
And no ... please, pull out your uzis and shoot each other. I will sell tickets. That and I'll open a funeral home, while the theists and anti-theists disrespect each other $$$
I think you are very narrow in thinking that the fictional character, Jesus, is the cause of all your problems ;-) I know of no society that has ever seriously tolerated dissent. Any real dissent threatens the survival of the society, or it is milk-toast. And real dissent, should be crushed. Threaten me, I crush you. Simple.
Neither I or the creator of the video have suggested turning theism into a thought crime. The suggestion is to deny immunity to intellectual criticism that many theists try to grasp.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 14, 2017, 12:28:09 AM
Neither I or the creator of the video have suggested turning theism into a thought crime. The suggestion is to deny immunity to intellectual criticism that many theists try to grasp.
Nobody is free from intellectual criticism ... and nobody here is an intellectual ;-) But aren't you talking about the attempt by every asshole and butt-hurt group to turn themselves into an oppressed minority to be protected by the SJW stormtroopers?
When I brought up "thoughtcrime" I was thinking a thoughtcrime called context. In today's context, more in Europe and GB than in the US ... censorship is on the rise, with criminal penalties. It isn't enough for the Elite to have their hand in your pocket and up your ass, they want to attach puppet stings.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 13, 2017, 08:23:56 PM
The video addresses the difference between respecting beliefs and respecting people. Theists, when appealing for immunity to scrutiny, confuse the two.
Why should unsupported claims be respected? Why should people who want schools to teach your children that evolution is false be respected? Why should people who go around spouting bullshit be respected? Why should religions that preach murder and violence be respected? Not everything deserves respect. At one time, everyone here has probably done something that was disrespected, and if you're honest about it, you will admit that at least once in a while, you probably deserved it. Chronic idiots probably get more of it than others. I'm sure they think it's unfair. But that's what you expect from idiots.
Quote from: SGOS on October 15, 2017, 08:15:05 AM
Why should unsupported claims be respected? Why should people who want schools to teach your children that evolution is false be respected? Why should people who go around spouting bullshit be respected? Why should religions that preach murder and violence be respected? Not everything deserves respect. At one time, everyone here has probably done something that was disrespected, and if you're honest about it, you will admit that at least once in a while, you probably deserved it. Chronic idiots probably get more of it than others. I'm sure they think it's unfair. But that's what you expect from idiots.
Ape men throw shit. All their claims are unsupported ... once you get past 2+2=4 ... and most people don't believe that on payday, hence credit cards! I disrespect all beliefs ... the hard part is not disrespecting the people who are meme carriers. Typhoid Marys.
Respect is earned through deeds and how you live your life and treat others around you, not just granted because you believe whatever it is you believe or don't believe.
When someone demands respect from me they've already lost it.
Ah, respect is over-rated anyway. All I ask for is civility, not respect. I don't usually care what people think of me, which is what the desire for respect is all about.
If someone doesn't respect you, it can tell you a lot about what THEY are like.
Quote from: SGOS on October 15, 2017, 08:15:10 PM
If someone doesn't respect you, it can tell you a lot about what THEY are like.
buuuut, what if your someone who demands respect but don't earn it?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/061/664/1275937249093s.jpg)
Quote from: Shiranu on October 15, 2017, 09:02:35 PM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/061/664/1275937249093s.jpg)
Do you realize that your visual comment is racist?
I am triggered!
Quote from: Munch on October 15, 2017, 08:20:30 PM
buuuut, what if your someone who demands respect but don't earn it?
We can make demands on others all day long, but this has little bearing on whether our demands are met. You'll just have to suck it up like everyone else.
Quote from: pr126 on October 16, 2017, 01:27:34 AM
Do you realize that your visual comment is racist?
I am triggered!
(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/9950198/creepy-black-guy.jpg)
Quote from: Munch on October 15, 2017, 08:20:30 PM
buuuut, what if your someone who demands respect but don't earn it?
Are you talking about Trump, or police, or religion??? ;-)
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 15, 2017, 11:46:07 AM
Respect is earned through deeds and how you live your life and treat others around you, not just granted because you believe whatever it is you believe or don't believe.
When someone demands respect from me they've already lost it.
Which is why I don't respect theists much. They are all about beliefs and superstition and not about individuals much.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 01:06:16 AM
Which is why I don't respect theists much. They are all about beliefs and superstition and not about individuals much.
Isn't that the very definition of bigotry ... treating individuals per stereotype? This OP was about not giving automatic respect to ideology/theology. But you brought your real MO into it.
Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 06:57:56 AM
Isn't that the very definition of bigotry ... treating individuals per stereotype? This OP was about not giving automatic respect to ideology/theology. But you brought your real MO into it.
I specified it wasn't about individuals. Can't you even READ before you post?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 10:21:07 AM
I specified it wasn't about individuals. Can't you even READ before you post?
OK. I get lost in your cat litter ;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 15, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Ah, respect is over-rated anyway. All I ask for is civility, not respect. I don't usually care what people think of me, which is what the desire for respect is all about.
Exactly my position.
Quote from: Baruch on October 19, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
OK. I get lost in your cat litter ;-)
And where did CAT LITTER come into the discussion? Do I have to just put you on "ignore" again to be free of your nonsense?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 05:45:42 AM
And where did CAT LITTER come into the discussion? Do I have to just put you on "ignore" again to be free of your nonsense?
I didn't say "dirty" cat litter, did I?
Quote from: Baruch on October 23, 2017, 10:26:50 PM
I didn't say "dirty" cat litter, did I?
And I didn't say "dirty" either, did I? Half the objections you have to the ENTIRE WORLD, ALL OF EXISTENCE, are all in your frightened mind.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 08:15:21 AM
And I didn't say "dirty" either, did I? Half the objections you have to the ENTIRE WORLD, ALL OF EXISTENCE, are all in your frightened mind.
Disappointed ... not frightened. The world is a very disappointing place.
Quote from: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:23:40 PM
Disappointed ... not frightened. The world is a very disappointing place.
I suspect the world is more disappointing to theists who don't want to live here than it is to we atheists who know it is the only game in town...