A quote from a book by Ursula Le Guin"
"Fiction writers, at least in their braver moments, do desire the truth: to know it, speak it, serve it. But they go about it in a peculiar and devious way, which consists in inventing persons, places, and events which never did and never will exist or occur, and telling about these fictions in detail and at length and with a great deal of emotion, and then when they are done writing down this pack of lies, they say, There! That’s the truth!"
Anyway the people here are still commentary on Plato vs Homer.
Quote from: Baruch on September 24, 2017, 11:05:14 PM
A quote from a book by Ursula Le Guin"
"Fiction writers, at least in their braver moments, do desire the truth: to know it, speak it, serve it. But they go about it in a peculiar and devious way, which consists in inventing persons, places, and events which never did and never will exist or occur, and telling about these fictions in detail and at length and with a great deal of emotion, and then when they are done writing down this pack of lies, they say, There! That’s the truth!"
Anyway the people here are still commentary on Plato vs Homer.
Admiring Le Guin, I'll go for Homer for the story, and laugh at Plato for the illogic.
I'm rather convinced that fiction writers are well aware of their work being made up as they go along. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 28, 2017, 05:51:09 AM
I'm rather convinced that fiction writers are well aware of their work being made up as they go along. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.
You may not understand writers, then. They get into a world of their own. I'm sure you know the phrase "willing suspension of disbelief", but you may not understand how deeply writers get into that.
I've written a few dozen short stories. A few published in those cheap self-published group anthologies. Yeah, whoopee... But when I get an idea started, I am completed involved in it. The story goes places I never expected when I started.
The logic of the beginning brings you where you didn't expect. I started one short story about a cave shaman woman and her accolytes from 20KYA, and to my surprise, I killed her in favor of one acolyte. I'm not joking; I was surprised myself. The rest of the story got better because that one acolyte was more interesting AND it was important that the older shaman died...
And I had no idea of that when I started the story!
Quote from: Cavebear on September 28, 2017, 06:47:37 AM
You may not understand writers, then. They get into a world of their own. I'm sure you know the phrase "willing suspension of disbelief", but you may not understand how deeply writers get into that.
I've written a few dozen short stories. A few published in those cheap self-published group anthologies. Yeah, whoopee... But when I get an idea started, I am completed involved in it. The story goes places I never expected when I started.
The logic of the beginning brings you where you didn't expect. I started one short story about a cave shaman woman and her accolytes from 20KYA, and to my surprise, I killed her in favor of one acolyte. I'm not joking; I was surprised myself. The rest of the story got better because that one acolyte was more interesting AND it was important that the older shaman died...
And I had no idea of that when I started the story!
That is what human life is, you are living out your own fiction, but you don't know what happens on the next page.
I think it should be a law, yes a law, that everyone must write a book. I spent years on mine and never had it published, but it was a tremendous learning experience in all kinds of stuff.
You see, nearly 25 years ago, long before Hitchens and Harris or Dawkins I thought I would write a book on musings on being an atheist. The title? "Atheist in the Midst" ...get it? aitm? anyhoo....
I wrote short "essays" on topics from practically everything and how I, being an atheist, saw the matter without the aid of supernatural agents. The one thing I didn't count on when I started was my own response when reading some of my thoughts and thinking, "am I sure that is the real history before I spout off on it?" And so I delved into all kinds of study finding out if the history I learned was really the real history, or if indeed, homosexuality, as I was convinced, was a naturally recurring percentile and thus not "abnormal" but merely a trait of the species.
Some of the great reads:
Most any of Daniel Boorstin's books, fabulous reading. The discoverers, The creators, the seekers
The Little Brown book anecdotes, The Great Thoughts, The entire Funk and Wagnal Encyclopedia', American Myth and Legends, The Puritans, so many things I started to spout off on and thought, "lets go look at that again".
I would recommend it for everyone.
Quote from: Baruch on September 28, 2017, 07:25:46 PM
That is what human life is, you are living out your own fiction, but you don't know what happens on the next page.
I look back on my life and if I stop the film and look at one particular cell, I realize I had no idea of what would happen next; I did have an idea of what I wanted to happen, but what I wanted and what did happen hardly ever exactly matched. I still plan, but with the realization that shit happens (and non-shit too!) and wait to see whatever is presented.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 28, 2017, 07:50:02 PM
I look back on my life and if I stop the film and look at one particular cell, I realize I had no idea of what would happen next; I did have an idea of what I wanted to happen, but what I wanted and what did happen hardly ever exactly matched. I still plan, but with the realization that shit happens (and non-shit too!) and wait to see whatever is presented.
It is necessary to plan, but also necessary to be an opportunist when things don't work out as planned.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 28, 2017, 06:47:37 AM
You may not understand writers, then. They get into a world of their own. I'm sure you know the phrase "willing suspension of disbelief", but you may not understand how deeply writers get into that.
I've written a few dozen short stories. A few published in those cheap self-published group anthologies. Yeah, whoopee... But when I get an idea started, I am completed involved in it. The story goes places I never expected when I started.
The logic of the beginning brings you where you didn't expect. I started one short story about a cave shaman woman and her accolytes from 20KYA, and to my surprise, I killed her in favor of one acolyte. I'm not joking; I was surprised myself. The rest of the story got better because that one acolyte was more interesting AND it was important that the older shaman died...
And I had no idea of that when I started the story!
Those are the best stories, the ones that come alive on their own terms while you're typing them. On my best days, I slip into something approximating a trance and have to go back in an hour or two and read what I wrote, because the process was so automatic I had no conscious awareness of it. Alas, I don't get that as often as I would like.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 28, 2017, 06:47:37 AMI've written a few dozen short stories. A few published in those cheap self-published group anthologies. Yeah, whoopee... But when I get an idea started, I am completed involved in it. The story goes places I never expected when I started.
Same. I would work on a story and inevitably get writer's block. Then I go for a walk and unbidden, a scene plays out right in front of me. All I really do is put what I experienced to paper and tweak it a little bit.
The first couple times, I forgot to bring a pen and paper with me and I'd end up forgetting half of it before I returned home. :(
Quote from: Cavebear on September 28, 2017, 06:47:37 AM
You may not understand writers, then. They get into a world of their own. I'm sure you know the phrase "willing suspension of disbelief", but you may not understand how deeply writers get into that.
I've written a few dozen short stories. A few published in those cheap self-published group anthologies. Yeah, whoopee... But when I get an idea started, I am completed involved in it. The story goes places I never expected when I started.
The logic of the beginning brings you where you didn't expect. I started one short story about a cave shaman woman and her accolytes from 20KYA, and to my surprise, I killed her in favor of one acolyte. I'm not joking; I was surprised myself. The rest of the story got better because that one acolyte was more interesting AND it was important that the older shaman died...
And I had no idea of that when I started the story!
But, at the end of the day, you're aware it's just a story, right?
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 28, 2017, 10:18:54 PM
Same. I would work on a story and inevitably get writer's block. Then I go for a walk and unbidden, a scene plays out right in front of me. All I really do is put what I experienced to paper and tweak it a little bit.
The first couple times, I forgot to bring a pen and paper with me and I'd end up forgetting half of it before I returned home. :(
How do y'all think I post? I save money, because I am a dry drunk ;-)
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 29, 2017, 06:37:09 AM
But, at the end of the day, you're aware it's just a story, right?
He is creating his own reality ... same as you. Why must there be a single Author, who is the one real writer? Why not many?
Yes, some stories are so compelling (see patriotism) that people mistake it for reality. Assuming anything is actually real, not just stories.
Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2017, 07:05:03 AM
He is creating his own reality ... same as you. Why must there be a single Author, who is the one real writer? Why not many?
Yes, some stories are so compelling (see patriotism) that people mistake it for reality. Assuming anything is actually real, not just stories.
I think that's equivocating two distinct qualitative experiences. "Experiencing" a fictional story, and the individual Experience of the world by the senses are two distinct notions.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/363/744/e2d.jpg)
If you're unable to tell the difference between the two, well, then I think this is a good time to see a psychiatrist about upping your dose.
I should think any self identified fiction writer would know he is writing fiction. Otherwise, he wouldn't call himself a fiction writer. Non fiction is a huge category, but a lot of non-fiction is actually fiction. The ravings of ideologists and the blathering's of philosophers wander back and forth across the line of truth. It seems obvious that many of these types can't tell the difference, while others are just having fun playing games with words, but these special subsets of nonfiction that are neither fiction or nonfiction. Maybe there should be three categories; Fiction, nonfiction, and musing.
I know it feels like I'm accessing another reality and just taking dictation sometimes, and there's a back corner of my mind where my characters exist and I can access them to negotiate out a story -- and I have in fact had my characters tell me they're not going to do something so I better write something else.
It's a useful illusion to manage my creativity. I do not assert that there is a real other universe where my hapless crew of metahumans and mad scientists have a real, material existence. It's just useful to me, as a writer, to pretend there is. My occasional collaborators have long since gotten used to me saying things like, "Oh, (character) says he won't do that" or "Interesting plot twist, let me ask (character)".
Functionally, it's how I access the part of my brain where my creativity lies. Odd, maybe. Harmless, probably. Recognized as a creative crutch, absolutely.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 29, 2017, 07:54:15 AM
I think that's equivocating two distinct qualitative experiences. "Experiencing" a fictional story, and the individual Experience of the world by the senses are two distinct notions.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/363/744/e2d.jpg)
If you're unable to tell the difference between the two, well, then I think this is a good time to see a psychiatrist about upping your dose.
I agree. But in English, we use one word for multiple meanings. Qualitatively, there is a whole spectrum of experiences. And ordinarily we privilege a certain part of that as waking, ordinary experience. However, ordinary experience by the senses isn't neutral, there is a whole host of crap that goes into converting that into "perception".
Quote from: aitm on September 28, 2017, 07:44:30 PM
I think it should be a law, yes a law, that everyone must write a book. I spent years on mine and never had it published, but it was a tremendous learning experience in all kinds of stuff.
You see, nearly 25 years ago, long before Hitchens and Harris or Dawkins I thought I would write a book on musings on being an atheist. The title? "Atheist in the Midst" ...get it? aitm? anyhoo....
I wrote short "essays" on topics from practically everything and how I, being an atheist, saw the matter without the aid of supernatural agents. The one thing I didn't count on when I started was my own response when reading some of my thoughts and thinking, "am I sure that is the real history before I spout off on it?" And so I delved into all kinds of study finding out if the history I learned was really the real history, or if indeed, homosexuality, as I was convinced, was a naturally recurring percentile and thus not "abnormal" but merely a trait of the species.
Some of the great reads:
Most any of Daniel Boorstin's books, fabulous reading. The discoverers, The creators, the seekers
The Little Brown book anecdotes, The Great Thoughts, The entire Funk and Wagnal Encyclopedia', American Myth and Legends, The Puritans, so many things I started to spout off on and thought, "lets go look at that again".
I would recommend it for everyone.
"Atheist in the Midst" ...get it? aitm? anyhoo....
Gobsmacked! The mystery solved... I'm not kidding; I'm stunned.
I appreciate the explanation. Really. You want to trade a few essays for a few of my short stories?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 07:19:40 AM
"Atheist in the Midst" ...get it? aitm? anyhoo....
Gobsmacked! The mystery solved... I'm not kidding; I'm stunned.
I appreciate the explanation. Really. You want to trade a few essays for a few of my short stories?
I submitted a brief about 20 year ago and was told, in a rather polite way-considering what they were trying to say, "our readers would expect a little more challenging material......YEE-OUCH!
Yeah we could do that, but to be honest I haven't looked at it in years. I don't know if it will even load on the new computer. I will have to look.
Fiction? Why it's all 100% true all the time. They can't write things that aren't true! Everyone knows that.
Quote from: aitm on September 28, 2017, 07:44:30 PM
I think it should be a law, yes a law, that everyone must write a book. I spent years on mine and never had it published, but it was a tremendous learning experience in all kinds of stuff.
I would disagree, except that if this were a law, they might take teaching grammar, spelling and punctuation more seriously in grade- and high school. The millions of awful books would be worth the prospect of never seeing the phrase 'im comming over their to you're place tonite' (or the like) again.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 02, 2017, 11:41:34 AM
Fiction? Why it's all 100% true all the time. They can't write things that aren't true! Everyone knows that.
There is no truth. Just assholes.
I have written a book - sorta, it's nothing special, a stupid 120 a4 pages of non-fiction, only touching on a number of topics.
I'm not particulary proud of it or anything. It's more of a glorified blog.
Also, it's in Faroese, and I never bothered to complete the English translation.
http://www.goo.gl/xr5etc
Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
Perhaps in an infinite multiverse there's no such thing as fiction - maybe every possibility is actualized somewhere in the vast expanse of dimensions.
Quote from: Sal1981 on October 02, 2017, 03:00:48 PM
I have written a book - sorta, it's nothing special, a stupid 120 a4 pages of non-fiction, only touching on a number of topics.
I'm not particulary proud of it or anything. It's more of a glorified blog.
Also, it's in Faroese, and I never bothered to complete the English translation.
http://www.goo.gl/xr5etc
Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
Whatever language that was, I'm sure it was interesting.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 02, 2017, 03:52:57 PM
Perhaps in an infinite multiverse there's no such thing as fiction - maybe every possibility is actualized somewhere in the vast expanse of dimensions.
Is that you Rick? Or Evil Morty?
Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 11:31:46 AM
I submitted a brief about 20 year ago and was told, in a rather polite way-considering what they were trying to say, "our readers would expect a little more challenging material......YEE-OUCH!
Yeah we could do that, but to be honest I haven't looked at it in years. I don't know if it will even load on the new computer. I will have to look.
Take a look. My stories are half lost, half found. Just a thought to share interesting stories. I only wrote mine because I wanted stories I liked.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 03:42:36 AM
Take a look. My stories are half lost, half found. Just a thought to share interesting stories. I only wrote mine because I wanted stories I liked.
Self referential? Your stories are re-cursed!
Quote from: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 08:50:10 PM
Self referential? Your stories are re-cursed!
They are not about me. They are mostly like "Just So" stories set in prehistory.
I have had a book in my mind for years of short stories where the main characters in each story were all average or below average, by that, either in intelligence, social status or simply kind of a schmo. But in each story an event would happen and they would make a conscious decision to take action and to become a hero. And in each story just as the moment of greatness was at hand, some type of calamity would occur and they would be killed or their efforts would be completely overlooked, missed or simply misconstrued so that no one would ever know they even attempted. But after thinking of several story lines, I decided that, while one story might be good, several of the same type of ending would simply be disheartening to a reader.
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2017, 08:57:31 AM
I have had a book in my mind for years of short stories where the main characters in each story were all average or below average, by that, either in intelligence, social status or simply kind of a schmo. But in each story an event would happen and they would make a conscious decision to take action and to become a hero. And in each story just as the moment of greatness was at hand, some type of calamity would occur and they would be killed or their efforts would be completely overlooked, missed or simply misconstrued so that no one would ever know they even attempted. But after thinking of several story lines, I decided that, while one story might be good, several of the same type of ending would simply be disheartening to a reader.
Mine are more how the bow was discovered, how horses were domesticated, how gold was first melted, etc. LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 09:20:33 AM
Mine are more how the bow was discovered, how horses were domesticated, how gold was first melted, etc. LOL!
You wrote Clan Of The Cavebear?
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 02, 2017, 11:41:34 AM
Fiction? Why it's all 100% true all the time. They can't write things that aren't true! Everyone knows that.
Please don't say that, or else I'll have to acknowledge that Star Wars had prequels.
Quote from: Baruch on October 08, 2017, 01:53:56 PM
You wrote Clan Of The Cavebear?
Jean Auel, you Court Fool. But the day we got internet at the office, the first 2 phrases I searched were "Atheist" and "Clan of the Cave Bear".
Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 11:14:40 PM
Jean Auel, you Court Fool. But the day we got internet at the office, the first 2 phrases I searched were "Atheist" and "Clan of the Cave Bear".
So the female protagonist of "Clan of the Cave Bear" invented atheism too? Amazing. What will French feminist cave women think of next? ;-))
Ugh. I've had an awful time lately with inspiration, so I've been editing rather than writing. The last idea I've had is too derivative of Robinson's Callahan's Cross-Time Saloon or Clarke's Tales of the White Hart. I could probably still do something useful with it, but I'll put it off for a while.
Fortunately, there is something satisfying in a simple word tweak that vastly improves not just the structure of the sentence and paragraph, but also of the story.
Quote from: trdsf on October 09, 2017, 06:40:04 PM
Ugh. I've had an awful time lately with inspiration, so I've been editing rather than writing. The last idea I've had is too derivative of Robinson's Callahan's Cross-Time Saloon or Clarke's Tales of the White Hart. I could probably still do something useful with it, but I'll put it off for a while.
Fortunately, there is something satisfying in a simple word tweak that vastly improves not just the structure of the sentence and paragraph, but also of the story.
I like reading and editing better than writing. I have never had a grand inspiration to write more than an essay, and never fiction.
Quote from: Baruch on October 09, 2017, 10:46:41 AM
So the female protagonist of "Clan of the Cave Bear" invented atheism too? Amazing. What will French feminist cave women think of next? ;-))
I never said that, but that never stops you from suggesting something never said.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 05:04:24 AM
I never said that, but that never stops you from suggesting something never said.
Some people's posts are so poor, I have to improve them ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 07:19:36 AM
Some people's posts are so poor, I have to improve them ;-))
With what was never said? I reverse don't actually not agree with opposite possibly unnegative.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
With what was never said? I reverse don't actually not agree with opposite possibly unnegative.
Your clearest post yet!
Opposite possibly unnegative ... a opposite of a possibly positive (including zero) aka a possibly negative (including zero).
Don't actually not agree ... if we accept black/white conditions, that means you agree (I think). So so rare we have you agreeing to a possible negative (including zero).
Reversing that means that you disagree with agreeing to a possible negative (including zero). Agreeing to disagree means you have some position, that is in disagreement with some other position. "What was never said" qualifies as a zero ... not a possible net negative. So that fits the bottom structure of your layered utterance. Meaning that you are agreeing to disagree with a possible non-statement. You think there was an implication in what I seem to have said, and you are agreeing to disagree about that. Wheww! Reminds me of ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0
Don't drink the wine!
What is art? Northern Exposure exposed this truth ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=78&v=ppShcRlJeZI
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 08:26:19 PM
Your clearest post yet!
Opposite possibly unnegative ... a opposite of a possibly positive (including zero) aka a possibly negative (including zero).
Don't actually not agree ... if we accept black/white conditions, that means you agree (I think). So so rare we have you agreeing to a possible negative (including zero).
Reversing that means that you disagree with agreeing to a possible negative (including zero). Agreeing to disagree means you have some position, that is in disagreement with some other position. "What was never said" qualifies as a zero ... not a possible net negative. So that fits the bottom structure of your layered utterance. Meaning that you are agreeing to disagree with a possible non-statement. You think there was an implication in what I seem to have said, and you are agreeing to disagree about that. Wheww! Reminds me of ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0
Don't drink the wine!
So you are telling me I should then? Well, OK, cheers.