When Drew brought up the Ten Commandments, I re-read Exodus 34 (one of 3 places the so called Ten Commandments are listed) and was again astounded at how, ummm...........looking for a word here..........banal, stupid (no, not that), fairy talish it is. It seems the Brothers Grimm were describing a character in a story they'd write, when the bible mentions the Lord and what he says and does. Here is a portion of Exodus 34:
"Exodus 34New International Version (NIV)
The New Stone Tablets
34 The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.â€
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.â€
8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 “Lord,†he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.â€
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make any idols.
18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.
25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.
26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.â€
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.†28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenantâ€"the Ten Commandments."
Look at verse 10:
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
God seems to have forgotten that he is the Creator. He acts and talks like he is one of many. And he boasts that he can do more than the others. So, he commands that all traces of other gods be removed (why not do that himself?? Surly the Great And Powerful Oz can do that!). He then says he wants to be called Jealous. Okay. What a very petty piece of work this 'god' is.
This, I think, is the only place in the OT where the 10 Commandments are referred to as such. In the other two places they are supposed to be found, they are not numbered and people have isolated the 10 they think are the best of the 600+ commandments god has issued.
I see stuff like this as proof positive that the bible is really just babble; how can any sane person see it otherwise??????
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 24, 2017, 10:39:45 AM
I see stuff like this as proof positive that the bible is really just babble; how can any sane person see it otherwise??????
Indeed, especially when one interprets it from a literary perspective it becomes all too obvious the writers were mere men intending to put forth their idea of a god and a religion in order to claim it was the only true religion with the only worthy god to be recognized through worship and unquestioning obedience.
Funny how many of those commandments are about God's appetite. So he doesn't like to get blood on his bread. Okay? I guess that was more important than say...do not rape? Do not perform human sacrifice? Oh wait. One of those commandments actually asks for the sacrifice of firstborn sons. Oh shit. Well, at least he remembered to tell them not to make their bread with yeast.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 24, 2017, 11:42:19 AM
Funny how many of those commandments are about God's appetite. So he doesn't like to get blood on his bread. Okay? I guess that was more important than say...do not rape? Do not perform human sacrifice? Oh wait. One of those commandments actually asks for the sacrifice of firstborn sons. Oh shit. Well, at least he remembered to tell them not to make their bread with yeast.
The Lord seems to major in minor, obscure detail.
Quote from: Sorginak on August 24, 2017, 10:52:54 AM
Indeed, especially when one interprets it from a literary perspective it becomes all too obvious the writers were mere men intending to put forth their idea of a god and a religion in order to claim it was the only true religion with the only worthy god to be recognized through worship and unquestioning obedience.
It was created, in political circumstances in Israel/Judah, for a particular people, from about 850-450 BCE. Why do people who are outside that area, and outside that time, care?
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2017, 12:36:45 PM
It was created, in political circumstances in Israel/Judah, for a particular people, from about 850-450 BCE. Why do people who are outside that area, and outside that time, care?
Because some people in the year AD 2017 still live by this composite work of books that are thousands of years old.
QuoteIt was created, in political circumstances in Israel/Judah, for a particular people, from about 850-450 BCE. Why do people who are outside that area, and outside that time, care?
It's a hobby.
Have you noticed that the Quran is never discussed?
Quote from: pr126 on August 24, 2017, 12:44:58 PM
It's a hobby.
Have you noticed that the Quran is never discussed?
If I knew the Quran, I would discuss it. But I was not raised in the Islamic religion.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 24, 2017, 12:44:56 PM
Because some people in the year AD 2017 still live by this composite work of books that are thousands of years old.
Not my problem, if such smart people insist on shoving pencils up their noses.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 24, 2017, 12:46:08 PM
If I knew the Quran, I would discuss it. But I was not raised in the Islamic religion.
So then, the ISIS guys do know who to chop down to size ;-( Now Pr126, are ye happy?
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2017, 12:52:04 PM
Not my problem, if such smart people insist on shoving pencils up their noses.
It is my problem when politicians in my country use their Christian status as a selling point, and especially when they use their beliefs as a basis for their policies. Christianity has had the government in a choke hold for too long.
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2017, 12:36:45 PM
It was created, in political circumstances in Israel/Judah, for a particular people, from about 850-450 BCE. Why do people who are outside that area, and outside that time, care?
Good question
Quote from: pr126 on August 24, 2017, 12:44:58 PM
It's a hobby.
Have you noticed that the Quran is never discussed?
I've noticed it, but it is not puzzling in the least. The quran is not a christian book and we live, for the most part, in a christian area. In other words, geography determines which book of fiction would be discussed the most.
On the subject of Islam, I actually enjoyed the The Masked Arab's videos. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA/videos) I found them pretty interesting and informative when it came to the ridiculous practices and beliefs of Muslims. But as someone who is not a former Muslim, I can only learn through sources like these.
For a God said to not be the author of confusion It certainly wrote a very confusing book. Of course, God didn't write it, but millions of people believe It did, and claim to follow It's laws. Of course, they ignore all the inconvenient parts.
Quote from: Joseph LewisIt is our duty to expose the Bible. We must continue to tell the truth about the Bible. We must continue to enlighten the people. And if after the true facts are known, there are some who still insist the Bible is good enough for them, they are welcome to it.
Quote from: Robert G. IngersollIf a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.
The Bible has been used to justify more horror than any other writing in the history of humanity. It's time we outlawed the damned thing - but that won't happen, so we're going to see even more hate and violence because of it. Hell, outlawing it wouldn't do much good anyway, just as outlawing drugs hasn't done much good. Christians would just keep employing it anyway, because they love being able to use it to justify their cruelty.
It can also be used to justify love and kindness, since it can be used to justify just about anything at all. But it seems to be used mostly for destructive ends.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 24, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
I've noticed it, but it is not puzzling in the least. The quran is not a christian book and we live, for the most part, in a christian area. In other words, geography determines which book of fiction would be discussed the most.
But times are changing. Fast.
Christianity is in decline, Islam is gaining power.
Find out why it is difficult to criticize Islam in the public square.
Quote from: pr126 on August 24, 2017, 01:33:43 PM
But times are changing. Fast.
Christianity is in decline, Islam is gaining power.
Find out why it is difficult to criticize Islam in the public square.
I know your point. But for me it is just as easy to criticize Islam now as it has ever been.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 24, 2017, 02:13:09 PM
I know your point. But for me it is just as easy to criticize Islam now as it has ever been.
In the public square? Or anonymously on the Internet?
Here in Europe it is forbidden to criticize even on the Internet.
It is a thought crime.
Here's a good site for learning how to criticize the Quran:
Skeptic's Annotated Quran (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/)
Quote from: pr126 on August 24, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
In the public square? Or anonymously on the Internet?
Here in Europe it is forbidden to criticize even on the Internet.
It is a thought crime.
Then you better not do it.
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2017, 12:36:45 PM
It was created, in political circumstances in Israel/Judah, for a particular people, from about 850-450 BCE. Why do people who are outside that area, and outside that time, care?
Because the rules and the consequences of that inanity ripple down through time to today and bring division into the modern world as adherents continue to follow old nonsense.
And I don't limit that to Judaism...
Quote from: pr126 on August 24, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
In the public square? Or anonymously on the Internet?
Here in Europe it is forbidden to criticize even on the Internet.
It is a thought crime.
Europeans are slaves of monarchy, papacy and plutocracy. Get back to the cotton field! What is wrong with America? We have been trying to be more European for over 100 years now.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 05:10:10 AM
Because the rules and the consequences of that inanity ripple down through time to today and bring division into the modern world as adherents continue to follow old nonsense.
And I don't limit that to Judaism...
Revolutionaries want to abolish the status quo. Are you are revolutionary? Yes, there are stupid things from the past that continue, some harmless, some harmful. If the government just had a mind-wipe that could reboot people who are brought in for reprogramming ...
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
Revolutionaries want to abolish the status quo. Are you are revolutionary? Yes, there are stupid things from the past that continue, some harmless, some harmful. If the government just had a mind-wipe that could reboot people who are brought in for reprogramming ...
I am too risk averse to be a revolutionary. My rule is more "Change one thing today, another tomorrow, things get better" ... Or "Do one useful thing every day".
Quote from: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 06:09:03 PM
I am too risk averse to be a revolutionary. My rule is more "Change one thing today, another tomorrow, things get better" ... Or "Do one useful thing every day".
Prudent ... and controlled experimental. People who are certain without evidence. are fanatics.
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 06:19:07 PM
Prudent ... and controlled experimental. People who are certain without evidence. are fanatics.
You have to know what you are doing. Oddly enough, that worked for me on pinball machines. There was an arcade across the street for my office and they gave free tokens for the high scores each week. I studied them carefully. When I changed jobs uptown, I had a drawerful of tokens, LOL!
As rules to live by, the Decalogue (in whichever form) is a pretty disappointing set anyway. I mean, the first three rules are about not pissing off an imaginary friend. As someone who works in children services, 'honor thy father and mother' can NOT be a hard and fast rule because some parents only qualify as gene donors and nothing more. No rules about not keeping people as property -- either slaves, or women. It's a pretty shitty "moral" guide.
I can do far better in fewer rules:
1) Don't be a dick.
2) No, really. Don't be a dick.
3) You are a human being. So is everyone else. Keep that in mind when you think you're about to be a dick to someone. You don't want them to be a dick to you, do you?
4) You don't always have to be first. See Rule #1.
5) You also don't always have to be last. Everyone else, see Rule #1.
6) So long as all parties consent, it's none of your fucking business what two (or more) adults in full possession of their faculties are doing with each other, so long as they're not conspiring to be dicks to other human beings (yourself included).
I think that about covers everything.
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 08:10:40 AM
We have been trying to be more European for over 100 years now.
It's more like the Europeans out-Americaned us, and we're just trying to catch up with where we should have been long ago.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 18, 2017, 05:27:21 PM
It's more like the Europeans out-Americaned us, and we're just trying to catch up with where we should have been long ago.
That would be the European view. And some posters are Europeans, and others are Fellow Travelers (if you know what I mean).
The future of Europe ... German speaking multiracial Muslims. And yes, Britain, it is to late to escape your fate. This all started in 1914, with the German Empire getting too close to the Ottoman Empire ... trying to build a railway to Basra from Istanbul. GB already knew where the oil would be found.
Quote from: Baruch on September 18, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
That would be the European view. And some posters are Europeans, and others are Fellow Travelers (if you know what I mean).
The future of Europe ... German speaking multiracial Muslims. And yes, Britain, it is to late to escape your fate. This all started in 1914, with the German Empire getting too close to the Ottoman Empire ... trying to build a railway to Basra from Istanbul. GB already knew where the oil would be found.
You seem to fear "others". Care to explain why?
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2017, 02:32:12 AM
You seem to fear "others". Care to explain why?
I fear no one, but I "respect" everyone. Meaning ... I pay attention to a drunk in a bar with a knife or gun ;-) I am multi-ethnic in origin myself. White Supremacy is so ... inaccurate and stupid. It made some temporary sense 117 years ago. Jewish Supremacy is beyond ridiculous ... as well. Since I choose to identify as a Jew, I know I am putting a big target on my back. But I don't wear my yarmulka outside ;-) A Black person in the US can't blend in like I can. If I had chosen to identify as Irish (and I could) ... I would know that I am putting an English target on my back. Choose your blarney wisely.
So why not be a cosmopolitan generic human of all Star Trek culture? It is a TV show/movie. It isn't real. I needed something more specific to identify with rather than generic human or generic male or even generic American. Because I am a specific human being, I am not average, nobody is.
It is fine with me, if all the Europeans end up as mixed Eurasian-African Muslims, speaking Franco-German. It is also fine with me if all the N Americans end up as mixed Hispanic Catholics, speaking Spanglish.
Quote from: Baruch on September 19, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
I fear no one, but I "respect" everyone. Meaning ... I pay attention to a drunk in a bar with a knife or gun ;-) I am multi-ethnic in origin myself. White Supremacy is so ... inaccurate and stupid. It made some temporary sense 117 years ago. Jewish Supremacy is beyond ridiculous ... as well. Since I choose to identify as a Jew, I know I am putting a big target on my back. But I don't wear my yarmulka outside ;-) A Black person in the US can't blend in like I can. If I had chosen to identify as Irish (and I could) ... I would know that I am putting an English target on my back. Choose your blarney wisely.
So why not be a cosmopolitan generic human of all Star Trek culture? It is a TV show/movie. It isn't real. I needed something more specific to identify with rather than generic human or generic male or even generic American. Because I am a specific human being, I am not average, nobody is.
It is fine with me, if all the Europeans end up as mixed Eurasian-African Muslims, speaking Franco-German. It is also fine with me if all the N Americans end up as mixed Hispanic Catholics, speaking Spanglish.
Well said. And here I wondered if you were a Jesuit... Take that as a debating compliment. And you could still be, they are allowed to lie. But if I may offer a small joke (and saying it is one matters)...
A guy visited Ireland in the 70s. Knowing of the fights between the Catholics and Protestants, he had a plan.
Sure enough, one evening, he felt a knife at his back. "Declare yerself" the voice said.
"I'm Jewish"!
And the voice said "I must be the luckiest Arab in Ireland"...
Yes, I have debated with a guy who interrogated Iraqis in Bagdad. He taught me a thing or two. It is impossible not to say false things (humans don't know anything) but it isn't impossible to not lie ... you just have to be sincere.
Quote from: Baruch on September 19, 2017, 09:37:15 PM
Yes, I have debated with a guy who interrogated Iraqis in Bagdad. He taught me a thing or two. It is impossible not to say false things (humans don't know anything) but it isn't impossible to not lie ... you just have to be sincere.
Nice deceitful double negatives! "impossible not to say false things" Or "isn't impossible to not lie"...
How about stating them in the positive mode to make them clear? Or I will. I would rather you said it "un-double-negative yourself.
Do you think you are talking to fools?
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2017, 02:07:58 AM
Nice deceitful double negatives! "impossible not to say false things" Or "isn't impossible to not lie"...
How about stating them in the positive mode to make them clear? Or I will. I would rather you said it "un-double-negative yourself.
Do you think you are talking to fools?
Double negatives are completely legitimate in other languages. Don't blame me if English is a shit creole language ... blame the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans, and the Black Death! And no, I am not talking to fools (though some of our drive by-s are). If you would like a formal discussion of linguistics and metaphysics, please apply in the philosophy section ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
Double negatives are completely legitimate in other languages. Don't blame me if English is a shit creole language ... blame the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans, and the Black Death! And no, I am not talking to fools (though some of our drive by-s are). If you would like a formal discussion of linguistics and metaphysics, please apply in the philosophy section ;-)
I attempt to write fiction that means something and all any online critics can do is be grammar police. It's rather unnerving. I don't let their policing distract me or stop me, however. Heck, Tolkien was atrocious with grammar, yet look at how popular his LOTR is.
Quote from: Sorginak on September 23, 2017, 03:50:41 PM
I attempt to write fiction that means something and all any online critics can do is be grammar police. It's rather unnerving. I don't let their policing distract me or stop me, however. Heck, Tolkien was atrocious with grammar, yet look at how popular his LOTR is.
Writers, particularly creative writers ... are creators (QED). Poetic license is necessary. The best writers not only create new meanings for old words, they create new words .. because they have delineated a corner of consciousness never delineated before (see Literary Criticism by Harold Bloom).
Semantics is where it is at ... those who have nothing much to say criticize the lexical, the syntactic or the pragmatic aspects of a text. Maybe even the food stain on the page. Don't even ask me about Derrida ;-(
Quote from: Sorginak on September 23, 2017, 03:50:41 PM
Heck, Tolkien was atrocious with grammar, yet look at how popular his LOTR is.
Never mind his grammar, he was just fucking BORING.
Quote from: trdsf on September 23, 2017, 05:50:54 PM
Never mind his grammar, he was just fucking BORING.
No surprise there. I'm certain there is something you find interesting that I would find absolutely boring.
Quote from: trdsf on September 23, 2017, 05:50:54 PM
Never mind his grammar, he was just fucking BORING.
Parts were boring; parts were exciting; parts were profound.
But keep in mind he wrote a lot of it as a story to a child. As he admitted himself, he didn't realize where the story was going. The progression of his poetry suggests it. I think it was the son who said that his father was surprised by the import of Sorcerer of Mirkwood and things changed after that.