For the longest time, I've considered myself an advocate for science and technology. Scientific advancement gives us the power to do things that were previously impossible - feed the hungry, wipe out diseases, build great machines to ensure a high standard of living, and to perform previously godlike feats with trivial ease. In short, science is knowledge and knowledge is power.
So it seems like a foregone conclusion that mankind should take to the stars. Not only for the direct scientific and resourcing benefits, but also because the cooperation necessary for such a feat would inevitably bring participating nations closer together. Also, on an individual level, a space pioneer slipping the surly bonds of Earth, making camp on Luna or Mars, and seeing that pale blue dot from a fresh perspective...how could that experience possibly be anything but ennobling? One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
But lately, I've come to realize the naiveté and foolishness of this dream. Space is vast and empty and dangerous. Yes, dangerous. We're risking peoples lives and for what? To bring back chunks of rock? That's crazy.
Look, space exploration was fine and dandy when we were up against the Ruskies and we put the stars and stripes on the moon to show them who has the bigger rocket. That space race is over. Since then, America has moved on to new threats, like Islamic terrorism, an increasingly formidable China, and a revanchist Russia. America has moved on from the 1960s, NASA has not.
NASA still plays a vital role in tracking climate change, but let's honest for a second - this isn't some selfless organization intent on making the world a better place, this is a wasteful government bureaucracy trying desperately to justify its billions-per-year budget. They're just lining their pockets on the taxpayer dime. NASA isn't truly interested in global warming; it simply realized that wearing green is a convenient way to get government money.
And speaking of money, these billions of dollars could certainly be put to better use. Instead of building some probe that's just going to drop dead on Mars even if it doesn't crash on the way, we could put it to much more productive endeavors. As a wise man once said, there's no such thing as a free lunch; expenditures in space exploration necessarily divert money away from education, Social Security, etc. Do you think it's right to take money away from Meals On Wheels to fulfill some nerds' fantasies? I don't.
So please, let's all give up this silly dream and refocus our efforts on making this world better. Space will always be out there. Let's deal with our problems here, first.
"Senor Columbus, your idea is stupid. No money from me or Isabelle!"
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 01, 2017, 01:50:34 PM"Senor Columbus, your idea is stupid. No money from me or Isabelle!"
Some monarchs said exactly that and they were right to do so. Columbus never delivered on his promise of a route to India and he was a foul, contemptible racist and slaver besides. Can you believe this guy has his own holiday?
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 01:56:57 PM
Some monarchs said exactly that and they were right to do so. Columbus never delivered on his promise of a route to India and he was a foul, contemptible racist and slaver besides. Can you believe this guy has his own holiday?
You claim they were right to not fund exploration. From a certain POV I would agree. But do you think we'll really exploit the natives of Titan?
Titan is probably lifeless, so no. But we'd just exploit and despoil it like we've done to everything else we've touched. Another sacrificial lamb for the god of capitalism. Why not allow it to exist in its pristine state and concern ourselves with our own affairs?
The space industry brought a lot a positives to sciences, medicine, clothing, even agriculture. How to measure the positives v neg is beyond my pay scale. Ask Barauch.
Quote from: aitm on April 01, 2017, 02:23:48 PMThe space industry brought a lot a positives to sciences, medicine, clothing, even agriculture. How to measure the positives v neg is beyond my pay scale. Ask Barauch.
Yeah, but a $2 billion probe for a $10 non-stick skillet?? Seems like a bad deal to me.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 02:20:02 PM
Titan is probably lifeless, so no. But we'd just exploit and despoil it like we've done to everything else we've touched. Another sacrificial lamb for the god of capitalism. Why not allow it to exist in its pristine state and concern ourselves with our own affairs?
Why leave it there doing nothing when we can use it to power colonies in space. Stay on this rock if you want, history will wave as it passes.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 02:32:40 PM
Yeah, but a $2 billion probe for a $10 non-stick skillet?? Seems like a bad deal to me.
Oh, please. How many millions of teflon items have been made and sold?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 01, 2017, 05:11:25 PMOh, please. How many millions of teflon items have been made and sold?
Probably at least 12. But we could've just made those on Earth without the $2 billion probe added on. We keep throwing money out into space, don't the geniuses at NASA know we need money here?
Yea... April fools to you too buddy.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 05:23:37 PM
Probably at least 12. But we could've just made those on Earth without the $2 billion probe added on. We keep throwing money out into space, don't the geniuses at NASA know we need money here?
Compare NASA's budget to the military budget.
I'll be the first man to go space out of pure spite
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 01, 2017, 05:44:40 PMCompare NASA's budget to the military budget.
Hey, those people keep us safe from Muslamajadeen terrorists (and the occasional school). They've earned every penny they get.
Why do you think you don't hear about islamic attacks against the US anymore? Because of our brave, honorable soldiers tirelessly working halfway around the world to keep Americans - and American interests - safe from harm. If you don't support our troops, you don't support America.
Quote from: aitm on April 01, 2017, 02:23:48 PM
The space industry brought a lot a positives to sciences, medicine, clothing, even agriculture. How to measure the positives v neg is beyond my pay scale. Ask Barauch.
Positive yes, but that was a side effect. The whole point was so that the CIA guys can sodomize the KGB guys (and I don't mean in a friendly way). The KGB had the same reason for manipulating their Communist Party puppets, just as our guys had for manipulating our Demo/Repub puppets.
And there are always competing interests for government largess. Now we will have Capitalist space exploration ... Elon Musk can get idiots into his rockets and pay him for it, and ... its too the Moon, Alice! That is one way to get rid of low IQ plutocrats ... oh, did I forget? You have to pay extra for the return trip, suckers!
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 01:46:32 PM
For the longest time, I've considered myself an advocate for science and technology. Scientific advancement gives us the power to do things that were previously impossible - feed the hungry, wipe out diseases, build great machines to ensure a high standard of living, and to perform previously godlike feats with trivial ease. In short, science is knowledge and knowledge is power.
So it seems like a foregone conclusion that mankind should take to the stars. Not only for the direct scientific and resourcing benefits, but also because the cooperation necessary for such a feat would inevitably bring participating nations closer together. Also, on an individual level, a space pioneer slipping the surly bonds of Earth, making camp on Luna or Mars, and seeing that pale blue dot from a fresh perspective...how could that experience possibly be anything but ennobling? One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
But lately, I've come to realize the naiveté and foolishness of this dream. Space is vast and empty and dangerous. Yes, dangerous. We're risking peoples lives and for what? To bring back chunks of rock? That's crazy.
Look, space exploration was fine and dandy when we were up against the Ruskies and we put the stars and stripes on the moon to show them who has the bigger rocket. That space race is over. Since then, America has moved on to new threats, like Islamic terrorism, an increasingly formidable China, and a revanchist Russia. America has moved on from the 1960s, NASA has not.
NASA still plays a vital role in tracking climate change, but let's honest for a second - this isn't some selfless organization intent on making the world a better place, this is a wasteful government bureaucracy trying desperately to justify its billions-per-year budget. They're just lining their pockets on the taxpayer dime. NASA isn't truly interested in global warming; it simply realized that wearing green is a convenient way to get government money.
And speaking of money, these billions of dollars could certainly be put to better use. Instead of building some probe that's just going to drop dead on Mars even if it doesn't crash on the way, we could put it to much more productive endeavors. As a wise man once said, there's no such thing as a free lunch; expenditures in space exploration necessarily divert money away from education, Social Security, etc. Do you think it's right to take money away from Meals On Wheels to fulfill some nerds' fantasies? I don't.
So please, let's all give up this silly dream and refocus our efforts on making this world better. Space will always be out there. Let's deal with our problems here, first.
Are you trying to copy me? Great! Keep up the good work, and I won't have to post as often ;-)) Love your new avatar too .. but Dory is more cute and absent minded.
To be honest, I am conflicted when it comes to spending money on space exploration.
Should we instead stop polluting this planet and provide a better future for generations to come or should we search for a new planet upon which to live?
If America wasn't so damn fucking stupid as to make enemies of others around the globe, maybe we wouldn't need to spend all of our money on military defense. Not that anyone was attacking us when Obama was president. If anything, Republicans have this narrow minded view of being unnecessarily prepared because of the shit they spew. Republicans know they deserve a backlash after they state retarded things, and that should be a lesson to them rather than the world. They need to stop being so goddamn stupid in their views and what they state.
Sorry for the rant, but sometimes it just happens.
Crime pays. If you don't like it, stay in your mom's basement. But this reality is bigger than people, I blame G-d. Asshole deity.
"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
I get goose bumps every time I hear that. Is there any doubt that Star Trek is mankind's greatest literary achievement? And the Interplanetary Federation started with something like NASA.
And you want to shut down NASA to save Social Security? The savings isn't likely to go into Social Security.
Quote from: SGOS on April 02, 2017, 10:04:25 AM
"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
I get goose bumps every time I hear that. Is there any doubt that Star Trek is mankind's greatest literary achievement? And the Interplanetary Federation started with something like NASA.
And you want to shut down NASA to save Social Security? The savings isn't likely to go into Social Security.
No need to shut anything down since 1971. Just print more dollars, for every government department, and now we can do it digitally! Let the inflation come my children ... "after me, the deluge" - King Louis XV.
Quote from: Baruch on April 02, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
No need to shut anything down since 1971. Just print more dollars, for every government department, and now we can do it digitally! Let the inflation come my children ... "after me, the deluge" - King Louis XV.
I never have figured out what bit coins are exactly, but it must be something that could apply here. Personally, I prefer VISA, but if there is another form of fake money, I want in on it.
Happy April Fools Day! :celebrate: :dance:
Everything I've previously said in this thread was complete bullshit (hence Baruch's glowing review, lol).
Almost all of my arguments were either false dilemmas (funding Social Security VS funding NASA), irrelevant (Christopher Columbus did terrible things as an argument against exploring the Earth), or predicated on horrendously wrong assumptions (NASA employees cynically exploiting climate change for money, space exploration as wasteful, grossly misunderstanding the value of spinoff technologies).
:signlies:
One tragically common bad argument is that we should fix problems on Earth first before venturing out into space. On the surface, that sounds reasonable, but when exactly do you guys think all our problems will be solved? It's never going to happen. So, by agreeing with that argument, you're effectively agreeing to never explore space. What else could I get you to give up by forcing you to choose between two things?
Anyone who thought any of these arguments were compelling in any way, you need to seriously re-examine your baloney detection kit.
Btw, Baruch here's the fish avatar in its entirety:
(http://www.arcturius.org/chroniques/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/poisson-d-Avril.jpg)
Poisson d'Avril = April Fools.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 02, 2017, 11:03:31 AM
Anyone who thought any of these arguments were compelling in any way, you need to seriously re-examine your baloney detection kit.
I didn't think they were compelling, but I know people who do, they're my (collectively called) cousins. They don't believe we went to the Moon, and NASA's budget is actually spent on whores and nose powder for politicians. You just gave me some practice responding to them.
Over the years, I've learned to keep my guard up on April 1st. My mother would bake string into one of my pancakes, boil a rubber hot dog for lunch. I think only Christmas was more important to her, and I'm not sure about Christmas.
Quote from: SGOS on April 02, 2017, 10:21:06 AM
I never have figured out what bit coins are exactly, but it must be something that could apply here. Personally, I prefer VISA, but if there is another form of fake money, I want in on it.
A quick note on Bitcoin and other such systems. There are two points ...
1. You generate your own money, but not arbitrarily, you have to find a new unique number (in the prescribed series) at bit like finding the next higher prime number. All the easy ones have already been "mined". For the early guys (Ponzi) it was easy .. it is much harder now
2. You trade this new money ... it has a block chain. That way you can't cheat ... there is a public record of each trade (as there is of each bitcoin) ... you can't deny that you traded a bitcoin (for whatever you traded it for) ... but not a record of what you spent it on. The bitcoin is completely traceable back to the original mine it was algorithmically dug out of.
3. Governments have no toleration for money that is generated outside of their Treasury. This is a primary control mechanism (that and real estate). And they figure that only legitimate banks can do money laundering (and the CIA of course) ... independent money laundering is very no-no. Just like force is a monopoly of the State, that doesn't tolerate Tony Soprano when he does it.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 02, 2017, 11:03:31 AM
Happy April Fools Day! :celebrate: :dance:
Everything I've previously said in this thread was complete bullshit (hence Baruch's glowing review, lol).
Almost all of my arguments were either false dilemmas (funding Social Security VS funding NASA), irrelevant (Christopher Columbus did terrible things as an argument against exploring the Earth), or predicated on horrendously wrong assumptions (NASA employees cynically exploiting climate change for money, space exploration as wasteful, grossly misunderstanding the value of spinoff technologies).
:signlies:
One tragically common bad argument is that we should fix problems on Earth first before venturing out into space. On the surface, that sounds reasonable, but when exactly do you guys think all our problems will be solved? It's never going to happen. So, by agreeing with that argument, you're effectively agreeing to never explore space. What else could I get you to give up by forcing choose between two things?
Anyone who thought any of these arguments were compelling in any way, you need to seriously re-examine your baloney detection kit.
Every day is April Fools, sheeple!
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 02, 2017, 11:05:33 AM
Btw, Baruch here's the fish avatar in its entirety:
(http://www.arcturius.org/chroniques/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/poisson-d-Avril.jpg)
Poisson d'Avril = April Fools.
Excellent, I heard of that custom when I was studying French. They even attach paper fish to other people when their backs are turned. Is that why the Germans hate them?
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 01, 2017, 01:46:32 PM
For the longest time, I've considered myself an advocate for science and technology. Scientific advancement gives us the power to do things that were previously impossible - feed the hungry, wipe out diseases, build great machines to ensure a high standard of living, and to perform previously godlike feats with trivial ease. In short, science is knowledge and knowledge is power.
So it seems like a foregone conclusion that mankind should take to the stars. Not only for the direct scientific and resourcing benefits, but also because the cooperation necessary for such a feat would inevitably bring participating nations closer together. Also, on an individual level, a space pioneer slipping the surly bonds of Earth, making camp on Luna or Mars, and seeing that pale blue dot from a fresh perspective...how could that experience possibly be anything but ennobling? One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
But lately, I've come to realize the naiveté and foolishness of this dream. Space is vast and empty and dangerous. Yes, dangerous. We're risking peoples lives and for what? To bring back chunks of rock? That's crazy.
Look, space exploration was fine and dandy when we were up against the Ruskies and we put the stars and stripes on the moon to show them who has the bigger rocket. That space race is over. Since then, America has moved on to new threats, like Islamic terrorism, an increasingly formidable China, and a revanchist Russia. America has moved on from the 1960s, NASA has not.
NASA still plays a vital role in tracking climate change, but let's honest for a second - this isn't some selfless organization intent on making the world a better place, this is a wasteful government bureaucracy trying desperately to justify its billions-per-year budget. They're just lining their pockets on the taxpayer dime. NASA isn't truly interested in global warming; it simply realized that wearing green is a convenient way to get government money.
And speaking of money, these billions of dollars could certainly be put to better use. Instead of building some probe that's just going to drop dead on Mars even if it doesn't crash on the way, we could put it to much more productive endeavors. As a wise man once said, there's no such thing as a free lunch; expenditures in space exploration necessarily divert money away from education, Social Security, etc. Do you think it's right to take money away from Meals On Wheels to fulfill some nerds' fantasies? I don't.
So please, let's all give up this silly dream and refocus our efforts on making this world better. Space will always be out there. Let's deal with our problems here, first.
Scientific American suggests that cosmic rays prevent human space travel in the immediate future due to brain damage. So maybe we better spend a few decades solving our problems here first while they solve that problem anyway.
SA isn't a peer reviewed journal, of course. But, just for fun, did they say how much more exposure we'd get in space than on Earth?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 04, 2017, 07:00:18 AM
SA isn't a peer reviewed journal, of course. But, just for fun, did they say how much more exposure we'd get in space than on Earth?
It's apparently significant. The magnet poles of the earth deflect most, but not all, of the harmful radiation.
Quote from: SGOS on April 04, 2017, 10:00:38 AM
It's apparently significant. The magnet poles of the earth deflect most, but not all, of the harmful radiation.
Including cosmic rays? Ummm...
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 04, 2017, 10:07:11 AM
Including cosmic rays? Ummm...
From my reading, cosmic rays were included in a list of harmful rays. This was followed by a description of the effect of the magnetic poles on harmful radiations, so it sort of implied that, but I wondered the same thing. I think I read someplace that cosmic rays were like photons, and I wondered why magnetism would affect particles of light. Gravity apparently affects the path of light rays. Photons, I don't know, and besides that my limited knowledge may be jumbled. I'm out of my depth, but no one else responded, so consider this to be me just taking a shot.
Quote from: SGOS on April 04, 2017, 10:24:08 AM
From my reading, cosmic rays were included in a list of harmful rays. This was followed by a description of the effect of the magnetic poles on harmful radiations, so it sort of implied that, but I wondered the same thing. I think I read someplace that cosmic rays were like photons, and I wondered why magnetism would affect particles of light. Gravity apparently affects the path of light rays. Photons, I don't know, and besides that my limited knowledge may be jumbled. I'm out of my depth, but no one else responded, so consider this to be me just taking a shot.
I'm not aware of cosmic rays being deflected by anything. Not current on the matter, however, so I asked. ...---...
Quote from: Cavebear on April 03, 2017, 03:15:46 AMScientific American suggests that cosmic rays prevent human space travel in the immediate future due to brain damage. So maybe we better spend a few decades solving our problems here first while they solve that problem anyway.
There's a fine line between being an explorer and being suicidal.
I'm not opposed to putting off a mission until a minimum level of safety can be reached. I am opposed to putting off a mission indefinitely for political/spacephobic reasons that have nothing to do with safety.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 04, 2017, 10:07:11 AM
Including cosmic rays? Ummm...
Atmosphere converts more powerful cosmic rays, into muons and neutrinos. The muons can still hurt you, but are more intense at higher altitudes. Neutrinos can't hurt you. Some cosmic rays (high speed particles and very energetic photons) can be converted into electron-positron pairs when they encounter the atmosphere, so at altitude you are getting a small exposure to anti-matter too. That is where the first anti-matter was detected.
Quote from: SGOS on April 04, 2017, 10:24:08 AM
From my reading, cosmic rays were included in a list of harmful rays. This was followed by a description of the effect of the magnetic poles on harmful radiations, so it sort of implied that, but I wondered the same thing. I think I read someplace that cosmic rays were like photons, and I wondered why magnetism would affect particles of light. Gravity apparently affects the path of light rays. Photons, I don't know, and besides that my limited knowledge may be jumbled. I'm out of my depth, but no one else responded, so consider this to be me just taking a shot.
Photon deflection is minimal, and high energy cosmic rays while deflectable, aren't reduced by much (high energy). The Earth's magnetic field mostly protects us from the lethal solar wind (which is a problem for the ISP). And the atmosphere protects us from lethal UV. Without the atmosphere and magnetic field, if you could not need breathing, you would be fried or cancered at the surface pretty quick, people would have to live underground.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 04, 2017, 10:57:05 AM
There's a fine line between being an explorer and being suicidal.
I'm not opposed to putting off a mission until a minimum level of safety can be reached. I am opposed to putting off a mission indefinitely for political/spacephobic reasons that have nothing to do with safety.
Nuts have volunteered for one way flights to Mars, and will more likely actually take trips around the moon (no landing though ... Armstrong barely survived his).
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 02, 2017, 11:03:31 AM
Happy April Fools Day!
Anyone who thought any of these arguments were compelling in any way, you need to seriously re-examine your baloney detection kit.
With the amount and kind of bull-shit we get in this forum you think yours was too over board? oy vey.
Tang was so awesome, it propelled us into a different parallel universe where Kennedy wasn't assassinated!
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 04, 2017, 07:00:18 AM
SA isn't a peer reviewed journal, of course. But, just for fun, did they say how much more exposure we'd get in space than on Earth?
SA Feb 2017 had an article "Deep Space Deal-Breaker" discussing the consequences of space travel cosmic rays on the brain's dendrites outside the Earth's magnetosphere. Simulated experiments showed that mice sufferred behavioral and neurological damage in only a few weeks.
Quote from: Cavebear on April 07, 2017, 05:48:04 AM
SA Feb 2017 had an article "Deep Space Deal-Breaker" discussing the consequences of space travel cosmic rays on the brain's dendrites outside the Earth's magnetosphere. Simulated experiments showed that mice sufferred behavioral and neurological damage in only a few weeks.
It that how we got D and R people? ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on April 07, 2017, 06:56:06 AM
It that how we got D and R people? ;-)
As I recall, only one of them took the ride into space. It was the ride just before the ride that blew up the elementary school teacher. I think about that a lot. What an ill fated program. They should have sent the teacher up first, and then the politician. Damit! It soured me on the space program for good.
Quote from: Cavebear on April 07, 2017, 05:48:04 AM
SA Feb 2017 had an article "Deep Space Deal-Breaker" discussing the consequences of space travel cosmic rays on the brain's dendrites outside the Earth's magnetosphere. Simulated experiments showed that mice sufferred behavioral and neurological damage in only a few weeks.
And what were the conditions of the experiment?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 07, 2017, 08:24:10 AM
And what were the conditions of the experiment?
Don't forget to feed the mice.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 07, 2017, 08:24:10 AM
And what were the conditions of the experiment?
Mice exposed to conditions outside the Earth magnetosphere sufferred neurological and dendrite loss.
Quote from: Cavebear on April 07, 2017, 08:42:38 AM
Mice exposed to conditions outside the Earth magnetosphere sufferred neurological and dendrite loss.
Yeah, I figure that much, but what were the conditions.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 07, 2017, 08:09:22 PM
Yeah, I figure that much, but what were the conditions.
The same as outside the Earth magnetoshere.
Quote from: Cavebear on April 12, 2017, 05:06:15 AM
The same as outside the Earth magnetoshere.
Well duh. What shielding was used?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 13, 2017, 06:37:31 AM
Well duh. What shielding was used?
The point of the experiment was to ... not have shielding, genius ;-) At least in the experiment the mice got air and water .. because the vacuum of space sucks.
Quote from: Baruch on April 13, 2017, 07:00:27 AM
The point of the experiment was to ... not have shielding, genius ;-) At least in the experiment the mice got air and water .. because the vacuum of space sucks.
Okay, they proved dangerous places are dangerous. Next, let's get them to smoke in a fireworks factory.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 13, 2017, 07:01:32 AM
Okay, they proved dangerous places are dangerous. Next, let's get them to smoke in a fireworks factory.
Submit a grant proposal, and government will fund it.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 13, 2017, 07:01:32 AM
Okay, they proved dangerous places are dangerous. Next, let's get them to smoke in a fireworks factory.
The work is to solve the problems. Yeah, I know that sounds simple, but we humans tend to solve problems.
My grandfather saw the first air flights and humans walking on the moon. He said we could do anything. I agree.