Hello everyone!
I am an agnostic from an Islamic background, and recently, a friend has tried to get me to "go" Christian. She introduced me to all these Near Death Experience stories. I found the topic interesting, and realized that many of the people who had them claim to have met Jesus. At first, I dismissed them, as I read that they are based on one's culture. However, a recent church service I went to with her, the Priest challenged people to find one NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad, or a Hindu meets Krishna. I took up the challenge, and searched. I could not find any Muslim NDEs where a Muslim met Muhammad. I went as far as to search google Saudi Arabia in Arabic and Google Turkey in Turkish, still nothing. I did find NDEs of Muslims reporting that they met Jesus, and he told them to become CHristian. I also found one with a Hindu woman who saw Jesus too. I found so many with Jesus, that I am wondering whether or not that means that Christianity has more merit than the other faiths? Let's say it is in fact true that not one Muslim ever saw Muhammad during an NDE, or that not one Hindu saw Krishna, but Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus saw Jesus, would you believe that Christianity is the true faith?
Anything that requires religious faith has no relevance in reality.
Once, when I was sick as a child, I had a fever dream, where a man in a white robe was standing in my back yard. In the dream, I was playing with some friends, and when I saw him, I thought he was an angel. Then my friend said, "It's Jesus! You must be dead!" I started towards him, and he started rising into the air. He said, "You can't come yet." But I was determined to go with him, and as he was slowly ascending, I grabbed a long stick, and tried to pole-vault myself up to him. Then he said, more firmly, "No! You can't come yet! You don't have enough faith!"
Not a NDE, but still a little strange, considering I had only a small amount church indoctrination, at that age.
anything is possible including:
1. Jesus is real, but is nothing like the description in the Bible.
2. I can pay you to have a NDE that supports my position.
Theophanies are common to all religions ... and religious people of X religion, interpret them accordingly. NDEs can be a kind of paranormal event. Of course the paranormal events are interesting, but they can never be scientifically verified, because they are non-repeatable and usually subjective. I have had some small experience with paranormal events, but they aren't decisive in why I am a theist. Magic tricks are not impressive if you know how the trick (psychology) is accomplished. The choice as to which religion is more real, to a theist, depends on their individual psychology and cultural background. And it gets confusing with Islam, because Islam accepts prophets prior to Muhammad. IMHO ... Muhammad is a real prophet ... but not the only one ... but there is one G-d, so all prophets reflect that ... with different cultural baggage. I understand why Arabs feel that Muhammad is the purest message ... but culturally I have to disagree for myself.
Quote from: Manga on March 16, 2017, 08:21:11 PM
Hello everyone!
I am an agnostic from an Islamic background, and recently, a friend has tried to get me to "go" Christian. She introduced me to all these Near Death Experience stories. I found the topic interesting, and realized that many of the people who had them claim to have met Jesus. At first, I dismissed them, as I read that they are based on one's culture. However, a recent church service I went to with her, the Priest challenged people to find one NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad, or a Hindu meets Krishna. I took up the challenge, and searched. I could not find any Muslim NDEs where a Muslim met Muhammad. I went as far as to search google Saudi Arabia in Arabic and Google Turkey in Turkish, still nothing. I did find NDEs of Muslims reporting that they met Jesus, and he told them to become CHristian. I also found one with a Hindu woman who saw Jesus too. I found so many with Jesus, that I am wondering whether or not that means that Christianity has more merit than the other faiths? Let's say it is in fact true that not one Muslim ever saw Muhammad during an NDE, or that not one Hindu saw Krishna, but Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus saw Jesus, would you believe that Christianity is the true faith?
No
Quote from: Manga on March 16, 2017, 08:21:11 PM
Hello everyone!
I am an agnostic from an Islamic background, and recently, a friend has tried to get me to "go" Christian. She introduced me to all these Near Death Experience stories. I found the topic interesting, and realized that many of the people who had them claim to have met Jesus. At first, I dismissed them, as I read that they are based on one's culture. However, a recent church service I went to with her, the Priest challenged people to find one NDE where a Muslim meets Muhammad, or a Hindu meets Krishna. I took up the challenge, and searched. I could not find any Muslim NDEs where a Muslim met Muhammad. I went as far as to search google Saudi Arabia in Arabic and Google Turkey in Turkish, still nothing. I did find NDEs of Muslims reporting that they met Jesus, and he told them to become CHristian. I also found one with a Hindu woman who saw Jesus too. I found so many with Jesus, that I am wondering whether or not that means that Christianity has more merit than the other faiths? Let's say it is in fact true that not one Muslim ever saw Muhammad during an NDE, or that not one Hindu saw Krishna, but Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus saw Jesus, would you believe that Christianity is the true faith?
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/427/566/b67.jpeg)
I've seen all kinds of claims from Christians who supposedly were first something else, but the way they talk often reveals that they are BSing everyone. Just because someone posts something on the internet doesn't make it true. I could claim to be a former Muslim, Hindu, or anything else. I'd also remind you that most of the civilized world is either Christian or living in a society that is highly saturated by Christianity. Even if you're an atheist living here in America, if you dream of going to Heaven, I'd expect you'd imagine meeting Jesus first over Muhammed.
OP, short answer; no.
More fun answer: In some asian subcultures there's a psychological delusion called Koro which is not found in many other places in The world. Or at least hardly found. Yet in asia, it's relatively frequent. It involves an irrational belief that a male's penis will retract into his body; leading to his death. Seeing as these asians experience this fear, but others around The world do not, do you believe there is some ground to this Culture-specific syndrome?
Brains are strange things, shaping our lives and experiences only as much as they are shaped by them. I hardly trust a functional one. Let alone one faced with imminent demise.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 06:23:20 AM
OP, short answer; no.
More fun answer: In some asian subcultures there's a psychological delusion called Koro which is not found in many other places in The world. Or at least hardly found. Yet in asia, it's relatively frequent. It involves an irrational belief that a male's penis will retract into his body; leading to his death. Seeing as these asians experience this fear, but others around The world do not, do you believe there is some ground to this Culture-specific syndrome?
Brains are strange things, shaping our lives and experiences only as much as they are shaped by them. I hardly trust a functional one. Let alone one faced with imminent demise.
Yes, there are culturally specific syndromes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
So far, nobody has a nervous breakdown over Brussels ... unless you count Brexit advocates ;-)
So you are agreeing with Pr126 then ... trust nobody? That seems to be a syndrome of the breakdown of Western civilization. If you can't trust your own brain, why trust anyone!
The EU exists! ... culturally specific insane delusion
The US exists! ... culturally specific insane delusion
Putin has a bigger penis than I do ... seems common to US Democrats ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 06:33:01 AM
So you are agreeing with Pr126 then ... trust nobody? That seems to be a syndrome of the breakdown of Western civilization. If you can't trust your own brain, why trust anyone!
I said I hardly trust a functional brain, Baruch. I do make an effort. ;-)
Those that think they are seeing "Jesus" or take a trip to "Hell" and back are generally suffering from serious delusions/hallucinations. Make them give proof, photo, vid, YouTube upload, live stream, something, anything. Hard evidence. They can't, so that answers your question.
I knew a guy who said he saw "Jesus" near his horse stables. I asked him for a photo or vid, but evidently "Jesus" had "bigger fish" to fry, couldn't stick around long enough for the photo op, which surely could have changed the current world situation, hopefully for the better. And "Jesus" never came back to visit the guy again. That's not nice.
Neuroscientists say that "tunnel of light" folks see at death is basically the brain's "electrical" shutting down, "unplugging" itself, so there's a flash of sorts, likje a camera flash, like unplugging a cord from a socket and you get that quick blue flash. The brain has alot of "electricity" running thru it, apparently.
But let's say "Jesus" actually exists. So what? He didn't do crap to change the oppressive master/slave society when he was there and has done ZERO to effect any change whatsoever in capitalist/imperialist violence, oppression on the earth today or EVER. And he doesn't save anyone from random accidents, disease, or violence, or war, or natural disasters. "He" and his "Father in Heaven" are woefully inadequate at helping the oppressed in the world. Well, they don't exist. Marx, Lenin, Mao, Castro, Guevara were far, FAR more important and influential human beings in the world effecting betterment for humankind than Dead Jesus.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on March 16, 2017, 08:42:56 PM
Once, when I was sick as a child, I had a fever dream, where a man in a white robe was standing in my back yard. In the dream, I was playing with some friends, and when I saw him, I thought he was an angel. Then my friend said, "It's Jesus! You must be dead!" I started towards him, and he started rising into the air. He said, "You can't come yet." But I was determined to go with him, and as he was slowly ascending, I grabbed a long stick, and tried to pole-vault myself up to him. Then he said, more firmly, "No! You can't come yet! You don't have enough faith!"
Not a NDE, but still a little strange, considering I had only a small amount church indoctrination, at that age.
That was rather cruel of "him".
In my mid 20s, I was in a Christian occult type thing where you were supposed to see "bright Lights" and if you practiced good enough, you would one day be able to "ascend into Heaven". I had convinced myself that I was, in fact, "seeing lights". After I quit the cult, I never "saw lights" anymore. The mind will trick you: believing is seeing. And no one from that cult has ever "ascended" they are all still walking around on Earth.
Quote from: Manga on March 16, 2017, 08:21:11 PM
Hello everyone!
I could not find any Muslim NDEs where a Muslim met Muhammad. I went as far as to search google Saudi Arabia in Arabic and Google Turkey in Turkish, still nothing. I did find NDEs of Muslims reporting that they met Jesus, and he told them to become CHristian. I also found one with a Hindu woman who saw Jesus too. I found so many with Jesus, that I am wondering whether or not that means that Christianity has more merit than the other faiths?
Metaphorically speaking, "meeting Jesus," "walking with Jesus," or similar clichés, are empty claims typical of the faithful. They are simple exaggerations of claims to knowledge. But if you actually see Jesus, that would be a psychotic break, and you need help.
Wouldn't a Muslim be sent to the everlasting fires of Hell if he saw Muhammad? Or is that just for drawing him? If you saw Muhammad, I would say you were nuts. If you had a photo, I'd say you were really nuts.
Quote from: SGOS on March 17, 2017, 09:11:04 AM
Metaphorically speaking, "meeting Jesus," "walking with Jesus," or similar clichés, are empty claims typical of the faithful. They are simple exaggerations of claims to knowledge. But if you actually see Jesus, that would be a psychotic break, and you need help.
What if your shrink "sees Jesus" too?! :kiddingme:
Interesting.....in my many years I have never heard of a person of another faith "seeing" jesus. Ever. Not in NDE nor in any way shape or form. Which I have always used to as "proof" that religion is so culturally driven that no muslim ever woke up from dream of jebus nor a jew of krishna nor a hindu of allah.
Can you supply us with your "evidence" or is it merely stories from a friend of a cousin whose brother once knew guy....
You want proof?
Hindu has an NDE of Jesus:
http://www.sakshitimes.net/blog/2008/01/01/near-death-experience-encountering-jesus-669/
Muslim sees Jesus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Y3etDQ4Ww
Another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WnDw59s6a8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEc-jLErG5c
http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=14322
there are so many links, my girlfriend's priest sent these to me, as he wants me to convert to Christianity, and now I am starting to think that I should because I can't find any NDEs of Muslims meeting Muhammad.
Quote from: Manga on March 17, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
You want proof?
Hindu has an NDE of Jesus:
[snip]
Muslim sees Jesus:
[snip]
Another:
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
there are so many links, my girlfriend's priest sent these to me, as he wants me to convert to Christianity, and now I am starting to think that I should because I can't find any NDEs of Muslims meeting Muhammad.
Word of mouth is not proof. And I'm starting to doubt your words too.
Quote from: Manga on March 17, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
You want proof?
Hindu has an NDE of Jesus:
Muslim sees Jesus:
Another:
there are so many links, my girlfriend's priest sent these to me, as he wants me to convert to Christianity, and now I am starting to think that I should because I can't find any NDEs of Muslims meeting Muhammad.
Have you even read everyone's reactions to your opening statement? If so, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that we'd see these pics as proof of Christianity? If not, why are you even here?
(Edit: links removed to keep a clear oversight on the page.)
If a Hindu, had an NDE of Jesus, in Hindi ... and had never been exposed to Christianity before (how could that be today?) ... that would be interesting. But I don't think any of the reporting believers lived in isolation from other cultures. And NDE would be at best, like a vivid dream, and what a vivid dream is, is still considered ... unreal by most people.
Quote from: Manga on March 17, 2017, 11:20:51 PM
there are so many links, my girlfriend's priest sent these to me, as he wants me to convert to Christianity, and now I am starting to think that I should because I can't find any NDEs of Muslims meeting Muhammad.
Near death experiences are just dreams. You do not see actual dead people or Heaven. In fact, you aren't even dead. But tell a guy he was dead when he had a dream (patients claim their doctor told them they died to increase the dramatic content of their tale). Apparently thinking you were dead when you have a dream makes the dream seem special. But it's just a dream. We know that the person reporting "NEAR" death experiences was never dead, because he is telling a story after he says he died. I hope you see the problem there.
First you claim that a phenomenal claim made by charlatans and nut cases is an actual event. But an illogical claim does not become more credible just because you introduce an irrelevant and questionable claim like "Muslims don't see Muhammad when they die and come back to life."
Illogical claims fail when a fallacy is introduced as part of the argument. Your claim fails in more than one place. It's a astonishingly horrible example of reasoning. It's so far outside the realm of rational and filled with such trivial and irrelevant nonsense that rational people will eventually just throw up their hands and walk away when they recognize you don't have the basic skills necessary to craft a logical progression of thought.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The brain does funny things when deprived of oxygen.
There have been studies which claim that it is not a result of oxygen deprivation.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/314115-neuroscience-struggles-to-explain-near-death-experiences/
There was one study where 30 people who had NDEs were found to have more oxygen in their brains that those who did not. Also, Dr. Jerrfry Long has a book which apparently debunks the oxygen theory. Do you think that oxygen deprivation could still be partially true?
Quote from: Manga on March 18, 2017, 03:30:42 PM
There have been studies which claim that it is not a result of oxygen deprivation.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/314115-neuroscience-struggles-to-explain-near-death-experiences/
There was one study where 30 people who had NDEs were found to have more oxygen in their brains that those who did not. Also, Dr. Jerrfry Long has a book which apparently debunks the oxygen theory. Do you think that oxygen deprivation could still be partially true?
It's also been found that the brain does continue to function after the body is legally dead. In fact, it's like a surge of activity, which understandably could create sensations that feel very real.
The Yoga sutras of Patanjali teach that "siddhis" special experiences are not to be sought out. They occur in altered states of consciousness, and people who take drugs (LSD) experience them (see Ram Das). This is not unlike thrill junkies who do bungee cord jumping ;-( ... so I suspect adrenalin rush is also involved.
Quote from: Manga on March 18, 2017, 03:30:42 PM
There have been studies which claim that it is not a result of oxygen deprivation.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/314115-neuroscience-struggles-to-explain-near-death-experiences/
There was one study where 30 people who had NDEs were found to have more oxygen in their brains that those who did not. Also, Dr. Jerrfry Long has a book which apparently debunks the oxygen theory. Do you think that oxygen deprivation could still be partially true?
There have been definitive studies that have showed that lack of oxygen is definitely a major contributing factor. There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences (https://afanporsaber.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/There-is-nothing-paranormal-about-near-death-experiences.pdf)
UM many NDEs are generic. As in the experience does not nessisarily claim a specific god in many NDEs
http://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html
Of course the Christians will flood the internet with their bullshit! You aren't likely to find stories of NDEs on our network that support any god but theirs , you'd more likely have to go to websites that speak the language of the native, and you aren't very likely to speak that language so good luck with that.
according to research people experience their own religion when dying. This is mostly the case that has been reported. The research is more accurate than hearsay you'll find on the internet. I'd trust science not christian mumbo jumbo.
QuoteThere was one study where 30 people who had NDEs were found to have more oxygen in their brains that those who did not. Also, Dr. Jerrfry Long has a book which apparently debunks the oxygen theory. Do you think that oxygen deprivation could still be partially true?
Yes, I think it's mostly deprivation, although when circulation stops, oxygen might get trapped in the brain, although I'm speculating on the mechanics of oxygen transport. Having said that, too much oxygen also affects our mental functioning, and the effect is surprising similar to the NDE experience. Deep sea divers may have been the first to experience high overdoses of oxygen, which (I have heard) can lead to strange behaviors as taking off their diving equipment thinking they can breath under water):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
QuoteProtocols for avoidance of the effects of hyperoxia exist in fields where oxygen is breathed at higher-than-normal partial pressures, including underwater diving using compressed breathing gases, hyperbaric medicine, neonatal care and human spaceflight. These protocols have resulted in the increasing rarity of seizures due to oxygen toxicity, with pulmonary and ocular damage being mainly confined to the problems of managing premature infants.
In recent years, oxygen has become available for recreational use in oxygen bars. The US Food and Drug Administration has warned those suffering from problems such as heart or lung disease not to use oxygen bars. Scuba divers use breathing gases containing up to 100% oxygen, and should have specific training in using such gases.
Quote from: SGOS on March 18, 2017, 08:55:32 AM
Near death experiences are just dreams. You do not see actual dead people or Heaven. In fact, you aren't even dead. But tell a guy he was dead when he had a dream (patients claim their doctor told them they died to increase the dramatic content of their tale).
Apparently those Christians don't read their own Bibles. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die:
but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
It also says that the dead are reserved for judgement. So even according to the Bible, dead is dead.
No ... Christians don't read the Bible. Atheists quoting scripture however ... that is funny!
SGOS ... that condition is called "rapture of the deep" for a reason ... you meet Prince Namor ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on March 23, 2017, 12:42:58 PM
No ... Christians don't read the Bible. Atheists quoting scripture however ... that is funny!
SGOS ... that condition is called "rapture of the deep" for a reason ... you meet Prince Namor ;-)
[/quote
According to my Dictionary of Nautical Terms (OK it's a book of humor written in a dictionary format), rapture of the deep is the delusion one experiences when he fills his den with nautical memorabilia, but never takes his boat out on the water. He just sits in his den reading books on seamanship and imagines he's sailing around the world and battling gales off the Cape and around the Horn. It's funnier when you can see the illustration that goes with it.
If it isn't repeatable and independently verifiable, it's not evidence.
If it's strictly based on someone's word, it's also not evidence.
Simple.
I have not read the entire bible, but I have read what Christians adhere to most of all, at least from what I learned when I had a lapse in judgement and became part of the church community in my youth, and that tends to be the first five books of the Old Testament, the first four books of the New Testament, and then the last book which is Revelations.
Quote from: Sorginak on March 24, 2017, 02:13:32 AM
I have not read the entire bible, but I have read what Christians adhere to most of all, at least from what I learned when I had a lapse in judgement and became part of the church community in my youth, and that tends to be the first five books of the Old Testament, the first four books of the New Testament, and then the last book which is Revelations.
I read the entire Christian bible several times (and others). They were dreadful, stupid, cruel, and inane.
I suspect that it has more to do with culture and the press than anything based on reality. In this country, US you can draw pictures of what you think Jesus looks like, you can publicly say it's all a load of shit and nothing will happen to you unless some nutcase takes offense and shoots you, but in many Muslim nations the same behavior might get your head chopped off so very few people are willing to say that they saw the profit in a dream or otherwise. Here you say it and you might just get on the front page of the newspaper and get 1000s of followers. Hell, find Jesus on a piece of toast and sell it on ebay.. Try selling big Mo on toast in Saudi Arabia and see where it gets you. I don't think it's going to fatten your wallet.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 10:02:05 AM
I read the entire Christian bible several times (and others). They were dreadful, stupid, cruel, and inane.
Yeah .. you are more of a Washington DC Alphabet Agency Yellow Pages guy ;-)
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 24, 2017, 10:25:09 AM
I suspect that it has more to do with culture and the press than anything based on reality. In this country, US you can draw pictures of what you think Jesus looks like, you can publicly say it's all a load of shit and nothing will happen to you unless some nutcase takes offense and shoots you, but in many Muslim nations the same behavior might get your head chopped off so very few people are willing to say that they saw the profit in a dream or otherwise. Here you say it and you might just get on the front page of the newspaper and get 1000s of followers. Hell, find Jesus on a piece of toast and sell it on ebay.. Try selling big Mo on toast in Saudi Arabia and see where it gets you. I don't think it's going to fatten your wallet.
That's ONE reason why I'm posting from the US and not Saudi Arabia... LOL!
Quote from: Baruch on March 24, 2017, 12:39:19 PM
Yeah .. you are more of a Washington DC Alphabet Agency Yellow Pages guy ;-)
Do you work at these nonsensical posts yourself, or do you subcontract someone?
Quote from: Cavebear on March 25, 2017, 02:17:35 AM
Do you work at these nonsensical posts yourself, or do you subcontract someone?
Glad you are enjoying them. I do them for you.