Hi All,
I just signed up to this forum specifically to ask this question, apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I was pondering a very very basic question recently and wanted to know if there were any plausible thought experiments or ideas on how 'something can come from nothing'. Wondering if anyone has any wiki links they could share with me?
I know this question is bound to attract many religious answers, so I would really appreciate it very much if any answers could perhaps negate religious views as i am already very well aware of this particular side of thinking.
Many Thanks
Abra Cadabra.. *poof*
:)
Your best guess is probably Lawrence Krauss. Other people will probably have other suggestions (or will disagree with mine xD)
Here's a talk. I'm not sure how good it is, as I haven't watched all of it, but from what I know most of his stuff is quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0)
Quote from: "abegeman"Hi All,
I just signed up to this forum specifically to ask this question, apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I was pondering a very very basic question recently and wanted to know if there were any plausible thought experiments or ideas on how 'something can come from nothing'. Wondering if anyone has any wiki links they could share with me?
I know this question is bound to attract many religious answers, so I would really appreciate it very much if any answers could perhaps negate religious views as i am already very well aware of this particular side of thinking.
Many Thanks
I think you're comfronting the fundamental paradox of the universe. It will be millions of years before humans understand this, if ever.
Fine! Dismiss abra cadabra.. See where that gets ya..
I love thought experiments! In my opinion something cannot come from nothing---so how can the universe be created? Even if God did it He would have to come from nothing or has always existed with no beginning or end. However, the same can be said for the universe or an infinite amount of universes. The question is: why is there something instead of nothing? It just is, like 1+1 = 2. Why? It just is. It is not a logical question to ask. 8-) Bill
Quote from: "Solitary"I love thought experiments! In my opinion something cannot come from nothing---so how can the universe be created? Even if God did it He would have to come from nothing or has always existed with no beginning or end. However, the same can be said for the universe or an infinite amount of universes. The question is: why is there something instead of nothing? It just is, like 1+1 = 2. Why? It just is. It is not a logical question to ask. 8-) Bill
Hi, thanks for your response, yes i agree the question almost seems completely illogical, and actually this question defies my logical comprehension - but equally, it is one of the most fundamental questions we can ask.
Science is based around truths - science is essentially how we prove things we know to be true - usually we start with conjecture - then prove or disprove the hypothesis.
Humans have the power to imagine many things, and preform thought experiments on these - in this case, i'm just looking for any sort of attempt at a thought experiment. If we can't even do this - it makes me wonder 2 things.
1. Are we looking at the world from a skewed reality or perspective, so much so that we can't even comprehend the most basic of questions - even in theory.
2. Is the human brain simply lacking the capacity to understand.
Quote from: "Plu"Your best guess is probably Lawrence Krauss. Other people will probably have other suggestions (or will disagree with mine xD)
Here's a talk. I'm not sure how good it is, as I haven't watched all of it, but from what I know most of his stuff is quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0)
Quote from: "Plu"Your best guess is probably Lawrence Krauss. Other people will probably have other suggestions (or will disagree with mine xD)
Here's a talk. I'm not sure how good it is, as I haven't watched all of it, but from what I know most of his stuff is quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZiXC8Yh4T0)
Thank you, I am watching this now.
We experience only a very limited experience of reality in our everyday lives because are senses are very limited, this why things that expand our sense help us understand the reality we experience. It amazes me that we have come this far in our understanding of the world we live in, and beyond, in such a relatively short time. I find the fact that we have so many questions without answers exciting. The God of the gaps in our knowledge to explain anything is as boring as the heaven Christians want to go to, to me. Heaven is right here on earth, or in our universe, if one looks for it without God being in the way. It's not the end of the trip that should be the goal, but the trip itself. Bill
Quote from: "Solitary"We experience only a very limited experience of reality in our everyday lives because are senses are very limited, this why things that expand our sense help us understand the reality we experience. It amazes me that we have come this far in our understanding of the world we live in, and beyond, in such a relatively short time. I find the fact that we have so many questions without answers exciting. The God of the gaps in our knowledge to explain anything is as boring as the heaven Christians want to go to, to me. Heaven is right here on earth, or in our universe, if one looks for it without God being in the way. It's not the end of the trip that should be the goal, but the trip itself. Bill
Thanks Bill, and I agree with you of course, I was just looking for some theories on said subject. Wasn't trying to make any God implications - ultimately inserting God(s) as we know just leads back to the same question.
Quote from: "abegeman"Hi All,
I just signed up to this forum specifically to ask this question, apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I was pondering a very very basic question recently and wanted to know if there were any plausible thought experiments or ideas on how 'something can come from nothing'. Wondering if anyone has any wiki links they could share with me?
I know this question is bound to attract many religious answers, so I would really appreciate it very much if any answers could perhaps negate religious views as i am already very well aware of this particular side of thinking.
Many Thanks
Anyone can think or claim what they want, where we find evidence is when a claim can be put in a neutral setting with control groups and have the shit kicked out of it. If the claim survives the shit kicking, you have something. If it does not, then dump it.
Quote from: "Brian37"Quote from: "abegeman"Hi All,
I just signed up to this forum specifically to ask this question, apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I was pondering a very very basic question recently and wanted to know if there were any plausible thought experiments or ideas on how 'something can come from nothing'. Wondering if anyone has any wiki links they could share with me?
I know this question is bound to attract many religious answers, so I would really appreciate it very much if any answers could perhaps negate religious views as i am already very well aware of this particular side of thinking.
Many Thanks
Anyone can think or claim what they want, where we find evidence is when a claim can be put in a neutral setting with control groups and have the shit kicked out of it. If the claim survives the shit kicking, you have something. If it does not, then dump it.
Which leads me to my original question, aside from the god argument, what are the thoughts, what are the theories and what are the claims?
Quote from: "abegeman"1. Are we looking at the world from a skewed reality.., so much so that we can't even comprehend the most basic of questions - even in theory.
2. Is the human brain simply lacking the capacity to understand.
No and no.
We are looking at the world as it is, because it is what we are looking at. We can very much comprehend not only the most basic questions but even some that are far beyond the vast majority of humans understanding.
The human brains capacity is irrelevant to whatever is or is not. We will continue to explore, and learn, and understand. Now whether we have the capacity at this time in this moment of this year.....only time will tell, but do not put limitations on our abilities when we simply have not yet accessed the file with the information when we presume the file exists.
Quote from: "aitm"Quote from: "abegeman"1. Are we looking at the world from a skewed reality.., so much so that we can't even comprehend the most basic of questions - even in theory.
2. Is the human brain simply lacking the capacity to understand.
No and no.
We are looking at the world as it is, because it is what we are looking at. We can very much comprehend not only the most basic questions but even some that are far beyond the vast majority of humans understanding.
The human brains capacity is irrelevant to whatever is or is not. We will continue to explore, and learn, and understand. Now whether we have the capacity at this time in this moment of this year.....only time will tell, but do not put limitations on our abilities when we simply have not yet accessed the file with the information when we presume the file exists.
Agreed we are looking at the world as we see it, as it is the reality we know. Similarly, if we were drunk all the time - this would be the reality that we function in, but it doesn't necessarily foster the right frame of mind for understanding. I refer to my original question. I'm looking for thought experiments on the topic, I wasn't suggesting humans are incapable of not understanding all the basic questions - just simply this one.
Paradoxically in answer to your response to the human brains limitations, and not putting limits on it. Surely we have to question what we are capable of? From understanding our own limits, we can then be free to try and expand our consciousness. Already allot of progress is being made in using computers help expand things such as our memory. Not questioning our own limits could be a limit in it's self.
Quote from: "abegeman"[I'm looking for thought experiments on the topic,
oh hell, you can be looking at a vast and completely unrelated field of crap there. Good luck.
Quote from: "abegeman"Science is based around truths
Science is based around evidence, and if there was "once" nothing, there can be no evidence of it, so science isn't the field of inquiry best suited to search for the answer. Which one is? Probably one we haven't invented yet. (Not philosophy - that's just mental masturbation.)
Quotescience is essentially how we prove things we know to be true - usually we start with conjecture - then prove or disprove the hypothesis.
Close. We start with evidence. We form conjecture to explain it. That evolves into hypothesis. When we can explain all the evidence we currently have, and there's no evidence that contradicts our explanation, we have a theory.
The only branch of science that proves anything is math.
Remember, Newton's laws of motion were considered just about fact. Then Einstein came along and showed them to be theory that fit a very limited set of conditions. (They're not true even at the limited speed of human walking, although the error is so tiny as to not matter.)
As far as something coming from nothing, consider two thoughts:
1) 'Nothing' isn't an allowed state in this reality. (I can't say "in this universe", because there was no "universe" if there was nothingness.) Therefore, if there ever was nothingness, it immediately (insofar as there can be time in nothingness) became "somethingness". Then the question becomes what is the matrix in which this nothingness and somethingness exist.
2) The universe, in one form or another, has "always" existed. The one we see now is just the current phase. (How can a man "come from" an infant? Or an ovum? Same thing, conceptually.) How could this be? Why should this be? Totally different questions. (As I always tell theists, "I don't know" isn't evidence of a god.)
Welcome to the forum.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"I think you're comfronting the fundamental paradox of the universe. It will be millions of years before humans understand this, if ever.
Maybe, maybe not.
There were decades between people thinking that driving over 30mph in early automobiles would kill a man, and another man walking on the moon.
If there's one thing that cannot be predicted with any certainty, it is how our understanding of the what is around us will or won't progress in the future.
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "abegeman"Science is based around truths
Science is based around evidence, and if there was "once" nothing, there can be no evidence of it, so science isn't the field of inquiry best suited to search for the answer. Which one is? Probably one we haven't invented yet. (Not philosophy - that's just mental masturbation.)
Quotescience is essentially how we prove things we know to be true - usually we start with conjecture - then prove or disprove the hypothesis.
Close. We start with evidence. We form conjecture to explain it. That evolves into hypothesis. When we can explain all the evidence we currently have, and there's no evidence that contradicts our explanation, we have a theory.
The only branch of science that proves anything is math.
Remember, Newton's laws of motion were considered just about fact. Then Einstein came along and showed them to be theory that fit a very limited set of conditions. (They're not true even at the limited speed of human walking, although the error is so tiny as to not matter.)
As far as something coming from nothing, consider two thoughts:
1) 'Nothing' isn't an allowed state in this reality. (I can't say "in this universe", because there was no "universe" if there was nothingness.) Therefore, if there ever was nothingness, it immediately (insofar as there can be time in nothingness) became "somethingness". Then the question becomes what is the matrix in which this nothingness and somethingness exist.
2) The universe, in one form or another, has "always" existed. The one we see now is just the current phase. (How can a man "come from" an infant? Or an ovum? Same thing, conceptually.) How could this be? Why should this be? Totally different questions. (As I always tell theists, "I don't know" isn't evidence of a god.)
Thanks for your response - enjoyed reading this one!
I thought that the "big bang theory" was a miss representation of what really scientists were saying. What they were saying is that there was this time where if we rewind every thing we see in our telescopes, every thing comes together in to what must be a singularity. because singularities (black holes) destroy every thing that goes into them there is no way to tell what happened before that point in time. and all of a sudden there was this right wing parroting with a smirk and a giggle this big bang theory thing. discusss :popcorn:
Quote from: "abegeman"Science is based around truths - science is essentially how we prove things we know to be true
This is actually incorrect. Science does not and cannot tell us what is true. Science can only ever tell us what isn't true. We are always left to then assume the only possibility left is what is true. But we're still only assuming.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news ... ossibility (http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/science/something-from-nothing-is-a-quantum-possibility)
Quote from: "abegeman"Hi All,
I just signed up to this forum specifically to ask this question, apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I was pondering a very very basic question recently and wanted to know if there were any plausible thought experiments or ideas on how 'something can come from nothing'. Wondering if anyone has any wiki links they could share with me?
I know this question is bound to attract many religious answers, so I would really appreciate it very much if any answers could perhaps negate religious views as i am already very well aware of this particular side of thinking.
Many Thanks
Heres a link!
http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2 ... e-because/ (http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/stephen-hawking-says-something-from-nothing-is-possible-because/)
Or more directly to the point, //http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704206804575467921609024244.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection, the article that the blog refers to.