First they came for Cyprus, but I wasn't a Cypriot so I did nothing ...
Then they came for Greece, but I wasn't a Greek so I did nothing ...
Now they came for India, but I wasn't an Indian so I did nothing ...
http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/18/news/india/india-cash-ban-explainer/
To ease the crisis, the Indian government has offered to take all the obsolete notes direct into the banks, as accounts (not note trade) but they will tax you at 60%
The reasoning behind this action is understandable but why did the govt. change the deadline from Dec. 30 to Nov. 24 without prior notice?. That must have increased the panic and line ups. And why tax the exchange?
Quote from: reasonist on November 28, 2016, 04:05:20 PM
The reasoning behind this action is understandable but why did the govt. change the deadline from Dec. 30 to Nov. 24 without prior notice?. That must have increased the panic and line ups. And why tax the exchange?
The details we can't know. But you seem naive about the evil of humanity, and the torturousness of human government. Soylent Curry is Indians.
I don't know if Mr Modhi is King Louis XVI, Georges Danton or Max Robespierre ... but I know he will end up at the Plac Du Concorde.
Most of the Indian economy is black market, to kill the black market is to kill their economy. At this point, if I were China ... I would be planning on invading India next year, after India is on its knees. If India goes Iran ... theocratic revolution and dictatorship, that is dangerous for China.
The biggest black market is the one that Bill Clinton created in 2000, the Dark Banking sector. What Gunga Din does is small potatoes, but the megalomaniacal ... can't stand Gunga Din getting a drink of water that didn't come thru Nestle first.
I look forward to when every stick of gum you buy, is tabulated by your government, you stinkin' peasant you!
Quote from: Baruch on November 28, 2016, 06:12:08 PM
The details we can't know. But you seem naive about the evil of humanity, and the torturousness of human government. Soylent Curry is Indians.
I don't know if Mr Modhi is King Louis XVI, Georges Danton or Max Robespierre ... but I know he will end up at the Plac Du Concorde.
Most of the Indian economy is black market, to kill the black market is to kill their economy. At this point, if I were China ... I would be planning on invading India next year, after India is on its knees. If India goes Iran ... theocratic revolution and dictatorship, that is dangerous for China.
The biggest black market is the one that Bill Clinton created in 2000, the Dark Banking sector. What Gunga Din does is small potatoes, but the megalomaniacal ... can't stand Gunga Din getting a drink of water that didn't come thru Nestle first.
I look forward to when every stick of gum you buy, is tabulated by your government, you stinkin' peasant you!
Naive maybe, I try not to be a cynic despite life experience.
You seem to have a dark picture of the future and I share much of your sentiment, but I haven't given up on humanity. Having Trump elected makes that harder for sure.
I think a much greater threat comes from India/Pakistan, Israel/Palestine and North/South Korea but the list can be extended.
India has huge problems if 80% of the economy is cash and only 2% (if I remember correctly) pay their taxes? That's unsustainable, especially with a population of a billion plus. You say to kill the black market is to kill the economy. Agreed, but what options does the government have at this stage? How do you change a culture of underground economy to an exchange of goods and services with a paper trail? The Indian govt. didn't have a lot of choices.
Why is the only model, the Western model ... Roman authoritarianism? You will look the way we want you to look, dress the way we want you to dress, eat the way we want you to eat, drink the way we want you to drink, speak the way we want you to speak, think the way we want you to think ... and you will be slaves in our Empire and be glad of it? That is what my Jewish ancestors asked, and we got the Roman answer.
The government has choices? Maybe if the Indians remained tribal, abolished their cities and governments ... they might be better off. Like the Gauls, minus the genocide of Caesar. Maybe not cynicism is mine, but the long view, that the fall of Rome was a good thing, and it should have stayed down while it could, and not rise again? Maybe Rousseau is right?
Or perhaps you dream of that chip in the hand and forehead economy dreamed of in Revelations, a tyranny beyond the imagination of Caligula?
It's much more Orwellian than that. Homeland security is the catch phrase for all invasion of privacy. You like a North Korean model with a god like dear leader/dictator, or the more subtle approach of a Dalai Lama? Maybe a dash of Khomeini or Erdogan for good measure?
We all know what we don't like in any system, but where is Utopia and where is the oh so benevolent benefactor for us all? Ghandi, Mandela? Not even close. Or are we on our own anyway, no matter what?
We are on our own. As individuals, we can't reproduce or survive for long. And that may be a good thing.
We compromise, as social groups. Then we can reproduce and survive longer. And that may be a bad thing.
It is prejudice to think that we are better, whoever "we" are. It is also prejudice to think that they are worse, whoever "they" are.
As it is, there has been no advance in politics since the Athenian democracy or the Roman republic, and quite a bit of regress. And in both of those cases, they were plagued by human vice and hubris. We live awhile, screw everything up, and then die.
That's actually a depressing thought, although I agree that hubris and solipsism is the root of this conundrum. As the primitive mammals we are, our two basic instincts (reproduction and survival) have been relegated to less importance and ignorance and greed have many times surpassed it. I think we all know (at least subconsciously) that we are only a temporary nuisance to this Planet. I said it before, our pre- frontal cortex is too small and our Adrenalin glands too big, we have no control over that. If we don't extirpate ourselves with nukes or AI, Earth will eventually get rid of us one way or another like 99% of all species before us.
I believe in Locke's Social Contract as a basis for all political systems, albeit imperfect and temporary and unless we come up with a better way to co-exist, a functioning democracy is still the best option. I always liked the idea of the Kibbutz, it works in small communities, but would be difficult if not impossible to have a country run like that. But that's one of the angles of Marxism that appealed to me when I was young.
Israel killed the kibbutz, and the moshav. When Israel became Jewish Nazism ... there was no way they would tolerate any form of socialism. These early forms of Israel, which could get along with the Arabs if they chose to, were economically liquidated like Bain Capital does to its victims, just like the US has done to Cuba. The first successful Aliyot (settlers) were Bundists from E Europe aka Marxists who weren't Bolsheviks or Mensheviks. Ironically, that is exactly what, in an urban setting, the Jewish Christians were doing in the Book of Acts. Everything in Christianity since 135 CE has been mostly bull shit, and complete bullshit after 325 CE. Though of course think of the early Jewish Christians as pacifist urban kibbutzniks. A concept so alien to the modern mind, we will have to ask the Klingons to translate ;-)
Won't matter ... anti-social groupings, now that they are global not local, will terminate, Jewish or Genitle ... just as the Soviet Union collapsed. The worst thing Putin could do is bring back the Soviet Union. The USA is on borrowed time, and can't avoid its demise either. Everything must pass, ashes to ashes and dust to dust ... including the human race. But we could continue for a long time in a high-tech solar powered (including real agriculture and real horses, not synthetic food and robots) version of our former selves. But we won't be going to the stars, apes are kept at home by the very real distances involved between systems. You either are sustainable on this one planet, or you die. Why have giant states? The Greek city state was the best version of the West, ever. Minus the Persian threat, the Macedonian threat, the Carthaginian threat and the Roman threat, it would have continued, instead of being put on the shelf for over 2000 years. Otherwise we must continue Darius' dream, Alexander's dream, Hannibal's dream, Caesar's dream ... conquer the whole world and enslave every human being under true totalitarianism.
Quote from: Baruch on November 25, 2016, 07:15:47 PM
First they came for Cyprus, but I wasn't a Cypriot so I did nothing ...
Then they came for Greece, but I wasn't a Greek so I did nothing ...
Now they came for India, but I wasn't an Indian so I did nothing ...
http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/18/news/india/india-cash-ban-explainer/
To ease the crisis, the Indian government has offered to take all the obsolete notes direct into the banks, as accounts (not note trade) but they will tax you at 60%
Came up with that idea yourself, did you?
I don't claim to be original, just claim to have a big mouth ;-)
I guess the accurate surtax value is 50% ... yeah Indian consumers!
Modi is disappointed. His tax-storm-troopers haven't found much hidden money ... turns out the Indians are poor, even if some of the money is counterfeit! But just because they are already there ... Modi has declared a confiscation of private gold, including jewelry, greater than a certain amount, as proof of tax evasion. No need for a trial, the on site tax man, can simply decide to take it, for the good of the Indian treasury.
Quote from: Baruch on November 29, 2016, 07:57:37 PM
Israel killed the kibbutz, and the moshav. When Israel became Jewish Nazism ... there was no way they would tolerate any form of socialism. These early forms of Israel, which could get along with the Arabs if they chose to, were economically liquidated like Bain Capital does to its victims, just like the US has done to Cuba. The first successful Aliyot (settlers) were Bundists from E Europe aka Marxists who weren't Bolsheviks or Mensheviks. Ironically, that is exactly what, in an urban setting, the Jewish Christians were doing in the Book of Acts. Everything in Christianity since 135 CE has been mostly bull shit, and complete bullshit after 325 CE. Though of course think of the early Jewish Christians as pacifist urban kibbutzniks. A concept so alien to the modern mind, we will have to ask the Klingons to translate ;-)
The kibbutz & moshav still exist in Israel, but their prominence (as total % of GDP) is down because of Israel's industrialized, high-tech economy. Close to 80% of Israel's agricultural output is produced on kubbitzim and moshavim (http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/economics/teachers/kislev_yoav/CoopYK-30-9-13.pdf). I suppose it's a route Israel needed to take to be competitive in a global market, as well as to be able to defend itself amidst hostile MENA region.
"These early forms of Israel, which could get along with the Arabs if they chose to" -- Jews could get along with the Arabs throughout Israel's history and to this day, but try telling the Arabs to get along with the Jews.
Quote from: Sylar on December 07, 2016, 08:08:38 PM
Jews could get along with the Arabs throughout Israel's history and to this day, but try telling the Arabs to get along with the Jews.
But the Arabs have a legitimate 'beef' as well.
http://www.timemaps.com/history-of-ancient-palestine
Would be wonderful if they could all co-exist in peace but religion has this uncanny ability to divide...
Sylar ... ever hear of collectivist factories and offices? They existed in the former Yugoslavia. High tech doesn't mean farming only. The Likud party deliberately destroyed socialism in Israel, just as their equivalent are destroying socialism in W Europe right now.
Quote from: reasonist on December 08, 2016, 11:58:11 AM
But the Arabs have a legitimate 'beef' as well.
http://www.timemaps.com/history-of-ancient-palestine
Would be wonderful if they could all co-exist in peace but religion has this uncanny ability to divide...
Apologies for late response.
"Palestine" is a region, not an ethnicity and certainly not a nationality. Palestinian nationalism developed at end of 1967 -- prior to that they were Syrian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs. Prior to 1948, Jews were also "Palestinians" because they lived in an area then-called Palestine. The ancient Philistines are not the same as modern "Palestinians", though the name Palestine is derived from the Philistines. Romans renamed the area after the Philistines in an effort to rid the world and history of any record of Jewish self-determination, as punishment to the Jews for rebelling.
Israel's demands to sign peace are clear, imo. Israel will not withdraw from WB and will not stop settlements until a peace treaty is signed, because they cannot risk another Gaza on the eastern borders. The "land for peace" formula has always been on the table for Israel, so using continued settlement as an excuse not to sign peace is a crystal clear example that Palestinians are uninterested in peace. I suppose when in public you claim to support two-state solution but in private teach your children that all of Israel is "Palestine", then it's not farfetched that peace would be the last thing on your mind.
Quote from: Baruch on December 08, 2016, 12:40:07 PM
Sylar ... ever hear of collectivist factories and offices? They existed in the former Yugoslavia. High tech doesn't mean farming only. The Likud party deliberately destroyed socialism in Israel, just as their equivalent are destroying socialism in W Europe right now.
Considering Yugoslavia is no more a state, I wouldn't say they're the best example of what economic model to follow ;).
Even as Israel embraces capitalism, it still shifts to socialism or socialist practices at times. The incumbent Likud government has interfered in economy, creating massive regulation, for example.
There's hardly a model pure socialist democracy to follow in the world.
Quote from: Sylar on January 10, 2017, 06:11:21 PM
Considering Yugoslavia is no more a state, I wouldn't say they're the best example of what economic model to follow ;).
Even as Israel embraces capitalism, it still shifts to socialism or socialist practices at times. The incumbent Likud government has interfered in economy, creating massive regulation, for example.
There's hardly a model pure socialist democracy to follow in the world.
Socialist democracy is self contradiction. So is Capitalist charity. Anarchists would have no government, but then people being people ... it is everyone for themselves and against everyone else. Statists are Procrusteans, like R-D kabuki theater .. they stretch the voters if they are too short, and cut off their legs if they are too tall.
I suppose it wouldn't be a good idea to look too closely at our own money system. Its not very healthy either.
i dont remember the original quote but Baruch's quote is simular enough to bring it to mind.... I'm not seeing the connection between the money problem's of India and the OP. maybe you are refering to a different quote. The quote I am thinking of follows this form:
The government came for the French to take them away. They asked for help but I was not French so I did nothing. Then the government came to take away the Britts, but I was nor a Britt so I just watched and did nothing. Then the government came for the Spanish to take them away, but I was not Spanish so again I did nothing. And finally the government came for me. When I called for help there were none left to help me because they had sll been taken away
Right on both counts ... nobody wants to understand money, or proctology. And the original quote was about being overly tolerant of Nazis until it was too late. Cyprus business was about capital controls, and they continue to proliferate, particularly in India. It is now said by some, that the India business originated in the US, that Modi is doing it to incorporate India into the US currency orbit (India has lots of gold, so the rupee could be independent of anyone). In particular, Nato is afraid that India will fall into the China-Russia silk road orbit.
so what would happen to all of the indian people living in the U.S.? would they be considered a threat? or does their presence here keep India from completely going down the silk road?
Quote from: fencerider on January 20, 2017, 01:50:15 AM
so what would happen to all of the indian people living in the U.S.? would they be considered a threat? or does their presence here keep India from completely going down the silk road?
We expelled a lot of Iranian students in 1979 ... we could do it again with H1B visa holders ;-) Personally I like immigrants and Indians, more so over here than back in their home country ... would rather they work for us than for their own country. Reform of H1B, like The Wall .. will be a lot of kabuki. Bring you Japanese dictionary.