Straight from the horse's mouth. For all of you emotionally driven leftists who like to throw around the term "racist", here's where it can be properly applied. They are racist and they don't deny it. I think the movement is growing because of the anti-white sentiment expressed by, ironically, equally racist elements of the left, like BLM, and because those elements are openly supported by much of the media and our current government.
"Alt-Right", is a new, more palatable, term for a very old idea. It's built on a false narrative, just like BLM, to entice those who are susceptible to identity politics.
How do you stop it? I don't know, but I think a good start would be to stop making identity politics your primary focus, whatever they may be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ3B6L2fUA8
Well I have decided to stop calling anyone from the republican party conservative because it's anything but conservative. Conservative to me is someone who combs their hair hard part to one side and doesn't like to rock the boat one way or the other. Alt would imply just an alternative to business as usual and for that they definitely are an alternative, but so would be eating shit for breakfast instead of toast and jelly.
QuoteFor all of you emotionally driven leftists...
Quote...the anti-white sentiment expressed by, ironically, equally racist elements of the left, like BLM...
Quote...because those elements are openly supported by much of the media and our current government.
Quote...stop making identity politics your primary focus...
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Quote from: Jack89 on November 16, 2016, 02:32:07 PMHow do you stop it? I don't know, but I think a good start would be to stop making identity politics your primary focus, whatever they may be.
Unfortunately, it's unlikely that leftists driven by identity politics will be dissuaded from it by the emergence of unabashed racists. Quite the opposite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp0uq-QafYQ
Quote from: Shiranu on November 16, 2016, 02:50:25 PM
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Good, it wasn't lost on you :)
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 16, 2016, 03:03:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp0uq-QafYQ
26:45 - "Functionally, these people are no different than social justice warriors. In many ways, the Alt-right is the ideological mirror of the Progressive left..." Exactly my point. I agree with his conclusions as well.
(https://allmindsthinkalike.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/bigots-rotate2.jpg)
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Quote from: Jack89 on November 16, 2016, 04:35:12 PM
26:45 - "Functionally, these people are no different than social justice warriors. In many ways, the Alt-right is the ideological mirror of the Progressive left..." Exactly my point. I agree with his conclusions as well.
I see it the same way, although I don't find them morally equivalent. The regressive Left's intention is to make life more equitable for everyone where the Alt-Right's intention appears to be concerned with making life better only for whites.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 16, 2016, 04:49:18 PMI see it the same way, although I don't find them morally equivalent. The regressive Left's intention is to make life more equitable for everyone where the Alt-Right's intention appears to be concerned with making life better only for whites.
Yeah. SJWs generally have good intentions and laudable goals. How they go about pursuing them is the main bone of contention. The Alt Right, not so much. That seems like more of a case of GIGO with extra emphasis on the G.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 16, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
I see it the same way, although I don't find them morally equivalent. The regressive Left's intention is to make life more equitable for everyone where the Alt-Right's intention appears to be concerned with making life better only for whites.
And yet there is a strong anti-white sentiment among the regressive left nowadays which fuels the fire. More equitable is an interesting way to say it :) Don't get me wrong, I considered myself a social liberal until a few years ago. Voted for Obama, twice, and was on board with the program. It's when it got a little more radical that I opened my eyes and saw that those yelling racist and sexist were exactly what they were condemning. Alt-Right = Regressive Left.
I agree that the intentions of the left mean well, but the actions of the left have been violent and oppressive, more so these last few years. You know what they say about good intentions...
Quote from: Jack89 on November 16, 2016, 05:32:44 PMI agree that the intentions of the left mean well, but the actions of the left have been violent and oppressive, more so these last few years. You know what they say about good intentions...
Yep, the road to hell. That's been my objection since day 1.
Obviously, I'm not exactly a fan of the SJW approach, but I think you're giving them too much credit with "violent and oppressive." Their typical misdeeds are borderline bullying behavior on social media, a penchant for deplatforming, and some very disagreeable actions on some college campuses. Worrying, but relatively minor for now.
My personal fear is that this would be erroneously conflated with liberalism and drive antipathy towards liberalism, which already has an image problem in the US. And for someone to go from voting for Obama to voting for Trump - two politicians whose commonalities begin and end with name recognition and regularly inhaling oxygen - this is not an entirely unfounded fear.
The Alt Right, inasmuch as it can enforce an agenda, would love to deny entry to immigrants - even those from the most dire circumstances. They also favor a nationalistic approach which even a cursory reading of history shows to have some very nasty repercussions. Undertaking such an agenda could easily very seriously hurt the country. So they're the main threat for now.
My main issue is less that people think "radical SJW" exist when they obviously do and rather more the moment any "left" movement or social says anything they disagree with, it is now radical and evil and discredited and anyone who agrees with them must be out to destroy the white heterosexual male.
And I think that the thought of these people, the RADICAL SJW, hold any actual positions of power when minorities, lgbt and women are being fucked over left and right by the people in power is a bit goofy.
The SJW threat is like getting struck by lightning while the bigots in government fuck us everyday. And yes, that will push people to being "unreasonably" pissed off ( sorry, the buzzword emotional). That's just human nature and isn't going to change any time soon.
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 16, 2016, 03:01:19 PM
Unfortunately, it's unlikely that leftists driven by identity politics will be dissuaded from it by the emergence of unabashed racists. Quite the opposite.
Ah yes, the days of street riots between Communists and Nazis in the cities of Germany. Who won that one?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 16, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
I see it the same way, although I don't find them morally equivalent. The regressive Left's intention is to make life more equitable for everyone where the Alt-Right's intention appears to be concerned with making life better only for whites.
Stalin good, Hitler bad ... no thanks.
Quote from: Jack89 on November 16, 2016, 05:32:44 PM
And yet there is a strong anti-white sentiment among the regressive left nowadays which fuels the fire. More equitable is an interesting way to say it :) Don't get me wrong, I considered myself a social liberal until a few years ago. Voted for Obama, twice, and was on board with the program. It's when it got a little more radical that I opened my eyes and saw that those yelling racist and sexist were exactly what they were condemning. Alt-Right = Regressive Left.
I agree that the intentions of the left mean well, but the actions of the left have been violent and oppressive, more so these last few years. You know what they say about good intentions...
I also voted for Obama twice, and I have never worn a bed sheet in anger. The intentions of the Left are ... dictatorship ... the intentions of the Right are ... dictatorship. I don't see anyone's intentions as beneficent ... just a choice as to who will rob and murder you.
It's a term describing a loose set of people opposed to SJW ideals, which gets thrown around at neocons and non-regressive liberals as is convenient group of racist bigots who should all be strung up by their genitals.
Quote from: Baruch on November 16, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
I don't see anyone's intentions as beneficent ... just a choice as to who will rob and murder you.
Yeah, but at least the left will rob and murder us kindly and gently...
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on November 16, 2016, 07:25:12 PM
It's a term describing a loose set of people opposed to SJW ideals, which gets thrown around at neocons and non-regressive liberals as is convenient group of racist bigots who should all be strung up by their genitals.
If you don't like certain people, aren't you a bigot? A real self-righteous puritan, would move to the top of a Tibetan mountain with Dr Strange, and not sully himself with fighting off the bad guys. Dr Strange recognizes the ambiguity of activism.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 16, 2016, 07:26:13 PM
Yeah, but at least the left will rob and murder us kindly and gently...
You forgot the /sarc ... Dr Zhivago.
I don't like the term. Why not label it for what it is? Fascism. Hitler/Mussolini would be proud. When the KKK and Duke laud Trump as their president, to say the least, does not bode well for the next 4 years. What bothers me most about Trump is his message of hate--and he has not backed off of that yet.
It simply boggles my mind that anybody who says they are a christian with christian ideals could consider voting for this hate monger. But then, the christian religion has been morally bankrupt from the start.
Trump is like Mussolini. But that is a good thing ... he was much less competent than Hitler (at killing people). Like Hillary in Libya, Mussolini was good at using modern weapons against Ethiopia. But even Mussolini was cautious in attacking stronger foes. Hillary would attack Russia.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2016, 07:40:19 PMI don't like the term. Why not label it for what it is? Fascism.
Eh, not quite that far. Fascists advocate a totalitarian one-party state and a complete elimination of democracy, these guys don't. These guys are more along the lines of white nationalists - loons ranting about minorities and calling everything under the sun a cuck. Equally repugnant, but far less pernicious.
And that's assuming that this whole "movement" isn't just a rebranding of American conservatism (or a 4chan prank gone too far)
Quote from: Baruch on November 16, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
I also voted for Obama twice, and I have never worn a bed sheet in anger. The intentions of the Left are ... dictatorship ... the intentions of the Right are ... dictatorship. I don't see anyone's intentions as beneficent ... just a choice as to who will rob and murder you.
I suppose it depends on if you're talking about the politicians or their followers. I think there a lot of leftist voters who genuinely mean well, but the people they're voting for are just in it for the power (for the most part.) I think the same is true for the right.
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 16, 2016, 08:34:20 PM
Eh, not quite that far. Fascists advocate a totalitarian one-party state and a complete elimination of democracy, these guys don't. These guys are more along the lines of white nationalists - loons ranting about minorities and calling everything under the sun a cuck. Equally repugnant, but far less pernicious.
And that's assuming that this whole "movement" isn't just a rebranding of American conservatism (or a 4chan prank gone too far)
You don't think Trump would not like to have a one party system? That would be one leg. Another would be the corporation support. He already has that. A hatred of all things socialistic and/or communistic is already in place. And he could have Congress set on fire by the musliims/immigrants and have a temporary state of emergency to take care of it. Nah..............that's just way, way, toooo far fetched. Isn't it?????
Quote from: Jack89 on November 16, 2016, 08:39:17 PMI suppose it depends on if you're talking about the politicians or their followers. I think there a lot of leftist voters who genuinely mean well, but the people they're voting for are just in it for the power (for the most part.) I think the same is true for the right.
True enough. Though I think that politicians are more like the electorate than different from it - they're simply subjected to temptations that are never offered to most people and working within a system that rewards bad behavior more than good behavior. There's a popular view of politicians as if they were some sort of villainous subrace - horrible in a way that the electorate isn't - and that if we just cleared house we'd be golden. The unfortunate truth is that they're all too human.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2016, 08:40:25 PMYou don't think Trump would not like to have a one party system?
Probably, as would a great many politicians. But to the best of my knowledge, he has never advocated for the elimination of democracy or instituting a totalitarian state. I don't like him any more than you do, but he's no Emperor Palpatine.
As an aside, I never thought I'd spend a night defending bad people from exaggerated claims of their badness. Politics is a wearisome activity.
I despise radical SJWs, but I also despise the alt-reich. Both are irrational, kooky, segregationist groups. Both live in fantasy worlds built on lies and twisted ideologies. Both groups are filled with hatred.
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 16, 2016, 09:58:13 PMI don't like him any more than you do, but he's no Emperor Palpatine.
Palpatine was far smarter. And he had the Force.
The "alt right", might even embarrass Attila The Hun...
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2016, 08:40:25 PM
You don't think Trump would not like to have a one party system? That would be one leg. Another would be the corporation support. He already has that. A hatred of all things socialistic and/or communistic is already in place. And he could have Congress set on fire by the musliims/immigrants and have a temporary state of emergency to take care of it. Nah..............that's just way, way, toooo far fetched. Isn't it?????
Or is it ... Trump = Drump = German-American?
Quote from: Baruch on November 17, 2016, 07:07:35 AM
Or is it ... Trump = Drump = German-American?
As usual, you make little sense. I know how immigrant names change from Drumf to Trump, and I don't care about that. Doesn't bother me in the least. I caught on to that with Barry Goldwasser, the 1964 Republican candidate I supported. My paternal family name in the 1800s was something like "Dispensier". It isn't that now. Who cares?
I could change my name to "Fred the Fisherman" tomorrow if I wanted to.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2016, 07:28:28 AM
As usual, you make little sense. I know how immigrant names change from Drumf to Trump, and I don't care about that. Doesn't bother me in the least. I caught on to that with Barry Goldwasser, the 1964 Republican candidate I supported. My paternal family name in the 1800s was something like "Dispensier". It isn't that now. Who cares?
I could change my name to "Fred the Fisherman" tomorrow if I wanted to.
You are the tip of the spear ... all your ancestors are the shaft ... without the shaft, the tip has no power. I was referring to Mike's comment. Looks like in retrospect, you were right to support Goldwater ;-( Johnson was a disaster.
One last thing: some on the Alt Right have a habit of writing the names of Jewish people (or perceived Jewish people) with triple parentheses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses) to stigmatize them in the eyes of other antisemites. What a scummy and vile thing to do.
I've never fully understood the antipathy towards Jewish people by so many cultures.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 17, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
I've never fully understood the antipathy towards Jewish people by so many cultures.
There are a number of reasons (all based in bogusness, of course).
One is that they are supposed to have killed Jesus, because when Pontius Pilate offered to set him free, the crowd said no.
Another is that they refused to convert to Christianity (or Islam), and were thus seen as rebellious or unwilling to submit to authority.
Another is that the New Testament forbade Christians from lending with interest, so only Jews could be moneylenders. So people got pissed off because of interest rates, etc. This is probably where the "Jews control the banks" myth originated.
Another is that Jewish communities had a tendency to avoid assimilation with the greater society, so people thought they were standoffish and secretive.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 17, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
I've never fully understood the antipathy towards Jewish people by so many cultures.
They killed Jesus, for Christ's sake!!! What's not to hate!!!!
Quote from: Baruch on November 16, 2016, 08:04:59 PM
Hillary would attack Russia.
Oh bull! I don't believe that for a second. She'd only attack one (or more) of Russia's proxies. So we'll get Chump's war instead of Clinton's?
OK...
It's not so much Chump I'm worried about, but those with whom he's surrounding himself.
They are
truly scary. And I suspect they'll really be the powers behind the throne. All the Republicans need in a president is the ability to sign his name.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 17, 2016, 04:47:11 PM
They killed Jesus, for Christ's sake!!! What's not to hate!!!!
Oh please, he came back good as new and didn't even hold a grudge.
Yeah, he said "Grudges? We don't got no grudges - we don't need no stinkin' grudges!"
Quote
Another is that Jewish communities had a tendency to avoid assimilation with the greater society, so people thought they were standoffish and secretive.
I have one disagreement with this; they didn't so much avoid assimilation so much as were denied any chance to assimilate and were ruthlessly persecuted in Europe since day one.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 17, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
I've never fully understood the antipathy towards Jewish people by so many cultures.
Jews are the ultimate conspiracy theory ... better than pod people or zombies. In 19th century Europe, Gentiles were afraid of both poor Jewish people, rich Jewish people, Jewish people who wouldn't assimilate and Jewish people who would assimilate. I suspect my mother's mother's mother was one of the assimilationists ... and then got out of Bohemia to the US way back when Victoria ruled India. Jews are acceptable in KKK US ... because we assimilated here if we hadn't already done that in the old country. Most American Jews are secular Republicans. Only Episcopalians are more Blue Blood.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 17, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
Oh bull! I don't believe that for a second. She'd only attack one (or more) of Russia's proxies. So we'll get Chump's war instead of Clinton's?
OK...
It's not so much Chump I'm worried about, but those with whom he's surrounding himself. They are truly scary. And I suspect they'll really be the powers behind the throne. All the Republicans need in a president is the ability to sign his name.
Maybe ... but there will be wars and rumors of wars ... because Jesus is always going to arrive next day ... too bad he can't get thru TSA!
Ah, so that's why he's so late!
Quote from: Shiranu on November 17, 2016, 07:06:35 PM
I have one disagreement with this; they didn't so much avoid assimilation so much as were denied any chance to assimilate and were ruthlessly persecuted in Europe since day one.
Correct, until 1800 almost now Jews were allowed to assimilate, they were considered the static version of Gypsies. In selected places after 1800, Jews were more or less allowed to assimilate ... but this made Gentiles very nervous ... particularly since the average Jew is better than the average Gentile (well, not really). Persecution of Jews in Islam dates back to Muhammad himself ... but it was an on again, off again thing. Christians were more consistent in their oppression.
Jews were considered standoffish, because they wouldn't convert to Christianity like all the stupid pagans did. Well, we were neither pagans nor stupid. And it is a Semitic tribal thing. Initially, like in Islam, the idea of someone converting into Judaism was absurd. You couldn't marry in, and you had to be born in. Similarly for the first 100 years or so, Muslims weren't in need of converts, they formed an overclass, and early non-Arab converts had to be adopted into an Arabic tribe. By 750 CE ... this ethnic barrier was breached, because Islam needed more manpower. Non-Muslims were not allowed to bear arms (and with that exclusion, paid an extra tax in its place ... frankly I think that was a good deal, if you wanted to avoid constant warfare). Jews were useful in their own communities ... not just for usury, but as an early form of international trade and banking. Jews were multilingual, and welcome in Jewish communities anywhere else. Geographically there were crypto-Jews in China and all the way West to the New World ... from the Baltic to E Africa.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 17, 2016, 07:14:17 PM
Ah, so that's why he's so late!
They wouldn't let him store the the Disciples in the overhead bins, so he could save on air fare ;-)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161118/de5fe5e17e85d3b003076690e3d3315d.jpg)
No, it means "I'm not a douchebag or a racist tool. I respect the rights and safety of all people."
Quote from: Atheon on November 19, 2016, 11:00:45 PM
No, it means "I'm not a douchebag or a racist tool. I respect the rights and safety of all people."
Alt-Right means European-American US Nativism (total contradiction). Hatred of "Others". White America a la pre Civil War days. Fear of immigrants (though we mostly all are.
It really means fear of the NEW immigrants when we are so comfortable.
Alt right salutes Donald Trump (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html)
Quote“Our definition of the alt-right is younger people who are anti-globalists, very nationalist, terribly anti-establishment,†he told The Journal, adding that the alt-right had “some racial and anti-Semitic overtones.â€
QuoteWhite identity, he said, is at the core of both the alt-right movement and the Trump movement, even if most voters for Mr. Trump “aren’t willing to articulate it as such.â€
QuoteMr. Spencer’s after-dinner speech began with a polemic against the “mainstream media,†before he briefly paused. “Perhaps we should refer to them in the original German?†he said.
The audience immediately screamed back, “Lügenpresse,†reviving a Nazi-era word that means “lying press.â€
Quote“America was, until this last generation, a white country designed for ourselves and our posterity,†Mr. Spencer thundered. “It is our creation, it is our inheritance, and it belongs to us.â€
But the white race, he added, is “a race that travels forever on an upward path.â€
“To be white is to be a creator, an explorer, a conqueror,†he said.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 21, 2016, 11:22:15 PM
Alt-Right means European-American US Nativism (total contradiction). Hatred of "Others". White America a la pre Civil War days. Fear of immigrants (though we mostly all are.
It really means fear of the NEW immigrants when we are so comfortable.
I was talking about the safety pin symbol.
The alt-right's overtones are what sink it for me ... some overtones are pleasing consonance ... others are displeasing dissonance.
That and the whole immigrant issue was fought and lost, prior to the US Civil War. The alt-right seem to be pre-Civil War too, but they are the Know Nothings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing
Just say no.
The so-called "Alt-right" are white supremacists. Some of them are also old-school fascists. Others would prefer some kind of apartheid-style solution, where there is racial separation and a government elected exclusively by whites. Admiration for Hitler is widespread among all of 'em- witness the "Heil Trump, Heil Victory" at the end of Spencer's recent speech.
As far as the comparison with SJWs goes, the ideological foundations of their respective worldviews are essentially the same. Society is understood as a set of competing races, and History is the story of racial conflict. In both cases, race is also a moral category and some races are tainted and inherently bad- for the white supremacists its the people with brown skin plus the Jews; for SJWs, its the white people.
Neither group has good intentions. Both groups are completely opposed to individual rights and to democracy. The only reason why I oppose white supremacists more than SJWs is that they are far more dangerous. Especially now.
I think you are generous ... both crazy wings hate Jews. It is the Gentile tradition ;-(
The alt-right is merely a tired combination of KKK and Nazi wannabes. They have both been around for too many years of hatred and dreams of some genetic Neverland. We are beyond that. But some of them remain like unkillable cockroaches. Enough to elect Trump, anyway...