http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2 ... y/2389553/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2013/06/04/game-of-thrones-christianity/2389553/)
QuoteBut therein lies the moral problem for some: The appeal of the series seems bound up in the senseless violence and amoral machinations — not to mention the free-wheeling sex — that the writers use to dramatize this brutish world of shifting alliances and dalliances.
That, in turn, has prompted intense debates about whether Christians should watch "Games of Thrones" at all, or whether the show's only possible virtue is depicting how the world would look if Christ had never been born — or what it could look like if Christianity disappeared tomorrow.
"Why should Christians watch 'Game of Thrones'? There's no necessity, and some will find the gratuitous sex and violence dangerous and damaging," wrote Daniel Muth of the Living Church Foundation.
But, Muth concluded, "Seeing the hopelessness and savagery of what this age threatens to become may serve to shake us from our torpor."
To be sure, "Game of Thrones" can be as "relentlessly grim" as Jonathan Ryan described it in a Christianity Today critique. As one character puts it: "When you play a game of thrones, you win or you die."
Dark magic plays a role in the plots, yes, and there are hints of something supernatural, if not altogether benign. But for the most part, the land of the Seven Kingdoms is a dog-eat-dog world dominated by soulless connivers like Lord Baelish, who concludes one chilling monologue by declaring: "Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is."
Which is not to say that the world of "Games of Thrones" doesn't have religion. In fact, it has several of them. But belief is slippery and divine justice improbable. Even those who hope there is something at the other end of the ladder — a realm above — fear that it is populated by cynical gods who view mortals the way cats regard a mouse, as something to be toyed with until it dies.
"The gods have no mercy. That's why they're gods," as Queen Regent, Cersei Lannister, coldly tells terrified young women praying for help during a siege.
For some, the most damning aspect of "Game of Thrones" may be the way that it subverts the work that it most closely tracks: J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" saga that's beloved by so many contemporary Christians.
In those novels, and the hit films they inspired, Tolkien also presents an epic struggle — but one in which good battles evil, and triumphs in the end. George R.R. Martin is having none of that.
"The sort of fantasy where all the people get together to fight the dark lord doesn't interest me," Martin told The New Republic when asked about comparisons to Tolkien.
"We don't tend to have wars or political controversies where one side is really ugly and wears dark clothing, where the other side wears white and has glowing magical swords," he said.
#-o
It's funny, because the Game of Thrones universe from what I know of it is closely related to the middle ages; aka the height of christianity.
Right, there are plenty of Christian-majority countries that were just as brutal at one time or another. A certain kind of Christian gives Christianity far more credit than it has actually earned.
Were? You're implying they aren't there anymore? There's still quite a few left.
Quote from: "Plu"It's funny, because the Game of Thrones universe from what I know of it is closely related to the middle ages; aka the height of christianity.
Exactly. A lot of it was inspired by the Wars of the Roses, and it also draws on many other historical events from European history.
Also, I laughed at the bit that implied being exposed to brutality, violence and sexual acts was un-christian given that the bible has all of those in spades.
Ah, the Middle Ages. What a fun time that was. I would think Christians would love Game of Thrones if for no other reason than to reminisce. The comparison to Lord of the Rings is a total misdirection copout.
Christians are morally obligated to hate Game of Thrones. Well, fundamentalist Christians, anyway. It has nudity, sex, violence, other gods, magic actually called "magic" instead of "miracles", no mention of Jebus... And when they say "the one true god" they aren't even hinting at the Christian God, who gets no mention. It's everything there is to hate in a show for a fundamentalist Christian. And I have $100 that says there are fundamentalist Christians who watch it...um...JUST to record all the things that are wrong with it, of course. Not because they're hoping to see nipples or anything.
...mmmm....nipples...
Quote from: "widdershins"Christians are morally obligated to hate Game of Thrones. Well, fundamentalist Christians, anyway. It has nudity, sex, violence, other gods, magic actually called "magic" instead of "miracles", no mention of Jebus... And when they say "the one true god" they aren't even hinting at the Christian God, who gets no mention. It's everything there is to hate in a show for a fundamentalist Christian. And I have $100 that says there are fundamentalist Christians who watch it...um...JUST to record all the things that are wrong with it, of course. Not because they're hoping to see nipples or anything.
...mmmm....nipples...
Yeah, I can hear that conversation- "That show is just disgusting! and that last one, where everybody died, and that poor Catelyn got her throat cut, that is just SO ungodly!" Got to keep tabs on the sinners, ya know.
Quote from: "stromboli"Yeah, I can hear that conversation- "That show is just disgusting! and that last one, where everybody died, and that poor Catelyn got her throat cut, that is just SO ungodly!" Got to keep tabs on the sinners, ya know.
Didn't the members of the Legion of Decency watch all the films they subsequently warned all Christians to not watch? Watching all that filth is a dirty job but ... you know.
Quote from: "Plu"It's funny, because the Game of Thrones universe from what I know of it is closely related to the middle ages; aka the height of christianity.
Yeah, lol, it seems that Christians are completely incapable of recognising the silliness of their own religion.
I would say that GOT is the best paraody of middle age christianity (and other abrahamic religions) there is out there.
It must also be noted that...:
QuoteFor some, the most damning aspect of "Game of Thrones" may be the way that it subverts the work that it most closely tracks: J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" saga that's beloved by so many contemporary Christians.
In those novels, and the hit films they inspired, Tolkien also presents an epic struggle — but one in which good battles evil, and triumphs in the end. George R.R. Martin is having none of that.
...Tolken was very clear that LOTR and the universe of Middle Earth was not an allegory of Christianity and the Jésus myth. It was an adventure tale which had influences of his Christian beliefs (naturally), but nothing to do with the story itself.
To suggest otherwise is nonsense and not reflected in reality (if folk don't believe me, read the preamble in the LOTR where he states it's not an allegory).
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "stromboli"Yeah, I can hear that conversation- "That show is just disgusting! and that last one, where everybody died, and that poor Catelyn got her throat cut, that is just SO ungodly!" Got to keep tabs on the sinners, ya know.
Didn't the members of the Legion of Decency watch all the films they subsequently warned all Christians to not watch? Watching all that filth is a dirty job but ... you know.
And to this day I still feel morally obligated to watch it. Also The Borgias. That's a show every good Catholic should watch and critique right there.
Quote from: "stromboli"Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "stromboli"Yeah, I can hear that conversation- "That show is just disgusting! and that last one, where everybody died, and that poor Catelyn got her throat cut, that is just SO ungodly!" Got to keep tabs on the sinners, ya know.
Didn't the members of the Legion of Decency watch all the films they subsequently warned all Christians to not watch? Watching all that filth is a dirty job but ... you know.
And to this day I still feel morally obligated to watch it. Also The Borgias. That's a show every good Catholic should watch and critique right there.
Borgia is on Netflix for free - I strongly suggest anyone wanting to know what the Catholic Church was once like give it a viewing. lol Oh my goodness. I have watched them all. Even if the stories are a tad melodramatic for effect- it's so far from pious it will make your head spin.
Personally, I think every story where good battles evil (like LOTR) -that christians grab it up as testament. That is their residing MO right? I really don't see how they can find christianity in Game of Thrones. (I've only seen a couple of episodes)
Here is what the Christians think about it: The Grim Image of Game of Thrones
The HBO series is so dark it is unrealistic.
I guess they never heard of the Dark Ages when the Church was in power.
Jonathan Ryan
Martin, a confessed agnostic who nonetheless uses religion as a central plot element throughout his books, asserts he holds a "realistic" view of human beings. For Martin, realistic means his characters are complex, "gray," and morally ambiguous. There are no heroes in Martin's books like there are in The Lord of the Rings. There is no echo of Calvin's description of human beings as "glorious ruins"—broken, but still able to bear the Image of God. Martin's image focuses on the ruin, not the glory.
I guess this would be the glory of God, but he could also mean the glory of war.
But Martin's relentlessly grim view of human beings is far from realistic. He is looking at the world with just one jaundiced, damaged eye.
Yes, an agnostic has damaged eyes because he can't see God.
The world is full of horror—but it is also full of people acting selflessly, laughing, loving and fighting hard for their communities. We are far more like hobbits than orcs, or the grim images of Martin's world. To be sure, we're all glorious ruins, damaged beyond our own ability to repair. But even so, there are fragments of laughter and joy. That's something to celebrate as we look forward to the day of the ultimate eucatastrophe, the one Tolkien himself looked to with his subcreation: the image of God in human beings restored to its full glory.
The ultimate eucatastophe sic. :shock: 8-[ :twisted: There's nothing dark about that is there? Bill
"Christians" (at least the fundie variety) always come down hard on shows with nudity, polytheism, and violence. And Game of Thrones has all three in spades. Nothing new there.
I do appreciate Martin's use of a more gray and black (or gray and gray) morality, as opposed to the standard (and painfully unrealistic) white and black.
Also, there are monotheists in Game of Thrones in the form of the followers of the Lord of Light, who use prophecy, have a messiah figure of sorts, and hold a dualistic view of the world (good versus evil), but otherwise have nothing in common with Christians.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Borgia is on Netflix for free - I strongly suggest anyone wanting to know what the Catholic Church was once like give it a viewing.
NO! My wife has this thing where she obsesses over a show which has been on for years and will sit day after day watching episode after episode until they are all done, then, sometimes, start over. One of the things she began watching was Borgia. I only walked by and heard about 10 minutes of a handful of episodes and that was enough for me. As far as I could tell it's about a fucked up, snooty family that just LOVE to say their own last name. I got sick of hearing that fucking word just from what I heard as I walked by!
It's still not as bad as
Vampire Diaries. I actually sat and watched a few of those with her. That is, until the morning I woke up bored out of my fucking skull because I dreamed about two whiny, mopey vampire brothers going from one tragic "woe is me" session to another, lamenting over stupid things in an utterly self-absorbed, overly dramatized fashion until the dream literally bored me so much I woke up. I have had dreams which could be described as boring before, but never before have I had one which literally made me bored WHILE it was happening.
Moral of the story, if the wife likes it, I don't, and I don't need to watch it to find out I don't like it. It's a constant of the universe like the speed of light.
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"...Tolken was very clear that LOTR and the universe of Middle Earth was not an allegory of Christianity and the Jésus myth. It was an adventure tale which had influences of his Christian beliefs (naturally), but nothing to do with the story itself.
To suggest otherwise is nonsense and not reflected in reality (if folk don't believe me, read the preamble in the LOTR where he states it's not an allegory).
We all know that Jesus (if he actually existed) was NOT born in December, but they don't like that reality either. "Reality" to a fundie is what makes him happy, not what's real. Christianish and English use a lot of the same words, but they don't have the same meanings in both languages.
Christians can watch Game of Thrones. They must be naked and flogging themselves the whole time. That's how the Pope does it.
Quote from: "stromboli"Christians can watch Game of Thrones. They must be naked and flogging themselves the whole time. That's how the Pope does it.
Is that what they call it these days? "Flogging"?
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "stromboli"Christians can watch Game of Thrones. They must be naked and flogging themselves the whole time. That's how the Pope does it.
Is that what they call it these days? "Flogging"?
Only if you're Catholic.
Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Borgia is on Netflix for free - I strongly suggest anyone wanting to know what the Catholic Church was once like give it a viewing.
NO! My wife has this thing where she obsesses over a show which has been on for years and will sit day after day watching episode after episode until they are all done, then, sometimes, start over. One of the things she began watching was Borgia. I only walked by and heard about 10 minutes of a handful of episodes and that was enough for me. As far as I could tell it's about a fucked up, snooty family that just LOVE to say their own last name. I got sick of hearing that fucking word just from what I heard as I walked by!
It's still not as bad as Vampire Diaries. I actually sat and watched a few of those with her. That is, until the morning I woke up bored out of my fucking skull because I dreamed about two whiny, mopey vampire brothers going from one tragic "woe is me" session to another, lamenting over stupid things in an utterly self-absorbed, overly dramatized fashion until the dream literally bored me so much I woke up. I have had dreams which could be described as boring before, but never before have I had one which literally made me bored WHILE it was happening.
Moral of the story, if the wife likes it, I don't, and I don't need to watch it to find out I don't like it. It's a constant of the universe like the speed of light.
LMAO - Are you my husband posting in hiding?
classic