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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-halstead/dear-fellow-white-people-_b_11109842.html?

QuoteDear fellow white people, let’s have an honest talk about why we say “All Lives Matter.” First of all, notice that no one was saying “All Lives Matter” before people started saying “Black Lives Matter.” So “All Lives Matter” is a response to “Black Lives Matter.” Apparently, something about the statement “Black Lives Matter” makes us uncomfortable. Why is that?


Now some white people might say that singling out Black people’s lives as mattering somehow means that white lives don’t matter. Of course, that’s silly. If you went to a Breast Cancer Awareness event, you wouldn’t think that they were saying that other types of cancer don’t matter. And you’d be shocked if someone showed up with a sign saying “Colon Cancer Matters” or chanting “All Cancer Patients Matter.” So clearly, something else is prompting people to say “All Lives Matter” in response to “Black Lives Matter.”


Many of the people saying “All Lives Matter” also are fond of saying “Blue Lives Matter.” If you find that the statement “Black Lives Matter” bothers you, but not “Blue Lives Matter,” then the operative word is “Black”. That should tell us something. There’s something deeply discomfiting about the word “Black.” I think it’s because it reminds us of our whiteness and challenges our notion that race doesn’t matter.


If you’re like me, growing up, the word “Black” was always spoken of in whispers in your family. It was like we were saying something taboo. Why was that? Because it was taboo. We might feel more comfortable saying “African-American,” but not “Black.” The reason is that we were raised to believe that “colorblindness” was the ideal for whites. We were taught that we shouldn’t “see color.” And saying the word “Black” was an acknowledgment of the fact that we did “see color.”


The problem with being “colorblind” â€" aside from the fact that we’re not really â€" is that it is really a white privilege to be able to ignore race. White people like me have the luxury of not paying attention to race â€" white or black. The reason is because whiteness is treated as the default in our society. Whiteness is not a problem for white people, because it blends into the cultural background.


Black people, on the other hand, don’t have the luxury of being “colorblind.” They live in a culture which constantly reminds them of their Black-ness, which tells them in a million large and small ways that they are not as important as white people, that their lives actually do not matter as much as white lives. Which is why saying “Black Lives Matter” is so important.


“All Lives Matter” is a problem because it refocuses the issue away from systemic racism and Black lives. It distracts and diminishes the message that Black lives matter or that they should matter more than they do. “All Lives Matter” is really code for “White Lives Matter,” because when white people think about “all lives,” we automatically think about “all white lives.”


We need to say “Black Lives Matter,” because we’re not living it. No one is questioning whether white lives matter or whether police lives matter. But the question of whether Black lives really matter is an open question in this country. Our institutions act like Black lives do not matter.The police act like Black lives do not matter when they shoot unarmed Black people with their arms in the air and when Blacks are shot at two and a half times the rate of whites, even when whites are armed. The judicial system acts like Black lives don’t matter when Blacks are given more severe sentences than whites who commit the same crimes and areturned into chattel in a for-profit prison-industrial complex.


And white people act like Black lives do not matter when we fail to raise the appropriate level of outrage at unjustified killings of Blacks or when we respond with platitudes like “All Lives Matter.”


But we still say it. We say it because “All Lives Matter” lets us get back to feeling comfortable. “Black Lives Matter” makes us uncomfortable. Why? Because it reminds us that race exists. It reminds us that our experience as white people is very different from the experience of Black people in this country. It reminds us that racism is alive and well in the United States of America.


Now, I just said the “R” word, so you’re probably feeling defensive at this point. You’re instinctively thinking to yourself that you are not a racist. You may be thinking that you have Black friends or that you don’t use the N-word or that you would never consciously discriminate against a Black person. But most racism today is more subtle than that. Sure, there is a lot of overt racism that still goes on. The KKK is still active and some white people do still say the N-word. But overt racism is really culturally unacceptable any more among whites today. The racism that we need to face today is much more insidious than white hoods and racial slurs. It is the racism of well-meaning people who are not consciously or intentionally racist.


The racism that we need to face is the racism of average white middle-class Americans who would never think of saying the N-word and would vociferously condemn the KKK, but nevertheless unwittingly participate in institutionalized racism. We most often participate in racism by omission, rather than commission. We participate in racism when we fail to see it where it exists. We participate in racism when we continue to act like race is a problem that only Black people have. We participate in racism when we seek comfortable responses like “All Lives Matter.”


We white people need to embrace our discomfort. Here are some things we can do:


1. Recognize that we are not “colorblind.”


We can start by recognizing that we all have an “implicit bias” toward Blacks. Think you don’t have it? Consider how we mentally congratulate ourselves when we treat the random Black person the same way we treat white people. Here’s a tip, if you give yourself brownie points for treating Black people like you do white people, you’re not really treating Black people like white people.


Still don’t think you have unconscious bias, go to the Harvard implicit bias testing website and take the tests on race and skin-tone. Even white anti-racism activists like me have these biases. And they come out in all kinds of subtle ways, as well as not so subtle ways.


2. Work against unconscious bias by spending time with Black people in Black spaces.


Next, go out of your way to spend time with Black people in Black community settings. Many of us live segregated lives in which we have little to no interaction with Black people. Let’s face it, Black people make us white people uncomfortable. It’s because we’ve been socialized by a racist system to fear Black people.


Even if you feel comfortable around individual Black people, you most likely do not feel comfortable in a room full of Black people. You might have Black friends, but you probably socialize with them in white spaces. Have you ever been to a Black space and felt uncomfortable? Maybe you felt like no one wanted you there. Welcome to the everyday experience of Black people in white culture.


And when you go to a Black space, go to listen rather than lead. Learn to follow. Leading is a white privilege. Let go of it for a while and learn from those whose experience you will never have. Listen to Black people, and if what they are saying or how they are saying it makes you uncomfortable, so much the better.


3. Talk to white people about institutional racism and say “Black Lives Matter.”


It’s no good sitting around feeling guilty about white privilege. We need to dosomething about it. One thing we can do is to use our white privilege to dismantle it.


One white privilege we have is that other white people listen to us. We can go into white spaces and talk to white people about implicit bias and institutional racism. We can unapologetically proclaim that “Black Lives Matter.”


After the Orlando shooting, I went to an interfaith vigil in my small conservative town. Almost no one among the speakers said the words “queer,” “gay,” or “lesbian.” This was probably unconscious, but it revealed a lingering, but deepseated discomfort among heterosexuals with gayness and queerness, a discomfort that the popular use of the acronym “LGBT” obscures. Similarly, we whites are uncomfortable with Black-ness. We don’t even like like to say the word. It feels wrong in our mouths. We hide it by using code words like “inner city” or “urban,” terms which allow us to hide from our unconscious racism. We need to say “Black Lives Matter” because we need to overcome our discomfort with Blacks and face up to our unconscious bias.


Dear fellow white people, we are in the middle of a second Civil Rights Movement. Most of us white people idealize Martin Luther King, Jr. and we like to think that we would have been on his side of things during the Civil Rights era. But the fact is that the majority of the American public did not support the Civil Rights movement while it was happening and only came to see King as a hero after he was killed.


The Civil Rights movement was unpopular among most whites when it was happening. It was unpopular because it made white people deeply uncomfortable. Today, the Black Lives Matter movement makes us uncomfortable, too. In forty years we will look back on this second Civil Rights movement and have to ask ourselves whether we were on the right side of history. If we want to be on the right side of history this time, we have to make ourselves uncomfortable. There is no comfortable way to change. And the change can start with saying this simple but powerful phrase: Black Lives Matter.

Yup, Black Lives Matter is a totally benevolent organization that doesn't want to force its views on anyone else, nor institute racial supremacy. Have a gumdrop from the gumdrop tree.

Neither protests, nor protest groups are about positive behaviour; they are NOT about well meaning and kindness, good nature, tender heartedness, spreading love, accomodation, conforming, obliging, compassion. They do not occur from these positive circumtances . IN FACT, their existence is completely the opposite of ACCOMODATING. They are all about creating negativity, disturbance, distrupt the flow of things; daily life or a process that affects the daily life; impose their issues on other groups, some times even harass people. Without creating conflict, creating a disturbance, taking solid attention nothing is done.

They are definitely out there to impose their views on other people. Promote those views, those opinions, thoughts and feelings which are results of their experiences and what they see. Because other groups of people, being people do not give a fuck about any issue if they are not suffering from or affected by themselves without being made a part of it. And by doing that they will emphasis-over emphasis their own traits, qualities, agressively defend them, promote and put them above over any other groups. This is active human nature without being a part of a protest group for starters.

There is no, has never been a protest group that people know; heard about; that actually managed to raise their voice about something that didn't develop this attitude which is a normal dynamic of being an active protest group.

In a country where racism is one of the biggest issues and has been systematic and institutional through all its existence, blaming a group like BLM with 'institutes racial supremacy' is equal to White American Christans screaming their heads off on how much they are oppressed. OR how Islam is the religion of peace. OR how West is morally superior to other cultures.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 22, 2016, 02:14:04 AM
Yup, Black Lives Matter is a totally benevolent organization that doesn't want to force its views on anyone else, nor institute racial supremacy. Have a gumdrop from the gumdrop tree.

"Black lives matter" =/= blm.


Edit: Wait, what? Just woke up, so wasn't fully braining. I don't understand what that has to do with anything... and frankly it sounds exactly like my mom when she says, "Yeah, black people only voted for Obama because he was going to give them all free Cadillacs."

An organization that is trying to enact social change to end oppression is kinda obliged to be forceful about it's views. I'm not entirely sure why anyone would expect otherwise. As for racial superiority... again... what?

Always entertaining to read "what people are really saying when they say" posts.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 07:23:24 AM
"Yeah, black people only voted for Obama because he was going to give them all free Cadillacs."

*Starts to paint herself black. Damn. Too late isn't it. :sad2:

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 07:36:55 AM
Always entertaining to read "what people are really saying when they say" posts.

Yeah in a society as open as America, that is swift and accurate in acknowledging and expressing its main issues without any political correctness, free from fear of back lash, demonisation and marginalisation, it looks ridiculous to explain certain things... Wait, what?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 22, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Yeah in a society as open as America, that is swift and accurate in acknowledging and expressing its main issues without any political correctness, free from fear of back lash, demonisation and marginalisation, it looks ridiculous to explain certain things... Wait, what?

Over the top much?

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 08:15:30 AM
Over the top much?

Nope. On the same wavelength with this one:

QuoteAlways entertaining to read "what people are really saying when they say" posts.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 22, 2016, 08:20:52 AM
Nope. On the same wavelength with this one:

Okay, if you say so, sure.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 09:15:44 AM
Okay, if you say so, sure.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a9/a5/67/a9a56776d15ca76a79a9f3d9c55d380f.jpg)

Well at the risk of courting the wrath of someone I'm going to chip in my two cents here.

It feels like there's a lot of presumption in that article. I don't know who wrote it but I guess they are white? I suppose in their mind that gives them some sort of special insight into the hearts and minds of white people. I hope I don't have to go into why that is a fallacious presumption.

Now I'm not going to respond to everything I have a problem with because I would be responding to every single line, but I will hit some key points.

First is this idea that all white people are unavoidably racist. Even those who don't believe themselves to be racist are in fact racist. Apparently just by virtue of being white. I hope I don't have to point out the racism inherent in such a viewpoint

Second, it seems like the writer really needs all white people to be racist in order to support his thaory that racism in america is universal and systematic. If there's a large population of white people out there that are not racist, that would mean that black people have a grievance with only very specific groups of people engaging in racist oppression and that would make the universal outcry against white racism seem stupid and, well, racist.

Third are his hilarious suggestions about what a white person, newly enlightened to their inherent wretchedness, can do to solve this problem of all white people secretly hating all black people.

Go spend time with black people in black spaces. Interesting. I didn't know there were places I could go with black people just waiting for a white person to show up for enlightenment. Please, you can't just go conjure black people to hang out with, and if you do hang out with some of them because of this article they will see you for what you are: a poser.

Talk to white people in white spaces about racism. Yes brilliant please excuse me while I walk into a local dunkin donuts and start screeching like a maniac about racial injustice I'm sure that will change a lot of minds. Better yet let me talk about it at work. Nothing has ever gone wrong with talking about social issues at work. Does this person even live on earth?

This article is jubk. Racism is real. There are racial issues that need to be addressed. Demanding all white people acknowledge their inherent racism and then instructing them to take unrealistic or even self destructive action in the name of social justice is not going to get the job done.

Here's a hint. Every time you suggest that white people are to blame for racism by virtue of being white, the ear they would have lent to the cause you are trying to represent gets a little more deaf. You're alienating people who would be on your side, you moronsm

This white person doesn't use the phrase, "All Lives Matter."  I just say that BLM, the organization and the phrase, encourage hatred, violence, racism, and ignorance.  The hatred BLM spreads might be understandable if there were any truth to the original claim that police across the US are targeting and killing unarmed black men, just because they're black.

At least we can check off the "Sweeping Generalizations Post" box for the day.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 22, 2016, 07:48:32 AM
*Starts to paint herself black. Damn. Too late isn't it. :sad2:

You are a bit too south and east to be a Goth ;-)

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 22, 2016, 09:47:26 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a9/a5/67/a9a56776d15ca76a79a9f3d9c55d380f.jpg)

That kitten is in WWW ... so Godzilla is going down for the count!  Lucha Libre against that son of an iguana!

Quote from: Jack89 on September 22, 2016, 10:35:40 AM
This white person doesn't use the phrase, "All Lives Matter."  I just say that BLM, the organization and the phrase, encourage hatred, violence, racism, and ignorance.  The hatred BLM spreads might be understandable if there were any truth to the original claim that police across the US are targeting and killing unarmed black men, just because they're black.

Memes matter, particularly majority memes ... the truth ... not so much.

Quote from: Baruch on September 22, 2016, 12:04:59 PM
That kitten is in WWW ... so Godzilla is going down for the count!  Lucha Libre against that son of an iguana!

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 07:36:55 AM
Always entertaining to read "what people are really saying when they say" posts.

^
QFT

Sent from your mom.

"Yeah,but white people ARE inherently racist,guys. Just look at their skin and privilege! There's no way they can't be. How dare white people use a saying that's more inclusive than the one we black lives matter people insist we use because they realize it makes people more equal, instead of dehumanizing them like we have been dehumanized for years in the past, but not as much now in recent years. Can't they see we want to cling to our oppression as a tool for making them feel bad for being prone to sunburn with their white, white skin? Can't they just accept that we want them to feel like it's up to them to try and make other people that also have light skin to feel bad about being born without as much pigment in their skin as us? How dare they walk around, looking like a light bulb. How dare they. Those glow-stick privileged jerk-faces. Horrible."


-Sincerely:(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/020/057/carlcuck.jpg)

Seems to me that language has ceased to be much use in these matters anymore as language is just too easy to manipulate and a very large portion of the population is too stupid to realize they're being manipulated with simple words.

Interesting how many people think this article implied being white makes you inherently racist when it didn't (and how every time anything regarding white privilege is brought up they have to clarify that they aren't racist). Suppressed guilt much?

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 01:32:41 PM
Interesting how many people think this article implied being white makes you inherently racist when it didn't (and how every time anything regarding white privilege is brought up they have to clarify that they aren't racist). Suppressed guilt much?

Okay, so if someone says "you're a racist" we shouldn't correct that?

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 01:47:06 PM
Okay, so if someone says "you're a racist" we shouldn't correct that?

"what he meant to say by making this article that alluded to all white people being racist was...  Etc, etc"
-sincerely:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160922/fc201ba953b670bd6aad7934bfc3564b.jpg)

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 22, 2016, 01:49:03 PM
"what he meant to say by making this article that alluded to all white people being racist was...  Etc, etc"

Sent from your mom.

Yeah. (http://rationalia.com/z/090811bla-bla.gif)

All Lives Matter is meant to troll you and piss you off. Don't feed the trolls.

All Lives Matter was a response to "fuck white people", just like Blue Lives Matter was a response to "Pigs in a blanket". I don't say "all lives matter" because I can somewhat understand why there are so many racist black people, just like I can understand why Iranians might want to chant "Death to America" when they are constantly being threatened by America. My solution to make these people not feel this way any more would be to improve their situation in life. Make it so these people have less of a reason to fear that you are a big threat to their safety or freedom. I'm not just going to say fuck them all because they're just a bunch of racist scum. It's not like their racism is the same as the racism of a rich white man. It's more understandable. Racism always sucks, but if you were born into a really shitty situation and you're not getting a fair shot at life compared to the other races around you, then obviously there is going to be a lot of anger and even racism as a reaction to that. One thing white people and the leaders of the BLM movement need to do though, is to stop acting like black racism doesn't/ can't exist, because when you do that, it doesn't just make it look like you are explaining away the black racism or making excuses for it like I might do, but it makes it look like you are giving the racism your stamp of approval and that you have zero issue with black people being racist. When you do that, you only give the "All Lives Matter" guys more credibility, so yeah, stop defending racism and putting your stamp of approval on the hatred of others based on their skin colour.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 01:32:41 PMInteresting how many people think this article implied being white makes you inherently racist when it didn't

Quote from: article[addressed exclusively to white people] We can start by recognizing that we all have an “implicit bias” toward Blacks.

Hmm...

The Black Lives matter movement was always something that seemed to be a media baby. Something to get headlines and something to race-bait for social media views and profit, but it was never as transparent until recently when the NYC bomber was caught and Shawn King published this article in The Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-african-americans-ahmad-khan-rahami-treatment-article-1.2798518). Shawn King, by many, is known as a head voice for the BLM movement. This article.... lol... He suggests that a person that was a main suspect for multiple bombings in the NY/NJ metropolitan area had VIP treatment of some sort, when in reality, someone convicted of multiple bombings, in most rational people's minds, should be taken in alive for questioning. About if there are any other bombs ready to go off, if he has anyone he is working with, who they are, and if so, where they are... etc. They (BLM) don't care about these questions. They only care about emotionally driven responses. This guy wasn't even white. He was on the authorities' radar and they knew who they were taking in. It wasn't some random call with an unsuspecting cop going to the scene. There is racism with cops and black people, but using this as an example is one of the most transparent things I've seen to why BLM is just media-race-baiting-nonsense.

So saying I don't interpret him as saying you are racist is wrong and leftist cry baby ism, but saying that he directly is calling you racist ( when he hasn't) is perfectly fine.

I'm hoping the double standard there is obvious.

Quote from: Hydra009 on September 22, 2016, 01:57:50 PM
Hmm...

That doesn't mean you give in to it, it just means it's a factor that exists.

Lots of Muslims and Christians don't interpret the Koran and the Bible to have orders and messages of violence and pedophilia, I guess lots of groups have their delusions.

Double edged sword of an argument...

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 02:58:17 PM
Double edged sword of an argument...

Yes it is. Doesn't make it any less true though.

This article seems more of a projection of people within the BLM community.

Quote“All Lives Matter” is really code for “White Lives Matter,” because when white people think about “all lives,” we automatically think about “all white lives.”

Do you not see the ridiculous in this? An all inclusive "All Lives", instead of "Black Lives" means "all white lives"? What does "all lives matter" mean when it's said by someone who is black? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06RfSRQLiWs) Or when a black person criticises Black lives matter? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOvpzI7noKs) Or when a black person also identifies the double standard logic in the community? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52eRAimHimc)

And lol @ this:

QuoteHere’s a tip, if you give yourself brownie points for treating Black people like you do white people, you’re not really treating Black people like white people.

Doesn't BLM pat themselves on the back for this sort of thing more than anyone? Does that mean Black Lives Matter is more racist towards black people than anyone if we go by that?

Black Lives Matter is a violence, race-baiting media shitstorm that has turned in to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHVwcOkmRo). FYI, the last link was a riot that was in response to the black officer that shot a black man that happened in recent news. Somehow that translated in to targeting white people.

*Edited to add links*

"Why can't we all get along?"

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 03:52:41 PM
"Why can't we all get along?"

Because while a person is smart, people are dumb, panicky animals.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 03:52:41 PM
"Why can't we all get along?"

"Why can't we get along with black people" is now the politically correct version of that.

See. saying  "why can't we all just get along" is basically saying "why can't we get along with WHITE people". And that is racist. And you're racist for suggesting we ALL get along.

Sincerely:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YU3vcvGpALQ/maxresdefault.jpg)

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 22, 2016, 02:59:36 PM
Yes it is. Doesn't make it any less true though.

Oh for sure, I was actually agreeing with your sentence and think it's 100 percent true. It's implication is where we differ.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 04:21:59 PM
Oh for sure, I was actually agreeing with your sentence and think it's 100 percent true. It's implication is where we differ.

Know where the double edged sword touches, always.

Sent from your mom.

I actually had no problem with the moniker BLM and quite understood the reason for it and had no objection to the reason for it. It does appear it went sideways pretty quick in leadership.

Quote from: aitm on September 22, 2016, 05:18:53 PM
I actually had no problem with the moniker BLM and quite understood the reason for it and had no objection to the reason for it. It does appear it went sideways pretty quick in leadership.

Agree. It started out fine. It's nowhere near that now, though. Unfortunately.

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 07:23:24 AM
"Black lives matter" =/= blm.

Bureau of Land Management?

Quote from: Atheon on September 22, 2016, 06:52:57 PM
Bureau of Land Management?

Black Lights Matter.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 22, 2016, 05:23:31 PM
Agree. It started out fine. It's nowhere near that now, though. Unfortunately.

Sent from your mom.

Penetrated and crapified by the Authorities ... like groups in the 60s?  Gotta control the narrative or the Viet Cong will win ;-(

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 01:47:06 PM
Okay, so if someone says "you're a racist" we shouldn't correct that?

What poor people want (good) is a fair share of society's benefits.  But what poor people want (bad) is to go Hatfield & McCoys on the rich.  Substitute people of color for poor people ... or ME people for poor people.  We all have gripes, most of them are legitimate (life sucks but who is to blame, or how do we make things better for everyone).  how you choose to deal with this reality of life, determines if you are benevolent or evil, if you are conservative or liberal.  That makes 4 squares of possibility, because i don't oversimplify by equating different attributes ... like poor = righteous.

So yeah, correct people if you must, but it is a lot like goring your own ox if you are silent or if you speak out.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 22, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
Seems to me that language has ceased to be much use in these matters anymore as language is just too easy to manipulate and a very large portion of the population is too stupid to realize they're being manipulated with simple words.

Called neurolinguistic programming, used by totalitarians everywhere ... get the new edition in New Speak!

Quote from: Baruch on September 22, 2016, 09:51:18 PM
Called neurolinguistic programming, used by totalitarians everywhere ... get the new edition in New Speak!

Divide and conquer.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2016, 07:48:56 PM
Black Lights Matter.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PWr_YrCjrP0/T8WyE5a238I/AAAAAAAAF3E/N_ozzpPFU4w/s1600/Black_light_bathroom.jpg)

"All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men say nothing."

"If you’re like me, growing up, the word 'Black' was always spoken of in whispers in your family. It was like we were saying something taboo."

Not in my family. We had productive discussions about race relations. My parents (and community I grew up in) were and are vigorously opposed to racism.

Oh, and while growing up, I learned it's racist to capitalize "Black" and "White".

http://www.wral.com/nc-congressman-charlotte-protesters-hate-white-people-/16039184/

Quote
(http://wwwcache.wral.com/asset/news/state/nccapitol/2016/09/22/16039201/16039201-1474589852-640x360.jpg)
Republican 9th District Congressman Robert Pittenger said protesters in Charlotte "hate white people because white people are successful and they're not."

Way to help quiet the rioting in Charlotte, Sparky!

I think there would be far less controversy if the movement had been called "Black Lives Matter, Too." But that's just another one of my Harmful Opinions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC1rjUKeELaSKsxg0O1bNGw).

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 23, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
I think there would be far less controversy if the movement had been called "Black Lives Matter, Too." But that's just another one of my Harmful Opinions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC1rjUKeELaSKsxg0O1bNGw).

Is that your YouTube channel?

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 23, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
Is that your YouTube channel?

No, I was just giving the guy a shout-out. My YouTube channel is the one linked in my signature.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 23, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
I think there would be far less controversy if the movement had been called "Black Lives Matter, Too." But that's just another one of my Harmful Opinions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC1rjUKeELaSKsxg0O1bNGw).

You are probably right, it just feels like that should be obvious what it means. I also don't see it as a big issue because it says matters... Not Black Lives Are Important or something that gives the impression of superiority.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 23, 2016, 07:26:54 AM
"All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men say nothing."

it turns out that good men aren't useful even when they do something ;-)

Quote from: Atheon on September 23, 2016, 09:47:01 AM
"If you’re like me, growing up, the word 'Black' was always spoken of in whispers in your family. It was like we were saying something taboo."

Not in my family. We had productive discussions about race relations. My parents (and community I grew up in) were and are vigorously opposed to racism.

Oh, and while growing up, I learned it's racist to capitalize "Black" and "White".

Too milquetoast ... as I understood it growing up, when a White cop pistol whips a Black man merely for being uppity ... that is racism.  What we have now is plain old murder.  That congress-critter shows that the New South went out of office with President Carter.

I was taught more by stupid society than by my parents, that judging people on the basis of their skin color is not nearly as effective as judging people on their criminal record.  Otherwise White criminals will use their natural camouflage to take advantage of you.

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 12:16:39 PM
it turns out that good men aren't useful even when they do something ;-)

I beg your pardon. I shot the shit out of S.E.A., that was useful. It got me a paycheck.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 23, 2016, 12:22:19 PM
I beg your pardon. I shot the shit out of S.E.A., that was useful. It got me a paycheck.

But where you bad person ... good at it, or merely a good person who was bad at it (rhetorical question).

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 12:23:45 PM
But where you bad person ... good at it, or merely a good person who was bad at it (rhetorical question).

Nope, I was a total Boy Scout. Just ask my mom.

Quote from: Atheon on September 23, 2016, 09:47:01 AM
"If you’re like me, growing up, the word 'Black' was always spoken of in whispers in your family. It was like we were saying something taboo."

Not in my family. We had productive discussions about race relations. My parents (and community I grew up in) were and are vigorously opposed to racism.

Oh, and while growing up, I learned it's racist to capitalize "Black" and "White".

Yeah. that's another segment that makes me feel like this article was written out of guilt for his own racism, whether he's still racist towards black people, or was in the past.

Sent from your mom.

Constantly mentioning, writing about racism, is like picking at a scab, never letting the wound heal.

Some people always see racism, even when  there is none.
Using the term as a blunt instrument either to shut people up, or evoke guilt, or fear.
Virtue signalling? White guilt?

Enough already.

Quote from: pr126 on September 23, 2016, 01:04:06 PM
Constantly mentioning, writing about racism, is like picking at a scab, never letting the wound heal.

Some people always see racism, even when  there is none.
Using the term as a blunt instrument either to shut people up, or evoke guilt, or fear.
Virtue signalling? White guilt?

Enough already.

"There is an issue, and the best way to 'fix it' is to never acknowledge it exists."

Yeah, that is historically correct. :roll:

As a white guy that lives in as a minority in South Texas I can tell you racism against white people is rapid to the point of depression. When in fact many other "races" see me they scowl and say shit to other people about me in front of me. This BLM and ALM is both representing racist shit and goes way back to the black panthers, the KKK, the Nazis, the Anti Irish natives and further back. Because if one "race" holds the standard of supereiorness then it will turn to hate faster than you could say I told you so. Just like the hate on "colored people" those same people are gonna respond to it with hate. I was born to this world after such terrible racist bullshit and am being subjective to the hate on white people, which people say "the sins of the father or cousin" and that really grinds my gears, I mean I have never said nigger(which learned from a black history awareness videos, total Irony I know) to a black person or any racial slur and yet I'm succumb to racial slurs against white people all the time. This is bullshit! Everytime I hear people protecting racial shit like BLM I obviously thing while it might provide some good protest it will eventually evolve to a racist party.

Hell no, it is being discussed ad infinitum 24/7.

Can't miss it for a second.

Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism.

Nice beard Shir.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 23, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
I think there would be far less controversy if the movement had been called "Black Lives Matter, Too." But that's just another one of my Harmful Opinions (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC1rjUKeELaSKsxg0O1bNGw).

I think it's less about the controversy and more about the direction the movement inevitably went. Now, instead of making a statement that black people need to be given equal treatment to white people, it turned in to a horrible violence-generating monster. The BLM members are the ones that are generating violence, starting protests chanting a call to kill cops.... starting riots to "beat all the whites". That was not the initial goal, but it is where the movement has become, whether people supporting the movement want to recognize it or not. The initial message was good. A little controversy is usually very good for the reason that it gets people thinking. If someone is offended, it means they're thinking in a way they aren't comfortable and aren't used to thinking.
BLM is not the animal it started out as. It's become a hateful, violent shitstorm.

Quote from: pr126 on September 23, 2016, 01:04:06 PM
Constantly mentioning, writing about racism, is like picking at a scab, never letting the wound heal.

Some people always see racism, even when  there is none.
Using the term as a blunt instrument either to shut people up, or evoke guilt, or fear.
Virtue signalling? White guilt?

Enough already.

I don't think I agree with this...

We need to talk about racism because of the fact that it still exists. The method needs to be changed. "How?" though, is the question, and I don't know that answer.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 23, 2016, 11:48:00 AM
You are probably right, it just feels like that should be obvious what it means. I also don't see it as a big issue because it says matters... Not Black Lives Are Important or something that gives the impression of superiority.

It is obvious what it means, unless you don't want it to be.  As has already been mentioned, language is easy to twist and even the obvious can be made to seem as if it's obscure if you really want to make something look stupid.  Hell, some of the responses to the article and the responses to those responses show that.  The article is clearly suggesting that "white people are racist".  It does not say it outright, but the implication is so clear that it is very difficult to miss...unless you want to miss it.

And the writer has committed a cardinal sin very closely related to racism; assuming that all people in a particular group are the same.  People who say, "White lives matter" or "All lives matter" all have X reason for doing so.  That just isn't true.  It cannot possibly be true.  We are not automatons or clones.  Each person is a unique individual with their own thoughts and reasons.  SOME, perhaps even MANY who say one of these things are actively being racist.  Others are actively being racist but don't realize that race is their motivation.  But surely some are just stupid.  They hear the message but don't understand it.  They are hearing "The lives of black people are more important than those of group X".  That's clearly not the intent of the message, but it's difficult to be precise with a 3 word title.  There MUST be those out there who are not inherently racist who simply misheard the message and are sincerely trying to correct it.

Any time someone makes a blanket statement about an entire group that statement is wrong.  There is no single reason why someone may counter "Black lives matter" with "Blue lives matter" or "All lives matter".  And certainly not all people who say, "All lives matter" really mean "White lives matter".  All lives DO matter, but if you say that as a response to the BLM movement you are missing the point.  Or potentially a racist.  But there is no single thing that can be said of all people of a very large group.  The article reads like it was written by someone who had an epiphany about themselves and projected that onto all white people everywhere, perhaps as a subconscious effort to alleviate their own guilt by pretending it wasn't really their fault, the white made them do it.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 23, 2016, 01:15:28 PM
As a white guy that lives in as a minority in South Texas I can tell you racism against white people is rapid to the point of depression. When in fact many other "races" see me they scowl and say shit to other people about me in front of me. This BLM and ALM is both representing racist shit and goes way back to the black panthers, the KKK, the Nazis, the Anti Irish natives and further back. Because if one "race" holds the standard of supereiorness then it will turn to hate faster than you could say I told you so. Just like the hate on "colored people" those same people are gonna respond to it with hate. I was born to this world after such terrible racist bullshit and am being subjective to the hate on white people, which people say "the sins of the father or cousin" and that really grinds my gears, I mean I have never said nigger(which learned from a black history awareness videos, total Irony I know) to a black person or any racial slur and yet I'm succumb to racial slurs against white people all the time. This is bullshit! Everytime I hear people protecting racial shit like BLM I obviously thing while it might provide some good protest it will eventually evolve to a racist party.

This post sums up what I'm saying pretty well.  Different people, different experiences.  I'm from rednecksville, where whitey is just starting to complain about all the black people moving into town recently, disguising it as a bitch about someone moving poor people from bigger cities into low-rent subsidized housing instead of the barely hidden, "We're going to be overrun by not-white-people!"  Here the racism I experience is as a white person, from white people, directed at others.  Draconic is the minority white and thus experiences racism as a white recipient.  Surely if we were both to counter "Black lives matter" with "All lives matter" our reasoning would not be the same.

"I don't think there was any racism until Obama got elected. We never had problems like this... Now, with people with the guns, and shooting up neighborhoods, and not being responsible citizens, that's a big change. And I think that's a philosophy that Obama has perpetuated on America. I think that's his responsibility... If people have jobs and go to work and do what they're supposed to do, there is no racism."
â€" Ohio Trump campaign county chairperson Kathy Miller

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 23, 2016, 01:26:29 PM
"I don't think there was any racism until Obama got elected. We never had problems like this... Now, with people with the guns, and shooting up neighborhoods, and not being responsible citizens, that's a big change. And I think that's a philosophy that Obama has perpetuated on America. I think that's his responsibility... If people have jobs and go to work and do what they're supposed to do, there is no racism."
â€" Ohio Trump campaign county chairperson Kathy Miller

I don't think I've ever "liked" a post that made me physically sick before.

PickelledEggs wrote:

QuoteI don't think I agree with this...

We need to talk about racism because of the fact that it still exists. The method needs to be changed. "How?" though, is the question, and I don't know that answer.

It is impossible to change people's mindset once they have internalised racism, perhaps taught by parents, which is stupid and malicious.

Re-education? Persuasion? will it work? I do not know.
But I think there are enough laws and legislations in place to curb it, if not to eradicate it.

However, at the present (in America mainly) there is an open hostility which is artificially fomented by certain groups.

Somebody is fanning the flames. This is manufactured.

Quote from: pr126 on September 23, 2016, 01:53:19 PM
PickelledEggs wrote:
It is impossible to change people's mindset once they have internalised racism, perhaps taught by parents, which is stupid and malicious.

Re-education? Persuasion? will it work? I do not know.
But I think there are enough laws and legislations in place to curb it, if not to eradicate it.

However, at the present (in America mainly) there is an open hostility which is artificially fomented by certain groups.

Somebody is fanning the flames. This is manufactured.

I don't think it's manufactured.  For as long as I have known many blacks have been openly racist against whites.  I remember hearing "White people are racist" in the '90s, an overtly racist statement.  Blacks have suffered racism for 200+ years in this country, longer around the world and it has made them angry.  Many of them long ago started seeing white people, their most populous oppressors, as a single group of "bad" people, making them racist.  Their racism, in turn, feeds white racism against them, feeding their racism against whites in a never ending circle.  It's going to take a lot of time and understanding on all sides for the issue to ever actually heal.  I don't think it's likely to happen in the lifetimes of my children's children.  It's ever bubbling under the surface, boiling over every few decades before going back to a low simmer we can all forget about for a while longer.

There are definitely some people fanning the flames, but I think most of them are doing it unintentionally. The quote Gawdzilla posted is one example of this.  And there may be some covert agents purposely doing it for some clandestine reason.  But mostly I just think it's the way things are and the way they will remain until time has healed the particular wounds that all sides keep inflicting on each other.  As time goes on the wounds get less and less serious.  The last time it boiled over in a serious way was the Civil Rights movement, which brought laws to make things better and to make future wounds less serious.  And groups like the KKK are dying out and losing all power and influence, taking away much of the organization in overt racism.  I think this will blow over, hopefully with some meaningful changes made, only to resurface again in another half century or so.

I never internalized the racism the Y-donor put out. He was a Kluxxer and it was "n*gg*r this" and "n*gg*r that" all the time. I think he was the antidote for his own hate speech.

Quote from: pr126 on September 23, 2016, 01:53:19 PM
PickelledEggs wrote:
It is impossible to change people's mindset once they have internalised racism, perhaps taught by parents, which is stupid and malicious.

Re-education? Persuasion? will it work? I do not know.
But I think there are enough laws and legislations in place to curb it, if not to eradicate it.

However, at the present (in America mainly) there is an open hostility which is artificially fomented by certain groups.

Somebody is fanning the flames. This is manufactured.

If not for the people that have it deeply ingrained, we need to do it for the newer generations to come.

Of course all lives matter, but we are delving into a situation where slogans are used for different purposes than the actual matter at hand.

Gerard

Quote from: pr126 on September 23, 2016, 01:19:04 PM
Hell no, it is being discussed ad infinitum 24/7.

Can't miss it for a second.

Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism. Racist, racism.

Nice beard Shir.

Thanks :D.

Very Achaemenid or Assyrian.  Square off the bottom and you will look like King of King's or at least king of Nineveh.

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 05:15:11 PM
Very Achaemenid or Assyrian.  Square off the bottom and you will look like King of King's or at least king of Nineveh.

Ozymandatheist?

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 23, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Ozymandatheist?

Technically that references a Pharaoh.  That and .. in Xanadu did Kublai Khan a pleasure dome decree ... more my hedonist speed.

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 05:25:52 PM
Technically that references a Pharaoh.  That and .. in Xanadu did Kublai Khan a pleasure dome decree ... more my hedonist speed.

Ozy was a pharaoh?

Greek for Ramesses the Great.

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 05:15:11 PM
Very Achaemenid or Assyrian.  Square off the bottom and you will look like King of King's or at least king of Nineveh.

Someday I need to do a DNA test. My ancestors come from all across the Mediterranean (and a fair few in Ireland), so I am really curious to see where I get my devilishly good looks from. It certainly wasn't my mom or dad...

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14358749_1088474414522249_1463876589611737023_n.jpg?oh=a726cd6c37669190fcbe7f117b6a6ac4&oe=587CBE96)

Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2016, 05:15:11 PM
Very Achaemenid or Assyrian.  Square off the bottom and you will look like King of King's or at least king of Nineveh.

I'm surprised you haven't said I look Assyrian....

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 24, 2016, 12:37:27 AM
I'm surprised you haven't said I look Assyrian....

Funny how genetics work, that someone who is probably more directly Middle Eastern than me looks more white than I do, and I look more Middle Eastern than someone who is probably more Middle Eastern than I am. You are of Syrian decent, right?

I guess the Greek, Lebanese, Italian and Jewish descent just looks more stereotypical Middle Eastern than Syrians do... *shrug*.


I think more than anything it's just the dark hair and eye shape... I have had people approach me and start speaking Spanish like they think I can understand as well...

I think it's just the beard that makes you look middle-eastern... Less to do with genetics and more to do with facial hair.

On that note, I also said that in complete jest.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on September 24, 2016, 12:05:58 AM
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14358749_1088474414522249_1463876589611737023_n.jpg?oh=a726cd6c37669190fcbe7f117b6a6ac4&oe=587CBE96)

Black lives matter
All lives matter
All?
Yes. All.
Syran Refugees?
Like I said. All.
LGBT?
What part about "All" do you not understand?
Unarmed black men?
Is there something you're not following by me saying all? I said all. So yes.
Etc
etc
etc

Fallacious meme is fallacious.

Even with my state id, where I just have stubble, people always ask me where I'm from :\.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 24, 2016, 04:27:14 AM
Even with my state id, where I just have stubble, people always ask me where I'm from :\.

Thinking about it again, If you're Lebanese/greek/jewish, you probably have some Assyrian blood in you. Or at least similar genetics. Assyria was a huge empire.

I think the bigger problem than BLM as a specific group in this discussion is that how averse and apathetic people are against protest groups in general in this forum. I don't know about America in general, but yeah save a few people the collective reaction here is very self centered and a crude.

It's turning around one thing. 'They are accusing me for being a racist. Me. Me. Me. I am not racist. It's all about me!' And my fave is 'Man, they were well OK at the beginning, but not now. They are angry, violent. Myeah'. LOL

It's all about

1. They are calling me racist. 

2. I don't like them any more after they got loud angry and hostile.

And also apparently there is this understanding or may be I should say expectation? that a protest group should please people or individuals with their menifestos, actions or their movements.

No, they don't. Seriously, they really don't. This is not my opinion, this is objectively how protest groups work. Sure they need to put something out there and try to gain supporters, but they really do not depend on this. Esp. about certain major issues which in real life a group in a society suffer in various countless scales.


See, this is like a believer's perception of reality. The idea that there is a controllable world with absolute truths, rules and laws out there on everything and anything out of those norms is against god's truth and so an abomination. And that if something was really wrong, the world wouldn't be like this. And that all this abomination is a choice AND can be corrected with belief and faith. And how the decent believers see and know what is the abomination of god's truth? Simple, because it's against the good, god fearing folk and their experiences, their existence. It's out of their norm of good and how they see themselves.

So what are the believers 'trying' to do all the time? Correcting reality, deny every problem by cherry picking everything they see around to FIX it so it would FIT in their world so they can benefit from it. Exactly like you are trying to correct the domestic issues and the reaction to those issues in your society. FYI, noone can fix reality. Except gaaaaawd! :lol: 

There isn't any real criticism in this forum against BLM or any other protest groups, feminist groups, SJW, but the exactly same crude reaction to all of them, while they could be criticised or analysed in many ways. 

I don't know if it is the culture itself or how does it define individuals, the whole problem is that you want these groups to market themselves successfully and sell something to you. Provide good advertisement, an entertaining commercial show that you would like to watch so that you could support them. And as all advertising, marketing is a show business depending on jerking people's ego off, convincing them that they need their product, of course it would never work with a real protest group.

Because simply you don't just need that product, what is more, the seller is insulting to you, to everyone. He does not give a fuck about what you think about his product, he could care less if you are interested in it or not. Surprise, he is NOT selling anything.

Reality is unspeakably ugly and deceptively simple. If there isn't something in it for you, if it goes negative on your ass you reject it. But doesn't matter if you suffer from it or not, what are you getting from it or not, it is there and it doesn't conform any entity or phenomenon. It just is.

However this doesn't mean that we can't drop 'me me me' and think and talk about it. But as it requires a lot of unlearning and learning over again; going against compartmentalising, it is not just unrewarding it is also making people despondent. And frankly just ranting about a group with 'he is saying I am  baaaad' is much easier.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 24, 2016, 04:04:40 AM
Fallacious meme is fallacious.

Sorry Pickelled, but if you don't recognize the grains of truth in that meme then you're part of the problem whether it applies to you personally or not. 

Quote from: Shiranu on September 23, 2016, 11:34:38 PM
Someday I need to do a DNA test. My ancestors come from all across the Mediterranean (and a fair few in Ireland), so I am really curious to see where I get my devilishly good looks from. It certainly wasn't my mom or dad...

Gypsy doppleganger ;-)

My alpha-Y-chromosome is shared mostly with Ossetians in the Caucasus.  Alani people.  But all my genes for the last 500 years are N W European.  So I figure has to be pro-Roman Alani who settled in France after 406 CE.  So since Summer, I have had a lot more interest in understanding Iranians in general, and Alani in particular.  Of course the majority of my ancestors are important too, just that they aren't as specific.  Women only have alpha-female mitochondrial ancestry ... men have that and the Y-chromosome alpha-male ancestry.  Indo-European folks have been around even W Europe for a long time though ... Otzi has the same Y-chromosome as I do.  He was murdered ... so perhaps he was an invader even back then, not just in late Roman times.  But the majority of my Y-chromosome (which is rare in Europe) must have got there in a larger group ... hence my suspicion about 406 CE.  My alpha-female ancestry is more common in Europe, and comes from the Cro-Magnons in S France.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 24, 2016, 12:37:27 AM
I'm surprised you haven't said I look Assyrian....

I haven't bothered to look at your real picture ;-)  I will take your word for it.  Modern Assyrians are Christians in N Iraq.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on September 24, 2016, 08:55:24 AM
Sorry Pickelled, but if you don't recognize the grains of truth in that meme then you're part of the problem whether it applies to you personally or not.

That is so good.

A good description for a racist society where nobody is racist and everything against racism gets the backlash of 'not all white people', 'black crime rate', they are calling me racist, 'they are violent'.

I'm sending you a real kiss darling.  :smooch:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 09:50:20 AM
That is so good.

A good description for a racist society where nobody is racist and everything against racism gets the backlash of 'not all white people', 'black crime rate', they are calling me racist, 'they are violent'.

I'm sending you a real kiss darling.  :smooch:

Racists say "not all white people, SJWs say "not all black people." They are two sides of the same coin who are both technically correct but also both miss the point. To quote Duncle, "The logical thing to do is throw away the coin."

I may be a hypocrite in saying that, and I apologize if that is the case.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: Baruch on September 24, 2016, 09:37:44 AM
Gypsy doppleganger ;-)

My alpha-Y-chromosome is shared mostly with Ossetians in the Caucasus.  Alani people.  But all my genes for the last 500 years are N W European.  So I figure has to be pro-Roman Alani who settled in France after 406 CE.  So since Summer, I have had a lot more interest in understanding Iranians in general, and Alani in particular.  Of course the majority of my ancestors are important too, just that they aren't as specific.  Women only have alpha-female mitochondrial ancestry ... men have that and the Y-chromosome alpha-male ancestry.  Indo-European folks have been around even W Europe for a long time though ... Otzi has the same Y-chromosome as I do.  He was murdered ... so perhaps he was an invader even back then, not just in late Roman times.  But the majority of my Y-chromosome (which is rare in Europe) must have got there in a larger group ... hence my suspicion about 406 CE.  My alpha-female ancestry is more common in Europe, and comes from the Cro-Magnons in S France.

My sister does the family research.  I'm personally not that interested in any of my ancestors beyond my grand parents who I knew.  But my sister sent in some blood or hair or something to some outfit that does some way back DNA analysis.  I've always considered myself Swedish and German, and that was the end of it, but it turns out a lot of the family DNA seems to trace back to England and Iberia.

The existence of Sweden and Germany, England, Spain, etc is just a smidgeon of man's wanderings about Europe and Asia, with his most recent past, say  ten thousand years, probably a time when he was doing more and more traveling.  But just like the creationists, I tend to measure the historical record based on my immediate life and a few years before that.  So it shouldn't be surprising that my Swedish and German heritage is just because some mentally challenged relative got disoriented in the woods on an outing and ended up in Scandinavia, and eventually his mentally challenged offspring thought they actually belonged there.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on September 24, 2016, 08:55:24 AM
Sorry Pickelled, but if you don't recognize the grains of truth in that meme then you're part of the problem whether it applies to you personally or not.

There is a grain of truth. I don't deny it. What I find issue with is how small the grain is. It's smaller than many blm-ers are making out, to the extent that they insist that people that don't mean it that way, do in fact mean it that way.

There are a bunch of people that mean "all lives matter" in the way of the meme and there are a bunch of people that mean it racist. There are also many people that mean it totally inclusive, that truly all lives matter equally. By saying it's a bad thing to say all lives matter, though... it's very hypocritical, if you think saying black lives matter is any better at this point when you see what a lot of it has become. Sure there still are a bunch of BLM members that mean it by what it's original message was, which I agree with that intent. "Black lives matter too" etc, but rioting in the streets? Professional victims? Violently targeting cops and white people purely because they're white or a cop?

If you think that "all lives matter" should go away as a saying, you're hypocritical if you don't think BLM should fix theirs in some way. At least people saying all lives matter aren't actively going around and assaulting people in the name of "all lives matter" though...

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 24, 2016, 10:33:03 AM
Racists say "not all white people, SJWs say "not all black people." They are two sides of the same coin who are both technically correct but also both miss the point. To quote Duncle, "The logical thing to do is throw away the coin."

I may be a hypocrite in saying that, and I apologize if that is the case.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

No, they are not two sides of the same coin. It would be the two sides of the same coin, if racism against white people was systematic and institutional, a historical fact and a sub culture in the country.

That's a Holywood line which the hot shot delivers with mist in his eyes, looking into the camera before throwing his hair and leave the scene.

Could you please explain what does that mean? I mean how doe sthat supposed to reflect anything remotely aboout reality?


While the collective atitude of a society on a specific issue is not up to an individual, it depends on the attitudes of individuals. If someone refuses to understand something as simple as what Popeyes posted than may be they should rethink where they stand at least to be honest with themselves.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 12:49:41 PM
No, they are not two sides of the same coin. It would be the two sides of the same coin, if racism against white people was systematic and institutional, a historical fact and a sub culture in the country.

That's a Holywood line which the hot shot delivers with mist in his eyes, looking into the camera before throwing his hair and leave the scene.

Could you please explain what does that mean? I mean how doe sthat supposed to reflect anything remotely aboout reality?


While the collective atitude of a society on a specific issue is not up to an individual, it depends on the attitudes of individuals. If someone refuses to understand something as simple as what Popeyes posted than may be they should rethink where they stand at least to be honest with themselves.

At no point did I say anything about racism against whites. I said, or rather implied, that both racism on the part of whites and high crime rates on the part of blacks were issues that each side says "not all" about. My point was that these issues will never get solved as long as we keep getting hung up on the "not all" argument.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 01:01:25 PM
Nice demagoguery.

Explain.

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 24, 2016, 12:55:40 PM
At no point did I say anything about racism against whites. I said, or rather implied, that both racism on the part of whites and high crime rates on the part of blacks were issues that each side says "not all" about. My point was that these issues will never get solved as long as we keep getting hung up on the "not all" argument.

OK. You expressed an opinion saying that BLM institutes racial supremacy and I took it that you meant a similar thing for both sides. Because also 'not all' is not a response for black crime rate.

'Not all' is strawman, it is a century old white response. Black crime rate issue is directly related to systematic-instutional racism, besides other social factors against blacks and also a real documented crime rate.

These two things are not to be compared or put against each other as two sides of as coin

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 01:15:49 PM
OK. You expressed an opinion saying that BLM institutes racial supremacy and I took it that you meant a similar thing for both sides. Because also 'not all' is not a response for black crime rate.

'Not all' is strawman, it is a century old white response. Black crime rate issue is directly related to systematic-instutional racism, besides other social factors against blacks and also a real documented crime rate.

These two things are not to be compared or put against each other as two sides of as coin

I completely acknowledge that it's a problem related to systemic racism. However, that does not mean it can be solved by flying to Candyland and having a gumdrop from the gumdrop tree. The "not all" deflection solves nothing, regardless of the issue at hand.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

This is what Popeyes posted. It is expressing how the Western culture -or American society works. This is not a 'grain' of how it works. We can post countless of documented examples of how that works. Actually, we already did. Countless times.  From invasions of Afghanistan and Irak as the recent examples, to refugee crisis, from what happens to what you are open about your atheism in your work place to how LGBT people are suffering, how the rich and the poor completely live in different worlds doesn't matter if its law or righst or social life.

This forum has been home to people -still is- being thrown out by their parents for being an atheist or homosexual or transgender. Majority of the Americans in this forum are closet atheist to protect themselves. If you are a ME immigrant in the US, it is safe to say your life sucks and has no value right now compared to a white person. People are assaulting and killing other people in ethnic outfits thinking they are muslims. Transgender people are being killed for what they are and an overwhelming amount of them are black transgender women. If you are a football player you can rape nad get away it. If you are the victim of that rape, you won't be treated teh same with him because he is an athlete.

All lives do not matter. Cut the crap. This is not a 'small' grain of turth. This is human culture, this is reality.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14358749_1088474414522249_1463876589611737023_n.jpg?oh=a726cd6c37669190fcbe7f117b6a6ac4&oe=587CBE96)

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 24, 2016, 11:01:01 AM
There is a grain of truth. I don't deny it. What I find issue with is how small the grain is. It's smaller than many blm-ers are making out, to the extent that they insist that people that don't mean it that way, do in fact mean it that way.

What is this? You are telling us what a mass of people do in fact mean while using a given name of a movement. What they mean. You are not even talking about what they are saying. You are telling us how they feel and what they think in their head when they are using it. It's a ridiculous strawman. It doesn't mean anything. The most you can say that makes sense is this: that I dont believe that... you are free to believe in anything.

But making a claim of what people mean literally has no meaning other than your fears or convictions you'd like to impose.

QuoteThere are a bunch of people that mean "all lives matter" in the way of the meme and there are a bunch of people that mean it racist. There are also many people that mean it totally inclusive, that truly all lives matter equally.

Yeah well the same bullshit.

QuoteBy saying it's a bad thing to say all lives matter, though... it's very hypocritical...

Not it isn't. Because all llives do not matter. That's a fucking lie and when everybody is perfectly aware of that FACT starting a so called movement, a subreactive against Black Lives Matter, JUST BECAUSE of BLM is another way of saying 'no, there is no racism against black people' AND this is hypocrtical. Beause All Lives Matter is something created against BLM.

They could have created an original movement/group with an original name. Why didn't the do that? All Lives didn't matter before BLM? Didn't they have issues before black people organised?

Exactly like MRAs, they are another subreactive of a reactive movement, providing newly found white vitimhood bullshit to jerk off.

Quoteif you think saying black lives matter is any better at this point when you see what a lot of it has become. Sure there still are a bunch of BLM members that mean it by what it's original message was, which I agree with that intent. "Black lives matter too" etc, but rioting in the streets? Professional victims? Violently targeting cops and white people purely because they're white or a cop?

What was this original message that you liked before and suddenly you decided they are bad? I doubt if there happened a fundamental difference in 3 years. They probably just realised that they need to ACT.

Dallas shooting has nothing to do with BLM. It's domestic terrorism. Exactly like white supremacists shooting around which is far more often, but that doesn't count as domestic terrorism in the US though, I don't see anyone raising concerns about that fact. When white christian piece of shits commit mass murder, it is mental illness.

Rioiting? Yeah protest groups often cause riots, sometimes they riot themselves. They also attack the police, throw stones, molotov cocktails, they damage public property. These are dangerous things sure, but for the 100th time, you -and most of the forum- are not just ignorant about how protest groups work, you also oddly cannot imagine how things change in matter of seconds in a march angry mass of people.

QuoteIf you think that "all lives matter" should go away as a saying, you're hypocritical if you don't think BLM should fix theirs in some way. At least people saying all lives matter aren't actively going around and assaulting people in the name of "all lives matter" though...

Sent from your mom.

As long as they are not planning any terrorist acts; kill civilians in some way, I don't think they need to fix anything.

What you are doing is shaking your finger at a mass group of people and tell them what they should feel, what they should think and how they should act AND while doing that you are painting them almost as a terrorist group; public enemy number one. And you go around the same strawmen. 

Quote"Yeah,but white people ARE inherently racist,guys. Just look at their skin and privilege! There's no way they can't be. How dare white people use a saying that's more inclusive than the one we black lives matter people insist we use because they realize it makes people more equal, instead of dehumanizing them like we have been dehumanized for years in the past, but not as much now in recent years. Can't they see we want to cling to our oppression as a tool for making them feel bad for being prone to sunburn with their white, white skin? Can't they just accept that we want them to feel like it's up to them to try and make other people that also have light skin to feel bad about being born without as much pigment in their skin as us? How dare they walk around, looking like a light bulb. How dare they. Those glow-stick privileged jerk-faces. Horrible."

The reactions you are giving to SJW groups in general are all the same. "They are calling me racist and an oppressor! ME ME ME, I I I, what does this say about me?" That's all your problem.

Surprise, this is NOT about you. The idea that this is about you is something marketed to you and to everyone with your race and gender you bought it. This is as simple as this.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 24, 2016, 01:19:19 PM
I completely acknowledge that it's a problem related to systemic racism. However, that does not mean it can be solved by flying to Candyland and having a gumdrop from the gumdrop tree. The "not all" deflection solves nothing, regardless of the issue at hand.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

OK. Let's try something else. Invading a runway in an international airport in this political climate is not picking gumdrops in a Candyland. It's taking real risks in real life for what you protest. If they tried that in the US, they be shot dead.

That it doesn't mean anything to some individuals, is something about those indiivduals.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 02:48:36 PM
OK. Let's try something else. Invading a runway in an international airport in this political climate is not picking gumdrops in a Candyland. It's taking real risks in real life for what you protest. If they tried that in the US, they be shot dead.

That it doesn't mean anything to some individuals, is something about those indiivduals.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing here, because this post of yours is a complete non sequitur to the point I was trying to make.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 24, 2016, 03:47:53 PM
I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing here, because this post of yours is a complete non sequitur to the point I was trying to make.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

OK. I tried to tell what I think from a different point, it didn't work. :lol: So, you are right. 

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 24, 2016, 12:49:41 PM
No, they are not two sides of the same coin. It would be the two sides of the same coin, if racism against white people was systematic and institutional, a historical fact and a sub culture in the country.

That's a Holywood line which the hot shot delivers with mist in his eyes, looking into the camera before throwing his hair and leave the scene.

Could you please explain what does that mean? I mean how doe sthat supposed to reflect anything remotely aboout reality?


While the collective atitude of a society on a specific issue is not up to an individual, it depends on the attitudes of individuals. If someone refuses to understand something as simple as what Popeyes posted than may be they should rethink where they stand at least to be honest with themselves.

Come to South Texas where Gringo is said everywhere and it feels like to blend in I have to cut my skin off.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2016, 04:17:11 PM

Come to South Texas where Gringo is said everywhere and it feels like to blend in I have to cut my skin off.

Those who live by the salsa, die by the salsa ... ole!

I can only say this as Central Texan... first off, Gringo is not an insult and second off... Mexican men do a shit load of shit talking, and I am not sure white people always understand that it's not malicious. You just have to have a thick skin around them.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 26, 2016, 07:48:42 PM
I can only say this as Central Texan... first off, Gringo is not an insult and second off... Mexican men do a shit load of shit talking, and I am not sure white people always understand that it's not malicious. You just have to have a thick skin around them.

Clearly you don' know shit. Gringo is used negatively by people of Latino or Mexican origin. The whole purpose for its creation in Mexico and latin countries is to insult white people. it's like cracker or any other racial derogatory word. Ive been around longer than you and I know people who have been called "Gringo" longer than me. It's still racist and the people who use it spread hatred just like those old white racists who still call Mexicans and Latinos beaners. I have been picked because the color of my skin for all my life and you think it's just not serious? WTF! Are you fucking Serious?

You want to piss me off well you FUCKING DID! YA FUCKING SJW MOTHER FUCKER!

(http://lols.me/uploads/5907c88df2965e500c98e948dfae20c0.jpg)

And i grew up with Spanish speakers my entire life, and it really isn't. You want some actual insults towards whites, guero? Jojota, plz. Bolillo needs to learn a little more Spanish. Those are insults for being white.

Gringo has to do more with your culture than your race. And frankly, you do sound like a Gringo.

Ive been picked on for the color of my skin as well, included by my own adopted family and church who called me, "our little wop". ( without papers, basically nigger for Italians and Latinos). I was a Gringo to Hispanics as well, and it had nothing to do with the color of my skin but my attitude.

And again... Mexican men are heavy shit talkers, that's just the way it is. I say this as someone who has lived in both cultures... if you live amongst Mexicans long enough, you will find the "racism" towards white people is kiddy gloves compared to what they call and do to each other.

I'm not saying your experience doesn't matter, I'm just saying that for many white people they don't know how to differentiate the machismo from actual racism.

I'm sure you have faced racism where you live because of the demographics and socio economics, but being called a Gringo is not an example of it.

Oh, and if you want to see real racism, tell a Mexican your Guatamalan, Cubano, Argentinean, or Dominicano... 

edit - and no, I honestly had no intention of pissing you off. I'm just intrigued that white men tend to be a bit thin skinned when compared to Latinos, having grown up on both sides.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2016, 09:09:19 PM
Clearly you don' know shit. Gringo is used negatively by people of Latino or Mexican origin. The whole purpose for its creation in Mexico and latin countries is to insult white people. it's like cracker or any other racial derogatory word. Ive been around longer than you and I know people who have been called "Gringo" longer than me. It's still racist and the people who use it spread hatred just like those old white racists who still call Mexicans and Latinos beaners. I have been picked because the color of my skin for all my life and you think it's just not serious? WTF! Are you fucking Serious?

and…..here we go….

Quote from: Shiranu on September 26, 2016, 09:33:46 PM


And again... Mexican men are heavy shit talkers, that's just the way it is. I say this as someone who has lived in both cultures... if you live amongst Mexicans long enough, you will find the "racism" towards white people is kiddy gloves compared to what they call and do to each other.

I only spent 12 years amongst my lovely mex's, I can tell you that a) they hate niggers. b) they hate niggers and aint afraid to say so. and c) they ain't too friendly towards dark skinned peeps. Lubbock Texas can thoroughly break the heart of a human who wants harmony among races. It is brutal there. Sad..very sad.

I apologize if anyone thought that those were my words.

Quote from: aitm on September 26, 2016, 10:00:07 PM
I only spent 12 years amongst my lovely mex's, I can tell you that a) they hate niggers. b) they hate niggers and aint afraid to say so. and c) they ain't too friendly towards dark skinned peeps. Lubbock Texas can thoroughly break the heart of a human who wants harmony among races. It is brutal there. Sad..very sad.

Definitely true. I guess it's all a matter of perspective... I have seen what real racism looks like from Mexicans, so the little bit of shit talking towards whites... It's just nothing.

I love the Latin culture, I hope to one day teach in Latin America ( provably Mexico), but they are a few decades behind us when it comes to racism between their cultures and towards blacks.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 26, 2016, 09:33:46 PM
And i grew up with Spanish speakers my entire life, and it really isn't. You want some actual insults towards whites, guero? Jojota, plz. Bolillo needs to learn a little more Spanish. Those are insults for being white.

Gringo has to do more with your culture than your race. And frankly, you do sound like a Gringo.

Ive been picked on for the color of my skin as well, included by my own adopted family and church who called me, "our little wop". ( without papers, basically nigger for Italians and Latinos). I was a Gringo to Hispanics as well, and it had nothing to do with the color of my skin but my attitude.

And again... Mexican men are heavy shit talkers, that's just the way it is. I say this as someone who has lived in both cultures... if you live amongst Mexicans long enough, you will find the "racism" towards white people is kiddy gloves compared to what they call and do to each other.

I'm not saying your experience doesn't matter, I'm just saying that for many white people they don't know how to differentiate the machismo from actual racism.

I'm sure you have faced racism where you live because of the demographics and socio economics, but being called a Gringo is not an example of it.

Gringo is a racial term whether you like it or not you have been in central Texas which is more American than South Texas, South Texas is granted the nickname North Mexico and where I live Mexicans come by everyday and gringo is used very negatively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

I'm extremely Vexed at you Shinaru.

My school was half white, half Mexican... Guess which I hang out with. Two of my friends were illegal immigrants, and I spent many afternoons at their two room shacks where 6+ people lived. I spent many more in the street playing football with 10, 15 Mexicans who could barely speak English.

Second, I lived in Las Cruces, New Mexico for three years, and lived right next to Ciudad Juarez. There whites were absolutely the ethnic minority.

As I said, it's "negative"... But it's, for them, like calling us a cracker. Woooow. So racist....

I really don't think you want to get into a Mexican cred debate :p.

I have friends that are mexican, latino or tejano too and somme of them are family. However when they use Gringo in a negative way, yes I am upset. It's racist. Learn it. And hey do white people call black people nigger and get away with it? Fuck No! So what your saying is pure bullshit and if I were you I'd stick that muslim sjw garbage up your ass and see if you like being called Gringo when people look like you should be stoned to death. I'm tired of this argument because your ignorance and double standards are fucking bullshit.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2016, 11:23:59 PM
I have friends that are mexican, latino or tejano too and somme of them are family. However when they use Gringo in a negative way, yes I am upset. It's racist. Learn it. And hey do white people call black people nigger and get away with it? Fuck No! So what your saying is pure bullshit and if I were you I'd stick that muslim sjw garbage up your ass and see if you like being called Gringo when people look like you should be stoned to death. I'm tired of this argument because your ignorance and double standards are fucking bullshit.

And again, gringo is like saying bitch. Sure, is it rude? Yeah. But is it terrible, no.

Comparing gringo to nigger is like comparing damn to mother fucker. They are simply many tiers apart on severity. You might not know this, but there is alot more background to being called that by a white person than a Mexican calling a white person a gringo. Sorry, gringo.

Not entirely sure what Muslims have to do with Mexicans, but alright.

Racist.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2016, 11:29:44 PM
Racist.

Aight, cabron.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 26, 2016, 11:34:43 PM
Aight, cabron.

Alright Mr. Fake Towel Head

(http://i.imgur.com/S0KosHO.jpg)


afaik, none of my ancestors wore turbans...

Gringo? As in Gringo Starr from the Beatles?

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 27, 2016, 03:22:16 AM
Gringo? As in Gringo Starr from the Beatles?

That's Ringo Starr. I think Gringo Star is an American band.

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2016, 09:11:41 PM
You want to piss me off well you FUCKING DID! YA FUCKING SJW MOTHER FUCKER!

(http://lols.me/uploads/5907c88df2965e500c98e948dfae20c0.jpg)

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fef8218149f3d9cf4988f216c82346e73bdc190d/0_111_1471_883/master/1471.jpg?w=1920&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=b5746667742c0f67cbf40e0b2666ba9b)

Alright. Alright, @Draconic Aiur and @Shiranu . Time to cool off.

(mostly Drac, though... Jesus fuck...)

That anteater is a nightmare from Antz ... do you think he would be fair, or just genocide Jewish ants?

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 27, 2016, 04:38:03 AM
Alright. Alright, @Draconic Aiur and @Shiranu . Time to cool off.

(mostly Drac, though... Jesus fuck...)

Oh Hell, I think you're jumping the gun.  I haven't seen any of this:

(http://ak1.polyvoreimg.com/cgi/img-thing/size/l/tid/607413.jpg)

responses in red.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2016, 12:00:49 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-halstead/dear-fellow-white-people-_b_11109842.html?

QuoteDear fellow white people, let’s have an honest talk about why we say “All Lives Matter.” First of all, notice that no one was saying “All Lives Matter” before people started saying “Black Lives Matter.” So “All Lives Matter” is a response to “Black Lives Matter.” Apparently, something about the statement “Black Lives Matter” makes us uncomfortable. Why is that? The pretentiousness of the author of this Huffpost, perhaps?


Now some white people might say that singling out Black people’s lives as mattering somehow means that white lives don’t matter. Of course, that’s silly. If you went to a Breast Cancer Awareness event, you wouldn’t think that they were saying that other types of cancer don’t matter. And you’d be shocked if someone showed up with a sign saying “Colon Cancer Matters” or chanting “All Cancer Patients Matter.” So clearly, something else is prompting people to say “All Lives Matter” in response to “Black Lives Matter.” Except when it is prostate cancer getting half the economic attention than breast cancer, but whatevs, carry on.


Many of the people saying “All Lives Matter” also are fond of saying “Blue Lives Matter.” If you find that the statement “Black Lives Matter” bothers you, but not “Blue Lives Matter,” then the operative word is “Black”. That should tell us something. There’s something deeply discomfiting about the word “Black.” I think it’s because it reminds us of our whiteness and challenges our notion that race doesn’t matter.Maybe in your pretentious SJW metric, for me it is about not giving one systemic appropriation of the word "Black" to have some special meaning other than skin color. It doesn't bother me as much that you think you pretend to know what every white (wo)man thinks.


If you’re like me, growing up, the word “Black” was always spoken of in whispers in your family. It was like we were saying something taboo. Why was that? Because it was taboo. We might feel more comfortable saying “African-American,” but not “Black.” The reason is that we were raised to believe that “colorblindness” was the ideal for whites. We were taught that we shouldn’t “see color.” And saying the word “Black” was an acknowledgment of the fact that we did “see color.”You're retarded. By making this an issue in the first place, instead of ignoring color and just take people for their character instead of skin color, you're perpetrating the idiom "I'm not a racist" racism. Ironic, I know.


The problem with being “colorblind” â€" aside from the fact that we’re not really â€" is that it is really a white privilege to be able to ignore race. White people like me have the luxury of not paying attention to race â€" white or black. The reason is because whiteness is treated as the default in our society. Whiteness is not a problem for white people, because it blends into the cultural background. Really depends where you are. As in, geographic location and cultural environment, I'll grant you that, however we can't ignore race because idiots like you keep stigmatizing racial differences (i.e. skin color differences) into cultural clashes, when we'd be much better off seeing the character of people instead.


Black people, on the other hand, don’t have the luxury of being “colorblind.” They live in a culture which constantly reminds them (I wonder who that might be doing that) of their Black-ness, which tells them in a million large and small ways that they are not as important as white people, that their lives actually do not matter as much as white lives. Which is why saying “Black Lives Matter” is so important. You're talking out your ass. No, really. Stop pretending that skin color has any significance other than the obvious physical attributes. You're inadvertently making it worse to accept people for their character by grace of what they do and say, and furthering racial division. Cut it out.


“All Lives Matter” is a problem because it refocuses the issue away from systemic racism and Black lives. It distracts and diminishes the message that Black lives matter or that they should matter more than they do. “All Lives Matter” is really code for “White Lives Matter,” because when white people think about “all lives,” we automatically think about “all white lives.” I'm wary of re-definition word games and "what it really means" ploys. All lives DO matter. I might as well play the "white" card (or any racial card for that matter) and say that you just want to further the racial divide. See how that works out?


We need to say “Black Lives Matter,” because we’re not living it. No one is questioning whether white lives matter or whether police lives matter. But the question of whether Black lives really matter is an open question in this country. Our institutions act like Black lives do not matter.The police act like Black lives do not matter when they shoot unarmed Black people with their arms in the air and when Blacks are shot at two and a half times the rate of whites, even when whites are armed. The judicial system acts like Black lives don’t matter when Blacks are given more severe sentences than whites who commit the same crimes and areturned into chattel in a for-profit prison-industrial complex. That's racist. Not to mention factually false.


And white people act like Black lives do not matter when we fail to raise the appropriate level of outrage at unjustified killings of Blacks or when we respond with platitudes like “All Lives Matter.” It's more in the line of white people being shot by police doesn't receive quite as nearly as much attention as when a black person is killed by police, but do continue deluding yourself.


But we still say it. We say it because “All Lives Matter” lets us get back to feeling comfortable. “Black Lives Matter” makes us uncomfortable. Why? Because it reminds us that race exists. It reminds us that our experience as white people is very different from the experience of Black people in this country. It reminds us that racism is alive and well in the United States of America. You know what stops racism? When we stop talking about it; separating people based on racial identifiers. You'll be surprised how that'll work out.


Now, I just said the “R” word, so you’re probably feeling defensive at this point. You’re instinctively thinking to yourself that you are not a racist. You may be thinking that you have Black friends or that you don’t use the N-word or that you would never consciously discriminate against a Black person. But most racism today is more subtle than that. Sure, there is a lot of overt racism that still goes on. The KKK is still active and some white people do still say the N-word. But overt racism is really culturally unacceptable any more among whites today. The racism that we need to face today is much more insidious than white hoods and racial slurs. It is the racism of well-meaning people who are not consciously or intentionally racist. *sigh* "I'm not a racist" racism slurs and you're doing it yourself. The irony.


The racism that we need to face is the racism of average white middle-class Americans who would never think of saying the N-word and would vociferously condemn the KKK, but nevertheless unwittingly participate in institutionalized racism. We most often participate in racism by omission, rather than commission. We participate in racism when we fail to see it where it exists. We participate in racism when we continue to act like race is a problem that only Black people have. We participate in racism when we seek comfortable responses like “All Lives Matter.” Or you're simply too blind to see that well-meaning people don't want to segregate people based on race, did that ever occur to you?


We white people need to embrace our discomfort. Here are some things we can do:


1. Recognize that we are not “colorblind.”


We can start by recognizing that we all have an “implicit bias” toward Blacks. Think you don’t have it? Consider how we mentally congratulate ourselves when we treat the random Black person the same way we treat white people. Here’s a tip, if you give yourself brownie points for treating Black people like you do white people, you’re not really treating Black people like white people.


Still don’t think you have unconscious bias, go to the Harvard implicit bias testing website and take the tests on race and skin-tone. Even white anti-racism activists like me have these biases. And they come out in all kinds of subtle ways, as well as not so subtle ways. Who in their right mind does this? Unless you think the KKK is secretly polluting the airs with their racism kool-aid, this is just stupid. NOT being a racist is simply talking with someone on the merits of what they say and do and IGNORING the color of their skin, the color of their eyes, hair, etc.


2. Work against unconscious bias by spending time with Black people in Black spaces. the irony is lost on you. "Black spaces"? Really?


Next, go out of your way to spend time with Black people in Black community settings. Many of us live segregated lives in which we have little to no interaction with Black people. Let’s face it, Black people make us white people uncomfortable. It’s because we’ve been socialized by a racist system to fear Black people.


Even if you feel comfortable around individual Black people, you most likely do not feel comfortable in a room full of Black people. You might have Black friends, but you probably socialize with them in white spaces. Have you ever been to a Black space and felt uncomfortable? Maybe you felt like no one wanted you there. Welcome to the everyday experience of Black people in white culture. I don't know where to start, but "White spaces", "Black spaces"? Since when did a place attain racial attributes?


And when you go to a Black space, go to listen rather than lead. Learn to follow. Leading is a white privilege. Let go of it for a while and learn from those whose experience you will never have. Listen to Black people, and if what they are saying or how they are saying it makes you uncomfortable, so much the better. You're out of your mind & a racist of the "But I have black friends" type.


3. Talk to white people about institutional racism and say “Black Lives Matter.”


It’s no good sitting around feeling guilty about white privilege. We need to dosomething about it. One thing we can do is to use our white privilege to dismantle it. geez, "white privilege". You've been drinking too much of the SJW kool-aid.


One white privilege we have is that other white people listen to us. We can go into white spaces and talk to white people about implicit bias and institutional racism. We can unapologetically proclaim that “Black Lives Matter.” Some people are more equal than others. Try egalitarianism.


After the Orlando shooting, I went to an interfaith vigil in my small conservative town. Almost no one among the speakers said the words “queer,” “gay,” or “lesbian.” This was probably unconscious, but it revealed a lingering, but deepseated discomfort among heterosexuals with gayness and queerness, a discomfort that the popular use of the acronym “LGBT” obscures. Similarly, we whites are uncomfortable with Black-ness. We don’t even like like to say the word. It feels wrong in our mouths. We hide it by using code words like “inner city” or “urban,” terms which allow us to hide from our unconscious racism. We need to say “Black Lives Matter” because we need to overcome our discomfort with Blacks and face up to our unconscious bias. More of the re-definition word games. People, I'm probably going on a limb here, don't use the word "queer", "gay" et.al. because people like you stigmatize their use.


Dear fellow white people, we are in the middle of a second Civil Rights Movement. Most of us white people idealize Martin Luther King, Jr. and we like to think that we would have been on his side of things during the Civil Rights era. But the fact is that the majority of the American public did not support the Civil Rights movement while it was happening and only came to see King as a hero after he was killed. Because he wasn't a racist, but civil rights leader, unlike you.


The Civil Rights movement was unpopular among most whites when it was happening. It was unpopular because it made white people deeply uncomfortable. (This is very Freudian) Today, the Black Lives Matter movement makes us uncomfortable, too. In forty years we will look back on this second Civil Rights movement and have to ask ourselves whether we were on the right side of history. If we want to be on the right side of history this time, we have to make ourselves uncomfortable. There is no comfortable way to change. That's because you're a racist. And the change can start with saying this simple but powerful phrase: Black Lives Matter. All people are equal, yet some are more equal than others.

That was a wonderful post.  The SJWs will ignore it, because it violates their equalitarian (not egalitarian) dogma, their revolutionary cadre has to make things temporarily unequal, and ignore some people's rights and even kill them, until the running dogs of capitalism etc are squared away.  Also there is a basic philosophical difference ... between those who judge people based on their perceived social class delusion vs those who judge people based on what they do as individuals.  That social class includes not only wealth, but also skin color or ethnicity in the war of minority privilege.  White males are ... a minority compared to all other people as a group ... as are Black males etc.  That is how class division works usually, the only class division where the minority is the majority are ... women as a group (but not White or Black women as separate groups).  The problem with political ideology is that it is self righteous and un-self-reflecting.  It establishes domestic enemies for demonization, just as we do in war against foreign nations.  Not that I think White males are wonderful people ... we are all beasts, every human is.  But a Cold Civil War is unsettling for any nation ... and it has been going on since 1865, currently culminating in Mr Obama trying to wear Mr Lincoln's stove pipe hat.

well, you'll never hear me say "all lives matter"... I can pick about 10 people in a matter of seconds who I would pass by prone in the street and not care in the least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

Typically reading just the last page of a new topic, I remember why I have been at this forum for 8 fucking years.

Such love. So many funny.

Quote from: Baruch on September 27, 2016, 07:28:34 AM
That anteater is a nightmare from Antz ... do you think he would be fair, or just genocide Jewish ants?

Ants are unstoppable. And their end won't be by ant eaters. If we end them, safe to say 'the end is nigh'. Literally. And that's David Attenborough chasing the giant ant eater...in 50s. So everybody is safe. For now.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 29, 2016, 04:19:10 AM
Ants are unstoppable. And their end won't be by ant eaters. If we end them, safe to say 'the end is nigh'. Literally. And that's David Attenborough chasing the giant ant eater...in 50s. So everybody is safe. For now.

Did Attenborough or the anteater ... invent jogging?  I thought it was Forest Gump ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2016, 06:35:37 AM
Did Attenborough or the anteater ... invent jogging?  I thought it was Forest Gump ;-)

LOL Apparently there is a man attributed with 'invention' of jogging but he died from a heart attack while jogging at 52.

I don't know which is more sad. That people think a man who died at 52 in our time 'invented' jogging or that the poor man died while doing something people thought he invented for health.

Student arrested after wearing gorilla mask, handing out bananas at Black Lives Matter protest

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/09/29/student-arrested-after-wearing-gorilla-mask-handing-out-bananas-at-black-lives-matter-protest/

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp-content/uploads/sites/42/2016/09/ETSU.jpg&w=1484)

An East Tennessee State University student was arrested Wednesday after going to a Black Lives Matter protest on campus wearing a gorilla mask and handing out bananas.
Tristan Rettke, an 18-year-old freshman, wore overalls and a gorilla mask and, wandering barefoot while holding a burlap sack with a Confederate flag and a marijuana leaf on it, offered bananas to students who were protesting, according to a report by ETSU police. He was arrested and charged with civil rights intimidation.

According to campus police, after being read his rights Rettke told officers that a couple of days earlier he had seen on social media that there would be a Black Lives Matter event in the “free speech” area of Borchuck Plaza on the Johnson City, Tenn., campus. He said he went to a store Tuesday to buy rope to tie to a bunch of bananas. While there he also bought the mask and brought it all to the event on Wednesday.

According to the police report, Rettke said the stunt was an attempt to provoke the protesters. ...

I had never heard of "civil rights intimidation." http://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2010/title-39/chapter-17/part-3/39-17-309/

Good for campus police. What a douche.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2016, 02:41:48 PM
Good for campus police. What a douche.

Meanwhile...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpWiV-zLoM

Quote from: Jack89 on September 30, 2016, 03:20:29 PM
Meanwhile...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpWiV-zLoM

And they should be punished as well.

We really need to drop this idea that supporting BLM means supporting fringe idiots like this. It's getting a bit passe.

That, or start claiming that the idiot above represents all white people, or all people against BLM...

Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2016, 04:32:57 PM
And they should be punished as well.

We really need to drop this idea that supporting BLM means supporting fringe idiots like this. It's getting a bit passe.

That, or start claiming that the idiot above represents all white people, or all people against BLM...

I'm opposed to BLM because it does incite incidents like the blatant violent racism in the video I posted.  They are a racist organization that promotes hatred and violence.  Your analogy would have been closer to the mark if you said the idiot in the gorilla mask represents white supremacists, and not all white people. 

QuoteThey are a racist organization that promotes hatred and violence.

That's why BLM comes out in support of white, latino and other ethnic groups who are victims of police brutality. Because they sure hate dem whities.

That said, I would like to see them come out even more vocally in support of latino victims of crime, who are represented even less and even more negatively than African Americans are.

QuoteYour analogy would have been closer to the mark if you said the idiot in the gorilla mask represents white supremacists, and not all white people.

Only closer to the mark if you have a very prejudiced opinion of BLM, in which case fair play.

Fortunately I am not in favor of White or Black guilt ... I find all people guilty.  Distinguishing one flavor of guilt from another is mere prejudice.

Free speech only works, as long as the people in the Matrix remain in the Matrix.  You are only free to express what the Matrix wants to be expressed.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2016, 04:32:57 PM
And they should be punished as well.

We really need to drop this idea that supporting BLM means supporting fringe idiots like this. It's getting a bit passe.

That, or start claiming that the idiot above represents all white people, or all people against BLM...

Whether the grand-poo-bah of BLM supports it or not, the fact that people are inspired(?) to do things like this because of BLM, it makes BLM a problem.

And I say grand poo bah in partial jest because there is none. Every time someone says "this isn't what [insert movement/set of beliefs here] stands for" it's just one, big no-true-scottsman fallacy. This movement is now a both a multi-headed and a no-headed beast. No one controls it, but it controls a vast amount of people in a vast amount of ways.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 03:13:19 AM
Whether the grand-poo-bah of BLM supports it or not, the fact that people are inspired(?) to do things like this because of BLM, it makes BLM a problem.

Good. There should be conflict. There should be problem. Because there are big problems and without conflict nothing is solved.

Equality is not given. It's taken.

QuoteAnd I say grand poo bah in partial jest because there is none. Every time someone says "this isn't what [insert movement/set of beliefs here] stands for" it's just one, big no-true-scottsman fallacy. This movement is now a both a multi-headed and a no-headed beast. No one controls it, but it controls a vast amount of people in a vast amount of ways

Controlled movement.  :rotflmao: 

Could your highness offer a model for protest groups in a violent racist culture that would turn people into robots with a remote control and act according to the vanilla people's vanilla expectations, so their safe, cotton world wouldn't be threatened?

AT&T CEO passionately defends Black Lives Matter

https://www.cnet.com/news/at-t-ceo-randall-stephenson-defends-black-lives-matter/

There was no mincing of words at an AT&T employee meeting last week focused on bridging racial divide."Our communities are being destroyed by racial tension and we're too polite to talk about it," AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson said last Friday at his company's employee resource group conference. Troubled by recent shootings and riots in Charlotte, North Carolina; Ferguson, Missouri; Baton Rouge and Dallas, Stephenson gave an honest account of his struggles with understanding the US racial divide. "Tolerance is for cowards," he said in his speech, which was posted to YouTube on Saturday. "Being tolerant requires nothing from you but to be quiet and not make waves."
Stephenson pleaded with his employees, "Do not tolerate each other. Work hard. Move into uncomfortable territory and understand each other."

Stephenson, head of one of the largest companies in the nation, brings a high-profile voice to the issue of rising racial tension brought on by the police shooting of black men and the subsequent protests in various cities around the country. The incidents have spurred the formation of the Black Lives Matter movement, which has sought to raise attention regarding systematic racism toward black people.
Stephenson admitted to being confused about the views of his longtime friend, a black doctor and veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who he referred to only by his first name, "Chris." He said that despite being friends for years, they've never once talked about race.

"If two very close friends of different races don't talk openly about this issue, that's tearing our communities apart, how do we expect to find common ground and solutions for what's a really serious, serious problem?" he asked.Stephenson said it wasn't until he witnessed the way Chris spoke to an all-white congregation about the struggles he endures as a black man that his views were able to change.

What drew one of the largest reactions from the audience of hundreds was when Stephenson quoted Chris: "When a parent says, 'I love my son,' you don't say, 'What about your daughter?' When we walk or run for breast cancer funding and research, we don't say, 'What about prostate cancer?' When the president says, 'God bless America,' we don't say, 'Shouldn't God bless all countries?' And when a person struggling with what's been broadcast on our airwaves says, 'black lives matter,' we should not say 'all lives matter' to justify ignoring the real need for change."

Stephenson urged his employees to start communicating. "If this is a dialogue that's going to begin at AT&T, I feel like it probably ought to start with me," he said. On social media, reactions to the speech have been positive, with AT&T employees sharing videos of the speech on their personal Facebook pages. Even T-Mobile CEO and outspoken rival John Legere acknowledged his support of the speech.

Quote from: Jack89 on September 30, 2016, 05:52:23 PM
I'm opposed to BLM because it does incite incidents like the blatant violent racism in the video I posted.  They are a racist organization that promotes hatred and violence.  Your analogy would have been closer to the mark if you said the idiot in the gorilla mask represents white supremacists, and not all white people.

Yeah because while violent people in BLM makes BLM a racist hate group, gorilla mask racists or Christian White Supremacist killing people don't even touch the Christian White you -you are a Catholic, right?- because ya know, 'not all white people'. What bullshit.

And if we apply your general 'logic', your 'opinion' on BLM has nothing to do with you being a White Catholic -I am guessing it is 'not all Catholics!' now- and I should take this as an independent thought on the issue. Bullshit number 2.

Human cvilisation suffers because of people like you. Not angry people giving violent reactions in streets. While they are a result, with your reactions and opinions and the belief you  belong to, you represent the EVER standing cause, the reason. From your world view and general perspective of defining transgenderism as mental illness to your repeated reaction to cop shootings and every thread on conflict with blacks as 'black crime rate, black crime rate...black crime rate, balck racism, hatred', you are a typical bigot.

A bigot Catholic. What a shocker. Or wait, I shouldn't jump on conclusions, may be you are a 'true' Catholic, eh?

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 03:13:19 AM
Whether the grand-poo-bah of BLM supports it or not, the fact that people are inspired(?) to do things like this because of BLM, it makes BLM a problem.

And I say grand poo bah in partial jest because there is none. Every time someone says "this isn't what [insert movement/set of beliefs here] stands for" it's just one, big no-true-scottsman fallacy. This movement is now a both a multi-headed and a no-headed beast. No one controls it, but it controls a vast amount of people in a vast amount of ways.

Peasant uprisings become critical when a leader does emerge who provides a focus i.e. Nat Turner.  This is why Occupy didn't need to call in the snipers that were on the planning board.  Maybe the race war every American has hoped for has finally arrived ... or not.

People want justice, yet justice is human conceptual bullshit like Santa Claus.  Magical thinking.  And contrary to Middle Class values (and to the Left, the Middle Class is a cancer, because they neutralize the class conflict) you aren't just guilty for what you yourself did yesterday.  Guilt operates across space, time and class.  The post-WW II Matrix was necessary to protect the Five Eyes ... otherwise the Soviet Union would have won.

Considering your age, Baruch, you should be aware 10 times over the youngsters here how much changed in the society you live in the past 35-40 years -that would put your age back then to Pickel's roughly. 

There is a big difference between justice as an idealist concept and how reaction and conflict is needed to shape societies for the better and how that rises from social injustice.

Young people in this forum are around mid twenties. This is the first social crisis in their country they are facing. They are not aware -naturally- how a lot of things they take for granted everyday actually reached by conflicts created by groups like BLM and even BLM went rogue or not, this will neither be the last one, nor the most violent. It's going to happen over and over again in their life times.

Speaking of magical thinking and American middle class values neutralising the class conflict which I agree, reducing the social conflict with a historical background older than the country itself that built it is pretty much like neutralising the issue itself as a middle class. I am guessing you are high middle class?

By the way the five eyes is actually a triangle. And it is still intact. 

"Soviet would have won." What would have happened if German was elected as the official language of the US? It lost with how many votes? 2? 1? :lol:

The US would have been wise to support the Kaiser in WW I ... then no WW II necessary.  So yes, history could be radically different  ;-)  The second language in the US in 1914 wasn't Spanish, it was German.  My mother is German-American.  Cheering European armies in WW I, was like cheering the home team, since so many of us were recent immigrants.  But Teddy Roosevelt got the British Empire and the French Empire to kiss and make up.  And the German-Russian alliance broke up, to be picked up by a French-Russian alliance.  If McKinley hadn't been persuaded to put Teddy on the ticket, the Brits and French might have remained enemies ... and anti-German paranoia on Britain might not have kept the British out of the German orbit (as Victoria intended them to be ... English, German, Russian by monarchial marriages).  France and the US were republics ... enemies of the Brits etc.

You don't really expect the 60s to return any time soon, right?  There are periodic social crises ... but they don't necessarily produce the same upset ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE

Young people today don't need to be at Berkeley in the 60s ... they just need Youtube ... then they can be groovy too!

Quote from: Baruch on October 01, 2016, 08:38:01 AM
The US would have been wise to support the Kaiser in WW I ... then no WW II necessary.  So yes, history could be radically different  ;-)  The second language in the US in 1914 wasn't Spanish, it was German.  My mother is German-American.  Cheering European armies in WW I, was like cheering the home team, since so many of us were recent immigrants.  But Teddy Roosevelt got the British Empire and the French Empire to kiss and make up.  And the German-Russian alliance broke up, to be picked up by a French-Russian alliance.  If McKinley hadn't been persuaded to put Teddy on the ticket, the Brits and French might have remained enemies ... and anti-German paranoia on Britain might not have kept the British out of the German orbit (as Victoria intended them to be ... English, German, Russian by monarchial marriages).  France and the US were republics ... enemies of the Brits etc.

Execpt US wasn't developed enough to look for a new market then. They only found the chance during the second one.

Of course it was German that's why it was voted that close. That's what I mean. Just imagine a German speaking US going through the period. :lol: Wouldn't turn out good.

QuoteYou don't really expect the 60s to return any time soon, right?  There are periodic social crises ... but they don't necessarily produce the same upset ...
Young people today don't need to be at Berkeley in the 60s ... they just need Youtube ... then they can be groovy too!

The next 60s wouldn't be something a person from the 60s could relate.

At Berkeley in 60s? They would run away scared shitless screaming 'Anti-American terrorists!  Think about Black Panther threads and white younsgters here screaming about how violent and racist they are against white people... racist commies! And all those radical feminists and sex revolution!

Oh my gawd, we are fucking living the 60s without the '60s', eh?

:rotflmao:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 05:42:32 AM
Good. There should be conflict. There should be problem.

So it's good that black people are stooping to the level of violent and racist white people in the name of equality?

...if you say so...

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 11:06:52 AM
So it's good that black people are stooping to the level of violent and racist white people in the name of equality?

...if you say so...

No, there will always be people in a crowd with violent tendencies. Or even people acting deliberatly in certain ways to harm others. Some protests rallies will always get violent at some point. Or murderous piece of shits will always use every opportunity to kill innocent people for anything.

What is not going to happen, however, is any issue getting solved by PG protesting. Or have some control over people. That's not going to happen. 

If BLM goes rogue and outlawed which is very possible, other groups will emerge in time that will define themselves in contrast with groups like BLM and similar things will happen with them too. Because this has already happened many times over.

America is in struggle, it has reached a point and certain groups are responding to that pushing a bigger social explosion. There is no control with social explosions. They are violent, dangerous, destructive and full of rage. They are everything people are.

They are normal. It means there is a lot of life in American society. If there wasn't any rage and reaction I would worry about that.

So are you saying it's good or not that these mobs of people are violently targeting white people, even if they don't have anything to do with the problem other than having light skin?

Sent from your mom.

Because it kind of sounds like you're saying:

"What' the matter? You're not ok with black people indiscriminately and violently targeting white people even if they weren't racist or did anything bad in the first place?"

Wtf is this "PG protesting" Of course a protest isn't going to "PG", many times it needs to be "R", but once it turns in to snuff porn, it's time to pull the plug.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 11:37:13 AM
So are you saying it's good or not that these mobs of people are violently targeting white people, even if they don't have anything to do with the problem other than having light skin?
Sent from your mom.

No, I am saying it is a natural consequence.   

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 11:50:52 AM
No, I am saying it is a natural consequence.   

So, we shouldn't worry about BLM protesters going out and violently targeting white people for the sole reason that they are white because it's a "natural consequence" of the protest?

This is like nice little kid that was beat up in school and decided to start beating up kids to feel "even". Didn't solve anything, just made more violence.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 11:46:00 AM
Because it kind of sounds like you're saying:

"What' the matter? You're not ok with black people indiscriminately and violently targeting white people even if they weren't racist or did anything bad in the first place?"

Wtf is this "PG protesting" Of course a protest isn't going to "PG", many times it needs to be "R", but once it turns in to snuff porn, it's time to pull the plug.

No peaceful protest ever gotten any results in the US. Occupy Wall Street was a peaceful protest, government crushed it, nothing changed and people died.

Snuff porn? That's not just overly dramatic, it is also silly. Pull the plug? Yeah...you wait for that to happen. Don't forget to pray too.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 01, 2016, 11:58:35 AM
This is like nice little kid that was beat up in school and decided to start beating up kids to feel "even". Didn't solve anything, just made more violence.

No, it is not. But it is a good anology for how you percieve it.

Alright, shoe.

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 11:59:30 AM
No peaceful protest ever gotten any results in the US. Occupy Wall Street was a peaceful protest, government crushed it, nothing changed and people died.

It's remarkable the LGBTQ community managed to go from gay sex being illegal and a mental illness to national gay marriage equality in less than thirty years. Somehow we did it with a minimum of property destruction, assaults and shootings.

(https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/image/53b0cacd6bb3f70642879d26-960-720/this-years-nyc-gay-pride-parade-commemorated-the-45th-anniversary-of-the-stonewall-inn-riots-which-are-credited-with-launching-the-modern-gay-rights-movement-in-1969.jpg)

Yeah. It's almost like... you can actually find a way to achieve a goal and communicate a message peacefully. Weird.

Never would have thought that...

*blatant sarcasm*

Where to start...

A. The LGBT+ movement is an exception that proves the rule. For every one LGBT+ movement that ended "peacefully", there are 2000 movements that required or escalated into violence... for every Ghandi, there are 500 Queveras, Toussaint L'Ouvertures & Malcom Xs. By all means it is a movement that should be looked to for inspiration, as should Ghandi's (though his was far from peaceful and VERY inconvenient to average people) or... well, really very few movements because, as drunkenshoe said, the very nature of revolution is inherently conflictive.

B. You are comparing a community that is both fluid (in that any family can have a gay relative) but also (relatively) more affluent and educated that minorities to a community that faces on a whole far worse educational standards and economic conditions and expecting them to behave the same. Additionally the support for the LGBT movement has been huge in the media thanks to how open Hollywood has been to the community, whereas African Americans still are highly underrepresented and often given stereotypical roles. I think this is a very short-sighted and naive view at best, and that is only if it is truly said in ignorance and not with bias. And to be fair to you GSO, that's not necessarily how I interpreted you bringing it up, I only saw your post as saying they are a good example of how to do it as opposed to how BLM "should" be doing it.

There are a few other factors with that... you can hide your sexuality, you cant hide your race, so it is something you have to openly face 24/7 from the moment you meet someone. Likewise this makes the lines quite clear; there is us and there is them. You don't have to worry about your son or daughter being randomly born black... it just will not happen. There were more, but I just got off a 10 hour shift and am brain-farting atm.

Tl;dr - Yes, the LGBT community is a good example, but there are way more factors that went into it than just, "They are peaceful, why can't everyone else just be like them!". The sarcasm falls flat when the position is actually thought about more deeply than just the surface.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 11:59:30 AMNo peaceful protest ever gotten any results in the US.

(https://i.imgflip.com/kvqch.jpg)

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 01, 2016, 07:15:07 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/kvqch.jpg)

*cringe* You cant have your cake and eat it too (what you will do with it if you cant eat it, I dunno... )...

A. This implies that the rioting has anything to do with BLM, which... if we roll with that assumption... means that the rioting that took place in the Civil Rights Movement had anything to do with it and thus MLK. Or as posted earlier, that the rioting over Vancouver losing the Stanley Cup is therefor a negative upon the Canucks organization.

B. Have you read MLK's "Letter From A Birmingham Jail"? In it he specifically says the objective of protesters going to places like Birmingham and the other deeply-racist towns in the South is to provoke a response and make the issue something that can no longer be ignored. He is everything that I have heard people here complain about; divisive, combative and... above all else... inconvenient.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/?utm_term=.44dffc95fe7f (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/?utm_term=.44dffc95fe7f)


https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html (https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html)

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 01, 2016, 07:15:07 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/kvqch.jpg)

His dream remains unrealized.

Also, MLK on some of yall...

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."


Trust me... MLK is not the poster boy yall want to gather behind :P.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 01, 2016, 03:26:02 PM
It's remarkable the LGBTQ community managed to go from gay sex being illegal and a mental illness to national gay marriage equality in less than thirty years. Somehow we did it with a minimum of property destruction, assaults and shootings.

We can think many reasons.

-First of all the most of the LGBTQ community is white. So the groups have 'advanced' far more quickly because of the very issue we talk about here and got a wider support because of this reason.

-Gay people in general also had a chance to survive by integrating to heteronormative system. You can hide your homosexuality, you can't hide your skin colour.

-Also related to this, gay people do/did not get shot on sight because they were looking suspicious and also obviously gay and so fit a bill of a traditionally created villian. Hate crimes commited against gay people are mostly commited by people they know or acquinted. Most people are NOT programmed to think gay people are genetically prone to commit crimes. Gay culture is not seen as something equal to a crime culture. (There are people who 'think', they are pedophiles or prone commit other crimes just because of their orientation  -prostitution, drug selling, prone to rape children...etc and many other bullshit- but they are mostly a made up, promoted agendas against them. And through all the history they are pushed to live in such horrible conditions, because they are not/were not 'legitimate' members of the society. So gay marriage was about letimising their existence in the first place.

-In Western countries, the legalisation of gay marriage issue is some sort of a bar. Wiki- "As of June 2016, thirteen European countries legally recognize and perform same-sex marriage, namely Belgium, Denmark, [nb 1] Finland (effective from 2017), France, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, [nb 2] Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom."

United States of America has/had to catch up with these Western norms or it loses legitimacy as a first world western country and 'the land of freedom'. Now, I know that most of you have this perception of your own culture and hold the idea that it is not much affected from other cultures esp. in domestic issues, it is a delusion -it is bullshit and bad for you- and as much as America is its own village, there are things it can't afford to leave alone to itself and needs to help climb the wall.

Culturally and socially there is a constant comparison made between American society and European societies by the both parts. European society hold this cultural bar for American culture and there is a need of keeping the unity and a consistent sync more or less. While the whole EU is about to embrace gay marriage, America can't just sit down and watch it.

And this is how gay marriage was supported from many channels, most importantly politically. Besides the general hope, people were actually surprised when it passed and that was by one vote.

So it has become internationally and domestically beneficial and profitable to the American society legalise gay marriage in the US. It wasn't done because American society loooves LGBTQ people. LGBTQ community jumped a class, they are now equal and that boosts everything about them from their daily life to general relations and productivity in the society, it is now hard to marginalise them and push them out of the common daily life and jobs. Their identity is now 'legitimized'. And as the generation goes it will be harder. So it was politically supported in a suitable time, without any conflict and advanced very swiftly.

But in the end, as a motion, it took to legalise a private matter between two individuals to legitimise the identity of LGBTQ people, transform them into 'normal, nuclear families with children', 'people who holds normal jobs and pay taxes.' A group of people getting married to each other, infact in real life, is not something that directly affects anyone's lives against the issue. The major issue with LGBT community the white religious class has that they would be equal to them. The first class. 

This is where the rubber meets the road. It's not about what is written in the Bible or who believes in what. That's just fucking verse and propaganda. Nobody believes in anything, but themselves. It's about how a community define themselves, where they see themselves in a given culture. It's the cultural hierarchy.

And what happened as a result? There is a rise in the hate crimes commited against LGBTQ people. And the more they get into life, it is going to get worse.
(Orlando attack is not a common attack to LGBTQ people and the legalising gay marriage has a lot to do with it. Meanwhile Europe is dealing with violent attacks on LGBTQ parades. Like the one in Paris in 2013. And if this happens long enough there will be a response.)

-On the other hand, Racism against black people is NOT something that can be solved by the channel of a resolution of a private matter between individuals. Its historical, systematic and institutional background is different than what LGBTQ community and individuals faced. I am not saying their oppression doesn't fall in those categories. I'm saying it is different.

While LGBTQ people need to get out from their closet and find each other; their community and learn from each other a specific culture and background, being black is not like that.

Black people do not get out and find other black people and black community to face the oppression against them. It is a race; there is no where to hide. They cannot get married opposite sex and hide. They get born in that community and grow up in that culture, they inherit everything negative and positive about it from childhood; the hatred, the rage, the historical sense of their 'place' in the soicety.

And different than legalising gay marriage, black people having an equal standing with white people directly affects the life of everyone. First of all when this happens, white people will drop class. They are not even aware now, but they will get aware then and may be then they will get how really actually everything is first about them, but not because they are more in numbers, but because they are white. Most of them is going to hate that. Trust me, even the people who pride themselves on supporting equality passionately will have an identity crisis, this is happening now in America as we speak. It has been going on for some time.

-On feeling rage and hatred. While a black president who -besides, the usual bullshit politics as every other enforced- put at least some dignity back in the chair after that half witted, carbon waste, war criminal threw America in to garbage and they are watching cops, vigilantes shooting their people for nothing getting away with it. White supremacist commiting mass shootings cannot even be defined as 'domestic terrorism'. An openly racist presidential candidate -he has a chance to win, he is presidential candidate, just think that alone- talking out of his ass, vomiting posion around and applauded by the half of the country.

The most important thing is nobody talks openly about racism. Because 'nobody is racist in America'. They are just some problems. Whenever that is up, only the South is racist. 'Oh them live in the south, you know'. Translation: 'There are places black people can't even go, we call them racists.'

Whenever anything done against black people up, be it the cop shootings or something else, it is all about black crime rate and self defense. Any kind of protest, be it peaceful or violent gets the same backlash. While everyone blames these people for 'taking revenge', 'racial supremacy' getting pissed of by a man running aroud screaming 'beat up every white people', when it is a about a peaceful, meaningful protest, it is all about how it shouldn't have been done. The blacklash against a footballer and a bunch of violent people rioting in the street around is THE SAME.

The culture is not just inherently, systematically, institutionally racist against black people, it is VICIOUS. And that's what they are giving back in a fertile political climate within the limits of protest group dynamics. Infact BLM is a typical protest group from head to toe. But in white eyes, they are not even allowed to harbour rage or hatred. But of course, they need to turn their cheek and demonstrate a passifist protest so white pople should buy it and clap them. They should give a good show. And by doing that they should live with their victimhood with their black pride and be graceful about it too. Stop disturbing the vanilla culture with their reality, right?

You know what is so ironic about most of the opinions on the issue in limits of this forum?

Bunch of white people are getting so emotionally jacked up and pissed off watching the BLM videos, calling BLM a 'black supremacist group full of hatred' just by LOOKING at media material they draw and reflect this HATE and ANGER, sitting in a chair infront of a computer, because it is 'unfair and unjust', but their only 'criticism' is that 'they are HATEFUL and ANGRY; they are calling me racist'. :lol:

Now, imagine what would have happened if these people had been born black into the American society. I'd like to say 'pot meet kettle', but it is not accurate. It's more like 'Pot stop looking down at your nose and get down from your high horse or you are going to fall down on your face'.

Why BLM has become violent? Why black protest groups and blacks are violent?

They are not. They are not extra violent than white people. America is going through a struggle and these are the natural consequences of it. Their violence is now seen as something 'extra' because White violence is the law of the human culture and far more vicious, systematic and have many forms. White culture, power and wealth is based on systematic violence against nonwhite people and their cultures. White culture is responsible from the major crimes against humanity, genocides and attrocities, wars and invasions, mass destruction. They are the CITY HALL. That's how they have become the city hall.

And when given a little of white medicine, suddenly everybody gets into a psychotic break down and start talking to themselves about pigments and white sunburns and giving away bananas in gorilla costume and scream blatant absurd lies as 'All lives matter!' Nice jerking off. As long as you know it for what it is.

Well, no, all lives do not matter. And the lives that do not matter will try to do anything to make theirs matter. It's human reality. That's how they arrived to this point and how they will got further.

If BLM is outlawed and crushed down there will be others. This is not a project with a deadline. They will come and go and the culture will change pushed and pulled, beaten up between these explosions. In some eras they will calm down disappear, in some they will rise and explode. Because this is what that has always happened and always will be.

But there are things I can guranatee you that will never happen.

Nobody is going to be able
-to control people,
-tell them what they should think and feel; who to hate or not
-check protest groups and dictate them on how to react
-'pull the plug' on some reactive movement
-redefine and correct human reality or 'fix the errors' in it.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 01, 2016, 07:15:07 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/kvqch.jpg)

I'd remind you the fact that he was murdered assasinated by a white supremacist as a result of his nonviolent achievements. A veteran who served in WII, saving the world.

Yet American culture has not even come to the terms with this crime against humanity, but not just one man's life, as a part of systematic racism against black people. You cannot see-hear any words of 'white supremacism' uttered in the matter ofdeath of Martin Luther Kıng. Because that wouldn't do. That would be confirming a fact against the poor white people under ever threat of everyone else.

I just know the cliché @Nonsensei threw as 'sigh, his dreams unrealised' very well. Something almost absurd in a picture today not that hasn't changed, let alone 50 years ago, gone for the worst. I probbaly have heard that line uttered by a white character in Hollywood movies how many times now? Luther's dreams are secretly coded dreams, only white people can get it. :lol:


Ye gawds, I think I get a better grasp of what black people call 'white bullshit' every day. Hang in there America.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 11:50:52 AM
No, I am saying it is a natural consequence.

That is why I have a problem with naturalism ... not that I can do anything about it ;-(

On MLK ... his reputation was whitewashed ... so that White folks could accept a sanitized version of his message.  In that way, his real threat, against the Vietnam War and against Capitalism (he was a Christian socialist) could be neutralized ... in addition to him being directly neutralized.  Most White folk had a hard time with the Civil Rights stuff, but they would never have tolerated a pacifist and socialist undermining Johnson's business deals.  Today MLK is like a Christian saint ... we forget that they never bathed (lived with the destitute), and that they weren't made of pretty stained glass.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 01, 2016, 06:10:58 AM
Yeah because while violent people in BLM makes BLM a racist hate group, gorilla mask racists or Christian White Supremacist killing people don't even touch the Christian White you -you are a Catholic, right?- because ya know, 'not all white people'. What bullshit.

And if we apply your general 'logic', your 'opinion' on BLM has nothing to do with you being a White Catholic -I am guessing it is 'not all Catholics!' now- and I should take this as an independent thought on the issue. Bullshit number 2.

Human cvilisation suffers because of people like you. Not angry people giving violent reactions in streets. While they are a result, with your reactions and opinions and the belief you  belong to, you represent the EVER standing cause, the reason. From your world view and general perspective of defining transgenderism as mental illness to your repeated reaction to cop shootings and every thread on conflict with blacks as 'black crime rate, black crime rate...black crime rate, balck racism, hatred', you are a typical bigot.

A bigot Catholic. What a shocker. Or wait, I shouldn't jump on conclusions, may be you are a 'true' Catholic, eh?

You're really focused on my religion for some reason.  You should pop into my church and look around before you make assumptions, as you're wont to do.  White, Hispanic, black, Asian, you name 'em, we got 'em.  I'm visiting my father in Oregon and the Priest at the Catholic Church in his town is from India.  The only problem I have with him is that he has a thick accent and I sometimes have difficulty understanding his homily.
Call me names if it makes you feel better, but I don't hate anyone to include blacks, transgender people, or whoever, even if I disagree with their views.  I think certain movements, ideologies, etc. are counterproductive and dangerous, and I have no problem expressing my opinion on them.  BLM has nothing but misguided sentiment and a few isolated incidents of police brutality and wrongful killings.  And now the default view of BLM to any killing of a black man by a cop, white or otherwise, is assumed to be a racist incident and riots ensue.  BLM promotes and feeds off of division just like all movements and ideologies based on identity politics and victim mentality. 

I didn't 'focus' your religion first and thought you are a bigot because of that. I am reading your posts and think that you are a bigot because of your opinions and I am aware there is a connection to your religion that doesn't have to be scriptural, because you are consistent. The comfort and the 'side' your belief, your Catholicism provides you is exactly the same delusion with your 'opinions' on the issue. It doesn't matter how diverse your group is.

Jack, you are not a part of my life. Writing you a paragraph on how I see your world view does not make me feel anything in particular. Exactly like you, I am expressing my opinion. You are not offering an original idea. Your opinions are the ready mainstream convictions of the white community -religious or secular- that has been put out there since the beginning and you are basically repeating the same things over and over again. They are not even opinions any more but something learned; an automatic response. The same response that was given to black people of King's time, and what was given now to BLM doesn't matter how different they are. Don't let the myopic look and the heroship built after his death decieve you. Response is the same.

Your country is in struggle, it is going through a difficult era, a process of change. Although when asked, everyone is 'aware', but you -and almost all the white people like you- want change to happen without any struggle, discomfort, disturbance, disorder, without touching your conformist lives, not even without making you despondent about it watching a media piece. Because everything is about you. Call it the culture, the human nature...etc...everything occurs in between, what you see is 'what is about you or not'. And you are expressing that struggle as a danger to the 'society', because it is 'against' you and as far as you can see, you are that 'society'. Guess what, you are not.

You people want change without struggle. What's more, you want the struggle to fit your expectations. You want to fix reality. This is not just very naively delusional, it is also a fundemantally 'religous' frame of mind and perspective. It describes a firm 'belief' in the system and defines the city hall and the culture it created as if it is the omnipotent, all powerful god's work and paints everything against it as 'wrong' when it disturbs the 'balance' that you are used to. A balance where you are the first class, because of your skin colour. Frankly, it's dumb. It's as dumb as trying to cure a child by praying, it is dumb as believing that gay people cause hurricanes. Doesn't matter if you are a believer or an atheist at this point. By 'religious' I don't mean organised religions obviously.

Now, I am sure that you don't think an ill child could be cured by praying or gay people cause hurricanes, but please do not expect me to treat you different than any other believer, while I see the most athiests drowning in religious thinking when it comes this issue and similar ones. 

Fixing reality is what politics is all about.  And of course it is delusional and chaotic.  Going thru changes?  Read Heraclitus from Ephesus, just over the hill from you, sheesh!

BLM are cargo culting MLK's civil rights movement. The plain fact is that unless you could take insult, injury and bullying without being provoked yourself, you were not allowed to march with the King. MLK's civil rights movement, and Ghandi's protest movement before him, were very disciplined. No action by either of these moments would have provoked the violent response they did if they were carried out by whites. It was the contrast between black people (and Indians) acting like civilized people and suffering the onslaught of white people acting like brutes, completely reversing the prevailing attitudes at the time, that made the protests so effective.

That's the element you lose when you shout stuff like "beat up every white person!" and the like. When you do this, you're just a brute, even if you never raise your fists, and the protest just turns into brute-on-brute action that, while entertaining, is void of any moral impact. Why should I take seriously any person who advocates an assault on my person, even in jest, or as part of a protest, just because of my race? Why should I feel morally outraged that people spoiling for a fight get it?

Yes, both the original civil rights movement and the BLM movement wish to provoke violent response, but the way they provoked that response makes all the difference in the world how they will be regarded. The original civil rights marchers provoked violent response by being civil people insisting on being treated civilly; the Milwaukee protesters were spoiling for a fight. One garners much more sympathy than the other, and I'll leave it for an exercise for the reader to figure out which.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on October 05, 2016, 11:08:06 AM
BLM are cargo culting MLK's civil rights movement. The plain fact is that unless you could take insult, injury and bullying without being provoked yourself, you were not allowed to march with the King. MLK's civil rights movement, and Ghandi's protest movement before him, were very disciplined. No action by either of these moments would have provoked the violent response they did if they were carried out by whites. It was the contrast between black people (and Indians) acting like civilized people and suffering the onslaught of white people acting like brutes, completely reversing the prevailing attitudes at the time, that made the protests so effective.

You cannot define the identity of black people as a minority over all with the same terms what was in King's time. The contrast between then and now is something bigger than how the dynamic protest worked.

They are NOT protesting against segregation anymore. Seperate fountains, seperate schools, seperate bathrooms...seperate sport leagues etc...are not a problem anymore. When you are fighting against making your existence at some place legitimate from scratch, the dynamics of protest is different.

Now cops are shooting black people or a vigilante gets away with shooting and killing a black person, because he is likely to be some sort of a villian because of his race. And the country had a black president for two terms. That provokes people more. Obama's existence is in a way what boosts more provocative, violent reactions. The political climate is very definitive on the protests.

QuoteThat's the element you lose when you shout stuff like "beat up every white person!" and the like. When you do this, you're just a brute, even if you never raise your fists, and the protest just turns into brute-on-brute action that, while entertaining, is void of any moral impact. Why should I take seriously any person who advocates an assault on my person, even in jest, or as part of a protest, just because of my race? Why should I feel morally outraged that people spoiling for a fight get it?

As most of the white people don't/didn't regard any black activist groups against racism in any way to begin with before certain individuals in BLM got violent, I don't really think this is a good way of looking at it. It's just being personally offended by it.

QuoteYes, both the original civil rights movement and the BLM movement wish to provoke violent response, but the way they provoked that response makes all the difference in the world how they will be regarded. The original civil rights marchers provoked violent response by being civil people insisting on being treated civilly; the Milwaukee protesters were spoiling for a fight. One garners much more sympathy than the other, and I'll leave it for an exercise for the reader to figure out which.

It seems like every movement existed in some time 'before' has some legitimacy after a new one occurs, after the time has changed. Be it black groups or feminists. Not when people facing their protests. The groups existed in 60s are legitimate for people who were born much later, but 'radical' for the ones who lived them through AND for people in 60s the movements before were the legitimate, real protests.

My guess is that none of those groups are after any kind of sympathy, but somehow the white community still thinks that they need to bow to them; convince them for their causes and reasons. I am not saying this is wrong or correct or this or that. It looks like that's the way it is.

Yes, 1968 is so over!  We have Seri to tell us what to do now ;-)

Fact is, the Civil Rights movement was decapitated in 1968 ... and we all pretended it was a done deal ... that is why this lumpen bigotry has made a come-back.  It isn't over until it is over.

#NotAll blacks are advocating violence, #NotAll whites advocate discrimination against blacks, #NotAll of us want to keep circling drain talking about how #NotAll people are this that or the other.

People argue back and forth about non-sequiturs, and then wonder why I don't take the social justice debate seriously.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 05, 2016, 01:27:25 PM
#NotAll blacks are advocating violence, #NotAll whites advocate discrimination against blacks, #NotAll of us want to keep circling drain talking about how #NotAll people are this that or the other.

People argue back and forth about non-sequiturs, and then wonder why I don't take the social justice debate seriously.

And then like your posts about it apparently. :lol:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 05, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
And then like your posts about it apprently. :lol:

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they realize who my posts are directed at. :lol:

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 05, 2016, 04:57:57 PM
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they realize who my posts are directed at. :lol:

( liked for the lawlz)

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 05, 2016, 04:57:57 PM
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they realize who my posts are directed at. :lol:

Yeah, I don't think that's in your control. (Hits 'post', goes back and hits 'like'.)

Quote from: widdershins on September 23, 2016, 01:25:01 PM
Any time someone makes a blanket statement about an entire group that statement is wrong.  There is no single reason why someone may counter "Black lives matter" with "Blue lives matter" or "All lives matter".  And certainly not all people who say, "All lives matter" really mean "White lives matter".

I, like Shiranu, also thought that "Black Lives Matter" was or should have been a very clear message, but apparently that is not the case at all. At this point, I don't think it's fair to call people racists or trolls for saying All Lives Matter. Here is an incomplete list of just some black celebs who support "All Lives Matter": Lebron James, Floyd Mayweather, Laila Ali, Fantasia Burrino, Fetty Wap, Nia Long, Raven Symone, Columbus Short, Dexter Darden, Christina Millian, RZA, The Game, Apryl Jones, Tery McMillan, Janet Jackson, and Venus Williams.

I still think that all lives matter but it also matters who is on the hard end of the bad decisions by the police.  And when one group is disproportionately the victims, it is time to question why. 

I don't like that.  Police are getting a bit out of hand with everyone these days.  I'm afraid of them, and I'm a senior white guy.  This is all wrong.  A gun should be the last resort, not the first.  Strangeholds are wrong, casual tasers are wrong.  Shooting someone where guns are legal to carry even openly are wrong.  Shooting someone just because they THINK someone might have a gun somewhere is wrong. 

It has to stop. 

And there is only one way it will stop.  Policemen/women who shoot first and ask questions later have to be convicted of manslaughter.  It just isn't going to stop until there are real penalties for thinking they have a license to kill... The habit of "findig" a gun conveniently on the scene, has to stop.  Having body cameras inconveniently "fail" has to stop.

We, as a society, are requiring the police to wear them for a reason!  Evasion of reality is not acceptable.  Will we be forced to arrange some some of un-turn-offable 360 degree cameras on drones that follow them around?  We could do that.  We shouldn't have to.

But we can, and if forced to, we will.  This nonsense has GOT to stop.

FAA controls all drones now ... so they are watching you, you are not watching them.