I found this clip and decided to share.
https://youtu.be/gh5XrZJkJxc
Fantastic video.. Thanks for sharing it..
Interesting. Nice one! :-)
Very nice find! Thanks for posting.
Man, it's refreshing to see an intelligent and influential atheist who hasn't given in to fear and hate. Agreed with him 100% on "we have to stop being cowards"...
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 28, 2016, 03:56:41 AM
I found this clip and decided to share.
https://youtu.be/gh5XrZJkJxc
Gonna share this on the facebook page. Very good video
What a load of crap!
Quote from: first few minutesMy family is from pakistan
Every one in my community is a devout muslim.
...and it is not unlikely that someone in my community would kill me.
... the other side considers me muslim and wants to get me out of the country and treat me badly...
and I hear trump giving speeches ...
This is a legal immigrant family and the son, who is a born in america citizen who would be under no threat from Trumps immigration from muslim country's look/see, claiming to have 'heard Trump giving speeches'.
Where the F is the call from Jillette about the threat of Islamic violence against this kid who is terrified of his usa based muslim community! Oh wait, Jillettes point has nothing to do with atheism, religion, freedom in the usa, it is only about Trump.
Quote from: rough transcriptYes Islam is wrong [as an atheist] yes xianity is wrong, yes, judism is wrong ... but there's refugees that are suffering in a way that history will not be kind to us for ignoring that...
we must love them, we must embrace them, we must help them...
Even if they believe things we know are wrong...
No We Don't have to love them or embrace them. And I have no problem air dropping food to refugee camps set up outside of syria. Preferably someplace in Turkey so its easy to ship their asses back home when things settle down.
Quote from: rough transcriptHow do I as an atheist say to muslims, your religion is wrong, your terrorists are crazy, this is dangerous get over it and then say I love you you're welcome.
We have to do gods work because god's not gonna and that love and compassion is not gonna come from allah...
Is it dangerous to embrace muslims because some of them may be terrorists? Yeah...Do we have to protect ourselves ? Yeah we do...
And I dont have any of the answers...
And That is the whole of the argument. I don't have any answers but I don't like trump so I will appeal to emotion and invoke god to make my point.
None of you are stepping back with a good healthy WTF?
How about this Penn?
say to muslims, your religion is wrong, your terrorists are crazy, this is dangerous. End of discussion. You are not welcome here, in this country where freedom FROM religion is supposed to have equal ground with freedom of religion. Islam is incompatible with the foundation of this country and until Islam undergoes its own reformation, its ideas are anathema to the general welfare of the usa.
Holy shit, I pooped a little there in the beginning.
@chill98 (http://www.scarymommy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/injured-child.jpg)
How can you look at this kid and think, "Fuck you, terrorist!"? It's not a load of crap, it's a plea for compassion to help a people who are suffering. Yes, SOME of them might kill a man for leaving Islam. This man's parents would disown him. Would it be better if they were Jehovah's Witnesses? They would do the same thing then. Yes, there are SOME bad people there, which he freely admitted. But a big "Fuck you!" to suffering children because SOME of the people who would come over with them MIGHT be hard line Muslims who would murder someone for leaving Islam, or because SOME of them might be terrorists?
I'm not saying it wouldn't be tough to integrate them. There have been problems in other countries. Many of the men have a serious problem with seeing strong, independent women walking through their neighborhoods in shorts and a tank top. These men are used to having absolute control over their women. But really, it wasn't so much different in our culture just half a century ago. There WILL be problems. That's why we have laws and police and courts. That's why we don't group them altogether in one place where they are isolated from our culture and able to foster their old beliefs that murder is okay if someone pisses you off.
What you are advocating is letting an entire populace suffer, including innocent children, because the way many of the adults think scares you. It scares me to, to be honest. I would definitely take extra precautions if they moved into my neighborhood until I got to know what kind of people they were. But those precautions would not include letting their children suffer and die to protect my own from what MIGHT happen.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 10:51:29 AM
How can you look at this kid and think, "Fuck you, terrorist!"? It's not a load of crap, it's a plea for compassion to help a people who are suffering.
Appeal to emotion (again). In this case, its not going to work on me. It is a civil war going on there and if the same was going on here (even less of an uprising) our government would react the same way. One only needs to look at Occupy Wall street (for example). It did not take long before the powers that be stepped in to defend the status quo, with escalating violence towards the protesters.
I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc. I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration. Two separate issues. The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made. Did they stay because they were too poor? Don't know. Did they stay to support the uprising? Don't know. Did they stay to protect wealth (however limited it was)? Dont know. Is daddy a Isis supporter? Don't know. Is the family Syrian government supporters? Dont know.
And because I DONT KNOW, I am not willing to throw open our borders and welcome them unconditionally.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 10:51:29 AM
But really, it wasn't so much different in our culture just half a century ago. There WILL be problems. That's why we have laws and police and courts.
The only stop gap measure we have is the border. It is the LAST place we can stop them from contaminating our system with their problems. We have enough of our own right now without importing more. I said UNTIL Islam goes through its REFORMATION. Islamic values are not our values:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv3a80RGiw
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 10:51:29 AMWhat you are advocating is letting an entire populace suffer, including innocent children, because the way many of the adults think scares you. It scares me to, to be honest. I would definitely take extra precautions if they moved into my neighborhood until I got to know what kind of people they were. But those precautions would not include letting their children suffer and die to protect my own from what MIGHT happen.
There are 7 billion people on this planet, and more than 5 billion of them are not muslims. I am ok with expending our limited resources on those 5+ billion rather than wasting time, money and citizenship on a value system that is contrary to what I believe is right.
I am rather on the fence on this issue. I can see that both sides have good points to consider. On one hand, compassion for those who are suffering seems so natural and altruistic. However, on the other hand, it can be very dangerous letting people into our country unchecked. If we let them in, there is a good chance they will choose to congregate together the way that other minority groups have in the past. At that point, policing them will be very difficult.
Just look at the polygamist Mormon compounds. We know that the things they do are against the law. People who were lucky enough to somehow escape their compounds have been on live television to tell how they rape little girls, force them to marry older men, and threaten them with Hell fire if they even think of trying to leave. They have their own police who enforce their backwards ways of life, and we do nothing to stop them. When I think of what a compound of people who are Muslims could do, considering their religion commands that they resort to whatever means necessary to spread their religion. Their religion thrives on bloodshed, and that will likely never change. This makes me a little reluctant to agree that letting a large number of refugees who actively practice that religion is a good idea.
There are a multitude of sad situations in the world. I wish we could fix them all. But we can't. The more we try, sometimes, it seems, the more problems we create.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
Appeal to emotion (again). In this case, its not going to work on me. It is a civil war going on there and if the same was going on here (even less of an uprising) our government would react the same way. One only needs to look at Occupy Wall street (for example). It did not take long before the powers that be stepped in to defend the status quo, with escalating violence towards the protesters.
It's not entirely an appeal to emotion. The picture shows real harm being done to real children who could be helped. Yes, it's an emotional picture, but it's also an evidentiary picture and it is a picture of obviously "not a terrorist".
So yeah, there was an appeal to emotion there, but it was not the logical fallacy you appear to be claiming. This picture clearly shows an injured not terrorist in need of help, which by itself soundly refutes your irrational "end of discussion, you are not welcome here" bullshit. YOU don't welcome them. I do. So "you are not welcome" is not correct. They are very welcome, just not by you. At any rate the blanked "you are not welcome" is bullshit, to say the least.
I really have no idea how my first post in this thread is an appeal to emotion "again", though.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc. I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration. Two separate issues. The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made. Did they stay because they were too poor? Don't know. Did they stay to support the uprising? Don't know. Did they stay to protect wealth (however limited it was)? Dont know. Is daddy a Isis supporter? Don't know. Is the family Syrian government supporters? Dont know.
Don't know apparently means "presumed guilty until proven innocent and then still fuck off"?
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
And because I DONT KNOW, I am not willing to throw open our borders and welcome them unconditionally.
If you want to talk logical fallacies how about that straw man right there? When did I ever say "throw open our borders" or that we should welcome them "unconditionally"? In fact, who the hell has EVER suggested we "throw open our borders" or welcome ANYONE "unconditionally"?
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
The only stop gap measure we have is the border. It is the LAST place we can stop them from contaminating our system with their problems. We have enough of our own right now without importing more. I said UNTIL Islam goes through its REFORMATION. Islamic values are not our values:
"WE" have no "values". There is no "we" when it comes to values in America. And, in fact, for MILLIONS of Americans Islamic values ARE their values, about 1% of the population. You act as if "your" values have exclusivity for what "American" values are. The reality is there are a lot of different "values" in America, Islam included.
Hard line Islam thrives on the very segregation you are demanding, actually.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
There are 7 billion people on this planet, and more than 5 billion of them are not muslims. I am ok with expending our limited resources on those 5+ billion rather than wasting time, money and citizenship on a value system that is contrary to what I believe is right.
Most of the world believes things that are contrary to what you believe is right. And to single out Islam as a single, well defined thing which is ALWAYS opposed to your beliefs is just plain ignorance. You are lumping all Muslims together into a single group which believes a single "bad" thing. There are Muslim women's rights activists. There are Muslims speaking out against terrorism. There are Muslims whose values are very much in line with your own working to change the Muslim values which are not. And most of them are in Western countries, where they enjoy the freedom to speak out with a greatly reduced fear of retaliation.
Don't get me wrong. Islam is shit. It is a bad fucking religion with some bad fucking ideas, generally speaking. But that's the key. It is bad "generally speaking". Not 100% of the time. Many Muslims, especially those who have been Westernized, are actually more decent as human beings than some of the rabid asshole Christians who come here. What is the ONE THING every Muslim in the world has in common? They are all human beings, young and old, male and female, every single one of them. Yes, it's an appeal to emotion, but when you turn your back on a "Muslim" you are turning your back on a "human being" whose ideas may OR MAY NOT be at odds with yours. You are saying it's best not to take the chance and help them because you MIGHT disagree with them fundamentally. I am saying that is a bullshit way to live your life, turning your back on a human being because you MIGHT not like how they think. If you look at that picture and see, not an injured child in need of help, but instead only imagine his turban wearing father shooting his AK-47 in the air while screaming "Allah Akbar!" because that MIGHT be true then, really, we have nothing to talk about. And frankly, if that's how you think then you have more in common with hard-line Muslims than you think. Both of you choose to see people who disagree with you as expendable sub-humans whose lives aren't worth considering or protecting.
If you want to help a Muslim kid ... there are plenty here already. African-American Muslims, born here. Help one of them. Why is helping a foreigner superior to helping an American?
On the OP ... Gillette is a politician who performs magic tricks ;-) Most dangerous kind! I don't mind his atheism ... I do mind his ideology.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PM
So yeah, there was an appeal to emotion there, but it was not the logical fallacy you appear to be claiming. This picture clearly shows an injured not terrorist in need of help, which by itself soundly refutes your irrational "end of discussion, you are not welcome here" bullshit. YOU don't welcome them.
It is absolutely an appeal to emotion on all fronts, starting with Penn Jillette. The kid was getting help, hence the picture of him sitting in an ambulance. His parents are responsible for his condition not me, not the USA. I don't know why they decided to stay in a war zone. Assad is not stopping them from moving to another city.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PM
I really have no idea how my first post in this thread is an appeal to emotion "again", though.
Don't know apparently means "presumed guilty until proven innocent and then still fuck off"?
If you want to talk logical fallacies how about that straw man right there?
The strawman is your creation. The border and immigration is a separate issue from once you are on the ground in the usa as a legal immigrant/refugee and innocent until proven guilty. Two separate issues.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PM
"WE" have no "values". There is no "we" when it comes to values in America. And, in fact, for MILLIONS of Americans Islamic values ARE their values, about 1% of the population. You act as if "your" values have exclusivity for what "American" values are. The reality is there are a lot of different "values" in America, Islam included.
Here we have a great example of handwaving and strawmanning extraordinaire. We don't need Islamic values in the usa and islamic values run contrary to the foundation values of this country, you know, that pesky document, the Bill of rights. That pesky little document actually REJECTS basic islamic values wholeheartedly. Islamic values are NOT our values.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PMHard line Islam thrives on the very segregation you are demanding, actually.
Yes, it thrives on segregation AND subjugation which is another damn good reason to shut them out of this country. Again, more examples of why muslim application for immigration should be heavily scrutinized. Conditional even. And Rarely granted.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PM
And to single out Islam as a single, well defined thing which is ALWAYS opposed to your beliefs is just plain ignorance. You are lumping all Muslims together into a single group which believes a single "bad" thing.
You claim its ignorance and to that I say phfft. You dish out politically correct mumbo jumbo after posting a picture of typical casualties of war; a war against ISIS in syria. That kid would not have been hurt if not for islamic practices. End of story.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PMDon't get me wrong. Islam is shit. It is a bad fucking religion with some bad fucking ideas, generally speaking. But that's the key. It is bad "generally speaking". Not 100% of the time.
Sez u. I mean seriously, there isn't a more fucked up religion going on that I can think of. Lots of them are shit, but they ain't out beheading people, raping captives or burning POWs to death. And I am VERY ok with shutting the border down to them UNTIL IT REFORMS.
Quote from: widdershins on August 29, 2016, 05:06:51 PMMany Muslims, especially those who have been Westernized, are actually more decent as human beings than some of the rabid asshole Christians who come here.
For now. Tomorrow they may flip and turn into that blood thirsty savage for allah like this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan
or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting
etc.
Ya can take the muslim out of syria but ya can't take islam out of the muslim....
Quote from: Penn Jillette story tellingMy family is from pakistan
Every one in my community is a devout muslim.
...and it is not unlikely that someone in my community would kill me.
He was speaking about his muslim community in the usa killing him for being an atheist. Islam is contrary to the values of the USA. You can try to mealy mouth your way around that invoking pictures of dirty kids and dead puppies but it does not change the basics of the issue. Islam is not a religion of peace.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 01:08:18 PM
I have no problem with sending in food/medical help/etc. I do have a problem with open borders/unchecked immigration. Two separate issues. The child in your pic was not a refugee, rather he was in that position due to unknown choices his parents made.
He was in that position because the United States and Britain decided that Syria needed an uprising and that Assad needed to go. Action to harm the Syrian government was talked about by the US and Britain since at least way back in 2007-2009. You guys are responsible for this whole mess and have provided more weapons to terrorists than anyone else has, so as far as I'm concerned, your country has a moral obligation to take in these refugees and provide them with safety.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 29, 2016, 08:01:03 PM
He was in that position because the United States and Britain decided that Syria needed an uprising and that Assad needed to go. Action to harm the Syrian government was talked about by the US and Britain since at least way back in 2007-2009. You guys are responsible for this whole mess and have provided more weapons to terrorists than anyone else has, so as far as I'm concerned, your country has a moral obligation to take in these refugees and provide them with safety.
Well you certainly present a convinced opinion without much substance.
Aljazeera-not exactly pro-usa:
Quote aljazeera:
In 2011, what became known as the "Arab Spring" revolts toppled Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
That March, peaceful protests erupted in Syria as well, after 15 boys were detained and tortured for having written graffiti in support of the Arab Spring. One of the boys, 13-year-old Hamza al-Khateeb , was killed after having been brutally tortured.
The Syrian government, led by President Bashar al-Assad, responded to the protests by killing hundreds of demonstrators and imprisoning many more. In July 2011, defectors from the military announced the formation of the Free Syrian Army, a rebel group aiming to overthrow the government, and Syria began to slide into civil war.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/syria-civil-war-explained-160505084119966.html
Quote wiki:
Those who have conducted airstrikes in Syria include the United States, Australia, Bahrain, Canada, France, Jordan, The Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates and the United Kingdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#Western_coalition
If I remember correctly, you are in canada. Feel free to bring these 'refugees' into canada.
Oh look, the "emotions are terrible, how dare you be a human being" arguments started again.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 10:36:16 PM
If I remember correctly, you are in canada. Feel free to bring these 'refugees' into canada.
I'm glad to have them here but obviously we can't take them all in.
Even if you believe that the uprising was entirely natural with no outside influence, that still doesn't take away from my argument that you have a moral obligation here. If it wasn't for America and it's allies, Assad would have crushed the terrorist uprising. The US has supplied the terrorists with more weapons than anyone else, all because Assad refused to bow down and let them have their pipeline. If it wasn't for your invasion of Iraq based on the lie of WMDs, you wouldn't see the ISIS that currently exists. If it wasn't for the US leaving all those weapons and vehicles behind in Iraq to be taken by ISIS, and arming other terrorist groups fighting against Assad, ISIS would not exist in the same way that it does today, so it's ridiculous for you to try to make the argument that the people of Syria are the one's to blame when their children get injured in this war or die in this war, and that the US is not to blame whatsoever.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 29, 2016, 10:37:48 PM
Oh look, the "emotions are terrible, how dare you be a human being" arguments started again.
You are aware of what the strawman fallacy is, aren't you?
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
It is absolutely an appeal to emotion on all fronts, starting with Penn Jillette. The kid was getting help, hence the picture of him sitting in an ambulance. His parents are responsible for his condition not me, not the USA. I don't know why they decided to stay in a war zone. Assad is not stopping them from moving to another city.The strawman is your creation. The border and immigration is a separate issue from once you are on the ground in the usa as a legal immigrant/refugee and innocent until proven guilty. Two separate issues.
The picture was of a single kid in a place where many suffer. If it weren't for attitudes like yours he may not have even been there in the first place.
And then there's another straw man. I never said you were responsible for his condition. I only illustrated that the people in the area need help. His parents may or may not have "decided" to stay in a war zone. Not everyone has the option of just picking up and moving. ISIS is known for blockading towns they occupy. You don't want your meat shields walking out on you. There is no indication whether or not they actually had a "choice", but you're pretending that it's all on the parents, cut and dried.
I mentioned "innocent until proven guilty", not as a direct assertion of their "rights", as should have been obvious, but as an indication of what we, as Americans, hold to be important. I was more saying that if we hold this concept to be so important why do we view all Muslims as being terrorists than I was asserting that non-Americans in any way enjoyed American rights which, again, should have been obvious.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Here we have a great example of handwaving and strawmanning extraordinaire. We don't need Islamic values in the usa and islamic values run contrary to the foundation values of this country, you know, that pesky document, the Bill of rights. That pesky little document actually REJECTS basic islamic values wholeheartedly. Islamic values are NOT our values.
Oh yes, the Bill of Rights. I've heard of it. If I recall, and you'll have to forgive me as this is from memory, it starts with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or restricting the free exercise thereof..." Do you mean THAT Bill of Rights? The one that BEGINS by saying we shouldn't judge people by their religious beliefs? THAT is the Bill of Rights you are using to defend your judgement of people by their religious beliefs?
Once again, as you seem to miss this, I am not saying the Bill of Rights applies to foreign peoples. I am only saying that if you hold the Bill or Rights so dear, what that particular document holds most dear is that we NOT establish any religious beliefs as being more or less important than any other. THAT document, the one you seem to be claiming supports your claim, actually says that NO religious beliefs "run contrary to the foundation values of this country".
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Yes, it thrives on segregation AND subjugation which is another damn good reason to shut them out of this country. Again, more examples of why muslim application for immigration should be heavily scrutinized. Conditional even. And Rarely granted.
Now THAT runs contrary to the intent of the Bill of Rights, judging by the "values" expressed in the very first amendment. Why is it bigots and gun nuts always wave around the Constitution but don't seem to know what the fuck it says?
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
You claim its ignorance and to that I say phfft. You dish out politically correct mumbo jumbo after posting a picture of typical casualties of war; a war against ISIS in syria. That kid would not have been hurt if not for islamic practices. End of story.
If it were "end of story" there wouldn't be a fucking conversation now would there? I am not being "politically correct". I fucking hate Islam and I think the made-up word "Islamophobia" is total bullshit. But I do give a fuck about people, even if they're not like me.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Sez u. I mean seriously, there isn't a more fucked up religion going on that I can think of.
If you think I disagree with that then you REALLY have no clue what the fuck I'm about. There truly IS NO more fucked up religion than Islam...in it's extreme form. But like Christianity, there are many versions, many beliefs. Westernized Muslims call Islam "the religion of peace" and they mean it. Westernized Muslims won't kill you for drowning Mohamed fucking a goat. You want to kill radical Islam? So do I! Are you going to do it by bombing all the little cockroaches in the Middle East? There used to be two tall towers in New York that told us how well THAT worked out for us. So how do you do it? You Westernize them. You educate them. You get them in a controlled environment where they have no power and you civilize the beasts.
If you think I don't want every last radical piece of shit dead on the battlefield, think again. If you think that I'm okay with Muslims coming over hear and taking us backward a hundred years in social development and women's rights, think again. But not all Muslims are like that, and those who are can change. It won't be easy, it won't be quick, but the only way to annihilate radical Islam is with education. There is literally no other way. You can't take education to them. They'll kill children for being educated there. You have to bring them to the education. You have to get the innocents off the battlefield so that carpet bombing becomes a realistic solution which will kill only "bad guys".
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Lots of them are shit, but they ain't out beheading people, raping captives or burning POWs to death. And I am VERY ok with shutting the border down to them UNTIL IT REFORMS.
Then you will shut the borders forever.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
For now. Tomorrow they may flip and turn into that blood thirsty savage for allah like this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan
or this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting
etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting
Ya can take the muslim out of syria but ya can't take islam out of the muslim....
So you can show me a few examples of things that make you shit your pants and that makes all Muslims a similar risk? You have to know that's bullshit. It's anecdotal evidence vs statistical reality.
Quote from: chill98 on August 29, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
He was speaking about his muslim community in the usa killing him for being an atheist. Islam is contrary to the values of the USA. You can try to mealy mouth your way around that invoking pictures of dirty kids and dead puppies but it does not change the basics of the issue. Islam is not a religion of peace.
You keep saying that Islam is contrary to US values as if saying it repeatedly is going to somehow magically make it true. It is not true and it will never be true no matter how much you repeat it. There is no singular set of "US values". Each individual has different values. Just as there is no singular form of "Islam". There are many Islamic belief systems, some of which very much do not run contrary to even the "values" you believe the US to have as a whole. Ever heard of Aasif Mandvi? Very funny guy. Very likable. Very liberal. His religion is Islam. Ever heard of Malala Yousafzai? She's unlikely to be running around killing girls for going to school, I think. She fights for women's rights to be educated. In what way is that "contrary to the values of the USA"?
I can give you singular examples of innocuous, even heroic Muslims just as you can give me examples of nut jobs killing people in the name of Islam. That's why anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. For every evil Muslim you show me I can show you one who fights for women's rights, who fights against violence, who speaks out against radical Islam. And I can do that because Islam is not a singular, united belief system capable only of making terrorists as you are painting it to be. Your belief that "Islam" is a single thing which is "contrary to the values of the USA", which is apparently also a single thing, very much is ignorant. It is uninformed and unintelligent. Yes, there are dangerous Muslims. Yes, there are a lot more of them in the Middle East than there are currently here in the US. But yes, there are innocent people there who, yes, are VERY MUCH in a situation not within their ability to get out of. You see someone wearing a towel on his head and think "terrorist". I see a human being who is different than me. The big difference between you and me is not "political correctness" on my part, as you claim. It's that when I see him or her or them, I care. You don't. I see human beings. You see vile people whose beliefs are too different from your own to give a shit about. I'm not being politically correct. I just care about human beings who are different than me a shitload more than you do.
The US has taken in 10,000 ... our quota. So there. Hope it works out well. Probably just providing cannon fodder for the CIA to recruit for return trips. The CIA has been doing this since 1946.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
The picture was of a single kid in a place where many suffer. If it weren't for attitudes like yours he may not have even been there in the first place.
The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made. You do not know (nor do I) whether his parents support Assad or ISIS or other. Don't know why they chose to stay in a war zone and put their own kid in harms way but it has ZERO to do with my attitude.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
And then there's another straw man. I never said you were responsible for his condition. I only illustrated that the people in the area need help. His parents may or may not have "decided" to stay in a war zone. ISIS is known for blockading towns they occupy. You don't want your meat shields walking out on you. There is no indication whether or not they actually had a "choice", but you're pretending that it's all on the parents, cut and dried.
Here we go again with another mealy mouthed response. You absolutely did say "because of people like YOU". So yes you did say I am responsible.
Yes, ISIS is alleged (believable) to not only blockade towns, but to use human shields. Not my fault, not Assads fault, not anyone but ISIS modus operand. And my attitude did not make that happen to anyone in syria, including that kid in the photo. Not my fault, not my responsibility, not my concern. I really don't care about that kid or his family.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PMI mentioned "innocent until proven guilty", not as a direct assertion of their "rights", as should have been obvious, but as an indication of what we, as Americans, hold to be important. I was more saying that if we hold this concept to be so important why do we view all Muslims as being terrorists than I was asserting that non-Americans in any way enjoyed American rights which, again, should have been obvious.
THEY ARE NOT AMERICANS on USA soil. UNTIL that happens they do not have innocent until proven guilty. I do want to make sure those who are allowed to immigrate meet SOME standard of inherent US values. And I disagree with the crap Jillette posted on his video.
QuoteFourth, the Secretary of Treasury [State] and the Attorney General will invalidate all visas issued to Iranian citizens for future entry into the United States, effective today. We will not reissue visas, nor will we issue new visas, except for compelling and proven humanitarian reasons or where the national interest of our own country requires. This directive will be interpreted very strictly.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233
So yes it seems to be in a presidents authority to deny immigration. And the Iranian revolution was about religion.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PMOh yes, the Bill of Rights. I've heard of it. If I recall, and you'll have to forgive me as this is from memory, it starts with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or restricting the free exercise thereof..." Do you mean THAT Bill of Rights? The one that BEGINS by saying we shouldn't judge people by their religious beliefs? THAT is the Bill of Rights you are using to defend your judgement of people by their religious beliefs?
This isnt about making a law regarding the practice of religion and once again, it does not apply in regards to Syrian nationals being allowed into the usa. The point was clearly ISLAM does not hold those values.
Jehova witness do not hold MY values. So I don't invite them into my house. Muslims do not hold the values of the USA and we should not invite them in without careful scrutiny.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
Once again, as you seem to miss this, I am not saying the Bill of Rights applies to foreign peoples. I am only saying that if you hold the Bill or Rights so dear, what that particular document holds most dear is that we NOT establish any religious beliefs as being more or less important than any other. THAT document, the one you seem to be claiming supports your claim, actually says that NO religious beliefs "run contrary to the foundation values of this country".
NOPE. You are twisting the statements made. Islam does not hold those values. Islam does not believe in separation of state/religion. Islam does not believe in freedom of speech. etc.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PMThen you will shut the borders forever.
I am fine with that. 350+million people here are enough.
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
You keep saying that Islam is contrary to US values as if saying it repeatedly is going to somehow magically make it true.
I dont have to keep repeating it. Your own words imply you know this to be true. Again and again you point to 'westernized muslims' to support your position; because they have to be conditioned (reformed)? Because their values are not ours?
Yeah, you have to point to westernized muslims to find these things because you can't find them in these "different than me" people you care about?
Quote from: widdershins on August 30, 2016, 12:31:35 PMI'm not being politically correct. I just care about human beings who are different than me a shitload more than you do.
Really? Just how much do you care about people half a world away? Only enough to spend a hour typing up a response to my indifference? Pfft. While you probably believe these things about yourself; that you actually give a shit I mean; I don't believe you have any more invested in this 'caring' than I do.
Just posing for the cameras is all...
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 30, 2016, 02:40:31 AM
Even if you believe that the uprising was entirely natural with no outside influence, that still doesn't take away from my argument that you have a moral obligation here.
I think I backed my position up with documentation. Something you have not done.
I agree we can ship food/medical aid to refugee camps as needed. That is the end of my chosen (not moral) response to the situation in syria.
QuoteThe reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made. You do not know (nor do I) whether his parents support Assad or ISIS or other. Don't know why they chose to stay in a war zone and put their own kid in harms way but it has ZERO to do with my attitude.
"We should not accept refugees! They live there because they choose not to come to us!"
I don't know if you know this, but just "picking up and leaving" is not something done easily. Let's forget the economics of it; getting out of the country is more dangerous (in the short term) than sitting where you are at and hoping things blow over quickly. It's not like Syrians can just pack their thing in a suitcase and just stroll outside, whistling a fine diddly and casually walk across the country to Turkey or ride a luxury yacht into Eastern Europe. You have to cross battlefields, you have to go through ISIS controlled territory, you have to hope your leaky boat that is about 50 people over the capacity doesn't deposit you in the middle of the Mediterranean, you have to hope you find some way to eat, you have to hope the country will even let you in and you have to hope when you get there you will be even remotely accepted.
Let's cut the bullshit of acting like being a refugee is somehow peaches and butterflies and that anyone who didn't choose that option are
obviously terrible people who deserve what they got.
QuoteNot my fault, not my responsibility, not my concern.
That's your prerogative, but when people call you out for being a shitty person you really cant act surprise since you are, well, kinda a shitty person.
QuoteTHEY ARE NOT AMERICANS on USA soil. UNTIL that happens they do not have innocent until proven guilty. I do want to make sure those who are allowed to immigrate meet SOME standard of inherent US values. And I disagree with the crap Jillette posted on his video.
So we only care about our morality and values when it's people we care about; otherwise fuck our morality and values and go fuck yourself you dirty foreigner.
Can you really call them "values" when you only think they should apply to people you like? I think that is just a wee bit too arbitrary to deserve the term "value", more "conditional privileges for people I like".
QuoteYeah, you have to point to westernized muslims to find these things because you can't find them in these "different than me" people you care about?
What a great way to trivialize those who actually fight and die in the Middle East and Africa to live a moderate life... "I don't hear about them, so they don't exist!"
tl;dr the rest. Basically, "I hate Jillete for appealing to emotions, we should not help them because they are scary and I don't have any other emotions toward them."
*yawn*
@Shiranu This is a small thing, but can you please use the quote button on the post you're quoting, instead of inserting the text from the post within the [/quote] code?
It makes things easier to figure out the source of what you are quoting from where and easier to follow.... both from a general discussion standpoint and a moderator standpoint.
Please. Thank you.
Quote from: chill98 on August 31, 2016, 12:16:47 AM
The reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.
Let's keep it simple this time. Prove that.
Quote from: widdershins on August 31, 2016, 11:19:36 AM
Let's keep it simple this time.
Better yet, lets keep the topic about Jillette's bs political agenda wrapped in poor innocent muslims video.
Quote from: chill98 on August 31, 2016, 03:57:38 PM
Better yet, lets keep the topic about Jillette's bs political agenda wrapped in poor innocent muslims video.
Oh, hey, let's change the subject when I point out you said something completely stupid and not based in fact or reality.
If you can't be bothered to defend what you post then you might as well not bother posting at all. If you're going to be full of shit at least pretend to have evidence that you're not.
Quote from: widdershins on August 31, 2016, 04:45:20 PM
Oh, hey, let's change the subject when I point out you said something completely stupid and not based in fact or reality.
If you can't be bothered to defend what you post then you might as well not bother posting at all. If you're going to be full of shit at least pretend to have evidence that you're not.
Ya know what, the subject was Jillette's video; which is a rag-tag unrelated theme he stitched together to present a political viewpoint on american politics.
You have a picture you present as fact and reality without having one fucking clue about why that kid was in that situation. In the video at WaPo link, where your pic was taken from, pay attention at the 1:00 mark when you here a man saying "this way, this way" English speaking to an Arabic speaking people?? 1:05 you will need to be quick with pause as two military people come into the shot, one with a video cam. Then a 3rd. Last part of the video, listen to chants of Allah u akbar as it appears they brought out a body. A fallen soldier?
Edit: While I do have the software, I don't want to spend my time zooming in to see what all is on the belts of the military persons in the video. As pointed out, ISIS is known for using human shields.
/edit
Notice No Women were harmed in the making of this video... No screaming moms at all.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/08/17/the-stunned-bloodied-face-of-a-child-survivor-sums-up-the-horror-of-aleppo/?tid=pm_world_pop_b
I already defended my post.
The only shit I give about the Syrian conflict is that we stay the fuck out of it. Assad is a prick but he is surrounded by a shitload of psychopaths for Allah.
Quote from: chill98 on August 31, 2016, 12:16:47 AMThe reason that kid is was hit by a bomb was because of choices his parents made.
I'm pretty sure that the reason the kid was hit by a bomb was because an asshole set off a bomb. What you're doing is called victim blaming. While I would agree that making decisions based on emotions alone can be unwise, it does appear that you are reaching a bit trying to prove your point.
Quote from: chill98 on August 31, 2016, 06:45:13 PM
Ya know what, the subject was Jillette's video;
I'm not even reading any further than that. I was quoting YOU. The subject of a REPLY is the text I am REPLYING to. The "subject" was what I was quoting from YOU.
Look, it's simple. You said something stupid. FSM knows I have. It's indefensible because it was wrong. No sense throwing a fit about it. You either want to have an intelligent discussion or you don't. If you do then when you find out you were wrong you say, "Sorry, you got me there. I was wrong about that" and you move on. Otherwise you throw a fit and try redirecting the conversation over and over again, in which case I'm not really interested in a conversation with you anyway. Your choice.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 31, 2016, 11:38:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that the reason the kid was hit by a bomb was because an asshole set off a bomb. What you're doing is called victim blaming. While I would agree that making decisions based on emotions alone can be unwise, it does appear that you are reaching a bit trying to prove your point.
Yeah, it is hard to imagine a parent would allow their children to be used in such a manner but they do. One example is putting their kids in front of our convoys in an attempt to get them to stop so they could set off IEDs. Others here:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-09-12-child-soldiers-afghanistan_N.htm
Syria (from 2014):
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/use-child-soldiers-syria-condemned-20146237583974800.html
Don't trust aljazeera? How about PBS (again 2014 and things have only gotten worse since):
quote One of the characters profiled in the film is Farah, an eight year old who says her favorite activity is helping her father, a rebel commander, build bombs. It’s dangerous work, and Farah knows it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/witnessing-syrias-war-through-the-eyes-of-its-children/
Rebel bombs (again 2014):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/aleppos-most-wanted-man-rebel-leader-tunnel-bombs
Victim blaming? Or healthy skepticism regarding just how low some people can be enticed to go for 'the cause'. Watch the wapo video linked above of the scene from the 'bombing'. I am highly suspicious of the propaganda from ALL Sides.
Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/03/u-s-military-intelligence-involved-in-chemical-attack-in-syria/
Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin
Hmmm (2015):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/
Open Letter (2015)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley/calling-again-for-proof-r_b_8880064.html
Approx 6 months later the attempted coup in Turkey.
Other stuff:
wiki quote :In July 2015, a raid by US special forces on a compound housing the Islamic State's "chief financial officer", Abu Sayyaf, produced evidence that Turkish officials directly dealt with ranking IS members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan#Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
I don't know why that kids parents chose to stay in Allepo. While one has to regard any information about behind the lines activities as unreliable, it is estimated that the population of Eastern Allepo was 1million before the war and 40K now. It is very possible that the kids parents support the rebels and chose to stay to fight Assad. That does make them responsible for the kid being in harms way.
One can imagine that situation is impossible, but that is based on what we think WE would do.
Quote from: chill98 on September 01, 2016, 10:20:46 AM
Yeah, it is hard to imagine a parent would allow their children to be used in such a manner but they do. One example is putting their kids in front of our convoys in an attempt to get them to stop so they could set off IEDs. Others here:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-09-12-child-soldiers-afghanistan_N.htm
Syria (from 2014):
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/use-child-soldiers-syria-condemned-20146237583974800.html
Don't trust aljazeera? How about PBS (again 2014 and things have only gotten worse since):
quote One of the characters profiled in the film is Farah, an eight year old who says her favorite activity is helping her father, a rebel commander, build bombs. It’s dangerous work, and Farah knows it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/witnessing-syrias-war-through-the-eyes-of-its-children/
Rebel bombs (again 2014):
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/aleppos-most-wanted-man-rebel-leader-tunnel-bombs
Victim blaming? Or healthy skepticism regarding just how low some people can be enticed to go for 'the cause'. Watch the wapo video linked above of the scene from the 'bombing'. I am highly suspicious of the propaganda from ALL Sides.
Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/03/u-s-military-intelligence-involved-in-chemical-attack-in-syria/
Thin evidence (2013):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin
Hmmm (2015):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/
Open Letter (2015)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/coleen-rowley/calling-again-for-proof-r_b_8880064.html
Approx 6 months later the attempted coup in Turkey.
Other stuff:
wiki quote :In July 2015, a raid by US special forces on a compound housing the Islamic State's "chief financial officer", Abu Sayyaf, produced evidence that Turkish officials directly dealt with ranking IS members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan#Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant
I don't know why that kids parents chose to stay in Allepo. While one has to regard any information about behind the lines activities as unreliable, it is estimated that the population of Eastern Allepo was 1million before the war and 40K now. It is very possible that the kids parents support the rebels and chose to stay to fight Assad. That does make them responsible for the kid being in harms way.
One can imagine that situation is impossible, but that is based on what we think WE would do.
One can "imagine" a lot of things. I never said that shit didn't happen. I know very well that it does. But there is no evidence that it
did happen in this case. And all of that is irrelevant anyway because this was one
example, not the only person suffering. It was a hastily posted example of the suffering of these people never intended to be any sort of specific focus. Even then you are STILL claiming that this kid's parents "chose" to stay. I have asked you to prove that. Instead, you claimed that wasn't the subject and then AGAIN made it the subject. You made a claim. More than once. PROVE IT!
One can actually KNOW with a good degree of certainly that there ARE cases where the parents did not "choose" to remain, where people are suffering through absolutely no fault of their own or their parents. One can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that giving refuge to refugees WILL keep some people from harm. And one can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that there ARE good people, even if they are good people with some bad ideas, in these war torn places.
This isn't a real war, it is playacting. But in a real war, you carpet bomb the civilians. Ask the Krauts and the Japs about it. Civilians in that case, are targets ... enemy civilians are the families of the soldiers/sailors fighting us. Kill them all, let none escape. Long live Genghis Khan!
That said ... we are just fooling around ... and that is less conscionable than straightforward slaughter. This is permanent war, for the economy ... and weapons testing. Just like Vietnam. We can't win, because that ends it. We can't slaughter them, because there won't be enough to keep the game going. You have to think pure evil, to think like a government, or a corporation.
That view is too cynical even for me, and that's saying a lot. You are correct at least to an extent, though. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not names of military bases, after all.
Quote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PM
But there is no evidence that it did happen in this case.
The kid is in custody of his parents.
His parents made the choice to stay in Allepo. There is plenty of evidence to support the FACT the parents had options and made choices that impacted the health and well-being of their children. Not my fault you did not seek out further information before reaching a conclusion.
Quote from: Reuters may 2016Mohammad Muaz Abu Saleh, a senior councillor in the rebel Aleppo governate council, said residents were nonetheless not abandoning opposition-held areas.
"Those who wanted to leave Aleppo have fled," he said. Those who have stayed behind "have decided to stay under all circumstances of shelling and siege. Aleppo will remain populated with its people not leaving."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-kerry-idUSKCN0XT0JJJuly 2016
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36932694Quote from: aljazeera July 2016The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights also reported on Saturday that "a number" of civilians had crossed into government territory.
Freelance journalist Alaa Ebrahim told Al Jazeera he had personally witnessed hundreds of people using the corridors leaving rebel-controlled areas.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/syria-war-families-leave-rebel-held-parts-aleppo-160730124401589.htmlQuote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PMAnd all of that is irrelevant anyway because this was one example, not the only person suffering. It was a hastily posted example of the suffering of these people never intended to be any sort of specific focus.
Hasty is one way to put it. And it is still an appeal to emotion and it is a GREAT picture for that.
Quote from: widdershins on September 01, 2016, 12:52:20 PMOne can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that giving refuge to refugees WILL keep some people from harm. And one can know with a pretty good degree of certainty that there ARE good people, even if they are good people with some bad ideas, in these war torn places.
Are you ADD? I have no issue with sending food/medical to refugee camps and have said that multiple times. Furthermore, it is a TEMPORARY solution to the immediate issue, but does nothing to address the real problem in those middle eastern countries and that is ISLAM.
Finally, the kid in the pic was not in a refugee camp! His parents made the decision to not even go to the other side of town (where the government is in control, where civil services continue, where school is in session, where clean hospitals exist).
Still not understanding how "I am afraid of them!" is not an emotional argument, but saying, "We shouldn't be afraid and be decent human beings who care for one another." is...
Or what's wrong with being emotional, one of the things that is quintessential to the human experience...
When "logic" and "rationality" comes before taking care of your fellow human, frankly it has lost any use imo.
Quote from: chill98 on September 02, 2016, 02:02:25 PM
The kid is in custody of his parents.
His parents made the choice to stay in Allepo. There is plenty of evidence to support the FACT the parents had options and made choices...
I was unaware of that FACT. What is this evidence? Please present it.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 02, 2016, 02:13:28 PM
Still not understanding how "I am afraid of them!" is not an emotional argument, but saying, "We shouldn't be afraid and be decent human beings who care for one another." is...
Or what's wrong with being emotional, one of the things that is quintessential to the human experience...
When "logic" and "rationality" comes before taking care of your fellow human, frankly it has lost any use imo.
Thank you!
Quote from: Baruch on August 30, 2016, 06:47:46 PM
The US has taken in 10,000 ... our quota. So there. Hope it works out well. Probably just providing cannon fodder for the CIA to recruit for return trips. The CIA has been doing this since 1946.
And not just the CIA--the service intel branches were/are doing this a bit, too.
Quote from: widdershins on September 02, 2016, 10:43:49 AM
That view is too cynical even for me, and that's saying a lot. You are correct at least to an extent, though. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not names of military bases, after all.
We knew we were doing war crimes in German cities and Japanese cities, even before the Bomb. But I am good with it. The Allies aren't the good guys, just the winners.
My advice to this man is to not take Trump seriously. Trump spews hazardous delusional rhetoric, but at least... he will be an afterthought in a few months.
What troubles me is the kind of treatment he would receive at the hands of his own community. They might murder him? In America? I understand most Muslims are not terrorists, but evidently there are serious problems otherwise. I can't believe something so disgustingly draconian has made its way across the ocean.
Follow-up on Alepo child photograph and its source. Have not had time to research. Is it True?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jifS0fi9WB8&feature=youtu.be
Supposedly some people have been beheaded by ISIS, including women and children. Beheadings and burning alive occurs in Mexico also ... with government backing. As per Dick Cheney ... so? Could BBC act as a propaganda element of the British government? Surely you already know the answer.
Quote from: chill98 on October 10, 2016, 08:53:45 PM
Follow-up on Alepo child photograph and its source. Have not had time to research. Is it True?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jifS0fi9WB8&feature=youtu.be
Some people, theist and non-theist, commit acts of cruelty and barbarism.
I THINK more is initiated by insane theists in the 21st century, but there are insane non-theist bastards in the world, too..