So I recently found the Cult of Dusty channel on YouTube via a collaboration video with The Amazing Atheist and several others. The guy is hilarious and has some really interesting points. Last night, I watched a video of his titled "Black Christians = Uncle Toms." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLwUA3CHumk) I remember this thought passing through my head once. Why would a people adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them, who capture them from their homes and treat them as subhuman property? Why wouldn't black people cast aside the religion that was forced upon them after they were made free? I could understand black Muslims, but Christians?
And one of the funny things I've noticed is that some predominantly black churches still have old white men in leadership positions. So little has changed. White men still use their religion to control black people. How do they never make this connection?
Dusty made some very good points. If Christianity is true, then black people kind of owe their ancestors' slave masters, don't they? If it wasn't for them, these black people would be doomed to eternal Hell fire. Isn't it better to suffer for a little while on earth than to die and go to Hell to suffer forever? So on behalf of my (probably) slave owning ancestors, you're welcome black Christians!
But as a student in psychology, of course I understand. After generations and generations of the religion being forced on them, of course they'd stop questioning it. It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome, except applied to generations rather than individuals. But it's time that black Christians woke up and realize that it makes absolutely no sense for them to continue worshiping the god who was used to defend the slavery and treatment of their ancestors.
I've often wondered about this too. I usually explain it as Christianity (or Islam or any other idiotic fantasy) promising rewards to the oppressed and those living in a world of despair from which they are not capable of extracting themselves. However, I have a black friend, a Christian fundamentalist, who chose that wacky religion for much the same reasons as stupid white men choose it. And when I re-read my theoretical description of the blackman's world of despair, it pretty much mirrors the whiteman's world of despair. Not to say there aren't differences in degree, but it's the same psychological mechanism that leads people into prisons of false hope.
I've wondered the same for quite some time. I still have no real answers. Except that black people are people and like all people, they generally like to believe and not think. So, any religion would fit that category--christian or muslim; both religions condone slavery and engage in it even today. The eternal question of all ages and cultures--why am I alive?--demands an answer. To find it, it is easier to simply believe something rather than having to engage in thinking and looking for logical facts and data. It's easy to say that the bad christians used and distorted the bible to allow slavery. The good ones fought it using the same bible. It's easy to say the slaves used the bible and religion to 'communicate' among themselves and the masters did not realize that. It is easy to make up things to believe in--hard to have to think and analyze what really is going on. Science and reason takes work--religion only takes believing in something.
The slaves were pagans or Muslims, brought here against their will. If there had been African pagan or African Muslim organizations back then, they would have stayed the way they were. But Christianity was part of the colonialism and slavery. So since most people don't choose to be atheists, they took up what religion they could ... though segregated. Black preachers are good at preaching for a reason, they preach from their pain.
Well then too, there's that old saw about "One's religion is most often determined by the religion of the environment you grow up in." That pretty much underscores the hypothesis that one's religion is not a product of logical processes, but most often a simple product of mindless tradition, or better yet indoctrination.
Quote from: SGOS on July 30, 2016, 10:43:14 AM
Well then too, there's that old saw about "One's religion is most often determined by the religion of the environment you grow up in." That pretty much underscores the hypothesis that one's religion is not a product of logical processes, but most often a simple product of mindless tradition, or better yet indoctrination.
Working at Hill I knew a black Master Sergeant that was very into black American history. He did portrayals of American "Buffalo Soldiers" in the cavalry. and he was a devout Christian. Surprised there aren't more blacks that would hearken back to their pagan roots and worship the deities of their ancestors.
They exist for the same reason that gay Christians exist, for the same reason gay muslims exist, because despite Christianity and islam being deeply rooted in homophobic and gay hating storytelling, people are easily manipulated and lead when indoctrinated from an early age, and find it hard to break from that indoctrination, even when it goes against their very nature.
Quote from: stromboli on July 30, 2016, 11:32:19 AM
Working at Hill I knew a black Master Sergeant that was very into black American history. He did portrayals of American "Buffalo Soldiers" in the cavalry. and he was a devout Christian. Surprised there aren't more blacks that would hearken back to their pagan roots and worship the deities of their ancestors.
Considering the importance cultures attach to the preservation of their heritage (although I've seen this more in Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Eskimos, but to a lesser extent in African Americans), religion seems like a part of each culture that would be most highly prized. On the other hand, the religion that shaped American culture has at its heart, the elimination of all other forms of belief. So you have a "war to the death" between two cherished cultural values with higher than ordinary penalties attached to attempting to preserve the minority cultural religions.
Yes, the United States takes pride in its freedom of religion, but we all know that is mostly just empty political correctness, and in extreme Christian interpretations, freedom of religion just means the freedom to impose Christianity on others. So the cultural reality of the US is hardly as open as the picture we like to paint. There is a great deal of religious suppression at the heart of our democracy.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but church was the social hub of the community back in the day. Women who didn't get off the farm for six days straight had incentive to insist on church attendance just to get out of the house and speak with other women of their age. Black church or white church this held true until casual mobility became common, i.e., cars and trucks. After that is was social inertia that kept the pews full. That's winding down now, I think.
Quote from: SGOS on July 30, 2016, 12:25:50 PMYes, the United States takes pride in its freedom of religion, but we all know that is mostly just empty political correctness, and in extreme Christian interpretations, freedom of religion just means the freedom to impose Christianity on others. So the cultural reality of the US is hardly as open as the picture we like to paint. There is a great deal of religious suppression at the heart of our democracy.
Ideally, I could believe in no gods, my neighbor twenty gods, and my neighbor's neighbor one and it wouldn't matter. But in reality, these differences quickly affect public policy and society. Your religion doesn't like birth control or abortion? Then neither does the state. My kids have to say your prayers at school. Your religion has a special day of no work? Businesses are shut down that day. And if your religion frowns on beer being sold at certain times then no one can buy it at that time. Praises to your God go on our money. Etc, etc, etc.
In theory, religion is private and tolerant. In reality, it is public and domineering. And the dominant cult makes the rules, a notion that should be reconsidered quickly in light of virulent and fanatical strains of religion cropping up and making plays for political power.
Considering that the Christianisation of black people started hundreds of years ago with colonisation and that these people were sold and bought as property, it's stupid to expect these people to continue their pagan culture or any culture of their own when they are not defined as human or people.
Do you think they adopted Christianity by choice or a result of some consideration? Or they had a chance to question it? Did 'free' white people common or in master status had a chance to question Christianity?
In their case, at that time, it is not even defined as imposing Christianity. It's imposing today. It's simply matter of life and death, torture.
Quote from: SGOS on July 30, 2016, 12:25:50 PM
Yes, the United States takes pride in its freedom of religion, but we all know that is mostly just empty political correctness, and in extreme Christian interpretations, freedom of religion just means the freedom to impose Christianity on others. So the cultural reality of the US is hardly as open as the picture we like to paint. There is a great deal of religious suppression at the heart of our democracy.
Right now you look sexy.
Why would black people be smarter than any other people? Everyone has been screwed over by religion.
Education is part of it. Blacks are less educated on average, so they will be more likely to have a higher religiosity, just like rednecks who drop out of highschool are far less likely to ever drop their religion compared to a while college student. Blacks have a higher level of poverty on average, so they are going to want to hold onto their religion tight, because it gives them a sense of hope and promises future rewards. Also, blacks are less accepting of their fellow blacks leaving the faith. Being a white atheist is just easier than being a black atheist or a brown skinned atheist who has left Islam.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 30, 2016, 02:41:49 PM
Why would black people be smarter than any other people? Everyone has been screwed over by religion.
And compared to the white group, no education at all. Illiterate.
people are stupid
I'd argue that black Muslims make even less sense. It was common practise for Muslims to castrate their black slaves, and to this day they are seen as sub-human.
I would guess that people like Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali knew next to nothing about this, and this idea that black people consider the banner of Islam to be a sensible rallying point is actually painfully ironic.
Quote from: Cocoa Beware on July 30, 2016, 07:39:39 PM
...and this idea that black people consider the banner of Islam to be a sensible rallying point is actually painfully ironic.
It's only as ironic as them using a Christian banner. Or banners of other groups from religious to secular groups in the US making propaganda on democracy, human rights and freedom to support the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. There are tons of people who think the latest invasions -and so others lol- were carried out to bring democracy to foreign regions and that they refused it because they are just anti-american and bent on destroying democratic source of the world,lol, while the peoples of those regions are not even regarded as humans; and the Christian culture dictated those wars for countless other benefits.
-They are both minorities
-They are both treated with strong bias
-most of the people in islamic groups are nonwhite or black
Evertywhere around the world minorities of different sorts unite in certain climates when their causes fits.
There is nothing extra to it.
In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Perhaps they perceive that all who claim to be Christian do not act in keeping with their stated beliefs. Thus, the views held must be evaluated upon their own merit, rather than by the actions of those who lay claim to them.
Quote from: Freeslave on July 31, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Perhaps they perceive that all who claim to be Christian do not act in keeping with their stated beliefs. Thus, the views held must be evaluated upon their own merit, rather than by the actions of those who lay claim to them.
What????
By "What?" I assume you mean you don't understand my previous post. What part can I help clarify?
As for African Americans and Islam, a huge amount of them converted in prison... they make easier targets, and are people more susceptible to messages of salvation and (for them at the time) something "different" from their captors religion, something rebellious. I doubt the average African American in prison had the slightest clue what Islam did to their ancestors in prison, nor cared.
As for celebrities... Islam can be presented in many different ways, just like Christianity or any other cult; something or beauty, or something of horror. I assume they were presented with the watered down Islam and the "nice" parts, since that's what the majority of Muslims here in the U.S. follow. If they were to have gone to Arabia or Sudan to experience Islam, it's quite likely they wouldn't have converted.
That said, Islam claims to not care about race and only the level of one's piety. You can imagine how enticing that sounded to people who were just started to be recognized as actual human beings by some of society, and still animals to the majority. Of course, one look at the living conditions at the Hajj show that not all Muslims are created equal... but without the internet, that would be nearly impossible to know.
Quote from: Freeslave on July 31, 2016, 11:03:10 PM
By "What?" I assume you mean you don't understand my previous post. What part can I help clarify?
Your username is suspiciously convenient for the topic...
Quote from: Freeslave on July 31, 2016, 11:03:10 PM
By "What?" I assume you mean you don't understand my previous post. What part can I help clarify?
everything mr phatmatt
Quote from: Freeslave on July 31, 2016, 11:03:10 PM
By "What?" I assume you mean you don't understand my previous post. What part can I help clarify?
This part: In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Perhaps they perceive that all who claim to be Christian do not act in keeping with their stated beliefs. Thus, the views held must be evaluated upon their own merit, rather than by the actions of those who lay claim to them.
Actually, this is not a problem for me. When things don't make sense, I just ignore them. But others have this silly expectation that coherent posts are necessary if one wishes to participate in a discussion.
Quote from: Freeslave on July 31, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
Perhaps they perceive that all who claim to be Christian do not act in keeping with their stated beliefs. Thus, the views held must be evaluated upon their own merit, rather than by the actions of those who lay claim to them.
Okay, Freeslave, this is what I don't understand. I'm confused as to the point you are trying to make.
You mentioned that my statement is incoherent. I fail to see how so, but I apologize for the confusion. Perhaps if I phrase the same statement in another way it might be of some help:
In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Maybe they understand that all who say they are Christians don't necessarily act in accordance with Christian principles. Therefore, Christian views should be judged by the teachings themselves, instead of judging Christianity on the basis of the deeds of people who do not act at all like Christians, even though they claim to be.
Hope this helps. :)
Quote from: Freeslave on August 01, 2016, 11:12:16 AM
Maybe they understand that all who say they are Christians don't necessarily act in accordance with Christian principles. Therefore, Christian views should be judged by the teachings themselves, instead of judging Christianity on the basis of the deeds of people who do not act at all like Christians, even though they claim to be.
Hope this helps. :)
I see. The problem arises in that just exactly what are 'Christian principles' or what are the real 'teachings themselves'??? And I would suggest that 'real Christians' exist mainly in the eye of the beholder. It is all subjective. We are talking about a group that cannot even come to agreement about how to baptize--or if that is even necessary.
Quote from: Freeslave on August 01, 2016, 11:12:16 AM
You mentioned that my statement is incoherent. I fail to see how so, but I apologize for the confusion. Perhaps if I phrase the same statement in another way it might be of some help:
In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Maybe they understand that all who say they are Christians don't necessarily act in accordance with Christian principles. Therefore, Christian views should be judged by the teachings themselves, instead of judging Christianity on the basis of the deeds of people who do not act at all like Christians, even though they claim to be.
Hope this helps. :)
That was Gandhi's opinion also. Someone asked him what he thought of Christianity ... he replied it seemed to be a good idea, too bad it hadn't been tried ;-)
To clarify about Black Islam in the US. Originally this is a Black urban cult, loosely attached to actual Islam, that involved a cult of personality of its leader, Elijah Muhammad ... who may have killed the guy who first thought it up, before it became popular. Malcolm X and Farrakhan were in a contest to rule the cult after Elijah Muhammad. Malcolm X was then assassinated ... by agents of Farrakhan according to Malcom X's daughter. Or maybe the FBI. Anyway, Farrakhan seemed to have taken credit for it, to impress Elijah Muhammad. Meanwhile, Malcolm X had just discovered non-racist Islam, while on Hajj, and realized that Elijah Muhammad was a crazed cult leader. Farrakhan took the place of Elijah Muhammad, when the fearless leader passed on. But 2/3 of African-American Muslims, had heard the call of Malcolm X, and followed him into regular Islam, connected to Mecca, not Harlem. Islam in the US in unique, unlike any other, because of its special history.
But I agree, until the 1960s, few Black Muslims had studied outside the madressahs of Nation of Islam.
Quote from: Freeslave on August 01, 2016, 11:12:16 AM
You mentioned that my statement is incoherent. I fail to see how so, but I apologize for the confusion. Perhaps if I phrase the same statement in another way it might be of some help:
In answer to the original query as to why blacks would adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them...?
Maybe they understand that all who say they are Christians don't necessarily act in accordance with Christian principles. Therefore, Christian views should be judged by the teachings themselves, instead of judging Christianity on the basis of the deeds of people who do not act at all like Christians, even though they claim to be.
Hope this helps. :)
The thing is, the pro-slavery Christians
were employing Christian principles. The Bible tells slaves to obey, and gives owners rules for beating their slaves. It never says that slavery is wrong. In fact, God orders his chosen people to take slaves. The only time God shows any distaste for slavery is when the slave is Hebrew. Other people were fair game.
There is some discussion of slavery in the OT, especially in Exodus. For example:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
The NT has less on slavery, but there are still a few gems:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that God disapproves of slavery. Rather, slavery is seen as an institution that Christians should respect. True Christian principles are pro-slavery principles.
Evangelical abolitionists like John Brown were nut cases, and killer cult leaders like Jim Jones. Slavery has never gone away, it is a Hydra, cut off one head, and two grow back.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 30, 2016, 10:12:49 AM
I've wondered the same for quite some time. I still have no real answers. Except that black people are people and like all people, they generally like to believe and not think. So, any religion would fit that category--christian or muslim; both religions condone slavery and engage in it even today. The eternal question of all ages and cultures--why am I alive?--demands an answer. To find it, it is easier to simply believe something rather than having to engage in thinking and looking for logical facts and data. It's easy to say that the bad christians used and distorted the bible to allow slavery. The good ones fought it using the same bible. It's easy to say the slaves used the bible and religion to 'communicate' among themselves and the masters did not realize that. It is easy to make up things to believe in--hard to have to think and analyze what really is going on. Science and reason takes work--religion only takes believing in something.
Very much this. Religion (not necessarily theism) is something you don't generally get into via logic. If you question them about slavery, black Christians are just as likely to go for the "deus vult" explanation as any other Christian.
There is another connection between Christianity and slavery. In Christianity the God-human relationship is modelled on the master-slave relationship. This is made very explicit in Romans 6:15-23:
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves nto anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, rhave become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members uas slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So...One can sort of see how this nonsense might appeal to someone who actually was a slave to a real slave master in the real tangible world. If everyone is rightfully the chattel of the uber slave-lord in the sky, then being a slave to a human as well perhaps isn't too bad. And beyond that, one can see how closely bound up Christianity and slavery actually are- Christianity doesn't just incidentally support slavery, it makes slavery central to the believer's relationship with the divine. This is truly a vile and degrading religion.
Quote from: Duncle on August 03, 2016, 06:16:11 AM
There is another connection between Christianity and slavery. In Christianity the God-human relationship is modelled on the master-slave relationship. This is made very explicit in Romans 6:15-23....So...One can sort of see how this nonsense might appeal to someone who actually was a slave to a real slave master in the real tangible world. If everyone is rightfully the chattel of the uber slave-lord in the sky, then being a slave to a human as well perhaps isn't too bad. And beyond that, one can see how closely bound up Christianity and slavery actually are- Christianity doesn't just incidentally support slavery, it makes slavery central to the believer's relationship with the divine. This is truly a vile and degrading religion.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Hmm. It works.
Slaves can't quit their jobs when the master pisses them off. Why not wish for a fantasy master that still retains ultimate power and the ability to inflict massive pain and the other attributes of the slave master, but is somehow loving and charitable, and one you can manipulate through the magical power of prayer.
The Christian God concept seems to be built on the Master slave relationship, and it works for white people as well as black people, but black people may have a heritage that makes the God Master even easier to welcome into existence.
It is better to have the Emperor as master than one of the bottom feeders. And G-d is the ultimate Roman Emperor ... "Savior" is one of Augustus' titles after all, and he was worshipped even while he lived, as an incarnate god (in Greco-Roman terms, not Jewish terms).
Being a non-slave, free, means you are able to buy other people. And that is what a White American is, free ... to buy non-White people. That is what the American Revolution was all about. The Romans were more color blind. They even had one emperor who was an Arab ... will be a long time before America is that color-blind. Prayer - yes petition your master ... might prevent a beating.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 30, 2016, 09:54:00 AM
So I recently found the Cult of Dusty channel on YouTube via a collaboration video with The Amazing Atheist and several others. The guy is hilarious and has some really interesting points. Last night, I watched a video of his titled "Black Christians = Uncle Toms." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLwUA3CHumk) I remember this thought passing through my head once. Why would a people adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them, who capture them from their homes and treat them as subhuman property? Why wouldn't black people cast aside the religion that was forced upon them after they were made free? I could understand black Muslims, but Christians?
And one of the funny things I've noticed is that some predominantly black churches still have old white men in leadership positions. So little has changed. White men still use their religion to control black people. How do they never make this connection?
Dusty made some very good points. If Christianity is true, then black people kind of owe their ancestors' slave masters, don't they? If it wasn't for them, these black people would be doomed to eternal Hell fire. Isn't it better to suffer for a little while on earth than to die and go to Hell to suffer forever? So on behalf of my (probably) slave owning ancestors, you're welcome black Christians!
But as a student in psychology, of course I understand. After generations and generations of the religion being forced on them, of course they'd stop questioning it. It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome, except applied to generations rather than individuals. But it's time that black Christians woke up and realize that it makes absolutely no sense for them to continue worshiping the god who was used to defend the slavery and treatment of their ancestors.
I agree. I can't understand why black people subscribe to Christianity and Islam but woman Christians are similar silly. Why Christians women exists? The Bible ( old and new testament ) is very anti woman.
I remember reading once how a black gay porn star I use to enjoy, named Flex Deon Blake:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Flex-Deon_Blake.jpg), who when in porn did some really risque stuff, ended up after finishing his porn career moved onto god. Just always struck me as bizarre why someone who is both black and gay would 'find god' despite being both those things and living in the internet age.
Quote from: Munch on August 15, 2016, 10:23:37 AM
I remember reading once how a black gay porn star I use to enjoy, named Flex Deon Blake:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Flex-Deon_Blake.jpg), who when in porn did some really risque stuff, ended up after finishing his porn career moved onto god. Just always struck me as bizarre why someone who is both black and gay would 'find god' despite being both those things and living in the internet age.
I don't know Flex Dion Blake but it is common for people who are unhappy with their lives to turn to religion. They often find a lot of community support. It is also common replace one addiction with another.
Am I the only one who sees this topic as another face of identity politics? How can a gay black man be Christian? That does not adhere to the stereotype. That does not make sense in terms of his identity and intersectional profile. As a gay, black man he is aligning with a group that does not like the groups we as a society assigned to him. It is almost like, gasp! he is an individual and this theory doesn't accurately predict everyone's behavior!
Extreme individualism and extreme socialism are both ... extreme.
Quote from: leo on August 14, 2016, 09:59:22 PM
I agree. I can't understand why black people subscribe to Christianity and Islam but woman Christians are similar silly. Why Christians women exists? The Bible ( old and new testament ) is very anti woman.
There is no such thing as religion. The white man made that part up to take control of peoples minds.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 17, 2016, 12:44:06 PM
There is no such thing as religion. The white man made that part up to take control of peoples minds.
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So we are all White then? Thought so ... ass holes all around.
Quote from: Baruch on August 17, 2016, 08:05:12 PM
So we are all White then? Thought so ... ass holes all around.
Hey that was someone else's words. They were talking about black Christians. Soooo
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Quote from: g2perk on August 17, 2016, 08:20:51 PM
Hey that was someone else's words. They were talking about black Christians. Soooo
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Quotation marks are your friend. Otherwise everything you post is yours to keep.
Quote from: Baruch on August 17, 2016, 08:26:25 PM
Quotation marks are your friend. Otherwise everything you post is yours to keep.
Ok
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Quote from: g2perk on August 17, 2016, 12:44:06 PM
There is no such thing as religion. The white man made that part up to take control of peoples minds.
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Dude I want some of what you are smoking. Christianity is clearly a religion. The true religion is Chucksterism by the way.
Quote from: leo on August 18, 2016, 08:38:33 AM
Dude I want some of what you are smoking. Christianity is clearly a religion. The true religion is Chucksterism by the way.
Yes there are several diff religions. But religion is what kills you..A relationship with Christ is what is needed.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 08:50:42 AM
Yes there are several diff religions. But religion is what kills you..A relationship with Christ is what is needed.
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I can go along with your take on religion. I phrase it as organized religion kills.
But, as for the christ part, do you mean Jesus? You do realize that christ is not Jesus' last name, but a title. There were many christ's in those days. If you are referring to Jesus of the bible, then you are referring to a fiction, for that particular Jesus did not exist.
Ok. Mike , again google it. Jesus Christ was a real man that walk on this earth. Look for the facts please.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 08:50:42 AM
Yes there are several diff religions. But religion is what kills you..A relationship with Christ is what is needed.
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Dude nobody can have a personal relationship with Jesus because you ( and others claiming a personal relationship with Jesus BS don't know Jesus ) . You claiming a personal relationship with Jesus is like me claiming a personal relationship with Julius Cesar. I don't know Julius Caesar ( he died many years ago ) and you don't know Jesus ( Jesus died over 2000 years ago). If you are claiming to have a personal relationship with Jesus , you need proof like pics or vids or it never happen. Your conversation in your head with Jesus doesn't count. Christianity is a religion. Deal with it.
Are you 100% sure about that. Are you following others. Think Leo outside the box. Stop listening to the world. THIS IS REAL..DUDE.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 09:06:01 AM
Ok. Mike , again google it. Jesus Christ was a real man that walk on this earth. Look for the facts please.
[lmgtfy]Did Jesus exist?[/lmgtfy] The top search results suggest that he didn't. Sorry bud, try again.
In order to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus you have to know about him. You wouldn't know about him without Christianity, which is a religion; a religion that touts a personal relationship with him. If you believe in Jesus you accept the basic concept of religion.
And Jesus of the bible is a fiction. His existence cannot be proven by any objective evidence, so to assume you have a personal relationship with a fictional character is no different than believing in Tinkerbell or Santa Claus.
Children often have personal relationships with imaginary friends. Some grow out of it; others become Christians.
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 09:06:01 AM
Ok. Mike , again google it. Jesus Christ was a real man that walk on this earth. Look for the facts please.
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No. There is no evidence that Jesus existed. The books written about him were written in the second century, long after Jesus and all of his disciples were dead. And the most often cited "historian" cited as evidence, Josephus, was neither alive at Jesus' time (born after his supposed death), nor was he unprejudiced. Christians claim he's an impartial historian, but he was a Christian who wrote that the earth was created in six days. In other words, his words mean nothing. Proof of Jesus' existence is suspiciously absent from any kind of contemporary text, which gives us plenty of reason to think that he was a work of fiction, a plagiarization of tales of other men who came before him.
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 09:39:22 AM
Are you 100% sure about that. Are you following others. Think Leo outside the box. Stop listening to the world. THIS IS REAL..DUDE.
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Dude. Your imaginary conversations with Jesus are in your head and aren't real. You are a grown man believing in imaginary friends . That's pathetic and dangerous. How tall is Jesus ? How he looks? He is talking with you in English or Aramaic ? Dude get real. I would be equally as insane claiming to have a personal relationship with Michael Jackson. I know about Michael Jackson but I never met the guy in person.
Quote from: stromboli on August 18, 2016, 10:36:54 AM
In order to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus you have to know about him. You wouldn't know about him without Christianity, which is a religion; a religion that touts a personal relationship with him. If you believe in Jesus you accept the basic concept of religion.
And Jesus of the bible is a fiction. His existence cannot be proven by any objective evidence, so to assume you have a personal relationship with a fictional character is no different than believing in Tinkerbell or Santa Claus.
Knowing about a person isn't enough to have a personal relationship. You have to meet and interact with the person.
Quote from: leo on August 18, 2016, 02:40:14 PM
Dude. Your imaginary conversations with Jesus are in your head and aren't real. You are a grown man believing in imaginary friends . That's pathetic and dangerous. How tall is Jesus ? How he looks? He is talking with you in English or Aramaic ? Dude get real. I would be equally as insane claiming to have a personal relationship with Michael Jackson. I know about Michael Jackson but I never met the guy in person.
Opinions opinions... If they were only right. So enlighten me. What do you have to look forward to with not believing in anything. Do you live without any hope.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
Opinions opinions... If they were only right. So enlighten me. What do you have to look forward to with not believing in anything. Do you live without any hope.
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No. It is not an opinion. You do not have a relationship with God. You do not interact with him. You talk, he stays silent. That is not a relationship. Unless you actually hear his voice when you pray to him, in which case I'd say you need some medication.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 18, 2016, 05:13:04 PM
No. It is not an opinion. You do not have a relationship with God. You do not interact with him. You talk, he stays silent. That is not a relationship. Unless you actually hear his voice when you pray to him, in which case I'd say you need some medication.
No. No actual voice. But insight and conformation on all my prayers.
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 05:23:28 PM
No. No actual voice. But insight and conformation on all my prayers.
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Both of which can be explained by your own natural thought processes. Funny that. And when this "insight" turns out to be wrong, that's exactly how you explain it, don't you? It was you who thought it. There was no God communicating with you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 18, 2016, 05:30:23 PM
Both of which can be explained by your own natural thought processes. Funny that. And when this "insight" turns out to be wrong, that's exactly how you explain it, don't you? It was you who thought it. There was no God communicating with you.
Are you that smart that you can tell someone what they experience. Maybe not believing is not helping you after all...lol
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Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 03:58:50 PMWhat do you have to look forward to with not believing in anything.
Well I haven't played Dominions 4 for a few patches, so I'm looking forward to a playthrough of EA R'lyeh that's actually winnable. I'm also looking to clear out an old, unused workshop on the farm to use as a VR space in the future.
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 03:58:50 PMDo you live without any hope.
For the moment, yes. I am content with my life and don't feel the need to hope for anything.
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 05:32:23 PM
Are you that smart that you can tell someone what they experience. Maybe not believing is not helping you after all...lol
He's referring to a known psychological phenomenon known as the simulacrum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacrum).
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 05:32:23 PM
Are you that smart that you can tell someone what they experience. Maybe not believing is not helping you after all...lol
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My God. It's like trying to argue with a child.
Do you have any experience of God--ANYTHING--that cannot be explained by something natural?
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 09:06:01 AM
Ok. Mike , again google it. Jesus Christ was a real man that walk on this earth. Look for the facts please.
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Oh, my friend, I have looked at the facts. I think maybe you need to look at some facts---oh, what am I thinking?? You do not like facts. You like beliefs. So, you believe jesus existed and this is nothing anybody can say to change that belief--because this belief of yours is your faith. BTW, I've read about this subject for over 15 years now. But I realize that this does not impress you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 30, 2016, 09:54:00 AM
So I recently found the Cult of Dusty channel on YouTube via a collaboration video with The Amazing Atheist and several others. The guy is hilarious and has some really interesting points. Last night, I watched a video of his titled "Black Christians = Uncle Toms." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLwUA3CHumk) I remember this thought passing through my head once. Why would a people adopt the religion of those who brutally kill and torture them, who capture them from their homes and treat them as subhuman property? Why wouldn't black people cast aside the religion that was forced upon them after they were made free? I could understand black Muslims, but Christians?
And one of the funny things I've noticed is that some predominantly black churches still have old white men in leadership positions. So little has changed. White men still use their religion to control black people. How do they never make this connection?
Dusty made some very good points. If Christianity is true, then black people kind of owe their ancestors' slave masters, don't they? If it wasn't for them, these black people would be doomed to eternal Hell fire. Isn't it better to suffer for a little while on earth than to die and go to Hell to suffer forever? So on behalf of my (probably) slave owning ancestors, you're welcome black Christians!
But as a student in psychology, of course I understand. After generations and generations of the religion being forced on them, of course they'd stop questioning it. It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome, except applied to generations rather than individuals. But it's time that black Christians woke up and realize that it makes absolutely no sense for them to continue worshiping the god who was used to defend the slavery and treatment of their ancestors.
You do realize not all slaves are black?
Also many slaves of the bible were unable to pay back someone and worked their debt off.
You sound like you think Christianity is a white religion. Is that true?
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Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMYou do realize not all slaves are black?
Yes. Unlike the slave owners of recent Western history, ancient slave owners were equal opportunity slavers. But guess what. That does nothing to take away from anything I said. The slave trade in the West was exclusively the trade of black people to white masters.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMAlso many slaves of the bible were unable to pay back someone and worked their debt off.
Thank you Father Kaleb, but like your previous point, this one does nothing to take away from what I've said. Biblical slavery and the Western slave trade were two different things.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMYou sound like you think Christianity is a white religion. Is that true?
Do you think that the black people of Africa were worshiping Jesus? No. White men forced their religion on them, giving no respect to the religious practices of their own people. And for some reason, many years after being given freedom, they continue to practice the religion that their ancestor's masters forced on them. Christianity was just one of many tools of oppression used by white men.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMYou do realize not all slaves are black?
Yes, we know that all slaves throughout history were not black. We were talking about the black ones.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMAlso many slaves of the bible were unable to pay back someone and worked their debt off.
Yes, this was common throughout the world up to classical times and early antiquity. This does not make slavery a moral thing to impose.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on August 31, 2016, 08:56:48 PMYou sound like you think Christianity is a white religion. Is that true?
Christianity, as we know it today, was created by what we would now call white Europeans. So if "white religion" means "invented by white people," then it is a white religion.
Turnabout is fair play when you're being pedantic, bud.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 01, 2016, 12:26:34 AM
Yes, we know that all slaves throughout history were not black. We were talking about the black ones.
Yes, this was common throughout the world up to classical times and early antiquity. This does not make slavery a moral thing to impose.
Christianity, as we know it today, was created by what we would now call white Europeans. So if "white religion" means "invented by white people," then it is a white religion.
Turnabout is fair play when you're being pedantic, bud.
What do you mean Christianity as we know it is a white religion?
How did you come to that conclusion?
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Quote from: Blackleaf on September 01, 2016, 12:22:25 AM
Yes. Unlike the slave owners of recent Western history, ancient slave owners were equal opportunity slavers. But guess what. That does nothing to take away from anything I said. The slave trade in the West was exclusively the trade of black people to white masters.
Thank you Father Kaleb, but like your previous point, this one does nothing to take away from what I've said. Biblical slavery and the Western slave trade were two different things.
Do you think that the black people of Africa were worshiping Jesus? No. White men forced their religion on them, giving no respect to the religious practices of their own people. And for some reason, many years after being given freedom, they continue to practice the religion that their ancestor's masters forced on them. Christianity was just one of many tools of oppression used by white men.
Can you show me proof that Christianity was none existent on the continent of Africa pre white European slavery?
I am a father of two. But I am definitely not a Catholic Father.
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Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 06:40:22 AM
Can you show me proof that Christianity was none existent on the continent of Africa pre white European slavery?
I am a father of two. But I am definitely not a Catholic Father.
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Do you understand the question posed by this thread?
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 06:27:28 AMWhat do you mean Christianity as we know it is a white religion?
The major branches which exist today were founded in Europe.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2016, 09:18:18 AM
Do you understand the question posed by this thread?
First answer my question please.
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Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 01, 2016, 10:49:27 AM
The major branches which exist today were founded in Europe.
Well that would only make sense since must of the white people who are in America came from Europe.
But where did those churches come from?
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Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 12:24:09 PM
First answer my question please.
You have to answer my question first. It's a rule. If you can't follow the rules, I'm going to tell the moderators, and you'll be sorry.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2016, 12:37:45 PM
You have to answer my question first. It's a rule. If you can't follow the rules, I'm going to tell the moderators, and you'll be sorry.
For real lol
I'll answer your question "yes" is my answer. No please answer mine. Haha.
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Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 12:51:31 PM
I'll answer your question "yes"...
What was my question? You will have to refresh my memory.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2016, 01:09:54 PM
What was my question? You will have to refresh my memory.
I'm doing all the work for you.
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Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 06:40:22 AM
Can you show me proof that Christianity was none existent on the continent of Africa pre white European slavery?
I am a father of two. But I am definitely not a Catholic Father.
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Primarily Black slaves were purchased, not caught by White slavers. They were originally caught as part of tribal warfare between Black tribes, some pagan, some Muslim. There were Black Christians over in Ethiopia, Egypt and Sudan ... but they weren't part of this trade.
As for Christianity being White, the majority of Christians came from the Roman Catholic Church ... founded by equal opportunity slavers, the Romans. Constantine was from what is now Yugoslavia ... so he was a Balkan White person, like Tito.
Before Christianity became incorporated as a Roman government agency ... they were pacifist, and sought to redeem slaves out of slavery thru purchase and manumission. Jews did the same, but only for enslaved Jews. This all changed under Constantine. The majority of Christians since 400 CE are the products of Roman Catholicism ... if we ignore some minor Eastern and African churches ... and count the Byzantines as Roman.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 12:26:27 PMWell that would only make sense since must of the white people who are in America came from Europe.
Brilliant deduction, Sherlock.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 12:26:27 PMBut where did those churches come from?
God's asshole They originated, in principle, with the teachings of a Middle Eastern preacher named Paul. In practice, the Roman Church and its descendants have little in common with their eastern ancestor.
Quote from: Kaleb5000 on September 01, 2016, 01:14:34 PM
I'm doing all the work for you.
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No, you are doing none of the work. It seems you are more interested in ambushing people instead of having a dialogue. A person with any manners at all would introduce themselves to the board first. Maybe you should do that.
Many of the people who helped form the christian religion were from Africa. I would imagine all of them had dark skin. How many were black, I don't know; nor care. So, beyond that, what is your point???
Another one???
Not sure what to think of the pigmentation issue. Since our DNA is 99.99% identical, we are all brothers and sisters. Most likely originating from a 200 or so group of Homo Erectus in the Awash valley in eastern Ethiopia around 450,000 years ago. 'Lucy' was the most famous find. From there we spread out into different climates, hence different skin adaptation. Makes the 'color of skin' question redundant, or the US vs. THEM.
Quote from: reasonist on September 09, 2016, 05:26:53 PM
Another one???
Not sure what to think of the pigmentation issue. Since our DNA is 99.99% identical, we are all brothers and sisters. Most likely originating from a 200 or so group of Homo Erectus in the Awash valley in eastern Ethiopia around 450,000 years ago. 'Lucy' was the most famous find. From there we spread out into different climates, hence different skin adaptation. Makes the 'color of skin' question redundant, or the US vs. THEM.
People like to divide into tribes, by physical appearance and language. Skin color is one of the obvious physical appearance differences. We need to quickly separate friend from foe ... without having to discussing the meaning of life first.
I once had Bible study materials that had Abraham as a blond haired Aryan. You would be surprised how many Christians are offended at the notion that Jesus was ME and Jewish.
Quote from: reasonist on September 09, 2016, 05:26:53 PM
Another one???
Not sure what to think of the pigmentation issue. Since our DNA is 99.99% identical, we are all brothers and sisters. Most likely originating from a 200 or so group of Homo Erectus in the Awash valley in eastern Ethiopia around 450,000 years ago. 'Lucy' was the most famous find. From there we spread out into different climates, hence different skin adaptation. Makes the 'color of skin' question redundant, or the US vs. THEM.
Pigmentation isn't the issue. It's history. Black Americans had Christianity forced upon their ancestors who had no choice in the matter. And now that they have a choice, many of them willingly continue to worship the god of their ancestor's oppressors.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 09, 2016, 06:35:55 PM
Pigmentation isn't the issue. It's history. Black Americans had Christianity forced upon their ancestors who had no choice in the matter. And now that they have a choice, many of them willingly continue to worship the god of their ancestor's oppressors.
Only if you agree that the US worshipped Constantine, not Jesus. Jesus never trafficked in slaves, nor did he have naïve visions of people being equal or not having to work for a living. He was a hippie. He said sell all you have and drop out of The System.
All of my ancestors, not just the Jewish ones, were oppressed by someone. So on that basis I should seek revenge on all of you, because all of you are descendants of one or more of those oppressors. Hatfields vs McCoys.
Before they came to the New World, African slaves were oppressed by fellow Africans, of pagan and Muslim faith. If you want them to separate themselves from that legacy as well, then they have to stop being African-Americans ... as well as stop being White Americans.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 09, 2016, 06:35:55 PM
Pigmentation isn't the issue. It's history. Black Americans had Christianity forced upon their ancestors who had no choice in the matter. And now that they have a choice, many of them willingly continue to worship the god of their ancestor's oppressors.
I think that's called 'social conditioning'. I can't remember who said: 'Give me a boy to the age of ten and I give you a man'. That's why religious indoctrination is child abuse.
I was referring to the fact that skin color was a deciding criteria throughout history as to who was the slave and who was the owner. Not too many white slaves were being owned by black people.
Baruch pointed out the tribal/language bond for survival. We should now hope that with the advances in science, in particular genetics and the study of DNA, we have all the answers to make tribal warfare and racism a thing of the past.
Oh, Man. You folks need to read my 3rd great grampa's writings on Christianity and the Native peoples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman
Let's have some slave talk....
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 09, 2016, 06:35:55 PM
Pigmentation isn't the issue. It's history. Black Americans had Christianity forced upon their ancestors who had no choice in the matter. And now that they have a choice, many of them willingly continue to worship the god of their ancestor's oppressors.
It rather lends credibility to the theory that the biggest determinant of one's religion is his environment, not reason, or practicality. I doubt that slave owners permitted their slaves to worship their native Animistic spirits. It would be an open invitation for Satan to prowl your plantation.
As a black guy who used to be Christian, I certainly find this an interesting question.
1. Black people love to worship and preachers are very talented at manipulating emotions but in many cases churches (of all races I presume) take advantage of their following for profit.
2. The Bible is written predominantly about Middle Eastern and North African peoples who wouldn't have been white, so this is a source of comfort for some I presume.
3. The Bible tells tales of suffering and reward, something many black people can relate to.
4. Their slave ancestors converted to Christianity and their descendants didn't believe their slave masters were true Christians and were all going to hell.
5. They were raised Christian, like most other people, and simply don't know any other way. (a.k.a Me) Most of my family for example follow predominantly some form of Christianity and have for quite a while.
For example for the first one, when I was very young and the preacher was "blessing" people my turn came up. In the midst of praise and most importantly my mother watching, the preacher placed his palm on my head and gently pushed "and I felt like "I'd fallen on a bed of clouds with angels holding me", no joke btw. In hindsight I imagine it's easy to be pressure by your environment and people you trust into fooling your sense of reality. We later left this church because all they wanted was money.
Quote from: Absurd Atheist on September 10, 2016, 12:25:57 PM
For example for the first one, when I was very young and the preacher was "blessing" people my turn came up. In the midst of praise and most importantly my mother watching, the preacher placed his palm on my head and gently pushed "and I felt like "I'd fallen on a bed of clouds with angels holding me", no joke btw. In hindsight I imagine it's easy to be pressure by your environment and people you trust into fooling your sense of reality. We later left this church because all they wanted was money.
I also experienced the environmental pressure that convinced me I was having a religious experience once. I can relate to that. I've never been affiliated closely enough to a church as an adult to experience the solicitation for money. I suspect some churches are worse than others about it.
Quote from: g2perk on August 18, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
Opinions opinions... If they were only right. So enlighten me. What do you have to look forward to with not believing in anything. Do you live without any hope.
...
Not beleiving in one of your sky fairies, specifically Jesus Christ, is not not believing in anything. Apparently, you only have hope because of your belief in Jesus. Too bad for you. Please don't project your emotional and psychological dysfunction upon others.
What a strange question. I must admit though; the answers I have read are even stranger.
The Ethiopian orthodox church very well may have been the First Christian church in many ways. It was established way before any African was sold into slavery in America.
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on September 24, 2016, 01:39:55 AMThe Ethiopian orthodox church very well may have been the First Christian church in many ways. It was established way before any African was sold into slavery in America.
And is completely irrelevant.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 24, 2016, 02:25:06 AM
And is completely irrelevant.
What?
No it isn't. Ethiopia is the cradle of life, and in Africa where most Africans or black people came from along with all other people. Being the origin of Christianity as we know it today, the origin of life in general, and the origin of dark complected people; it seams quite relevant to me. Am I missing something?
Peace
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Slavery is the normal condition of human beings. Even masters are slaves ... to their need for slaves. Doesn't really who did it to who ... we all do it, all the time ... we only delude ourselves in believing that we don't ... because we can't look in the mirror and take in the horror that is humanity.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on September 24, 2016, 07:50:20 AM
What?
No it isn't. Ethiopia is the cradle of life, and in Africa where most Africans or black people came from along with all other people. Being the origin of Christianity as we know it today, the origin of life in general, and the origin of dark complected people; it seams quite relevant to me. Am I missing something?
Peace
Yes. You are missing the context. It is irrelevant that the white people who enslaved the blacks from Africa were not the same as the first century Christians. No one is. What matters is that these black slaves were not Christians when they were captured, but their masters were. The masters were not accepting of their slaves own religious practices, which they labeled as "voodoo," and so they forced their Christianity on their slaves. Years later, the black slaves stopped questioning their masters' religion and adopted it as their own. Even now, long after black slavery has ended and their human rights returned to them, they continue to be some of the most devout of Christians, despite the history of how they came to be that way in the first place.
It is also relevant that the white slave masters were properly interpreting the Bible when they justified slavery. It was the anti-slavery Christians who were Biblically wrong. That is the pattern of change in the Christian religion, and it's happening now too with homosexuality. It is clearly condemned by the Bible, but Christians who cherrypick choose not to believe it. Soon enough, it will be taken for granted that "true Christians" are not antigay, even though the Bible clearly is. Just like "true Christians" are against slavery and believe that women are equal to men.
The New Englanders were the original radicals, both in 1775 and in 1861. They were radicals when they left England in the 1600s. They didn't want to share the US with Scots, Irish or Welsh folks ... who mostly settled in the South and in the Caribbean. And John Brown was a psychotic revolutionary ... captured by Robert E Lee while on duty with the US Army.
Not only was Voudon already practiced in W Africa, where many slaves came from, but many slaves from there weren't pagan, they were Muslims. For them it was less of a stretch to become Black Baptists.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 24, 2016, 11:27:05 AM
Yes. You are missing the context. It is irrelevant that the white people who enslaved the blacks from Africa were not the same as the first century Christians. No one is. What matters is that these black slaves were not Christians when they were captured, but their masters were. The masters were not accepting of their slaves own religious practices, which they labeled as "voodoo," and so they forced their Christianity on their slaves. Years later, the black slaves stopped questioning their masters' religion and adopted it as their own. Even now, long after black slavery has ended and their human rights returned to them, they continue to be some of the most devout of Christians, despite the history of how they came to be that way in the first place.
It is also relevant that the white slave masters were properly interpreting the Bible when they justified slavery. It was the anti-slavery Christians who were Biblically wrong. That is the pattern of change in the Christian religion, and it's happening now too with homosexuality. It is clearly condemned by the Bible, but Christians who cherrypick choose not to believe it. Soon enough, it will be taken for granted that "true Christians" are not antigay, even though the Bible clearly is. Just like "true Christians" are against slavery and believe that women are equal to men.
No. That only matters to you for your own motives. What matters is what these people you speak of believe in, not that they were slaves or that their ancestors had a somewhat different belief system. Perhaps they believe in GOD for whatever reason; what is it to you? How does it negatively affect your life? It does not, yet you look to negatively affect theirs by poking holes in what they hold quite dear?
I've got the context, I was just pointing out that the context was a means to an end... The end of the faith of another for no justifiable, logical reason.
Peace
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I think the OP was pointing out the mechanics of religion. It is indoctrinated into people, not reasoned into people. Christianity was forced on slaves just as servitude was forced on them. Blacks may find comfort in Christianity. No one is denying that. But it's ironic that they accept a religion today that played a major role in justifying their forced servitude. You can debate whether or not blacks gain real comfort from such a religion, but the irony will always be there. Although, I understand that Christians won't see the irony.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on September 25, 2016, 01:12:04 AM
No. That only matters to you for your own motives. What matters is what these people you speak of believe in, not that they were slaves or that their ancestors had a somewhat different belief system. Perhaps they believe in GOD for whatever reason; what is it to you? How does it negatively affect your life? It does not, yet you look to negatively affect theirs by poking holes in what they hold quite dear?
I've got the context, I was just pointing out that the context was a means to an end... The end of the faith of another for no justifiable, logical reason.
Peace
In other words, you don't like what I'm saying and want me to be quiet. Funny that you would start with saying "That only matters to you for your own motives," and then not address a single point that I made. Have your skills for debate not developed at all since middle school?
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 25, 2016, 10:58:50 AM
In other words, you don't like what I'm saying and want me to be quiet. Funny that you would start with saying "That only matters to you for your own motives," and then not address a single point that I made. Have your skills for debate not developed at all since middle school?
I'm not here to debate you friend, but if you like, I can.
Peace
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I'm posting this picture so Tapatalk will stop showing the NSFW black model in the thread preview. Please ignore.
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/0799cd84138858e4b83ed3b8c76180a0/tumblr_o7hqw9u8Bo1vrt44eo1_1280.png)
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 25, 2016, 12:32:50 PM
I'm posting this picture so Tapatalk will stop showing the NSFW black model in the thread preview. Please ignore.
(http://65.media.tumblr.com/0799cd84138858e4b83ed3b8c76180a0/tumblr_o7hqw9u8Bo1vrt44eo1_1280.png)
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
It would be cool if I could thumbs up stuff here.
I thought I recognized the name, then saw the sig. I really must start watching Fox News, really just curious if they are actually as unbiased as you.
Peace friend, hope you are well
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Quote from: popsthebuilder on September 25, 2016, 01:00:04 PM
It would be cool if I could thumbs up stuff here.
I thought I recognized the name, then saw the sig. I really must start watching Fox News, really just curious if they are actually as unbiased as you.
Peace friend, hope you are well
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The "Fox News" thing is a joke. They're notorious for basically being the mouthpiece of the Republican Party; but their catchphrase for a long time was "fair and balanced."
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 25, 2016, 01:09:20 PM
The "Fox News" thing is a joke. They're notorious for basically being the mouthpiece of the Republican Party; but their catchphrase for a long time was "fair and balanced."
Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Oh... Regardless you have indeed shown yourself to be unbiased within our bread interactions.
Good to know about Fox News though. So they are corrupt and have an agenda that isn't wholly beneficial to to the mass, but only for a select group?
I knew there was I reason I didn't watch it.
😀
Peace
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Quote from: SGOS on September 25, 2016, 08:35:58 AM
I think the OP was pointing out the mechanics of religion. It is indoctrinated into people, not reasoned into people. Christianity was forced on slaves just as servitude was forced on them. Blacks may find comfort in Christianity. No one is denying that. But it's ironic that they accept a religion today that played a major role in justifying their forced servitude. You can debate whether or not blacks gain real comfort from such a religion, but the irony will always be there. Although, I understand that Christians won't see the irony.
As far as I know, all religions that were created over 200 years ago, supported or tolerated slavery. On that basis they should all be abandoned as anachronistic ... with the exception perhaps of the New Religions like Mormonism and the many trendy Japanese New Age religions. Neo-paganism or Wicca ... are tied to periods of history prior to anything else, so I don't see that they are "liberty" supporting either.
So Black-Muslims won't see the irony of returning to a somewhat older enslavement than the New World offered. And African paganism doesn't offer hope either. Since Mormons and Japanese are uncomfortable with Black folk ... they don't have much of an open door their either. So I guess they will just have to take up atheism with Prof Neil deGrasse Tyson ;-) If the professor will also come out against the wage and debt enslavement of capitalism, I am sure he can get an Order of Lenin too.
Well, almost everyone has been slaved to some other group at some time. But only for Blacks was it because of skin color and remained so for so long. My ancestors were enslaved Anglo-saxon serfs to the conquoring Normans. But once they could get away, no one could tell them apart from the free locals. It wasn't like that for Blacks in the US.