Atheistforums.com

If I'm going to need popcorn, I'd rather not have to drag it around the forum.

This is a topic that is frighteningly frequent on this forum, of late. Let's toss all the issues into a mixing bowl and see what comes out!

Questions to Consider

• Do the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?
• Is All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?
• Do the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?
• What is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?
• Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?

If I think of anymore relevant questions, I'll update this post.

QuoteDo the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?

Yes in that the actions of some BLM members conflict with their stated goals. As a whole, I have seen (and been involved in) far more good with BLM than bad; charity work, peaceful protest and drawing attention to a broken system. But like any group there are bad seeds... but just like we cant judge all (insert group here) by their bad seeds that make up a condemned minority by the majority, you cant judge BLM for the people who take their anger too far.

QuoteIs All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?

I think it's both an actual movement for a few bigots, and just something that people who haven't actually thought it through say because they don't realise how irrelevant it is.

QuoteDo the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?

If it was isolated cases that were immediately punished, no I don't think that would be fair. As it stands the average police department will cover it's own ass (as any group normally would) before admitting they did something wrong. This is "okay" when it's small things like minor corruption or not following protocol all the time... but when it is resulting in way too many minorities (and that includes lower-class whites, it's not just a race thing) being arrested and murdered with no repercussion... it hurts their image, yes.

Tell me one other business that could get away with it, even any other government branch, that blatantly does the exact opposite of what they are suppose to do (protect and serve) and faces little repercussion. Even the beloved military that Americans put above nearly anything else has had it's image ruined by it's murder of civilians.

If the military brand can be hurt by the actions of too many bad seeds left unpunished, then I think it's completely fair to judge the judicial system for too many bad seeds left unpunished as well.

QuoteWhat is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?

I could probably write a 100+ page essay to this, but to make it into a few short points...

-First and foremost education and socio-economic situations of African Americans, Hispanics and "White-Trash" whites needs to be seriously addressed. The majority of people murdered by police come from low-income situations for a variety of reasons; more confrontational, forced to live in areas with higher violence so police are on higher alert, and a whole slew of other issues. If this was addressed instead of swept under the rug then I think we would see the biggest drop in police brutality out of all the solutions.

-Second, follow the example of the rest of the civilized world and take the guns out of our officer's hands and given to only specialized units and officers. The main argument I see is that everyone has a gun, so a cop must to... and yet only 42 officers were killed by guns, and that number is decreasing every year. 42 officers were killed by guns vs 1000s of minorities killed by officers. And more officers were killed in traffic accidents (50-something) than guns.

Guns only escalate the situation; when there is a guy yelling at you with a gun, that is not going to deescalate the situation. When the cop pulls his gun from the very beginning without even knowing the situation, that is not going to deescalate the encounter. When cops are shooting people with their hands up, with their backs turned... this is not deescalating the situation.

-Third, something has to be done about the culture within the police departments that believes excessive force is anything other than an absolute last resort. This is one that, frankly, the average person has no real control over other than not accepting it like large amounts of people do.

The 'epidemic' of police killing black people on the basis of racism cannot be shown to exist. That is; the so-called 'epidemic' doesn't exist objectively - it exists as hysteria only.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 25, 2016, 08:43:39 AM
The 'epidemic' of police killing black people on the basis of racism cannot be shown to exist. That is; the so-called 'epidemic' doesn't exist objectively - it exists as hysteria only.

According to an article published by the BBC two days ago (or so), the period from 1970 to 1980 was the highest rate of officer deaths by shooting.  They averaged 115 per year; or about 24 per 100,000 officers.  The last ten years has seen that average drop to 49 per year; or about 7.5 per 100,000 officers.  So, officers are less likely to be shot now then back in the 70's.  We know this because the FBI keeps very solid records of these kinds of things. 

But you are correct that we do not know if the shootings of black people have gone up or down--or if they have gone up or down for any group.  Why?  Because the FBI does not keep that record, nor are the various police departments required to keep those records.  We don't know if the rate has gone up down or stayed the same compared to any other period.  But to say that it exists as hysteria only is only a guess and nothing more.  I'd guess the real problem is that there is no justice for the black families that have lost members to a cop killing.  No justice in that nobody is held accountable for the shooting.  It appears to this old white guy that there is an open hunting season on blacks with the cop shooters getting off.  Which is simply a reminder that in this area for blacks it is business as usual.  Blacks have always been killed at a higher rate and that has been accepted as 'that is just the way it is'.  You were black and justice is different for you than if you were white.  That is simply a fact easily established by reading any number of history books.  Or by living through some of these incidents.  I was made aware of it as a child who moved to Alabama while the 'White' and 'Colored' signs were littered everywhere.  Made me aware of this racist shit from an early age.   I went to an all-white school via bus that passed by the one room wooden shack with a mud /dirt playground, which was deemed as separate but equal.  Alabama taught me early about the different social classes in this country.

Quote from: Mike Cl on July 25, 2016, 09:03:43 AMBlacks have always been killed at a higher rate

They have not and are not.

Quoteand that has been accepted as 'that is just the way it is'. 

It's not, "just the way it is." Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 25, 2016, 09:19:23 AMBlacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America

Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 25, 2016, 09:50:26 AM
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes?

Yes and yes, why do they have a homicide rate 6-7 times higher than white people?

I like this black cop Sheriff Clarke - www.twitter.com/SheriffClarke

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 25, 2016, 09:50:26 AM
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.

It's a rigged system based on racial bias. Arrests are much higher as are convictions, but the amount of actual crime doesn't measure up. Back in the 90s i was picking up a friend to go to work,  nothing really going on, but police swept in and arrested everyone who was outside that day on "suspicion of drug activities".  From where I saw it everyone regardless whether they were just going to the store, mowing grass, whatever was arrested, myself included. Almost everyone was released later that day and had to find their way home from jail, but to say arrest equals crime is simply not true..Conviction and punishment also do not always equal actual crime.
In this country we have this notion you're innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't really work that way. You're guilty once a cop gives you a dirty look.  Try going to jail for anything you're not guilty of..Trust me. You're guilty and treated as such from the moment the cop suspects you until you are released and all records of your arrest expunged which rarely happens. If you're arrested for ANYTHING and found not guilty there will be a paper trail of the arrest and it doesn't go away.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 25, 2016, 09:19:23 AM


It's not, "just the way it is." Blacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.

You are free to think as you will.  Or feel as you feel.  I don't really feel up to engaging a bigot right now. 

QuoteThey have not and are not.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-police-shootings-race-20160711-story.html

QuoteWhite people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times as great as the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation's population."

And, when considering shootings confined within a single race, a black person shot and killed by police is more likely to have been unarmed than a white person. About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.

The numbers don't lie, I'm afraid.

QuoteBlacks commit crime at a massively higher rate than do other races in America, therefore they are killed at a higher rate, per capita, relative to other races.

That contradicts what you just said above, but ignoring that...

That doesn't change the fact that blacks are disproportionately shot while unarmed, while not committing a crime and are incarcerated as staggeringly higher rates for the same crimes as whites. If these things were not in the equation then you would have a point, but since the entire system targets innocent African Americans at higher rates and kills them at higher rates than anyone else then the only reasonable conclusion is that there is something working inherently wrong with the system.

QuoteYes and yes, why do they have a homicide rate 6-7 times higher than white people?

I'll respond to this as a response to Hi.; Yes, they have a higher homicide and crime rate because of socio-economic conditions. If you take whites ("white-trash" and hispanics (vario) (as well as some Asian communities) living in the same conditions as the average African American then you see nearly identical crime rates and issues plaguing the community.

What is important to look at is WHY are these communities lower socio-economic, and more often than not these are issues that cannot be addressed by the African American community. For one the education system is rigged so that the schools that can pay the most in taxes (affluent communities) receive the best education and those that cant (low-to-lower middle class schools) provide subpar education and less community resources. Education is directly correlated to upward economic and socio-political mobility, so the system is inherently rigged where the lower classes are at an extreme disadvantage.

Another issue is that society "accepts" that these people are different and has no desire to integrate with them, which leads to more insular cultures. This is doubly problematic due to the fact that American media basically portrays blacks as one of two things; a gangster-thug or an athlete. When you have a school system that is rigged to keep you from moving up and a media that tells you you can either be a thug or an athlete, as well as being ostracized and prejudiced against because of where you came from, it is simply not surprising that large numbers of African Americans from low socio-economic areas continue to live in low socio-economic life styles.

I'll say this; I come from a VERY low socio-economic town... you have two career choices; work in the oil fields or a gas station, or sell drugs. The school I went to, my class had about 200 students when I was a freshmen and about 25 graduated four years later. The majority of students were "white trash", and the crime rate in my town is very high. I have known several people killed in drug violence, I know only about 9 other people in my class who went to college (and all but two of them came from rich families), and I lived in the type of town where I had the "privilege" of watching an African American get dragged down Main Street tied to the back of a pickup.

I don't think the fact that they are "white trash", that the colour of the skin, made these people violent or racist anymore than I think the colour of African American's skin made them "the way they are". It's all a matter of where you were raised, what the socio-economic status of your environment is and how many tools you are provided to succeed. To try to address this problem in a few sentences of, "Meh, blacks are just violent!" and posting one or two sets of numbers ignores an absolutely mind-boggling amount of factors that go into the social conditions of any group, African or otherwise.

QuoteI like this black cop Sheriff Clarke ...

I'm sorry?

Let's take some "brilliant" posts from his twitter...

QuoteFifty years of lies by Democrats caused Blacks to be blinded about their political roots. Douglas knew better.

Douglas was a Republican before the Republicans became Democrats and the Democrats became Republicans... so this one is just cringe.



Implying that cops HAVE to engage in a situation aggressively, which is the exact opposite of what they are trained to do.

Calls Obama the most cop-hating prez, even though it's the Republican party that fucks over cops left and right.

QuoteThe LAST hurdle for blacks to clear for equality is to free their minds of the poisonous, debilitating brainwashing message of the DemoRats.

I just don't even. This guy is an absolute moron.

That literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrong, not what you want to

Quote from: Shiranu on July 25, 2016, 03:46:41 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-police-shootings-race-20160711-story.html

The numbers don't lie, I'm afraid.

That literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrote - not what you want to hear.

QuoteThat doesn't change the fact that blacks are disproportionately shot while unarmed, while not committing a crime

Citation needed.

Quoteand are incarcerated as staggeringly higher rates for the same crimes as whites

Actually, once every factor is controlled for, the number is almost parallel.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 25, 2016, 09:50:26 AM
Do they commit more crimes, or are they convicted of more crimes? And do we have any statistics on their rate of false convictions compared to other colors?

I'll add this to the OP.

We really don't have a clue how many people have been falsely convicted. There is some data to look at though. The numbers tell us that blacks are convicted of crimes at a rate 5 to 6 times the rate for whites. In 2008 it was something like 2,200 per 100,000 for blacks compared to about 400 per 100,000 for whites.

According one group 63% of the exonerations for false convictions were black people. 30% were white people. So the data we have suggests blacks are falsely convicted a little more than twice as often as white people.

So based on the data that says blacks are convicted 5 to 6 times as often, and falsely convicted twice as often would lead me to conclude that the crime rate is higher for blacks than it is for whites.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 25, 2016, 06:49:02 PM
Actually, once every factor is controlled for, the number is almost parallel.

As you say... Citation required.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on July 25, 2016, 07:14:51 PMSo based on the data that says blacks are convicted 5 to 6 times as often, and falsely convicted twice as often would lead me to conclude that the crime rate is higher for blacks than it is for whites.

It certainly leads to that suggestion, but I'd question if a solid conclusion can be reached here. Given this country's history with blacks, the data would need to somehow account for the part prejudice plays in jurors determining "reasonable doubt" before I'd be willing to say anything more decisive than, "The data suggests X, Y, and Z."

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 25, 2016, 07:45:51 PM
It certainly leads to that suggestion, but I'd question if a solid conclusion can be reached here. Given this country's history with blacks, the data would need to somehow account for the part prejudice plays in jurors determining "reasonable doubt" before I'd be willing to say anything more decisive than, "The data suggests X, Y, and Z."

While I have doubts about the firm numbers I think you can make a solid conclusion that crime rates are higher for blacks than they are for whites based purely on the conviction rates. The black crime rate would still be higher even if 3 out of 4 convictions of black people are false and all convictions of white people are true. While I have very little faith in the system these days there is absolutely nothing to suggest that more than 3 out of 4 convictions of black people are in error.

Gilgamesh, I haven't read all of your posts, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are convinced that black people are by in large criminals mostly deserving of whatever shit police and the courts throw at them and commit crimes at a far higher rate than anyone else. In other words you're naive at best and/or a bigot, but let me tell you what did happen in a courtroom I was in.  I was charged with driving with no drivers license and I was guilty. I won't dispute that.
I sat talking about our cases with a young black man, a few years younger than myself. This was before the judge entered the courtroom. We had both been charged with the same crime, no drivers license. I asked how many times he'd been arrested for driving with no license. He told me it was his first offense and his first arrest so I falsely told him he would likely be fined and get to go home at the end of the day. That had been my own experience as it was not my first time. In fact I have a pretty long history of driving with no license. By that time I would have to guess that I'd been arrested for it about 4 or five times in the past.
Finally court got underway and it was my turn to go in front of the judge and sure enough I was fined and sent on my way home, but I had to wait till after court was over to sign paperwork, etc.
Meanwhile the young man I had been speaking with went in front of the judge and without asking him any questions he was sentenced to 90 days in jail on the spot and taken in handcuffs immediately to the cells behind the court.  Same charge, less arrest record, but because he was black he got 90 days, 3 months in jail while I got to go home.
I have to admit that I was relieved, but at the same time I was outraged. I could have and should have raised issue with the judge, but I didn't and to this day I'm ashamed that I said nothing. But if you think that the system is anywhere near fair and courts treat white and black people the same you are sadly mistaken. Black people are given much longer sentences for almost all crime and often they have committed no crime at all and still get convicted and sent to jail and prison. I have many black friends and nearly all of them have been in prison at one time or another and every single one of the many black friends I have known in my life have had family members sent to prison. I can't think of a single black person I know who doesn't have at least one family member who has been to prison. Those are facts, not some made up liberal nonsense.
I've been in jail and watched guards mercilessly beat black men for no apparent reason.  It's not something just made up to make it sound like black people are given the raw deal by police and the courts and guards in jail and prison. They are given a raw deal.

QuoteThat literally proves what I said, you idiot. Go read my post again, but this time read what I wrote - not what you want to hear.

QuoteMike CI - "Blacks have always been killed at a higher rate."

You - "They have not and are not."

I'm not entirely sure how you claiming they are not killed at a higher rate is in agreement with the numbers that show they are killed at a higher rate. But by all means, inform me how that's not what you actually meant.

QuoteCitation needed.

Fair enough, I should not have said "...while committing a crime.", which is an unnecessary remark.

I should have left it at, "Blacks are shot at a disproportionately higher rate (5 times as many) while unarmed."

If they are unarmed then they have zero reason to be shot, period. We are one of the only "civilized" county in the world who thinks giving every police officer a gun is acceptable, and when unarmed civilians are being murdered then that is an issue (regardless of race). Guns should be the absolute last resort, not the first choice as it stands. I say this both as an American who has seen it happen too often and as someone who has had an officer approach me with his hand on gun more than once (and mind you I am a "white" [biracial, white and latin] American in a family car with zero reason to be approached that way). When someone is walking towards you with his hand on a pistol, it's intimidating... uniform or not, because you know one miscommunication and you could be lying on the street in a pool of your own blood. That is not how law enforcement is suppose to work, and it shows that the cops are not interested in doing their job (which is to deescalate situations and maintain order).

Also, forgot on solutions...

Another great thing that could be done is improve and expand police-community interactions and events so that police seem part of the community rather than a separate entity from normal society. Get involved in charity work, activities with the children, stuff like that and make their positive presence in the community noticed.

This is one major trend I have seen many minority neighbourhood members say, and every time I have seen a video of police officers doing this the response always seems to be within the community, "It really gave me a new outlook on officers, made them seem more human and more a part of the community.".

When the police and the community can establish a sense of trust and comradery, a lot of the aggression police officers receive from minorities will be alleviated because they are no longer "the enemy". Unlike what that textbook definition of an Uncle Tom, Sheriff Clarke, says... treating minorities like the enemy and escalating the situation is not going to make the situation better.

Man, the more I think about that guy... he is a terrible human being, a terrible African American and a terrible police officer. I really cant believe he is the best African American the Republican party can find to speak... but I guess the actually intelligent and decent human beings wouldn't give a speech at the RNC anyways.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 25, 2016, 09:49:33 PM
Gilgamesh, I haven't read all of your posts, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are convinced that black people are by in large criminals mostly deserving of whatever shit police and the courts throw at them and commit crimes at a far higher rate than anyone else.

Your assumption is incorrect. I think those things about criminals. It just so happens black people can be criminals.

As for the rest: I don't care about your conjecture or anecdotes. I care about facts.

@ShiranuFC

QuoteI'm not entirely sure how you claiming they are not killed at a higher rate is in agreement with the numbers that show they are killed at a higher rate. But by all means, inform me how that's not what you actually meant.

That's not what the numbers show. They show the opposite of that.

On the numbers showing that African Americans are killed at a higher rate...

Quote"That's not what the numbers show. They show the opposite of that."

I'll post said numbers again so that you might read them this time.

QuoteAs The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.

But because the white population is approximately five times as great as the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.

Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation's population."

About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.

Yes, the numbers that show blacks are murdered at a higher rate proportionally shows that blacks aren't murdered at a higher rate proportionately.

Your going to have to come up with a little bit better of argument than, "nuh uh!".

Quote from: Shiranu on July 25, 2016, 11:54:11 PM

Yes, the numbers that show blacks are murdered at a higher rate proportionally shows that blacks aren't murdered at a higher rate proportionately.

You are disingenuous. You included 'proportionally' in your last post because you became aware of your error. Own it at least, coward. White people are killed at a high rate than blacks in America. Per capita the opposite is true. Both of these facts I have purported myself, in this thread, already.

QuoteYou are disingenuous.

Oh? So bringing up that more whites are, in total (not at the same rate, mind you... in total), killed is not a disingenuous argument that serves only one purpose; to distract from what people actually are discussing, which is that blacks are killed at a higher rate than whites?

QuoteYou included 'proportionally' in your last post because you became aware of your error. 

I added it because you aren't grasping that proportionately is what is relevant. Yes, more whites are killed because they make up about 62% more of the population; I don't think there is a single person here who wouldn't expect that. The issue is they are killed at a higher rate than whites... that if you are black, your rate of being murdered is significantly higher than if you are white.

If your going to talk shit, at least be on the same page as everyone else. All you are doing is making an ass out of yourself because you a chapter behind what everyone else is talking about. We know whites are killed more often (barely). That's why we said the rates of blacks murdered is higher than the rate of whites murdered.

You caught up yet? Good.


And if I am wrong, go ahead and ask everyone or everyone... correct me. Perhaps I was dead wrong, and everyone here is talking about total kills rather than rates killed. I just highly doubt it, because I figure everyone here is smart enough to realise why rates are more important than total number killed.

QuoteWhite people are killed at a high rate than blacks in America.

If you are talking total population, which no one here but you is. You are arguing against a position that none of us here hold, and then throwing a hissy fit that no one is arguing against it.

QuoteOwn it at least, coward.

Soon as you admit you were too busy throwing a hissy fit to realise you were yelling at arguments no one was making, I'll give that a thought.

Also, calling someone a coward on an anonymous forum? I think that insult goes a little something like this...

Quote from: Shiranu on July 26, 2016, 03:00:52 AM
I added it because you aren't grasping that proportionately is what is relevant. Yes, more whites are killed because they make up about 62% more of the population; I don't think there is a single person here who wouldn't expect that. The issue is they are killed at a higher rate than whites... that if you are black, your rate of being murdered is significantly higher than if you are white.

Look up the definition of rate. Your misunderstanding of the term is where your folly lies. Whites are, in fact, killed at a higher rate than blacks. If you choose to double down after this, I will no longer respond to you in this thread.

Just bookmarking this for later.


:)

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 26, 2016, 08:41:34 AM
Look up the definition of rate. Your misunderstanding of the term is where your folly lies. Whites are, in fact, killed at a higher rate than blacks. If you choose to double down after this, I will no longer respond to you in this thread.

There is nothing wrong with the way Shiranu is using the term rate. It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics.

Quoterate
(Statistics) statistics a measure of the frequency of occurrence of a given event, such as births and deaths, usually expressed as the number of times the event occurs for every thousand of the total population considered

The rate per is a good method of comparing risk among different subsets. The statement, "The data says that black men are at  a higher risk of incarceration than white men because they are incarcerated at a higher rate." is true and includes a correct usage of the word rate.

Now let's look at the raw numbers for incarceration in the US by race. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf) on December 31, 2013 there were 505,600 whites (454,100 male / 51,500 female) in state and federal prisons. There were 549,100 blacks (526,000 males / 23,100 females) in the same prisons. Please note there are more blacks in US prisons than there are whites so even by your limited definition of the term rate which limits it to raw numbers blacks are incarcerated in the US at a higher rate than whites are.

A few days ago I read an article in the BBC.  It indicated that the number of cops killed in the 70's were about 115 per year, according to the FBI count.  The last ten years had the number of about 50 per year.  The article also noted that the number of police has risen quite a bit, so a truer measure is per 100,000 police; in the 70's it was almost 25 and for the last ten years it was 7.5.  I'd say that is a substantial drop in police shot fatally while on duty. 

The article also indicated that it is impossible to know how many civilians died by being shot by the police since that stat is not kept by any agency--and the police depts. are not required to do so.  So, it is impossible to know whether or not blacks are being killed at a higher rate now or some earlier time.  I also think that people are more upset about the fact that is seems that most of the police who have shot and killed blacks lately are not held accountable; they all get off.  There does not seem to be justice; or at least, there are more than one justice system in operation. 

For your perusal

https://infogr.am/Black-34991937313

AS a white former drug addict I can say it's been my experience that black people are indeed treated harsher and with more discrimination. And as a white person who lived among impoverished blacks I can certainly see drastic inequities in a range of areas.

Black people are definitely given a raw deal in this country. This has been what I have personally witnessed, numbers do not matter since we can only speculate about them.

I will say that crime in the low class impoverished areas is a way of life for many. The problem is much more complex than just simple straight out racism.

Lack of education and opportunities is a major problem for inner city children. My own children were floundering in the city schools. Take them out of that environment and surprise surprise their grades went up. I also could have just about cried when I saw how many people were not prepared for a community college that even offers many support programs. This problem is deep. It does need addressing. And saying that the black community alone is responsible for changing it is ridiculous. They are unable to change anything or believe me most of them would! It's going to take some serious intervention!!! Something that rich white people are simply not real interested in doing. And middle class whether interested or not are probably not able to do it.

Don't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic. But their victims are predominantly black and Hispanic. As I mentioned previously one of my instructors in college grew up in a Hispanic gang environment in So Cal. He was a gang member who was mentored by a white high school teacher that saw potential in him and helped him escape his environment. The environment didn't go away, he did. There is a gang mentality among both cultures. You people don't hear local Hispanic music, not the stuff on the radio. Much of it centers around gang culture.

Much of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots. As long as there is an "us versus them" attitude across the board, as long as any percentage of Blacks or Hispanics embrace gang culture, as long as police forces recruit from middle class white sources primarily and as long as there is racial attitudes, the problems will not go away.

What Martin Luther King did was take a page out of Gandhi. somebody needs to read some MLK and start to use his methods. Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.

QuoteDon't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic.

I would reckon that's because whites don't live in the ghetto, but when they did the same accusations were thrown; that it was because they were Italian, Russian (Eastern European) or Irish and came from "violent, alcoholic, criminal cultures" that caused them to be so (not implying that is the argument you are making, rather just the one that is brought up alot).

Now it's more the trailer park where you will find white gangsters. There, or on Wall and K Street.

QuoteMuch of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots.

This is a symptom of the problem though. People make art based on what they have lived. While it contributes to the idolization of this culture, I would say the bigger issue is that people live in conditions where they can relate to this music in the first place... which a huge part of that exists outside of their control. To me this focusing on "black culture" (which is manufactured and distributed largely by white C.E.O.s, producers and label companies) as violent is a distraction from the actual issue.

And hip hop and rap do have their origins in the ghetto, but I think that is more important than you seem to make it out to be; hip hop and rap were originally very positive and a means of expressing the struggle of urban life. It wasn't until some of the West Coast gangster rap was made popular and the East Coast joined the trend that rap really had any connotations with gangs and violence.

And a huge amount of rap and hip hop still hold true to the original ideals of the music, it's just not what makes it onto the radio. Kendrick Lamar, Logic, Tupac, J. Cole, Blu & Exile, Common, Immortal Technique, Talib Kweli... I could go on, but you get the point... these are all very popular and famous artists who rap and sing about the problems within the community. I would say the majority of rap and hip hop are actually very positive songs, you just have to listen to more than the local rap channel to hear it.

Quote...Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.

Um... Ghandi and MLK both famously boycotted businesses and shut down parts of town to achieve their goals. That was kinda Ghandi's entire thing.

Regardless of why there is more black and hispanic gang crime... The fact remains that there is a lot of gang related crime in the hispanic and black community and violent crimes are proportionately larger in the impoverished section of their culture, which unfortunately takes up a large portion of their populous. It's a shame that because of the harsh living circumstances and poverty they live in, they feel there is no other way to live other than being involved in gangs, but it doesn't change the fact that it does tend to happen. Likewise, while there are shitty cops that abuse their power, there are many cops that need to shoot to kill before the armed (possibly armed) suspect shoots/strikes first.

I will post this nice, neat info-graphic again for you to look at, hopefully without an overly emotional veil.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

The number of whites killed by police are 494, the number of black people is 258

Proportionately, blacks have been killed more than whites, but also proportionately, they commit more violent crime and gang crime.

Out of both of those demographics, both of the numbers include unarmed killings, which range from 30-about 40.

I guess the armed suspects that were killed should not have been shot by the police?

I'm not defending shitty cops, but saying that the problem is solely cops, is putting an emotional and irrational blinder over your eyes. The issue is complex. Too complex to just pin it on crime in the impoverished black communities and ALSO too complex to pin it on the cops that have to respond to the crime in those communities and have to be on guard when they are on post in those communities.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 24, 2016, 11:14:31 PM

• Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?

Yes, blacks commit more crimes than other races/ethnic groups in America, which lead to greater convictions.  I suspect that false arrests and convictions are higher among blacks because of bias formed due to the actual higher crime rate.  Here's something from the FBI that shows the higher crime rate - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Blacks make up about 13% of the US population and are responsible for 28% of the crime.  Half of all homicides are committed by that 13% every year in the US.  Typically more than whites and non-black Hispanics combined for well over 30 years.  Check data from the FBI, DOJ, Local PD (especially in large cities) and see for yourself. 

So as far as I can see, the premise for BLM is false since about 25% of people killed by police are black while 28% of crime is committed by blacks.  Again, close to 50% of all homicides, for decades, have been committed by blacks.

There are countless ideas and differing opinions on why blacks commit more crime, but the fact remains that blacks do in fact commit more crime.

Saying that, I think we need to keep all of this in perspective.  The vast majority of black Americans are good, honest, law abiding people, just as the vast majority of police are good people who do their best to be fair and just. 

I'm not blaming shitty cops. I'm just saying this is a very complex matter and just to come in and say well the black hispanic population need to change it on their own is ridiculous. Yes they need to participate in the change or it can never happen. But if some one doesn't intervene on their behalf and start showing an actual effort to change on both sides then we will never have change. Children and families need a way that they can move away from the city environment so they CAN get away from so called "thug" life. There are so many factors that go into this issue it's not just a solely purely racism problem all though that is a component of it. 

Yes there are cases where a person has helped another one escape gangs for what ever reason. We need more people like that, willing to stick their neck out and spend hard work and time helping one individual at a time. Unfortunately that is a very tall order and many people while, well meaning and wanting to help out are unable to do so. There's no one answer or straightforward solution. But we can't just shrug our shoulders and say oh well that's just the way it is. Pressure needs to be put on some one who CAN help. Not saying I know who that is rather it's more likely to be a group effort than any one entity.

We can't advance as a society or even as a human race as long as we throw our hands up and give up. It only benefits every one to help clean up the majority of the problems. If we can clean up our own countries act then maybe we can spread and lend a helping hand to other nations. Until then we should focus mostly on our own until poverty is abolished.

Now see, I'd actually partially blame shitty cops.

The unfortunate thing is, that even though both sides, the cops and the minority communities, need to work to fix the issue, a lot of the work is going to need to come from the minority communities first. The gangs and the violence and crime needs to subside first. The cops need to stop having shitty cops, but there will always be accidental deaths, even with good cops, if the crime rate doesn't decrease. There will be accidental deaths after as well, but not as much, obviously. Unfortunately it's on the black community to lower the crime rate, so cops aren't dispatched to them as much. It does need to come from both sides, but the only thing the cops can control is their shitty cops. The good cops will still make mistakes. They're only human, doing extraordinary duties and like all people, they have their slip ups.


One of the reasons I find the #blacklivesmatter movement to be so... incorrect (is that the right word?... idk) is that one of the biggest reason for killings of black people is black people. A lot of the cops are responding to crime. The many videos we've seen in these last couple years or so of police brutality, while it is a lot of videos, it's just a small fraction of the amount of police dispatches to these communities. Meanwhile, the #blacklivesmatter crowd goes on parade chanting a call to action for killing cops? It turned toxic way too quick, which is another reason this movement needs to be put to rest. Like Jack cited, it's a very disproportionate amount of crime in the black community compared to the crime rate as a whole. Maybe before getting upset about cops being so alert in bad areas, we need to work on helping the bad areas get better. Cops only responding to the crime...

http://www.cnn.com/videos/justice/2015/02/02/police-training-simulation-santana-orig.cnn/video/playlists/philadelphia-police-officer-shooting/

OH no don't miss understand I don't support black lives matter. I'm just explaining why this has become such a problem.

I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis. For some one to come in and say well you are on your own you need to change it your self is a bit much. Do they need to put some effort into changing it absolutely. But they can't do it on their own. They feel overwhelmed as this is not a simple just change your self problem. This is a we need to root out the real problem at the very core of why black crime rates are so much higher than any other culture's crime rates. But it's not a one part problem.

Do I think killing people is a solution to this problem, no. Killing fosters hatred and we definitely need less hatred and animosity between the black and white communities.

Quote from: doorknob on July 27, 2016, 04:19:09 PM
OH no don't miss understand I don't support black lives matter. I'm just explaining why this has become such a problem.

I know. I read your post and was responding to the shitty cop part. The rest was for the thread in general.

Quote
I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis. For some one to come in and say well you are on your own you need to change it your self is a bit much. Do they need to put some effort into changing it absolutely. But they can't do it on their own. They feel overwhelmed as this is not a simple just change your self problem. This is a we need to root out the real problem at the very core of why black crime rates are so much higher than any other culture's crime rates. But it's not a one part problem.

Yes.
I agree. Especially the part in bold.

The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

Quote from: doorknob on July 27, 2016, 04:19:09 PM
I'm sympathetic to the black and Hispanic communities because I've seen what they face on a day to day basis.

Oh? You do? ::blank sarcastic stare:: Because you ARE one of those, obviously, you must be, or else you wouldn't post these condescending words.

Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

REGGIE! Post more.

Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.  I joined these forums when you ran the show and have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree with you on this one. 

Quote from: Jack89 on July 30, 2016, 12:59:10 AM
Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.

Just an idea, here, but how about instead we actually do look at demographics. Your own idea! All respect, but I can send my white (okay, more pink) kids out into the world and only get to be a scared Mom should someone find out my son is gay.

Not black, brown, or yellow.

So, what do you know of skin tone unless a person of said tone tells you what they have experienced? That's why we have the BLM movement at all. Because you don't know until somebody speaks up.

I can say that if I got pulled over for a faulty blinker (which I had for almost a year and never ever even got pulled over for -- through every state from south FL to VT), I wouldn't have been held in jail for 3 days for that even at my bitchiest, let alone died there, my kids would not be dead for playing with a toy gun in a park, etc, etc. Talk about dishonest....

As a lilly white old man, I would think anyone who presented me with statistics that showed blacks people were not still getting fucked left and right would be feeding me twisted and pieced together bullshit stats. All one has to do is listen to what people still say about blacks. Even now. I don't need a report to tell me that 60% of white people are still racist. Fuck man, I live among them and hear it everyday.

Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

Good one.

The main idea has been repeated in many forms in the forum since you have left, but as realising that there is no magic dady in the sky doesn't automatically translate into being 'freethinkers' or taking issues and sources from different angles; acting like sceptics, the general outlook on the issue -not just this one- is divided by the mainstream bullshit.

The forum has turning around in circles of white het male victimhood and how anything related to other activist groups is just bullshit related to 'regressive left' and 'liberal'  propaganda produced against this particular group. Basically a group complaining political correctness right and left and how everybody is offended by this and that but not being able to stand any bit of criticism thrown their way.

And that felt like telling it all about to long time absent dad. :P

Quote from: infidelguy on July 29, 2016, 03:27:16 PM
The statistical data does reveal a huge disparity between whites and minorities with regard to the rate of deaths at the hands of police, incarcerations, arrests and confrontations with police. A number of conservative Republicans have put data out there mostly reflecting numerical data from particular cities and communities without taking into account actual population ratios (as has already been discussed). Federal data as well has been cherry-picked by some in apparently some attempt to pretend that the outrage from black communities are somehow misplaced. It's not. I'm surprised this is a matter still being debated to be honest. Be careful your sources my fellow freethinkers and review all angles. A bit of a personal experience: I worked as Federal Correctional Officer and I also worked in private security officer. I'm also a US Army Veteran. I have seen over and over again during my tenure with these organizations, blacks receiving frequently more harsh sentences and punishments compared to their white counterparts. The legal and social disparities became a reality that many non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) just accepted for many years. After the most recent killings of blacks, a number of groups and individuals have just had enough. Some decided to protest peacefully, some decided to kill. The BLM movement didn't cause either of these. These are symptoms of a much broader issue.

Wow Reggie. Good to see you. In the Navy as a young man who grew up in Utah and had zero experience with racial issues, I saw the disparity between races. Filipinos and blacks were confined to certain specialties like Steward or Cook. I was in during the time the services had race riots. It took that for the services to get the message. Later, working for the Air Force, I saw the changes take effect- people of color finally had some opportunities and could advance.

We are in a period of upheaval much like 1962 in the U.S.. Hopefully there will be positive change. It could happen under Clinton, but never under any Republican.

Quote from: Jack89 on July 30, 2016, 12:59:10 AM
Instead of looking at the US population ratios, try looking at the demographics of criminals.  What percentage of crime is committed by blacks compared to other race/ethnic groups?  Compare police interactions, killings, incarcerations, arrests, confrontations and so on to the percentage of criminals rather than the percentage of the overall population.  Using overall population ratios is just dishonest.  I was career military and worked private security for years myself, performing security surveys across the western states.  So what?  That's anecdotal at best.  I joined these forums when you ran the show and have a lot of respect for you, but I have to disagree with you on this one. 

Yes Jack, as discussed in the Dallas shooting thread the crime rate is higher among blacks than it is in any other demographic in the US. The question is why? The answer is complicated but high rates of poverty, poor education, breakdown of the family unit, geographic distribution and long term bias against blacks in the legal system are all contributing factors. That last one is well documented. Of the five statistics for the first four are similar between blacks and Hispanics/Latinos. Bias in the legal system is the one where the rate is significantly higher for blacks than for it is for Latinos/Hispanics. That being said it is a pretty good indicator that said bias is a major contributing factor in higher crime rates among blacks.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on July 26, 2016, 10:01:59 AM
There is nothing wrong with the way Shiranu is using the term rate. It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics.

The rate per is a good method of comparing risk among different subsets. The statement, "The data says that black men are at  a higher risk of incarceration than white men because they are incarcerated at a higher rate." is true and includes a correct usage of the word rate.

Now let's look at the raw numbers for incarceration in the US by race. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf) on December 31, 2013 there were 505,600 whites (454,100 male / 51,500 female) in state and federal prisons. There were 549,100 blacks (526,000 males / 23,100 females) in the same prisons. Please note there are more blacks in US prisons than there are whites so even by your limited definition of the term rate which limits it to raw numbers blacks are incarcerated in the US at a higher rate than whites are.

We are talking about deaths, not incarcerations..

"It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics."

Actually it isn't. The way I'm using it is.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on August 01, 2016, 03:45:47 AM
We are talking about deaths, not incarcerations..

"It is in fact the classic definition of the term as used in statistics."

Actually it isn't. The way I'm using it is.

No, we are talking about the relationship between bias and conviction regarding to the crime rate. And Pop has offered a reasonable basis about the issue in a different thread. So people here are not looking at the issue with a frame of mind 'who killed the most' but from a much wider aspect with possible causes or reasons to the high crime rate in black minority.


Either make an argument based on a reasonable explanation with citations or stop repeating the 'what I say goes'. Frankly, noone gives a fuck about home made premises.

Quote from: JBCuzISaidSo on July 29, 2016, 10:52:45 PM
Oh? You do? ::blank sarcastic stare:: Because you ARE one of those, obviously, you must be, or else you wouldn't post these condescending words.

UM SAY WHAT? LMAO

I'm white. I've been white all my life. And my words aren't condescending in the least. Rather they are meant to be an eye opener that, the problems in the black community are very real. There also isn't any one reason behind it rather a mountain of reasons.

Post 50 and you're arguing about what you're arguing about.

Time to pack it in.

that's your opinion.

Why I waited this long to respond? because I finally got bored enough to.

Honestly I don't care about comments that attempt to silence me. I do and say what I please not as some one commands me to.

Quote from: stromboli on July 27, 2016, 11:06:08 AM
Don't recall reading any articles about white ghetto gangs. They are predominantly black and Hispanic. But their victims are predominantly black and Hispanic. As I mentioned previously one of my instructors in college grew up in a Hispanic gang environment in So Cal. He was a gang member who was mentored by a white high school teacher that saw potential in him and helped him escape his environment. The environment didn't go away, he did. There is a gang mentality among both cultures. You people don't hear local Hispanic music, not the stuff on the radio. Much of it centers around gang culture.

Much of black music and culture centers on gang related "thug life" and much of music like rap and hip hop had gang or ghetto roots. As long as there is an "us versus them" attitude across the board, as long as any percentage of Blacks or Hispanics embrace gang culture, as long as police forces recruit from middle class white sources primarily and as long as there is racial attitudes, the problems will not go away.

What Martin Luther King did was take a page out of Gandhi. somebody needs to read some MLK and start to use his methods. Blocking freeways and interrupting conventions doesn't win, perseverance  and patience does.

Like Isrealis and Palestinians, nobody, politically, is interested in non-violence.  It doesn't get votes or money contributions.  The first Intifada was peaceful, and successful, until Arafat came back and ruined it.  Both Israelis and Palestinians are invested in violence, just as White and Colored are in the US.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2016, 01:54:51 PM

Not all whites. I don't value black people any less than any other demographic, including the ones I belong to... and I'm definitely not the only one that is like that. Blacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2016, 02:10:08 PM
Not all whites. I don't value black people any less than any other demographic, including the ones I belong to... and I'm definitely not the only one that is like that. Blacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.

True that it is not everyone, but I do not agree that whites in this country value other races equally. We are a bunch of fucking Racists. I think this is a fundamental and ugly truth. The problem will remain until we can at least agree on that much, and I don't see that happening.

QuoteBlacklivesmatter hinges on the assumption that whites, for the most part don't value them equally, when in fact they do. It is not the majority of white people that value black people less than their own demographics.

Herein lies (two actually) the problem; black people cannot see into our mind anymore than we can see into theirs (I say that very figuratively, that sounds like we are at all different types of people). They can only see our actions... and how many white people are actively trying to fix the problem that black people are treated as less than equal in our society? How many white people who do truly think minorities need to be treated equally actively speak out about the problem and expect their fellow whites to think the same way? How many just sit by silently and say they are all for equal rights but then do nothing when the white minority continues to hold the power and treat racial minorities as less than equal?

And how many complain about the methods that African Americans take to try to bring attention to the issue, to inconvenience white people into taking action, instead of actually addressing the issue that is being brought up?

It's like whites somehow view an attack on a society that their silence and inaction enables as a personal attack on them. It's really not, it's just a wake up call that you are a gear in a machine that systematically dehumanizes an entire group of people and that you should not be comfortable with that.

Secondly, it does not hinge on the 'fact that white people don't value them equally', it hinges on the fact that white society does not value them equally. And I think that one can almost be objectively proven true when you look at how minorities are treated by society as a whole vs how white people are treated.


Edit: The more I think about this as I am writing it, the more I wonder if alot of the misunderstanding comes from the American hyper-individualistic ideology that is almost entirely unique to our culture (and strongest in the "white", "true-American" culture). We cannot separate the idea of "society" and "self" because society as a unit is an almost completely foreign concept to us.

I've thought about this a lot, too. I think people are by and large good and kind, and maybe I misspoke. I think you touched on something important, Shiranu. We can't see outside of ourselves. If someone says they have a certain experience, some others do their damndest to cast doubt on that, it somehow threatens them.
I am not sure it's actually malice, it's lack of empathy. Example: People who deny that black Americans have a different experience in the everyday world than white Americans. That microaggressions don't occur, because they have never seen them.

When a movement generalizes a demographic by something that takes up less than half of their demographic, there is bound to be a "misunderstanding". There is a lot of white people that are racist towards blacks, but it is less than half of whites.

For instance, I could start a campaign to raise awareness of how hipsters are all raging douchebags, but not all hipsters are raging douchebags. It's a minority of them. It's a big minority that includes a lot of hipsters, but it's still a minority.

It would have the same outcome:
Lots of hipsters getting angry for, as you might want to call it, "no reason" other than an american hyper individualistic mindset.

When in reality, it's hipsters realizing that, "No. most hipsters aren't raging douchebags, there are a lot of raging douchebag hipsters, but it's still only a minority"

This is like how black people get angry when racist white people say "Blacks are dangerous/blacks are criminals/blacks are [insert negative stereotype here]"

And no shit, they're going to get pissed. Because it's mostly not true. Most black people are not criminals. Regardless if black people commit more crime or not. The fact remains that even with those numbers, that is only a percentage of the black community. It's not a representation of the demographic as a whole, and it's not even a representation of the demographic as a half. It's less. Way less than half. A very small percentage.

When you have people saying that white people are nasty towards black people, because it's not even a claim that represents half of the white demographic, but it's a claim that is a minority of white people. It is also racism. The roles are reversed, but it's still racism.

The key words in what Shiranu posted is systematically and institutionally used in the negative with historical perspective. That fact pretty much renders the other fact of 'not all whites' pretty irrelevant to the issue, not to mention it is a ridiculous thing to point it out. Who would argue that any group of any sort is homogenous? It's a strawman argument to bring it up in the issue. It's pretty much like a reaction given in a discussion of rape crime; 'But not all men are rapists'. Pointless. Invalid.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2016, 01:54:51 PM

^This.
And--systematically and institutionally............

Learned that within the first week of moving to Alabama as a 5th grader.  Bussed to an all white brick school; passed a 'separate but equal' wood shack-like Negro school; shocked by the 'colored' and 'white' signs in public over drinking fountains and bathrooms.  One of the first questions I was asked by my classmates was, 'Are you a rebel of a yank?'.   Alabama was not a nice place--but it was sure a learning place for this little white kid.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2016, 11:35:57 PM
This is like how black people get angry when racist white people say "Blacks are dangerous/blacks are criminals/blacks are [insert negative stereotype here]"

And no shit, they're going to get pissed. Because it's mostly not true. Most black people are not criminals. Regardless if black people commit more crime or not. The fact remains that even with those numbers, that is only a percentage of the black community. It's not a representation of the demographic as a whole, and it's not even a representation of the demographic as a half. It's less. Way less than half. A very small percentage.

When you have people saying that white people are nasty towards black people, because it's not even a claim that represents half of the white demographic, but it's a claim that is a minority of white people. It is also racism. The roles are reversed, but it's still racism.

I don't see it as people not liking what others are saying about them. I think the problem is the inability for one group to imagine life as a member of another, to the point where they do not believe what that group is telling them.

Do the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?
-Yes, Im completely opposed to how police behave in america, yet to me, their actions make no sense.
First off, even if there is genuine racism, what would it accomplish to focus on that aspect of the problem, the solution to the problem wont come from pointing out the possible motivations of corrupt police, also, they never bother pointing out how to fix the problems with cops, and are usually neoliberal idiots who never point out the fact that the laws they are enforcing are shit.

Is All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?
-50 percent alt right retards, 30 percent neoliberals, 20 percent random people.
Just some stupid hashtag.

Do the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?
-Theyre enforcing laws that are extremely authoritarian in many instances, and are significantly more violent then most countries' police, so yea.

What is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?
-Blm is poisoning the well for discussion, As for a solution, just creating movements outside of blm to address police brutality.

Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?
-There may be more unfair convictions or unfair lack of convictions for one or the other, but theres no fucking way this can make up the difference completely.
Blacks are convicted of around 30 percent + of most violent crimes, and over half of the robbery, despite being 13 percent of the population.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 04, 2016, 06:32:14 AM
The key words in what Shiranu posted is systematically and institutionally used in the negative with historical perspective. That fact pretty much renders the other fact of 'not all whites' pretty irrelevant to the issue, not to mention it is a ridiculous thing to point it out. Who would argue that any group of any sort is homogenous? It's a strawman argument to bring it up in the issue. It's pretty much like a reaction given in a discussion of rape crime; 'But not all men are rapists'. Pointless. Invalid.

Name me a society in the 17th and 18th centuries that didnt have slavery.
Or atleast any section of the planet.
Name me a single one.
The idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43
this

QuoteThe idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.

Two things...

No one has even remotely implied this, nor does someone else doing something bad make it okay. Is slavery in Saudi Arabia of Pakistanis, Senegalese, Sri Lankan, etc. workers somehow less morally reproachable because white people did it as well?

Second, scale... scale... scale.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2016, 09:21:34 PM
Two things...

No one has even remotely implied this, nor does someone else doing something bad make it okay. Is slavery in Saudi Arabia of Pakistanis, Senegalese, Sri Lankan, etc. workers somehow less morally reproachable because white people did it as well?

Second, scale... scale... scale.

Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.
And no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.
I think you missed the point of what I said.
Why drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?

Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 11:05:40 PM
Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.

Where? No where in the quote does she imply that racism was a "white thing", nor in any post. You can certainly say American slavery was though because it historically was.

QuoteAnd no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.

American slavery was "a white thing", like it or not.

QuoteI think you missed the point of what I said.

That is always quite possible.

QuoteWhy drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?

No, I really don't think it has. As an institution it has only been abolished for less than 150 years, which is less than a blink of an eye in a historical context. In practice, there were plenty of blacks who were slaves in all but name for at least another 25-50 years at the very least. So that puts us at about 100 years, or only about 3-4 generations from people my age. That is borderline within living memory.


Now take into account the socio-economic situation that ex-slaves were presented when they left the plantation. They were uneducated and the white establishment had no intention to giving them an even remotely equal education for another 64 years after the turn of the century... or within my parents and grandparents memory. And that only gave them access to equal education if it existed where they lived, and access to higher education if they could afford it (which most couldn't).

History is not something that happens and then is over; the ramifications of our actions can echo for hundreds of years. This is another thing I think Americans have a hard time understanding because we lack that type of history; there are conflicts and grudges in the Middle East, in Asia, and yes even in Europe that date back hundreds and hundreds of years before the United States was even a dream; in Europe a perfect example of this is some of the conflicts with the Serbians and their neighbours, who celebrate Vidovdan on the 28th of June... the same day they assassinated Archduke Ferdinand. This was a holiday celebrating a victory in 1389 against the Ottomans... and had ramifications of the mentality of Serbians in 1914 that lead to the first World War.

Do not underestimate history; there is not just the danger of repeating it but of also not understanding why the effects of today are from the sins of our great-great grandfathers. Is it "fair" we have to pay for them? No, not in the least, but nevertheless their actions echo to this day and we have to understand that if we ever want to truly address them and fix them.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2016, 11:15:45 PM

Where? No where in the quote does she imply that racism was a "white thing", nor in any post. You can certainly say American slavery was though because it historically was.




American slavery was "a white thing", like it or not.



That is always quite possible.



No, I really don't think it has. As an institution it has only been abolished for less than 150 years, which is less than a blink of an eye in a historical context. In practice, there were plenty of blacks who were slaves in all but name for at least another 25-50 years at the very least. So that puts us at about 100 years, or only about 3-4 generations from people my age. That is borderline within living memory.


Now take into account the socio-economic situation that ex-slaves were presented when they left the plantation. They were uneducated and the white establishment had no intention to giving them an even remotely equal education for another 64 years after the turn of the century... or within my parents and grandparents memory. And that only gave them access to equal education if it existed where they lived, and access to higher education if they could afford it (which most couldn't).

History is not something that happens and then is over; the ramifications of our actions can echo for hundreds of years. This is another thing I think Americans have a hard time understanding because we lack that type of history; there are conflicts and grudges in the Middle East, in Asia, and yes even in Europe that date back hundreds and hundreds of years before the United States was even a dream; in Europe a perfect example of this is some of the conflicts with the Serbians and their neighbours, who celebrate Vidovdan on the 28th of June... the same day they assassinated Archduke Ferdinand. This was a holiday celebrating a victory in 1389 against the Ottomans... and had ramifications of the mentality of Serbians in 1914 that lead to the first World War.

Do not underestimate history; there is not just the danger of repeating it but of also not understanding why the effects of today are from the sins of our great-great grandfathers. Is it "fair" we have to pay for them? No, not in the least, but nevertheless their actions echo to this day and we have to understand that if we ever want to truly address them and fix them.

-Look at the pic she posted
-Actually, many of the people who participated in selling black people into slavery were black themselves, either way, why the fuck does this matter, I dont know if you are aware, but races arent the borg.
Not all black people are african slave owning cannibals, not all white people are slave owning christian fundy retards, not all arabic people are muslim extremist slave owning retards.
-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.
-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?
My way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?
Im not exactly aware of where you lean politically, so, have any ideas on addressing black communities having alot of poverty?
Pointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

Quote from: Jannabear on September 05, 2016, 12:20:00 AM

-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.
-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?
My way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?
Im not exactly aware of where you lean politically, so, have any ideas on addressing black communities having alot of poverty?
Pointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

Um 2 Centuries IS a short period of time. How old is the earth? You're being ridiculous.

It is relevant to bring up the reasons behind why there is black poverty. We can not fix a problem if we don't know why the problem is occurring. Other wise it's just sticking a band aide on a gaping wound.

Just because I don't have a solution to the problem doesn't mean we shouldn't address the problem. It is a compounding issue but it should be addressed.

And I'm not sure the racism branched from slavery. Even in the north where there was no slavery many people were still racist. Racism exists all over the world and is not unique to white people that's for sure. but it isn't pointless to point out that slavery is the beginning of a chain of events leading into what we have today.

Denying that there is a problem IS a problem! Something doesn't go away just by ignoring it.

It's almost like you just want to shut people up.

Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 09:02:36 PM
Name me a society in the 17th and 18th centuries that didnt have slavery.
Or atleast any section of the planet.
Name me a single one.
The idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.

It seems like you didn't get what my was post about and also not aware what is the current convo.

I didn't post that pic, Shiranu did and there were comments on it.

My post is about the reaction of 'not all whites' posted to that pic.  So it is written from the expression of that pic and pointing out that it is a strawman argument. 'But not all whites are racist' is a common reaction in this issue. It's irrelevant and invalid.

There is no conflict between what you wrote to me and what Shiranu posted or what I commented on it. Actually we are saying the same thing in different ways.

Quote from: Jannabear-Look at the pic she posted

Actually I posted it, and nowhere does it imply white people had a monopoly on slavery.

Quote-Actually, many of the people who participated in selling black people into slavery were black themselves, either way, why the fuck does this matter, I dont know if you are aware, but races arent the borg.

100% agreed with the bold, I don't understand how that is relevant to one of the largest and most inhumane institutions of oppression and barbarity ever established in human history being a predominately white affair.

QuoteNot all black people are african slave owning cannibals, not all white people are slave owning christian fundy retards, not all arabic people are muslim extremist slave owning retards.

And no one has even remotely implied they are.

Quote-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.

No, it's really not. I study history and anthropology; for history, 200 years is a very short time and for anthropology, where you are dealing with "humans" 30,000 years old and our ancestors hundreds of thousands to millions of years old... 200 years is literally nothing.

Again, it's easy as both Americans but also as citizens of the modern world to think 200 years is a short time, but if you look at it in a historical context then you realise that is nothing. In the last 100 years we have seen more change to...everything... thanks to technology and thus think that change is something common, but if you look at human history from say 500 A.D. to 1800 A.D. then you realise that society takes a VERY long time to change; in that time the life of the average person changed very, very little.

Quote-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?/quote]

I just posted 4 paragraphs on why it's relevant.

QuoteMy way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?

I doubt it, since I am about as close to a communist as you will find here (yourself excluded).

I personally don't feel like writing a 50 page essay just to answer that question, but the short of it is influence public opinion to the point they are forced to realise their culture treats African Americans as less than equal, increase the educational standards and fundings in inner-city schools and rural areas so that being rich is not a pre-req for a proper education (this benefits all ethnicities, not just African Americans), bring attention to the fact that it is mostly white corporate businessmen who further propagate the "ghetto culture" by featuring black artists who only spread this message while making sure hip hop artists, rappers and movies with a message are not played to nearly the same extent... and so on and so forth.

QuotePointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

Again, it's really not. You cant address such a huge issue without taking a holistic view on it. When something is this complex you have to look at it from every possible angle to be absolutely sure you can address it to the best of your ability.

Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 11:05:40 PM
Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.
And no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.
I think you missed the point of what I said.
Why drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?

Everything is a White thing in the US, not elsewhere, because we have a historical White thing going on here.  White narcissism.  Other places have very different histories.  I dislike what Saudis do to imported domestics ... of course.  Wage slavery and debt slavery are very real ... and we ignore that ... it is all Roots all the time in the US so that we are distracted from the more modern forms of injustice.  biblically, wage slavery and debt slavery are condemned by the Bible,  but not chattal slavery ... but I condemn that too.  The problem being, you can't have a real society without real slavery?

What does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

Has anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have. If you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans, the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s, the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century, the way Italian Americans were treated during almost the same time.... etc... etc...

So stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality. We're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now. If you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 05, 2016, 04:10:15 PM
What does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

Has anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have. If you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans, the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s, the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century, the way Italian Americans were treated during almost the same time.... etc... etc...

So stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality. We're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now. If you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.

IT has everything to do with our cultural attitudes toward races. Slavery was abolished, but the divide remains. It's not really done and over, that's the thing. Nothing will move forward until we can at least agree there's an issue, and what the issue is. We can't seem to get past that.

The divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons. Until we look at what those issues are and what the main one used to be, we will never move forward.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 05, 2016, 04:40:15 PM
The divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons.

I don't think I agree at all that the reasons have nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a social divide that just hasn't healed.
The Jim Crow laws persisted until 1965. That is my own lifetime.

Quote from: PickledeggWhat does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

I don't think anyone here, or in BLM, is saying that slavery is an issue facing the African American community. Rather what is being said is that the aftershocks of slavery leave a visible imprint on our society to this day, as should be expected.

QuoteHas anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have.

A. All utterly irrelevant because no one actually says those things.
B. So because you don't understand a point, and even if you did, that somehow invalidates everything else they have to say? You really don't see just how heavily tinged with bias that is that you chomp at the bits to (mistakenly) find any reason to discredit everything they have to say because of one flaw?

QuoteIf you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans...

You... you do realise Native American culture has never recovered from that, right? In bringing that up, you are literally proving the point you are arguing against that the past has ramifications on the present. Have you ever seen the statistics of Native American crime, alcoholism, poverty and standard of education? Have you been to a Native American reservation and actually talked to the people?

It's not pretty. They are not the poster children of over-coming a terrible past... again, they are exactly the poster child of how hard a terrible past can be to get over.

Quote...the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s...

Probably the only good example you gave, though that's not to say there aren't problems within the Japanese-American communities. That said, they have predominately lived in more affluent regions than African Americans (and Italian Americans, Latino Americans, etc.) have and have had better access to education than African Americans have, which greatly helps them integrate into society.

Quote... the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century,...

No where near as badly as African Americans, and it took them a long time to recover as well. To save a quote space, same for the Italians (one I can personally vouch for being adopted out of a criminal, druggy Sicilian family on my mom's side).

QuoteSo stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality.

"I don't like that you have an opinion different than me, so I cant take you seriously... even if your opinion is something I don't even apparently remotely understand!".

QuoteWe're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now.

For the love of god, please never ask me to "think before I speak" again. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was a brain slip rather than you really believing the past and present are two completely separate entities that do not effect one another.

QuoteIf you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.

No, nothing will ever move forward if we act like history doesn't matter and we should all just smile and be happy and everything will work out.

You cannot understand a problem without understanding why it exists, what actions took place to cause the situation. Just because that seems so inconvenient to you, or offends you for whatever reason (which is really quite emotional, I must add), does not somehow change the reality of that situation.

It's amazing how quick atheists, who trumpet themselves as the paragons of logic and rational thought against convention, are to cast aside evidence and information when it doesn't appeal to their biases. Funny how that works...

QuoteThe divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons. Until we look at what those issues are and what the main one used to be, we will never move forward.

Causes and reasons that have their roots in actions and consequences of the actions our ancestors took. Our generation does not live in a vacuum.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 07:51:22 PM
I don't think anyone here, or in BLM, is saying that slavery is an issue facing the African American community. Rather what is being said is that the aftershocks of slavery leave a visible imprint on our society to this day, as should be expected.

A. All utterly irrelevant because no one actually says those things.
B. So because you don't understand a point, and even if you did, that somehow invalidates everything else they have to say? You really don't see just how heavily tinged with bias that is that you chomp at the bits to (mistakenly) find any reason to discredit everything they have to say because of one flaw?

You... you do realise Native American culture has never recovered from that, right? In bringing that up, you are literally proving the point you are arguing against that the past has ramifications on the present. Have you ever seen the statistics of Native American crime, alcoholism, poverty and standard of education? Have you been to a Native American reservation and actually talked to the people?

It's not pretty. They are not the poster children of over-coming a terrible past... again, they are exactly the poster child of how hard a terrible past can be to get over.

Probably the only good example you gave, though that's not to say there aren't problems within the Japanese-American communities. That said, they have predominately lived in more affluent regions than African Americans (and Italian Americans, Latino Americans, etc.) have and have had better access to education than African Americans have, which greatly helps them integrate into society.

No where near as badly as African Americans, and it took them a long time to recover as well. To save a quote space, same for the Italians (one I can personally vouch for being adopted out of a criminal, druggy Sicilian family on my mom's side).

"I don't like that you have an opinion different than me, so I cant take you seriously... even if your opinion is something I don't even apparently remotely understand!".

For the love of god, please never ask me to "think before I speak" again. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was a brain slip rather than you really believing the past and present are two completely separate entities that do not effect one another.

No, nothing will ever move forward if we act like history doesn't matter and we should all just smile and be happy and everything will work out.

You cannot understand a problem without understanding why it exists, what actions took place to cause the situation. Just because that seems so inconvenient to you, or offends you for whatever reason (which is really quite emotional, I must add), does not somehow change the reality of that situation.

It's amazing how quick atheists, who trumpet themselves as the paragons of logic and rational thought against convention, are to cast aside evidence and information when it doesn't appeal to their biases. Funny how that works...

Causes and reasons that have their roots in actions and consequences of the actions our ancestors took. Our generation does not live in a vacuum.

The native americans never recovered from it because they were practically completely wiped out. They also insist on continuing their own culture with zero assimilation and instead, full seclusion. I agree with that as their right, since it was them who was here first and everyone else is 'invaders' of sorts, but a choice of seclusion is also choice of making a point that they are not one of everyone else.

And for your reply to the Irish Americans/Italian Americans "No where as bad as african americans"? Really? So what? They still were discriminated against very heavily. This goes back to what I was saying about the "victim olympics" everyone wants to identify with the group that suffered the most and be the martyr.

And no one brings up slavery as a main point of their argument? You can't be serious about that, can you? lol

There is a time and a place for the past. We learn from it and move on, but there comes a point when dwelling in it too deeply turns in to clinging to it and dragging it forward with you. This is what black lives matter is doing when it pulls the slavery card.

And dude. I'm not offended or emotional so when you start implying that I am, it gives me the idea that you're just projecting your own offended and emotional psyche. You're not projecting again, are you? If you aren't, I'd stop assuming so much about what other people are feeling, if I were you.

QuoteThe native americans never recovered from it because they were practically completely wiped out.

That didn't stop the Jews, the Armenians, the Polish, the Irish (in Europe), etc. etc. .

Quotehey also insist on continuing their own culture with zero assimilation and instead, full seclusion. I agree with that as their right, since it was them who was here first and everyone else is 'invaders' of sorts, but a choice of seclusion is also choice of making a point that they are not one of everyone else.

I think you just about hit something important here, on seclusion and assimilation. African Americans faced much the same after slavery ended, until only 52 years ago, except they were excluded from assimilating rather than choosing it.

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.

You can say that history is absolutely irrelevant and we must only focus on the now, which is an incredibly foolish thing to do, but you cant deny that within our parent's generation African Americans were not equal citizens by law. I really hope you can see how that might linger at least 1-2 generations later.

QuoteAnd for your reply to the Irish Americans/Italian Americans "No where as bad as african americans"? Really? So what?

If I put you 100 yards from the finish line, O'Mally 400 yards away and Darius 1500 yards away... you cant honestly expect everyone to reach the end at the same time.

QuoteThis goes back to what I was saying about the "victim olympics" everyone wants to identify with the group that suffered the most and be the martyr.

No, this really doesn't. This just goes to you trying to make everything into some social cause you can hate on as an excuse to ignore what they are actually saying.

QuoteAnd no one brings up slavery as a main point of their argument? You can't be serious about that, can you? lol

And again, just because you are not understanding what is being said does not mean they are saying what you think.

QuoteThere is a time and a place for the past. We learn from it and move on, but there comes a point when dwelling in it too deeply turns in to clinging to it and dragging it forward with you. This is what black lives matter is doing when it pulls the slavery card.

No One Is Pulling the Slavery Card. What is being "pulled" is that actions have reactions, and those reactions can echo across generations. There are people alive who can remember parents, grandparents who were slaves... you really don't think that has an effect on the psyche of them, of their children?

There is a time and place for history; that is every time and every where. We cant discard it when it's inconvenient to us, when we don't want to hear it. What you are saying is that what people who are actually going through injustice isn't important, because you know better than them what their situation is and they are just idiots for bringing it up. So when I say emotional, this is what I mean; there is no rational thought, you are just knee jerking about another social cause which gets your knickers in a twist.


And this isn't just with BLM but basically any minority movement that tries to bring attention to their issues... the smallest, smallest flaw you can nit-pick at, even if you are nit-picking at a strawman because you don't grasp what is being said, you water at the mouth while declaring that you know what REALLY is going on with them and that the people who actually live it should just shut up because they don't know what they are talking about.

QuoteAnd dude. I'm not offended or emotional so when you start implying that I am, it gives me the idea that you're just projecting your own offended and emotional psyche.

Sorry, it's just when you insist that you know more about people's situation than the people actually living in it, post after post showing that you don't understand what they are saying and that they should just be ignored and their entire position is bunked because of your ignorance, it's hard to take that as a rational position.

Also, I cant help but notice you always take any comment about men or whites as a personal attack, that "NOT ALL MEN!" "NOT ALL WHITES!"... okay, no shit, no one is saying these things. That is, unfortunately, quite emotional on your part.

QuoteIf you aren't, I'd stop assuming so much about what other people are feeling, if I were you.

It was more tongue in cheek, but maybe I did poke an actual nerve...

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 09:42:08 PM

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.

This^  Very important!

I've thought of this long and hard.  In the Alabama I lived in no matter how much any Negro (or, if you were talking to one of the white rebels--nigger) wanted to ride anywhere on the bus, get a sandwich at Woolworth, or go to any bathroom, or get a drink from any fountain, or go to a white chruch, or go to any school, or...............................well, you get the idea.  They had a designated place and by God they were going to stay there!  There were just about two systems for everything in that state (and many, many others), from a set of laws and set of enforcement of those  laws to the places one could eat, sleep, shop or do anything else.  Fuck--they even had colored beaches and swimming pools; if they were allowed at all.  I saw and lived those laws; how can one group assimilate into the culture of another if they are not allowed to.

Anyone who thinks we are not still feeling the aftershocks of slavery, much less Jim Crow, is deluding themselves. To put things into respective, we are only 15-ish lifetimes removed from the fall of Western Rome. History is not as far in the past as you think.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 09:42:08 PM
That didn't stop the Jews, the Armenians, the Polish, the Irish (in Europe), etc. etc. .

I think you just about hit something important here, on seclusion and assimilation. African Americans faced much the same after slavery ended, until only 52 years ago, except they were excluded from assimilating rather than choosing it.

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.

You can say that history is absolutely irrelevant and we must only focus on the now, which is an incredibly foolish thing to do, but you cant deny that within our parent's generation African Americans were not equal citizens by law. I really hope you can see how that might linger at least 1-2 generations later.

If I put you 100 yards from the finish line, O'Mally 400 yards away and Darius 1500 yards away... you cant honestly expect everyone to reach the end at the same time.

No, this really doesn't. This just goes to you trying to make everything into some social cause you can hate on as an excuse to ignore what they are actually saying.

And again, just because you are not understanding what is being said does not mean they are saying what you think.

No One Is Pulling the Slavery Card. What is being "pulled" is that actions have reactions, and those reactions can echo across generations. There are people alive who can remember parents, grandparents who were slaves... you really don't think that has an effect on the psyche of them, of their children?

There is a time and place for history; that is every time and every where. We cant discard it when it's inconvenient to us, when we don't want to hear it. What you are saying is that what people who are actually going through injustice isn't important, because you know better than them what their situation is and they are just idiots for bringing it up. So when I say emotional, this is what I mean; there is no rational thought, you are just knee jerking about another social cause which gets your knickers in a twist.


And this isn't just with BLM but basically any minority movement that tries to bring attention to their issues... the smallest, smallest flaw you can nit-pick at, even if you are nit-picking at a strawman because you don't grasp what is being said, you water at the mouth while declaring that you know what REALLY is going on with them and that the people who actually live it should just shut up because they don't know what they are talking about.

Sorry, it's just when you insist that you know more about people's situation than the people actually living in it, post after post showing that you don't understand what they are saying and that they should just be ignored and their entire position is bunked because of your ignorance, it's hard to take that as a rational position.

Also, I cant help but notice you always take any comment about men or whites as a personal attack, that "NOT ALL MEN!" "NOT ALL WHITES!"... okay, no shit, no one is saying these things. That is, unfortunately, quite emotional on your part.

It was more tongue in cheek, but maybe I did poke an actual nerve...

Uh. no. you didn't poke a nerve, so again. Stop insisting that you did.

You do have good points though. I retract my statement about the slavery argument

As usual on these forums and everywhere else, the discussion is long on causes, reasons, motivations, agendas, and so forth.

And glaringly short on solutions, suggested courses of action, plans for the future, ideas to repair damage.

I get the feeling that it's because there is no practical solution to be had. That the only thing that can truly correct racial tension is time and education. That the controversy of this issue is a manifestation of our powerlessness to summon Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream before it is damn well good and ready to arrive, and that until it does the topic has no practical use as anything other than a political club used to beat opponents into submission.

For example, we can agree that cops too readily shoot black people. What's the solution to that? Prosecution? That only ensures that cops who shoot black people without cause go to jail. It does nothing to prevent other racist cops from continuing to have a hair trigger around black suspects. New training? Forgive me if I put less than absolute faith in the ability of training to erase racial bias in a police officer.

Many if not all of the racial issues in this country have the same problem: no solution. No magic button to push that ends racism. You might say changes can be made and laws passed that enable the social progress necessary to eliminate racism from our society, but laws and changes like that HAVE been implemented in the past yet, according to the "black community" racism is still as healthy as ever.

So, is this discussion pointless? Is there even anything to be done here or are we just exchanging one-ups?

I agree that police brutality is a large problem, what i disagree with is that it is a purely, or even mostly racial issue.
If you take into account the massive difference in crime rates between white and black people, its clear why when you look at the statistics alone, why more black people are murdered by police.
Now, some may say "well, cops should be more hesitant to use violence in a scenario such as a robbery or other crimes that, most of the time, arent being done with intent to actually shoot someone, but out of being desperate"
but the thing is, then the common factor wouldnt be race, but would just be cops using violence to often.
Either way, even if there is a decent amount of racism among police, pointing out racism among the cops will do absolutely nothing to stop police brutality.
The solution to police brutality is to hold police accountable as if they were a citizen being accused of a crime, to make them wear body cams, etc.
Crying racism, rather it be true or false, does absolutely nothing to help anyone.


So, my question is, why would you focus on the racism of cops, even if it does exist, when it does literally nothing to prevent police brutality, and usually muddys the waters for discussing police brutality anyways.

[mod]Merged with the megathread. No need for an extra thread of this[/mod]

no discussion is pointless.

If you don't like our discussion then don't bother reading it. Stop trying to shut people up.

@Jannabear Your post was merged here.

Quote from: doorknob on September 06, 2016, 01:21:16 PM
no discussion is pointless.

If you don't like our discussion then don't bother reading it. Stop trying to shut people up.

Agreed.

Quote from: doorknob on September 06, 2016, 01:21:16 PM
no discussion is pointless.

If you don't like our discussion then don't bother reading it. Stop trying to shut people up.

ITP guy tries to get me to stop trying to shut people up by essentially telling me to shut up. Three claps for you sir.

But I'm not trying to shut people up. I'm proposing a suggestion that these issues have no Acton able solution. Can I assume that, since you retreated from the main point of my post and decided to give me snark over some insignificant phrase, that you either agree with me or can't figure out how to argue against it?

Quote from: Nonsensei on September 06, 2016, 05:52:18 AM
As usual on these forums and everywhere else, the discussion is long on causes, reasons, motivations, agendas, and so forth.

And glaringly short on solutions, suggested courses of action, plans for the future, ideas to repair damage.

I get the feeling that it's because there is no practical solution to be had. That the only thing that can truly correct racial tension is time and education. That the controversy of this issue is a manifestation of our powerlessness to summon Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream before it is damn well good and ready to arrive, and that until it does the topic has no practical use as anything other than a political club used to beat opponents into submission.

For example, we can agree that cops too readily shoot black people. What's the solution to that? Prosecution? That only ensures that cops who shoot black people without cause go to jail. It does nothing to prevent other racist cops from continuing to have a hair trigger around black suspects. New training? Forgive me if I put less than absolute faith in the ability of training to erase racial bias in a police officer.

Many if not all of the racial issues in this country have the same problem: no solution. No magic button to push that ends racism. You might say changes can be made and laws passed that enable the social progress necessary to eliminate racism from our society, but laws and changes like that HAVE been implemented in the past yet, according to the "black community" racism is still as healthy as ever.

So, is this discussion pointless? Is there even anything to be done here or are we just exchanging one-ups?

Any correction starts by identifying the problem, which is the point of these discussions.  Even if it can only be fixed by "time and education", that fix doesn't even begin until conversations bring to light that there is even a problem.

Quote from: Nonsensei on September 06, 2016, 02:58:22 PM
ITP guy tries to get me to stop trying to shut people up by essentially telling me to shut up. Three claps for you sir.

But I'm not trying to shut people up. I'm proposing a suggestion that these issues have no Acton able solution. Can I assume that, since you retreated from the main point of my post and decided to give me snark over some insignificant phrase, that you either agree with me or can't figure out how to argue against it?

I don't know if this is your point or if it's the opposite of your point, but I think the point of these discussions *should be* about trying to brainstorm what the underlying reasons for the things that happen and how to solve them.

For instance, I personally think the discrimination that happens against black people, violence, and the slavery that even though it's gone and done with, there is something else that we need to deal with. Kind of like when someone keeps sneezing and coughing, you can either grab some lozenges, or you can find out what the cause is and get rid of that. Maybe it's the flu and you need some medicine to wipe out the germs, maybe it's allergies and you need some antihistamine.

I feel like the way this black lives matter movement is going about it is the way lozenges act against a cough. It doesn't get rid of whatever is causing the cough, it just kind of temporarily numbs the throat to make the person feel better while the germs just multiply because you're not treating the disease correctly. Black lives matter fights racism with racism. It's not across the board that it's fighting racism with racism, but it happens way too frequently and it's not made clear enough to the people acting out like this that they are not welcome in this "equality" movement. And I put equality in quotations only for that reason, because it has the potential to be a great cause, but because of a lot of bad apples, the whole tree went rotten. Remove all the bad apples and you have a healthy tree. Remove the violent and and hateful blm members and you have a movement for equality and not for "equality".

The reason why one sub-culture has to be opposed to another sub-culture, is that helps The Man.  Divide and conquer boys.

The past can't be changed.  The present is too transient.  Only the future can be better.  How can the future be better ... you have to be a better person yourself, you can then embody a better future, if you live long enough.  It isn't possible to make a better future by beating the other guy over the head with a night stick or by tazering him.

I don't admire "thug life", but I think it is more a poverty thing than a racial one.  Poor white kids relate to rap and "thug" as well as poor black, hispanic, and asians do.  And some ignore it when they see a way out out of poverty.