:evil:
They've also been saying that about hurricanes and tornadoes for decades - as if we don't know what causes them.
Just another god-o-the-gaps moment (and I think the gap is between their ears). I don't know whether they expect me to respect their beliefs, but I never have and I never will. I respect their right to be idiots, but I don't respect idiocy.
God's will
God is in control
God moves in mysterious ways
God is testing us
Oh, god.
A loved one dies suddenly for no good reason. Storms wreak havoc. Bad shit happens. It's hard to accept that it's all just misfortune brought about my a largely random and uncaring universe. It's much more comforting to believe that someone is in control, and has a plan. So, all of these misfortunes, tragedies, and seemingly random events are REALLY part of God's mysterious and inscrutable "plan".
This is one of evangelical Chrisitianity's hot selling points - it simultaneously appeals to everyone's hubris, while offering a security blanket. "Hey, there is a a supreme, unimaginably powerful being who created and controls the universe and all in it, but YOU are special to him, and he has a plan for YOU!". It's an emotional placebo. One that people have come to rely on, even though it's nothing more than self-deception and wishful thinking.
I think he meant that it was God's will for the electrical current to strike her. It's probably something he must believe or risk hating his concept of God or losing belief in it altogether. But God's will is something we can never question, but praise him for always.
So I'd tell him to lose his belief in it altogether. A lot less he'll have to rationalize, then he can properly mourn his daughter.
:evil:
All I know is that it's great to see you, Solitary.
=D>
Quote from: "Solitary"I have a friend that is an engineering physicist that believes in God because it brings him comfort. I really don't understand how an all loving God that destroyed all human life in the past
That was our fault, for not being what he wanted us to be.
Quoteor can sends you to hell unless you believe in Him and placate Him
We choose to go to hell.
Quotebrings comfort, nor how everlasting life can.
If you can't accept your own death, or the death of your loved ones, it probably does. But some people grow up.
I usually translate "God works in mysterious ways" into "God's being a dick, nothing to see here".
My translation is "I don't have a clue, but I don't like admitting that."
Quote from: "Solitary""It was God's will," her father, Eric Dizon, said Friday.
Jesus H Christ I can't believe he would be this stupid to think a sentient higher power caused this and not an electrical spark. I'm suppose to respect peoples beliefs in a magical being in the heavens that are based on a delusion, faulty reasoning, and emotion?
I think you have to remember that this is a guy that just lost his daughter very suddenly and very unexpectedly. And now he's (presumably) got some POS reporter all up in his grill with a recorder asking for a quote. I don't really think he's doin' the math to work out the full meaning of what he's saying. He's most likely giving an off the cuff vanilla statement that won't embarrass him or his loved ones and will get said POS reporter out of his grill as fast as possible. Considering the circumstances, I don't know that I'd read much more into it than that.
:evil:
Yep, it is more like the admission that god hisself thought you or your loved one was so important to him that he personally took the time from his busy schedule to kill said person. This supposedly makes one feel better than say, oh I don't know, that your kid died just for no fucking reason at all.
Quote from: "aitm"This supposedly makes one feel better than say, oh I don't know, that your kid died just for no fucking reason at all.
But in this case she didn't die for no reason at all. She died because she was too stupid to come in out of the rain. Probably because she was brought up as a good, God-fearing Christian, and didn't believe that anything could happen to her that wasn't God Swill.
Gods will made you read this post. PTL!
Now don't you feel all blessed n shit? ;)
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "Solitary""It was God's will," her father, Eric Dizon, said Friday.
Jesus H Christ I can't believe he would be this stupid to think a sentient higher power caused this and not an electrical spark. I'm suppose to respect peoples beliefs in a magical being in the heavens that are based on a delusion, faulty reasoning, and emotion?
I think you have to remember that this is a guy that just lost his daughter very suddenly and very unexpectedly. And now he's (presumably) got some POS reporter all up in his grill with a recorder asking for a quote. I don't really think he's doin' the math to work out the full meaning of what he's saying. He's most likely giving an off the cuff vanilla statement that won't embarrass him or his loved ones and will get said POS reporter out of his grill as fast as possible. Considering the circumstances, I don't know that I'd read much more into it than that.
Good point. None of us can really know how we'd react while in such a state of shock - can we? Losing a daughter is horrific alone without having to utter one word about it.
Isn't that what one gets for flying kites with a key dangling from the string in a thunderstorm?
Oh wait.. That would be discovering electricity..
Yeah, the poor guy is grieving the loss of his child in a horrible manner, and he's been programmed to believe that everything, good or bad, is somehow God's will. Naturally, his instinctive reply will be "God willed it." I doubt he actually thought about it much, and probably won't. "God willed it" is many people's answer to "Why did this bad thing happen?" It can much more comforting than, "There is no reason, it's all just random bad luck."
:evil:
Quote from: "Solitary"Yes the man was under great emotional stress from losing his daughter (But why? She is in heaven now, right?), does this mean when he gets over it he will still believe it was God's will, or before it happen that he didn't know what lightning is? Would any atheist say that because he doesn't want to embarrass himself by saying it was God's will, or would he be embarrassed to say it was God's will because of knowing what causes lightning? I know, the man who lost his daughter does know what causes lightning---God. And still he will worships and placates Him, Why? What if I willed his daughter to die, would he feel the same way about me? Please explain to me how he is being rational claiming it was God's will and still believing in Him. Bill
Nothing rational about it. I think what some of us have said is he's under emotional duress so really he can't or shouldn't explain ANYthing.......said or thought regarding the death of a daughter.
Actually I should just speak for myself - that's how I see it - yanno?
There's nothing rational about it.
In fact - I'll go you one further - IF the christians are right - I'm in hell for sure. Not because I've lived a wicked life (I'd stack mine against the uber religious any day) No....... because if I stand in front of god I plan on shaking my fist at him and giving him one hell of a piece of my mind. AKA "WTF? How dare you???" and a couple of other interesting points.
I anticipate banishment at that time.
:evil:
Gods will is making you debate gods will, but FREE will goes on sale at Walmart for just $29.95 for a three hour discounted trial offer.*
*Conditions and availability may vary. No claims of success should be inferred as none is offered.
Quote from: "Solitary"I wasn't talking about when he was under emotional stress which is understandable to be irrational, only before and after the event when he gets over it, if ever. Why is it assumed everyone has to evoke God anytime something tragic happens, or they are embarrassed not to? I understand loss believe me, even from murder of a close friend by a close friend. If a reporter had questioned me about the other losses by natural causes, God would be the last thing to come into my mind.
And if he asked me what I thought about it, I would say, "Shit happens!" My wife's nephew lost his son to leukemia, it's been six years now and he still hasn't got over it because he thinks it was God's will in his mind and can't get back to reality. I don't believe false hope helps anyone. On this subject I'm a cold blooded realist. Probably from PTSD, or just maybe because I don't believe in superstitious nonsense but reality. Solitary
Social pressure to do so? Social influence. Falling into that *norm* category again? That's my best guess.
'Thank god', 'Gods will' etc. have been so ingrained into our culture that even the most ardent atheists say them.
I often complain about shit beginning with JESUS CHRIST MAN!... Yeah, I know.. I should.invoke the Toothfairy instead, but.. ya know..
Quote from: "Solitary"Please explain to me how he is being rational claiming it was God's will and still believing in Him.
If he claimed it was the will of a god he
didn't believe in he would be irrational. Claiming that his god killed his daughter, and still
worshiping that god is irrational.
What kind of person would have such a huge lack of compassion as to take someone who has just suffered a tremendous loss to task for one simple off-hand statement to a reporter? Not only take them to task, but also draw numerous conclusions about this person's believes and worship practices based on only four words they were quoted as saying, and then publicly belittle them for the conclusions drawn from those words. Who would be so small minded and petty as to do such a thing to another human being? Atheists that's who. Our parents should be proud of us. :(
:evil:
Quote from: "Solitary"Drawing numerous conclusions after an offhand remark about ones practices and beliefs after they say it was Gods will when it's quite obvious if someone says it is the will of God that they are religious and believe in an all powerful, all loving God, and all knowing God is not a logical conclusion?
Not for me it isn't. When my boss asks me if we'll be able to get a certain project done on a certain deadline, I will often say 'god willing and the creek don't freeze.' Does that mean I believe in god? Because I can assure you that I do not. People make off hand comments like that all the time that mean nothing. And as someone who lost both parents within 3 weeks of each other, I can also assure you that at least one person I know well (me) made lots of those sorts of off hand comments in the aftermath of an unexpected loss of a loved one.
Why? Because people tend to ask you questions in those times for which you don't have any answers. People would say 'man isn't it amazing that your dad died so close to your mom's death?' And my answer to that in my brain would be something along the lines of there is nothing amazing about this. But the person saying it is someone I care about and they're being nice even if they're being a bone head. So instead I would say something like well it was certainly unexpected.
Now to use your logic again, does that mean we really we not expecting my parents to die? At the time that they died, both of them had been in and out of hospitals with various ailments for the better part of ten years. So what exactly was unexpected about them dying? Nothing, that's what. But saying it was unexpected is something people do in those situations because there really is nothing else to say.
There was nothing truthful or accurate I could tell you about my parents death immediately after it happened because I so thrown by it, that I didn't know what I felt. In fact I was so thrown by it that I didn't even really understand that I was thrown by it at the time. So yeah, when a guy who has just lost his teen aged daughter makes some off hand comment about her death, I tend to to just let it go rather than hanging the guy on a public forum because I've been there and I know from experience that you say shit you don't really mean just to get everyone else to shut the fuck up about it and leave you alone to your grieving in those situations.
Maybe you've been in those situations yourself and you've been able to form complete and accurate answers to to whatever people threw at you. If so goodie for you. Lots of people, myself included, don't work that way. So you can go ahead and belittle the guy all you want for what he said and justify it however you like. I'm still going to think it's a douchy thing to do. Sue me.
:evil:
I believe that I don't know anything about what that man believes or worships and I believe you don't know anything about it either.
:evil:
Quote from: "Solitary"And you don't know anything about me or other atheist to assume they are not compassionate just from posts about a man saying it is the will of God his daughter got struck by lightning. Most people would assume and say he is religious, why don't you think he is just because what he said was under emotional turmoil and stress and the fact that most religious people would say the same thing under the same conditions to ease their suffering?
Where is your compassion, I assume like you do from your posts, for people that don't believe in God when they have a great loss and can't say it was God's will to ease their suffering? You say you know nothing about the man and yet you assume we don't by what he said that is a common response from a believer in God and what they practice. "Judge and yee shall be judged." Solitary
WTF are you talking about? Nothing you've written above makes any sense. Is English not your first language? I'm not asking that to be snarky, I'm asking it seriously. Your post makes no sense to me and I do not understand what you're trying to say.
Now I know why I left the Midwest. Did you ever think it may be because you can't comprehend and not me? And now you resort to another fallacy---Argumentum Ad Hominem. Time to leave this subject. I'll pray for you, it's Gods will. Bill
Umm... I'm in the Midwest because work has brought us here. I was born, raised and spent most of my adult life in NJ. Its cute that the best you can come up with is trying to insult me for being a country hick. But again, you're wrong. Better luck next time champ.
Dealing with people that use slick maneuvers can be emotionally trying because they often exhibit characteristics of neurotics who don't have the first clue about what sound reasoning is. One of the common traits of neurotics is the unrealistic desire to control and manipulate others. [-X Solitary
Thanks for sharing.
:shock: =D> 8-) Solitary