If the fictional man Jesus were real, would I like to hang around the guy? Not really. If one reads carefully about what this man of peace is saying, I want nothing doing with the guy; he can't seem to make up his mind about much. For example, the man of peace says this:
John 15:6 â€" “If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.â€
Luke 12:47 â€" “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.â€
Mark 14:3-7 â€" “3While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. 4Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, ‘Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.’ And they rebuked her harshly. 6‘Leave her alone,’ said Jesus. ‘Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.'â€
Matthewâ€,8:32 â€" “He said to them, ‘Go!’ So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.â€
Mark 11:13-14 â€" “Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, ‘May no one ever eat fruit from you again.’ And his disciples heard him say it.â€
(Matthew 10:34-36)--"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."
(Luke 12:51,52)--"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three . . . "
(Luke 22:36)--"And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11
Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Not my kind of dude! No wonder christians really are amoral--they really do think they can do whatever they want and that is cool with their fictional gods.
That's why I am an anti theist. There is no redeeming feature with the christian triumvirate that would warrant acknowledgement, submission or worship, even if they existed.
Quote from: reasonist on May 30, 2016, 12:46:45 PM
That's why I am an anti theist. There is no redeeming feature with the christian triumvirate that would warrant acknowledgement, submission or worship, even if they existed.
The character of Jesus was pretty unique ... there wasn't much that was Jewish, Roman or American about him. Most of us care for family and material success ... the opposites of what this character was concerned about. If you have good family, if you have material success .. then you might want to look over your shoulder over what is coming next. But if Jesus is speaking to those without family and without material success, and had no hope of gaining those ... then the message would be taken differently.
A man of peace? Or a piece of man!
http://drewrowsome.blogspot.com/2016/03/1st-annual-kinky-jesus-competition.html?view=magazine (http://drewrowsome.blogspot.com/2016/03/1st-annual-kinky-jesus-competition.html?view=magazine)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/androidlove/Hunky%20Jesus%2004_zps7bprntsj.jpg)
Quote from: Baruch on May 30, 2016, 01:06:54 PM
The character of Jesus was pretty unique ... there wasn't much that was Jewish, Roman or American about him. Most of us care for family and material success ... the opposites of what this character was concerned about. If you have good family, if you have material success .. then you might want to look over your shoulder over what is coming next. But if Jesus is speaking to those without family and without material success, and had no hope of gaining those ... then the message would be taken differently.
True enough. What is disturbing about Jesus alleged demands is the urging of perfectly established members of society, with family, career or business, to leave everything behind and follow the preacher. A decidedly inhuman request. As is the rule to love one's neighbor like yourself. A demand that is impossible to fulfill. Self love (not narcissism) is a basic requirement to love others. Not the other way around.
Besides that, the command to not covet one's oxen, donkeys and wives shows us clearly the mindset of the time. To put women in the same category as chattel and domesticated animals is a sure indictment of the chauvinistic, patriarchal nature of religion. I mean family wasn't the primary concern of religion at any time.
Quote from: reasonist on May 30, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
Besides that, the command to not covet one's oxen, donkeys and wives shows us clearly the mindset of the time.
The sheep were nervous.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 30, 2016, 01:40:51 PM
The sheep were nervous.
As well they should. At least, so I've been told.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 30, 2016, 02:56:07 PM
As well they should. At least, so I've been told.
I am told that in the Northwest, the sheep are affectionately known as "Montana Showgirls." Riding the fence line on the many ranches in this area can take weeks, therefore the sheep are always wearing Frederick's of Hollywoods latest attire.
"'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion." (Leviticus 18:23)
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 30, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
I am told that in the Northwest, the sheep are affectionately known as "Montana Showgirls." Riding the fence line on the many ranches in this area can take weeks, therefore the sheep are always wearing Frederick's of Hollywoods latest attire.
"'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion." (Leviticus 18:23)
Just think of all those sheep ranchers and shepherds that are going to hell--bet they have a special corner just for them. :))
The mythical bible Jesus was no more peaceful than Randy Carson having an IQ level above 10. Mike, lest you forget this very telling example as well of the TRUE Jesus modus operandi, to wit: JESUS CONDONES KILLING OF CHILDREN! Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. Jesus defends Himself by attacking them in a quid pro quo stance for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment; "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15: 3-4).
The “command†that Jesus was referring too and that was in effect at His time was when Moses said: “Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
You have found one of the many examples of Jesus being gay when you posted the Luke 22:36 verse; "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." If this verse stated by Jesus doesn't have gay overtones, then I don't know what does!
As a man who grew up with sheepherders in sheep country, I consider myself the forum expert in nervous sheep. Brokeback Mountain? Nah. when you got all them warm, furry, anatomically correct critters around?
Sorry Mike. Back to the OP. :biggrin:
Quote from: stromboli on May 30, 2016, 04:14:34 PM
As a man who grew up with sheepherders in sheep country, I consider myself the forum expert in nervous sheep. Brokeback Mountain? Nah. when you got all them warm, furry, anatomically correct critters around?
Sorry Mike. Back to the OP. :biggrin:
Hijack Away. :)))))) Don't know of a thread that isn't a mish-mash of all kinds of stuff.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 30, 2016, 03:33:04 PM
The mythical bible Jesus was no more peaceful than Randy Carson having an IQ level above 10. Mike, lest you forget this very telling example as well of the TRUE Jesus modus operandi, to wit: JESUS CONDONES KILLING OF CHILDREN! Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. Jesus defends Himself by attacking them in a quid pro quo stance for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment; "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15: 3-4).
The “command†that Jesus was referring too and that was in effect at His time was when Moses said: “Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
You have found one of the many examples of Jesus being gay when you posted the Luke 22:36 verse; "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." If this verse stated by Jesus doesn't have gay overtones, then I don't know what does!
People didn't have pockets until the Middle Ages. You had a coin purse or for really small change you kept it in your mouth under your tongue. The coins were really small, some as small as a grain of rice. So "gay" only in terms of sexually insecure 21st century men.
And not just execute children, but adults as well who curse their parents ... so be fair.
There are actual Greek-gay moments ... but you have to combine the canonical Gospel story of the Garden of Gethsemane with non-canonical Gospels. It implies that older man on younger man sex was part of the baptism. Some later sect's leaders mostly liked to deflower married women with money.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 30, 2016, 03:33:04 PM
The mythical bible Jesus was no more peaceful than Randy Carson having an IQ level above 10. Mike, lest you forget this very telling example as well of the TRUE Jesus modus operandi, to wit: JESUS CONDONES KILLING OF CHILDREN! Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. Jesus defends Himself by attacking them in a quid pro quo stance for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment; "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15: 3-4).
The “command†that Jesus was referring too and that was in effect at His time was when Moses said: “Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
You have found one of the many examples of Jesus being gay when you posted the Luke 22:36 verse; "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." If this verse stated by Jesus doesn't have gay overtones, then I don't know what does!
Jesus was never granted a sexuality by his followers. If you suggest that he even masturbated as a teenager you would likely be murdered.
Point is, the Jesus that people worship and love has little to do w/the biblical Jesus. Both are entirely made up, yes, but the Jesus of the public arena is a romantic - brave and good and kind and decent and honest and never putting a foot wrong. He's just so perfect. He's Lassie in human form.
Quote from: reasonist on May 30, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
True enough. What is disturbing about Jesus alleged demands is the urging of perfectly established members of society, with family, career or business, to leave everything behind and follow the preacher. A decidedly inhuman request. As is the rule to love one's neighbor like yourself. A demand that is impossible to fulfill. Self love (not narcissism) is a basic requirement to love others. Not the other way around.
Besides that, the command to not covet one's oxen, donkeys and wives shows us clearly the mindset of the time. To put women in the same category as chattel and domesticated animals is a sure indictment of the chauvinistic, patriarchal nature of religion. I mean family wasn't the primary concern of religion at any time.
There usually aren't American nuclear families in the world, let alone across history, and it is dying out in the US, as the post-WW II bonus runs dry. Individuals didn't count in most societies, it was the clan or tribe that counted. A clan is not a nuclear family, it is a large extended family including all the cousins. Romans originally didn't even have a family name, just a clan name. And yes it was patriarchal ... as in pater familias ... you do as he says, or he makes you sleep with the fishes. The oldest and meanest male member of the clan ... until some family member or other clan assassinated you.
The love thing is distorted by English ... which of three words for "love" was Jesus using in that quote? Philos was brotherly love only. The community, women, children can take care of themselves.
The Cynics were the original pagan dropouts from society. The first one lived in a barrel and ate with dogs.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 30, 2016, 03:33:04 PM
The mythical bible Jesus was no more peaceful than Randy Carson having an IQ level above 10. Mike, lest you forget this very telling example as well of the TRUE Jesus modus operandi, to wit: JESUS CONDONES KILLING OF CHILDREN! Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. Jesus defends Himself by attacking them in a quid pro quo stance for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment; "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15: 3-4).
The “command†that Jesus was referring too and that was in effect at His time was when Moses said: “Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
That is one of the commands that Jesus says is still in effect. So, off with their tiny heads!
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 30, 2016, 03:33:04 PM
You have found one of the many examples of Jesus being gay when you posted the Luke 22:36 verse; "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one." If this verse stated by Jesus doesn't have gay overtones, then I don't know what does!
I do remember hearing of this idea before. I think that in the Secret Gospel of Mark, there is a scene that suggests he may have been gay--or at least had sex as part of baptism, or something of the sort.
And, of course, I could have posted a list of verses that show that Jesus is a man of peace; beating your swords into plowshares, or something like it.
And there is the Jesus of the poor--sell all and follow god--sort of thing.
And a couple of temper tantrums I forgot was the money changers in the Temple--got physical with them; did not read of any cheek turning in that scene.
Jesus, just like the rest of the fictional christian history and story, can be used to back any kind of jesus character one wants. A very handy book, the bible.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 30, 2016, 11:53:35 AM
If the fictional man Jesus were real, would I like to hang around the guy? Not really. If one reads carefully about what this man of peace is saying, I want nothing doing with the guy; he can't seem to make up his mind about much. For example, the man of peace says this:
John 15:6 â€" “If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.â€
Luke 12:47 â€" “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.â€
Mark 14:3-7 â€" “3While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. 4Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, ‘Why this waste of perfume? 5It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.’ And they rebuked her harshly. 6‘Leave her alone,’ said Jesus. ‘Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.7The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.'â€
Matthewâ€,8:32 â€" “He said to them, ‘Go!’ So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.â€
Mark 11:13-14 â€" “Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, ‘May no one ever eat fruit from you again.’ And his disciples heard him say it.â€
(Matthew 10:34-36)--"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."
(Luke 12:51,52)--"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three . . . "
(Luke 22:36)--"And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11
Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Not my kind of dude! No wonder christians really are amoral--they really do think they can do whatever they want and that is cool with their fictional gods.
I'm sorry, but even taking all those writings completely out of context like you did still doesn't work to paint Jesus as amoral or immoral.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 30, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
True enough. What is disturbing about Jesus alleged demands is the urging of perfectly established members of society, with family, career or business, to leave everything behind and follow the preacher. A decidedly inhuman request. As is the rule to love one's neighbor like yourself. A demand that is impossible to fulfill. Self love (not narcissism) is a basic requirement to love others. Not the other way around.
Besides that, the command to not covet one's oxen, donkeys and wives shows us clearly the mindset of the time. To put women in the same category as chattel and domesticated animals is a sure indictment of the chauvinistic, patriarchal nature of religion. I mean family wasn't the primary concern of religion at any time.
That's not completely true. He Said if a man didn't uphold his family duties that he would be in bad shape to say the least.
The call for asceticism is for disciples. And you are to care for those in need. That includes family of they are in need.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 12:23:30 AM
That's not completely true. He Said if a man didn't uphold his family duties that he would be in bad shape to say the least.
The call for asceticism is for disciples. And you are to care for those in need. That includes family of they are in need.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I too have a beautiful vision of the future. It's just not so superstitious and gullible.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 05, 2016, 01:16:09 AM
I too have a beautiful vision of the future. It's just not so superstitious and gullible.
I'm not superstitious or gullible. Those are traits that are falsely given by people who stereotype others.
If you think you aren't falsely stereotyping me then perhaps you could show my superstition and gullibility through some q and a or something.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 12:18:49 AM
I'm sorry, but even taking all those writings completely out of context like you did still doesn't work to paint Jesus as amoral or immoral.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Pops, you are blinded by your 'faith'--and in that respect you are no different than any other theist. Your fictional god, jesus can be made to say anything by using various quotes he is supposed to have made in that fiction you call the bible. Why is that? Because that fiction was cobbled together from a collection of writings by people with a political agenda. Read the excluded material and jesus becomes even more bizarre; I mean killing a playmate for using some of his mud????? But then, why not--it is basically a religious novel of that day.
You are correct in saying that jesus is neither amoral or immoral; the people who fashion their world using jesus quotes are the amoral or immoral ones. Not everybody who uses the jesus quotes are immoral or amoral, but I'd say the Joel Osteen's or the Pat Robertson's or the Ben Carson's of the world are the immoral ones.
"Out of context'--the defense of the theist blinded by their own belief and faith that they will make up any and every excuse to show that what they don't like is taken out of context. You, my friend, are out of context.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 09:22:45 AM
Pops, you are blinded by your 'faith'--and in that respect you are no different than any other theist. Your fictional god, jesus can be made to say anything by using various quotes he is supposed to have made in that fiction you call the bible. Why is that? Because that fiction was cobbled together from a collection of writings by people with a political agenda. Read the excluded material and jesus becomes even more bizarre; I mean killing a playmate for using some of his mud????? But then, why not--it is basically a religious novel of that day.
You are correct in saying that jesus is neither amoral or immoral; the people who fashion their world using jesus quotes are the amoral or immoral ones. Not everybody who uses the jesus quotes are immoral or amoral, but I'd say the Joel Osteen's or the Pat Robertson's or the Ben Carson's of the world are the immoral ones.
"Out of context'--the defense of the theist blinded by their own belief and faith that they will make up any and every excuse to show that what they don't like is taken out of context. You, my friend, are out of context.
I don't consider the Christ to be equal to the One Creator GOD firstly. Past that I have read the Gnostic and apocryphal writings. I agree that some were most definitely forgeries written to strengthen the story of Jesus.
I'm not blinded by anything as I don't base my Faith off of the beliefs of others or their doctrines.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
No one would really want to hang around this Jesus dude. As the scriptures suggests, he orders people around and people scatter to meet to his orders. Like slaves.
Imagine having to cater to what your friend asks of you like that in this era.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 04:19:23 AM
If you think you aren't falsely stereotyping me then perhaps you could show my superstition and gullibility through some q and a or something.
If you believe in a god and follow a religion, you are superstitious and gullible. If you are converting and encouraging people to a belief system, then you are guilty of manipulation. Even if you claim your brand of mass hysteria and it's instruction manual is a kinder gentler cult, it's still a cult.
You can get the same effect of rules, consequences, and life avoidance playing a board game. However, board games don't warp humanity.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 05, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
If you believe in a god and follow a religion, you are superstitious and gullible. If you are converting and encouraging people to a belief system, then you are guilty of manipulation. Even if you claim your brand of mass hysteria and it's instruction manual is a kinder gentler cult, it's still a cult.
You can get the same effect of rules, consequences, and life avoidance playing a board game. However, board games don't warp humanity.
But WoW is real, right? ;-)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 05, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
If you believe in a god and follow a religion, you are superstitious and gullible. If you are converting and encouraging people to a belief system, then you are guilty of manipulation. Even if you claim your brand of mass hysteria and it's instruction manual is a kinder gentler cult, it's still a cult.
You can get the same effect of rules, consequences, and life avoidance playing a board game. However, board games don't warp humanity.
That's ridiculous given you nothing of what I believe.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 12:56:04 PM
That's ridiculous given you nothing of what I believe.
So, you don't believe in a god and follow a religion?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 09:32:51 AM
I don't consider the Christ to be equal to the One Creator GOD firstly. Past that I have read the Gnostic and apocryphal writings. I agree that some were most definitely forgeries written to strengthen the story of Jesus.
I'm not blinded by anything as I don't base my Faith off of the beliefs of others or their doctrines.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Not that I want to quibble, but when you say your 'faith' that means the core of what you think is right is not probable to anybody but you. So, yes, you are blinded by your faith--that is what faith means--you don't need anything in the way of proof to think something is right. That works for you, I guess, but leaves me cold.
If you have read some of the material that did not make the bible, then you must realize that jesus is a fiction and was crafted into the jesus that appears in the bible. Why would the gospel of mary, or the secret gospel of mark--or any other of the 85+ gospels that were floating out there--be left out??? The answer is very easy to see--because it suited the political purposes of those that crafted that collection of writings.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 12:56:04 PM
That's ridiculous given you nothing of what I believe.
quotes the babble, quotes jebus, quotes the OT……claims we no nothing of his beliefs…..sure….and he says we are the ones misinterpreting the babble.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 01:54:23 PM
quotes the babble, quotes jebus, quotes the OT……claims we no nothing of his beliefs…..sure….and he says we are the ones misinterpreting the babble.
There are many instances people discover religion to religion only to realize there's no God hanging out in the clouds. Constantine probably was talking about Cheeses and not Jesus at that time and the people misunderstood him.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 01:56:25 PM
There are many instances people discover religion to religion only to realize there's no God hanging out in the clouds. Constantine probably was talking about Cheeses and not Jesus at that time and the people misunderstood him.
You are from Singapore. Yet, your command of the language and the way you phrase things often crack me up! 'Cheeses and not Jesus........' :)))))))))))))))))))))))) Love it. I hope I did not give you the wrong impression by the question I asked if English was your second language. You have a strong command of the language and how to use humor that is the hallmark of English being your first language. In fact, I've often read people who only knew English, and they don't turn a phrase as well as you do. :) (Including myself all too often)
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 02:05:35 PM
You are from Singapore. Yet, your command of the language and the way you phrase things often crack me up! 'Cheeses and not Jesus........' :)))))))))))))))))))))))) Love it. I hope I did not give you the wrong impression by the question I asked if English was your second language. You have a strong command of the language and how to use humor that is the hallmark of English being your first language. In fact, I've often read people who only knew English, and they don't turn a phrase as well as you do. :) (Including myself all too often)
No worries. I didn't feel offended at all. :)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 05, 2016, 01:39:31 PM
So, you don't believe in a god and follow a religion?
I believe there is a GOD.
I don't follow any one religion though, or organized religion in general for that matter.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 02:35:46 PM
I believe there is a GOD.
I don't follow any one religion
I rest my case.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 01:50:57 PM
Not that I want to quibble, but when you say your 'faith' that means the core of what you think is right is not probable to anybody but you. So, yes, you are blinded by your faith--that is what faith means--you don't need anything in the way of proof to think something is right. That works for you, I guess, but leaves me cold.
If you have read some of the material that did not make the bible, then you must realize that jesus is a fiction and was crafted into the jesus that appears in the bible. Why would the gospel of mary, or the secret gospel of mark--or any other of the 85+ gospels that were floating out there--be left out??? The answer is very easy to see--because it suited the political purposes of those that crafted that collection of writings.
How is my faith or what I believe not probable for any other, especially when all religious texts I have read so far seem to, at least coincide with it? Remember; my personal faith wasn't derived from indoctrination or reading of scripture in any way.
And I don't doubt for one second that the writings chosen for the canon bible were chosen for reasons other than them being solely of the right influence alone.
It is obvious to all, (or should be), that the early Catholic church was responsible for much deception and many atrocities, so yeah, it's safe to say they had ulterior motives, at least in part, or higher up.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:04:47 PM
How is my faith or what I believe not probable for any other, especially when all religious texts I have read so far seem to, at least coincide with it? Remember; my personal faith wasn't derived from indoctrination or reading of scripture in any way.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
One thing all religion agrees on, no matter how many gods people acknowledge, there I always only one Devil.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 03:07:35 PM
One thing all religion agrees on, no matter how many gods people acknowledge, there I always only one Devil.
There are two directions. They are both within each of us.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:16:26 PM
There are two directions. They are both within each of us.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
That's interesting. I find I agree. But I would say that no person is good; or bad. Every aspect of a person could be measured on a sliding scale. One end is 'good' the other is 'bad'. I would suggest that in each and every instance for each and every act or thought, that slider goes up and down. All of us measure at a different level for each act or thought; and each and every time we do that act or thought. None are all good or all bad, but a collection of differing measurements on that scale.
The above has nothing to do with god. It is simply how we are constructed and what we learn from our societies.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:15:37 PM
That's interesting. I find I agree. But I would say that no person is good; or bad. Every aspect of a person could be measured on a sliding scale. One end is 'good' the other is 'bad'. I would suggest that in each and every instance for each and every act or thought, that slider goes up and down. All of us measure at a different level for each act or thought; and each and every time we do that act or thought. None are all good or all bad, but a collection of differing measurements on that scale.
The above has nothing to do with god. It is simply how we are constructed and what we learn from our societies.
You assert that it has nothing to do with GOD. That doesn't make it so. I assert that the very laws that bind all existence are of GOD, so to me, we are too.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
You assert that it has nothing to do with GOD. That doesn't make it so. I assert that the very laws that bind all existence are of GOD, so to me, we are too.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
So, of course you see it that way. Your faith demands it. You see god at every turn. I see god nowhere. I have never once seen anything from god--nothing. And I understand that that lack of evidence as evidence against there being a god. Put another way--I see as much evidence for Santa, The Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Faires as I do for any god. And you cannot prove to me that The Tooth Fairy does not exist.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 04:24:19 PM
You assert that it has nothing to do with GOD. That doesn't make it so. I assert that the very laws that bind all existence are of GOD, so to me, we are too.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I don't think it's God.
I believe it's our conscience that tells us which is wrong or right, and it is ourselves who decides whether to do the right thing or not.
Everyone has a conscience. Even those villagers who has never heard of God has it and they could still live harmoniously. So where is God present there? If God is present there, why do they not recognize God?
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 04:35:17 PM
I don't think it's God.
I believe it's our conscience that tells us which is wrong or right, and it is ourselves who decides whether to do the right thing or not.
Everyone has a conscience. Even those villagers who has never heard of God has it and they could still live harmoniously. So where is God present there? If God is present there, why do they not recognize God?
I agree. But where do you think our conscience comes from??
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:38:42 PM
I agree. But where do you think our conscience comes from??
It's as simple as, if I cut myself and I feel pain, why would I cut others? Unless I'm angry, of course.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:38:42 PM
But where do you think our conscience comes from??
Of all the things the internet, particularly Facebook, has brought us, is an amazing wonderful plethora of videos showing animals that are natural "enemies" actually living and enjoying and playing with each other because they were not raised to want to kill each other or to fear each other. Humans are simple animals as well. We are what we are taught to be.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 04:35:17 PM
I don't think it's God.
I believe it's our conscience that tells us which is wrong or right, and it is ourselves who decides whether to do the right thing or not.
Everyone has a conscience. Even those villagers who has never heard of God has it and they could still live harmoniously. So where is God present there? If God is present there, why do they not recognize God?
I believe it is the conscience too. Part of our very nature. Imparted to us by the creative force that gave the opportunity for all life.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 05:37:53 PM
Imparted to us by the creative force that gave the opportunity for all life
I find it rather disgusting that you think the life of an animal is to be forever in fear and it's meaning is to be ripped apart by another animal just so the second one can live. A real god could not stand to see a single animal tremble with fear, let along watch as it desperately struggled to free itself as its guts are being ripped open. Your god can go fuck himself.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 04:42:31 PM
It's as simple as, if I cut myself and I feel pain, why would I cut others? Unless I'm angry, of course.
What of those who like to cut themselves? Or inflict pain upon themselves?
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 05:45:32 PM
I find it rather disgusting that you think the life of an animal is to be forever in fear and it's meaning is to be ripped apart by another animal just so the second one can live. A real god could not stand to see a single animal tremble with fear, let along watch as it desperately struggled to free itself as its guts are being ripped open. Your god can go fuck himself.
Wow! Where did that come from? Life feeds on life. Even vegetarians eat life.
I'm really missing your point, except for that last bit.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
We are making some sort of progress.
Three of us with differing views all seem to agree that the conscience is an intricate, innate, significant part of being.
That's cool.
I don't care what type of bashing anyone has to say for the rest of the day. I'm glad we have come to some sort of agreement even if only on some small partial scale.
And Mike; I agree that your sliding scale explanation is more fitting.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 06:05:22 PM
Life feeds on life. Even vegetarians eat life.
Bullshit! A REAL god could create life that was not dependent upon killing other life. Your view of a REAL god is petty and pretty much validated by the idea that YOU are created in gods image which seems to suggest to you that you are special….a quid pro quo kind of petty self masturbating weirdness.
If there is nothing that a god cannot do, the first thing a real loving god would do, is allow life to live. Ergo, your god can go fuck itself.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 06:05:22 PM
Wow! Where did that come from? Life feeds on life. Even vegetarians eat life.
I'm really missing your point, except for that last bit.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Life feeds on life? Really? What life do plants eat? Or the plants and animals in the deep sea vents?
Nature for me is proof that no god exists. Nature is cruel. Many creatures do have to feed on life, as you say. They can only live is they rip the life out of something else that has it. That is how they gather the energy to live. That is natural--and a system that could not have been created by a loving god. To have made it so that all animals (including man) has to kill to gather energy is just plain sadistic and sick. Especially when there is another way to do it easily available--that god created as well. The sun. All life could have been built to use the energy from the sun instead of killing to gather it. But that would have been too easy--too kind for you blood thirsty, cruel, sadistic god.
Ah but Mike, are you a vegetarian? And why must G-d be loving? You don't take your cue from scripture, so why would you assume that?
So if you are not a vegetarian, do you enjoy ripping the life out of other living things? Are you as uncomfortable as I am being the spawn of Satan? Isn't assuming (ignore scripture for the moment) that G-d is loving, just a straw-man for you to knock down?
Ah but atm, aren't you special? I am not an atom, I am not a microbe, I am not a plant ... but I am a kind of animal. Isn't that special? I am a mobile individual, not a fixed coral polyp ... isn't that special too? You aren't a Mongolian shepherd in the Mongol Empire ... but you have Internet ... isn't that special? If none of this is special, show me the atoms, microbes, plants, coral reefs and medieval Mongolian shepherds ... that they have the Internet too.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 05:23:57 PM
Of all the things the internet, particularly Facebook, has brought us, is an amazing wonderful plethora of videos showing animals that are natural "enemies" actually living and enjoying and playing with each other because they were not raised to want to kill each other or to fear each other. Humans are simple animals as well. We are what we are taught to be.
In the mythical Heavenly Kingdom, there is no further killing or dying. Sounds pretty boring to me ;-) This is under the supposed tautology (denied by Indians) that you can't die more than once. But that depends on your model of personal time.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:38:42 PM
I agree. But where do you think our conscience comes from??
Conscience is a naturally developed (notice developed) form of socially supportive psychological homeostasis. Like any other organ of body or psychology, it has to be fed in order to develop, to avoid decay. What does a conscience eat?
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 03:07:35 PM
One thing all religion agrees on, no matter how many gods people acknowledge, there I always only one Devil.
Not quite true, in classical Hinduism, there is a whole class of anti-gods, who perform an admirable function. They are anti-heroes to the heroics of the regular gods. This was carried over in part into Buddhism, at least in the folk version. In Zoroastrianism however, the anti-gods are considered evil, not anti-heroes. And Abrahamic religions get their folk devil from that. In paganism there is a plethora of minor demons.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:16:26 PM
There are two directions. They are both within each of us.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Ah dualism ... not quite as overly simplistic as monism. Try pluralism as a hypothesis. It is so hard to judge philosophically ... where to draw the line ... per Einstein ... "make things as simple as possible but no simpler". When a suggestion is empty, it is called a platitude.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:29:04 PM
So, of course you see it that way. Your faith demands it. You see god at every turn. I see god nowhere. I have never once seen anything from god--nothing. And I understand that that lack of evidence as evidence against there being a god. Put another way--I see as much evidence for Santa, The Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, and Faires as I do for any god. And you cannot prove to me that The Tooth Fairy does not exist.
If G-d is everywhere, then G-d is nowhere. So in fact, you are saying the same thing, but both of you don't see what I see.
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
Ah but Mike, are you a vegetarian? And why must G-d be loving? You don't take your cue from scripture, so why would you assume that?
But why then worship a non loving god?
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
Ah but Mike, are you a vegetarian? And why must G-d be loving? You don't take your cue from scripture, so why would you assume that?
So if you are not a vegetarian, do you enjoy ripping the life out of other living things? Are you as uncomfortable as I am being the spawn of Satan? Isn't assuming (ignore scripture for the moment) that G-d is loving, just a straw-man for you to knock down?
(/quote]
It would be a lot less cruel 'creator' if so many species wouldn't be just part of the food chain. Including us. It would be a lot more sensible to to only eat fruits, veggies and nuts. That's how our ancestors ate. Our useless appendix is proof of that. So couldn't the 'designer' just made us all vegetarian, no killing, just growing?
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
Bullshit! A REAL god could create life that was not dependent upon killing other life. Your view of a REAL god is petty and pretty much validated by the idea that YOU are created in gods image which seems to suggest to you that you are special….a quid pro quo kind of petty self masturbating weirdness.
If there is nothing that a god cannot do, the first thing a real loving god would do, is allow life to live. Ergo, your god can go fuck itself.
Life, on this planet, is extraordinarily similar, so much that the idea that all life was created by a god, exposes a seriously reality that god is incapable of anything but copy pasta. Consider how the life process is so monotonous, so boring, so similar in that majority of living creatures eat breath and excrete nearly exactly the same. Breed the same way. God is terribly infantile and boring in his "design" stages. Each of us, every one of us, given the power god is supposed to have would make a world far better than this version.
In my world, rocks can talk and trees can walk and people can fuck just by poking someone on the shoulder and saying, "HI".
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
Bullshit! A REAL god could create life that was not dependent upon killing other life. Your view of a REAL god is petty and pretty much validated by the idea that YOU are created in gods image which seems to suggest to you that you are special….a quid pro quo kind of petty self masturbating weirdness.
If there is nothing that a god cannot do, the first thing a real loving god would do, is allow life to live. Ergo, your god can go fuck itself.
Life does live. Only man holds back the advancement of peaceable existence.
I can understand how one could have some sort of animosity towards Yahweh based on the misinterpreted writings of the law of Moses. But I don't really go off of the law of Moses so much as it is said to be with error or misinterpreted. I also have an issue claiming any one name for GOD to be better than another especially seeing as how the writings about that particular name or character of GOD don't line up with what I feel I know on an innermost level.
I think the literal interpretation of most of that law is wrong. I think the literal sacrifice of another life is wrong. I've read parts in religious writings that suggests that eating meat should be done more so out of necessity or special occasion. I can't tell you why more complex life has to devour other life to live, but I can say that it doesn't have to be to the extreme it is now. That doesn't make GOD unjust to me though. Everything dies.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 06:28:35 PM
Life feeds on life? Really? What life do plants eat? Or the plants and animals in the deep sea vents?
Nature for me is proof that no god exists. Nature is cruel. Many creatures do have to feed on life, as you say. They can only live is they rip the life out of something else that has it. That is how they gather the energy to live. That is natural--and a system that could not have been created by a loving god. To have made it so that all animals (including man) has to kill to gather energy is just plain sadistic and sick. Especially when there is another way to do it easily available--that god created as well. The sun. All life could have been built to use the energy from the sun instead of killing to gather it. But that would have been too easy--too kind for you blood thirsty, cruel, sadistic god.
Yeah we could all be plants I guess, but that would really hinder our potential.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 07:04:10 PM
Ah dualism ... not quite as overly simplistic as monism. Try pluralism as a hypothesis. It is so hard to judge philosophically ... where to draw the line ... per Einstein ... "make things as simple as possible but no simpler". When a suggestion is empty, it is called a platitude.
I have thought quite a bit about the suggestion I made. I have experienced both sides to widely varied degrees. For me to associate more than two sides to opposing forces seams pointless. I will, however, admit that technically, based on my own experience, there seem to be three sides, but that one is of chaos or an observer and as such isn't really an opposing force to anything in and of itself. This chaos is potential.
In my humble opinion.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
Ah but Mike, are you a vegetarian? And why must G-d be loving? You don't take your cue from scripture, so why would you assume that?
So if you are not a vegetarian, do you enjoy ripping the life out of other living things? Are you as uncomfortable as I am being the spawn of Satan? Isn't assuming (ignore scripture for the moment) that G-d is loving, just a straw-man for you to knock down?
Vegetarian? Nope. But then, vegs have life too and in order to eat them you must rip the life from them--just like the animals I ingest. I am a human animal. I have no choice but to kill to live. That is simply the way it is. So, I don't get worked up about it; would I prefer another way to gather energy? Sure--but that is simply fantasy.
I have seen no evidence of either a good or bad god. The instant I find some evidence, either way, I guess I'll change my mind about god or no god. I don't know about you (well, yes I do--you came from your parents, too), but satan did not create me--my parents did; in that same old fun fill old fashion way humans have always made babies. Satan is just another fiction theists love to trot out. Same as god--a fiction. Is god a straw-man? No, god(s) are a fiction. I know you think god exists and is not a sugar daddy in the sky. You believe that, I know not why. But I would wager any amount that you believe in your god from anecdotal evidence, which is good enough to prove to you that your god is real--but it is not the type of evidence you can produce for us to test. That's fine with me, but I will still assert that god is a fiction.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 08:00:16 PM
Yeah we could all be plants I guess, but that would really hinder our potential.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
What???? We could all be plants. What does that have to do with anything????? The point: Plants do not need life to live--which is the opposite of what you posted earlier. Your creator god created a duel system of maintaining life. In one system, you don't need life to gather energy from, but minerals and/or heat. In the other way, one gains energy by taking it from another by eating it. See that??? Two ways--each different than the other. Since your god is so fucking wonderful and can do whatever his little heart wants to, he could create plants that think--or animals that plant themselves into the ground--the point being, he could have done whatever he wanted to. So, the assumption has to be that he did what he wanted to and made humans need to kill to live. Yet, according to your wonderful fucking scriptures, Thou Shalt Not Kill is one of the commandments or rule we are to live by. But we can't, because god created us so that we have to kill to live--and it is a major sin to commit suicide. So, what is a human to do in your sick system? Kill, and that is a sin. So, yeah, all men are sinners. And only god can forgive you for sinning--yet he made it impossible not to sin. What a fucked up in the head god you have!
So, pops, are there not two different ways of gathering energy working on this planet??????? could you answer directly for once???
What does your god have to say about why that is???????????????????????
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 07:58:22 PM
Life does live. Only man holds back the advancement of peaceable existence.
Everything dies.
The stupidity of that is epic. If a real god existed, death would be a useful pawn. Instead of a hell, one merely is threatened with death. You see, a real god could easily grant immorality as easily as blowing his nose. But since humans concocted the bull shit babble and they are fully aware that death claim all, they had to come up with another method of deterring dis-belief. Are you really this stupid or just acting at it, cause your really good at it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
What???? We could all be plants. What does that have to do with anything????? The point: Plants do not need life to live--which is the opposite of what you posted earlier. Your creator god created a duel system of maintaining life. In one system, you don't need life to gather energy from, but minerals and/or heat. In the other way, one gains energy by taking it from another by eating it. See that??? Two ways--each different than the other. Since your god is so fucking wonderful and can do whatever his little heart wants to, he could create plants that think--or animals that plant themselves into the ground--the point being, he could have done whatever he wanted to. So, the assumption has to be that he did what he wanted to and made humans need to kill to live. Yet, according to your wonderful fucking scriptures, Thou Shalt Not Kill is one of the commandments or rule we are to live by. But we can't, because god created us so that we have to kill to live--and it is a major sin to commit suicide. So, what is a human to do in your sick system? Kill, and that is a sin. So, yeah, all men are sinners. And only god can forgive you for sinning--yet he made it impossible not to sin. What a fucked up in the head god you have!
So, pops, are there not two different ways of gathering energy working on this planet??????? could you answer directly for once???
What does your god have to say about why that is???????????????????????
Indeed there is more than one way to gather energy in order to sustain physical life. And indeed each of us have an option to not kill other animal life.
I cannot speak for why GOD chose to make things in such a way. But If energy cannot be created or destroyed and one can view all life as one unit striving to continue then we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet. Maybe we will be wholly different from what we are now, and now, and the past are just a means to an end.
I don't claim to know all of the will of GOD or the reasoning behind it.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 09:42:14 PM
The stupidity of that is epic. If a real god existed, death would be a useful pawn. Instead of a hell, one merely is threatened with death. You see, a real god could easily grant immorality as easily as blowing his nose. But since humans concocted the bull shit babble and they are fully aware that death claim all, they had to come up with another method of deterring dis-belief. Are you really this stupid or just acting at it, cause your really good at it.
I don't prescribe to the notion of eternal hell or a reward system. Fear is a tactic of man to control the masses. As is the concept of eternal damnation in my opinion.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 09:52:14 PM
I don't prescribe to the notion of eternal hell or a reward system. Fear is a tactic of man to control the masses. As is the concept of eternal damnation in my opinion.
The whole concept of religion is based on a reward/punishment paradigm. So you don't prescribe to a fundamental tenet of religion?
QuoteFear is a tactic of man to control the masses.
Well no shit Sherlock. That is why they wrote it into their holy books.
QuoteAs is the concept of eternal damnation in my opinion.
You just basically said you are not religious. You ought to review your posts. You apparently are contradicting yourself.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 12:18:49 AM
I'm sorry, but even taking all those writings completely out of context like you did still doesn't work to paint Jesus as amoral or immoral.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
It's not as difficult to tell when someone is taking someone's words out of context as theist seem to think it is. If you read the whole chapter, and the original quote still seems to say the same thing, it's not out of context. Too often, theists use this "out of context" excuse to dismiss the legitimacy of others' points. I've even seen two Christians do it to each other. It's hilarious. All it means is that you don't like his interpretation.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 05, 2016, 10:34:25 PM
It's not as difficult to tell when someone is taking someone's words out of context as theist seem to think it is. If you read the whole chapter, and the original quote still seems to say the same thing, it's not out of context. Too often, theists use this "out of context" excuse to dismiss the legitimacy of others' points. I've even seen two Christians do it to each other. It's hilarious. All it means is that you don't like his interpretation.
I agree wholly. At times I will go into neighboring chapters as well.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 05:37:53 PM
I believe it is the conscience too. Part of our very nature. Imparted to us by the creative force that gave the opportunity for all life.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
How does God even fit into the picture?
And why would he even implant a conscience into us. Do you really think God has a conscience? If youre forever just "God God God"-ing I think its better to pray to a human being instead.
Mainly because, human beings are born into the world with a conscience to know what is right and what is wrong. How it feels to love and care for another person. But your God, however you put it is completely lacking in that sense. So this is to say, God created human beings and taught us something he doesn't know. It's like a crab teaching it's child to walk straight.
Pops--Indeed there is more than one way to gather energy in order to sustain physical life. And indeed each of us have an option to not kill other animal life.
Mike--Different? I guess you could say that. You live on a planet in which some organisms can live without killing and other organisms cannot. Quite startling, don't you think? But you really don't want to be bothered to think about it or what god has to do with any of it or why. I can understand--god works in mysterious ways. Pathetic god and pathetic reasoning.
Pops--I cannot speak for why GOD chose to make things in such a way. But If energy cannot be created or destroyed and one can view all life as one unit striving to continue then we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet.
Mike--All life is not one unit. Never was and never will be. The only thing life is striving for is to live. Each and every species has and and will continue to live in any way it can. Each species is part of a system, but there is no universal, in unison striving for life. It is a kill or die world (except for most plants--and they strive to fill up as much space as they can any way they can) because that is the system that evolved--or was created by your fictional god. But you don't want to be bothered with thinking about such stuff. When you say--we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet. What does that even mean??????????????
Pops--Maybe we will be wholly different from what we are now, and now, and the past are just a means to an end.
Mike--What??????????????????????????????
Pops--I don't claim to know all of the will of GOD or the reasoning behind it.
Mike--What part of god's will do you know and how do you know it???
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 05, 2016, 11:06:08 PM
How does God even fit into the picture?
And why would he even implant a conscience into us. Do you really think God has a conscience? If youre forever just "God God God"-ing I think its better to pray to a human being instead.
Mainly because, human beings are born into the world with a conscience to know what is right and what is wrong. How it feels to love and care for another person. But your God, however you put it is completely lacking in that sense. So this is to say, God created human beings and taught us something he doesn't know. It's like a crab teaching it's child to walk straight.
How can you say that GOD(the creator of all that is good and just) who is all knowing and all powerful is without knowledge of love or empathy or mercy or anything else for that matter?
Praying or praising a mere man opens the door for many deceitful, prideful, insideous, wholly wrong things to me.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 06, 2016, 12:02:01 AM
How can you say that GOD(the creator of all that is good and just) who is all knowing and all powerful is without knowledge of love or empathy or mercy or anything else for that matter?
Praying or praising a mere man opens the door for many deceitful, prideful, insideous, wholly wrong things to me.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Same as for God then I suppose. I don't see any real prove of God's love in this century.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Pops--Indeed there is more than one way to gather energy in order to sustain physical life. And indeed each of us have an option to not kill other animal life.
Mike--Different? I guess you could say that. You live on a planet in which some organisms can live without killing and other organisms cannot. Quite startling, don't you think? But you really don't want to be bothered to think about it or what god has to do with any of it or why. I can understand--god works in mysterious ways. Pathetic god and pathetic reasoning.
Pops--I cannot speak for why GOD chose to make things in such a way. But If energy cannot be created or destroyed and one can view all life as one unit striving to continue then we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet.
Mike--All life is not one unit. Never was and never will be. The only thing life is striving for is to live. Each and every species has and and will continue to live in any way it can. Each species is part of a system, but there is no universal, in unison striving for life. It is a kill or die world (except for most plants--and they strive to fill up as much space as they can any way they can) because that is the system that evolved--or was created by your fictional god. But you don't want to be bothered with thinking about such stuff. When you say--we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet. What does that even mean??????????????
Pops--Maybe we will be wholly different from what we are now, and now, and the past are just a means to an end.
Mike--What??????????????????????????????
Pops--I don't claim to know all of the will of GOD or the reasoning behind it.
Mike--What part of god's will do you know and how do you know it???
I'm open to think on anything whatsoever. I don't really get what it is you are trying to say.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 06, 2016, 12:06:03 AM
Same as for God then I suppose. I don't see any real prove of God's love in this century.
I agree. It's hard to see in our current state on a global level.
I have witnessed it on a smaller scale though as have others with me.
It's hard to see based on he actions of man.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 11:40:19 PM
Pops--Indeed there is more than one way to gather energy in order to sustain physical life. And indeed each of us have an option to not kill other animal life.
Mike--Different? I guess you could say that. You live on a planet in which some organisms can live without killing and other organisms cannot. Quite startling, don't you think? But you really don't want to be bothered to think about it or what god has to do with any of it or why. I can understand--god works in mysterious ways. Pathetic god and pathetic reasoning.
Pops--I cannot speak for why GOD chose to make things in such a way. But If energy cannot be created or destroyed and one can view all life as one unit striving to continue then we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet.
Mike--All life is not one unit. Never was and never will be. The only thing life is striving for is to live. Each and every species has and and will continue to live in any way it can. Each species is part of a system, but there is no universal, in unison striving for life. It is a kill or die world (except for most plants--and they strive to fill up as much space as they can any way they can) because that is the system that evolved--or was created by your fictional god. But you don't want to be bothered with thinking about such stuff. When you say--we can perhaps live more responsibly and understand that our responsibility and potential go hand in hand. We haven't met our potential yet. What does that even mean??????????????
Pops--Maybe we will be wholly different from what we are now, and now, and the past are just a means to an end.
Mike--What??????????????????????????????
Pops--I don't claim to know all of the will of GOD or the reasoning behind it.
Mike--What part of god's will do you know and how do you know it???
The only way we will advance in peaceable, profitable existence for all life is to unify.
Again, I'll discuss whatever you want. And I'm not against evolution or the adaptation of life in order to continue life based on changes in habitat and time.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Pops--How can you say that GOD(the creator of all that is good and just) who is all knowing and all powerful is without knowledge of love or empathy or mercy or anything else for that matter?
Mike--Because there is no evidence of his love, or empathy or mercy or anything else. And you can't have it all one way--your creator god created everything--all the good and all the evil. Or he created nothing. In your view god created all--and that means all that is horrid as well as good. If you examine your god in that light there is only one conclusion one can reach--that your god is a mighty sick being!!
Pops--Praying or praising a mere man opens the door for many deceitful, prideful, insideous, wholly wrong things to me.
Mike--Praying or praising a mere god opens the door for many deceitful, prideful, insideous, wholly wrong things to me.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 06, 2016, 12:08:30 AM
I agree. It's hard to see in our current state on a global level.
I have witnessed it on a smaller scale though as have others with me.
It's hard to see based on he actions of man.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I have seen too during my believer years, but now looking back, everything had a logical explanation. Meaning to say, if it were the work of God, God is only able to manifest himself in situations where it doesn't require much efforts.
A god manifest in one place, to one people - forgetting all the other gods manifest in other places to other people ... Had Christians not done such a good job of destroying the record and such a bad job of teaching history, we'd not be in this boat.
It's a tiresome story. It's silly. It's boring. It's pretentious. Really, it's just plain nonsense.
That said, most of the rest of the World is hardly better. Nearly all humans are in thrall to one form of ridiculousness or another.
It's hardly in the interests of the ruling elite for it to be otherwise, for it's ever so convenient to get people whipped up about their faith whenever resources are at stake, the recent wars in the Middle East being obvious examples. People won't fight to the death for crude, but they will fight to the death for Allah.
Well, I'm sick of it. I don't think that much can be done about it, really. People like this shit. It allows them to live in la-la land.
I've heard people talking, and I've heard what comes out of their mouths. Grown people who believe in ghosts. Grown people who insist that their dead ancestors "touched" their shoulders. Grown people who sit at home and watch while some nincompoop stumbles about in a basement w/a camcorder looking for a "spirit" that isn't there, "Oh, what was that?" It was the wind, stupid. Any architect could have told you so. Old buildings creak and groan and have drafts. They settle on their foundations and make noises - especially at night when it's QUIET. ALL buildings have areas where the temperatures vary by several degrees. Hello?!
But people want to believe. So, let them. Fuck em.
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 06:49:46 PM
Ah but Mike, are you a vegetarian? And why must G-d be loving? You don't take your cue from scripture, so why would you assume that?
So if you are not a vegetarian, do you enjoy ripping the life out of other living things? Are you as uncomfortable as I am being the spawn of Satan? Isn't assuming (ignore scripture for the moment) that G-d is loving, just a straw-man for you to knock down?
----------------
Reasonist:
It would be a lot less cruel 'creator' if so many species wouldn't be just part of the food chain. Including us. It would be a lot more sensible to to only eat fruits, veggies and nuts. That's how our ancestors ate. Our useless appendix is proof of that. So couldn't the 'designer' just made us all vegetarian, no killing, just growing?
A god as my creation, is as cruel as I am ;-( And have I ever said I worship? Again, too many stereotypes.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 07:53:52 PM
Life, on this planet, is extraordinarily similar, so much that the idea that all life was created by a god, exposes a seriously reality that god is incapable of anything but copy pasta. Consider how the life process is so monotonous, so boring, so similar in that majority of living creatures eat breath and excrete nearly exactly the same. Breed the same way. God is terribly infantile and boring in his "design" stages. Each of us, every one of us, given the power god is supposed to have would make a world far better than this version.
In my world, rocks can talk and trees can walk and people can fuck just by poking someone on the shoulder and saying, "HI".
People do create that ... it is called children's TV ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 08:00:16 PM
Yeah we could all be plants I guess, but that would really hinder our potential.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Down with Venus Fly Traps, Pitcher Plants and Sundews! Yes, plants aren't violent ... just slower than animals.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 08:06:52 PM
I have thought quite a bit about the suggestion I made. I have experienced both sides to widely varied degrees. For me to associate more than two sides to opposing forces seams pointless. I will, however, admit that technically, based on my own experience, there seem to be three sides, but that one is of chaos or an observer and as such isn't really an opposing force to anything in and of itself. This chaos is potential.
In my humble opinion.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Good theology. For me, G-d is potentiality, the great enabler (and thus primary creator). Humans in particular, are actuality (and thus secondary creators). Our view of reality has to be the view of psychology. In Greek theater, there is the protagonist, the antagonist and the chorus. Usually the chorus acts as the observer/narrator. But there isn't much a play unless there is both an antagonist and and protagonist. And who is who? Creon or Antigone?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 09:22:35 PM
Vegetarian? Nope. But then, vegs have life too and in order to eat them you must rip the life from them--just like the animals I ingest. I am a human animal. I have no choice but to kill to live. That is simply the way it is. So, I don't get worked up about it; would I prefer another way to gather energy? Sure--but that is simply fantasy.
I have seen no evidence of either a good or bad god. The instant I find some evidence, either way, I guess I'll change my mind about god or no god. I don't know about you (well, yes I do--you came from your parents, too), but satan did not create me--my parents did; in that same old fun fill old fashion way humans have always made babies. Satan is just another fiction theists love to trot out. Same as god--a fiction. Is god a straw-man? No, god(s) are a fiction. I know you think god exists and is not a sugar daddy in the sky. You believe that, I know not why. But I would wager any amount that you believe in your god from anecdotal evidence, which is good enough to prove to you that your god is real--but it is not the type of evidence you can produce for us to test. That's fine with me, but I will still assert that god is a fiction.
Plants don't have central nervous systems, so most of us know that they can't scream. Yes, America has to conquer the world ... we have no choice but to act on our predatory instincts, social Darwinism is our destiny. But then why fight Germany in WW II? Why block a fellow predator aside from hypocrisy? Puritans hate sex ... so from their POV (not mine) ... Satanic acts of parents produce Satanic children. And yes, my god is a fiction ... but I am fine with fiction ... my own life is the fiction I weave.
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 06, 2016, 12:06:03 AM
Same as for God then I suppose. I don't see any real prove of God's love in this century.
If you wish to find what is good, then look at the small scale, not the large scale. And do some good yourself, and reflect on that ;-)
Quote from: Pipu.Diiding on June 06, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
I have seen too during my believer years, but now looking back, everything had a logical explanation. Meaning to say, if it were the work of God, God is only able to manifest himself in situations where it doesn't require much efforts.
That is a start. If the G-d we seek is invisible (vs action), then we are blinded by nature. But if G-d acts thru people for instance ... the G-d is quite visible, but is only as moral or immoral as human actions. For many, in our pain of growing up, we reject the human (it is hard to accept) and in rejecting the human we embrace nature as a whole, of which man is a part. I choose to do the opposite ... but I don't accept G-d's actions. So there is a call to action on my part, to do less bad things and do more good things. When I do more good things, however futile it seems, then G-d is doing good thru me. Judgement, even of ourselves ... is a bad model. I judge actions, not people.
Maron1963 ... I have experienced the paranormal. Most of us have, but I recognize that it is subjective, not objective. Whether or not my pink grapefruit I am having for breakfast this morning is sweet or sour is subjective too, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Most of experience is ordinary, because it is so common. But that doesn't mean it isn't marvelous. Some experiences are extraordinary, but even if I can't share them directly, they are more marvelous.
Quote from: Baruch on June 06, 2016, 07:13:23 AM
That is a start. If the G-d we seek ...................
Yes, that is the start. I don't seek god or any god. Once upon a time I did. Not any more. If there is a god out there, then he/she/it will have to make itself manifest in my life. Otherwise god is a fiction. All that I see, all that I know, suggests that god is not real, but a fiction--on every level. For me that absence is proof there is no god.
Quote from: Baruch on June 06, 2016, 06:43:49 AM
A god as my creation, is as cruel as I am ;-( And have I ever said I worship? Again, too many stereotypes.
No, not you. Didn't say that. Didn't imply that. No stereotypes. It just makes no sense to worship a deity that is cruel.
A god as your creation? OK. I am a creationist. I believe that man created god. ;-)))
Quote from: reasonist on June 06, 2016, 10:02:29 AM
No, not you. Didn't say that. Didn't imply that. No stereotypes. It just makes no sense to worship a deity that is cruel.
A god as your creation? OK. I am a creationist. I believe that man created god. ;-)))
Consider dialectic however ... a relationship can be symmetrical even if unequal. It isn't just one directional. Yes indeed, all people are creationists, but we aren't all Creationists. This is why upper/lower case letters were invented. And in a sense, the potential isn't real, because it isn't actual. But isn't that just a metaphysical prejudice? But without potentiality, there wouldn't be any actuality .. or reality. In most secular contexts, the potentiality is called "one's nature". As a human being, I can do many things, potentially. But I won't actually do all of them. So then is my unrealized nature ... an unreality?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 06, 2016, 12:08:30 AM
I agree. It's hard to see in our current state on a global level.
I have witnessed it on a smaller scale though as have others with me.
It's hard to see based on he actions of man.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Isn't funny how the creatures who are created in God's image are the greatest evidence against God's infinitely good nature?
Quote from: Baruch on June 06, 2016, 06:51:17 PM
Consider dialectic however ... a relationship can be symmetrical even if unequal. It isn't just one directional. Yes indeed, all people are creationists, but we aren't all Creationists. This is why upper/lower case letters were invented. And in a sense, the potential isn't real, because it isn't actual. But isn't that just a metaphysical prejudice? But without potentiality, there wouldn't be any actuality .. or reality. In most secular contexts, the potentiality is called "one's nature". As a human being, I can do many things, potentially. But I won't actually do all of them. So then is my unrealized nature ... an unreality?
Nope--just an unused reality.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 06, 2016, 07:16:02 PM
Isn't funny how the creatures who are created in God's image are the greatest evidence against God's infinitely good nature?
Think of the substance used
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
popsthebuilder,
What was the "substance" used to create animals by your Hebrew Christian God, Yahweh? More dust, maybe another rib from the male specie of a certain "kind" of animal? Whats the latest spin on this, and do you know what kind of "dust" is your ancestor?
Oh, forgot, I have an orange bridge for sale in San Francisco, are you interested? Its a great money maker, and I'll give you good terms!
It's better that we're made out of dust than made from preceding primates ... Somehow dust is better than primates ... That makes good sense. I like dust. It tells me how long it's been since I did any housekeeping.