Yep, you probably heard it around, but its offical, according to the current marvel writer for the new captain america comic, but steve rogers, the real captain america, is infact and has been all along a member of hydra:
http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4N5Qm7-AMXw/V0hc1oQKTbI/AAAAAAAAAHw/g2q5emBQMgo27udD-zLlr9iT9MfXaWkawCLcB/s1600/Captain.jpg)
Incase you didn't know, hydra has been a long time enemy of captain america, lead by the red skull and is kind of a offshot nazi organisation with its own agenda.
According to the writer of the book, Nick Spencer, who started work on the captain america series back in 2014, is saying that this captain america is not a clone, not mind manipulated, not an alternative reality version of him, but THE captain america, the canon one, whos comics people have been reading since 1940, when he faught against the nazis in his comics.
(http://comix4free.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/DIG000119._SX640_QL80_TTD_.jpg)
He was created by jack kirby and Joe Simon, who both were jewish, and at the time wanted to create a character who represented america idealism against the third reich.
So 75 years on, Nick Spencer says he's had this idea for several years now, and wants to basicly fuck up a character who for three quarters of a century has represented heroism, not just american heroism, but one who represents it as a standard (I've even got a captain america model in my room along with other marvel characters).
I think Chris Evans said it best.
(http://i.imgur.com/Mr1L4Ci.jpg)
Hail Hydra. :evil:
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 28, 2016, 07:20:44 PM
Hail Hydra. :evil:
(http://i.imgur.com/YMccBlT.png)
look what it made all the cats do..
I got over comic books in 1961.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjeOTpiUoAA0y47.jpg:large)
QuoteI got over comic books in 1961.
"Looks at calvin avatar* No you haven't, don't tell fibs.
Please, as if comic book writers haven't been bullshitting themselves out of tighter spots for decades. One of the alternatives will materialize as soon as Nick Spencer "moves on."
what an asshole
His nationalism was what I didn't like about Marvel. This is almost as good as Jar Jar being a Sith Lord.
I've been checking out the reactions online. One More Day has nothing on this. I shall read it and report back.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 28, 2016, 09:38:20 PM
His nationalism was what I didn't like about Marvel. This is almost as good as Jar Jar being a Sith Lord.
I desperately want Darth Jar Jar to be a thing.
I'm okay with whatever Marvel wants to do, provided they can do it
well.
Quote from: Munch on May 28, 2016, 07:41:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjeOTpiUoAA0y47.jpg:large)
"Looks at calvin avatar* No you haven't, don't tell fibs.
My wife picked that one out for me. Something about it being perfect...
Okay, I'm up to speed. It's actually not a bad comic. I think most of the flak is that we're so used to good ol' Cap that it's upsetting to see him go off the deep end like this. But good guys temporarily going evil isn't a new thing. And we all know that this isn't going to stick - it's going to be retconned out. So meh, my jimmies remain rustled.
Plus, I think I know the exact reason Steve's going full Hydra:
[spoiler]In his childhood, Steve's mum gets Chris Browned by his dad. But a mysterious woman intervenes, treats her to dinner, and invites her to a concerned citizens meeting while suggesting that she bring young Steve with her. She then hands Mrs Rogers a flyer with the hydra symbol on it.
It's almost certainly some sort of Manchurian candidate kind of thing. Dormant, long-term brainwashing. I know the creator said that's not it, but it sure looks like it. I'd bet my Darkhawk #25 that it'll turn out to be something like that. Plus, Cap made statements to the effect that he feels "like a stranger in his own body" and he looked a Hydra suicide bomber in the eyes and "nothing was there". Big red flag. Brainwashing. Final answer.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Munch on May 28, 2016, 07:41:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjeOTpiUoAA0y47.jpg:large)
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/126/601/759.jpg)
This one bugs me because in many of the older issues, Tony Stark stays away from the bottle. There's even a scene where he refuses alcohol, citing his alcholism and his fear that he'd relapse.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 29, 2016, 12:12:47 AM
Okay, I'm up to speed. It's actually not a bad comic. I think most of the flak is that we're so used to good ol' Cap that it's upsetting to see him go off the deep end like this. But good guys temporarily going evil isn't a new thing. And we all know that this isn't going to stick - it's going to be retconned out. So meh, my jimmies remain rustled.
Plus, I think I know the exact reason Steve's going full Hydra:
[spoiler]In his childhood, Steve's mum gets Chris Browned by his dad. But a mysterious woman intervenes, treats her to dinner, and invites her to a concerned citizens meeting while suggesting that she bring young Steve with her. She then hands Mrs Rogers a flyer with the hydra symbol on it.
It's almost certainly some sort of Manchurian candidate kind of thing. Dormant, long-term brainwashing. I know the creator said that's not it, but it sure looks like it. I'd bet my Darkhawk #25 that it'll turn out to be something like that. Plus, Cap made statements to the effect that he feels "like a stranger in his own body" and he looked a Hydra suicide bomber in the eyes and "nothing was there". Big red flag. Brainwashing. Final answer.[/spoiler]
As others have pointed out on other forums, hydra is the antithesis of everything captain America fought against, and going back to comics as early has the 70s shows it.
It's very obvious Nick Spencer has ignored 75 years of character, not bothered to look back at caps history while making this up, it all just creates such juicy spin for the comic.
Of course newspapers are now saying the nick Spencer is receiving death threats on Twitter, when really it's nothing more then people hoping he gets hit by a bus, which isn't a death threat to me.
I worry more about Hydra009 than any other Hydra.
But, where, exactly, is the Red Skull right now?
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 29, 2016, 12:36:57 AM
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/126/601/759.jpg)
This one bugs me because in many of the older issues, Tony Stark stays away from the bottle. There's even a scene where he refuses alcohol, citing his alcholism and his fear that he'd relapse.
Maybe its not the alcohol thing, its the part with him saying thanks.
Quote from: Nonsensei on May 29, 2016, 09:09:35 AMMaybe its not the alcohol thing, its the part with him saying thanks.
Touché.
Quote from: Munch on May 29, 2016, 04:17:02 AM
As others have pointed out on other forums, hydra is the antithesis of everything captain America fought against, and going back to comics as early has the 70s shows it.
It's very obvious Nick Spencer has ignored 75 years of character, not bothered to look back at caps history while making this up, it all just creates such juicy spin for the comic.
Of course newspapers are now saying the nick Spencer is receiving death threats on Twitter, when really it's nothing more then people hoping he gets hit by a bus, which isn't a death threat to me.
I think it's just the juicy spin thing. I'm pretty sure the writer knows that Cap fights nazis/hydra. It's hard to miss that. One of the variant covers is a recreation of the iconic Cap punching out Hitler cover. Plus, the comic has quite a lot of references to Cap's history. They're just going for shock value here. And since there's buzz and I'm reading a comic I would have otherwise ignored, it's definitely working.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 29, 2016, 08:43:46 AM
I worry more about Hydra009 than any other Hydra.
:P
QuoteBut, where, exactly, is the Red Skull right now?
He's in the US, rabble-rousing with nativist talking points very similar to typical conservative rhetoric. I suspect it is subtle political commentary on current attitudes towards immigration/immigrants.
meh, I remember a movie where superman went all ass-hole for about 90% of the movie and i remember a TV series where they killed off the character for an entire series and them brought him back via, "it was only a dream".
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 28, 2016, 10:58:34 PM
I desperately want Darth Jar Jar to be a thing.
Have you watched Episode i assuming it is a thing? I don't know how it can't be.
Quote from: aitm on May 29, 2016, 05:50:05 PM
meh, I remember a movie where superman went all ass-hole for about 90% of the movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yIpXdQmKDg
My GF is a Wonder Woman fan. We have this print on our living room wall.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/androidlove/16a4aabd55e9d4380598ab70da82c125_zpsh95qs30c.jpg)
I still enjoy the camp and beauty in the Linda Carter show. I like Batman 66 as well. It's nice to finally have DVDs.
I'll guess that Marvel's doing this to let DC think it has a chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVRptUJocAo
Before we completely segue to something else, I'd like to point out that Silver Age Cap briefly went nazi:
(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/skullorigin7.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160531/164a1da44a791fd1634b4e6c13c4e6a3.jpg)
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
(http://i.imgur.com/YKxtRq6.jpg)
I think we are going to get some peace when every beloved character loved by a random group gets to be questioned about being a Nazi or a some sort of a Hitler and finally there is no one left? How many left again?
Consequences of demonising a group into dimensions of a fantasy evil monsters by stripping from reality and seeing things through religous categories? Believers call it satan, seculars call it nazi, hitler... wohooooo...Is Vatican evil? is this evil? is this eeeeevııııııııııl?
There we go.
(http://i.imgur.com/nBxjnnf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fusylqC.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZoAimBI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/rfK59bN.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/bMU5Ctr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0gcMbgM.jpg)
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 01, 2016, 01:55:11 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/0gcMbgM.jpg)
Sorry... don't understand the reference... :(
The only thing that^ reminds me is this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ySTR6-95L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 01, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Sorry... don't understand the reference... :(
RWBY reference. Initially, I thought it was a Gundam Wing reference, but I was mistaken.
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 01, 2016, 03:18:32 AM
RWBY reference. Initially, I thought it was a Gundam Wing reference, but I was mistaken.
I still haven't watched that. I've heard many good things about it. First from
@Hijiri Byakuren , then a lot of other people. I don't know why I haven't watched it yet...
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 01, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Sorry... don't understand the reference... :(
You need to watch RWBY, in that case.
My daughter likes RWBY, so I made her this paper doll for Yule.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/androidlove/005_zpslafli5ff.jpg)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 06, 2016, 01:42:38 AM
My daughter likes RWBY, so I made her this paper doll for Yule.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/androidlove/005_zpslafli5ff.jpg)
I hope the third season didn't traumatize her too much! They went from happy fun times (http://orig14.deviantart.net/f452/f/2015/351/8/3/happy_holidays___rwby_fanart_wallpaper_hd__by_terrahknight-d9kihvi.png) to "oh God why" (http://img01.deviantart.net/656c/i/2016/010/3/0/rwby___accident_happens____by_dishwasher1910-d9ni8xq.png) really damn quickly.
https://youtu.be/93xtez5j1vE?t=3m27s
(she starts talking about Cap's Hail Hydra moment 3m27s (https://youtu.be/93xtez5j1vE?t=3m27s) in)
I broadly agree, though I disagree that you can't have an opinion if you don't read or buy comics. I also don't understand the emphasis on it being fiction.
I do agree with her that comic book characters are dynamic - they have their ups and downs. Granted, this is one hell of a down, but in order to build him back up again, you have to make him hit a low point like this. Maybe this was a bit too much, but I guarantee it'll be retconned to be less damaging to Cap's established character.
I also agree that comics, despite their immense fame, boast surprisingly small sales figures (http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-04.html). We're talking sales in the hundred thousands for a few extremely well-received issues, but mostly in the tens of thousands or less. Comics companies rely on attention-grabbers like this to keep up sales numbers.
Also, the fandom gets bent out of shape far too easily.
In Iron Man #308, Tony Stark's body is taken over by an AI who 1) gets wasted, undoing years of rehab 2) tries to rape Tony's gf 3) goes on a murder spree in the Iron Man suit. The fallout from that was nothing compared to the fallout from this.
The community is way more brittle now and less accepting of change. The end result of this shift is a narrowing of the sweet spot between shocking (good reaction) and outrageous (bad reaction). The long-term consequences could be writers sticking to more conservative stories to not upset fans, generating duller and less interesting stories.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 06, 2016, 09:24:44 AM
I hope the third season didn't traumatize her too much!
Don't let the pink owl fool you. She's a happy goth.
Comic book writers know how to break characters. Most haven't figured out how to successfully fix them.
I think such a storyline could work if Cap somehow came to believe that he was already working for a terrorist organization â€"the US governmentâ€" and as such would come to accept that Hydra was the better deal after all. A few issues later, he would discover that he was being manipulated, and now has to live with that decision. It would become a character piece where even someone with lofty ideals and a genuinely good character can be bamboozled into doing acts against those ideals.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 06, 2016, 05:40:27 PM
Comic book writers know how to break characters. Most haven't figured out how to successfully fix them.
I've seen a lot of writers who love to break characters and what they represent, but never bring them back up from it. In comic books, they usually use a universal revamp and start over, wiping the slate clean, but in other genres, its obvious like with children, they like to build towers, enjoy knocking them over, but then ask and adult to rebuild said tower.
J. Michael Straczynski, made one more day, never apologized for it and never went to fixing it, leaving it to Joe Quesada to right what he wrote. In the lore of warcraft, Thrall was the badass leader of the horde, until blizzard had him leave the position, giving it to someone who (Garrosh), and having him go on some hippie shamanistic journey where he meet his wife and planned on having children, and even today people refer to him as green jesus because of this, even with the games writers doing a half arsed attempted at trying to make him somewhat like his old self again.
I follow the belief of if its not broke don't fix it. If stories about characters get samey, then stop writing about them, don't just change them out for something else.
I stand corrected, then: most comic book writers who break characters haven't figured out that they need to fix them.
RWBY is fanbased
For those of you seeking an update, I've read issue #2. The "hail hydra" moment wasn't like it appears. The Cap we know and love hasn't been ruined forever.
[spoiler]Cap is being manipulated by a sentient, humanoid cosmic cube controlled by Red Skull. Cap is acting the way he is because of false memories.
So those of us who said it was definitely some form of brainwashing (me) are absolutely correct. And those of you who knee-jerked about this apparent outrage before waiting to see how the story would play out should feel bad.[/spoiler]
C-O-M-I-C B-O-O-K
[spoiler][spoiler]Cap is being manipulated by a sentient, humanoid cosmic cube controlled by Red Skull. Cap is acting the way he is because of false memories.
So those of us who said it was definitely some form of brainwashing (me) are absolutely correct. And those of you who knee-jerked about this apparent outrage before waiting to see how the story would play out should feel bad.[/spoiler]
AH HAHAHA!! Oooooh thats priceless. some weeks ago when the story broke, the creator of the comic himself said 'this is not mind control or manipulation', and one issue later their backtracking, probably even prefering nobody heard them make the claim it was going to be manipulation.
QuoteNick Spender: “The one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.†Well, turns out it was some form of mind control.
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/06/marvel-backtracks-on-captain-america-revelation-af.html[/spoiler]
Next they'll be saying Steve and Bucky don't have a bromance going.
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 04, 2016, 02:29:28 AM
For those of you seeking an update, I've read issue #2. The "hail hydra" moment wasn't like it appears. The Cap we know and love hasn't been ruined forever.
[spoiler]Cap is being manipulated by a sentient, humanoid cosmic cube controlled by Red Skull. Cap is acting the way he is because of false memories.
So those of us who said it was definitely some form of brainwashing (me) are absolutely correct. And those of you who knee-jerked about this apparent outrage before waiting to see how the story would play out should feel bad.[/spoiler]
:banghead: Jesus, if you're going to be playing with a character like that, at least be clever about it. This... is not clever. I think I've seen this exact plot maybe four times before, that few because I put a pretty stringent filter on such things.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 04, 2016, 02:59:25 PM
:banghead: Jesus, if you're going to be playing with a character like that, at least be clever about it. This... is not clever. I think I've seen this exact plot maybe four times before, that few because I put a pretty stringent filter on such things.
its just the fact that people said it would be one thing, the writer saying 'nah, it isn't, really is isn't', and one issue later, it turns out to be just that. Thats just awful writing and dedication, making fan fiction works look more involved.
Technically, he's right it's the real steve and it's not exactly mind control. But there's little practical difference between taking control of someone's mind, forcing them to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do and giving someone false memories, causing them to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do.
So yes, it was a trick. Of course was a trick. Because it's always some kind of trick. It's not going to be a completely genuine sieg heil because that doesn't match the status quo. The status quo is god in comics. That's why I came down hard on the people freaking out about this, apparently not realizing it was a trick. They freaked out over nothing. And the writer allegedly got death threats over what was ultimately just a hackneyed plot twist.
Well fact of the matter is, since red skull has both charles xaviers brain and the cosmic cube, he can easily plant false memories into peoples minds, which is a form of mind control.
"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." - Obi Wan :P
But yeah, it's essentially mind control. The writer arguing otherwise was just splitting hairs. He clearly delivered a pretty weak twist, made all the more disappointing because of the outrage the story received at the onset.
But I'm still outraged by the outrage. It just really bothers me to see the torches and pitchforks come out mid-story and at the drop of a hat. That's not to say no one can have a critical opinion or give critical feedback, because of course they can. But from some of the tweets and articles about this, you'd think Nick Spenser flew the nazi flag over Joe Simon and Jack Kirby's graves and pissed on them for good measure. It's just such a huge overreaction.
I don't want this kind of thing to become a trend - with writers walking on eggshells because of the threat of internet blowback. Again, this isn't to say they can do no wrong, because clearly they can. But let's just wait to see how it'll play out and not jump the gun. Also, we can come up with more measured feedback than this (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/25/captain-america-writer-nick-spencer-gets-death-threats-on-social-media/).
We know that Jenny Walters isn't going to permanently lose the power of the She-Hulk, 'cuz the comic she's in is called Sensational She-Hulk â€" the title character is not going to permanently lose their hero status, for whatever reason. Captain America was eventually going to become a hero again, either because Steve Rodgers would be 'retired' and replaced with someone who is not Hydra, or he somehow regains his sanity and returns to being the ass-kicking boy scout we know and love. The status quo is not the problem; it's finding interesting ways to return to that status quo that's the problem.
I say again, Steve Rodgers being a Hydra sleeper agent all along would be an interesting story, if only the writers would find an interesting way to pull it off without cheap tricks. And this is what this is, a cheap trick. It's ham-fisted mind controlled nonsense that we've seen dozens of times before in some form, in Captain America, even. If Nick Spencer found a way to make a Hydra Sleeper Agent Captain America work as an entire story, it could have been a career-defining arc that would have guaranteed lifetime lovers of his future work. As such, he's just going to be one of those mediocre writers we've been getting as late. Disappointing. I still wait for the next Alan Moore.