http://mic.com/articles/125756/man-who-helped-kill-thousands-of-native-americans-to-be-made-a-saint-by-pope-francis-today#.XhqLd3HH4
QuotePope Francis landed in Washington, D.C., Tuesday to commence a six-day tour of the United States. Junipero Serra landed in San Diego, California in 1769 on a mission from Spain, to commence construction on the first of 21 Catholic missions in the state.
Through his directive, the Spaniards built the missions throughout California, plundering the land of its indigenous people and killing thousands of them. By 1900, 131 years after Serra's arrival, almost 95% of California's indigenous population had been decimated â€" down to 16,000 people from over 300,000. On Wednesday, Pope Francis will make Junipero Serra a saint. Naturally, some indigenous Californians are not happy about it.
A campaign spearheaded by the Amah Mutsun tribal band of Costanoan/Ohlone Indians against the canonization of Serra comes to a head Wednesday, when Pope Francis will bestow sainthood on Serra during an official ceremony at a Washington basilica.
In one of his many letters addressed to the Pope, Valentin Lopez, Chairman on the Amah Mutsun, writes:
"Serra was the architect of the mission system; he developed the brutal, inhumane policies that had no regard for our ancestors ... This terror included the violent capture, enslavement, torture and rape of natives, as well as an unhealthy diet and squalid living quarters that resulted in the death of an estimated 150,000 California Indians in the missions. This number includes thousands of women and children who died from syphilis and gonorrhea as a result of their sexual abuse. How the Catholic Church and you, Holy Father, can consider Serra's actions to be holy, sacred or saintly is incomprehensible to our tribe."
A Change.org petition urging California Gov. Jerry Brown to publicly oppose Serra's canonization has also gone unheeded.
"The Catholic church has completely ignored the humanity of California Indians," Lopez told Mic Wednesday morning. "Indigenous people are not going to stand for it."
Serra's establishment of California's often brutal Catholic mission system is taught in the fourth grade at state schools.
"The historical record of this era remains incomplete due to the relative absence of native testimony," California's fourth-grade Common Core standards read, "but it is clear that while missionaries brought agriculture, the Spanish language and culture and Christianity to the native population, American Indians suffered in many California missions."
Understatement of the year: Pope Francis has been widely hailed as one of the more progressive popes due to his outspoken views on wealth inequality, climate change, sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests and his endorsement of the state of Palestine. He also publicly apologized for the Church's exploitation of indigenous people in Latin America while in Santa Cruz, Bolivia, in July.
Yet today, during his first visit to a nation with one of the most brutal histories of anti-indigenous violence in the world, he will canonize a key architect of that same exploitation, under the watch of the President of the United States.
"It is completely hypocritical of Pope Francis to apologize to indigenous people of the Americas but move forward with canonizing Junipero Serra," Lopez told Mic. "We're going to continue our call to oppose it and to push the Church to recognize that we had traditions and humanity before, that we were not subhuman before Christianity arrived."
Old story, but it makes a point. Catholicism will blandly pronounce miracles and high moral conduct to monsters.
What bothers me is that Pope Francis had an opportunity do something in the way of reparations and do more than apologize. But the lives and disturbing history of an indigenous people matter less than the glorification of a genocidal priest.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
http://mic.com/articles/125756/man-who-helped-kill-thousands-of-native-americans-to-be-made-a-saint-by-pope-francis-today#.XhqLd3HH4
Old story, but it makes a point. Catholicism will blandly pronounce miracles and high moral conduct to monsters.
What bothers me is that Pope Francis had an opportunity do something in the way of reparations and do more than apologize. But the lives and disturbing history of an indigenous people matter less than the glorification of a genocidal priest.
Just one of so many atrocities of the catholic church in the last 1,500 years or so. But at least Frank is acknowledging it. That's better than the apologists who profess to be christians. Christianity left a blood drenched trail everywhere they went. No apology will ever undo the horrific brutality and genocides that were committed by loving christians. Serra is just one example.
Another example of the catholic bullshit: Only one(!) top NAZI has been excommunicated since WWII. Who? Goebbels. Why? Not for the murderer he was, but because he married a protestant woman! That shows you where the priorities of this blood cult lie.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
http://mic.com/articles/125756/man-who-helped-kill-thousands-of-native-americans-to-be-made-a-saint-by-pope-francis-today#.XhqLd3HH4
Old story, but it makes a point. Catholicism will blandly pronounce miracles and high moral conduct to monsters.
What bothers me is that Pope Francis had an opportunity do something in the way of reparations and do more than apologize. But the lives and disturbing history of an indigenous people matter less than the glorification of a genocidal priest.
Reparations? The Spanish, the Anglos and the Mexicans haven't finished trashing California yet ;-(
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
http://mic.com/articles/125756/man-who-helped-kill-thousands-of-native-americans-to-be-made-a-saint-by-pope-francis-today#.XhqLd3HH4
Old story, but it makes a point. Catholicism will blandly pronounce miracles and high moral conduct to monsters.
What bothers me is that Pope Francis had an opportunity do something in the way of reparations and do more than apologize. But the lives and disturbing history of an indigenous people matter less than the glorification of a genocidal priest.
Yeah! And in CA all 5th graders study the Mission System. And put it in a good light. Fucked up. But then everything the Catholics do/have done, is moral; they have an infallible pipeline to the throne of god.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
What bothers me is that Pope Francis had an opportunity do something in the way of reparations and do more than apologize. But the lives and disturbing history of an indigenous people matter less than the glorification of a genocidal priest.
This story is almost a year old, so your timing is...curious.
But for a balanced interview with a historian on Junipero Serra (warts and all):
Junipero Serra: saint or not?http://ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 02:22:17 PM
This story is almost a year old, so your timing is...curious.
But for a balanced interview with a historian on Junipero Serra (warts and all):
Junipero Serra: saint or not?
http://ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not
All men are sinners, especially Popes.
Balanced? From a Catholic source? Some of my past acquaintances number Navajos, Utes, and a few Hopis. These are the people that suffered the greatest genocide in history, and prime among the perpetrators was the Catholic church. Maybe want to go back in time and ask every dead Native American about "balanced".
Quote from: stromboli on May 17, 2016, 08:39:22 AM
Balanced? From a Catholic source? Some of my past acquaintances number Navajos, Utes, and a few Hopis. These are the people that suffered the greatest genocide in history, and prime among the perpetrators was the Catholic church. Maybe want to go back in time and ask every dead Native American about "balanced".
The ball really got rolling in the business of Catholic genocide with Christopher Columbus. He wrote in his diary that he was Jesus and he was in the New World to save souls. So, he had his head Catholic priest be one of the first to touch the beach when the Native Americans were spotted. The priest then read a speech written by the church explaining that it was their (Spanish) duty to save their souls (Native American) upon the pain of death. Convert or Die--by the order of the queen (and pope). And so, they died. And when some gold jewelry was spotted on the Native Americans, the real hunt was on. It was taken, and they were told to show where it came from. They were tortured to make sure the info was correct. Then they were forced to mine what little there was. And about 6000 were also enslaved and some taken back to Europe to show off to royalty. Much of this is known because of Columbus' diary--and because they (the Spanish and Portuguese) were not shy in proclaiming what they were doing. That's why I celebrate the hell out of Columbus Day!!!!
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 02:22:17 PM
This story is almost a year old, so your timing is...curious.
But for a balanced interview with a historian on Junipero Serra (warts and all):
Junipero Serra: saint or not?
http://ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not
That Randy sees this article as being 'fair and balanced' explains volumes about Randy. He is one sick, depraved, hypocritical, obnoxious, piece-of-shit man, with no morals (like his church)--if both he and his church had never existed, the world would be far, far better off than it is now. The church simply accepted as Truth, that these humans were not really human. So, they had to be their Father; already all the females were relegated to less than the male subhuman station in this world. They were enslaved and beaten for their own good. The Indians were definitely much worse off with the Mission System than the were without it. The catholic church was here to do what it always does--convert (one way or the other--the Church's actual motto is--Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out!) and gather wealth for the church. Hypocrisy--not a motto for the catholic church, just an unspoken standing order and way of life.
Catholic apologist chooses to contribute on atheist website and is not apparently happy with criticisms of said religion. Sounds familiar..... I was an apologist of sorts for both Mormonism and the Christianity until I did the unforgivable- look at the issues objectively.
Want to be an apologist for a world wide organization that is notably homophobic and misogynistic and has a clergy that has for centuries indulged itself with any form of behavior they choose, since for those centuries most of it went on behind the walls of cloistered environments where the truth was never laid bare. Welcome to the information age. Funny thing about the truth, it has a way of leaking out under the door and cracks in the wall. Which is what is happening now. Would recommend the movie "Spotlight" to our apologist friend.
Funny that. If you want to go to the snake pit and get upset about being bitten occasionally, well; no cure for it, I'm afraid.
Quote from: stromboli on May 17, 2016, 08:39:22 AM
Balanced? From a Catholic source? Some of my past acquaintances number Navajos, Utes, and a few Hopis. These are the people that suffered the greatest genocide in history, and prime among the perpetrators was the Catholic church. Maybe want to go back in time and ask every dead Native American about "balanced".
Oh, that's right. Catholics cannot possibly write balanced articles about their own past. They can't see their own strengths and weaknesses.
Only atheists can do that. (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 09:55:47 AM
Oh, that's right. Catholics cannot possibly write balanced articles about their own past. They can't see their own strengths and weaknesses.
Only atheists can do that. (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
I'm glad you are finally seeing the Truth! Maybe you aren't blind as a fucking bat! Hope springs eternal..............
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 10:15:32 AM
I'm glad you are finally seeing the Truth! Maybe you aren't blind as a fucking bat! Hope springs eternal..............
Apparently didn't get the part about "apologist". If, for example, I can find a lot of information about bad behavior from objective (for the most part) media sources- being from a variety of different outlets not specifically attached to an institution, versus being countered by information that comes specifically from said institutions by way of apologists, hmm... might be some bias there.
Now if you were to come up with some objective sources that were generally considered credible that supported an objective defense- different story. Apologetics is exactly that. If Ken Ham says Noah happened while building a multi billion dollar Noah's Ark theme park to generate income for his, uh, ministry- Bias? Of course. Answers In Genesis is nothing but biased apologetics. I for one don't consider it a legitimate source for that reason alone. Especially since the much larger and more studied body of evidence supporting evolution has already answered everything he claims.
Apologetic sources do nothing but present information for one purpose- to defend the relevant institution. Used to be a Mormon. Funny things happened. DNA happened. Archaeology happened. Continuing Paleontology and historic finds happened. Sort of put the torpedo in Nephi's barge, if you get my drift.
Its called the big picture. The whole panorama. Garden of Eden, Noah, tower of Babel, Exodus, existence of Jesus or real provable evidence of his divinity. The whole picture spells out falsehood. And try as you might, you aren't going to apologize all of the science, history and archaeology that contradict your apologetics away.
Quote from: stromboli on May 17, 2016, 11:27:22 AM
Apparently didn't get the part about "apologist". If, for example, I can find a lot of information about bad behavior from objective (for the most part) media sources- being from a variety of different outlets not specifically attached to an institution, versus being countered by information that comes specifically from said institutions by way of apologists, hmm... might be some bias there.
Now if you were to come up with some objective sources that were generally considered credible that supported an objective defense- different story. Apologetics is exactly that. If Ken Ham says Noah happened while building a multi billion dollar Noah's Ark theme park to generate income for his, uh, ministry- Bias? Of course. Answers In Genesis is nothing but biased apologetics. I for one don't consider it a legitimate source for that reason alone. Especially since the much larger and more studied body of evidence supporting evolution has already answered everything he claims.
Apologetic sources do nothing but present information for one purpose- to defend the relevant institution. Used to be a Mormon. Funny things happened. DNA happened. Archaeology happened. Continuing Paleontology and historic finds happened. Sort of put the torpedo in Nephi's barge, if you get my drift.
Its called the big picture. The whole panorama. Garden of Eden, Noah, tower of Babel, Exodus, existence of Jesus or real provable evidence of his divinity. The whole picture spells out falsehood. And try as you might, you aren't going to apologize all of the science, history and archaeology that contradict your apologetics away.
The US military has the responsibility for defending the nation. The President has the obligation to defend the constitution.
Defending something valuable is a good thing.
Oh, sorry to hear about your former Mormonism...I can see how that may have embittered you toward all religion since Joseph Smith was a liar and no archaeological evidence has EVER corroborated his story.
In contrast, archaeology has been very, very good to Christianity.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:20:25 PM
The US military has the responsibility for defending the nation. The President has the obligation to defend the constitution.
Defending something valuable is a good thing.
Don't see the president or military as being the equal of god--meaning they exist and god doesn't. And they are human and fallible--the fiction of god isn't. No comparison.
Defending what is good is not only valuable, but necessary. The catholic church (or any church or religion) is not only not valuable, but destructive--as is all religion.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 12:46:43 PM
Don't see the president or military as being the equal of god--meaning they exist and god doesn't. And they are human and fallible--the fiction of god isn't. No comparison.
The military defends the nation.
The president defends the constitution.
The apologist defends the faith
QuoteDefending what is good is not only valuable, but necessary. The catholic church (or any church or religion) is not only not valuable, but destructive--as is all religion.
Care to defend that opinion? Because it's not valuable, but destructive.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 12:46:43 PM
Don't see the president or military as being the equal of god--meaning they exist and god doesn't. And they are human and fallible--the fiction of god isn't. No comparison.
Defending what is good is not only valuable, but necessary. The catholic church (or any church or religion) is not only not valuable, but destructive--as is all religion.
Anything that cannot be tested and disproved is not evidence. It's really that simple.
Right Catholicism exists in the real world and has a known origin. Mormonism compares only in that it is a religion. Point is that apologetic sources are for the purpose of-wait for it- APOLOGETICS!
Consider that Creationism doesn't have much in the way of actual scientific basis, other than what Creationists have hunted out and grafted on to their theory. Scientific method is about discovery and evidence gathered pursuant from that to support or not support the discovery. Evolution is based on discovery and gathering evidence to either prove or disprove it. There is a massive amount of evidence to bolster it as a theory. Creationism starts with a premise- divine origin- and then seeks out evidence to prove the truth of divine origin. The exact opposite of science.
If no bible were written and the Catholic church did not exist, would evidence from historical sources, using scientific method, discover the existence of Jesus? Get rid of the Catholic Church and you don't have the Council of Nicea, no bible and no record based on sources gathered for that purpose. What is left is a hodge podge of sources from a then-monotheistic cult derived from Mithraism and earlier religions. Had Constantine not seen the value of adopting his mother's religion for the purpose of advancing the state of Rome, the whole existence of Catholicism is called into question.
And if I have an ass ache with religion, It because I have problems with faith-based belief presented as truth, and what is given out as truth with no evidence; a "truth" than condones misogyny, slavery, rape, withholding useful items like birth control and condoms for prevention of unwanted pregnancy. Religion has been the excuse for bad behavior for centuries. Christians burned down the library at Alexandria and the works of Greek scholars because it was in their version evil. We lost vast amounts of knowledge because the good well meaning Christians burned it. Doesn't strike me as either visionary or the work of an enlightened god.
Your god apparently doesn't have a problem with poverty and lower standards of living generated by overpopulation and resultant children that are not adequately cared for by society. Disease, persecution, genocide and destruction of cultures and the invasion of countries- all justified by religions plural and yours specifically.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 12:46:43 PM
Don't see the president or military as being the equal of god--meaning they exist and god doesn't. And they are human and fallible--the fiction of god isn't. No comparison.
Laws were initially formed as a result of someone's physical or emotional anguish. Police and leaders were employed to enforce these laws. However, they can't be everywhere at once, so these laws become religion enforceable by the being who created everything. Primitive humans assumed the known universe was created by a being with human thoughts because that was their frame of reference. Therefore, this powerful builder must also understand human pain as well. If a mere human doesn't want it, surely this superhuman must vehemently loathe it. If this superhuman can make anything happen, it can punish those who break these laws, even if the authority never finds out. It's simple primitive "logic".
Ironically, power corrupts. When people are given authority, most almost immediately become more controlling and hypocritical. This is the trait of an angry god. More corrupt people emerge offering protection from this god. It gets to the point where a savior is welcomed to represent the oppressed. Unfortunately, power corrupts the savior.
Yep--Divine Right of Kings. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Quote from: stromboli on May 17, 2016, 01:14:13 PM
Right Catholicism exists in the real world and has a known origin. Mormonism compares only in that it is a religion. Point is that apologetic sources are for the purpose of-wait for it- APOLOGETICS!
Consider that Creationism doesn't have much in the way of actual scientific basis, other than what Creationists have hunted out and grafted on to their theory. Scientific method is about discovery and evidence gathered pursuant from that to support or not support the discovery. Evolution is based on discovery and gathering evidence to either prove or disprove it. There is a massive amount of evidence to bolster it as a theory. Creationism starts with a premise- divine origin- and then seeks out evidence to prove the truth of divine origin. The exact opposite of science.
You are aware of the fact that Catholics are cool with evolution and intelligent design, right? Most of us AREN'T creationists.
QuoteIf no bible were written and the Catholic church did not exist, would evidence from historical sources, using scientific method, discover the existence of Jesus? Get rid of the Catholic Church and you don't have the Council of Nicea, no bible and no record based on sources gathered for that purpose. What is left is a hodge podge of sources from a then-monotheistic cult derived from Mithraism and earlier religions. Had Constantine not seen the value of adopting his mother's religion for the purpose of advancing the state of Rome, the whole existence of Catholicism is called into question.
That's almost like saying get rid of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and see what you have of the Personal Computer. Almost.
If no Bible were written and the Catholic Church did not exist, then what means of transmission of the message of Jesus would be left?
QuoteAnd if I have an ass ache with religion, It because I have problems with faith-based belief presented as truth, and what is given out as truth with no evidence; a "truth" than condones misogyny, slavery, rape, withholding useful items like birth control and condoms for prevention of unwanted pregnancy. Religion has been the excuse for bad behavior for centuries. Christians burned down the library at Alexandria and the works of Greek scholars because it was in their version evil. We lost vast amounts of knowledge because the good well meaning Christians burned it. Doesn't strike me as either visionary or the work of an enlightened god.
Whoa. Christians burned the library down?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria
QuoteYour god apparently doesn't have a problem with poverty and lower standards of living generated by overpopulation and resultant children that are not adequately cared for by society. Disease, persecution, genocide and destruction of cultures and the invasion of countries- all justified by religions plural and yours specifically.
Why does the existence of these things mean that God doesn't care about them?
The mob of monks under Cyril of Alexandria, lynched Hypatia in a psycho fashion, and helped in the historical but long term destruction of the Library of Alexandria. It had been partially destroyed multiple times before and there must have been still more to destroy when the Arabs initially arrived, because they were hot to burn what was left. Cyril of Alexandria is the one who pushed Marianism ... as a way to incorporate Isis/Horus worship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjQ6lbwN9R8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuEhwselE0