Elsewhere, it has been alleged that I am avoiding answering direct questions. I deny this, and I'd like to lay this calumny to rest once and for all.
As is true in all threads, but fastidiously so in this one, I will answer any and all questions asked of me to the best of my ability concerning Christianity, Catholicism, the New Testament and related topics, proofs, evidence, arguments, as well as historical and current events, etc.
Here are the ground rules:
1. Limit one open question per forum member.
2. I will reply with one response which will close the question.
3. If you want to ask a follow up, you may do so after everyone ahead of you has been answered. No cutting in line.
This offer is made as a good faith gesture to the forum. If no one wishes to participate, then so be it, but the charge that I do not answer direct questions will have lost its teeth.
Bah, I wanted to take this opportunity to ask something completely ridiculous and hilarious, to make a complete joke of your offer, but you know what? I'll play along.
I am somewhat indifferent on the scientific and "rational" proving or disproving of your god because I do not believe such a thing can be possible until we die. While the god of the Bible, as he is written, is an impossibility... I do not rule out that such a being could exist, however unlikely, in some form or another and the Bible was simply as close as some Middle Eastern tribes, and later European revisionists in the Holy Roman Empire, could come to understand him (or exploit his power for their own gain).
I prefer to concern myself with, instead of intellectual debate of god or what will happen to me when I die, with what will make me a better person now, in this world, and what will make my neighbours a better person. Not just in act, but in their heart... to genuinely care and love for one another and ourselves. I think anything that gives us this ability is inherently useful to some extent. So, given this... what does Christianity offer me that cannot be found in any other religion, or even philosophies that preach nearly the same thing sans dogma? What would make Christianity more valuable to me than drugs that open up my mind, that do not preach that I should hate my neighbour because he does not pray like me or is attracted to the same sex as me, amongst hundreds of other things the Bible tells us to hate our neighbour for? It seems the only way Christianity can offer me a better life is if I cherry pick 80%+ of the Christianity out of it, and at that point does it warrant being called Christianity? (Sorry, that is kinda 3 questions but they all have one single over-arching gist).
Quote from: Shiranu on May 14, 2016, 05:57:49 PM
Bah, I wanted to take this opportunity to ask something completely ridiculous and hilarious, to make a complete joke of your offer, but you know what? I'll play along.
I am somewhat indifferent on the scientific and "rational" proving or disproving of your god because I do not believe such a thing can be possible until we die. While the god of the Bible, as he is written, is an impossibility... I do not rule out that such a being could exist, however unlikely, in some form or another and the Bible was simply as close as some Middle Eastern tribes, and later European revisionists in the Holy Roman Empire, could come to understand him (or exploit his power for their own gain).
I prefer to concern myself with, instead of intellectual debate of god or what will happen to me when I die, with what will make me a better person now, in this world, and what will make my neighbours a better person. Not just in act, but in their heart... to genuinely care and love for one another and ourselves. I think anything that gives us this ability is inherently useful to some extent. So, given this... what does Christianity offer me that cannot be found in any other religion, or even philosophies that preach nearly the same thing sans dogma? What would make Christianity more valuable to me than drugs that open up my mind, that do not preach that I should hate my neighbour because he does not pray like me or is attracted to the same sex as me, amongst hundreds of other things the Bible tells us to hate our neighbour for? It seems the only way Christianity can offer me a better life is if I cherry pick 80%+ of the Christianity out of it, and at that point does it warrant being called Christianity? (Sorry, that is kinda 3 questions but they all have one single over-arching gist).
No problem, Shiranu. Asking one question in multiple ways for clarification is a positive thing. And I commend you for taking the high road and asking such a profound question.
Your references to "hating our neighbor" make we wonder if you have actually read the Bible or if you have simply picked up bits and pieces of the Old Testament from Internet forums and blogs. Jesus' moral teaching is considered by many to be truly profound, and even if you do not accept the miracles or resurrection, there is much wisdom in what he had to say. I'd recommend reading the gospel of Matthew for this because it contains a lot of Jesus' teaching in very clear passages. You can read the whole thing in a single sitting of about two hours or so, or you can break it up into smaller chunks and go at your own pace. Either way, I think you will find Jesus to be a profound thinker and teacher.
Now, that addresses the "head knowledge" of Christianity, but you asked how Christianity can bring about the "heart change" needed to become a better person in this life. The good news, Shiranu, is that this is precisely what God wants to do in all of us. When a person becomes a believer in Christ and is baptized, he "dies" with Christ and is "born again". Paul explained this to the believers in Corinth:
Quote2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
This was promised in the Old Testament when God spoke through the prophet Ezekiel:
QuoteEzekiel 11:19
I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Notice that God says that He will put a new spirit in us? This is the promise of the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within a believer.
Paul also told the believers in Ephesus:
QuoteEphesians 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possessionâ€"to the praise of his glory.
It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are able to live as new creations. And that's a good thing, because we already know that it is so hard to love our neighbors purely on our own strength, don't we?
So, the teaching of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit He promised to send to those who believe in him: these give new life to those who seek them and enable us to love others as God has first loved us.
Try giving Matthew a read. If you don't own a Bible, you can find it online here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+1&version=NIV
Another chance for a propaganda thread? Please, keep doing them, it keeps you off the street.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 14, 2016, 06:38:19 PM
Another chance for a propaganda thread? Please, keep doing them, it keeps you off the street.
I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.
Quote from: stromboli on May 14, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.
"Exodus", the story of a whole nation of people who never existed using a God that doesn't exist to escape from a bondage that never happened and wander around a large parking lot for 40 years when a person could walk over the entire peninsula in 2.5 years?
It must be true, it's in the Bible!
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 14, 2016, 05:44:37 PM
Elsewhere, it has been alleged that I am avoiding answering direct questions. I deny this, and I'd like to lay this calumny to rest once and for all.
As is true in all threads, but fastidiously so in this one, I will answer any and all questions asked of me to the best of my ability concerning Christianity, Catholicism, the New Testament and related topics, proofs, evidence, arguments, as well as historical and current events, etc.
Here are the ground rules:
1. Limit one open question per forum member.
2. I will reply with one response which will close the question.
3. If you want to ask a follow up, you may do so after everyone ahead of you has been answered. No cutting in line.
This offer is made as a good faith gesture to the forum. If no one wishes to participate, then so be it, but the charge that I do not answer direct questions will have lost its teeth.
Selling Christianity to atheists is like selling ice to Eskimos - so, why do you bother, is it some sort of
mitzvah on your part, a good deed, as it were, the desire to save our souls? Let God do his own dirty work for a change. He's one lazy bastard, if you ask me. He could miracle all of us into believers, if he wanted.
Quote from: stromboli on May 14, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
I was just going to ask him to prove Exodus happened but- nah.
That
would be a tall order.
However, I will recommend that you consider watching a documentary on NetFlix entitled
Patterns of Evidence: Exodus.
The general premise is that yes, there is evidence that the Hebrews were in Egypt but it's been overlooked because Egyptologists have been looking for it in the wrong era of Egyptian history. I found a website which contains this synopsis:
"The film suggests the biblical text included these geographical references so that readers would know the land of Goshen where the Hebrews lived was at the city of Avaris, which is near the city of Ramses. Because Ramsesâ€"meaning “the Egyptian god Ra gave birth to himâ€â€"was a very common name to honor pharaohs, it may have become associated with property in this region long before any of eleven pharaohs known as Ramses or the Ramses the Great became specifically associated with the land. In any case,
when archaeologists look in the region of the New Kingdom city of Ramses in deeper layers associated with the older “Middle Kingdom,†they find a wealth of archaeological and textual support for the historicity of the Exodus just as the Bible records it."
(https://cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/img/articles/2015/01/patterns-of-evidence-timeline.jpg)
"This illustration from the book
Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is similar to those in the film. Here the upper wall of time shows the traditional view of Egyptian chronology and the “late Exodus†view, which places the Exodus at about 1250 BC, during the reign of Ramses the Great. (The reign of Ramses the Great, who built many monuments, is indicated in the 1200s BC by a graphic “monument city†on the wall.) The colored blocks indicate events such as the arrival of Joseph’s family in Egypt, their multiplication and enslavement, the events directly related to the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan. Archaeological evidence for these events is not found when the search is made for it in material related to that timeframe of history, but
if the timeframe is shifted backward (white arrow) about two centuries toward Egypt’s Middle Kingdom, and the Exodus is placed around 1450 BC, archaeology tells another story. This is shown in the lower illustration. Image courtesy of Timothy Mahoney,
Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus."
https://answersingenesis.org/reviews/movies/movie-review-patterns-of-evidence-exodus/
+++
You may not agree with the conclusion, but it is an interesting presentation.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 07:29:25 AM
Selling Christianity to atheists is like selling ice to Eskimos - so, why do you bother, is it some sort of mitzvah on your part, a good deed, as it were, the desire to save our souls? Let God do his own dirty work for a change. He's one lazy bastard, if you ask me. He could miracle all of us into believers, if he wanted.
Eskimos already have ice. Atheists do not already have faith in God.
That said, God cannot "miracle" you into believers without violating your free will.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 15, 2016, 05:57:13 AM
"Exodus", the story of a whole nation of people who never existed using a God that doesn't exist to escape from a bondage that never happened and wander around a large parking lot for 40 years when a person could walk over the entire peninsula in 2.5 years?
It must be true, it's in the Bible!
It's not that the Israelites
couldn't have walked to Canaan in less than 40 years; it's that God did not permit them to do so until all of the generation which had worshiped the golden calf had died. None of these were permitted to enter the Promised Land.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 08:56:53 AM
Eskimos already have ice. Atheists do not already have faith in God.
That said, God cannot "miracle" you into believers without violating your free will.
If we have free will, then he can't punish us for our sins, either, but that doesn't stop him, does it?
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 09:03:22 AM
If we have free will, then he can't punish us for our sins, either, but that doesn't stop him, does it?
If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.
Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.
So,
of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 09:10:40 AM
If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.
Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.
So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make.
Oh, God's a cop, is he? Well, then, he's been laying down on the job and should be busted back down to street patrol.
My parents were decent human beings, not some cosmic scum-bag that belongs in Hell being roasted by Satan as punishment for the filth of his own existence. If the THING called God exists, then nothing lower and more vile and reprehensible ever existed.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 09:15:51 AM
Oh, God's a cop, is he? Well, then, he's been laying down on the job and should be busted back down to street patrol.
My parents were decent human beings, not some cosmic scum-bag that belongs in Hell being roasted by Satan as punishment for the filth of his own existence. If the THING called God exists, then nothing lower and more vile and reprehensible ever existed.
Thank you for sharing your views. Would you like to ask a related question?
What's the speed of Chuck Norris roundhouse kick ?
Quote from: leo on May 15, 2016, 09:40:14 AM
What's the speed of Chuck Norris roundhouse kick ?
Sufficiently fast to do considerable harm to the person on the receiving end of one. More than this I do not know.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/sports/nunchuk.gif)
Exodus is fiction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the-biblical-exodus-story-is-fiction_b_1408123.html
http://www.exitmundi.nl/bible/web-content/mos_exodus.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus
https://thechurchoftruth.org/95-2/
Answers in Genesis the best you can do? Exodus is a pivotal story in the bible. When you have a record keeping people like the Egyptians who make no note of seven plagues, concurrent deaths, 600,000 Jewish elders with their families (2 million minimum) up and walking out of town and wandering for 40 years in a specific area and leaving no concurrent evidence, that doesn't bode well.
You can also add that archaeology supports the fact that Judaism started out as a polytheistic religion that became monotheistic after the Babylonian captivity.
Answers in Genesis, aka Ken Ham, also purports the Noah myth as true. Good luck with that.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Answers in Genesis, aka Ken Ham, also purports the Noah myth as true. Good luck with that.
:agreenod:
Yep, the same story was written a few times over since 3,000 B.C.E. It is all there to see as FACT, clay tablets, stone carvings, papyrus etc. etc.
but Yahweh found it necessary to steal the story and make it his own. Dumb and dumber...
and the sheep buy into it to comfort themselves. Awww, by all means, don't let FACTS get in the way of a good STORY.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Exodus is fiction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the-biblical-exodus-story-is-fiction_b_1408123.html
http://www.exitmundi.nl/bible/web-content/mos_exodus.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus
https://thechurchoftruth.org/95-2/
Answers in Genesis the best you can do? Exodus is a pivotal story in the bible. When you have a record keeping people like the Egyptians who make no note of seven plagues, concurrent deaths, 600,000 Jewish elders with their families (2 million minimum) up and walking out of town and wandering for 40 years in a specific area and leaving no concurrent evidence, that doesn't bode well.
You can also add that archaeology supports the fact that Judaism started out as a polytheistic religion that became monotheistic after the Babylonian captivity.
Answers in Genesis, aka Ken Ham, also purports the Noah myth as true. Good luck with that.
I'm not advocating Answering Genesis or Ken Ham.
I have simply provided a snippet about the documentary,
Patterns of Evidence: Exodus, from that site because I needed the graphic.
You should evaluate the film after viewing it and not before.
Quote from: reasonist on May 15, 2016, 10:13:38 AM
Yep, the same story was written a few times over since 3,000 B.C.E. It is all there to see as FACT, clay tablets, stone carvings, papyrus etc. etc. but Yahweh found it necessary to steal the story and make it his own. Dumb and dumber...
and the sheep buy into it to comfort themselves. Awww, by all means, don't let FACTS get in the way of a good STORY.
Would you like to ask a question?
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 09:56:09 AM
Answers in Genesis, aka Ken Ham, also purports the Noah myth as true. Good luck with that.
If you want a good laugh, visit Ken Ham's creation museum in Kentucky. There you see that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time. And we not only co-existed, we rode them! They have saddles!
People actually take their kids to this fantasy park and teach them this garbage. But it's always good for entertainment, like some posters here.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 09:34:23 AM
Thank you for sharing your views. Would you like to ask a related question?
:neener:
"biblical evidence" of dinosaurs? There are literally millions of dinosaur bones known to exist, not even counting all of the natural history museums that have drawers full of dinosaur bones.
They are all dated to the same periods per species across the board. Jurassic dinosaurs date to the Jurassic. No significant anomalies to say otherwise. Geological and DNA dating support all current theories about their development and time period. Fuck Ken Ham.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 08:59:10 AM
It's not that the Israelites couldn't have walked to Canaan in less than 40 years; it's that God did not permit them to do so until all of the generation which had worshiped the golden calf had died. None of these were permitted to enter the Promised Land.
Once again proving your god is a prick.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 15, 2016, 10:43:47 AM
Once again proving your god is a prick.
What a forgiving creature. Left them to rot as slaves, freeing them after how long? Couldn't cut them some slack? Cheap bastard.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 15, 2016, 10:43:47 AM
Once again proving your god is a prick.
Why?
If you promised to take your kids to Disney World if they made straight A's in school, would you take them if they screwed around all year and earned C's instead?
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 10:48:17 AM
What a forgiving creature. Left them to rot as slaves, freeing them after how long? Couldn't cut them some slack? Cheap bastard.
See my response in the previous post.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 10:53:35 AM
See my response in the previous post.
Slavery in Egypt was school? ... not that that ever happened, mind you ... but just to hear your lies about it ...
Would you care for an extended dialogue with me sometime? Perhaps throughout this following week if possible. The fact that you aren't banned has shown that you are a creative person who has mastered his craft. (What craft that is would be debatable among my peers here, but I consider it a good thing to a fair extent)
Do note that the dialogue is going to be multi-topic (which will encompass several threads as we complete them) and will deal with morals, but not necessary religious one's.
Personally, It's been a dull time around here, too much echo chamber. I also recognize that answers previously given by you may not have been out of best judgement due to the somewhat harsh criticism of my peers here.
Pardon my extremely formal speech/text, but I feel that it is necessary to get my point across.
Now, for an introduction for what you need to know.
I am a young atheist, but am somewhat of a heretical one. I current live in PST and go to school. I live in a religious family and stay home from church (whom my parents and aunt's/uncle's family goes), but stay home with my Buddhist Grandparents, both Maternal and Paternal. I have read the bible to it's entirety, though that was a year ago. I have been an atheist since 13 years of age. In wake of your presence I have re-read Christian rhetoric and thought, as well as a brief study of the many sects and schisms of Christianity.
However, I am not interested in a debate. I want to build upon each other, since I do not feel that I can achieve progress with those who are similar to me any longer.
Do I need to believe in god and follow the christian bible in order to get myself into heaven?
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 11:11:59 AM
Would you care for an extended dialogue with me sometime? Perhaps throughout this following week if possible. The fact that you aren't banned has shown that you are a creative person who has mastered his craft. (What craft that is would be debatable among my peers here, but I consider it a good thing to a fair extent)
Do note that the dialogue is going to be multi-topic (which will encompass several threads as we complete them) and will deal with morals, but not necessary religious one's.
Personally, It's been a dull time around here, too much echo chamber. I also recognize that answers previously given by you may not have been out of best judgement due to the somewhat harsh criticism of my peers here.
Pardon my extremely formal speech/text, but I feel that it is necessary to get my point across.
Now, for an introduction for what you need to know.
I am a young atheist, but am somewhat of a heretical one. I current live in PST and go to school. I live in a religious family and stay home from church (whom my parents and aunt's/uncle's family goes), but stay home with my Buddhist Grandparents, both Maternal and Paternal. I have read the bible to it's entirety, though that was a year ago. I have been an atheist since 13 years of age. In wake of your presence I have re-read Christian rhetoric and thought, as well as a brief study of the many sects and schisms of Christianity.
However, I am not interested in a debate. I want to build upon each other, since I do not feel that I can achieve progress with those who are similar to me any longer.
I would be happy to chat with you as much as you like either in this thread or in any other. I will answer every one of your questions to the best of my ability. When I don't know the answer, I will admit that. I may refer you to others so that you can see what they have to say if I cannot respond adequately.
It sounds like you are a highschool student. You mention that you are being raised in a "religious family" and that you stay home from Church. Your grandparents are Buddhists...but what church do your parents attend?
Finally, if you have an opening question you'd like to ask, I'm ready when you are. I look forward to our discussion. (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 11:17:34 AM
Do I need to believe in god and follow the christian bible in order to get myself into heaven?
Normatively, yes, but not absolutely. Here is an analogy:
QuoteIn America, driving on the right hand side of the road has a necessity of precept because the law requires us to do so. However, it is also necessary as a means because if one wishes to safely navigate the highways in America then one must drive on the right hand side of the road. If you wish to arrive safely at your destination, the means to that end is driving on the right hand side.
Thus driving on the right side of the road is a normative necessity by precept (because the law normally requires it) and a normative necessity of means (because it is normally necessary to safely arrive at one's destination). However, it is not an absolute necessity of precept (because the law makes exceptions for emergencies) or an absolute necessity of means (because safely arriving at one's destination sometimes requires a swerve into the other lane as an emergency maneuver).
When it comes to the question of being a Catholic, that is both a necessity of precept and a necessity of means. It is a necessity of precept because God commands it, for "the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ," Lumen Gentium 14 (CCC 846). It is a necessity of means because the Catholic Church is the sacrament of salvation for mankind, containing all the means of grace. "As sacrament, the Church is Christ's instrument. 'She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,' 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' by which Christ is 'at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God's love for men'" (CCC 776, citing Vatican II's Lumen Gentium 9:2, 48:2, and Gaudiam et Spes 45:1).
Taken from:
The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447
The tricky part of this, Johan, is that you know enough of God and the Bible to have formulated the question
at all. Consequently, it is incumbent upon you to form your conscience properly by pursuing an answer to your own question. Claiming "invincible ignorance" will be a risky strategy on judgment day.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 11:26:29 AM
I would be happy to chat with you as much as you like either in this thread or in any other. I will answer every one of your questions to the best of my ability. When I don't know the answer, I will admit that. I may refer you to others so that you can see what they have to say if I cannot respond adequately.
It sounds like you are a highschool student. You mention that you are being raised in a "religious family" and that you stay home from Church. Your grandparents are Buddhists...but what church do your parents attend?
Finally, if you have an opening question you'd like to ask, I'm ready when you are. I look forward to our discussion. (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Ah, several things.
1. I also admit when I don't know, though I sometimes confuse assumptions for fact, so do point those out.
2. Vietnamese Catholic Parish is the church that my parents go. Or I think it's the name, since I can't read Vietnamese quite well
3. For reference for our first talk, please read the following in it's entirety within the next two hours (or three if need be):
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10051.0
If your prefer a TL;DR Version here it is:
I am a secular work oriented person who is trying to figure ways to help people become more productive in life. Life should not be free, it must be paid for with a contribution to society. Another forum goer has pointed that this is too utopian and I have dropped the topic realizing that fact. However, I want to learn a perspective of work from a Christian...
After Breakfast and some homework!
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 11:33:23 AM
The tricky part of this, Johan, is that you know enough of God and the Bible to have formulated the question at all. Consequently, it is incumbent upon you to form your conscience properly by pursuing an answer to your own question. Claiming "invincible ignorance" will be a risky strategy on judgment day.
So are you saying that one could be granted entry into heaven if for instance, they lived in a remote tribe with little to know outside contact and therefore were never aware of the existence of god or the bible?
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
Ah, several things.
1. I also admit when I don't know, though I sometimes confuse assumptions for fact, so do point those out.
2. Vietnamese Catholic Parish is the church that my parents go. Or I think it's the name, since I can't read Vietnamese quite well
3. For reference for our first talk, please read the following in it's entirety within the next two hours (or three if need be):
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10051.0
If your prefer a TL;DR Version here it is:
I am a secular work oriented person who is trying to figure ways to help people become more productive in life. Life should not be free, it must be paid for with a contribution to society. Another forum goer has pointed that this is too utopian and I have dropped the topic realizing that fact. However, I want to learn a perspective of work from a Christian...
After Breakfast and some homework!
Okay, I've just finished reading the thread. Not thoughtfully analyzing it, of course, but enough to see what has been discussed.
I, too, have some chores to take care of today. I will look for an opening question in our discussion throughout the day.
May I recommend that we either start a new thread or continue in that other one? I'd like for this one to remain open for people who want to ask me a variety of questions.
Let me know what you decide.
Thanks.
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
So are you saying that one could be granted entry into heaven if for instance, they lived in a remote tribe with little to know outside contact and therefore were never aware of the existence of god or the bible?
It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?
Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:
QuoteMatthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.
Can you imagine how this world would be radically transformed if everyone lived by the motto, "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Isn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others? So, they lash out in anger. And the cycle of violence affects all of us.
So, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 12:04:41 PM
It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?
Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:
But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.
Can you imagine how this world would be radically transformed if everyone lived by the motto, "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Isn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others? So, they lash out in anger. And the cycle of violence affects all of us.
So, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.
Christianity has had 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 12:15:54 PM
Christianity has 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.
Well look at it this way. You can't have a Renaissance if you don't first have a Dark Ages. :biggrin:
Randy,
YOUR QUOTE: "But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another."
HUH? How can you now state that your Savior is loving when you earlier and explicitly called him earlier a "moral monster?!" Please explain!
Barring Randy being a hypocrite momentarily, as shown above by falling off the tracks again, I seriously have to hand it to him earlier when his blatant ignorance was shown relative to his primitive bible, and in this case, where he was schooled upon the biblical fact that Christians are to follow the Old Testament, they can judge others, and that he has committed the Unpardonable Sin, he at least admits it!
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10065.15 Reply #24
All Atheists should be happy that Randy is slowly coming to terms with his primitive Catholic faith, where we are making headway for Randy to jettison his Bronze and Iron Age cult of Catholicism and leave this pacifier behind, praise!
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 10:48:17 AM
What a forgiving creature. Left them to rot as slaves, freeing them after how long? Couldn't cut them some slack? Cheap bastard.
All of that, and the Promised Land was already occupied. Since these occupants were human and of this Earth, I'd suspect god created them. So, he owned them and could do what he goddamned well wanted to. Wasting them was no big deal--all in a days work; and child's play according what he had to do for the Flood. A few times around Jericho and Joshua, the Savior, got to be the instrument of all that destruction; but it's all good, none of the good guys died. Man, those must have been the good old days for him--now all he gets to do is rig up things like 9/11 or Katrina.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 15, 2016, 12:47:14 PM
All of that, and the Promised Land was already occupied. Since these occupants were human and of this Earth, I'd suspect god created them. So, he owned them and could do what he goddamned well wanted to. Wasting them was no big deal--all in a days work; and child's play according what he had to do for the Flood. A few times around Jericho and Joshua, the Savior, got to be the instrument of all that destruction; but it's all good, none of the good guys died. Man, those must have been the good old days for him--now all he gets to do is rig up things like 9/11 or Katrina.
And Jesus' face on toast. Remember, Jesus is toast. :biggrin:
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 12:50:51 PM
And Jesus' face on toast. Remember, Jesus is toast. :biggrin:
Yeah--when your're bored, you do all kinds of things.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 12:04:41 PM
It's possible. Kinda makes you wonder why we bother to send missionaries, doesn't it?
Well, the answer to that question is that we were told to do so here:
So god commands you to in a sense, damn people to hell by requiring you to spread the word. They can get into heaven if they're ignorant, but once you spill the beans, their choices are bow down and worship him or burn in hell. Nice. I hope you sleep well at night knowing how many souls you've damned.
QuoteBut Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another.
Hmm... I have no relationship with any kind of savior loving or otherwise, and yet my relationships with other people are just fine. Very stress free life, a few good friends, lots more colleagues and acquaintances that I get along with just peachy and a very healthy and rewarding relationship with my wife in a marriage that's been going strong for over 10 years now. Guess I must be doing something wrong.
QuoteIsn't it true that many people are wounded, hurt and filled with bitterness and anger in this life because they have not been treated well by others?
It is. Gay people for example. And women. Let's not forget women. Absolutely horrible how the bible motivates people to treat women and gay people like dirt.
QuoteSo, evangelizing is not merely about getting people saved in the end, it's also about transforming the society in which we live here and now until we are all at home with Him.
Well obviously I disagree but its good to have a dream so by all means, keep on dreaming.
Ok so follow up question. God sent his son here to spread the word and whatnot so that we could all be saved. So what fate awaited all the people who lived and died before jesus came for his first and so far only visit? I mean, were they all just fucked from the get go?
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 12:15:54 PM
Christianity has had 2000 years to spread its manure and, thus far, all that has sprouted has been weeds.
Opinions differ, but the positive impact of the Catholic Church on western civilization is recognized by all but the most polemic of partisans.
Quote from: stromboli on May 15, 2016, 12:42:38 PM
Well look at it this way. You can't have a Renaissance if you don't first have a Dark Ages.
The term "Dark Ages" originally was intended to denote the entire period between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance; the term "Middle Ages" has a similar motivation, implying an intermediate period between Classical Antiquity and the Modern era.
In the 19th century scholars began to recognize the accomplishments made during the period, thereby challenging the image of the Middle Ages as a time of darkness and decay.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)
IOW, your understanding is not very "enlightened". (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 15, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Randy,
YOUR QUOTE: "But Christianity is not just about what happens when we die. It's about a relationship with a loving Savior and about our relationships with one another."
HUH? How can you now state that your Savior is loving when you earlier and explicitly called him earlier a "moral monster?!" Please explain!
I'm happy to explain, again, because some kids in the class are slower to catch on than others, apparently.
1. You wanted to debate me about what you perceive to be the evils of God as seen in the Old Testament.
2. In order to have a debate, there must a statement or "resolution" that both sides agree upon and which will be the centerpiece to be attacked and defended.
3. I proposed a resolution that I thought you would find acceptable since it captures your view of God in the OT.
4. Realizing that you were about to get your clock cleaned in grand fashion, you chose to abandon the debate and to focus your pathetic efforts on the theologically erroneous proposition that I have committed the unpardonable sin by the mere proposition of a statement of YOUR belief - a statement I would have demolished in due course.
How long have you been off your meds, 21C?
And is that your room number at the institution where you are currently being supervised by medical professionals?
WWJD? Insults apparently. Nice.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 02:04:29 PM
I'm happy to explain, again, because some kids in the class are slower to catch on than others, apparently.
1. You wanted to debate me about what you perceive to be the evils of God as seen in the Old Testament.
2. In order to have a debate, there must a statement or "resolution" that both sides agree upon and which will be the centerpiece to be attacked and defended.
3. I proposed a resolution that I thought you would find acceptable since it captures your view of God in the OT.
4. Realizing that you were about to get your clock cleaned in grand fashion, you chose to abandon the debate and to focus your pathetic efforts on the theologically erroneous proposition that I have committed the unpardonable sin by the mere proposition of a statement of YOUR belief - a statement I would have demolished in due course.
How long have you been off your meds, 21C?
And is that your room number at the institution where you are currently being supervised by medical professionals?
Randy,
All of your rhetoric shown above is yet
another excuse for you to RUN from debating your primitive faith, duly noted. What's next, if its cloudy at the time you're posting and you're wearing blue underwear and the tempature is under 58 degrees, you have an extra day to respond in a debate with me? Additionally, if you can't find the apologetic book that you need to support your ignorance in your fairy tale belief, and it's raining outside, and you're out of coffee, then you don't need to address my questions? Unfortunately, you're unable to see how outwardly ridiculous you are. LOL
Randy, get used to the FACT that I have superior biblical knowledge over your feeble attempts of defending your primitive faith, as it has been explicitly shown in the threads where you've become eerily silent to my posts to you. I eat insidious apologetic books for lunch, and hermeneutics for dinner. It goes with the territory when the pseudo-christian like yourself comes up against the Atheist that has forgotten more about your primitive Bronze and Iron Age bible, than you'll ever learn about it. FACT! Listen, I understand completely why you don't want to debate me on the fact that you're to follow the Old Testament, and other primitive topics of your faith, and that is because I pointed out to you that without question,
you've committed the UNPARDONABLE SIN, and where you even admitted to this fact!, Therefore, you're afraid that I will uncover more of your biblical ignorance, where in turn, your Yahweh will be holding the hottest place in Hell for your eventful arrival. Thats it, isn't it? LOL
Randy, what running shoes do you wear, Nike, Converse, Reebok, or? The picture below is the last pseudo-christian that tried in vain to debate me on their primitive belief, and he did exactly what you're doing now,
USING EVERY EXCUSE IN THE CHRISTIAN PLAYBOOK TO RUN AWAY SO THEY WON'T BE MADE THE FOOL AGAIN!(https://sporeflections.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/running-away1.jpg)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 10:53:04 AM
Why?
If you promised to take your kids to Disney World if they made straight A's in school, would you take them if they screwed around all year and earned C's instead?
Dmdass level 99.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 15, 2016, 12:47:14 PM
All of that, and the Promised Land was already occupied. Since these occupants were human and of this Earth, I'd suspect god created them. So, he owned them and could do what he goddamned well wanted to. Wasting them was no big deal--all in a days work; and child's play according what he had to do for the Flood. A few times around Jericho and Joshua, the Savior, got to be the instrument of all that destruction; but it's all good, none of the good guys died. Man, those must have been the good old days for him--now all he gets to do is rig up things like 9/11 or Katrina.
Yeah, well, he's getting old. And bored. And we're not so interested in his work any more. So he just wakes from his nap now and then and throws a few planes at towers and lets the guy in the funny hat make monsters into saints. Once in a while, he cuts a fart and turns it into AIDS for the fags, you know, nothing special. Then he goes back to sleep.
Question: Is every verse absolutely provably true?
Answer: No
Then I feel for a person who spends so much time in their life scurrying to confirm the religion their parents convinced them was true but now realizes it is complete bullshit but is too embarrassed to admit it to themselves, so they feverishly try to convince other people that the same bullshit it true to justify their gullibility and stupidity. Too bad randy, you had real promise when you were younger, but it's still not too late to bring some real relief to your tortured self. Do the work yourself. Go thru that babble one verse at a time and demand the same morality of your god as you would your child.
If you can do that and still claim your god is a god, then please stay the fuck away from my kids and grandkids….and society in general because that is one sick piece of shit you call god.
I like aitm's line of thinking. So I withdraw my previous follow on question about the fate of all who existed before the first jesus world tour. I may want to reinstate it later, but you seem to be ignoring it so lets go down a different path for now.
We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written. To my knowledge, the scriptures were not written in color coded ink using certain colors to denote passages which are metaphor from those that are literal. Therefore, someone has to decide which is which. So who gets to decide? And why should I respect their authority any more than I do my own?
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 06:44:41 PM
I like aitm's line of thinking. So I withdraw my previous follow on question about the fate of all who existed before the first jesus world tour. I may want to reinstate it later, but you seem to be ignoring it so lets go down a different path for now.
We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written. To my knowledge, the scriptures were not written in color coded ink using certain colors to denote passages which are metaphor from those that are literal. Therefore, someone has to decide which is which. So who gets to decide? And why should I respect their authority any more than I do my own?
The best case scenario? A person's who's studied everything about the bible to the point where he can quote the most obscure verse in the book.
The Pope's the best shot we have.
I want randy's answer.
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 06:44:41 PM
I like aitm's line of thinking. So I withdraw my previous follow on question about the fate of all who existed before the first jesus world tour. I may want to reinstate it later, but you seem to be ignoring it so lets go down a different path for now.
I apologize. I did not mean to ignore that post. If you would like me to address it, just let me know the post #. Thanks.
QuoteWe understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written. To my knowledge, the scriptures were not written in color coded ink using certain colors to denote passages which are metaphor from those that are literal. Therefore, someone has to decide which is which. So who gets to decide? And why should I respect their authority any more than I do my own?
This is a good question, and the answer is going to open a huge can of worms, but that's okay...I'm ready.
From the
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
QuoteIII. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.
110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current.
"For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter.
"Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.
112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.
The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").
114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith. By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
As has been pointed out by others in this forum, the Bible did not simply drop out of the sky. And the New Testament, specifically, was written by the Church for the Church to understood within the context of the Church.
As you know, Jesus did not write a book; he promised to build a church (cf. Mt. 16:18-19) and to give all of the authority he had received from his Father to her. The Catholic Church is that church built by Jesus upon Peter, the rock and first pope. This Church speaks in his name and cannot lead the sheep of His flock astray by teaching error in His name. Consequently, we say that the Church is protected by the charism of infallibility.
When in doubt about the proper interpretation of scripture, look to the teaching of God's infallible Church for guidance.
Hope this helps.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_tiphat.gif)
Quote from: aitm on May 15, 2016, 06:20:53 PM
Question: Is every verse absolutely provably true?
Answer: No
Then I feel for a person who spends so much time in their life scurrying to confirm the religion their parents convinced them was true but now realizes it is complete bullshit but is too embarrassed to admit it to themselves, so they feverishly try to convince other people that the same bullshit it true to justify their gullibility and stupidity. Too bad randy, you had real promise when you were younger, but it's still not too late to bring some real relief to your tortured self. Do the work yourself. Go thru that babble one verse at a time and demand the same morality of your god as you would your child.
If you can do that and still claim your god is a god, then please stay the fuck away from my kids and grandkids….and society in general because that is one sick piece of shit you call god.
Carson projects his own internal emotions and psychology upon his imaginary sky fairies, with the help of prior indoctrination and peer pressure from others of similar persuasion. I doubt he is able to objectively see them as immoral or, as you put it, "sick pieces of shit". That's because if he did, he would be calling himself that as well. Can't have that.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 07:37:48 PM
When in doubt about the proper interpretation of scripture, look to the teaching of God's infallible Church for guidance.
Hope this helps.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_tiphat.gif)
Not really. In a nut shell I asked what makes them (those who get to decide how to interpret the bible) qualified to do so. And your answer is essentially because they said so. Maybe that answer works for you and maybe you're willing to gamble that the church is infallible simply because the church says so. But I don't for a minute believe the church is infallible. The church can kiss my ass for all I care.
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 01:25:45 PMGod sent his son here to spread the word and whatnot so that we could all be saved. So what fate awaited all the people who lived and died before jesus came for his first and so far only visit? I mean, were they all just fucked from the get go?
No. They awaited Jesus in a place we refer to as the "Limbo of the Fathers".
Also known as “Abraham’s Bosomâ€, Limbo of the Fathers gets its name from the Latin word “limbus†which means “hem†or “edge†of a garment. Limbo is envisioned as the edge of the Netherworld. It contained trees and water, and it was in this natural paradise that the ancients who died before the time of Christ dwelled after death while waiting for the Messiah to redeem them. When Jesus promised the good thief that “today you will be with me in Paradiseâ€, the Limbo of the Fathers is the place to which He was referring.
The term, “the harrowing of hell†refers to the harrowing or harvesting of the good souls who were waiting for Jesus to take them to heaven. He did not, however, descend all the way to the depths of Gehenna, the lowest point in the underworld, and Thomas Aquinas refutes this heresy in the Summa Theologiae (III, q.52, a. 2.)
The Limbo of the Fathers:
• Contains water
• Abraham is present
• Souls are at peace
Luke 16:22-23 (RSVCE)
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also dies and was buried 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom.
Below the Limbo of the Fathers, the Jews envisioned the “underworld†(Latin â€" infernus) as being made up of She’ol and Gehenna.
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 08:05:40 PM
Not really. In a nut shell I asked what makes them (those who get to decide how to interpret the bible) qualified to do so. And your answer is essentially because they said so. Maybe that answer works for you and maybe you're willing to gamble that the church is infallible simply because the church says so. But I don't for a minute believe the church is infallible. The church can kiss my ass for all I care.
And that is your choice. However, you should choose based upon knowledge and not upon your feelings.
Infallibility Explained by Reasoning from the ScripturesExcerpted from an article by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papac2.htm
It is clear even from Scripture that Peter had a special commission and special powers from Christ to care for the flock of Christ, to bind and loose, and to confirm his brothers in faith -- indeed he had the very powers of the keys to the Kingdom. Obviously, these powers were essential to the Church as constituted by Christ. And Christ promised to be with the Church always to the end of time, and said that the powers of hell would not prevail against it.
Now, clearly Christ knew that Peter would not live until the end of time, so he must have intended that the power he gave to Peter would be carried on until His return. After all, Peter was to feed "my" (Christ's) sheep, and so was serving as the vicar of Christ in Christ's absence. When Peter died, a new vicar would take his place, and so on, until Christ returned to claim his own. The parable of the steward awaiting his Master's return is very much to the point.
Just as clearly, Peter's authority also enabled himself (and his successors) to set forth the manner in which their successors would be selected, either by choosing the successor personally before death, or by setting forth some other means -- eventually, election by the college of cardinals.
Moroever, if these special and essential powers were to pass out of existence, it would be proof that Christ was no longer with his Church and that the powers of Hell had indeed prevailed. Therefore, again, Christ must have intended successors to Peter.
For this reason, we are not at all surprised that subsequent popes claimed to have the Petrine power and that the early Christian community accepted it without question. This authority was exercised by the fourth Pope, Clement, while St. John the Evangelist was still alive.
The earliest Christians were in a position to know Christ's will from other sources than Scripture (just as we today, under the guidance of the Church, are able to learn from Tradition).Now we come to the specific question of infallibility, by which the successors of Peter continue to confirm the brethren. Since the successors of Peter have the same Petrine authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation -- that is, in faith or morals.
Now, if a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ's own authority. Obviously, this cannot happen.Therefore, the logic of the situation demands that the Petrine power of confirming the brethren must be an infallible power. When the Pope intends by virtue of his supreme authority to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the entire Church, he MUST be protected by the Holy Spirit from error -- else the powers of hell would prevail.
This is the logic behind infallibility. But, of course, it is not based solely on logic, since it is attested in Scripture and was held by the earliest Christians and the Fathers and, indeed, by the vast majority of Christians from the beginning.Further, it is not a new thing. It was precisely defined at Vatican I in order to clarify what was at that time a confusing issue, but this was by way of stating clearly what Christ's teaching was, not by way of adding anything new. Vatican I therefore carefully enumerated the conditions under which the Pope was in fact infallible -- the same conditions which logic demands, which Scripture suggests, and which tradition shows us in action down through the centuries.
When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called "infallible" and the teaching which he articulates is termed "irreformable".
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 08:17:33 PM
And that is your choice. However, you should choose based upon knowledge and not upon your feelings.
Coming from a theist... :kiddingme:
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 06:44:41 PM
We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written.
The modern apologist likes to use this as some sort of reasonable excuse. However, we know that far from that line of thought, the majority of humans who lived and died well into the early 1900's did indeed think the sky was water. Though we know that history tells us many scholars surmised a type of hydrologic cycle it wasn't until the 1500's that someone started to put together a reasonable theory of it. None the less, that a few people or even a thousand, or ten thousand might understand the truth about it does not in the least excuse the fact that the babble was seen as fact for the vast majority of people and purported to be the whole truth and nutting but the truth. That we know now that it is bullshit, makes it even funnier that sad sacks like randy here laugh and tells us that is was never meant to be the truth even though he, you and I know that several billion dead thought it was very true, just like raping little girls was okay as well.
Quote from: Johan on May 15, 2016, 06:44:41 PM
I like aitm's line of thinking. So I withdraw my previous follow on question about the fate of all who existed before the first jesus world tour. I may want to reinstate it later, but you seem to be ignoring it so lets go down a different path for now.
We understand that certain parts of the bible are metaphor and not be taken literally while other parts are absolutely meant to be taken exactly as they are written. To my knowledge, the scriptures were not written in color coded ink using certain colors to denote passages which are metaphor from those that are literal. Therefore, someone has to decide which is which. So who gets to decide? And why should I respect their authority any more than I do my own?
OK - per you - which parts are "literal" and which parts are "metaphor"?
Watch - the stuff that condemns eating pig is metaphor and the stuff that condemns queers is literal - anyone want to bet?
Quote from: reasonist on May 15, 2016, 08:41:15 PM
Coming from a theist...
Why is this so surprising, reasonist?
Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.
Or do you just skim through the posts looking for opportunities to insert your quips?
Is there a question you wish to ask in this thread that you assert I have dodged elsewhere?
I DID start this thread with you in mind...
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 09:22:33 PM
Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.
As is ten thousand other religions, the only difference being that christians and muslims had no problem murdering those who disagreed where so many other religions didn't care that much if someone believed otherwise…….must be proof that these gods are more righteous eh?
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 09:02:47 PM
OK - per you - which parts are "literal" and which parts are "metaphor"?
Watch - the stuff that condemns eating pig is metaphor and the stuff that condemns queers is literal - anyone want to bet?
There are 73 books in the Bible, so it's no small task to document all that.
It might be necessary to go line by line in some cases...
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 06:46:31 PM
The best case scenario? A person's who's studied everything about the bible to the point where he can quote the most obscure verse in the book.
The Pope's the best shot we have.
Have to disagree with you there, dtq123--the pope is one of the worst to decide. Why? Because he is totally vested in making the bible say exactly what he wants it to say. That underlines everything he is about on a personal and professional level. The best people to interpret the book are non-religious scholars. Actually, anybody can do it if they spend enough time. With the use of different translations, textual criticism, literatary criticism, concordances, an open mind; there are enough resources for you, for example, to figure out what the author was trying to say.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 09:22:33 PM
Why is this so surprising, reasonist?
Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event.
Or do you just skim through the posts looking for opportunities to insert your quips?
Is there a question you wish to ask in this thread that you assert I have dodged elsewhere?
I DID start this thread with you in mind...
I am flattered!
Have you looked up the ancient mythologies I have mentioned many times now? Did you recognize your bible stories?
Randy,
Do you ever tell others that Jesus condoned the killing of children that curse their parents, or do you HIDE from this biblical axiom as most pseudo-christians do?
JESUS QUOTE: "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15:3)
I know that I am preaching to the choir with you because you know that the “command†that Jesus was referring too, and that was in effect at His time, and still is in effect today, was when Moses, inspired by Yahweh words, said: “Honor your father and mother, and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5) Every word includes Jesus’ statement that children that curse their parents should be put to death.
What is the latest Catholic spin on this very disturbing passage about your ever loving and forgiving Jesus character? I like to keep up with the latest "grasping for straws apologetics" that Christians use, so I am hoping that you can show us a new spin on this topic in the hopes of you saving face, okay? Of course, your spin has to be biblically vouchsafed, otherwise it is just more hearsay, rhetoric, and wishful thinking that makes you the fool.
Randy, awaiting a cogent response this time, thanks.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 09:10:40 AM
If you have free will, then you, and you alone, are responsible for your choices.
Your parents punished you when you were a child. Police officers issue speeding tickets if you drive too fast. Judges send you to jail if you kill someone.
So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient.
If you have free will but the bible does not actually promote free will. Many specific times does it say god makes people evil and then punishes them for it. The most obvious and classic example is when god hardens phero's heart. He's interfering with free will directly.
I don't believe in free will btw I feel that is just the illusion of the human thought process. Only so many people exercise anything that could be compared to free will.
Most humans practice nee jerk reactions. Your environment and brain chemistry control you for the most part. You may think that your thoughts are your own but change the brain chemistry a bit and you will change a persons thought processes at least temporarily till they develop a tolerance to it. This is how mental illness and drug addiction work.
God does many ridiculous things in the bible. Some of it just to show off his power. The most ridiculous thing IMO is when he struck down the tower of bable (as if humans could reach heaven any way) and made different languages. Making one language makes more sense since the bible seems impossible to translate according to christians who change the translations based on their needs. An all knowing and perfect god would never do such a thing.
Not that, that's how languages came about developed and separated over time. There never was any one language. That's the historical and factual way to explain different languages.
Also Jesus may have seemed profound to you but his so called teachings are nothing new. Many legends tales and religions had stories with the same teachings. It's nothing new. Even if you can agree whether it's profound or not. I say not after all "treat thy neighbor as you want to be treated" goes a step farther to say treat thy neighbor how they want to be treated. I would go even farther and say to treat them as they need to be treated. So you see not so profound now is it?
Jesus fails to be impressive when you do a little research and branch out to study other religions of the time in the area. You will see it is just one religion borrowing from the others. Nothing more impressive than that.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 16, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Randy,
Do you ever tell others that Jesus condoned the killing of children that curse their parents, or do you HIDE from this biblical axiom as most pseudo-christians do?
JESUS QUOTE: "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and anyone who curses his father or mother MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. (Matthew 15:3)
I know that I am preaching to the choir with you because you know that the “command†that Jesus was referring too, and that was in effect at His time, and still is in effect today, was when Moses, inspired by Yahweh words, said: “Honor your father and mother, and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.†(Exodus 21:17)
“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5) Every word includes Jesus’ statement that children that curse their parents should be put to death.
What is the latest Catholic spin on this very disturbing passage about your ever loving and forgiving Jesus character? I like to keep up with the latest "grasping for straws apologetics" that Christians use, so I am hoping that you can show us a new spin on this topic in the hopes of you saving face, okay? Of course, your spin has to be biblically vouchsafed, otherwise it is just more hearsay, rhetoric, and wishful thinking that makes you the fool.
Randy, awaiting a cogent response this time, thanks.
You would benefit from a careful reading of the Book of Hebrews; here are two key passages:
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,â€
he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€"now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
The Mosaic Laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply under the New Covenant established by Jesus.
"So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient."
So if I choose reason over faith, I get roasted forever. God doesn't like reasonable people then. OK. I can feel the love already...
If I exercise the very thing that your "creator" bestowed on us, rational, skeptical thought, I get incinerated for eternity. On the other hand blind gullibility is rewarded eternally.
Now you know why we are atheists.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 16, 2016, 07:55:48 PM
You would benefit from a careful reading of the Book of Hebrews; here are two key passages:
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,†he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritanceâ€"now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
The Mosaic Laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply under the New Covenant established by Jesus.
Randy,
HELLO, ANYBODY HOME TODAY?
I have already schooled you on the biblical FACT that the Old Testament is to be followed today, period!
In the Sermon on the Mount, your alleged bible Jesus character makes it clear that He DID NOT come to destroy, rescind, nullify or abrogate the Old Testament Laws, all 613 of them:
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). With these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws to the permanence of heaven and earth, GET IT???Relative to the above stipulations, has heaven and earth passed away or disappeared yet as Jesus described? No, it has not because everyone has not seen the biblical proof herewith! “ “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare†(2 Peter 3:10)
Furthermore, the alleged bible Jesus stated; “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.†(John 15:10) Jesus can only keep His Father’s commands in the Old Testament that He obviously condones, which are the 613 Mosaic Laws. In your case as a Catholic, does your Jesus, as Yahweh, have the authority to usurp His Old Testament commands? NO, he does not! Do you see where I can't take this comedic biblical story? Huh?
Randy, barring your complete IGNORANCE of the scriptures, and showing everyone that your primitive bible contradicts itself,
ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR in Matthew 5:18?!
"Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event." ... not quite true. The Church is historical, the supernatural mumbo jumbo is not. And personally I doubt there was a historical Jesus, just a celestial Christ ... and I do think that John the Baptist and Paul are historical people. Not that it matters. I can't cross-examine John the Baptist, Paul or a historical Jesus. I can talk to Catholics however, if they let me ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 11:16:35 PM
"Christianity is an evidential religion based upon a historical event." ... not quite true. The Church is historical, the supernatural mumbo jumbo is not. And personally I doubt there was a historical Jesus, just a celestial Christ ... and I do think that John the Baptist and Paul are historical people. Not that it matters. I can't cross-examine John the Baptist, Paul or a historical Jesus. I can talk to Catholics however, if they let me ;-)
Leonardo da Vinci thought so. John the Baptist was the real deal, not Jesus. Until he got served on a platter.
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 11:41:57 PM
Leonardo da Vinci thought so. John the Baptist was the real deal, not Jesus. Until he got served on a platter.
This is what happens when you tell truth to power. Works he same everywhere, and for all time.
Very well. I have a question. A sensible question. A question that will tax your I.Q. to its very limits and stretch the sinews of you knowledge to bursting point. The question is this: Given that God is infinite, and that the universe is also infinite... would you like a toasted teacake?
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 08:13:02 PM
"So, of course God can punish you for the bad choices you make, and His judgments are even more just than those others because He is omniscient."
So if I choose reason over faith, I get roasted forever.
As has been shown in a various threads, the evidence for the resurrection Jesus is significant, and therefore, faith in God is reasonable.
QuoteGod doesn't like reasonable people then. OK. I can feel the love already...
If Christianity is at odds with reason, then why are our scriptures full of references to the importance of reasoning and presenting clear defenses of our faith. And why would we say that God gave us reason if we are not supposed to use it?
QuoteIf I exercise the very thing that your "creator" bestowed on us, rational, skeptical thought, I get incinerated for eternity.
To the contrary, I think that the right use of your reason will lead you to source of reason itself, God.
QuoteOn the other hand blind gullibility is rewarded eternally.
My concordance doesn't contain that word...do you have a verse backing up your assertion here?
QuoteNow you know why we are atheists.
Generally, yes. But you have not been honest enough to admit the real reasons.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 16, 2016, 09:03:46 PM
Randy,
HELLO, ANYBODY HOME TODAY?
I have already schooled you on the biblical FACT that the Old Testament is to be followed today, period!
In the Sermon on the Mount, your alleged bible Jesus character makes it clear that He DID NOT come to destroy, rescind, nullify or abrogate the Old Testament Laws, all 613 of them: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18).
With these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws to the permanence of heaven and earth, GET IT???
Relative to the above stipulations, has heaven and earth passed away or disappeared yet as Jesus described? No, it has not because everyone has not seen the biblical proof herewith! “ “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare†(2 Peter 3:10)
Furthermore, the alleged bible Jesus stated; “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.†(John 15:10) Jesus can only keep His Father’s commands in the Old Testament that He obviously condones, which are the 613 Mosaic Laws. In your case as a Catholic, does your Jesus, as Yahweh, have the authority to usurp His Old Testament commands? NO, he does not! Do you see where I can't take this comedic biblical story? Huh?
Randy, barring your complete IGNORANCE of the scriptures, and showing everyone that your primitive bible contradicts itself, ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR in Matthew 5:18?!
Matthew 5:18
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law
until everything is accomplished.John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “
It is finished.†With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Everything that God sent Jesus into the world to do was accomplished or finished at the cross. The Old Covenant no longer applies.
I think I already gave you some good reading material, but I suspect you ignored it. Here it is again:
Why We Are Not Bound by Everything in the Old Lawhttp://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-we-are-not-bound-by-everything-in-the-old-law
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 11:41:57 PM
Leonardo da Vinci thought so. John the Baptist was the real deal, not Jesus. Until he got served on a platter.
Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?
Quote from: widdershins on May 17, 2016, 11:05:11 AM
Very well. I have a question. A sensible question. A question that will tax your I.Q. to its very limits and stretch the sinews of you knowledge to bursting point. The question is this: Given that God is infinite, and that the universe is also infinite... would you like a toasted teacake?
Yum! Of course I would! We call them "English Muffins" here in the states.
BTW, God is pure spirit and does not occupy space at all.
"Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?"
L.d.Vinci did imply in ALL of his paintings and his only sculpture. Open dissent or opinion was a death sentence.
"As has been shown in a various threads, the evidence for the resurrection Jesus is significant, and therefore, faith in God is reasonable. "
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's still not evidence.
If it would be reasonable to believe in mythology, why then did the RCC torture and kill hundreds of thousands because they were accused of doubting? If the evidence is clear, it doesn't have to be enforced with brutal mass murder, and dissent is welcome because it can be refuted with FACTS.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:12:45 PM
Yum! Of course I would! We call them "English Muffins" here in the states.
BTW, God is pure spirit and does not occupy space at all.
It was a Talky Toaster quote from
Red Dwarf.
God is a figment of the imagination. Nothing more. If you state your beliefs as fact, I'll state mine as fact.
Quote from: widdershins on May 17, 2016, 12:40:17 PM
It was a Talky Toaster quote from Red Dwarf.
God is a figment of the imagination. Nothing more. If you state your beliefs as fact, I'll state mine as fact.
Is it your opinion that God is not pure spirit?
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
"Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?"
L.d.Vincy did imply in ALL of his paintings and his only sculpture. Open dissent or opinion was a death sentence.
"As has been shown in a various threads, the evidence for the resurrection Jesus is significant, and therefore, faith in God is reasonable. "
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's still not evidence.
If it would be reasonable to believe in mythology, why then did the RCC torture and kill hundreds of thousands because they were accused of doubting? If the evidence is clear, it doesn't have to be enforced with brutal mass murder, and dissent is welcome because it can be refuted with FACTS.
For a group of people who are so damned sure that punishment will be doled out in the afterlife by the ultimate authority Christians, both throughout history and still today, are awfully concerned about punishment NOW, both doling it out themselves and pointing out Gods' apparently plentiful "opening acts" of punishment here on earth.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:54:15 PM
Is it your opinion that God is not pure spirit?
No. It is my
belief that God is pure imagination. It is not fact. And while your belief that God is spirit is backed by scripture and, I'm sure, plenty of other sources, your belief of the exact nature of a spirit is more along the lines of "speculation". Regardless, your "beliefs" are not "facts". If they you had facts you wouldn't need faith.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:54:15 PM
Is it your opinion that God is not pure spirit?
It's not an opinion--it's a FACT god(s) is a fiction--pure fiction at that.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 11:57:05 AM
Matthew 5:18
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.†With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Everything that God sent Jesus into the world to do was accomplished or finished at the cross. The Old Covenant no longer applies.
I think I already gave you some good reading material, but I suspect you ignored it. Here it is again:
Why We Are Not Bound by Everything in the Old Law
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-we-are-not-bound-by-everything-in-the-old-law
Randy,
Firstly, I would suggest that you take a reading comprehension class at your nearest High School post haste in the hopes that you won’t make yourself look to to be the fool in your future posts. Agreed? It literally pains me to watch you grasp for the proverbial straws that are just not there for you!
Now, until you accomplish the above, I am going to go real slow with you by taking baby steps to help you realize that what was right in front of your face, you didn’t see because of the fact that either you didn’t want to see it, or by the fact that your Catholic church through their insidious apologetics relies upon their flock being totally inept and ignorant! Okay?
VERSE IN QUESTION: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18).AGAIN, with these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws, ALL 613 OF THEM, to the permanence of heaven and earth, GET IT???Relative to Matthew 5:18 above, when will heaven and earth pass away so the Old Testament laws can no longer be followed? When your alleged Jesus returns as this verse explicitly states, to wit:
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare†(2 Peter 3:10) So, when Jesus said that not one jot or tittle will pass from the 613 Old Testament laws
till heaven and earth pass away, as described in Matthew 5:18, and within 2 Peter 3:10
the heavens and earth do pass away, which is a prerequisite to not having to follow the 613 Old Testament laws anymore, is with accordance of Jesus’ Second Coming! 2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, you're ignorant to biblical axioms, and I am not. GET IT???
AGAIN, the Old Testament Laws, ALL 613 OF THEM, are to be followed until heaven and earth pass away by the return of your mythical Jesus character with his Second Coming, period! GET IT???Randy, you can show me other verses that say otherwise to what is presented above with biblical axioms, and that is stated by Jesus himself, but that only muddies the water, not only by calling Jesus a LIAR in Matthew 5:18, but it blatantly shows your bible to contradict itself! Do you really want to go there? If you do, then thats another topic thread.Randy, you’ve already paved your way to the depths of the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your demise by doing the following;
1.
YOU CALLED JESUS A MORAL MONSTER, as being god of the Old Testament, and by doing so, you blasphemed the spirit of Yahweh as part of the Triune, which in turn, you committed the Unpardonable Sin as described in Matthew 12:31-32! http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10036.15 REPLY #18
2.
YOU ARE NOW CALLING JESUS LIAR in Matthew 5:18 and 2 Peter 3:10 by insidiously trying in vain to rewrite the bible by not recognizing that
heaven and earth have to pass away first before the Old Testament Laws are no longer viable!
Listen, when will the insolence towards your Jesus character stop? You’re already headed for Hell upon your demise as biblically shown above, so are you taking the position that you can disparage your Jesus all you want because it doesn’t matter anymore? Is that it?
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.(2 Timothy 4:3)
Quote from: widdershins on May 17, 2016, 01:19:26 PM
No. It is my belief that God is pure imagination. It is not fact. And while your belief that God is spirit is backed by scripture and, I'm sure, plenty of other sources, your belief of the exact nature of a spirit is more along the lines of "speculation". Regardless, your "beliefs" are not "facts". If they you had facts you wouldn't need faith.
So, when we are having fun together here in the forum...just kicking around funny stories, etc...we should try to keep in mind that the fact that the universe is infinite doesn't really affect a God who occupies no space at all.
We should be consistent even when it's all in funsies.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 17, 2016, 04:19:14 PM
Randy,
Firstly, I would suggest that you take a reading comprehension class at your nearest High School post haste in the hopes that you won’t make yourself look to to be the fool in your future posts. Agreed? It literally pains me to watch you grasp for the proverbial straws that are just not there for you!
Now, until you accomplish the above, I am going to go real slow with you by taking baby steps to help you realize that what was right in front of your face, you didn’t see because of the fact that either you didn’t want to see it, or by the fact that your Catholic church through their insidious apologetics relies upon their flock being totally inept and ignorant! Okay?
VERSE IN QUESTION: "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18).
AGAIN, with these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws, ALL 613 OF THEM, to the permanence of heaven and earth, GET IT???
Relative to Matthew 5:18 above, when will heaven and earth pass away so the Old Testament laws can no longer be followed? When your alleged Jesus returns as this verse explicitly states, to wit: “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare†(2 Peter 3:10)
So, when Jesus said that not one jot or tittle will pass from the 613 Old Testament laws till heaven and earth pass away, as described in Matthew 5:18, and within 2 Peter 3:10 the heavens and earth do pass away, which is a prerequisite to not having to follow the 613 Old Testament laws anymore, is with accordance of Jesus’ Second Coming! 2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, you're ignorant to biblical axioms, and I am not. GET IT???
AGAIN, the Old Testament Laws, ALL 613 OF THEM, are to be followed until heaven and earth pass away by the return of your mythical Jesus character with his Second Coming, period! GET IT???
Randy, you can show me other verses that say otherwise to what is presented above with biblical axioms, and that is stated by Jesus himself, but that only muddies the water, not only by calling Jesus a LIAR in Matthew 5:18, but it blatantly shows your bible to contradict itself! Do you really want to go there? If you do, then thats another topic thread.
Randy, you’ve already paved your way to the depths of the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your demise by doing the following;
1. YOU CALLED JESUS A MORAL MONSTER, as being god of the Old Testament, and by doing so, you blasphemed the spirit of Yahweh as part of the Triune, which in turn, you committed the Unpardonable Sin as described in Matthew 12:31-32! http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10036.15 REPLY #18
2. YOU ARE NOW CALLING JESUS LIAR in Matthew 5:18 and 2 Peter 3:10 by insidiously trying in vain to rewrite the bible by not recognizing that heaven and earth have to pass away first before the Old Testament Laws are no longer viable!
Listen, when will the insolence towards your Jesus character stop? You’re already headed for Hell upon your demise as biblically shown above, so are you taking the position that you can disparage your Jesus all you want because it doesn’t matter anymore? Is that it?
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.(2 Timothy 4:3)
Fascinating. Can you tell me more about hell?
Like, how would someone avoid it? What does the Bible say about that? (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
"Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?"
L.d.Vinci did imply in ALL of his paintings and his only sculpture. Open dissent or opinion was a death sentence.
"As has been shown in a various threads, the evidence for the resurrection Jesus is significant, and therefore, faith in God is reasonable. "
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's still not evidence.
If it would be reasonable to believe in mythology, why then did the RCC torture and kill hundreds of thousands because they were accused of doubting? If the evidence is clear, it doesn't have to be enforced with brutal mass murder, and dissent is welcome because it can be refuted with FACTS.
Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 03:48:45 PM
It's not an opinion--it's a FACT god(s) is a fiction--pure fiction at that.
Can you prove your positive statement that God is a fiction?
If so, what is your evidence for this?
There is a shit ton of evidence god doesn't exist it's just that you refuse to see it. There is no reason what so ever to believe in a god! It does nothing for you other than psychological damage!
Stick around and try to learn something. If you keep reading what's written instead of ignoring it you might come around. The fact that you're here says something to me.
Quote from: doorknob on May 17, 2016, 05:03:29 PM
There is a shit ton of evidence god doesn't exist it's just that you refuse to see it. There is no reason what so ever to believe in a god! It does nothing for you other than psychological damage!
Stick around and try to learn something. If you keep reading what's written instead of ignoring it you might come around. The fact that you're here says something to me.
Sure. It says I would like to see this evidence that God does not exist.
What have you got to show me?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 04:55:13 PM
Fascinating. Can you tell me more about hell?
Like, how would someone avoid it? What does the Bible say about that? (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
Again, as shown above, RANDY represents the prime example of a pseudo-christian, where he threw in the towel in defeat once again with another child-like statement to RUN AWAY FROM ME SHOWING HIM ONCE AGAIN TO BE THE BLATANT CHRISTIAN FOOL relative to the FACT that Christians are to follow the 613 Old Testament Laws, even today as shown in my reply 86 within this thread! LOLRandy has absolutely no credence anymore because he
RUNS FROM BIBLICAL FACT because of its embarrassment to his primitive Catholic faith, what's new? NOTHING!
Randy, you do not have the acumen to discuss your primitive faith and bible with me anymore, therefore, I would suggest that for you to save face, just stay away from my postings and you won't have that proverbial egg upon your face anymore, notwithstanding, other Atheists in this forum making you the fool regarding your faith, okay? If you do have the audacity to engage me once again, then prepare yourself to remove more egg from your face, okay?
Randy, may I suggest a bible verse that is so apropos to your outright ignorance relative to your faith, and that you should follow, that will save you from further embarrassment on this forum? You can thank me later.
“Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.†(Proverbs 17:28)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 04:57:39 PM
Can you prove your positive statement that God is a fiction?
If so, what is your evidence for this?
Sure--here it is..................but I don't want to waste my time with the full explanation, but it is the same exact evidence that Pecos Bill doesn't exist, or that Santa doesn't exist, or Mithra doesn't exist, or bigfoot doesn't exist, or mermaids don't exist, or that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does exist.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 05:46:38 PM
Sure--here it is..................but I don't want to waste my time with the full explanation, but it is the same exact evidence that Pecos Bill doesn't exist, or that Santa doesn't exist, or Mithra doesn't exist, or bigfoot doesn't exist, or mermaids don't exist, or that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does exist.
Mike CI,
Lest you forget about the
Flying Spaghetti Monster too! Pseudo-Christians like Randy can't prove this entity doesn't exist!
"Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?"
No word from John. L.d.Vinci inferred in his art that John the Baptist was the real son of god. Not Jesus. I hope this time it's clear. I have no opinion on that, you can take that any way you like.
Again, no answer to my repeated question: If the RCC has/had irrefutable evidence or facts about their claims, why then did it find it necessary to kill hundreds of thousands (during the 700 years of inquisition alone) via torture and burning?
If the church had all the facts and evidence, no need to silence dissent with brutality. A simple show of facts would have sufficed. If the truth is on your side, no need to kill the ones who doubt.
Usually when the priests challenged the rabbis, the priests lost ... and then had to physically threaten the rabbis in retribution for their loss. We Jews even make a famous joke about this.
Quote from: Baruch on May 17, 2016, 06:16:43 PM
Usually when the priests challenged the rabbis, the priests lost ... and then had to physically threaten the rabbis in retribution for their loss. We Jews even make a famous joke about this.
No! Threats from religious dogma and the clergy? Unheard of!
It seems that this is the only way to keep the racket going. Threats of everlasting torture..."but we have all the FACTS! And if you can't see the obvious, then we have to break your back on the wheel and roast you!"
The Inquisition doesn't like to be shown up as a bunch of sadistic thugs ;-(
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 17, 2016, 05:42:02 PM
Again, as shown above, RANDY represents the prime example of a pseudo-christian, where he threw in the towel in defeat once again with another child-like statement to RUN AWAY FROM ME SHOWING HIM ONCE AGAIN TO BE THE BLATANT CHRISTIAN FOOL relative to the FACT that Christians are to follow the 613 Old Testament Laws, even today as shown in my reply 86 within this thread! LOL
Randy has absolutely no credence anymore because he RUNS FROM BIBLICAL FACT because of its embarrassment to his primitive Catholic faith, what's new? NOTHING!
Randy, you do not have the acumen to discuss your primitive faith and bible with me anymore, therefore, I would suggest that for you to save face, just stay away from my postings and you won't have that proverbial egg upon your face anymore, notwithstanding, other Atheists in this forum making you the fool regarding your faith, okay? If you do have the audacity to engage me once again, then prepare yourself to remove more egg from your face, okay?
Randy, may I suggest a bible verse that is so apropos to your outright ignorance relative to your faith, and that you should follow, that will save you from further embarrassment on this forum? You can thank me later.
“Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.†(Proverbs 17:28)
You seem to be implying that I am a fool. Is that correct? Are you calling me a fool?
On another note: Could you explain the famous "Romans Road" for me? I've always wanted to understand more about that.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 05:46:38 PM
Sure--here it is..................but I don't want to waste my time with the full explanation, but it is the same exact evidence that Pecos Bill doesn't exist, or that Santa doesn't exist, or Mithra doesn't exist, or bigfoot doesn't exist, or mermaids don't exist, or that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does exist.
No quotes from articles written by scholars? No links to Wikipedia even???
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 06:05:30 PM
"Who did John the Baptist say that Jesus was?"
No word from John. L.d.Vinci inferred in his art that John the Baptist was the real son of god. Not Jesus. I hope this time it's clear. I have no opinion on that, you can take that any way you like.
Again, no answer to my repeated question: If the RCC has/had irrefutable evidence or facts about their claims, why then did it find it necessary to kill hundreds of thousands (during the 700 years of inquisition alone) via torture and burning?
If the church had all the facts and evidence, no need to silence dissent with brutality. A simple show of facts would have sufficed. If the truth is on your side, no need to kill the ones who doubt.
Oh, you mentioned the Inquisition. I missed that the first time since I don't read your posts for content since there isn't usually any.
INQUISITION â€" How Many People Were Killed Really?When it comes to the number of people killed by the Inquisition, non-Catholics are prone to accepting wildly inflated numbers.
Edward Peters, professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania, writes:
Quote“The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.†(Edward Peters, Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989, 87.)
Italian historian Andrea Del Col estimates that out of 62,000 cases judged by Inquisition in Italy after 1542
only 2% (1,250) ended with death sentence.
Wikipedia estimates the total number at around
3,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
More here by people who know more than you do about the subject:
An Inquisition Primer By Robert P. Lockwood
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/an-inquisition-primer
Secrets of the Spanish Inquisition Revealed By Robert P. Lockwood
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/secrets-of-the-spanish-inquisition-revealed
A New Look At the Spanish Inquisitionby Edward O'Brien
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT
The Inquisition was mostly in Spain, and mostly used to root out hidden Jews and Mozarabs. Particularly those who had claimed to convert, but really didn't. This was very lucrative anti-Semitism and anti-Moorish work, because the estates of the accused weren't left to rot.
The Catholic Church has always been anti-Semitic, and therefore anti-Jesus.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
You seem to be implying that I am a fool. Is that correct? Are you calling me a fool?
On another note: Could you explain the famous "Romans Road" for me? I've always wanted to understand more about that.
Randy,
Why do I always smell fish with your weak child like posts? Oh yeah, I know, because of you throwing in RED HERRINGS into your ever so wanting posts so you can take the limelight off of your blatant ignorance concerning your faith, by RUNNING AWAY from it! Whereas, in this case, you RAN from the FACT that all pseudo-christians like you are to follow the 613 Commandments in the Old Testament, period! Nice try Randy, but that old ruse won't work with me, but I am sure you're used to it working with your equally dumbfounded cohorts of your Catholic faith.
I am not implying that you're fool, but with an absoluteness, I am stating that you are in fact a fool and will continue to be a fool regarding your primitive faith, as you have shown us ad infinitum in this forum, by the mere fact of you always RUNNING away from your faith in total embarrassment where you can't defend the indefensible. 2+2=4.
Randy, seriously, you are who you pretend to be, and that is an assumed knowledgable apologist of the primitive Catholic faith, which you fail miserably at this assumed position. What did I tell you in the post above, do you really want more egg upon your face? Really?
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14327773994_b13e6b9089.jpg)
"Randy, come back, don't run away from your Bronze and Iron Age Catholic cult, are you that afraid of the biblical truth?" :(
Oh, you mentioned the Inquisition. I missed that the first time since I don't read your posts for content since there isn't usually any.
I know, I know, it's the content that continuously proves you wrong. But you always re-enforce the low opinion we have of you already.
So now you play the numbers game after I exposed your drivel consistently? First I proved you wrong with the other monotheistic gods, and then you got embarrassed with your ignorance of the fact that your club could wipe out hunger and many diseases permanently by providing water resources and livestock but keeps instead accumulating money tax free
"However, if we are simply talking about official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, most contemporary experts would place the total number of executions between 3,000 and 10,000, with perhaps an additional 100,000 to 125,000 dying in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment. The Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in even fewer such deaths (cf. Joseph Pérez, The Spanish Inquisition [Profile Books, 2006], 173; R. J. Rummel, Death by Government [Transaction Publishers, 2009], 62)." That's just in Spain.
"Subtitle: In NEWS1675, we revealed that one of the psychological devices priests used to get their female penitents to have sex with them was the threat to lie to the "Holy" Inquisition, so the woman would be torturously murdered. Since history books have been largely rewritten, few people know specific details of this murderous campaign that lasted over 1,200 years, killing 75 million people. But, once you understand the unprecedented horrors of the Inquisition, you will never look at Roman Catholicism the same way again."
Of course that doesn't include all other victims of your blood cult from the Natives to the Hussites, to the "witches"
The truth lies probably somewhere in between but it really doesn't matter. If it was only 10 people, WHY????
If your claim (and your cult's) is true and you have all the evidence and facts, why torture and kill people who doubt or disagree? And why defend such a vile organization???? Rational people present their evidence and let the facts speak for themselves. If you have to torture people to buy into your myths, then it's obvious there is no evidence, just brute force.
The Gestapo was the modern German equivalent of the Inquisition. And nobody expects the Gestapo ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on May 18, 2016, 07:00:27 AM
The Gestapo was the modern German equivalent of the Inquisition. And nobody expects the Gestapo ;-(
What do you mean by 'expect'?
HEY RANDY!
I’ve easily “stumped†you as an assumed pseudo-christian apologist twice now, where you RAN AWAY from Jesus saying and condoning the killing of children that curse their parents (reply 67) and where you’re STILL RUNNING from where I easily owned you on the topic of pseudo-christians are to follow the 613 Old Testament Laws (reply 93). How embarrassing for you, but I am sure you’re getting used to it by now.
What a great idea of you starting this Stump the pseudo-christian Apologist topic where we can keep all of your "inept run away from your Catholic faith and bible" posts in one thread! Ready for number 3 from me? I am assuming that you have other pairs of running shoes to use for this and future embarrassing beat downs to your primitive Catholic faith, yes?
Randy, simply put, can you explain the Trinity Doctrine and have a modicum of looking intelligent in the aftermath?
Randy, put your quote below to work, begin.
RANDY QUOTE: Modern Christians ought to be able to explain and defend the Bible for two reasons:
1. It gets attacked a lot by atheists, Muslims and others, and
2. It can be defended rather easily with a little study.
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10065.0 (Reply 14)
Quote from: reasonist on May 18, 2016, 09:30:29 AM
What do you mean by 'expect'?
Old joke. Sounded better in German.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 17, 2016, 11:05:18 PM
I am stating that you are in fact a fool and will continue to be a fool
Okay. I
thought you were calling me a fool, but I just wanted to be sure. You have confirmed it. From my red letter edition:
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And
anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Well, there you go. You are danger of the fire of hell because you have said "You fool! to me.
Don't you see?
ETERNAL DAMNATION AWAITS YOU BECAUSE THIS SIN HAS BEEN COMMITTED BY YOU!Is there any hope for you? Does God offer you any means of escaping the wrath to come?
Does Jesus offer ANY MEANS OF FORGIVENESS? Quote me the verses if you can...while you still can...
[/parody]
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
How typically christian of you to threaten with hell fire instead of having a real answer.
I'm no longer amused.
OK, Randy, here's a question I hope hasn't been dealt with already (I haven't time to read the whole thread):
How can you praise and even worship such a heinous, cruel an nasty being as the God as depicted in the Bible (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=164.0)?
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 11:06:04 PM
Oh, you mentioned the Inquisition. I missed that the first time since I don't read your posts for content since there isn't usually any.
I know, I know, it's the content that continuously proves you wrong. But you always re-enforce the low opinion we have of you already.
So now you play the numbers game after I exposed your drivel consistently? First I proved you wrong with the other monotheistic gods, and then you got embarrassed with your ignorance of the fact that your club could wipe out hunger and many diseases permanently by providing water resources and livestock but keeps instead accumulating money tax free
"However, if we are simply talking about official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, most contemporary experts would place the total number of executions between 3,000 and 10,000, with perhaps an additional 100,000 to 125,000 dying in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment. The Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in even fewer such deaths (cf. Joseph Pérez, The Spanish Inquisition [Profile Books, 2006], 173; R. J. Rummel, Death by Government [Transaction Publishers, 2009], 62)." That's just in Spain.
"Subtitle: In NEWS1675, we revealed that one of the psychological devices priests used to get their female penitents to have sex with them was the threat to lie to the "Holy" Inquisition, so the woman would be torturously murdered. Since history books have been largely rewritten, few people know specific details of this murderous campaign that lasted over 1,200 years, killing 75 million people. But, once you understand the unprecedented horrors of the Inquisition, you will never look at Roman Catholicism the same way again."
Of course that doesn't include all other victims of your blood cult from the Natives to the Hussites, to the "witches"
The truth lies probably somewhere in between but it really doesn't matter. If it was only 10 people, WHY????
If your claim (and your cult's) is true and you have all the evidence and facts, why torture and kill people who doubt or disagree? And why defend such a vile organization???? Rational people present their evidence and let the facts speak for themselves. If you have to torture people to buy into your myths, then it's obvious there is no evidence, just brute force.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/rotfl.gif)
Published in 2006, this book has...wait for it...a whopping
13 reviews on Amazon.
25% of those reviews are 1-star.
Yeah, I read some of his biographical information online. Interesting.
I think modern scholarship has left Perez behind.
Quote from: doorknob on May 18, 2016, 04:33:04 PM
How typically christian of you to threaten with hell fire instead of having a real answer.
I'm no longer amused.
Apparently, you have missed his posts to me and therefore did not understand the parody.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 18, 2016, 11:31:43 AM
I’ve easily “stumped†you as an assumed pseudo-christian apologist twice now, where you RAN AWAY from Jesus saying and condoning the killing of children that curse their parents (reply 67) and where you’re STILL RUNNING from where I easily owned you on the topic of pseudo-christians are to follow the 613 Old Testament Laws (reply 93). How embarrassing for you, but I am sure you’re getting used to it by now.
Did you read the article which I posted (twice) explaining that the Old Covenant with Israel does not apply to the church which is under the New Covenant? Both of your questions were dependent upon the Old Covenant still being in force.
This is not a "Catholic" thing. All Christians would say the same.
You're 0 for 2. Do you really want to take that third swing before slinking back to the dugout after striking out?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 18, 2016, 04:20:58 PM
Okay. I thought you were calling me a fool, but I just wanted to be sure. You have confirmed it. From my red letter edition:
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Well, there you go. You are danger of the fire of hell because you have said "You fool! to me.
Don't you see? ETERNAL DAMNATION AWAITS YOU BECAUSE THIS SIN HAS BEEN COMMITTED BY YOU!
Is there any hope for you? Does God offer you any means of escaping the wrath to come?
Does Jesus offer ANY MEANS OF FORGIVENESS? Quote me the verses if you can...while you still can...
[/parody]
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Randy,
Psst, did you notice that you missed something? Huh? Hmmm, lets see, what have you missed for the third time in this thread, hmmmmm, OH YEAH, YOU FORGOT TO ADDRESS MY REFUTATION TO YOUR CONTINUED IGNORANCE TO YOUR CATHOLIC FAITH WHERE YOU'RE TO FOLLOW ALL 613 LAWS SET FORTH IN THE OLD TESTAMENT! Why do you remain SILENT to this fact, as if its going away anytime soon? Do you want to continue to be known as the FOOL here on this forum by continually RUNNING AWAY FROM THIS BIBLICAL AXIOM? Huh?
^^^ RANDY, YOUR CONTINUED SILENCE TO THE ABOVE BIBLICAL FACT SPEAKS VOLUMES OF EMBARRASSMENT REGARDING YOUR CATHOLIC CULT! ^^^Using your ever so weak and comical analogy about me going to your Catholic Hell when I can't accept your primitive faith to begin with, and because I have called you a fool, which you are, then in turn using the same skewed logic that you're used too, then you're going to Allah's hell upon your demise because you don't believe in Islam, get it? Now what? Since you don't believe in Islam and Allah god, and shown elsewhere when you called your Jesus a MORAL MONSTER, and that you called him a LIAR, you'll now be burning in TWO HELLS, the Christian and Islam Hells! LOL "Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment." (Qur'an 4:56)
"For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved." (Qur'an 6:70)
Wait a New York minute! After reading your bible quote regarding who is going to Hell because they called another a fool (Matthew 5:22), then you are saying that your serial killer god Jesus is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell as you speak because he called his creation fools too!Jesus stated the following by calling other's fools, to wit:
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." (Psalm 14:1)
“You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?†(Luke 11:40)
“O ‘fools’, and slow of hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken.†(Luke 24:25)
“You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?..." (Matt. 23:17, 27 )
I will await COGENT answers to the above biblical FACTS this time, okay? Again, if you
RUN AWAY as usual, can you at least tell us what brand of running shoes you wear?
Randy, when you come up against me while I am riding in a fully loaded Abrams M1 Tank, please don't bring your Boy Scout pocket knife to try and defend your Bronze and Iron Age bible, okay? At least give me a "sort of a challenge," next time, agreed? Thanks.
Randy, in closing, please, at least TRY to explain the Trinity Doctrine as I requested in reply #108 above? Okay? In front of the alumni, you're really falling by the wayside in an embarrassing way in this thread you've created, its sad to watch, really. You fail to realize that you're not in a Christian forum where your "birds of a feather" easily swallow the same ruse that you do without question, but you're in an ATHEIST FORUM where we bury you with your own bible, philosophy, and science. You seem to not be used to this fact as yet, sorry.:(
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 18, 2016, 04:42:40 PM
Did you read the article which I posted (twice) explaining that the Old Covenant with Israel does not apply to the church which is under the New Covenant? Both of your questions were dependent upon the Old Covenant still being in force.
This is not a "Catholic" thing. All Christians would say the same.
You're 0 for 2. Do you really want to take that third swing before slinking back to the dugout after striking out?
Randy,
The reasoning behind me continually posting for you to address ACTUAL BIBLICAL AXIOMS RELATIVE TO FOLLOWING THE 613 OLD TESTAMENT LAWS, is because I read the article that you wanted me too, but it turned out to be just another Catholic ruse where "the fox is guarding the chicken coop" to maintain the flock at all costs. I've never laughed so hard in my life!! LOL Thanks for providing this SNL skit that you've swallowed with ease.
The 613 Old Testament laws that you're to follow is explained in this thread below, AND THAT YOU CONTINUALLY RUN AWAY FROM FOR OBVIOUS REASONShttp://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10069.75 (Reply #86)
What is so sad is the fact that you don't even realize that what your Catholic church wrote about not following the OT anymore, in fact, shows that your primitive bible contradicts itself to my actual biblical axioms that you fail to address! What an irony, huh?
Seriously, the Catholic church must give classes on how to HIDE from those damn disturbing verses that make you Catholics fools, yes?
Randy does your particular bible look like the one below? Albeit, it does! LOL
(http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/Jefferson-Source-Bible-web.jpg)
"Published in 2006, this book has...wait for it...a whopping 13 reviews on Amazon. 25% of those reviews are 1-star.
Yeah, I read some of his biographical information online. Interesting.
I think modern scholarship has left Perez behind."
Ahh, the avoidance game again. Since you have a reading comprehension challenge, I'll post it again for you and for all to judge how you respond, if at all. In red to make it a fact in your world, although unnecessary in ours.
If it was only 10 people, WHY????
If your claim (and your cult's) is true and you have all the evidence and facts, why torture and kill people who doubt or disagree? And why defend such a vile organization???? Rational people present their evidence and let the facts speak for themselves. If you have to torture people to buy into your myths, then it's obvious there is no evidence, just brute force.
Now this is just one of many times your bs has been exposed on this forum. I understand that you have zero trust in your own belief, that's why you have to re-affirm your own superstition by trying to convince others. But NOBODY gets fooled here by you, only yourself. Too bad your skull is too thick to get it. Despite that, I really enjoy reading from you as part of a psychological study on how can so many be so stupid. Any Psychiatrist would have a hay day with you. So keep it coming, the more you write the more ridiculous it gets but also more interesting to study.
Quote from: reasonist on May 18, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
"Published in 2006, this book has...wait for it...a whopping 13 reviews on Amazon. 25% of those reviews are 1-star.
Yeah, I read some of his biographical information online. Interesting.
I think modern scholarship has left Perez behind."
Ahh, the avoidance game again. Since you have a reading comprehension challenge, I'll post it again for you and for all to judge how you respond, if at all. In red to make it a fact in your world, although unnecessary in ours.
If it was only 10 people, WHY????
If your claim (and your cult's) is true and you have all the evidence and facts, why torture and kill people who doubt or disagree? And why defend such a vile organization???? Rational people present their evidence and let the facts speak for themselves. If you have to torture people to buy into your myths, then it's obvious there is no evidence, just brute force.
Now this is just one of many times your bs has been exposed on this forum. I understand that you have zero trust in your own belief, that's why you have to re-affirm your own superstition by trying to convince others. But NOBODY gets fooled here by you, only yourself. Too bad your skull is too thick to get it. Despite that, I really enjoy reading from you as part of a psychological study on how can so many be so stupid. Any Psychiatrist would have a hay day with you. So keep it coming, the more you write the more ridiculous it gets but also more interesting to study.
Don't kid yourself. Although I have no clue who Perez is, I made some effort to find out. I wish you made similar efforts to look into information I present to you.
Perez is a respected scholar and won some award a year or two ago. Great. He's had a long and distinguished career.
Unfortunately, time has passed him by, and the anti-Catholic prejudice you're espousing when you quote him is simply no longer mainstream academic thought.
50 years ago maybe. You need to read some newer books.
It's always a little disturbing when you see someone come completely unglued in a public forum, isn't it?
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/sad_yes.gif)
To be fair to the Catholic Church ;-) ...
The Spanish people were xenophobic and racist. They would have oppressed and exprelled the Jews and Muslims, even if they were more Catholic than the Pope. Also it was lucrative business turning in your neighbor for a share of the proceeds. It was simply convenient that most of the Jews and Moors were not Catholic. Jews that converted 150 years before the Inquisition were never expelled. The early conversos have names ending in -ez ... like Hernandez and Cortez. It was recent converts and those who refused to convert, who were targeted. Going after the older conversos would have been too disruptive of society.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 18, 2016, 07:43:41 PM
It's always a little disturbing when you see someone come completely unglued in a public forum, isn't it?
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/sad_yes.gif)
The frustration with you is real ... are you happy about it?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 18, 2016, 07:40:27 PM
Don't kid yourself. Although I have no clue who Perez is, I made some effort to find out. I wish you made similar efforts to look into information I present to you.
Perez is a respected scholar and won some award a year or two ago. Great. He's had a long and distinguished career.
Unfortunately, time has passed him by, and the anti-Catholic prejudice you're espousing when you quote him is simply no longer mainstream academic thought.
50 years ago maybe. You need to read some newer books.
Aaaand again avoiding the issue presented. At least it's a consistent m.o. didn't expect anything less. If the apologist runs out of answers - deflect to a separate issue. Neither clever nor effective. Keep it coming.
The only disturbing thing in the thread is watching someone -who 'threatens' people with 'eternal fire'- calling people -who questions/refutes his fantasy over and over again- 'completely unglued' and speak of how 'disturbing' is that.
See, Randy that's why you and most believers should actually be defined as 'mentally disturbed' at this point and you, despite your 'educated pose' not a tiny bit of different from the illiterate batshit crazy believer who would execute every other group, if not for the modern law. If you want to try your chance we hear that ISIL is hiring, because doesn't matter how you cannot register it or not, you are of the same frame of mind.
You are imposing yourself and the bullshit you believe to a group of people and tell them they will burn in hell 'forever', because they do not agree with you. You are 'threatening' people with 'eternal torture', not even something as simple as death.
But then, personally I'm more curious about what could someone like you -who thinks 2000 years is an ancient period of time enough to determine 'humanity's fate'- be thinking when he is typing the word 'eternal'.
Quote from: reasonist on May 18, 2016, 08:57:34 PM
Aaaand again avoiding the issue presented. At least it's a consistent m.o. didn't expect anything less. If the apologist runs out of answers - deflect to a separate issue. Neither clever nor effective. Keep it coming.
I did not avoid anything. I considered your assertion, evaluated the source of your material, and concluded that Perez is not a scholar that I need to worry about.
You, however, have not taken the time to research whether modern scholarship has scaled the death toll of the Inquisition(s) and the Crusades waaaaaaay back because you don't want the Catholic Church to be innocent of the deaths of millions. You LIKE being able to spew false data at unsuspecting Catholics.
But I am not one of those.
NOW your allegations have been called into question. You can either pause and do some research into the recent scholarship FROM BOTH SIDES, or you can continue to tell yourself the same lies you have tried to tell here.
The latter is easier, of course.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 19, 2016, 10:49:28 AM
The only disturbing thing in the thread is watching someone -who 'threatens' people with 'eternal fire'- calling people -who questions/refutes his fantasy over and over again- 'completely unglued' and speak of how 'disturbing' is that.
See, Randy that's why you and most believers should actually be defined as 'mentally disturbed' at this point and you, despite your 'educated pose' not a tiny bit of different from the illetrate batshit crazy believer who wold execute every other group if not for the modern law. If you want to try your chance we hear ISIL is hiring, because doesn't matter how you cannot register it or not, you are of the same frame of mind.
You are imposing yourself and the bullshit you believe to a group of people and tell them they will burn in hell 'forever', because they do not agree with. You are 'threatening' people with 'eternal torture', not even something as simple as death.
But then, personally I'm more curious about what could someone like you -who thinks 2000 years is an ancient period of time enough to determine 'humanity's fate'- be thinking when he is typing the word 'eternal'.
I was speaking to one particular individual using a parody of his own posts.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 10:50:49 AM
I was speaking of one particular individual using parody of his own posts.
Really? And you don't think the rest of us is going to burn in 'eternal fire'?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 10:49:44 AM
I did not avoid anything. I considered your assertion, evaluated the source of your material, and concluded that Perez is not a scholar that I need to worry about.
You, however, have not taken the time to research whether modern scholarship has scaled the death toll of the Inquisition(s) and the Crusades waaaaaaay back because you don't want the Catholic Church to be innocent of the deaths of millions. You LIKE being able to spew false data at unsuspecting Catholics.
But I am not one of those.
NOW your allegations have been called into question. You can either pause and do some research into the recent scholarship FROM BOTH SIDES, or you can continue to tell yourself the same lies you have tried to tell here.
The latter is easier, of course.
Selective reading is not going to save you from embarrassment. It doesn't matter for this argument if 10 people got tortured and burned by the RCC or 10 million.
The PRINCIPLE is the same: If you have facts and evidence on your side, why torture and kill people who disagree? Too much to comprehend I guess.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 04:51:08 PM
So, when we are having fun together here in the forum...just kicking around funny stories, etc...we should try to keep in mind that the fact that the universe is infinite doesn't really affect a God who occupies no space at all.
We should be consistent even when it's all in funsies.
It is not a "fact" that the universe is infinite. In fact, current understanding says that it stretches for 46 billion light years in all directions from us.
Not even sure what you're saying there, but of course a universe wouldn't affect any being which created it. Obviously that universe wouldn't contain a creator being any more than an iPhone contains Chinese children.
I don't know why but this comes to mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2vy2ZTCAvs
always looking for an excuse to post these.
+++++++++++ ALL POINTS BULLETIN, WHERE IS RANDY? ++++++++++++
Has anyone seen Randy Carson run past their house within the last 24 hours?
I am getting worried because Randy has yet to address my posts 67, 86, 108, 116, and 117 within this thread
where he remains silent to Jesus condoning the murdering of kids that curse their parents, where he refuses to accept
Jesus’ own words that the Christian is to follow the Old Testament laws, where he won’t explain the Trinity Doctrine, where
he now shows why Jesus is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell, and where he admits that his bible contradicts itself.
I can't imagine why he remains silent upon these explicit biblical facts, can you?
If you see Randy, tell him to report back to his own “Stump the Apologist†thread of his own making where
thus far the only thing that he is doing is running away from those damn disturbing bible verses and narratives!
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 19, 2016, 10:52:28 AM
Really? And you don't think the rest of us is going to burn in 'eternal fire'?
I hope not.
God makes that call, and while He is perfectly just, He is also merciful. I would take careful note of the former without presuming on the latter, but that's just me.
The Catholic Church does not teach that any one, specific individual is in hell at this time.
We do proclaim that there are some specific individuals who are certainly in heaven now. We call them saints.
Quote from: reasonist on May 19, 2016, 10:54:46 AM
Selective reading is not going to save you from embarrassment. It doesn't matter for this argument if 10 people got tortured and burned by the RCC or 10 million. The PRINCIPLE is the same: If you have facts and evidence on your side, why torture and kill people who disagree? Too much to comprehend I guess.
Ah...progress!
So, we've moved from the unshakable calumny that the Catholic Church slaughtered millions to the
principle that the Church should not have to kill anyone for heresy since, presumably, it has the weight of truth on its side.
Okay. Good.
Now, let me ask you a question about this...If someone is convicted of being a serial killer, will they receive the death penalty in some countries and some states here in the US?
Quote from: widdershins on May 19, 2016, 11:00:15 AM
It is not a "fact" that the universe is infinite. In fact, current understanding says that it stretches for 46 billion light years in all directions from us.
I agree with you...maybe my grammar was poor. The "fact" I was positing should have been written this way: [if] the universe is infinite, this wouldn't really affect a God who occupies no space at all.
Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.
QuoteNot even sure what you're saying there, but of course a universe wouldn't affect any being which created it. Obviously that universe wouldn't contain a creator being any more than an iPhone contains Chinese children.
widdershins, that wins my "Post of the Day" award. Congratulations
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/praise/yeah_me.gif)
Now, if I can only get these intellectual midgets around here to admit that their precious science can't observe anything outside the material universe, maybe we can get somewhere...
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 19, 2016, 12:02:53 PM
+++++++++++ ALL POINTS BULLETIN, WHERE IS RANDY? ++++++++++++
Has anyone seen Randy Carson run past their house within the last 24 hours?
I am getting worried because Randy has yet to address my posts 67, 86, 108, 116, and 117 within this thread
where he remains silent to Jesus condoning the murdering of kids that curse their parents, where he refuses to accept
Jesus’ own words that the Christian is to follow the Old Testament laws, where he won’t explain the Trinity Doctrine, where
he now shows why Jesus is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell, and where he admits that his bible contradicts itself.
I can't imagine why he remains silent upon these explicit biblical facts, can you?
If you see Randy, tell him to report back to his own “Stump the Apologist†thread of his own making where
thus far the only thing that he is doing is running away from those damn disturbing bible verses and narratives!
At first, I thought you were joking, so I played along. Now, I realize that isn't the case.
You're on my ignore list now, so take your meds. Lie down in a quiet room. Place some soothing music.
Everything will be okay...
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:11:16 PM
I hope not.
God makes that call, and while He is perfectly just, He is also merciful. I would take careful note of the former without presuming on the latter, but that's just me.
The Catholic Church does not teach that any one, specific individual is in hell at this time.
We do proclaim that there are some specific individuals who are certainly in heaven now. We call them saints.
Randy,
There you are! Good to see you back in your own "Stump the Apologist" thread because I was worried that you were embarrassed to address the threads in question made by me and addressed to you as shown above in the
"All Points Bulletin, where is Randy" post above! Certainly you can't have a thread named as such, and then RUN from questions about your bible, can you? No, you can't.
Anyway, without further ado, and without more of your child like retorts, you being silent to biblical axioms, red herrings, and the rest of your modus operandi of
RUNNING AWAY from your bible and faith, show the alumni of
Atheist Forums why you can address my posts in question to you, ready?
BEGIN.UPDATE: Sorry, but Randy Carson has decided that to question his Bronze and Iron Age Catholic cult with me is just too stressful and embarrassing for him, therefore today at 12:02:53 PM, Randy has decided to throw in the towel of admitted defeat as shown in his is revealing reply #135 shown above.(http://artpetty.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/istock_000004254713xsmall.jpg)
RANDY CARSON'S CURRENT PICTURE OF HIM NOT BEING ABLE TO
APOLOGETICALLY EXPLAIN AWAY DISTURBING BIBLICAL DOCTRINE
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:27:15 PM
At first, I thought you were joking, so I played along. Now, I realize that isn't the case.
You're on my ignore list now, so take your meds. Lie down in a quiet room. Place some soothing music.
Everything will be okay...
Randy,
WHAT? Randy allegedly can't see my posts now, for obvious reasons, but to others, Randy threw in the towel of defeat once again! Poor ol' Randy Carson had to take this position to save what face he had left. He was so embarrassed over his Catholic faith that he couldn't remain intelligent looking when talking about it, therefore he had to jump the Catholic ship as it was sinking before his eyes.
I can't count the times that this situation has been shown to me before, as the pseudo-christian grasps for that last straw that isn't even there to begin with, and then comes up with a child like excuse not to discuss their Bronze and Iron Age faith any further. There will be many more like the inept Randy I am sure, but I have to admit, Randy Carson was one of the most inept and ignorant Christians that I have ever encountered. Therefore he will go down in my top ten ignorant pseudo-christian list.
ATHEIST: 100
CATHOLIC: 0
Whats new? Absolutely NOTHING!
Next Christian?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:23:29 PM
Now, if I can only get these intellectual midgets around here to admit that their precious science can't observe anything outside the material universe, maybe we can get somewhere...
Hey--listen to your wife--you really are that stupid!!! It is not just 'science' (as though that is a person and not a process---but we do know who we are dealing with here) that can't see the supernatural or the immaterial, it's that nobody has or can--it does not exist. But then, I guess you would be the kind of person who would try to set up experiments to find out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. As Forrest Gump said--Stupid is as stupid does--and it doesn't seem to wear out! At least not in Randy's case.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:23:29 PM
I agree with you...maybe my grammar was poor. The "fact" I was positing should have been written this way: [if] the universe is infinite, this wouldn't really affect a God who occupies no space at all.
Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.
widdershins, that wins my "Post of the Day" award. Congratulations
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/praise/yeah_me.gif)
Now, if I can only get these intellectual midgets around here to admit that their precious science can't observe anything outside the material universe, maybe we can get somewhere...
I'm pretty sure everyone here knows full well that it's "unlikely" (not impossible. We don't know that for sure) that we can observe anything outside of our universe. HOWEVER, God is not entirely outside of our universe by Christian beliefs. He takes a personal interest in our every football game, effecting the outcome according to who prayed the hardest. If his influence exists within our universe then to observe that influence would not require that we see outside our universe to detect him.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:15:54 PM
Ah...progress!
So, we've moved from the unshakable calumny that the Catholic Church slaughtered millions to the principle that the Church should not have to kill anyone for heresy since, presumably, it has the weight of truth on its side.
Okay. Good.
Now, let me ask you a question about this...If someone is convicted of being a serial killer, will they receive the death penalty in some countries and some states here in the US?
Too bad there is absolutely no progress on your part.
If you actually care to read, you will realize that I gave you two (2) different numbers on the extreme of both sides. Too much to read? K, then.First of all, I am against the death sentence. Penalty infers that you are suffering. When you are dead, no suffering. Secondly, according to your bronze age scribble, the punishment doesn't end with death! That's where the fun really begins! For eternity. Again, no appeal, no second chance (omni-benevolent anybody??) just torture for ETERNITY!
Now, let me ask you a question about this...If someone is convicted of being a serial killer, will they receive the death penalty in some countries and some states here in the US?Really? Boy you got serious mental issues dude. You compare a serial killer (like your god) to thought crime, to disagreement of a dogma? Both deserve death, eh? Get a good doctor, a prescription will help you.
Btw, do you worship and pray to these countries or states?
Is this idiot still at it? He must really be worried about going to Hell to spend so many futility credits on this kind of thread.
See Randy, there is nothing you can say or do, that will cause me to choose to believe in your god. I do believe in you, and because I believe in you, I know G-d.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 18, 2016, 07:40:27 PMYou need to read some newer books.
You. Said that. That's some funny shit right there.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:27:15 PM
At first, I thought you were joking, so I played along. Now, I realize that isn't the case.
You're on my ignore list now, so take your meds. Lie down in a quiet room. Place some soothing music.
Everything will be okay...
RANDY QUOTE: "At first, I thought you were joking, so I played along. Now, I realize that isn't the case. You're on my ignore list now, so take your meds. Lie down in a quiet room. Place some soothing music. Everything will be okay…"
DEFINITION: Randy's child like attempt to admit he was severely made the fool regarding his ignorance relative to his primitive Iron and Iron Age Catholic cult. Therefore, he had to come up with this lame excuse to save me from adding even more egg upon his face. At least Randy knows when to quit subsequent to an ATHEIST easily owning him! LOL
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4Khe4y89m_g/T9oZk41R4yI/AAAAAAAACl8/axrqOdl9MX0/s1600/egg-face-flickr.jpg)
"Sorry Mr. 21CIconoclast, you win! What I thought I knew about my Catholic cult, as you have shown me, I really didn't,
and I apologize for being embarrassed over my stupidity as you continued to add more egg upon my face every time I tried to answer your factual
biblical knowledge. But, you understand why I have to ignore you; because I am tired of being made the pseudo-christian fool, okay?
Thank you for your understanding"
Randy
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 19, 2016, 01:11:16 PM
I hope not.
God makes that call, and while He is perfectly just, He is also merciful. I would take careful note of the former without presuming on the latter, but that's just me.
The Catholic Church does not teach that any one, specific individual is in hell at this time.
We do proclaim that there are some specific individuals who are certainly in heaven now. We call them saints.
I hate to disappoint you, but the only burn I am getting is the sunburnt these days and as I am allergic to UV, now I have red tiny spots all over my arms and legs and though it makes my cellulite area on upper tighes more colourful ad less boring, unfortunately they bleed when I itch them hard absentmindedly.
Basically, according to your world, its god's fault. He gave me a thin, white skin and this allergy after 35. If that's his way of punishing me for being a heathen, it's lame. Seriously, it's just annoying. And spotty. :lol:
Quote from: Shiranu on May 14, 2016, 05:57:49 PM
Bah, I wanted to take this opportunity to ask something completely ridiculous and hilarious, to make a complete joke of your offer, but you know what? I'll play along.
I am somewhat indifferent on the scientific and "rational" proving or disproving of your god because I do not believe such a thing can be possible until we die. While the god of the Bible, as he is written, is an impossibility... I do not rule out that such a being could exist, however unlikely, in some form or another and the Bible was simply as close as some Middle Eastern tribes, and later European revisionists in the Holy Roman Empire, could come to understand him (or exploit his power for their own gain).
I prefer to concern myself with, instead of intellectual debate of god or what will happen to me when I die, with what will make me a better person now, in this world, and what will make my neighbours a better person. Not just in act, but in their heart... to genuinely care and love for one another and ourselves. I think anything that gives us this ability is inherently useful to some extent. So, given this... what does Christianity offer me that cannot be found in any other religion, or even philosophies that preach nearly the same thing sans dogma? What would make Christianity more valuable to me than drugs that open up my mind, that do not preach that I should hate my neighbour because he does not pray like me or is attracted to the same sex as me, amongst hundreds of other things the Bible tells us to hate our neighbour for? It seems the only way Christianity can offer me a better life is if I cherry pick 80%+ of the Christianity out of it, and at that point does it warrant being called Christianity? (Sorry, that is kinda 3 questions but they all have one single over-arching gist).
Delusional much. The bible doesn't say to hate any person whatsoever.
Your problem seems to be reading comprehension. If you've read it at all.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 15, 2016, 09:03:22 AM
If we have free will, then he can't punish us for our sins, either, but that doesn't stop him, does it?
Just because you have a choice to do or not do something doesn't mean there is no accountability for ones own actions.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 15, 2016, 10:13:38 AM
:agreenod:
Yep, the same story was written a few times over since 3,000 B.C.E. It is all there to see as FACT, clay tablets, stone carvings, papyrus etc. etc. but Yahweh found it necessary to steal the story and make it his own. Dumb and dumber...
and the sheep buy into it to comfort themselves. Awww, by all means, don't let FACTS get in the way of a good STORY.
History repeats itself.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 20, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
Just because you have a choice to do or not do something doesn't mean there is no accountability for ones own actions.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
You don't want accountability ... particularly the self righteous ... they will be the most punished. Also who makes G-d accountable?
Quote from: Baruch on May 20, 2016, 06:58:01 AM
You don't want accountability ... particularly the self righteous ... they will be the most punished. Also who makes G-d accountable?
Who doesn't want accountability? Please do not speak for me.
What does GOD need to be accountable for other than the opportunity for life to exist and thrive?
Do you wish to punish GOD for your own existence?
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 20, 2016, 06:28:24 AM
Delusional much. The bible doesn't say to hate any person whatsoever.
Your problem seems to be reading comprehension. If you've read it at all.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
That's rich coming from you! You and delusional fiction go hand-in-hand. Of course you don't find any hate in your fictional literature. Of course. How about this:
Exodus 22:18 in 19 English translations of the Bible:
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.
In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.
The Good News Bible uses the term "magic." This is also a poor selection because that term has been used to refer to:
bullet stage magic, sleight of hand, magic tricks.
bullet ceremonial magic used to harm other persons.
bullet ceremonial magic used to heal other persons.
The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.
Note--not only does this tell us to hate and then kill old women who were 'witches' but the verses are different one fictional literature to another. And this is only a short list of the differences. Potsie baby, this is called politics at work. And how to get rid of a source of competition--can't have wise old women running around healing people and shit--men priests are supposed to do that!!! When will these women ever learn to stay where the good lord wants them to stay??!!!
Actually some of the so called witches (who were suspected of thoughts of heresy!) were as young as 2 years!!!
Conservative estimates: 70,000 tortured and killed, other estimates as much as 2 million women and children.
Since this is the atheist forum, I'd like to post a little tribute to Sir Harry Kroto, who passed away last month. Sir Kroto was a chemist who discovered C60 (you can look it up) and won the Nobel price for chemistry. He was also a staunch atheist, like 92% of the members of the National Academy of Science and the Royal Academy of Science in Britain.
It would be prudent for apologists to read or listen what they have to say (our resident illusionist I am sure is smarter than Sir Kroto, so most likely won't bother) but I thought it might be interesting for my fellow atheists or anti theists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e51NKxlPX98
After watching, you can ask yourself who is more credible: a Nobel price winner or a garden variety apologist. I for one, go with the brains and the evidence.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 20, 2016, 06:28:24 AM
Delusional much. The bible doesn't say to hate any person whatsoever.
Your problem seems to be reading comprehension. If you've read it at all.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
popsthebuilder,
Unfortunately, the only one delusional, and ignorant as well, regarding your statement that the bible doesn't say to hate any person whatsoever, is YOU!
None other than the mythical bible Jesus stated, to wit: “If any man come to me,
and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.†(Luke 14:26)
Don't let Randy Carson see this post, because he'll poop in his pants once again seeing that he cannot apologetically spin this verse away as he couldn't do with the others.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 20, 2016, 01:38:43 PM
popsthebuilder,
Unfortunately, the only one delusional, and ignorant as well, regarding your statement that the bible doesn't say to hate any person whatsoever, is YOU!
None other than the mythical bible Jesus stated, to wit: “If any man come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.†(Luke 14:26)
Don't let Randy Carson see this post, because he'll poop in his pants once again seeing that he cannot apologetically spin this verse away as he couldn't do with the others.
Way to take things out of context.
That verse and chapter are speaking of those who seek to be disciples of Christ. To hate ones self and family and possessions in that sense is to simply not be attached to them more so than ones direction under GOD. It is a statement on asceticism, not literal hatred.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 20, 2016, 08:58:28 AM
That's rich coming from you! You and delusional fiction go hand-in-hand. Of course you don't find any hate in your fictional literature. Of course. How about this:
Exodus 22:18 in 19 English translations of the Bible:
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.
In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.
The Good News Bible uses the term "magic." This is also a poor selection because that term has been used to refer to:
bullet stage magic, sleight of hand, magic tricks.
bullet ceremonial magic used to harm other persons.
bullet ceremonial magic used to heal other persons.
The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.
Note--not only does this tell us to hate and then kill old women who were 'witches' but the verses are different one fictional literature to another. And this is only a short list of the differences. Potsie baby, this is called politics at work. And how to get rid of a source of competition--can't have wise old women running around healing people and shit--men priests are supposed to do that!!! When will these women ever learn to stay where the good lord wants them to stay??!!!
Oh wow! You're actually referencing the written law for the Jew that was repeatedly declared erroneous and misrepresented by the Christ.
Your ramblings, and opinion are moot in this case.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 20, 2016, 11:44:43 PM
Oh wow! You're actually referencing the written law for the Jew that was repeatedly declared erroneous and misrepresented by the Christ.
Your ramblings, and opinion are moot in this case.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Well, pops, I do see you are aware that there are two main section of the bible--old and new. But have you read them? Does not seem so, for Jesus tells you this:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
You are right, my ramblings and opinions don't matter (to you), but neither of these posts are mine, but of your fictional based bible. The fictional jesus said that. The OT is to followed and honored--every single letter. And I know that you don't do that. So, wear your proper title proudly, for this is exactly what you are --hypocrite!
Read the article
http://www.kyroot.com/
Quote(9) Ten Commandments
The Ten Commandments have been presented as the ultimate guide to human morality. But a close inspection reveals that only five have a meaningful impact- do not steal, do not perjure, do not kill, honor your parents, and don’t commit adultery. Just as revealing is what is not included:
No proscription of slavery
No proscription of child endangerment
No proscription of bigotry
No proscription of racism
No proscription of sexism
No proscription of classism
No proscription of blackmail or bribery
No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
No proscription of incest
No proscription of torture or terrorism
No proscription of rape
No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
No command to treat animals humanely
No command to take care of the earth’s environment
No command to help others in need
No command to settle disputes peacefully
No command to distribute the earth’s resources fairly
It should be obvious that an all-knowing , all-wise, all- discerning, supernatural god would have devised a much better set of rules for mankind, a set that would have placed humanity on a more peaceful, loving, and kind trajectory that the one we have experienced.
Additionally, most Christians do not realize that there are two versions of the 10 Commandments, one in Exodus 20 and the other in Exodus 34. The second version bears little resemblance to the first, but they were the only ones referred to as the 10 Commandments. Christians use the first version, though it appears by reading Exodus that they were superseded by the second version after Moses allegedly smashed the original tablets.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
That from the OT. Good Christians are still posting their version of the 10 Commandments everywhere they can, seems they still buy into it.
All the witch trials, trials for heresy and genocidal acts committed long since the NT was written were justified according to the Christians that carried them out. Current attacks against people in African countries- witches, transgenders, gays and anyone deemed a target is justified to the people carrying them out- OT and NT.
If the OT has been made irrelevant by the NT, why is it still part of the book? And last time I went to church less than a decade ago, the preachers were still quoting from the OT. And Evangelicals are still quoting from it and condemning these people every day in the media. Sounds like they still buy into it to me.
The OT is only quoted when deemed useful. Both OT/Torah and NT are cherry picked all the time. These books, including the Koran, are used and molded to one's personal desires and needs. That is the reason why this human made racket is so ridiculously inadequate as a guide for life. There are over 30,000 christian denominations alone. While they agree in principle, they differ greatly in detail. If the good books are divinely inspired, there should not be ANY discrepancy! But us human primates have the innate desire to be comforted, with false consolation and wish thinking. We also (Freud) have the intrinsic need to be subservient to a father figure, a strong hand that guides us. It's probably in part an abdication of personal responsibility. This is all well known and yet 90% of the world population still has those needs and acts upon them. Some are so enthralled that they are willing to die for the cause. We are evolving, slowly but surely, especially in the developed world. But will it be quick enough to avoid our own extinction? I guess we'll find out.
What I resent with anger is that us non believers are taken hostage by all of this. We want nothing to do with that superstitious nonsense. We want to be left alone and live in peace with our neighbors (without loving them?). But that seems to be impossible.
Quote from: stromboli on May 21, 2016, 04:30:30 AM
Read the article
http://www.kyroot.com/
That from the OT. Good Christians are still posting their version of the 10 Commandments everywhere they can, seems they still buy into it.
All the witch trials, trials for heresy and genocidal acts committed long since the NT was written were justified according to the Christians that carried them out. Current attacks against people in African countries- witches, transgenders, gays and anyone deemed a target is justified to the people carrying them out- OT and NT.
If the OT has been made irrelevant by the NT, why is it still part of the book? And last time I went to church less than a decade ago, the preachers were still quoting from the OT. And Evangelicals are still quoting from it and condemning these people every day in the media. Sounds like they still buy into it to me.
Stromboli,
The 10 commandments are Hebrew based in the Old Testament since Yahweh is a Jew god, period. Jesus is King of the Jews, period. Yahweh chose the Jews as his own people, period.
What the inept Christian forgets is the FACT that there’re 613 commandments that were given under the same god Yahweh to his people, and only after the later rewrites of using the same god for Christianity as for the Jews, did things get muddled up. In the process, Christians have been turning themselves into pretzels for millenniums to try in vain to align the two books in the bible.
You have seen poor Randy Carson trying to align the OT with the NT since his arrival, and thats why “apologetics†and “hermeneutics†were created, but at the expense of remaining intelligent looking in the aftermath when trying to explain away those damn disturbing passages and narratives.
613 Commandments that Christians are to follow even today.
http://therefinersfire.org/original_commandments1.htm
Yes, there’re two versions of the 10 commandments, and after Moses broke them in a rage, Yahweh was to write them in the same as the first set; The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.†(Exodus 34:1) BUT, as shown, this second set is completely different! Yahweh becomes a liar with yet another contradiction.
When writing myth in the Bronze and Iron Age, everyone wasn't on the same page because the books were separately conspired and then put together at later dates.
The ruse continues, as we've seen in Randy Carson grasping for that last straw that isn't there to begin with. Sad.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 12:18:19 AM
Well, pops, I do see you are aware that there are two main section of the bible--old and new. But have you read them? Does not seem so, for Jesus tells you this:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
You are right, my ramblings and opinions don't matter (to you), but neither of these posts are mine, but of your fictional based bible. The fictional jesus said that. The OT is to followed and honored--every single letter. And I know that you don't do that. So, wear your proper title proudly, for this is exactly what you are --hypocrite!
You are a fool.
All must abide by the law placed on their heart through the conscience, more specifically; the selfless conscience. Though mercy and grace abound from GOD for our sake; those who truly believe the Word of GOD will do all they possibly can to keep the law placed on their heart.
Try again friend.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 21, 2016, 10:42:58 AM
The OT is only quoted when deemed useful. Both OT/Torah and NT are cherry picked all the time. These books, including the Koran, are used and molded to one's personal desires and needs. That is the reason why this human made racket is so ridiculously inadequate as a guide for life. There are over 30,000 christian denominations alone. While they agree in principle, they differ greatly in detail. If the good books are divinely inspired, there should not be ANY discrepancy! But us human primates have the innate desire to be comforted, with false consolation and wish thinking. We also (Freud) have the intrinsic need to be subservient to a father figure, a strong hand that guides us. It's probably in part an abdication of personal responsibility. This is all well known and yet 90% of the world population still has those needs and acts upon them. Some are so enthralled that they are willing to die for the cause. We are evolving, slowly but surely, especially in the developed world. But will it be quick enough to avoid our own extinction? I guess we'll find out.
What I resent with anger is that us non believers are taken hostage by all of this. We want nothing to do with that superstitious nonsense. We want to be left alone and live in peace with our neighbors (without loving them?). But that seems to be impossible.
Foolishness.
Though divinely inspired, men are naturally manipulative, greedy, and proud. Though the books you mention and many more refer to the same things in much similar ways, for the same reasons; they are still going to be slightly different based on culture, and setting(time).
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 21, 2016, 12:31:50 PM
Foolishness.
Though divinely inspired, men are naturally manipulative, greedy, and proud. Though the books you mention and many more refer to the same things in much similar ways, for the same reasons; they are still going to be slightly different based on culture, and setting(time).
If the scriptures are divinely inspired, men's greed and pride has nothing to do with it. Divinely inspired means infallible. Since the books are full of contradictions (30,000 in the NT, over 200,000 in the Torah) it speaks for itself as to divine inspiration. If human shortcomings did contribute to the discrepancies, the divine inspiration is out the window and it's a human inspired literature. Can't have it both ways.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 21, 2016, 12:21:07 PM
Stromboli,
The 10 commandments are Hebrew based in the Old Testament since Yahweh is a Jew god, period. Jesus is King of the Jews, period. Yahweh chose the Jews as his own people, period.
What the inept Christian forgets is the FACT that there’re 613 commandments that were given under the same god Yahweh to his people, and only after the later rewrites of using the same god for Christianity as for the Jews, did things get muddled up. In the process, Christians have been turning themselves into pretzels for millenniums to try in vain to align the two books in the bible.
You have seen poor Randy Carson trying to align the OT with the NT since his arrival, and thats why “apologetics†and “hermeneutics†were created, but at the expense of remaining intelligent looking in the aftermath when trying to explain away those damn disturbing passages and narratives.
613 Commandments that Christians are to follow even today.
http://therefinersfire.org/original_commandments1.htm
Yes, there’re two versions of the 10 commandments, and after Moses broke them in a rage, Yahweh was to write them in the same as the first set; The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.†(Exodus 34:1) BUT, as shown, this second set is completely different! Yahweh becomes a liar with yet another contradiction.
When writing myth in the Bronze and Iron Age, everyone wasn't on the same page because the books were separately conspired and then put together at later dates.
The ruse continues, as we've seen in Randy Carson grasping for that last straw that isn't there to begin with. Sad.
Good post. But there three versions of the 10 Commandments. I'm pulling the verses out of my poor old brain, but I believe the 3rd set is in Exodus 32--or something. :)
The core commandments ... the N Jewish version, the S Jewish version and the Deuteronomist version. Basically Jewish constitutional law circa King Ahab, King Hezekia and King Josiah.
Here are the other 10 Commandments: Exodus 34:14-26
The Ten Commandments
1. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the feast of the Passover be left until the morning.
9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
I'd like to see those listed in front of some Alabama courthouse.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 03:18:09 PM
Here are the other 10 Commandments: Exodus 34:14-26
The Ten Commandments
1. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the feast of the Passover be left until the morning.
9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
I'd like to see those listed in front of some Alabama courthouse.
:histerical: :kiddingme:
Quote from: reasonist on May 21, 2016, 12:50:28 PM
If the scriptures are divinely inspired, men's greed and pride has nothing to do with it. Divinely inspired means infallible. Since the books are full of contradictions (30,000 in the NT, over 200,000 in the Torah) it speaks for itself as to divine inspiration. If human shortcomings did contribute to the discrepancies, the divine inspiration is out the window and it's a human inspired literature. Can't have it both ways.
THIS! Every word of it. Men wrote all of those books and they were either divinely inspired and completely infallible or they're not. And if they're not, then they're not worth the paper they're written on.
Quote from: reasonist on May 21, 2016, 12:50:28 PM
If the scriptures are divinely inspired, men's greed and pride has nothing to do with it. Divinely inspired means infallible. Since the books are full of contradictions (30,000 in the NT, over 200,000 in the Torah) it speaks for itself as to divine inspiration. If human shortcomings did contribute to the discrepancies, the divine inspiration is out the window and it's a human inspired literature. Can't have it both ways.
Divinely inspired or inspired by GOD in no way makes the people that wrote the books utterly infallible. Conflating much.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Johan on May 21, 2016, 04:40:54 PM
THIS! Every word of it. Men wrote all of those books and they were either divinely inspired and completely infallible or they're not. And if they're not, then they're not worth the paper they're written on.
Just because the will of GOD is without change; that doesn't mean that any have known it in full.
And actually; if you discount some of the ot; most other ancient writings and not so old ones are all pretty much the same. Even Hinduism at its core. These teachings span time, culture, and societies yet are essentially the same.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
... they are essentially the same, because they spring from the common psychology of a single species.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 21, 2016, 05:42:31 PMDivinely inspired or inspired by GOD in no way makes the people that wrote the books utterly infallible.
Behold the most divinely inspired, perfect book ever:
(http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/26/13/3-Harry-Potter-and-the-Philosophers-Stone.jpg)
Sure, it has imperfections, but that's because J.K. Rowling is fallible. But except for its imperfections, it's perfect.
This is basically the argument you guys are putting forth when you say in one breath that the bible is divinely inspired and infallible and in the other breath, say all the bad stuff in it is because the writers were fallible. You can't have it both ways.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 21, 2016, 06:57:14 PM
Behold the most divinely inspired, perfect book ever:
(http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/26/13/3-Harry-Potter-and-the-Philosophers-Stone.jpg)
Sure, it has imperfections, but that's because J.K. Rowling is fallible. But except for its imperfections, it's perfect.
This is basically the argument you guys are putting forth when you say in one breath that the bible is divinely inspired and infallible and in the other breath, say all the bad stuff in it is because the writers were fallible. You can't have it both ways.
I never said the entirety of the bible was infallible.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 21, 2016, 05:52:09 PM
And actually; if you discount some of the ot; most other ancient writings and not so old ones are all pretty much the same.
The same thing can be said about the Hardy Boys books. All pretty much the same. All pretty much pure fiction.
Quote from: reasonist on May 19, 2016, 03:51:27 PM
Too bad there is absolutely no progress on your part. If you actually care to read, you will realize that I gave you two (2) different numbers on the extreme of both sides. Too much to read? K, then.
First of all, I am against the death sentence. Penalty infers that you are suffering. When you are dead, no suffering. Secondly, according to your bronze age scribble, the punishment doesn't end with death! That's where the fun really begins! For eternity. Again, no appeal, no second chance (omni-benevolent anybody??) just torture for ETERNITY!
Now, let me ask you a question about this...If someone is convicted of being a serial killer, will they receive the death penalty in some countries and some states here in the US?
Really? Boy you got serious mental issues dude. You compare a serial killer (like your god) to thought crime, to disagreement of a dogma? Both deserve death, eh? Get a good doctor, a prescription will help you.
Btw, do you worship and pray to these countries or states?
Now, I will explain why I asked the question which you did not dare answer. Bear with me for a moment, and answer some hypothetical questions.
If someone is put to death for killing another person
physically, how much more severe should the penalty be for killing someone
spiritually by teaching heresy?
IOW, if I murder one person, I deserve to be punished for that death, that loss of temporal life, right?
But what if I preach false doctrine and lead hundreds, thousands or even millions into hell for all eternity? Should I be punished for their loss of eternal life?
Which is worse?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 21, 2016, 09:22:06 PM
Now, I will explain why I asked the question which you did not dare answer. Bear with me for a moment, and answer some hypothetical questions.
If someone is put to death for killing another person physically, how much more severe should the penalty be for killing someone spiritually by teaching heresy?
IOW, if I murder one person, I deserve to be punished for that death, that loss of temporal life, right?
But what if I preach false doctrine and lead hundreds, thousands or even millions into hell for all eternity? Should I be punished for their loss of eternal life?
Which is worse?
You keep trying to cram your assumptions down our throats. Nobody here thinks as you do--do not accept the premise of your fictional god or jesus. Heresy??? That is like putting somebody to death for not believing in the Tooth Fairy. What a load of crap--and dangerous crap at that!
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 12:18:19 AM
Well, pops, I do see you are aware that there are two main section of the bible--old and new. But have you read them? Does not seem so, for Jesus tells you this:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
And what happened at the cross, Mike? Just before Jesus died, He said, "It is accomplished."
That's kind of inconvenient for you though, isn't it? Because for some bizarro reason, you want to hold Christians accountable for the OT when you don't actually believe in it yourself...but you sure as hell don't want to miss an opportunity to erroneously accuse us of hypocrisy.
Doing this over and over and over simply highlights your own ignorance, however.
I mean, it's not OUR fault you don't understand that the New Covenant abrogated the Old.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 09:25:26 PM
You keep trying to cram your assumptions down our throats. Nobody here thinks as you do--do not accept the premise of your fictional god or jesus. Heresy??? That is like putting somebody to death for not believing in the Tooth Fairy. What a load of crap--and dangerous crap at that!
Is there any chance you might actually answer the questions I posted? You accuse me of ignoring questions (so I started a thread just to silence that accusation), but here you are doing the very thing you accuse me of.
And Christian apologists are the hypocritical ones???
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 21, 2016, 09:29:48 PM
Is there any chance you might actually answer the questions I posted? You accuse me of ignoring questions (so I started a thread just to silence that accusation), but here you are doing the very thing you accuse me of.
And Christian apologists are the hypocritical ones???
Yep--yep you are the hypocritical ones--always have been and I don't see you changing a bit.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 09:40:14 PM
Yep--yep you are the hypocritical ones--always have been and I don't see you changing a bit.
If someone is put to death for killing another person physically, how much more severe should the penalty be for killing someone spiritually by teaching heresy?
IOW, if I murder one person, I deserve to be punished for that death, that loss of temporal life, right?
But what if I preach false doctrine and lead hundreds, thousands or even millions into hell for all eternity? Should I be punished for their loss of eternal life?
Which is worse?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 21, 2016, 09:28:09 PM
And what happened at the cross, Mike? Just before Jesus died, He said, "It is accomplished."
Which cross, Randy? There were thousands of them. Your fictional jesus is said to have uttered several things--depends upon which novel you subscribe to.
[/quote]
That's kind of inconvenient for you though, isn't it? Because for some bizarro reason, you want to hold Christians accountable for the OT when you don't actually believe in it yourself...but you sure as hell don't want to miss an opportunity to erroneously accuse us of hypocrisy.
[/quote]
My reason is bizarro? Look in the mirror, my friend and you will see a guy with bizarro ideas just popping out of his head. Your fictional jesus is the one who said that the OT is still in full force--not me; I don't give a shit if you follow it or not. It is your fictional book that says that.
[/quote]
Doing this over and over and over simply highlights your own ignorance, however.
[/quote]
No shit Sherlock. That's all you do is highlight your ignorance just about every time you post. You think if you repeat a lie a few hundred times it becomes the truth. Okay, little guy, keep on keepen on.
[/quote]
I mean, it's not OUR fault you don't understand that the New Covenant abrogated the Old.
[/quote]
And it is not my fault if you can't even read your own fictional material. Apparently it is too much for your little pea brain to untangle all the contradictions contained in the collection of essays you call a bible. So you just make shit up and keep repeating over and over and over until you believe it is true. And you can then have faith that it is so. Goody for you.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 09:54:32 PM
Which cross, Randy? There were thousands of them. Your fictional jesus is said to have uttered several things--depends upon which novel you subscribe to.
You make atheism look bad, Mike. You really do. Arguing against the existence of God is understandable, but doing it so badly...
“
The denial that Christ was crucified is like the denial of the Holocaust. For some it’s simply too horrific to affirm. For others it’s an elaborate conspiracy to coerce religious sympathy.
But the deniers live in a historical dreamworld."
(Bart Ehrman, interview with Reginald V. Finley Sr., “Who Changed The New Testament and Whyâ€, The Infidel Guy Show, 2008. Available at : http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1264542-did-jesus-exist-disciple-buddha-america.html#ixzz2pvePXTT1)
:sbye2:
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 21, 2016, 10:01:54 PM
You make atheism look bad, Mike. You really do. Arguing against the existence of God is understandable, but doing it so badly...
“The denial that Christ was crucified is like the denial of the Holocaust. For some it’s simply too horrific to affirm. For others it’s an elaborate conspiracy to coerce religious sympathy. But the deniers live in a historical dreamworld."
(Bart Ehrman, interview with Reginald V. Finley Sr., “Who Changed The New Testament and Whyâ€, The Infidel Guy Show, 2008. Available at : http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1264542-did-jesus-exist-disciple-buddha-america.html#ixzz2pvePXTT1)
:sbye2:
Sure thing Repeatable Randy. Keep on repeating the fiction and one day it will be true for you. Keep at it--again and again and again.
Again, I do not identify as an atheist, but people like Randy and other ignorant hypocrites sure make me want to.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 22, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Again, I do not identify as an atheist, but people like Randy and other ignorant hypocrites sure make me want to.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Blackleaf.
I'm also puzzled: what is it that I am "ignorant" about, exactly? (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
There are lots of things I know little or nothing of...but what in the context of our discussions specifically did you have in mind?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 21, 2016, 09:29:48 PM
Is there any chance you might actually answer the questions I posted? You accuse me of ignoring questions (so I started a thread just to silence that accusation), but here you are doing the very thing you accuse me of.
And Christian apologists are the hypocritical ones???
How is one with a different view or opinion automatically a hypocrite?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 22, 2016, 11:14:38 AM
How is one with a different view or opinion automatically a hypocrite?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Almost all one billion Christians don't practice what they preach. They are acting, pretending. The ancient word for an actor is "hypocrite". Nothing wrong with being an actor. Even if you are the unknown person playing the role of Randy or myself. All the world is a stage. Break a leg ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 22, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Again, I do not identify as an atheist, but people like Randy and other ignorant hypocrites sure make me want to.
It's been my personal finding that most atheists are actually deists of sorts.
As such, I can see how observable hypocrisy of "Christians" can pave the way for contention between the two.
This too, eventually will change by the will of the One Creator GOD, for the sake of existence.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 21, 2016, 07:50:12 PM
I never said the entirety of the bible was infallible.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Exactly ... we all have our opinions about the good parts and the bad parts. I love the first Potter book, but I didn't like the other ones nearly as much.
Quote from: Baruch on May 22, 2016, 11:19:46 AM
Almost all one billion Christians don't practice what they preach. They are acting, pretending. The ancient word for an actor is "hypocrite". Nothing wrong with being an actor. Even if you are the unknown person playing the role of Randy or myself. All the world is a stage. Break a leg ;-)
I don't doubt that many are hypocrites. But not all. Slowly the direction of man, by the will of GOD is being realized.
Abiding by what is known through the selfless conscience by the grace of GOD(the single creative force behind all existence) isn't acting or being fake or hypocritical, quite the opposite actually.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Baruch on May 22, 2016, 11:21:51 AM
Exactly ... we all have our opinions about the good parts and the bad parts. I love the first Potter book, but I didn't like the other ones nearly as much.
Cute.
Do you think the author of the Harry Potter books would willingly die over what is written in his or her books?
Do you think those novels connect with the author and reader on an inner most level?
What do you find so fantastical about scripture? If you can't swallow the miracles written of in a literal sense then perhaps you should take them differently. The dead rose. The blind saw.
I was blind at one point. Not literally though.
I was basically dead for years, yet was revived. Again not literally, but might as well had been.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
All people die. Some people die for stupid things. If confronted as an ancient Jew, by an ancient Roman ... I might dissimulate and live, or spit in his face and die. Why is that important to you? You are Roman, not Jewish, so you have nothing to fear from your own kind, do you?
I absolutely agree about allegorical interpretation. But people don't die for allegory, they die because of their mistaken literalism. Jewish zealots didn't die for literary theory ... they literally thought, per Hannukah etc ... that G-d would drop from the skies and smite the Romans.
There are some who aren't acting? Who are these demigods, are they like Heracles? Old Jewish stories have something similar ... the lamedvavnicks ... a small group of holy Jewish men, who can never admit who they are, even to themselves, and for whose sake, their virtue being so great, G-d doesn't destroy the world. Gotta be at least ten of them, maybe more ... to make a minyan, like Abraham was dealing with G-d regarding the Sodomites. James the Just was Yaakov HaTzaddik ... a Tzaddik is the ancient version of such holy men.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 21, 2016, 09:54:32 PM
Which cross, Randy? There were thousands of them. Your fictional jesus is said to have uttered several things--depends upon which novel you subscribe to.
That's kind of inconvenient for you though, isn't it? Because for some bizarro reason, you want to hold Christians accountable for the OT when you don't actually believe in it yourself...but you sure as hell don't want to miss an opportunity to erroneously accuse us of hypocrisy.
My reason is bizarro? Look in the mirror, my friend and you will see a guy with bizarro ideas just popping out of his head. Your fictional jesus is the one who said that the OT is still in full force--not me; I don't give a shit if you follow it or not. It is your fictional book that says that.
Doing this over and over and over simply highlights your own ignorance, however.
No shit Sherlock. That's all you do is highlight your ignorance just about every time you post. You think if you repeat a lie a few hundred times it becomes the truth. Okay, little guy, keep on keepen on.
I mean, it's not OUR fault you don't understand that the New Covenant abrogated the Old.
And it is not my fault if you can't even read your own fictional material. Apparently it is too much for your little pea brain to untangle all the contradictions contained in the collection of essays you call a bible. So you just make shit up and keep repeating over and over and over until you believe it is true. And you can then have faith that it is so. Goody for you.
MikeCI,,
Hey, Randy Dandy Carson has me on ignore, for obvious reasons of me showing him to be an outright fool relative to his primitive faith, so has this pseudo-christian even "tried" to answer my posts listed below?
+++++++++++ ALL POINTS BULLETIN, WHERE IS RANDY? ++++++++++++
Has anyone seen Randy Carson run past their house within the last 24 hours?
I am getting worried because Randy has yet to address my posts 67, 86, 108, 116, and 117 within this thread
where he remains silent to Jesus condoning the murdering of kids that curse their parents, where he refuses to accept
Jesus’ own words that the Christian is to follow the Old Testament laws, where he won’t explain the Trinity Doctrine, where
he now shows why Jesus is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell, and where he admits that his bible contradicts itself.
I can't imagine why he remains silent upon these explicit biblical facts, can you?Mike, is Randy Carson still hiding from his JUDEO-Christian bible in disgrace to what it actually says, instead of what he wants it to say?
Quote from: Baruch on May 22, 2016, 11:19:46 AM
Almost all one billion Christians don't practice what they preach. They are acting, pretending. The ancient word for an actor is "hypocrite". Nothing wrong with being an actor. Even if you are the unknown person playing the role of Randy or myself. All the world is a stage. Break a leg ;-)
Wait, so my hobby makes me a hypocrite? But i hate hypocrites! That can't...
Whoa... Hypocriteseption
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 22, 2016, 01:05:19 PM
MikeCI,,
Hey, Randy Dandy Carson has me on ignore, for obvious reasons of me showing him to be an outright fool relative to his primitive faith, so has this pseudo-christian even "tried" to answer my posts listed below?
+++++++++++ ALL POINTS BULLETIN, WHERE IS RANDY? ++++++++++++
Has anyone seen Randy Carson run past their house within the last 24 hours?
I am getting worried because Randy has yet to address my posts 67, 86, 108, 116, and 117 within this thread
where he remains silent to Jesus condoning the murdering of kids that curse their parents, where he refuses to accept
Jesus’ own words that the Christian is to follow the Old Testament laws, where he won’t explain the Trinity Doctrine, where
he now shows why Jesus is burning in the sulfur lakes of Hell, and where he admits that his bible contradicts itself.
I can't imagine why he remains silent upon these explicit biblical facts, can you?
Mike, is Randy Carson still hiding from his JUDEO-Christian bible in disgrace to what it actually says, instead of what he wants it to say?
I guess he understands (or makes the judgement--christians love, love, love to do that! Makes them feel all warm and tingly inside) that your soul is too polluted (with the truth) to save. So, as all good christians do, besides passing judgments, is to ignore the FACTS, willfully so, and continue down their blind path all in good faith.
Randy can never be honest about the Bible, because his church is about the Church, not about the Bible. Two different things, even for other Christians, even for Jews and Muslims. We put our institutions ahead of everything else. The Bible doesn't authorize the synagogue or the church as we know them.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 22, 2016, 11:20:32 AM
It's been my personal finding that most atheists are actually deists of sorts.
I'd love to hear the twisted logic that leads you to even entertain this notion much less actually believe it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 22, 2016, 02:56:45 PM
I guess he understands (or makes the judgement--christians love, love, love to do that! Makes them feel all warm and tingly inside) that your soul is too polluted (with the truth) to save. So, as all good christians do, besides passing judgments, is to ignore the FACTS, willfully so, and continue down their blind path all in good faith.
MikeCI,
Well, you have to feel sorry for poor ol' Randy because he knows he is headed for the sulfur lakes of Hell upon his demise as shown below for his outright disparaging acts against the Jesus character. This is why he is acting in the way he is, because he has nothing to lose anymore. :(
1. Randy called JESUS A MORAL MONSTER!: This was done by him because Jesus being god of the Old Testament, he blasphemed the spirit of Yahweh as part of the Triune, which in turn, he committed the Unpardonable Sin as described in Matthew 12:31-32! http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10036.15 (Reply #18)
2. Randy CALLED JESUS A LIAR!: He did this in Matthew 5:18 and 2 Peter 3:10 by insidiously trying in vain to rewrite the bible by not recognizing that heaven and earth have to pass away first before the Old Testament Laws are no longer viable as Jesus states in the verses in question! http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10069.75 (Reply #77)
3. Randy PRECLUDED THAT JESUS IS BURING IN HELL!: This is when he said that by me calling him a fool, I will burn in hell, but using his biblical passage, I then showed the ignorant Randy that he therefore says that Jesus is therefore burning in Hell! http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=10069.105 (Reply #116)Get this, subsequent to Randy doing the blatant despicable acts against his Jesus above, he actually thinks he is still going to heaven! Number 1 above took him out of contention to heaven by itself! LOLThis is how IGNORANT Randy Carson is, by not following this passage shown below, where he isn't supposed to be in this forum in the first place!;
“I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.†(Romans 16:17)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 21, 2016, 05:52:09 PM
And actually; if you discount some of the ot; most other ancient writings and not so old ones are all pretty much the same.
Yeah we know that. That's kinda why we are atheist, we can recognize bullshit.
You refuse to accept what you just admitted. It's all the same bullshit. The only difference is you think your bullshit doesn't stink and theirs does, while they think the same about yours.
Welcome to real life, where most the world thinks you are a moron.
Quote from: Baruch on May 22, 2016, 11:58:31 AM
All people die. Some people die for stupid things. If confronted as an ancient Jew, by an ancient Roman ... I might dissimulate and live, or spit in his face and die. Why is that important to you? You are Roman, not Jewish, so you have nothing to fear from your own kind, do you?
I absolutely agree about allegorical interpretation. But people don't die for allegory, they die because of their mistaken literalism. Jewish zealots didn't die for literary theory ... they literally thought, per Hannukah etc ... that G-d would drop from the skies and smite the Romans.
There are some who aren't acting? Who are these demigods, are they like Heracles? Old Jewish stories have something similar ... the lamedvavnicks ... a small group of holy Jewish men, who can never admit who they are, even to themselves, and for whose sake, their virtue being so great, G-d doesn't destroy the world. Gotta be at least ten of them, maybe more ... to make a minyan, like Abraham was dealing with G-d regarding the Sodomites. James the Just was Yaakov HaTzaddik ... a Tzaddik is the ancient version of such holy men.
I fear nothing but the effects of my actions or the lack there of.
I consider myself both Jew and gentile. There is no division there. Either one is faithful to GOD or not.
You kinda lost me with the literal/ metaphorical thing, and why people die. Yes all die, but those who willingly die for what they at least partially know, to me speaks for the credence or seriousness of the topic at hand. I wouldn't willingly die over Harry Potter. I would gladly die standing for what I personally know to be of truth though.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Johan on May 22, 2016, 05:36:49 PM
I'd love to hear the twisted logic that leads you to even entertain this notion much less actually believe it.
Word of mouth from proclaimed atheists. Not here necessarily.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: aitm on May 22, 2016, 05:52:55 PM
Yeah we know that. That's kinda why we are atheist, we can recognize bullshit.
You refuse to accept what you just admitted. It's all the same bullshit. The only difference is you think your bullshit doesn't stink and theirs does, while they think the same about yours.
Welcome to real life, where most the world thinks you are a moron.
What do I refuse to accept.
Perhaps now is a good time to remind people that I was an adamant atheist for well over 20 years.
Please list what I consider wrong, and how, or where I stated I was right and others are wrong.
It isn't bullshit. If it was; when faced with certain death, the provocateurs of said bullshit would eagerly admit their jest that they might live.
Thanks, peace.
Oh yeah; I really couldn't care any less if anyone thinks I am a moron or below them in any way as I consider all life to be of equal value.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Word of mouth from proclaimed atheists. Not here necessarily.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
AKA "God's Not Dead."
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 23, 2016, 09:12:59 AM
AKA "God's Not Dead."
? Are you talking about a movie. Because I'm not.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Sky Daddy A vs Sky Daddy B. Grow up in Utah worship the Mormon version, in India the Hindu version(s). The "one true god" is whatever deity you buy into. choose one. There are thousands to choose from. And each one is just as true (or untrue) as the next.
As a secular humanist I'll choose what I can see as relevant and progressive for humanity. Secularism advances the human condition, not that of an unproven god. Money on a collection plate too often pays for an ornate building and the lifestyle of the proprietor. Paid for a few of those over the years. God A though Z supposedly is beneficial to humanity, but I've never personally seen how they actually do that, other than occasionally send money to a home for unwed mothers; most support missions in foreign countries trying to convince people to put money on other collection plates. Doesn't strike me as purposeful or useful.
Maybe if we stop throwing money at an imaginary Sky Daddy and spend the money to actually aid humans directly, we might accomplish something. A buck given to a homeless man goes further in real time than a buck donated to pay for a building you visit for 2 hours once a week. No thanks. Keep your religion.
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 09:52:05 AM
Sky Daddy A vs Sky Daddy B. Grow up in Utah worship the Mormon version, in India the Hindu version(s). The "one true god" is whatever deity you buy into. choose one. There are thousands to choose from. And each one is just as true (or untrue) as the next.
As a secular humanist I'll choose what I can see as relevant and progressive for humanity. Secularism advances the human condition, not that of an unproven god. Money on a collection plate too often pays for an ornate building and the lifestyle of the proprietor. Paid for a few of those over the years. God A though Z supposedly is beneficial to humanity, but I've never personally seen how they actually do that, other than occasionally send money to a home for unwed mothers; most support missions in foreign countries trying to convince people to put money on other collection plates. Doesn't strike me as purposeful or useful.
Maybe if we stop throwing money at an imaginary Sky Daddy and spend the money to actually aid humans directly, we might accomplish something. A buck given to a homeless man goes further in real time than a buck donated to pay for a building you visit for 2 hours once a week. No thanks. Keep your religion.
Faith in GOD has little to do with much organized religion and less to do with money.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 09:58:28 AM
Faith in GOD has little to do with much organized religion and less to do with money.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I suggest you go find a reliable water fountain and worship that. You get an immediate return and it doesn't cost anything. Also less stressful on your knees, unless its the kiddie fountain at Target.
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 09:52:05 AM
Sky Daddy A vs Sky Daddy B. Grow up in Utah worship the Mormon version, in India the Hindu version(s). The "one true god" is whatever deity you buy into. choose one. There are thousands to choose from. And each one is just as true (or untrue) as the next.
That's a
non sequitur. Your stated assumption is that all religions are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Christianity is based upon a single historical event. If that event occurred, then Christianity is true. If not, there is no need to waste your time on it. Therefore, thoughtful examination of the evidence for the resurrection is of paramount importance.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 23, 2016, 10:20:04 AM
That's a non sequitur. Your stated assumption is that all religions are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Christianity is based upon a single historical event. If that event occurred, then Christianity is true. If not, there is no need to waste your time on it. Therefore, thoughtful examination of the evidence for the resurrection is of paramount importance.
wow if you understand that much it's a mystery as to why you still believe. Many of us here have been telling you there was no historical event that happened.
There is no evidence that jesus existed or any of the bible bulshit is real. None! Historians will tell you this if you would wake up and read none christian propaganda once in a while.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 09:58:28 AM
Faith in GOD has little to do with much organized religion and less to do with money.
Peace
Bullshit!!! Of the highest order.
Quote from: doorknob on May 23, 2016, 10:31:33 AM
wow if you understand that much it's a mystery as to why you still believe. Many of us here have been telling you there was no historical event that happened.
Yes, you have. And you have no evidence to support your view - just your opinion.
QuoteThere is no evidence that jesus existed or any of the bible bulshit is real. None! Historians will tell you this if you would wake up and read none christian propaganda once in a while.
Is that what atheists who have Ph.D.'s in New Testament studies say? (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/no.gif)
Bart Ehrman is an atheist and a legitimate scholar. He noted:
“Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine. There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds â€" thousands? â€" of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.†(Quoted in an article published by the Huffington Post)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 23, 2016, 10:20:04 AM
That's a non sequitur. Your stated assumption is that all religions are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Christianity is based upon a single historical event. If that event occurred, then Christianity is true. If not, there is no need to waste your time on it. Therefore, thoughtful examination of the evidence for the resurrection is of paramount importance.
No I did not at any point say they are all the same. I said they are all non existent. And you are exactly right. I made a very thorough examination of the evidence and I'm a secular humanist. Cog dis, Randy. Everything you post is in defense of a belief you have set in your mind and nothing will deter you from it. I weighed the evidence and came to my conclusion. You hunt down evidence to support yours. Exact same methodology used by Creationists.
Evolution is a theory based on discovery and supporting evidence. You didn't discover Jesus from objective, non biblical evidence, you looked for apologetic "evidence" to bolster yours. The Creationist method versus the scientific.
I said this previously- without the bible or the creation of the catholic church, would you in the course of studying history encounter Jesus and his ministry? The answer is a resounding no. Your belief stems from a specific source and a specific set of beliefs, not from independent discovery.
And Richard Carrier with a phd from Cambridge says Jesus is a myth and had contributed a good bit of evidence to support his claim. You keep quoting Ehrman after yourself saying he was a dubious source. Bona fide historians with all their resources can't absolutely confirm the existence of Jesus, unlike many historic figures of that era.
Also like I said previously- the advent of Jesus and his ascension is or should have been the single biggest event in human history. Carmen used to say he "split time in half"! except it was the Gregorian calendar, not Jesus. And it all happened below the radar historically. Sad.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 10:42:29 AM
Bullshit!!! Of the highest order.
You declare my statement as false, yet you can't justifiably do so as you are an atheist. In your clouded logic you conflate organized religion, manipulation of the masses, and discrimination with those utterly striving to be faithful to GOD. There is a huge difference. Just read what is taught in all core texts of the faithful, then compare it to the fear/ hate mongering, greed, and hypocrisy of those who proclaim Faith with their mouths all while acting contrary to what they claim to have faith in.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
You declare my statement as false, yet you can't justifiably do so as you are an atheist. In your clouded logic you conflate organized religion, manipulation of the masses, and discrimination with those utterly striving to be faithful to GOD. There is a huge difference. Just read what is taught in all core texts of the faithful, then compare it to the fear/ hate mongering, greed, and hypocrisy of those who proclaim Faith with their mouths all while acting contrary to what they claim to have faith in.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Here is a list of gods and goddesses currently being worshiped. they all have equal amounts of supporting evidence.
https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 10:59:33 AM
Here is a list of gods and goddesses currently being worshiped. they all have equal amounts of supporting evidence.
https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them
Did you have a point?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
You declare my statement as false, yet you can't justifiably do so as you are an atheist. In your clouded logic you conflate organized religion, manipulation of the masses, and discrimination with those utterly striving to be faithful to GOD. There is a huge difference. Just read what is taught in all core texts of the faithful, then compare it to the fear/ hate mongering, greed, and hypocrisy of those who proclaim Faith with their mouths all while acting contrary to what they claim to have faith in.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Yes, I have read the 'core' text of many of the mainline religions. They are all fiction. Yet they all do have one 'core' thought. In fact, it is as close to universal as anything can be. It is the Golden Rule; there are many ways of stating it, but it is close to something like this--do to others as you would want them to do to you. It is interesting to me that this sentiment shows up in all the religions I am familiar with--everything from the most complicated to the least organized. And note that god does not have a place in that sentiment. Just us lowly humans treating each other with care, understanding and kindness--just as we would like others to treat us. Simple. And I don't have to pay a priest to tell me this.
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 10:59:33 AM
Here is a list of gods and goddesses currently being worshiped. they all have equal amounts of supporting evidence.
https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them
Have you personally investigated them all yourself?
If not, are you relying on the testimony of someone else in order to arrive at this conclusion?
And if you are relying on that testimony, why is it reasonable to trust what someone else is telling you about these religions all resting on "equal amounts of supporting evidence" but you don't find it reasonable to trust what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have told you about Jesus?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 11:35:26 AM
Yes, I have read the 'core' text of many of the mainline religions. They are all fiction. Yet they all do have one 'core' thought. In fact, it is as close to universal as anything can be. It is the Golden Rule; there are many ways of stating it, but it is close to something like this--do to others as you would want them to do to you. It is interesting to me that this sentiment shows up in all the religions I am familiar with--everything from the most complicated to the least organized. And note that god does not have a place in that sentiment. Just us lowly humans treating each other with care, understanding and kindness--just as we would like others to treat us. Simple. And I don't have to pay a priest to tell me this.
The golden rule is stated in one fashion or another in most texts I have read as well. Doing unto others as you would have have them do to you is pretty common sense for most, but not what I am speaking of exactly. I am speaking more or asceticism, selflessness, altruism, and the conscience.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Juno's cunt! They are multiplying...
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 12:11:49 PM
The golden rule is stated in one fashion or another in most texts I have read as well. Doing unto others as you would have have them do to you is pretty common sense for most, but not what I am speaking of exactly. I am speaking more or asceticism, selflessness, altruism, and the conscience.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Having a well developed conscience is key. Without that ... the positive or negative golden rule founders on sadism and masochism.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 23, 2016, 10:20:04 AM
That's a non sequitur. Your stated assumption is that all religions are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Christianity is based upon a single historical event. If that event occurred, then Christianity is true. If not, there is no need to waste your time on it. Therefore, thoughtful examination of the evidence for the resurrection is of paramount importance.
This is the reason why Christianity is weak. I don't want any culturally important meme to be weak, but it is. Based on one historical event, something all Abrahamic religions share ... is weak. All of these gods are dead gods if they aren't alive now, in the lives of their followers. G-d being alive in you or me ... that is evidence, not some dry bones.
Quote from: Baruch on May 23, 2016, 12:57:58 PM
Having a well developed conscience is key. Without that ... the positive or negative golden rule founders on sadism and masochism.
I couldn't quite get what you were saying. Could you word it differently?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 12:11:49 PM
The golden rule is stated in one fashion or another in most texts I have read as well. Doing unto others as you would have have them do to you is pretty common sense for most, but not what I am speaking of exactly. I am speaking more or asceticism, selflessness, altruism, and the conscience.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
The Golden Rule speaks to all those concerns.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 08:28:36 AM
Perhaps now is a good time to remind people that I was an adamant atheist for well over 20 years.
Now would be a good time to remind you that most of us were christians for most of our lives. So? Point? Frankly I have no reason to believe you were ever an atheist. Your posts show the simple minded thinking that christians have always had, at least former atheists have better arguments.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 02:07:17 PM
The Golden Rule speaks to all those concerns.
Not really. Could you elaborate?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: aitm on May 23, 2016, 02:24:48 PM
Now would be a good time to remind you that most of us were christians for most of our lives. So? Point? Frankly I have no reason to believe you were ever an atheist. Your posts show the simple minded thinking that christians have always had, at least former atheists have better arguments.
Your arrogance is flaw. Some like to stereotype others. I try not to. Simple minded? Really. Give an example of my observable simple mindedness or stop speaking out of your ass please.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 23, 2016, 10:45:40 AM
Yes, you have. And you have no evidence to support your view - just your opinion.
Is that what atheists who have Ph.D.'s in New Testament studies say? (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/no.gif)
Bart Ehrman is an atheist and a legitimate scholar. He noted:
“Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine. There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds â€" thousands? â€" of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.†(Quoted in an article published by the Huffington Post)
Did we read the same paragraph because he pretty much just insulted the Abraham religions and says nothing about any verifiable evidence supporting the historical events of the bible. Your reading comprehension sucks. I'm done with you now.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 02:48:29 PM
Your arrogance is flaw.
You speak of arrogance! What a fucking clown you are !
Quote from: doorknob on May 23, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Did we read the same paragraph because he pretty much just insulted the Abraham religions and says nothing about any verifiable evidence supporting the historical events of the bible.
Is that what he said? There are five sentences in the paragraph. In which does he insult the Abrahamic religions?
Sentence #1“Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine.
Sentence #2There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds â€" thousands? â€" of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study.
[Note Erhman acknowledging a whopping TWO credentialed scholars in that sentence.]Sentence #3But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world.
Sentence #4And it is no wonder why.
Sentence #5These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.â€
[Note the obvious contempt Ehrman has for mythicists in that last sentence.]QuoteYour reading comprehension sucks.
Whose comprehension sucks?
QuoteI'm done with you now.
TRANSLATION: I can't think of a good response.
[/quote]
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Word of mouth from proclaimed atheists. Not here necessarily.
And pray tell, exactly how many of the estimated 855 million confirmed atheists in the world did you survey in order to determine that 'most' are whatever the fuck you're trying to claim they are?
Quote from: Johan on May 23, 2016, 07:14:11 PM
And pray tell, exactly how many of the estimated 855 million confirmed atheists in the world did you survey in order to determine that 'most' are whatever the fuck you're trying to claim they are?
Confirmed? How?
They went to confirmation class?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 06:58:14 PM
You speak of arrogance! What a fucking clown you are !
Why does mentioning arrogance make me a clown. Am I arrogant? And if you think I am could you support it with anything whatsoever?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 01:36:57 PM
I couldn't quite get what you were saying. Could you word it differently?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Basing ethics on love ... will only work if the love is pure (aka meets the requirements of a well developed conscience). Otherwise harm to others is justified in the larger picture of our corruption. We meant well, but the object of our love died from our delusive attachments.
Quote from: Johan on May 23, 2016, 07:14:11 PM
And pray tell, exactly how many of the estimated 855 million confirmed atheists in the world did you survey in order to determine that 'most' are whatever the fuck you're trying to claim they are?
Are you really that confused? Of the atheists I have spoken with, a notable amount of them seem( by their own account) to be deistic in ways, believing in some higher power than themselves.
No reason to take such offence. Anyone with a brain can deduce, from simple observation of their surroundings, that many things are of much greater power than themselves. It's quite apparent to most that they didn't create themselves, and that the stipulations of their existence where at least at one point dependent upon other factors.
To put it simply; do you think you would live today without the Sun, or water?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
The theism they struggle against, how they define themselves in opposition to ... is based on Abrahamic stereotypes. Not that many Abrahamic folks don't fit the stereotype .. Randy for example. A more enlightened theism, isn't something they have had to struggle with, just the common variety.
Quote from: Baruch on May 23, 2016, 07:36:07 PM
Basing ethics on love ... will only work if the love is pure (aka meets the requirements of a well developed conscience). Otherwise harm to others is justified in the larger picture of our corruption. We meant well, but the object of our love died from our delusive attachments.
I quite like that. Did you write it yourself?
Thank you for your attempted clarification. And yes, only true love of an indiscriminate nature towards all life will prove profitable to existence for all life.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 07:39:41 PM
I quite like that. Did you write it yourself?
Thank you for your attempted clarification. And yes, only true love of an indiscriminate nature towards all life will prove profitable to existence for all life.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Ii claim no authorship ... though many of my words come from my fingers, not from copy/paste. A Chinese would describe my better efforts as coming straight from my Qi ... but an Abrahamic would describe it differently ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 07:39:41 PM
I quite like that. Did you write it yourself?
Thank you for your attempted clarification. And yes, only true love of an indiscriminate nature towards all life will prove profitable to existence for all life.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
True love of an indiscriminate nature? there is nothing indiscriminate about religious love.
Indiscriminate:
done at random or without careful judgment.
"the indiscriminate killing of civilians"
synonyms: nonselective, unselective, undiscriminating, uncritical, aimless, hit-or-miss, haphazard, random, arbitrary, unsystematic, undirected; More
(of a person) not using or exercising discrimination.
"she was indiscriminate with her affections"
religion is very specific about discrimination. Ask any gay or transgender that was discriminated against. The 60's we went through the Bible belt preachers screaming hate against blacks.
ISIS is discriminating based on women not wearing Burkas, killing gays and beheading atheists and infidels. Discrimination?
Don't believe in Jesus? See you in hell. Sounds kind of discriminatory. Religion is judgmental through and through. Used to stone you if you skipped the sabbath. The bible is full of judgment and discrimination.
I don't know what you believe, but the last indiscriminate love I can personally remember happened on Haight Ashbury in San Francisco and it involved quantities of LSD.
There is nothing indiscriminate or random about the 10 Commandments. you either don't know what you are talking about or believe some kind of mixed bag of personal choice religion; choose one belief from column A, one from column B.
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 08:47:53 PM
True love of an indiscriminate nature? there is nothing indiscriminate about religious love.
done at random or without careful judgment.
"the indiscriminate killing of civilians"
synonyms: nonselective, unselective, undiscriminating, uncritical, aimless, hit-or-miss, haphazard, random, arbitrary, unsystematic, undirected; More
(of a person) not using or exercising discrimination.
"she was indiscriminate with her affections"
religion is very specific about discrimination. Ask any gay or transgender that was discriminated against. The 60's we went through the Bible belt preachers screaming hate against blacks.
ISIS is discriminating based on women not wearing Burkas, killing gays and beheading atheists and infidels. Discrimination?
Don't believe in Jesus? See you in hell. Sounds kind of discriminatory. Religion is judgmental through and through. Used to stone you if you skipped the sabbath. The bible is full of judgment and discrimination.
I don't know what you believe, but the last indiscriminate love I can personally remember happened on Haight Ashbury and it involved quantities of LSD.
Again, conflating the erroneous acts of man claiming to be faithful with the direction of man by GOD seems to be the problem.
Is it really so hard of a concept to grasp? The previous and even current acts of man are not equal to the intent for man by GOD.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 08:51:54 PM
Again, conflating the erroneous acts of man claiming to be faithful with the direction of man by GOD seems to be the problem.
Is it really so hard of a concept to grasp? The previous and even current acts of man are not equal to the intent for man by GOD.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Pretty sure that following specific rules set down by a specific god in a specific holy book doesn't "conflate" to erroneous acts. You just make this shit up as you go?
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 08:57:35 PM
Pretty sure that following specific rules set down by a specific god in a specific holy book doesn't "conflate" to erroneous acts. You just make this shit up as you go?
Pretty sure most (including myself) haven't followed specific orders of a specific GOD rightly, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. And by specific god I am referring to the One Creator GOD that all known and unknown existence was formed by in some fashion.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 08:59:33 PM
Pretty sure most (including myself) haven't followed specific orders of a specific GOD rightly, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Forget this. I've had less unintelligible conversations with drunks.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 02:48:29 PM
Simple minded? Really. Give an example of my observable simple mindedness
You believe in the babble, the history of which has been proven to be complete and utter bullshit. You spend years looking and searching to find "experts" to agree with you when 5 year olds can disprove the entire babble in the first chapter. You refuse the obvious because it is …obvious and therefore not the work of a god….forgetting that the work of a "god" would really be far more of a read than your babble.
In short, you're a moron. You have to, must, are forced to post information from other sources because you cannot defend the babble in even simple common sense. You have to reach out to PHD's, like minded scientists, fellow believers to help you in your arguments because you cannot defend the babble by its own merit.
I do not need any of that. I can prove the babble is bullshit simply by reading it. And you have to bring in "experts" to explain it to you so you can "defend " it. HA! Surely that is the work of an almighty god…make the babble understandable only to those who are paid to explain it to those who are paying them to explain it……moron.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 07:36:59 PM
No reason to take such offence. Anyone with a brain can deduce, from simple observation of their surroundings, that many things are of much greater power than themselves.
So let me get this straight. If I want to prove that I have a brain, I have to declare that my surroundings are the result of a higher power. And therefore if I happen to believe there is no such thing as a higher power, I must clearly have no brain is that it? Oh and I'm not supposed to be offended by your assertion of this. Well then yeah, there are no words in the English language that can effectively express just how much I'd like you to go fuck yourself so instead I'll just tell you to have a nice day. Have a nice day.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 07:30:44 PM
Why does mentioning arrogance make me a clown. Am I arrogant? And if you think I am could you support it with anything whatsoever?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Well, let's see. You come onto an atheist forum and proceed to tell us how wrong headed we are. And you expect us to simply agree with you and welcome you with open arms????? That is arrogant, young man---arrogant indeed!
Quote from: stromboli on May 23, 2016, 08:47:53 PM
True love of an indiscriminate nature? there is nothing indiscriminate about religious love.
Indiscriminate:
done at random or without careful judgment.
"the indiscriminate killing of civilians"
synonyms: nonselective, unselective, undiscriminating, uncritical, aimless, hit-or-miss, haphazard, random, arbitrary, unsystematic, undirected; More
(of a person) not using or exercising discrimination.
"she was indiscriminate with her affections"
religion is very specific about discrimination. Ask any gay or transgender that was discriminated against. The 60's we went through the Bible belt preachers screaming hate against blacks.
ISIS is discriminating based on women not wearing Burkas, killing gays and beheading atheists and infidels. Discrimination?
Don't believe in Jesus? See you in hell. Sounds kind of discriminatory. Religion is judgmental through and through. Used to stone you if you skipped the sabbath. The bible is full of judgment and discrimination.
I don't know what you believe, but the last indiscriminate love I can personally remember happened on Haight Ashbury in San Francisco and it involved quantities of LSD.
There is nothing indiscriminate or random about the 10 Commandments. you either don't know what you are talking about or believe some kind of mixed bag of personal choice religion; choose one belief from column A, one from column B.
Let me attempt to make it more clear for you;
Though man can claim to act out of religious beliefs, their acts are not aligned with the teachings of peaceable core scriptures of any "religion".
The love of GOD is indiscriminate. Pretty sure the word is to love thy neighbor as thy love thou self. That's pretty impartial. This isn't achieved with any level of greed or want for self whatsoever, as far as I know. Yet, looking back throughout history we see only greed, fear, and pride as motives for atrocities. Can one justifiably state that these same atrocious acts had been and are still being carried out by those proclaiming to be the faithful of GOD? Surely.
My point is, again, that regardless of what they(those corrupt, blasphemous souls) proclaim; they are not on the narrow path in any way. All one needs to do to see this is study any core text of the faithful to GOD.
Now, when I say GOD please understand that it is only a descriptor in that it is not specific past being the singular creative force causal to all existence.
Lemme guess; word salad, right?
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
aitm,
Be more specific, or rather, perhaps I should be.
You say I believe the bible. Which I do. You say the history of the bible is proven to be wrong, whatever that is supposed to mean. So give examples.
I believe the teachings of the Christ. I find much wisdom I the words of the bible. I find that every thing in it can be learned from in one way or another. I believe it to be the inspired Word of GOD, or perhaps inspired by the Word of GOD.
Anyway, first, I couldn't help but notice how you said first that the history of said book has been proven wrong, but towards the end of your passive aggressive emotionally charged rant you said you need no proof...
Anyway, moving on, thanks for attempting some level of substance in your post even if it was complete and utter conjecture/assumption.
Really though, you must have e confused for someone else, or that's the worst case of stereotyping I have ever witnessed first hand. Why would I look for "experts" to agree with me? And what field would their expertise be in? How would that benefit me, and why would I need that?
What do you mean disprove? Are you talking about young earth creationism? Because I don't see it that way. What obvious thing do I refuse? All these grandua assumptions with no clarification whatsoever. Wait... You said I refuse the obvious because it is obvious...I'm almost speechless... I'm sorry but that's just a dumb ass statement that makes no sense. Are you assuming I ignore nature or science? Are one of those characters that try to seperate nature from GOD? You should understand that from my perspective nature is of GOD, not contrary to GOD. What kind of asshat would claim otherwise? Rhetorical.
You also seem to assume that I stick to the bible alone. Never once have I stated such and thought I made it clear repeatedly that I read and have read multiple scriptures. Just more observable assumption based in biased ignorance on your part I suppose.
Try asking a question every once and again, it might help you to stop putting your foot in your mouth.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Johan on May 23, 2016, 09:39:19 PM
So let me get this straight. If I want to prove that I have a brain, I have to declare that my surroundings are the result of a higher power. And therefore if I happen to believe there is no such thing as a higher power, I must clearly have no brain is that it? Oh and I'm not supposed to be offended by your assertion of this. Well then yeah, there are no words in the English language that can effectively express just how much I'd like you to go fuck yourself so instead I'll just tell you to have a nice day. Have a nice day.
The truth hurts. Learn from it.
If you truly are so vain that you cannot accept the fact that you are not the most powerful thing in existence then I truly feel for you. I wish you the very best and hope that eventually the vail of pride will be lifted from your eyes. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you or anyone for that matter is without a brain or of inadequate intellect.
Pride and greed do skew perception though.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Another person who talks in riddles yet says nothing at all.
Also I've been questioning a lot of peoples reading comprehension lately.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 10:39:14 PM
Well, let's see. You come onto an atheist forum and proceed to tell us how wrong headed we are. And you expect us to simply agree with you and welcome you with open arms????? That is arrogant, young man---arrogant indeed!
I expect nothing of the sort sir. I never said I did. I understand I am not exactly welcome here if I speak my mind. I get that it is offensive at times, and try not to be. If people who say they know, understand, and use the golden rule, would act as such, then perhaps that would help as well.
Duelly noted though; thank everyone for reminding me that I am not supposed to be contentious or combative. I did accuse some of being foolish. That didn't help anyone, and isn't profitable for real conversation.
Please note that I am not saying you are wrong headed, but that you are basing your opinion on GOD and Faith on the acts of man.
If most here where at some point "Christian" then perhaps they have read or heard about not respecting man. Not being lead astray by false prophets. Being wary of the whore of Babylon.
So yes; you are right in some fashion for your contempt towards the hypocrite. But that shouldn't be the basis for your disbelief or hatred in GOD. Read scriptures without bias and with openness. Investigate your own motives. Search yourself. Relinquishing greed and pride go a long way towards catching that self deception. Listen to your conscience. Pay attention to your intuition and instinct.
Have a little hope, sincerity, and receptiveness.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: doorknob on May 23, 2016, 11:28:25 PM
Another person who talks in riddles yet says nothing at all.
Also I've been questioning a lot of peoples reading comprehension lately.
I don't mean to talk in riddles and can attempt to clarify anything upon request. To be more specific one has to be asked more specific questions.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 10:39:14 PM
Well, let's see. You come onto an atheist forum and proceed to tell us how wrong headed we are. And you expect us to simply agree with you and welcome you with open arms????? That is arrogant, young man---arrogant indeed!
I don't feel too young.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 11:33:37 PM
Please note that I am not saying you are wrong headed, but that you are basing your opinion on GOD and Faith on the acts of man.
Have a little hope, sincerity, and receptiveness.
Peace
How do you know what I base my thoughts about god come from? You have no idea of my past nor how much thought and research I've done (and continue doing) on this subject. A large part of your arrogance is that you make these blanket statements as though they are fact and you know them for a fact. You don't. You assume we are atheist for the most flimsy of reasons; you don't bother to find out about our real thoughts are or why we have them. And you assume that your thoughts are superior than ours. That is arrogance.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 11:33:37 PM
Have a little hope, sincerity, and receptiveness.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
For your info, since you did not bother to ask, I have much more than a little hope. I have hope that we, as a species, are being better and better to each other as the years, decades and centuries wear on. I am not a pessimist. I am totally sincere in my thoughts, reasons and reasoning. And I as receptive as the next guy, maybe more so; you give me some good reasons (faith and belief is not a good basis for changing ones mind about anything.) and I will change my mind in a heart beat!
Faith in selfless Unity???????????? Faith requires not proof that anything is correct. If an act produces a good outcome, then repeat it--grow it. If an act produces a bad outcome, stop doing it, learn from it and try a different approach the next time. Faith and belief has nothing to do with reality. For good? Well, that is a subjective concept, is it not???
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 11:40:13 PM
How do you know what I base my thoughts about god come from? You have no idea of my past nor how much thought and research I've done (and continue doing) on this subject. A large part of your arrogance is that you make these blanket statements as though they are fact and you know them for a fact. You don't. You assume we are atheist for the most flimsy of reasons; you don't bother to find out about our real thoughts are or why we have them. And you assume that your thoughts are superior than ours. That is arrogance.
No I based that statement on the fact that someone cited atrocious acts of man in the past and conflated them with the rightly guided by GOD. If you don't base the credence of GOD on the actions of man then great. Based on your statements that I have read that didn't seem to be the case. I am in no way confined to that assumption or illusion though, and commend you on your research. I am not arrogant, and Based my statements on previous statement of others in this thread. Perhaps I mistook someone else's post for yours. It happens.
So now I'm curious. What have you been studying as of late? Is it more scholarly in origin or philosophical? Is from a more skeptical perspective or opened?
Humbly,
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 11:47:26 PM
For your info, since you did not bother to ask, I have much more than a little hope. I have hope that we, as a species, are being better and better to each other as the years, decades and centuries wear on. I am not a pessimist. I am totally sincere in my thoughts, reasons and reasoning. And I as receptive as the next guy, maybe more so; you give me some good reasons (faith and belief is not a good basis for changing ones mind about anything.) and I will change my mind in a heart beat!
Faith in selfless Unity???????????? Faith requires not proof that anything is correct. If an act produces a good outcome, then repeat it--grow it. If an act produces a bad outcome, stop doing it, learn from it and try a different approach the next time. Faith and belief has nothing to do with reality. For good? Well, that is a subjective concept, is it not???
Sounds sorta nihilistic.
If you didn't have faith in anything then you would have no motivation to exist. I seem to be attempting to step clear of the personal attacks while you seem to want to continue in them. What is your motive? What right mindedness is that? How is it subjectively good to you, and if it is not then why do you continue to do it making yourself seem hypocritical? Did you not say that if a thing is bad that you stop doing it? Is your continuance in such actually beneficial to you or me, or are you being manipulative to yourself?
Note; this is not a personal attack or a display of arrogance or pride, but simple inquiry.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I have faith in science. I have faith in art. I have faith in what is good in human beings.
I do not have faith in a pile of mouldering old parchments, scratched upon by a pack of semi-literate ignoramuses who had no idea that there was an India or a China or an America to be considered.
I am not interested in their outdated ravings.
If any one book should ever have been burned, it is the Bible. No other book is responsible for so much misery, warfare, bloodshed.
Its pages are not even fit for toilet paper, let alone to be holding the human species captive at this point.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 03:23:25 AM
I have faith in science. I have faith in art. I have faith in what is good in human beings.
I do not have faith in a pile of mouldering old parchments, scratched upon by a pack of semi-literate ignoramuses who had no idea that there was an India or a China or an America to be considered.
I am not interested in their outdated ravings.
If any one book should ever have been burned, it is the Bible. No other book is responsible for so much misery, warfare, bloodshed.
Its pages are not even fit for toilet paper, let alone to be holding the human species captive at this point.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Do you actually consider ancient people to be lesser than you? What makes you think the writers of the new testament were ignorant of geography? And is that really a good reason to consider all they wrote to be insignificant. Just curious.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Progressives think that even last week is obsolete. Regressives want to bring back the Roman Empire. i see them as both, as deluded.
On the other hand, I can sympathize with not wanting to base one's life on old books, wanting one's life based on what one can see and hear, here and now ... even though old books are also here and now.
In my case my view of the wretchedness of humanity, isn't specific to any historical period. Today looks a lot like the "Last Days of Pompeii" to me.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2016, 11:40:13 PM
How do you know what I base my thoughts about god come from? You have no idea of my past nor how much thought and research I've done (and continue doing) on this subject. A large part of your arrogance is that you make these blanket statements as though they are fact and you know them for a fact. You don't. You assume we are atheist for the most flimsy of reasons; you don't bother to find out about our real thoughts are or why we have them. And you assume that your thoughts are superior than ours. That is arrogance.
Sorry, I know I already replied to this post, but I overlooked the part where you claimed that I think I am superior to you or anyone else. That couldn't be further from the truth.
I regard myself as 0, with no intrinsic worth whatsoever. Believe me when I say I give all more credit than I give myself. I am noone. No thing, but what I have been given by Grace and mercy. Though I might say someone is being irrational or foolish, you will never hear or see me say that I am of any higher intellect or worth or value than any other. I regard all other life as more precious than my own.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 07:16:36 AM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Do you actually consider ancient people to be lesser than you? What makes you think the writers of the new testament were ignorant of geography? And is that really a good reason to consider all they wrote to be insignificant. Just curious.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
A God w/half a brain would have chosen a civilized people like the Greeks or the Chinese, not goat herders on the side of a crag in the middle of nowhere. I value the work of Aristotle - not the drivel of the
Bible ... Aristotle got things wrong, yes, but he got them wrong for the right reasons, not because he was insane, as were most of the so-called "prophets". Aristotle made human mistakes, due to his lack of technology - even so, it's amazing how much he did get right. He at least knew about India and China.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 07:43:03 AM
A God w/half a brain would have chosen a civilized people like the Greeks or the Chinese, not goat herders on the side of a crag in the middle of nowhere. I value the work of Aristotle - not the drivel of the Bible ... Aristotle got things wrong, yes, but he got them wrong for the right reasons, not because he was insane, as were most of the so-called "prophets". Aristotle made human mistakes, due to his lack of technology - even so, it's amazing how much he did get right. He at least knew about India and China.
That answered nothing.
Do you think all ancients where stupid if they had Faith in GOD in any fashion? What of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Druze, Gnostics, and so forth?
Do you realize that though most Christians will deny it; Christ traveled to India prior to his ministries?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 07:43:03 AM
A God w/half a brain would have chosen a civilized people like the Greeks or the Chinese, not goat herders on the side of a crag in the middle of nowhere. I value the work of Aristotle - not the drivel of the Bible ... Aristotle got things wrong, yes, but he got them wrong for the right reasons, not because he was insane, as were most of the so-called "prophets". Aristotle made human mistakes, due to his lack of technology - even so, it's amazing how much he did get right. He at least knew about India and China.
Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that
the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
God has written his law on the hearts of all men and made Himself known through creation so that men are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualitiesâ€"his eternal power and divine natureâ€"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 07:48:17 AM
That answered nothing.
Do you think all ancients where stupid if they had Faith in GOD in any fashion? What of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Druze, Gnostics, and so forth?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Oh, but it did - you accused me of disregarding the ancients just for being ancient. That is untrue. Aristotle deserves respect. The writers of the
Bible do not. They did nothing to further humanity but held it back. They gave humanity nothing of value but burdened it w/mental illness for millenniums to come. Better that their nonsense had been lost to history.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 07:53:13 AM
The writers of the Bible do not. They did nothing to further humanity but held it back.
This is just your opinion.
Other people see the Church as being the cause of the advance of Western Civilization. (Specific examples could be offered, of course.)
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 07:53:13 AM
Oh, but it did - you accused me of disregarding the ancients just for being ancient. That is untrue. Aristotle deserves respect. The writers of the Bible do not. They did nothing to further humanity but held it back. They gave humanity nothing of value but burdened it w/mental illness for millenniums to come. Better that their nonsense had been lost to history.
You claim a book held back the advancement of civilization. I claim it was people.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 07:58:32 AM
You claim a book held back the advancement of civilization. I claim it was people.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Sure - people inspired by that book!
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Sure - people inspired by that book!
Not directly, or rightly. Most, like today still, have it narrated to them by an appointed man, in bits and pieces as that man so chooses for his own motives, namely greed or want for personal attainment, and power over others, all of which are expressly spoken against in the bible, even the canon bible which was compiled to the liking of the whore of Babylon, formerly known as the ancient Roman Catholic church.
I would understand where you were coming from if the atrocities were a direct result of each perpetrator personally reading the texts, but that just isn't the case. I could relate to what you are saying if those same people, when compared with the teachings of scriptures seemed to be aligned rightly with the actual teachings and example of Christ, but again that just isn't the case as far as I can tell.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 08:27:50 AM
Not directly, or rightly. Most, like today still, have it narrated to them by an appointed man, in bits and pieces as that man so chooses for his own motives, namely greed or want for personal attainment, and power over others, all of which are expressly spoken against in the bible, even the canon bible which was compiled to the liking of the whore of Babylon, formerly known as the ancient Roman Catholic church.
I would understand where you were coming from if the atrocities were a direct result of each perpetrator personally reading the texts, but that just isn't the case. I could relate to what you are saying if those same people, when compared with the teachings of scriptures seemed to be aligned rightly with the actual teachings and example of Christ, but again that just isn't the case as far as I can tell.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
That's a half-assed dodge.
Protestants are supposed to read the
Bible for themselves. Catholics can at least blame the Church for their interpretation of the
Bible. But Protestants have no such excuse. Catholics get a missal to read. Protestants get a
Bible. Read the fucking thing.
If anyone read it, he'd see what a pile of manure it is, so count yourself lucky that so few actually do read it. It's so loaded w/mistakes and contradictions that nobody w/a thimble full of brains can sit still for it - yet it stays in print. Why? Nobody really reads it but for the already brain dead.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 08:34:18 AM
That's a half-assed dodge.
Protestants are supposed to read the Bible for themselves. Catholics can at least blame the Church for their interpretation of the Bible. But Protestants have no such excuse. Catholics get a missal to read. Protestants get a Bible. Read the fucking thing.
If anyone read it, he'd see what a pile of manure it is, so count yourself lucky that so few actually do read it. It's so loaded w/mistakes and contradictions that nobody w/a thimble full of brains can sit still for it - yet it stays in print. Why? Nobody really reads it but for the already brain dead.
Such a convincing and logical argument... How could I have ever been so blind?!
Your insults don't really have an effect if you were curious. Some become believers in GOD prior to ever reading any type of scripture or ever going to a church or mosque.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
Such a convincing and logical argument... How could I have ever been so blind?!
Your insults don't really have an effect if you were curious. Some become believers in GOD prior to ever reading any type of scripture or ever going to a church or mosque.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Good. Now we've dumped the rag - how much further to go before we dump the Boogie Man?
You base your whole case on the rag - when I won't accept the rag - you dump the rag - well, I don't accept the BM, either - and I DON'T care if every last being from here to far side of the Universe does. Numbers do not impress me. Here's what will - produce him. Live, in person. I want to see him. I don't care if he's no bigger than a flea. If you can't do that, you are wasting your time. I want to see him, hear him, smell him - if you can't do that, he does not exist - never has, never will. Period. I don't care whom you get to testify.
[quote author=popsthebuilder link=topic=10069.msg1133644#msg1133644 date=1464061673
So now I'm curious. What have you been studying as of late? Is it more scholarly in origin or philosophical? Is from a more skeptical perspective or opened?
Humbly,
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
[/quote]
Pops, I am currently reading and studying a book by Richard Carrier--On The Historicity of Jesus (Why We Might Have Reason For Doubt). I have been reading this, fact and source checking it, and reflecting on what I have been reading. I would suggest it is neither skeptical or philosophical; but then, it could be considered a bit of both. I have found that when one looks at history with a neutral eye, one finds the skeptical viewpoint to be useful.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 11:55:02 PM
Sounds sorta nihilistic.
If you didn't have faith in anything then you would have no motivation to exist.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
The part of nihilism that rejects organized religion, yes--but the part that says life is meaningless it not part of my thoughts--not now or ever. I find life to be full of meaning.
I view belief to be the act of accepting a statement as being factual without doing any work to determine for yourself if that is true or not. And I see faith as the willful and reveled in, acceptance of statements as fact without doing the work to determine if it is true and then feeling proud that you do so. In fact, faith is the acceptance of something as true and expecting others to follow suit because of your deeply held faith and the sincerity of that faith. Because one is sincere in a belief does not make it so.
I have always had a motivation to live and embrace life as pretty damn good. It is far, far better than the alternative.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 07:23:42 AM
Sorry, I know I already replied to this post, but I overlooked the part where you claimed that I think I am superior to you or anyone else. That couldn't be further from the truth.
I regard myself as 0, with no intrinsic worth whatsoever. Believe me when I say I give all more credit than I give myself. I am noone. No thing, but what I have been given by Grace and mercy. Though I might say someone is being irrational or foolish, you will never hear or see me say that I am of any higher intellect or worth or value than any other. I regard all other life as more precious than my own.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Okay, I confess, I was probably too hard on you in that I did not delve very deeply into what you actually believe. I have known a few people like you in that their attitude is much like yours. While, at first that seemed to be a commendable, in some ways, way of looking at yourself and life, it turns out not to be for me. Sometimes they like to use their humility as a club, sort of one-upping a person with their selfless attitude and actions. They also display an attitude that smacks of 'I am more selfless than you; and you need to do better with that.' They seem and act slightly smug. I don't really know if you are personally like that or not. But I thought I detected a bit of that from your early posts. I may have been reading my own thoughts into your posts, however.
I subscribe to the idea of 'One must love oneself before they can love others.' point of view. I personally find that if I am accepting of myself and love myself, I am much more likely to display those tendencies toward others. I really don't understand how one can love anybody else without loving themselves first. And I do not mean 'love' to mean to put oneself above others, but to realize that all living creatures (well, not all, for there are some germs, virus, and parasites I'd love to see eradicated) deserve the chance to live life. All living things have worth--yeah, all things have worth. And you do too. If you have no worth why not off yourself and move on to the next step? I think I understand what you are saying about your personal beliefs, but I find that that attitude does not work for me. It may for you, and more power to you.
Notice I did not use the words belief or faith when talking about my own thoughts and reasons for doing what I do. I do not have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I think it will rise tomorrow based upon all my years of seeing it do so, and the research into what is meant by that phrase. For the sun does not rise, but the earth spins and gives the allusion of 'rising'. And it does so not from a belief or faith, but because of a physical fact. And if the sun does not rise tomorrow, I will then change my thinking on that subject.
QuoteI regard myself as 0, with no intrinsic worth whatsoever. Believe me when I say I give all more credit than I give myself. I am noone. No thing, but what I have been given by Grace and mercy. Though I might say someone is being irrational or foolish, you will never hear or see me say that I am of any higher intellect or worth or value than any other. I regard all other life as more precious than my own.
Oh jesus christ we got Kwai Chang Caine on here. "I am nothing grasshopper. I am the ghost on the wind" Cue kung fu moves.....
Having gained access to herbal medicines for the wife, I'm getting a whole new perspective on the forum. Hey, you make a vaporizer you have to test it, know what I mean? :biggrin:
You can make a vaporizer from a light bulb. I love technology.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 08:52:30 AM
Pops, I am currently reading and studying a book by Richard Carrier--On The Historicity of Jesus (Why We Might Have Reason For Doubt). I have been reading this, fact and source checking it, and reflecting on what I have been reading. I would suggest it is neither skeptical or philosophical; but then, it could be considered a bit of both. I have found that when one looks at history with a neutral eye, one finds the skeptical viewpoint to be useful.
Figures. Carrier is dismissed by serious scholars including fellow atheists.
Mythicism is a joke. But drink up.
Denying that Jesus ever existed is easier than having to think about the implications of his resurrection if he did.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
Figures. Carrier is dismissed by serious scholars including fellow atheists.
Mythicism is a joke. But drink up.
Denying that Jesus ever existed is easier than having to think about the implications of his resurrection if he did.
If he did, you don't have to think about anything other than an heretical rabbi getting himself nailed to a plank.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
Figures. Carrier is dismissed by serious scholars including fellow atheists.
Mythicism is a joke. But drink up.
Denying that Jesus ever existed is easier than having to think about the implications of his resurrection if he did.
Oh by the way, is he coming back soon? Turns out every generation is expecting his return and we have a current crop of evangelical windbags screaming loudly because we're doomed because gays are getting married and transgenders are using the wrong bathroom.
2,000 years and about that same number of failed predictions and prophecies. You know, blood moon, solar eclipse, etc. Keep us posted.
Quote from: stromboli on May 24, 2016, 10:18:43 AM
Oh by the way, is he coming back soon? Turns out every generation is expecting his return and we have a current crop of evangelical windbags screaming loudly because we're doomed because gays are getting married and transgenders are using the wrong bathroom.
2,000 years and about that same number of failed predictions and prophecies. You know, blood moon, solar eclipse, etc. Keep us posted.
Swiiiiiiiing and a miss. You must be running out of better responses.
Maybe you're poking fun at the man-made denomination you used to belong to, but this is meaningless to me.
What is the position of the Catholic Church on this matter?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 11:11:20 PM
aitm,
I couldn't help but notice how you said first that the history of said book has been proven wrong, but towards the end of your passive aggressive emotionally charged rant you said you need no proof...
The book has been proven wrong. You simply refuse to accept it. That is why you and others like you must continue to find people who agree with you. That is why so many of you have to work so hard to proof your whack-a-doodle crap. It is easy to declare the babble to be bull-shit, one merely reads it with common sense, and the bullshit leaps from the pages. But you have to consult with "authorities" and "experts" to find people who agree with you, thus, you now claim you have the truth. It's not that hard. You see bull-shit everyday, you just have to much of your ego invested in your beliefs to admit you were duped.
Quote from: aitm on May 24, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
The book has been proven wrong.
Although I could defend the OT, for simplicity, let's focus on the New since if Jesus is not God, then Christianity is pointless.
What SPECIFICALLY has been proven wrong in the NT, and how does this undermine our reasonable trust in the authors of the gospels concerning Jesus?
Be
SPECIFIC.
QuoteYou simply refuse to accept it.
We accept the Bible. You are the one who simply refuses to accept it.
QuoteThat is why you and others like you must continue to find people who agree with you.
And why to you work as a staffer of this forum if not to surround yourself with people who will tell you that the lies of atheism are undeniably true.
Christians come here because they want to...you come here because you NEED to have your false worldview reinforced.
QuoteThat is why so many of you have to work so hard to proof your whack-a-doodle crap.
No, we work hard to answer "whack-a-doodle" questions. And we answer them WELL.
QuoteIt is easy to declare the babble to be bull-shit, one merely reads it with common sense, and the bullshit leaps from the pages.
I agree. It is easy to declare that. It is harder to PROVE it once your claims are scrutinized.
QuoteBut you have to consult with "authorities" and "experts" to find people who agree with you, thus, you now claim you have the truth. It's not that hard. You see bull-shit everyday, you just have to much of your ego invested in your beliefs to admit you were duped.
Conversely, you
can't find "authorities" and "experts" who agree with you because
MYTHICISM IS A JOKE, and knowledgeable atheists disavow this stupidity.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
Figures. Carrier is dismissed by serious scholars including fellow atheists.
Mythicism is a joke. But drink up.
Denying that Jesus ever existed is easier than having to think about the implications of his resurrection if he did.
Of course in your warped little world, anybody or anything that goes against your fictional world is dismissed by serious scholars. As with everything else in your life and small minded mind, everything will be as your see it in your fictional world--just repeat, repeat, repeat!
I don't care what anyone thinks. Just behaviour. Thought police is a religious fanatic specialty.
How do you rationalize bible thumper campaigns of harassment, where religious organizations spread character defamation for 1000's of miles? :angry:
Mennonite Mob Investigation - NBC LA News - YouTube
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTz9LHyrfMAhUrsoMKHYYTCa44ChC3AghgMA0&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3e1gP0m-3qc&usg=AFQjCNHsmh-7eyzX55jN8PFG9Z4R_VFaOg&bvm=bv.121070826,d.amc (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTz9LHyrfMAhUrsoMKHYYTCa44ChC3AghgMA0&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3e1gP0m-3qc&usg=AFQjCNHsmh-7eyzX55jN8PFG9Z4R_VFaOg&bvm=bv.121070826,d.amc)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:42:37 AM
let's focus on the New since if Jesus is not God, then Christianity is pointless.
This is what we have been trying to tell you, you simple minded and blind oaf.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 10:51:03 AM
Of course in your warped little world, anybody or anything that goes against your fictional world is dismissed by serious scholars. As with everything else in your life and small minded mind, everything will be as your see it in your fictional world--just repeat, repeat, repeat!
It's not just my own warped little world, Mike.
Go online. Do your own research. Expand YOUR world.
Carrier is not taken seriously by any NT scholars - believers and unbelievers alike.
Quote from: Harassed on May 24, 2016, 10:53:41 AM
I don't care what anyone thinks. Just behaviour. Thought police is a religious fanatic specialty.
How do you rationalize bible thumper campaigns of harassment, where religious organizations spread character defamation for 1000's of miles? :angry:
Mennonite Mob Investigation - NBC LA News - YouTube
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTz9LHyrfMAhUrsoMKHYYTCa44ChC3AghgMA0&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3e1gP0m-3qc&usg=AFQjCNHsmh-7eyzX55jN8PFG9Z4R_VFaOg&bvm=bv.121070826,d.amc (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=24&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTz9LHyrfMAhUrsoMKHYYTCa44ChC3AghgMA0&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3e1gP0m-3qc&usg=AFQjCNHsmh-7eyzX55jN8PFG9Z4R_VFaOg&bvm=bv.121070826,d.amc)
Do you think that this situation is representative of all Christians?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 11:03:25 AM
It's not just my own warped little world, Mike.
Go online. Do your own research. Expand YOUR world.
Carrier is not taken seriously by any NT scholars - believers and unbelievers alike.
Of course, Repeater Randy. That's it--continue taking your pablum--you'll be okay. Just relax and keep repeating this fiction over and over--you will believe.....................
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 10:54:44 AM
This is what we have been trying to tell you, you simple minded and blind oaf.
I have posted previously that if Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity is meaningless. This is no big surprise for Paul wrote the same thing to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 15:14-2014 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
What you have been trying to tell me is that Jesus was NOT raised from the dead, but you have no evidence...just your preference.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 11:05:57 AM
Of course, Repeater Randy. That's it--continue taking your pablum--you'll be okay. Just relax and keep repeating this fiction over and over--you will believe.....................
No one takes Carrier seriously. Except mindless sycophants.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 11:08:09 AM
I have posted previously that if Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity is meaningless. This is no big surprise for Paul wrote the same thing to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 15:14-20
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
What you have been trying to tell me is that Jesus was NOT raised from the dead, but you have no evidence...just your preference.
You're the one w/NO evidence. There is NO evidence that he rose from the dead. All we have are the mouldering rantings of a depraved sect. Not one piece of scientifically acceptable evidence exists anywhere on the globe. The NT is worthless as evidence. It's not even worth one's own mommy going into court to say that one was at home on the evening of. It's trash. Or at least that is where it belongs.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 11:13:12 AM
You're the one w/NO evidence.
You keep saying that like it's actually true. In point of fact, I can offer numerous reasons to believe in the resurrection (I feel a new thread coming on...).
Quote
There is NO evidence that he rose from the dead. All we have are the mouldering rantings of a depraved sect. Not one piece of scientifically acceptable evidence exists anywhere on the globe. The NT is worthless as evidence. It's not even worth one's own mommy going into court to say that one was at home on the evening of. It's trash. Or at least that is where it belongs.
How old are you?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 11:38:22 AM
You keep saying that like it's actually true. In point of fact, I can offer numerous reasons to believe in the resurrection (I feel a new thread coming on...).
How old are you?
52
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 11:44:00 AM
52
Good to know. I'm a few years older...but not many.
You must have a birthday coming up...
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 11:44:00 AM
52
Marom,
If the ever so ignorant Randy accepts his New Testament as the truth, then ZEUS' writings about him are equal in validity. Its that simple. See how myth works? lol
Then enter insidious apologetics, where the fox is guarding the chicken coop at all costs, even to the point laughter, as it has been shown by the token Randy Carson.
Quote from: aitm on May 24, 2016, 10:31:14 AM
The book has been proven wrong. You simply refuse to accept it. That is why you and others like you must continue to find people who agree with you. That is why so many of you have to work so hard to proof your whack-a-doodle crap. It is easy to declare the babble to be bull-shit, one merely reads it with common sense, and the bullshit leaps from the pages. But you have to consult with "authorities" and "experts" to find people who agree with you, thus, you now claim you have the truth. It's not that hard. You see bull-shit everyday, you just have to much of your ego invested in your beliefs to admit you were duped.
Again, I consult no one. I need no one else's validation for what I know to be true. It wouldn't matter to me if no one else thought what I do.
My Faith isn't/ wasn't derived from scriptures of any faithful, but said scriptures do confirm it and strengthen it.
Your shooting in the dark still with your wild assumptions. Really, I will gladly disclose any information to you so you can stop guessing. As entertaining as it is for me, it must be at least somewhat humiliating for you to be wrong with every sentence. I can't speak for others, perhaps you have them pegged, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why you think I would need the support of any person at all.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
marom1963,
Dumped the rag???
What do you mean by rag? And how do I base my case on it? What case is mine? You aren't making sense.
I'm glad you don't believe in a thing because others do, that would be sad and pathetic.
Him who? Who do you want me to produce for you? You sure are confusing. I can only assume you mean GOD, but to do that I have to assume that you think GOD is a male, giving it human characteristics. But I don't get why you do that, as you don't believe in any form of GOD yet here you are saying for to produce Him.
To be honest I cannot produce anything that will change your mind. That is between you and GOD. When I was atheist no other person would have ever been able to deture my surety.
You say I'm wasting my time. How so? What makes you think I'm here for any other reason than conversation?
Do you think I'm here to make converts? I'm not.
I don't know about seeing GOD per say, or hearing or smelling GOD exactly, as those are rather basic sensory functions. But when IT comes to you, it will be undeniable.
I haven't even mentioned bringing forward anyone else's testimony, nor have I submitted any one else's claims. It's like some of you are on a defensive cognitive loop.
Break the cycle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 09:01:29 AM
The part of nihilism that rejects organized religion, yes--but the part that says life is meaningless it not part of my thoughts--not now or ever. I find life to be full of meaning.
I view belief to be the act of accepting a statement as being factual without doing any work to determine for yourself if that is true or not. And I see faith as the willful and reveled in, acceptance of statements as fact without doing the work to determine if it is true and then feeling proud that you do so. In fact, faith is the acceptance of something as true and expecting others to follow suit because of your deeply held faith and the sincerity of that faith. Because one is sincere in a belief does not make it so.
I have always had a motivation to live and embrace life as pretty damn good. It is far, far better than the alternative.
I understand your sentiment towards those two words. It is a shame that the masses have blindly followed the few out of fear.
Please do not think that my Faith is the product of any lack of work on my part, or the product of indoctrination whatsoever.
Since and before my revelation I have worked to find things out for sure. Introspection, lack of pride, and inner honesty, seemed to be precursors as did affliction perhaps. I used to be atheist and would have regarded my present self as bat shit crazy, I am aware of this now, and partially for that reason I study and contemplate, and feel my way around, checking what was shown to me. All subsequent checks have only verified what I know. I thank you for the change in tone, and am already more receptive to what you say because of it.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 09:18:47 AM
Okay, I confess, I was probably too hard on you in that I did not delve very deeply into what you actually believe. I have known a few people like you in that their attitude is much like yours. While, at first that seemed to be a commendable, in some ways, way of looking at yourself and life, it turns out not to be for me. Sometimes they like to use their humility as a club, sort of one-upping a person with their selfless attitude and actions. They also display an attitude that smacks of 'I am more selfless than you; and you need to do better with that.' They seem and act slightly smug. I don't really know if you are personally like that or not. But I thought I detected a bit of that from your early posts. I may have been reading my own thoughts into your posts, however.
I subscribe to the idea of 'One must love oneself before they can love others.' point of view. I personally find that if I am accepting of myself and love myself, I am much more likely to display those tendencies toward others. I really don't understand how one can love anybody else without loving themselves first. And I do not mean 'love' to mean to put oneself above others, but to realize that all living creatures (well, not all, for there are some germs, virus, and parasites I'd love to see eradicated) deserve the chance to live life. All living things have worth--yeah, all things have worth. And you do too. If you have no worth why not off yourself and move on to the next step? I think I understand what you are saying about your personal beliefs, but I find that that attitude does not work for me. It may for you, and more power to you.
Notice I did not use the words belief or faith when talking about my own thoughts and reasons for doing what I do. I do not have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I think it will rise tomorrow based upon all my years of seeing it do so, and the research into what is meant by that phrase. For the sun does not rise, but the earth spins and gives the allusion of 'rising'. And it does so not from a belief or faith, but because of a physical fact. And if the sun does not rise tomorrow, I will then change my thinking on that subject.
We see here that we have two differing views on love. Can you attempt to explain why your view is that one must love themself in order to love other life please? This is quite interesting and admittedly alien to me.
I apologize if I come of as smug. I really don't mean to. It seems to be the subject matter.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: stromboli on May 24, 2016, 10:18:43 AM
Oh by the way, is he coming back soon? Turns out every generation is expecting his return and we have a current crop of evangelical windbags screaming loudly because we're doomed because gays are getting married and transgenders are using the wrong bathroom.
2,000 years and about that same number of failed predictions and prophecies. You know, blood moon, solar eclipse, etc. Keep us posted.
The holocaust wasn't a failed prophecy.
Just sayin
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 01:22:48 PM
marom1963,
Dumped the rag???
What do you mean by rag? And how do I base my case on it? What case is mine? You aren't making sense.
I'm glad you don't believe in a thing because others do, that would be sad and pathetic.
Him who? Who do you want me to produce for you? You sure are confusing. I can only assume you mean GOD, but to do that I have to assume that you think GOD is a male, giving it human characteristics. But I don't get why you do that, as you don't believe in any form of GOD yet here you are saying for to produce Him.
To be honest I cannot produce anything that will change your mind. That is between you and GOD. When I was atheist no other person would have ever been able to deture my surety.
You say I'm wasting my time. How so? What makes you think I'm here for any other reason than conversation?
Do you think I'm here to make converts? I'm not.
I don't know about seeing GOD per say, or hearing or smelling GOD exactly, as those are rather basic sensory functions. But when IT comes to you, it will be undeniable.
I haven't even mentioned bringing forward anyone else's testimony, nor have I submitted any one else's claims. It's like some of you are on a defensive cognitive loop.
Break the cycle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
The
Bible, of course. That's a rag, if ever there was one. I'd wipe up vomit w/it.
And, please, you're here to convert. You believe that you can come along and spread the good crapola and we'll just drop before it. Won't happen, but you're on a mission. Unlike flies, however, we're not attracted to shit. Take the pile elsewhere. There are plenty of flies in the World who'd just love to blow a good pile. Not here, fella. Nobody here is going to sniff the Jesus shit and say, "Ah, how sweet!" Instead, all you're going to get is, "What a load!" ... Conversation? You mean abuse? Fine. If you're a masochist who likes being insulted - fine. Stick around - and we'll be happy to insult you. Which you'll enjoy b/c you're building up your martyr points, of course. While you're at it, why not take your free hand - the one that isn't jerking you off - and drive some nails into your knee caps. That ought to hurt real good.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 02:10:32 PM
The Bible, of course. That's a rag, if ever there was one. I'd wipe up vomit w/it.
And, please, you're here to convert. You believe that you can come along and spread the good crapola and we'll just drop before it. Won't happen, but you're on a mission. Unlike flies, however, we're not attracted to shit. Take the pile elsewhere. There are plenty of flies in the World who'd just love to blow a good pile. Not here, fella. Nobody here is going to sniff the Jesus shit and say, "Ah, how sweet!" Instead, all you're going to get is, "What a load!" ... Conversation? You mean abuse? Fine. If you're a masochist who likes being insulted - fine. Stick around - and we'll be happy to insult you. Which you'll enjoy b/c you're building up your martyr points, of course. While you're at it, why not take your free hand - the one that isn't jerking you off - and drive some nails into your knee caps. That ought to hurt real good.
Way to clarify and answer pretty much nothing.ðŸ'
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
Way to clarify and answer pretty much nothing.ðŸ'
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I told you - testimony - including yours - doesn't mean SHIT. Produce him. That's it. The only argument that you can make. That's the sole piece of acceptable evidence. Otherwise, you have NO case.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 02:20:16 PM
I told you - testimony - including yours - doesn't mean SHIT. Produce him. That's it. The only argument that you can make. That's the sole piece of acceptable evidence. Otherwise, you have NO case.
I'm not here to prove anything to you. Wait and see. I wait with you.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 02:44:11 PM
I'm not here to prove anything to you. Wait and see. I wait with you.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Way to clarify and answer pretty much nothing.ðŸ'
Quote from: marom1963 on May 24, 2016, 03:04:38 PM
Way to clarify and answer pretty much nothing.ðŸ'
Didn't realize you had asked a question.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 04:11:36 PM
Didn't realize you had asked a question.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Way to clarify and
say pretty much nothing
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 01:42:23 PM
We see here that we have two differing views on love. Can you attempt to explain why your view is that one must love themself in order to love other life please? This is quite interesting and admittedly alien to me.
I apologize if I come of as smug. I really don't mean to. It seems to be the subject matter.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Okay, pops I'll give it a shot. I am a teacher by profession and love to share with people what I know. I'll use a simple example. How can I teach anybody how to tie a shoe lace if I can't do it myself? How can I teach somebody to drive if I can't do it myself? How can I teach actual true history if I don't know it myself? In order to effectively teach somebody you have to know what it is you are trying to teach. So, how can you teach love to somebody if you don't do it for yourself? That's what I mean when I say we must love ourselves before we can love anybody else. I cannot share what I don't have. I can't teach what I don't know.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 05:42:19 PM
Okay, pops I'll give it a shot. I am a teacher by profession and love to share with people what I know. I'll use a simple example. How can I teach anybody how to tie a shoe lace if I can't do it myself? How can I teach somebody to drive if I can't do it myself? How can I teach actual true history if I don't know it myself? In order to effectively teach somebody you have to know what it is you are trying to teach. So, how can you teach love to somebody if you don't do it for yourself? That's what I mean when I say we must love ourselves before we can love anybody else. I cannot share what I don't have. I can't teach what I don't know.
And how can you teach others about God if you don't know Him yourself? How could your parents teach you properly about Him if they did not know Him?
But this doesn't stop you from asserting that your views of God are correct even when you may simply be ignorant of God and, consequently, misleading those you "teach" when you post falsely?
That chain of people who knew G-d, was pretty well broken even before Constantine. After that, it was catechism ... memorizing of questions and answers, to get to the point where you could be baptized, and fully participate in the house churches. It was a mystery religion much like others of that time ... it was a mystery until you became a full member, then you could see and participate in everything, and then the mystery was gone.
"God has written his law on the hearts of all men and made Himself known through creation so that men are without excuse."
And that is why scripture and institutional religion are unnecessary. What is your excuse, Randy?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:42:37 AM
if Jesus is not God, then Christianity is pointless.
At least we agree on one thing.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 11:38:22 AM
You keep saying that like it's actually true. In point of fact, I can offer numerous reasons to believe in the resurrection (I feel a new thread coming on...).
I'm sure you can offer numerous reasons for YOU to believe in the resurrection. But we're looking for actual evidence. You seem incapable of understanding that there is a difference between one and the other.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 06:01:46 PM
And how can you teach others about God if you don't know Him yourself? How could your parents teach you properly about Him if they did not know Him?
But this doesn't stop you from asserting that your views of God are correct even when you may simply be ignorant of God and, consequently, misleading those you "teach" when you post falsely?
RANDY, AGAIN, PLEASE SHOW RESPECT TO YOUR HEBREW CHRISTIAN GOD AND CALL HIM BY HIS DIRECT HEBREW NAME OF YAHWEH!To relieve you from your ignorance once again, when you post "god" it means that there is only one god, whereas historicity states there were many mythical gods in the BCE, get it? Seriously, as an Atheist, I really hate correcting you all the time, and I am sure you hate it as well, okay?
As an example, pick out your specific Christian god of myth amongst the others shown below, okay? Thanks.
Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama.
Randy, were you able to find your mythical Christian god amongst the list above? Let me know if you need help in finding him, you're welcome!
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 23, 2016, 11:55:02 PM
If you didn't have faith in anything then you would have no motivation to exist. I seem to be attempting to step clear of the personal attacks while you seem to want to continue in them.
Motivation to exist is not required in order for one to exist. Nice to have, sure. But definitely not required. And since you mentioned personal attacks here's something you might want to consider. If you don't like people attacking you, stop saying shit that makes you seem like an asshole. For instance this:
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 07:16:36 AM
Do you actually consider ancient people to be lesser than you?
See this? This is something an asshole says. It is entirely possible for you to make the points your trying to make without saying things like this that make you seem like an asshole. He said he believes the bible was written by semi literate people who were to a large extent much less educated (i.e. much more ignorant) than people of today are. Considering one group to be lessor than the other doesn't even enter into it. But you chose to make that connection and pose the question which you posed which is what an asshole would do. Stop being an asshole and people will stop attacking you. Its not rocket science.
Quote from: Johan on May 24, 2016, 07:29:09 PM
Motivation to exist is not required in order for one to exist. Nice to have, sure. But definitely not required. And since you mentioned personal attacks here's something you might want to consider. If you don't like people attacking you, stop saying shit that makes you seem like an asshole. For instance this:
See this? This is something an asshole says. It is entirely possible for you to make the points your trying to make without saying things like this that make you seem like an asshole. He said he believes the bible was written by semi literate people who were to a large extent much less educated (i.e. much more ignorant) than people of today are. Considering one group to be lessor than the other doesn't even enter into it. But you chose to make that connection and pose the question which you posed which is what an asshole would do. Stop being an asshole and people will stop attacking you. Its not rocket science.
I couldn't care less if people attack me or not. I wrote that for the benefit of others as I at times have been known to retaliate in like kind, similar to the golden rule that some here claimed to adhere to.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 24, 2016, 05:42:19 PM
Okay, pops I'll give it a shot. I am a teacher by profession and love to share with people what I know. I'll use a simple example. How can I teach anybody how to tie a shoe lace if I can't do it myself? How can I teach somebody to drive if I can't do it myself? How can I teach actual true history if I don't know it myself? In order to effectively teach somebody you have to know what it is you are trying to teach. So, how can you teach love to somebody if you don't do it for yourself? That's what I mean when I say we must love ourselves before we can love anybody else. I cannot share what I don't have. I can't teach what I don't know.
So you think that one who doesn't love themself is incapable of showing love? That is an interesting concept.
Well if that is the case then how is it that I have loved in the past, and still exude love towards others to this day?
Thank you for attempting to explain. I look forward to your reply.
Humbly, peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
So you think that one who doesn't love themself is incapable of showing love? That is an interesting concept.
Well if that is the case then how is it that I have loved in the past, and still exude love towards others to this day?
Thank you for attempting to explain. I look forward to your reply.
Humbly, peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I suppose we're supposed to believe that you have no love for yourself, then?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 24, 2016, 08:42:44 PM
So you think that one who doesn't love themself is incapable of showing love? That is an interesting concept.
Well if that is the case then how is it that I have loved in the past, and still exude love towards others to this day?
Thank you for attempting to explain. I look forward to your reply.
Humbly, peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Yeah--that's my hypothesis--love yourself, better able to love others.
I don't know you, pops and have no idea how you act. All I have is your word. You must have some amount of self love--you are here posting and not dead.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 10:42:37 AM
Although I could defend the OT,
You haven't defended shit except in your own mind. IF the OT is bullshit the NT is and both are bullshit.
QuoteWhat SPECIFICALLY has been proven wrong in the NT,
you've already been given two dozen at least and all you do is dodge and ignore. Jesus promised the OT was infallible, you argued he didn't say that…dodge. Jesus said he would be back within one generation, another lie, you claim it a misinterpretation, more bullshit. All you do is dodge what they believed 900 years ago to be the absolute truth but because now we have science, you dodge.
QuoteWe accept the Bible. You are the one who simply refuses to accept it.
no we willingly admit you're stupid.
QuoteChristians come here because they want to...you come here because you NEED to have your false worldview reinforced.
awww, look at you stealing the original idea,, how completely typical
QuoteConversely, you can't find "authorities" and "experts" who agree with you
I don't need them, I have never read any atheist book. I read the babble, it is bullshit, provable 100%. While you continue to quote dozens. I have never quoted anyone, don't need to. The babble is all the proof I need. OF course I have a lot more, but the babble is proven bullshit. Complete utter bullshit. Proven. Without a doubt. 100%. No argument from anyone with common sense and logic. Complete bullshit. You need help with your insecurities, I have none. Point match game..boy.
Quote from: aitm on May 24, 2016, 10:10:54 PM
You haven't defended shit except in your own mind. IF the OT is bullshit the NT is and both are bullshit.
you've already been given two dozen at least and all you do is dodge and ignore. Jesus promised the OT was infallible, you argued he didn't say that…dodge. Jesus said he would be back within one generation, another lie, you claim it a misinterpretation, more bullshit. All you do is dodge what they believed 900 years ago to be the absolute truth but because now we have science, you dodge.
no we willingly admit you're stupid.
awww, look at you stealing the original idea,, how completely typical
I don't need them, I have never read any atheist book. I read the babble, it is bullshit, provable 100%. While you continue to quote dozens. I have never quoted anyone, don't need to. The babble is all the proof I need. OF course I have a lot more, but the babble is proven bullshit. Complete utter bullshit. Proven. Without a doubt. 100%. No argument from anyone with common sense and logic. Complete bullshit. You need help with your insecurities, I have none. Point match game..boy.
The Christ didn't say the ot was infallible.
And generation could be seen in different ways. I'll give you that one.
That's 2, not two dozen.
You repeating yourself in a rant doesn't make you right.
You have faith the the bible is bullshit. We have faith that it is not.
You have faith that there is no GOD whatsoever. We have faith that there is. There is no absolute evidence observable to a third party that can confirm or deny either of our stances so how is it that you are so confident? At least my Faith is a product of personal experience. What is your a based on?
Really, that's an honest question.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Everybody uses personal experience ... but we interpret it different way according to our personality. Personality varies and experience accumulates. I would agree that Jesus didn't say that the Pharisee's or Sadducee's interpretation of the OT was infallible ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 07:01:21 AM
At least my Faith is a product of personal experience. What is your a based on?
Same.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 07:01:21 AM
The Christ didn't say the ot was infallible.
And generation could be seen in different ways. I'll give you that one.
That's 2, not two dozen.
You repeating yourself in a rant doesn't make you right.
You have faith the the bible is bullshit. We have faith that it is not.
You have faith that there is no GOD whatsoever. We have faith that there is. There is no absolute evidence observable to a third party that can confirm or deny either of our stances so how is it that you are so confident? At least my Faith is a product of personal experience. What is your a based on?
Really, that's an honest question.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
You clearly have no idea what the word "faith" means. Believing in something, without any evidence to support your belief, is faith. Skepticism is not faith. We do not have "faith" that a book of fairytales is not historically true, or that a perfectly good, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent god exists in this imperfect world. You keep trying to lower skeptics to your level. It doesn't work that way.
Quote from: Johan on May 24, 2016, 07:15:09 PM
I'm sure you can offer numerous reasons for YOU to believe in the resurrection. But we're looking for actual evidence. You seem incapable of understanding that there is a difference between one and the other.
And this evidence is available for your consideration.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 25, 2016, 08:15:05 AM
Same.
Then at best, you can only be an agnostic and not an atheist.
If popsthebuilder has ALREADY had a personal experience of God, then that cannot be undone later.
But if you have NOT YET had a personal experience of God, then the future may well change that for you.
Consequently, you don't KNOW there is no God. You must concede the possibility of an experience in the future.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 25, 2016, 11:49:59 AM
Then at best, you can only be an agnostic and not an atheist.
If popsthebuilder has ALREADY had a personal experience of God, then that cannot be undone later.
But if you have NOT YET had a personal experience of God, then the future may well change that for you.
Consequently, you don't KNOW there is no God. You must concede the possibility of an experience in the future.
No. The difference between atheists and theists is this - we are honest. We will admit that there always remains a possibility that there is a god. Theists will never admit that there is a possibility that there is no god. We just happen to believe that there is no god. We just can't prove it - any more than you can prove that there is.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 25, 2016, 12:40:02 PM
No. The difference between atheists and theists is this - we are honest. We will admit that there always remains a possibility that there is a god.
Is that what everyone here thinks? It is
possible that God exists?
Then the forum should be
agnosticforums.com
Ha! There it is in a nutshell! Repeater Randy is a COWARD!! He is all about popularity and not taking any risks. If he were to spend some actual time using critical thinking he may find that he can't believe in his fiction--but he is too frightened to do that. So, just in case, he will say he is a christian, a believer in the fictional jesus just so he can go to heaven--if it exists. If not, nothing lost. Except his self respect and his ability to critically think. For him, being the coward he is, he finds that acceptable. Hypocrite is far far better for him to be than a candidate for hell, even if it is fictional. Just thinking of it makes his knees quake and his eyes tear in horror!!! Poor Repeater Randy--scared out of a reasoning mind--settling for an insanity, a fiction. Yes, the one word I have for Repeater Randy is PITY. I do pity the poor insane christian.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 25, 2016, 01:07:03 PM
Ha! There it is in a nutshell! Repeater Randy is a COWARD!! He is all about popularity and not taking any risks. If he were to spend some actual time using critical thinking he may find that he can't believe in his fiction--but he is too frightened to do that. So, just in case, he will say he is a christian, a believer in the fictional jesus just so he can go to heaven--if it exists. If not, nothing lost. Except his self respect and his ability to critically think. For him, being the coward he is, he finds that acceptable. Hypocrite is far far better for him to be than a candidate for hell, even if it is fictional. Just thinking of it makes his knees quake and his eyes tear in horror!!! Poor Repeater Randy--scared out of a reasoning mind--settling for an insanity, a fiction. Yes, the one word I have for Repeater Randy is PITY. I do pity the poor insane christian.
Does anyone else see the irony in Mike repeatedly posting this in every thread?
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/rotfl.gif)
Dull knife, meets hone.
Hey Randy, Sorry for not being up to date with our discussions. You probably figured this out on your own, but I am in fact a high school student. Thus I have work that needs to be done before finals.
One question: What makes Catholicism different from other sects?
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 25, 2016, 09:54:07 AM
You clearly have no idea what the word "faith" means. Believing in something, without any evidence to support your belief, is faith. Skepticism is not faith. We do not have "faith" that a book of fairytales is not historically true, or that a perfectly good, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent god exists in this imperfect world. You keep trying to lower skeptics to your level. It doesn't work that way.
Simple Definition of faith
: strong belief or trust in someone or something
: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs
: a system of religious beliefs
No one can know a part of a thing and base their faith from there.
You can't have faith in something you know absolutely nothing of.
Nice try though.
And yes it does work both ways. I have faith in the existence of a singular creative force for all existence.
You have faith in your belief that there is no such thing.
Both are based on experience, not proof, as you cannot prove that GOD does not exist, I cannot prove to you that it does.
Two sides of the same coin in my opinion.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 25, 2016, 03:07:47 PM
Hey Randy, Sorry for not being up to date with our discussions. You probably figured this out on your own, but I am in fact a high school student. Thus I have work that needs to be done before finals.
One question: What makes Catholicism different from other sects?
dtq123,
To answer this, and I am sure Randy Carson would agree, the Catholics have a stronger version of Kool Aide that they easily swallow for them to believe in the myth of their church. As shown in another thread, less people are now swallowing this drink, and are jettisoning a religion that has talking donkeys and snakes, man made from dust, the virgin birth, commands of killing witches, homosexuals, women that are not virgins on their wedding night, and other despicable acts that they're to perform commanded by their Bronze and Iron Age mythical Yahweh/Jesus.
Dtq123, but, you have to admit, their nonsense is funnier than SNL!
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 07:01:21 AM
The Christ didn't say the ot was infallible.
bullshit, jebus declared the OT infallible and that not one fucking word would EVER be changed
QuoteThat's 2, not two dozen.
why bother again for the 2345 time, we have already pointed out dozens of bullshit but you turn your head and cough….
QuoteYou have faith the the bible is bullshit.
no we have proof
QuoteWe have faith that it is not.
thats why you call it faith, the same faith that muslims, hindu and those who believe in astronomy have…big ass whoop you have there, not a single thing that makes your superstition nonsense even a TAD more believable that a Capricorn…LOL…a capricorn has the same valid reason you do. That is fucking pathetic.
Quotewhat is your a based on?
I read the babble with an open mind. Unlike yours
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 25, 2016, 12:44:54 PM
Is that what everyone here thinks? It is possible that God exists?
Then the forum should be agnosticforums.com
A lot of us are agnostics as well as atheists.
link (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3209wr/eli5_the_difference_between_athiest_agnostic_and/)
For someone who who tries very hard to be seen as some sort of religious expert, this is a pretty basic (and telling) error.
aitm,
I'm kinda starting to wonder about your logic and or critical thinking capacities.
It is repeatedly stated by Christ that the Jew lead many astray. He repeatedly says that the letter of the law is what condemns. Somewhere down the line, much of the law of Moses was interpreted as literal.
Please quote where Christ stated that the ot is inffalible.
He said the law is and always will be valid. He also said the law is placed on our hearts.
If you were actually opened to other possibilities then instead of ranting and spatting bullshit all day you would admit that you could be wrong.
There are two commands of GOD. All other law falls under those two commands.
Answer me this;
Do you think we are literally not to mix fabrics or could it just maybe be a parable referring to the fact that one cannot successfully serve two masters, or strive in two opposing directions.
Remember; your opened minded.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Don't forget t provide your proof you have.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 25, 2016, 07:21:28 PM
A lot of us are agnostics as well as atheists.
link (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3209wr/eli5_the_difference_between_athiest_agnostic_and/)
For someone who who tries very hard to be seen as some sort of religious expert, this is a pretty basic (and telling) error.
Could you tell that to whatever asshole insisted I was lying when I said approximately the same thing?
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 25, 2016, 11:49:59 AM
Then at best, you can only be an agnostic and not an atheist.
If popsthebuilder has ALREADY had a personal experience of God, then that cannot be undone later.
But if you have NOT YET had a personal experience of God, then the future may well change that for you.
Consequently, you don't KNOW there is no God. You must concede the possibility of an experience in the future.
It would seem to me, that popsthebuilder may have had such an encounter, it seems unlikely to me that you have. Your sect doesn't approve of such things.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 25, 2016, 03:07:47 PM
Hey Randy, Sorry for not being up to date with our discussions. You probably figured this out on your own, but I am in fact a high school student. Thus I have work that needs to be done before finals.
One question: What makes Catholicism different from other sects?
Kibitzing ... Keep up the good work, come right back after finals ... unless you have summer school ;-(
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
aitm,
I'm kinda starting to wonder about your logic and or critical thinking capacities.
It is repeatedly stated by Christ that the Jew lead many astray. He repeatedly says that the letter of the law is what condemns. Somewhere down the line, much of the law of Moses was interpreted as literal.
Please quote where Christ stated that the ot is inffalible.
He said the law is and always will be valid. He also said the law is placed on our hearts.
If you were actually opened to other possibilities then instead of ranting and spatting bullshit all day you would admit that you could be wrong.
There are two commands of GOD. All other law falls under those two commands.
Answer me this;
Do you think we are literally not to mix fabrics or could it just maybe be a parable referring to the fact that one cannot successfully serve two masters, or strive in two opposing directions.
Remember; your opened minded.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Don't forget t provide your proof you have.
popsthebuilder,
YOUR IGNORANT QUOTE: "Please quote where Christ stated that the ot is infallible."
JESUS H. CHRIST, I thought there was no one as IGNORANT as your equally dumbfounded Randy Carson, but you prove without a doubt that you equal or surpass him! LOL
JESUS SAID: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18)Has heaven and earth passed away yet? NO IT HAS NOT! Let me make this even simpler for you; With these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws to the permanence of heaven and earth, which in turn, says the Old Testament is infallible!. This biblical axiom also discards your fallacious notion that there're only two commands! Furthermore, save yourself even further embarrassment and DO NOT posit that "all is accomplished" is regarding Jesus' death, it is not! It refers to your mythical Jesus on his Second Coming, get it? If you want to discuss this biblical FACT, then chain up and hang on!
"The words of the LORD are flawless" (Psalms 12:6)
"Your word, O LORD, is eternal, it stands firm" (Psalms 119:89)
"Every word of God is flawless" (Proverbs 30:5-6)
THINK, INFALLIBILITY IS NOT REGARDED AS QUALITIES OF YOUR BRONZE AND IRON AGE GOD, GET IT?
The next time you try in vain to defend your primitive bible, at least know a modicum of its content, okay?
The pseudo-christian like you is guilty of your own biblical doctrine, to wit: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." (2 Timothy 4:3)UPDATE: popsthebuilder refuses to address this post, for obvious reasons, just like Randy Carson RUNS AWAY from biblical axioms that they didn't even know were in their primitive bibles. These two are spoon fed their doctrine through apologetics and the church on Sunday mornings, therefore they are both easy prey to biblical FACTS.
ATHEIST: 100
CHRISTIAN: 0
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
And yes it does work both ways. I have faith in the existence of a singular creative force for all existence.
You have faith in your belief that there is no such thing.
This is where theists keep trying to put thoughts into my head. You are just flat out wrong on this assessment. I do not have a belief about anything. I have faith in nothing; in nobody. I think something is true or false--and will keep thinking that until some evidence shows otherwise. I trust others (not all), but I don't have faith in them. I do not believe--I don't have any faith.
Faith is an outgrowth of Hinduism ... it came from India to the West. Just read about Bhakti in India, and Krishna's divine story ... this psychological movement was important in religious experience, world wide, in multiple religions eventually. Bhakti is one kind of Yoga ... and it involves personal devotion and faith. So Mike CL ... I guess you aren't ready to go visit the delectable Gopis with boy Krishna then? ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Do you think we are literally not to mix fabrics or could it just maybe be a parable referring to the fact that one cannot successfully serve two masters,
You are referring to the god of the universe right? Or are you referring to fucking ignorant dumb fuck? Which is it? It is the most brilliant, most powerful, most knowledgeable "thing" ever? Or a dumbfuck goat herder? Because a dumbfuck goat herder would write in parables, but a fucking god would be fucking smart enough to not write in fucking parables which would create arguments that would make it hard for people to believe he was all knowledgeable when it was obvious he was dumbfuck goat herder. HELLO!! There's your problem, and HERE is your sign.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Both are based on experience, not proof, as you cannot prove that GOD does not exist, I cannot prove to you that it does.
Two sides of the same coin in my opinion.
In your parlance, you suggest that I cannot prove that god does not exist. In that case, I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist; or Santa; or the Tooth Fairy; or Faries; or The Invisible Pink Unicorn; or---well, on and on. I can say that there is no evidence for any of those I've mentioned. Not one scrap or shred of evidence of any kind that they exist. you have no proof of god's existence, for there is none. You can chose to believe in a fiction if you wish. You could chose to believe that Bug Bunny is real. You could chose to believe that Thor is alive and well way up North. But, instead, you chose to believe that god exists. Your choice--but you have no proof. Because of that fact--there is no proof or evidence--I can state there is no god. Yeah, I know that that is an accurate statement. How do I know--through reasoning and critical thinking; not belief and faith.
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 08:36:59 PM
You are referring to the god of the universe right? Or are you referring to fucking ignorant dumb fuck? Which is it? It is the most brilliant, most powerful, most knowledgeable "thing" ever? Or a dumbfuck goat herder? Because a dumbfuck goat herder would write in parables, but a fucking god would be fucking smart enough to not write in fucking parables which would create arguments that would make it hard for people to believe he was all knowledgeable when it was obvious he was dumbfuck goat herder. HELLO!! There's your problem, and HERE is your sign.
I hope you feel better.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Its ALWAYS a parable when it is inconvenient, but it is ALWAYS written absolutely when it fits your prejudice. HERE's your sign.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 08:39:12 PM
I hope you feel better.
ah…I'm guessing the dumb fuck goat herder then….HERE's your sign.. LOLOLOL
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 25, 2016, 11:45:55 AM
And this evidence is available for your consideration.
Where? In the bible? That isn't evidence.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 25, 2016, 08:39:03 PM
In your parlance, you suggest that I cannot prove that god does not exist. In that case, I cannot prove that the Easter Bunny does not exist; or Santa; or the Tooth Fairy; or Faries; or The Invisible Pink Unicorn; or---well, on and on. I can say that there is no evidence for any of those I've mentioned. Not one scrap or shred of evidence of any kind that they exist. you have no proof of god's existence, for there is none. You can chose to believe in a fiction if you wish. You could chose to believe that Bug Bunny is real. You could chose to believe that Thor is alive and well way up North. But, instead, you chose to believe that god exists. Your choice--but you have no proof. Because of that fact--there is no proof or evidence--I can state there is no god. Yeah, I know that that is an accurate statement. How do I know--through reasoning and critical thinking; not belief and faith.
You and others still seem slightly confused.
My Faith isn't the product of a book, or multiple books, or indoctrination.
You make a good point about unicorns n stuff, and I'm not too proud to admit it. If a unicorn had revealed anything to me whatsoever then I would be searching for things to verify that. But it wasn't a fairy or troll or unicorn. In fact there was and has never been any divisive name associated with it. Names are just that and in the case of GOD; there is but one. All names refer to the same One Creator GOD. I can understand how or why one would have faith that the tooth fairy doesn't exist. But in light of things I can no longer make a similar statement regarding the existence of GOD.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 08:48:41 PM
. But in light of things I can no longer make a similar statement regarding the existence of GOD.
spoken like a ex-alchy or druggie…. pure bottom dweller saved by the bell…..hehehehe
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 08:48:41 PM
You and others still seem slightly confused.
My Faith isn't the product of a book, or multiple books, or indoctrination.
You make a good point about unicorns n stuff, and I'm not too proud to admit it. If a unicorn had revealed anything to me whatsoever then I would be searching for things to verify that. But it wasn't a fairy or troll or unicorn. In fact there was and has never been any divisive name associated with it. Names are just that and in the case of GOD; there is but one. All names refer to the same One Creator GOD. I can understand how or why one would have faith that the tooth fairy doesn't exist. But in light of things I can no longer make a similar statement regarding the existence of GOD.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
No, pops, I am not confused. You are a bit, tho. I am not saying you have not seen god. Or Santa. Or the Tooth Fairy. But I am saying you cannot prove (except to yourself) that god visited you or visits you on a regular basis. Personal testimony is just that--personal. You have not a shred of empirical evidence that god is real. You can have all the sincere belief and faith that your ideas about god are real and factual. But you cannot produce any proof for anybody else.
Once again, I don't have faith that the Tooth Fairy does not exist. Reasoning and critical thinking leads me to know that the Tooth Fairy does not exist. You keep wanting to imbue me with faith and belief--I don't share that with you. I don't have faith and belief--in anything.
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 08:39:29 PM
Its ALWAYS a parable when it is inconvenient, but it is ALWAYS written absolutely when it fits your prejudice. HERE's your sign.
What prejudice would that be?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Time to flush the toilet.
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 08:41:17 PM
ah…I'm guessing the dumb fuck goat herder then….HERE's your sign.. LOLOLOL
Stupid people have problems solving riddles let alone writing them.
It seems conversation with you is quite pointless. I'm sure you'll understand if I choose to ignore you.
I honestly wish you the very best.
I do not wish to argue for no reason. Have a good evening.
Peace
Peace.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 09:15:16 PM
Stupid people have problems solving riddles let alone writing them.
One would think a great and grand god would know that long before you and I eh? LOLOLOL..here's your sign dumbass.
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 09:00:02 PM
spoken like a ex-alchy or druggie…. pure bottom dweller saved by the bell…..hehehehe
I have no qualms about revealing my past. Who are you to insist you are better than any else? Just because your pride and arrogance veil your perceptions doesn't mean you are better than any other.
I dwelled on the bottom for years by my own doing. It taught me many things, least of which isn't humility.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 25, 2016, 09:04:01 PM
No, pops, I am not confused. You are a bit, tho. I am not saying you have not seen god. Or Santa. Or the Tooth Fairy. But I am saying you cannot prove (except to yourself) that god visited you or visits you on a regular basis. Personal testimony is just that--personal. You have not a shred of empirical evidence that god is real. You can have all the sincere belief and faith that your ideas about god are real and factual. But you cannot produce any proof for anybody else.
Once again, I don't have faith that the Tooth Fairy does not exist. Reasoning and critical thinking leads me to know that the Tooth Fairy does not exist. You keep wanting to imbue me with faith and belief--I don't share that with you. I don't have faith and belief--in anything.
Fair enough sir.
Contrary to your opinion though; you believe there is no GOD, correct?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 09:18:17 PM
One would think a great and grand god would know that long before you and I eh? LOLOLOL..here's your sign dumbass.
Of course.
Did you have a point?
As if GOD must abide by the command or will of any whatsoever.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 09:19:39 PM
I dwelled on the bottom for years by my own doing.
We atheists recognize this far better than you, because most of you who come in here are indeed of the same poor mold. Nothing is more "christian" than ex drunks and druggies. Doesn't mean a goddamn thing when it comes to proof however. Yeah we get it, you hit bottom, gave up, someone gave you a sammich and said Jesus saves and the next thing you know yer a fucking zombie. Well, good fer you…..whoop ti do.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 09:24:01 PM
As if GOD must abide by the command or will of any whatsoever.
Too busy commanding the death of innocent babies and the rape of little girls. Yeah, and you agree with that and wonder why I don't fucking care for you? You're a piece of human shit for accepting and proposing that other humans accept a piece of shit god like that. Give me a real god, you sure as hell don't have one.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 09:21:18 PM
Fair enough sir.
Contrary to your opinion though; you believe there is no GOD, correct?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Nooooooo............I do not believe anything. I use reasoning and critical thinking to determine if there is a god or not--and not. Name something you think I have to 'believe'. Besides god, that is.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Simple Definition of faith
: strong belief or trust in someone or something
: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs
: a system of religious beliefs
No one can know a part of a thing and base their faith from there.
You can't have faith in something you know absolutely nothing of.
Nice try though.
And yes it does work both ways. I have faith in the existence of a singular creative force for all existence.
You have faith in your belief that there is no such thing.
Both are based on experience, not proof, as you cannot prove that GOD does not exist, I cannot prove to you that it does.
Two sides of the same coin in my opinion.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
No. It does not go both ways. Skepticism is not a form of faith. Do you have faith that the President of the United States is NOT a shape-shifting lizard alien? Of course not. And to label that lack of belief as "faith" would be idiotic.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 25, 2016, 10:01:03 PM
Nooooooo............I do not believe anything. I use reasoning and critical thinking to determine if there is a god or not--and not. Name something you think I have to 'believe'. Besides god, that is.
Not just yet.
You say you use critical thinking, logic, and empirical evidence for your sole basis of knowledge. Commendable.
You say my Faith in GOD isn't similar to your belief that GOD does not exist. Yet neither can be proven empirically.
You say you use logic and critical thinking. So lets use some.
If we use logic we can hypothesize about the existence of GOD or the lack there of. I'm only going to use one example.
Absolutely everything within observable existence can be explained using math. From the tiniest iota to the largest masses. Our DNA, nature, energy, galactic plotting, sound, literally everything is mathematically structured in one way or another.
Now, it takes some level of intelligence to grasp any level of math.
Using logic and critical thinking, is it more feasible that all existence, being mathematically decipherable, is the product of intelligent design?
Or is it more logical to assume that though all is mathematically decipherable, it happened by some grand happenstance?
Damned illogical, gullible theists and their nonsense right?
Peace friend
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 25, 2016, 10:33:12 PM
No. It does not go both ways. Skepticism is not a form of faith. Do you have faith that the President of the United States is NOT a shape-shifting lizard alien? Of course not. And to label that lack of belief as "faith" would be idiotic.
If you can prove there is no GOD in any way shape of form then fine. Otherwise you assume God not to exist, and have faith in such.
Sorry
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
If you can prove there is no GOD in any way shape of form then fine. Otherwise you assume God not to exist, and have faith in such.
Sorry
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
If you can prove that the President is not a shape-shifting lizard alien, then fine. Otherwise you assume that Obama is human, and have faith in such.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 25, 2016, 11:54:28 PM
If you can prove that the President is not a shape-shifting lizard alien, then fine. Otherwise you assume that Obama is human, and have faith in such.
Quite convincing argument.😊
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 25, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
If you can prove there is no GOD in any way shape of form then fine. Otherwise you assume God not to exist, and have faith in such.
Sorry
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Man, this argument never changes from the flock. Yeah, we'll prove that something doesn't exist. Do you actually think before you type? And no atheism is not a belief.
It's a simple negation without content. No dogma, no rules to believe in.
But I make you a deal.
As soon as you tell us how you come to the conclusion that Zeus and Mithra are not real, we can use your method to prove your god is not real either.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 12:02:28 AM
Quite convincing argument.😊
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
So you agree that your faith in God is as credible as another's faith in a shape-shifting lizard alien species that secretly owns the White House?
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 12:07:40 AM
Man, this argument never changes from the flock. Yeah, we'll prove that something doesn't exist. Do you actually think before you type? And no atheism is not a belief. It's a simple negation without content. No dogma, no rules to believe in.
But I make you a deal. As soon as you tell us how you come to the conclusion that Zeus and Mithra are not real, we can use your method to prove your god is not real either.
You should sell bags of popcorn w/posts like that one. You'd make a fortune! I'm dying to see the come back!
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 12:08:05 AM
So you agree that your faith in God is as credible as another's faith in a shape-shifting lizard alien species that secretly owns the White House?
Uh... No
For me personally Faith in GOD pertains to more specific things that GOD's existence. For me the existence of GOD is irrefutable truth not dependent upon Faith whatsoever.
Having Faith that God will do as it is written and been shown takes Faith. Striving to live according to what I know is right regardless of scenario takes Faith at times. Knowing GOD exists, doesn't take Faith for me.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 06:02:17 AM
Uh... No
For me personally Faith in GOD pertains to more specific things that GOD's existence. For me the existence of GOD is irrefutable truth not dependent upon Faith whatsoever.
Having Faith that God will do as it is written and been shown takes Faith. Striving to live according to what I know is right regardless of scenario takes Faith at times. Knowing GOD exists, doesn't take Faith for me.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Well, then, what is it dependent upon?
Quote from: aitm on May 25, 2016, 09:27:19 PM
We atheists recognize this far better than you, because most of you who come in here are indeed of the same poor mold. Nothing is more "christian" than ex drunks and druggies. Doesn't mean a goddamn thing when it comes to proof however. Yeah we get it, you hit bottom, gave up, someone gave you a sammich and said Jesus saves and the next thing you know yer a fucking zombie. Well, good fer you…..whoop ti do.
Catharsis is a well known psychological experience that ex-drug abusers might experience. Of course some ex-drug abusers might attribute this to medicine or to a paranormal reform, which is primarily emotional and self-image altering. Not that shows G-d did it for them. There is a 12 step group for Jews too ... it isn't limited to a particular religion. Catharsis is even well known in Buddhism.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 06:02:17 AM
Uh... No
For me personally Faith in GOD pertains to more specific things that GOD's existence. For me the existence of GOD is irrefutable truth not dependent upon Faith whatsoever.
Having Faith that God will do as it is written and been shown takes Faith. Striving to live according to what I know is right regardless of scenario takes Faith at times. Knowing GOD exists, doesn't take Faith for me.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
It is axiomatic for me as well, based on fundamental perception of direct experience. But axioms aren't obvious and don't come easily, otherwise Stone Age man would have written Euclid's geometry book. But even Euclid's geometry isn't reality, it is only math, and not the only geometry possible. But it also means seeing things that others don't see ... because the perception of the same sensation is not the same. It is purely subjective, not objective. In that sense, it can't be proven, because it primarily involves internal experience. Such situations aren't publicly demonstrable. And as axioms, they aren't supposed to be proven, you don't prove axioms, you assume them.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 12:07:40 AM
Man, this argument never changes from the flock. Yeah, we'll prove that something doesn't exist. Do you actually think before you type? And no atheism is not a belief. It's a simple negation without content. No dogma, no rules to believe in.
But I make you a deal. As soon as you tell us how you come to the conclusion that Zeus and Mithra are not real, we can use your method to prove your god is not real either.
You don't have to prove anything to me. You need to know for yourself.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Baruch on May 26, 2016, 06:53:11 AM
It is axiomatic for me as well, based on fundamental perception of direct experience. But axioms aren't obvious and don't come easily, otherwise Stone Age man would have written Euclid's geometry book. But even Euclid's geometry isn't reality, it is only math, and not the only geometry possible. But it also means seeing things that others don't see ... because the perception of the same sensation is not the same. It is purely subjective, not objective. In that sense, it can't be proven, because it primarily involves internal experience. Such situations aren't publicly demonstrable. And as axioms, they aren't supposed to be proven, you don't prove axioms, you assume them.
Axiomatic...learned a new word...cool
Learn something new every day.
Catharsis too. Thanks.😊
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 26, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
Well, then, what is it dependent upon?
Personal revelation. As ridiculous as that may sound.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 07:39:06 AM
Personal revelation. As ridiculous as that may sound.
Odd how ole god only "reveals" himself to those born into families that indoctrinate their kids into the original idea eh? Never heard of a Indian, Muslim or Chinese kid suddenly waking up and saying they received a revelation from some god they never heard of prior....odd that eh? LOLOLOL what a dipshit.
The gods only appear to the culture into which they are conceived in, or which they were forced to accept. Basic religion 101. But OH NO! Personal revelation! Yes it sounds ridiculous because it IS ridiculous.....jebus, what twits.
Quote from: aitm on May 26, 2016, 07:45:12 AM
Odd how ole god only "reveals" himself to those born into families that indoctrinate their kids into the original idea eh? Never heard of a Indian, Muslim or Chinese kid suddenly waking up and saying they received a revelation from some god they never heard of prior....odd that eh? LOLOLOL what a dipshit.
The gods only appear to the culture into which they are conceived in, or which they were forced to accept. Basic religion 101. But OH NO! Personal revelation! Yes it sounds ridiculous because it IS ridiculous.....jebus, what twits.
Wasn't indoctrinated. Family wasn't actively religious. And I've repeatedly stated that no specific name was associated with it.
Thanks for playing asshat
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 07:48:01 AM
Wasn't indoctrinated. Family wasn't actively religious. And I've repeatedly stated that no specific name was associated with it.
Don't buy it. You openly lie anyway, nobody believes your blathering bullshit.,
Both our resident deceivers ignored a simple challenge. If they are not the same poster, they surely have the same m.o. Every time a fact cannot be shrugged away with the bible, it is ignored. The transparency is highly entertaining.
" As soon as you tell us how you come to the conclusion that Zeus and Mithra are not real, we can use your method to prove your god is not real either."
Simple enough you would think.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 07:39:06 AM
Personal revelation. As ridiculous as that may sound.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
You're right. That is ridiculous.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 07:39:06 AM
Personal revelation. As ridiculous as that may sound.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Fine.
If it's so personal, how, then, can it be shared?
You know the funny thing about personal revelation? It's not measurable, it's not quantifiable, it can't be observed, and it can't be manipulated. It is, scientifically, no more than speculation, fiction.
And about that faith--real faith, not the "atheist faith" you're trying to push on us. Jesus said that someone with the tiniest amount of faith could move mountains. Why don't we ever see these magic tricks now?
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 09:20:29 AM
You know the funny thing about personal revelation? It's not measurable, it's not quantifiable, it can't be observed, and it can't be manipulated. It is, scientifically, no more than speculation, fiction.
And about that faith--real faith, not the "atheist faith" you're trying to push on us. Jesus said that someone with the tiniest amount of faith could move mountains. Why don't we ever see these magic tricks now?
Personal revelation= schizophrenia
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
Pops--You say you use critical thinking, logic, and empirical evidence for your sole basis of knowledge. Commendable.
Mike--Thanks.
Pops--You say my Faith in GOD isn't similar to your belief that GOD does not exist. Yet neither can be proven empirically.
Mike--I don't have a belief that god does not exist. I know god(s) do not exist. I don't have any beliefs--I suppose you keep saying I have beliefs to piss me off, eh???
Pops--If we use logic we can hypothesize about the existence of GOD or the lack there of. I'm only going to use one example.
Mike--Actually, nobody can construct a hypothesis about god(s), because that means it would be testable. And your 'hypothesis' cannot be tested. You are simply making a guess.
Pops--Absolutely everything within observable existence can be explained using math. From the tiniest iota to the largest masses. Our DNA, nature, energy, galactic plotting, sound, literally everything is mathematically structured in one way or another.
Mike---Hmm....don't know that I would agree with that premise. But if you think that, then god(s) must be explainable by math, since you insist you have observed him.
pops--Using logic and critical thinking, is it more feasible that all existence, being mathematically decipherable, is the product of intelligent design?
Or is it more logical to assume that though all is mathematically decipherable, it happened by some grand happenstance?
Mike--Grand happenstance??? No. Design??? No. Intelligence driven? No. You are viewing the result of the development of this universe as it is now from the vantage point of hindsight. The universe and all within it, developed through physical laws. Are those laws are math driven (I suppose)--intelligence driven does not equate to natural law driven. Any specific point or place, though conforming to the physical laws that drives its creation, did not have to look exactly like our Earth does, or our solar system (look at all the thousands of solar systems we now know of--none looks exactly like ours), or anything else we know of. For example, if I were to step out into a rain storm, I will be rained on. And I will be hit by a first drop of water--from hindsight it would appear that that specific drop was predestined to he me. Not so--it was simply happenstance. Drops would hit me, but which ones in particular is purely chance and not driven by intelligent design.
pops--Damned illogical, gullible theists and their nonsense right?
Mike--Pops, that just about sums it up--you are correct.
Pops--Peace friend
Mike--Namaste
Pops--Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Mike--Lets make this world a better place, one human at a time.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 25, 2016, 03:07:47 PM
Hey Randy, Sorry for not being up to date with our discussions. You probably figured this out on your own, but I am in fact a high school student. Thus I have work that needs to be done before finals.
One question: What makes Catholicism different from other sects?
There is only one Body of Christ, the Church. Therefore,
anyone who is a member of the Body of Christ is actually a member of the Catholic Church even if they do not know this.A few distinctives:
1. Catholicism was founded by Jesus. Other sects were founded by men (e.g. Martin Luther, Henry VIII, John Calvin) who decided to split off from Catholicism (cf. Mt. 16:18-19) or invented from scratch (Mormonism).
2. Catholic apostolic succession can be traced all the way back to the apostles; its bishops and priest are validly ordained and can perform valid sacraments. Other sects cannot.
3. Catholicism has all seven sacraments instituted by Jesus (baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, marriage, Holy Orders (ordination of priests), Reconciliation/Confession, Anointing of the Sick). Other sects do not.
4. Catholicism teaches that the bread and wine consecrated at mass become the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Other sects believe that the Last Supper is purely symbolic. (cf. John 6)
5. The Catholic Church teaches doctrine infallibly; this means that the Church which speaks for God cannot
formally teach error when it binds the consciences of the people of God.
Bishop Robert Barron has hundreds of great videos on YouTube. Here is one:
What Gifts Does God Give the Catholic Church?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roum4zbJ8ZQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roum4zbJ8ZQ)
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 25, 2016, 07:21:28 PM
A lot of us are agnostics as well as atheists.
link (https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3209wr/eli5_the_difference_between_athiest_agnostic_and/)
For someone who who tries very hard to be seen as some sort of religious expert, this is a pretty basic (and telling) error.
From my notes:
ATHEISM â€" God does not exist.
Atheism literally means “without God†and can be divided into either strong or weak types.
Strong or positive atheism holds that God does not exist with certainty. Weak or negative atheism merely holds that there is not enough evidence to prove that God does exist.Another name for atheism is naturalism, or the view that only the natural world exists. Naturalists may admit that there are things in our universe we cannot detect (like particles that are smaller than atoms) or natural objects outside of our universe (like “multiversesâ€), but they deny the existence of a supernatural being that transcends nature. Atheism is also sometimes called materialism, or the belief that only matter exists, and therefore an immaterial being like God does not. But atheism is not the same thing as materialism, because some atheists believe in the existence of immaterial things that are not God (like minds or numbers).
Among the religiously unaffiliated is what sociologists Christian Smith and Melinda Denton call
moralistic therapeutic deism, which claims that:
1. God exists and watches over the world.
2. God wants people to be nice, and good people go to heaven.
3. God is not needed in life unless there is a problem he can solve, because the purpose of life is to be happy.
AGNOSTICISM â€" Cannot know or does not know if God exists.
Agnosticism (from gnosis, the Greek word for knowledge) is the position that a person cannot know if God exists.
A strong agnostic claims that no one is able to know whether God exists. A weak agnostic merely claims that while he doesn’t know if God exists, it is possible that someone else may know.
Agnosticism and weak atheism are similar in that both groups claim to be “without belief in God.â€+++
aitm claims to be a strong atheist
many here appear to be weak agnostics and weak atheists
widdershins claims to be an "apatheist" (he does not care)
Any disagreement with my understanding of these terms?
Quote from: Johan on May 25, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
Where? In the bible? That isn't evidence.
Nope.
In the OP's of my threads.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 12:08:05 AM
So you agree that your faith in God is as credible as another's faith in a shape-shifting lizard alien species that secretly owns the White House?
I wouldn't agree without examining the arguments and evidence.
And we both know that Christians have a boatload of arguments for God whereas you have bupkis for Obama being an alien (unless you know something about his birth certificate that the rest of us don't).
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 26, 2016, 09:54:14 AM
Any disagreement with my understanding of these terms?
We are all agnostics, including you, and we are all atheists, including you.
Agnostic, because none of us KNOWS if there is some sky daddy who runs the show. We are open enough to say we don't know. The evidence is overwhelmingly against such a proposition, but there is a possibility. You on the other hand pretend to KNOW, which of course is a fallacy. Nobody knows.
Atheists, because we have shown that you discard hundreds of monotheistic gods, like us.
We are still waiting for a criteria on how you can ignore all these deities. We would like to use your method for the last sun god also. And then you forgot the last group, which I count myself in. The Anti-theist. That entails the belief that your proposed deity is such a despicable monster in both books (plus the Koran) that even if such a deity would exist, we would be disgusted enough to reject it/him/her as amoral and toxic.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 24, 2016, 11:04:19 AM
Do you think that this situation is representative of all Christians?
Nice dodge!! Most of the bible thumper sects in Canada are happy to help MENNONITE BRETHREN ORGANIZED CRIME harass me.
How do you rationalize this campaign of harassment?
Or the Vatican cover -up child abuse for 100's of years?
Or Native Canadian children kidnapped, abused and tortured by "christians" for 100 yrs in the Residential School system?
:angry:
Quote from: marom1963 on May 26, 2016, 08:37:41 AM
Fine.
If it's so personal, how, then, can it be shared?
I don't mind sharing too much. I don't generally, because I don't care to center conversation around myself and my testimony is generally regarded by atheists as delusion or mental breakdown. If you are interested I will explain it to my ability. Just let me know.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 09:20:29 AM
You know the funny thing about personal revelation? It's not measurable, it's not quantifiable, it can't be observed, and it can't be manipulated. It is, scientifically, no more than speculation, fiction.
And about that faith--real faith, not the "atheist faith" you're trying to push on us. Jesus said that someone with the tiniest amount of faith could move mountains. Why don't we ever see these magic tricks now?
He didn't say the tiniest Faith.
I've been told my Faith is strong. But I know in my heart that it isn't of the level that the Christ was referring to.
Past that I cannot answer your question. I wouldn't take mountain to be literal though. More as an insurmountable obstacle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: aitm on May 26, 2016, 07:58:19 AM
Don't buy it. You openly lie anyway, nobody believes your blathering bullshit.,
Not selling anything.
What have I lied about since you want to accuse me of such?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 07:59:00 AM
Both our resident deceivers ignored a simple challenge. If they are not the same poster, they surely have the same m.o. Every time a fact cannot be shrugged away with the bible, it is ignored. The transparency is highly entertaining.
" As soon as you tell us how you come to the conclusion that Zeus and Mithra are not real, we can use your method to prove your god is not real either."
Simple enough you would think.
Look back at my posts over the last 24 hours. What questions of mine have been answered?
If that was directed towards me.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 26, 2016, 09:38:19 AM
Pops--You say you use critical thinking, logic, and empirical evidence for your sole basis of knowledge. Commendable.
Mike--Thanks.
Pops--You say my Faith in GOD isn't similar to your belief that GOD does not exist. Yet neither can be proven empirically.
Mike--I don't have a belief that god does not exist. I know god(s) do not exist. I don't have any beliefs--I suppose you keep saying I have beliefs to piss me off, eh???
Pops--If we use logic we can hypothesize about the existence of GOD or the lack there of. I'm only going to use one example.
Mike--Actually, nobody can construct a hypothesis about god(s), because that means it would be testable. And your 'hypothesis' cannot be tested. You are simply making a guess.
Pops--Absolutely everything within observable existence can be explained using math. From the tiniest iota to the largest masses. Our DNA, nature, energy, galactic plotting, sound, literally everything is mathematically structured in one way or another.
Mike---Hmm....don't know that I would agree with that premise. But if you think that, then god(s) must be explainable by math, since you insist you have observed him.
pops--Using logic and critical thinking, is it more feasible that all existence, being mathematically decipherable, is the product of intelligent design?
Or is it more logical to assume that though all is mathematically decipherable, it happened by some grand happenstance?
Mike--Grand happenstance??? No. Design??? No. Intelligence driven? No. You are viewing the result of the development of this universe as it is now from the vantage point of hindsight. The universe and all within it, developed through physical laws. Are those laws are math driven (I suppose)--intelligence driven does not equate to natural law driven. Any specific point or place, though conforming to the physical laws that drives its creation, did not have to look exactly like our Earth does, or our solar system (look at all the thousands of solar systems we now know of--none looks exactly like ours), or anything else we know of. For example, if I were to step out into a rain storm, I will be rained on. And I will be hit by a first drop of water--from hindsight it would appear that that specific drop was predestined to he me. Not so--it was simply happenstance. Drops would hit me, but which ones in particular is purely chance and not driven by intelligent design.
pops--Damned illogical, gullible theists and their nonsense right?
Mike--Pops, that just about sums it up--you are correct.
Pops--Peace friend
Mike--Namaste
Pops--Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Mike--Lets make this world a better place, one human at a time.
There is no coincidence. And you avoided my question.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:21:15 AM
Look back at my posts over the last 24 hours. What questions of mine have been answered?
If that was directed towards me.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
That means the apologist has been stumped.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 11:32:48 AM
That means the apologist has been stumped.
Zeus and mythra?
These are but names assigned to aspects that people understood to be real on some inner level. As I have stated; names for GOD are the product of man. Most often used to divide, subjugate, discriminate, and control others.
They are just names. Descriptors.
You won't here me tell you that there are no other gods. Just that all are subsidiary to the One Creator GOD. Different times and cultures have always added to the characteristics or attributes or likenesses of their perceivable God. For this reason; unbiased opened minded investigation should be employed by any honesty curious.
I let it be known when I'm stumped.
I didn't think you where serious is all.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:42:56 AM
Zeus and mythra?
These are but names assigned to aspects that people understood to be real on some inner level. As I have stated; names for GOD are the product of man. Most often used to divide, subjugate, discriminate, and control others.
Thank you! Now you have the answer why we don't buy into your cult. It's the same motive for thousands of years. Yours is just the latest sun god, it will go by the wayside as well.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:24:22 AM
There is no coincidence. And you avoided my question.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I avoided your question? My bad. What, exactly is that question?
And that is all there is--coincidence; happenstance; chance.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 09:32:22 AM
Personal revelation= schizophrenia
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
When you first understood, as an individual, that you could pick the boogers out of your nose ... that was schizoid?
Quote from: Baruch on May 26, 2016, 01:14:45 PM
When you first understood, as an individual, that you could pick the boogers out of your nose ... that was schizoid?
Only if my boogers would talk to me and I worship them.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 26, 2016, 12:05:48 PM
I avoided your question? My bad. What, exactly is that question?
And that is all there is--coincidence; happenstance; chance.
Using logic and critical thinking, is it more feasible that all existence, being mathematically decipherable, is the product of intelligent design?
Or is it more logical to assume that though all is mathematically decipherable, it happened by some grand happenstance?
Also, coincidence is also absolutely unprovable, yet here we see you have faith in that too.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Thank you! Now you have the answer why we don't buy into your cult. It's the same motive for thousands of years. Yours is just the latest sun god, it will go by the wayside as well.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
Nonsense.
My motives are of no negative thing whatsoever.
Least of which is any personal attainment in this existence or whatever may lie afterward.
Nor is the direction of any man truly striving to abide by the will of GOD.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Thank you! Now you have the answer why we don't buy into your cult. It's the same motive for thousands of years. Yours is just the latest sun god, it will go by the wayside as well.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
I was looking for no answer regarding such.
I know well why I was an atheist for over 20 years, and my reasons, being my own, are quite adequate.
If that was your reasoning then why did I have to write it for you to admit it?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 01:45:21 PM
Nonsense.
My motives are of no negative thing whatsoever.
Least of which is any personal attainment in this existence or whatever may lie afterward.
Nor is the direction of any man truly striving to abide by the will of GOD.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
popsthebuilder,
Is there a reason that you're not addressing my refutation to you in showing that you're an ignorant pseudo-christian relative to your bible? Are you embarrassed like Randy Carson, therefore, being silent upon your ignorance is better than trying in vain to address it? You're a dime-a-dozen pseudo-christian that knows deep down that when you cannot defend your faith, it proves that you're embarrassed about it!
Randy Carson and you are two peas in a pod! LOL
Just in case you want to try, the post you're RUNNING AWAY from is Reply #338 on: May 25, 2016, 08:23:56 PM, in this thread.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 26, 2016, 01:54:57 PM
popsthebuilder,
Is there a reason that you're not addressing my refutation to you in showing that you're an ignorant pseudo-christian relative to your bible? Are you embarrassed like Randy Carson, therefore, being silent upon your ignorance is better than trying in vain to address it? You're a dime-a-dozen pseudo-christian that knows deep down that when you cannot defend your faith, it proves that you're embarrassed about it!
Randy Carson and you are two peas in a pod! LOL
Just in case you want to try, the post you're RUNNING AWAY from is Reply #338 on: May 25, 2016, 08:23:56 PM, in this thread.
Interesting. I will review aforementioned post and reply.
Know that I haven't intentionally avoided anything.
I am on a phone using an app. I often miss posts.
My apologies.
Peace
Un momento me amigo
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 25, 2016, 08:23:56 PM
popsthebuilder,
YOUR IGNORANT QUOTE: "Please quote where Christ stated that the ot is infallible."
JESUS H. CHRIST, I thought there was no one as IGNORANT as your equally dumbfounded Randy Carson, but you prove without a doubt that you equal or surpass him! LOL
JESUS SAID: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18)
Has heaven and earth passed away yet? NO IT HAS NOT! Let me make this even simpler for you; With these words in Matthew 5:18 above, Jesus likened the continuance of the Mosaic Laws to the permanence of heaven and earth, which in turn, says the Old Testament is infallible!. This biblical axiom also discards your fallacious notion that there're only two commands! Furthermore, save yourself even further embarrassment and DO NOT posit that "all is accomplished" is regarding Jesus' death, it is not! It refers to your mythical Jesus on his Second Coming, get it? If you want to discuss this biblical FACT, then chain up and hang on!
"The words of the LORD are flawless" (Psalms 12:6)
"Your word, O LORD, is eternal, it stands firm" (Psalms 119:89)
"Every word of God is flawless" (Proverbs 30:5-6)
THINK, INFALLIBILITY IS NOT REGARDED AS QUALITIES OF YOUR BRONZE AND IRON AGE GOD, GET IT?
The next time you try in vain to defend your primitive bible, at least know a modicum of its content, okay?
The pseudo-christian like you is guilty of your own biblical doctrine, to wit: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." (2 Timothy 4:3)
UPDATE: popsthebuilder refuses to address this post, for obvious reasons, just like Randy Carson RUNS AWAY from biblical axioms that they didn't even know were in their primitive bibles. These two are spoon fed their doctrine through apologetics and the church on Sunday mornings, therefore they are both easy prey to biblical FACTS.
ATHEIST: 100
CHRISTIAN: 0
Okay... So you are saying the law is ineffable?
incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible:ineffable joy. 2. not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name of the deity.
I don't disagree. It isn't the law that changed but how we are aware of it.
I said the entirety of the law is accomplished if one adheres to the teachings of the Christ.
You put a lot of useless words into your post.
Was that it?
You say the law is ineffable. That's it.
I surely thought you had some challenge or question that would take some level of thought or consideration to answer.
I will look over your post again. Surely I missed some staggering point.
By the way; that was 339.
One more thing;
I never said I was a Christian. I strive to be faithful to the One Creator GOD. I do not hold Faith in any schism or denominational or religious division.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: reasonist on May 26, 2016, 10:08:53 AM
We are all agnostics, including you, and we are all atheists, including you.
Agnostic, because none of us KNOWS if there is some sky daddy who runs the show. We are open enough to say we don't know. The evidence is overwhelmingly against such a proposition, but there is a possibility. You on the other hand pretend to KNOW, which of course is a fallacy. Nobody knows.
Atheists, because we have shown that you discard hundreds of monotheistic gods, like us. We are still waiting for a criteria on how you can ignore all these deities. We would like to use your method for the last sun god also.
And then you forgot the last group, which I count myself in. The Anti-theist. That entails the belief that your proposed deity is such a despicable monster in both books (plus the Koran) that even if such a deity would exist, we would be disgusted enough to reject it/him/her as amoral and toxic.
Truth in Faithless Unity for Good
I have mentioned anti-theists in several of my posts. Search on that term if you don't believe me.
And if I have discounted "hundreds of montheistic gods" it is because while all of them could, possibly, be shown to be one and the same, I feel that Christianity is the fullest expression of monotheism.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:15:02 AM
I don't mind sharing too much. I don't generally, because I don't care to center conversation around myself and my testimony is generally regarded by atheists as delusion or mental breakdown. If you are interested I will explain it to my ability. Just let me know.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Exactly. Well said.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 02:10:04 PM
Okay... So you are saying the law is ineffable?
incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible:ineffable joy. 2. not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name of the deity.
I don't disagree. It isn't the law that changed but how we are aware of it.
I said the entirety of the law is accomplished if one adheres to the teachings of the Christ.
You put a lot of useless words into your post.
Was that it?
You say the law is ineffable. That's it.
I surely thought you had some challenge or question that would take some level of thought or consideration to answer.
I will look over your post again. Surely I missed some staggering point.
By the way; that was 339.
One more thing;
I never said I was a Christian. I strive to be faithful to the One Creator GOD. I do not hold Faith in any schism or denominational or religious division.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
He's a one-trick pony and tried the same misunderstood verse on me. I gave him solid explanations of why the New Covenant has abrogated the Old, but he's had fun with this "You're not living under the law, you hypocrite Christians" argument over the years, and he would hate to lose it now.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 26, 2016, 02:52:16 PM
He's a one-trick pony and tried the same misunderstood verse on me. I gave him solid explanations of why the New Covenant has abrogated the Old, but he's had fun with this "You're not living under the law, you hypocrite Christians" argument over the years, and he would hate to lose it now.
And you sir. You are a practicing Catholic?
I said some things in reference to the principalities of the ancient RCC. Now is as good a time as any to clarify that though I feel that many atrocities and much intentional misdirection originally stemmed from these principalities, I in no way hold any contempt or derision towards any practicing Catholic. The fact that you can hold on to your faith even through all the things that have been erroneously acted out by the universal church in the past speaks exponentially for your perseverance.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I meant no disrespect towards you or your denomination. A small smile cracked when I read your statement that all faithful are indeed Catholic. Might all conclude such in due time by the will of GOD through mercy and grace.
Peace friend
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 03:07:49 PM
And you sir. You are a practicing Catholic?
I said some things in reference to the principalities of the ancient RCC. Now is as good a time as any to clarify that though I feel that many atrocities and much intentional misdirection originally stemmed from these principalities, I in no way hold any contempt or derision towards any practicing Catholic. The fact that you can hold on to your faith even through all the things that have been erroneously acted out by the universal church in the past speaks exponentially for your perseverance.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I meant no disrespect towards you or your denomination. A small smile cracked when I read your statement that all faithful are indeed Catholic. Might all conclude such in due time by the will of GOD through mercy and grace.
Peace friend
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Jesus only has
one body and only promised to build
one Church. (cf. Mt. 16:18-19)
It will all become clear to us in the end.
Peace.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
He didn't say the tiniest Faith.
I've been told my Faith is strong. But I know in my heart that it isn't of the level that the Christ was referring to.
Past that I cannot answer your question. I wouldn't take mountain to be literal though. More as an insurmountable obstacle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
You didn't even bother to look it up...
Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 26, 2016, 02:45:58 PM
I have mentioned anti-theists in several of my posts. Search on that term if you don't believe me.
And if I have discounted "hundreds of montheistic gods" it is because while all of them could, possibly, be shown to be one and the same, I feel that Christianity is the fullest expression of monotheism.
Oh well, if you FEEL it, then of course it must be true!
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 03:23:10 PM
You didn't even bother to look it up...
Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Matthew 17 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
20: And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mustard seed doesn't exactly mean small. As what comes from a seed is a plant and this plant produces more seed which in turn produces more plants. I didn't look it up initially. That was my short coming. I will be certain to pay more attention to your posts and I do apologize for not giving you an adequate answer.
Matthew 17 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
17: Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
We see here that the Christ accused his disciples of being without any Faith and being with perversion. If these men weren't of ample Faith or purity then there is little question as to why none today can move a mountain or clear a grand obstacle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 02:10:04 PM
Okay... So you are saying the law is ineffable?
incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible:ineffable joy. 2. not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name of the deity.
I don't disagree. It isn't the law that changed but how we are aware of it.
I said the entirety of the law is accomplished if one adheres to the teachings of the Christ.
You put a lot of useless words into your post.
Was that it?
You say the law is ineffable. That's it.
I surely thought you had some challenge or question that would take some level of thought or consideration to answer.
I will look over your post again. Surely I missed some staggering point.
By the way; that was 339.
One more thing;
I never said I was a Christian. I strive to be faithful to the One Creator GOD. I do not hold Faith in any schism or denominational or religious division.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
popsthebuilder,
YOUR QUOTE: "I never said I was a Christian. I strive to be faithful to the One Creator GOD. I do not hold Faith in any schism or denominational or religious division."
Well, why didn't' you say that you believe in ZEUS in the first place, knowing that he is the KING OF ALL GODS because his writings about him say so in the same vein as what the writings of Yahweh preclude about him? This changes the whole picture for your future posts, doesn't it?
I love it when god believers finally come out of the closet in this respect and actually choose one of the gods in the BCE , and good for you in never believing in the WEAK Yahweh god of the Christians that allows his own creation to kill him! Besides, how can a god die? LOL
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 03:31:09 PM
Matthew 17 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
20: And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mustard seed doesn't exactly mean small. As what comes from a seed is a plant and this plant produces more seed which in turn produces more plants. I didn't look it up initially. That was my short coming. I will be certain to pay more attention to your posts and I do apologize for not giving you an adequate answer.
Matthew 17 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
17: Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
We see here that the Christ accused his disciples of being without any Faith and being with perversion. If these men weren't of ample Faith or purity then there is little question as to why none today can move a mountain or clear a grand obstacle.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as
small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Jesus used the "mustard seed" as a comparison because it is an incredibly tiny seed. We see here that Jesus claims that with ANY amount of faith, you can perform miracles like moving a mountain with your voice. You're contorting yourself to try to justify your notions with this verse.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 26, 2016, 05:55:47 PM
Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Jesus used the "mustard seed" as a comparison because it is an incredibly tiny seed. We see here that Jesus claims that with ANY amount of faith, you can perform miracles like moving a mountain with your voice. You're contorting yourself to try to justify your notions with this verse.
If it meant little faith was enough, then it wouldn't say so little Faith is the reason they couldn't heal the man's son.
The reference to a mustard seed is made often in scripture. It is never used solely as a reference for a finite amount. If it referred to the weight of a grain of a mustard seed then yes.
Matthew 13 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
31: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
32: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mark 4 (KJV) - ማáˆá‰†áˆµ
31: It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
I'm not a contortionist.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 26, 2016, 05:26:20 PM
popsthebuilder,
YOUR QUOTE: "I never said I was a Christian. I strive to be faithful to the One Creator GOD. I do not hold Faith in any schism or denominational or religious division."
Well, why didn't' you say that you believe in ZEUS in the first place, knowing that he is the KING OF ALL GODS because his writings about him say so in the same vein as what the writings of Yahweh preclude about him? This changes the whole picture for your future posts, doesn't it?
I love it when god believers finally come out of the closet in this respect and actually choose one of the gods in the BCE , and good for you in never believing in the WEAK Yahweh god of the Christians that allows his own creation to kill him! Besides, how can a god die? LOL
Are you now conflating Yah with Christ?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 26, 2016, 02:45:58 PM
I have mentioned anti-theists in several of my posts. Search on that term if you don't believe me.
And if I have discounted "hundreds of montheistic gods" it is because while all of them could, possibly, be shown to be one and the same, I feel that Christianity is the fullest expression of monotheism.
Tell that to Pharaoh Akenaten, you non-Aten worshipping heretic ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 26, 2016, 10:42:43 PM
Tell that to Pharaoh Akenaten, you non-Aten worshipping heretic ;-)
Did you ever see the "Swords and Sandals" epic "The Egyptian?"
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 06:16:43 PM
If it meant little faith was enough, then it wouldn't say so little Faith is the reason they couldn't heal the man's son.
The reference to a mustard seed is made often in scripture. It is never used solely as a reference for a finite amount. If it referred to the weight of a grain of a mustard seed then yes.
Matthew 13 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
31: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13 (KJV) - ማቴዎስ
32: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Mark 4 (KJV) - ማáˆá‰†áˆµ
31: It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
I'm not a contortionist.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Fine then. How does your faith stack up to the faith of the mustard seed? Is your faith pathetically small? Given your responses here, it could go either way. Either you are here because arguing with people who disagree with you validates your faith, or your faith has such a solid grip on you that you are unable to grasp concepts that run contrary to your beliefs. Maybe both.
Is your faith growing like a mustard seed, becoming a tree with wide branches? Or is it dying? After all, if something is not growing, it has to be dying.
If your faith is small and dying, then see you again when you've lost it. If it's big and growing, then where are the miracles? Where are your moving mountains?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 06:18:28 PM
Are you now conflating Yah with Christ?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
pops,
Let me try and make it simpler for you, okay? Lets cut to the chase and you pick which BCE god in the list below you supplicate too, okay? Then we'll go from there, agreed?
Pick your god out of this list and if I left one out, please tell me:
Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Jesus, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 26, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
I wouldn't take mountain to be literal though. More as an insurmountable obstacle.
Ok so let's see.
Moving mountains = metaphor
Marrying the virgin you rape = metaphor
All the shit about how to treat your slaves = metaphor
Don't be gay = literal
Got it.
:signgoodjob:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEAirCOyCXw
This is more for Pops than the rest of you ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2016, 12:41:56 AM
Fine then. How does your faith stack up to the faith of the mustard seed? Is your faith pathetically small? Given your responses here, it could go either way. Either you are here because arguing with people who disagree with you validates your faith, or your faith has such a solid grip on you that you are unable to grasp concepts that run contrary to your beliefs. Maybe both.
Is your faith growing like a mustard seed, becoming a tree with wide branches? Or is it dying? After all, if something is not growing, it has to be dying.
If your faith is small and dying, then see you again when you've lost it. If it's big and growing, then where are the miracles? Where are your moving mountains?
It's growing. Slowly, and not without trials. But I am thankful for all of it. Talking with others doesn't weaken it.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 27, 2016, 12:56:31 AM
pops,
Let me try and make it simpler for you, okay? Lets cut to the chase and you pick which BCE god in the list below you supplicate too, okay? Then we'll go from there, agreed?
Pick your god out of this list and if I left one out, please tell me:
Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Jesus, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama.
I already told you; I do not subscribe to the belief that there is a singular name for the One Creator GOD.
Indeed there are many acceptable terms and what one chooses to refer to GOD as is up to them, as It is also their prerogative of they so choose to praise other gods as long as they understand all are subsidiary to the One Creator GOD.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Johan on May 27, 2016, 06:41:08 AM
Ok so let's see.
Moving mountains = metaphor
Marrying the virgin you rape = metaphor
All the shit about how to treat your slaves = metaphor
Don't be gay = literal
Got it.
:signgoodjob:
Lol
By the way, rape of a betrothed woman was punishable by death. Consensual unlawful sex between two that weren't previously set to be wed was punishable by payment to the woman's father and marriage to the woman as the virgin was thought of as the fathers possession and being not a virgin brought the value of that property to nothing. They were also made to pay because of the dishonor it brought.
I do not agree with these terms. Just explaining them.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Henotheism doesn't equal monotheism. In Henotheism they worship female chickens, in Monotheism they worship a particular virus ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 06:47:30 AM
It's growing. Slowly, and not without trials. But I am thankful for all of it. Talking with others doesn't weaken it.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Can you perform miracles?
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2016, 09:26:01 AM
Can you perform miracles?
Never tried. Not so vain.
If I was ever without fault, then, maybe, I could but hope, but to even contemplate such at this point in my knowing internal misdirection is utter vanity.
I ask that we change the subject.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
Never tried. Not so vain.
If I was ever without fault, then, maybe, I could but hope, but to even contemplate such at this point in my knowing internal misdirection is utter vanity.
I ask that we change the subject.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Oh ye of little faith.
Acts 2:17-18"In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy."Are we not living in the last days? Where are all of these miracles that God promised? Didn't he pour out his spirit on the day of Pentecost, and haven't believers had access to the Holy Spirit and his power ever since? These lack of miracles point to these simple truths: There is no god, there is no spirit, there are no miracles, and the Bible is false.
Pops--it seems you think I avoided a question. What one was that???
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Oh ye of little faith.
Acts 2:17-18
"In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy."
Are we not living in the last days? Where are all of these miracles that God promised? Didn't he pour out his spirit on the day of Pentecost, and haven't believers had access to the Holy Spirit and his power ever since? These lack of miracles point to these simple truths: There is no god, there is no spirit, there are no miracles, and the Bible is false.
Never said those things don't happen. Only stated that to act as if I made them happen, or to speak of them in my current erroneous state is wrong.
Speaking of partial truths due to lack of utter direction is, to me, equal to speaking falsely.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 27, 2016, 10:45:50 AM
Pops--it seems you think I avoided a question. What one was that???
402
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 11:55:44 AM
402
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I've never used 402---I used 409, and it worked for me, so I did not change.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 06:52:05 AMBy the way, rape of a betrothed woman was punishable by death.
Yep. And the punishment for raping a woman who wasn't engaged was just a fine. You know, no big deal. (Well, that and mandatory marriage. Marrying your rapist - surely the key to marital bliss.) And raping a virgin girl during war, God apparently didn't see anything wrong with that. Completely coincidentally, neither did the people who penned God's Word.
Quite the fascinating moral code, eh?
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 06:51:37 AM
I already told you; I do not subscribe to the belief that there is a singular name for the One Creator GOD.
Indeed there are many acceptable terms and what one chooses to refer to GOD as is up to them, as It is also their prerogative of they so choose to praise other gods as long as they understand all are subsidiary to the One Creator GOD.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
popsthebuilder,
Semantics and your continuing embarrassment aside, where does your version of a god concept reside? Does your primitive example of god have a book written about him/her? Yes? Remember, ZEUS rules all gods because in the same vein as the other gods, his writings about him say so.
Listen, if you're that embarrassed to say where your god concept resides, then it is understandable, okay? We're used to Randy Carson RUNNING AWAY as well to simple questions, so may as well add you to the list of RUNNERS.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2016, 03:16:45 PM
Yep. And the punishment for raping a woman who wasn't engaged was just a fine. You know, no big deal. And raping a virgin girl during war, God apparently didn't see anything wrong with that. Completely coincidentally, neither did the people who penned God's Word.
Quite the fascinating moral code, eh?
You have to give them a break. They hadn't developed yet. Randy was arguing along those lines yesterday. Where is he today? He was tireless yesterday. Has he given up? We need a punching bag? Next!
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 27, 2016, 03:02:24 PM
I've never used 402---I used 409, and it worked for me, so I did not change.
Lol. The original motor is cool.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2016, 03:16:45 PM
Yep. And the punishment for raping a woman who wasn't engaged was just a fine. You know, no big deal. (Well, that and mandatory marriage. Marrying your rapist - surely the key to marital bliss.) And raping a virgin girl during war, God apparently didn't see anything wrong with that. Completely coincidentally, neither did the people who penned God's Word.
Quite the fascinating moral code, eh?
The ones you mention don't justify rape. That is a common, relatively obvious, misconception.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 27, 2016, 03:18:06 PM
popsthebuilder,
Semantics and your continuing embarrassment aside, where does your version of a god concept reside? Does your primitive example of god have a book written about him/her? Yes? Remember, ZEUS rules all gods because in the same vein as the other gods, his writings about him say so.
Listen, if you're that embarrassed to say where your god concept resides, then it is understandable, okay? We're used to Randy Carson RUNNING AWAY as well to simple questions, so may as well add you to the list of RUNNERS.
I have no interest in running from anything.
The way you word it makes it seem like, well, a concept. To me it isn't a mere concept, but regardless; I guess you're asking where in religious writings I find similarities to what I feel to be descriptive of the characteristics of GOD.
This isn't going to be an exhaustive list as I am no where near done studying but in no particular order;
The book of Enoch, the Qur'an, the Bible, the epistles of Barnaas, the sheperp of Hermas, the bhagavad Gita, the writings of the Bahia Faith, the Torah, Clement of Rome, Clement 2. I'm sure there are more that I can't think of. The concept isn't derived or limited to said texts, but some things I have read in these ring exponentially true on an inner most level and relate very closely to what uhm...I witnessed. There too are a few cases namely in the Torah/ot, that do not set well though, and also obvious additions in the translated versions of the bible, Qur'an, and other writings that are within parenthesis, brackets, and tiny crucifixes that aren't right. It's like they look like they where added for clarification but actually only work to confuse or lead astray.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 05:06:21 PMThe ones you mention don't justify rape. That is a common, relatively obvious, misconception.
You think so? One would expect a slightly harsher set of punishments for rape from a people who actually opposed it, like modern, civilized people do. Instead we find a system of law where rape is sometimes completely legal or a minor crime. And this from the ultimate lawgiver, according to some people.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2016, 06:17:10 PM
You think so? One would expect a slightly harsher set of punishments for rape from a people who actually opposed it, like modern, civilized people do. Instead we find a system of law where rape is sometimes completely legal or a minor crime. And this from the ultimate lawgiver, according to some people.
I'm pretty sure the only one that expressly mentions rape is the one that the man alone is killed for the act and the woman isn't supposed to be punished. Of course, those where for a different people and time anyway, as women aren't anyone's property and don't face the same dangers at the same levels by being alone as they perhaps once did.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 07:23:45 PM
those where for a different people and time anyway,
So women are different now than they were then. But not gay people. Got it. :signgoodjob:
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 07:23:45 PMOf course, those where for a different people and time anyway
Exactly, this is clearly a morality and legal code of a different age. That was then, this is now. And if this stuff stayed in the past where it belongs, that'd be fine. But it doesn't stay in the past. Bafflingly, this antiquated morality is still held in high regard and spread far and wide as if it were some sort of wisdom from on high:
(http://i.imgur.com/di0EnB8.jpg)
This is not the way forward.
Quote from: Johan on May 27, 2016, 08:18:51 PM
So women are different now than they were then. But not gay people. Got it. :signgoodjob:
What do you mean?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 27, 2016, 08:47:29 PM
Exactly, this is clearly a morality and legal code of a different age. That was then, this is now. And if this stuff stayed in the past where it belongs, that'd be fine. But it doesn't stay in the past. Bafflingly, this antiquated morality is still held in high regard and spread far and wide as if it were some sort of wisdom from on high:
(http://i.imgur.com/di0EnB8.jpg)
This is not the way forward.
Who is that?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 09:17:10 PM
Who is that?
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I'm guessing you're not much of a fan of the recent Christian movie trend. Good for you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 27, 2016, 09:18:16 PM
I'm guessing you're not much of a fan of the recent Christian movie trend. Good for you.
Don't watch too much tv these days. A lot of people get info from movies and media as if there is truth in it. And there may be in cases. But generally the media seams to steer people towards there own motives. Past that I never really tried to get into a religious movie. I don't know if it's because of my previous atheism or what. It just doesn't really interest me. Maybe I'll try one eventually if and when I can.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 09:25:18 PM
Don't watch too much tv these days. A lot of people get info from movies and media as if there is truth in it. And there may be in cases. But generally the media seams to steer people towards there own motives. Past that I never really tried to get into a religious movie. I don't know if it's because of my previous atheism or what. It just doesn't really interest me. Maybe I'll try one eventually if and when I can.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
The man in the pictures is Kirk Cameron. He's a popular face in these godawful Christian movies. Even when I was a Christian, I saw his movies as lame and pretentious. But if you would like a taste of the Cameron, watch a IHE review of one. It's shorter, funnier, and overall a much better way to spend your time.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 09:25:18 PMDon't watch too much tv these days. A lot of people get info from movies and media as if there is truth in it.
You mean documentaries? Cause otherwise, you're talking about fiction. Religion aside, people generally don't consider fictional stories to be an accurate depiction of reality.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
Never tried. Not so vain.
If I was ever without fault, then, maybe, I could but hope, but to even contemplate such at this point in my knowing internal misdirection is utter vanity.
I ask that we change the subject.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
People who don't believe in miracles, include believers and non-believers. Both sides mis-identify what a miracle is, so that they can both avoid it. Has nothing to do with suspending physical law. Has to be something supernatural, not natural. But miracles are perfectly natural, everyday things. So Pops ... you don't have to be faultless to defy physical law. Getting out of your chair and walking around defies gravity. Someone at an Ensalen retreat once asked Dr Feynman, when in the future will we have anti-gravity machines? He replied, you already do, they are called chairs ;-) The idea comes from scripture, that miracles were just happening all over, because Jesus was perfect. That is perfectly bad theology. Star Trek is perfectly bad science fiction too, just as the Bible is perfectly bad history.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 27, 2016, 09:15:45 PM
What do you mean?
Well according to you, this no longer applies because people and time are different now:
QuoteIf a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
So yeah you know, people have changed. They're different now. So there is no need to require your daughter's rapist to marry her. Its a different time you see.
But then we get to this verse and suddenly all that "its a different time" shit goes right out the fucking window:
QuoteThou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination
Being required to marry the guy who raped you? Ah, it was a different time. What? We were younger then, we didn't know any better. I'm assuming its the same when it comes to things like working on Sunday and shaving your beard and not covering your head and eating shell fish. What? It was a different time. So we were wrong? So what?
But being gay? Nope. We hit that one square on the head. Just as valid now as it was when marry your rapist crowd wrote it. Funny how that works huh'.
Yes, we need time travel, so we can go back into the past to kill all our ancestors because of their many crimes ... thereby creating a temporal contradiction, that requires Arnold to untangle ;-)
https://vimeo.com/167796382
This is why Randy shouldn't consider himself stumped, because he is a stump.
Quote from: Baruch on May 28, 2016, 02:22:22 AM
People who don't believe in miracles, include believers and non-believers. Both sides mis-identify what a miracle is, so that they can both avoid it. Has nothing to do with suspending physical law. Has to be something supernatural, not natural. But miracles are perfectly natural, everyday things.
Can you identify a miracle for us? I think I know where you are going with this but would like to read it from you.
thks
Quote from: reasonist on May 28, 2016, 09:29:51 AM
Can you identify a miracle for us? I think I know where you are going with this but would like to read it from you.
thks
It is the usual problem with people and language and rhetoric. Straw men on fire. But old straw men are harder to notice. If you define reality as natural (not a bad assumption if you have to make one) and by natural you mean not supernatural (and we will ignore the ontology that those words can't exist in isolation, they are a dualism) ... then any fact that can be presented, either has no miracle in it, or if we understand it someday, there is no miracle in it. Compare what we believed before we knew about DNA vs after. Before we knew about DNA, it was reasonable to assume that there was something natural going on, and that we would know what it was someday ... and we did!
But this is all based on particular assumptions and rationalizations (more than deductions, because we aren't talking math). Not bad things in themselves. But what if you are defining your terms all wrong. What if your definition allows square circles? Approximately, if I remember right, certain kinds on non-Euclidean geometry allow square circles ... the disconnect comes from using Euclidean terms in non-Euclidean situations ... poor jargon, and not being context-sensitive.
So when I say "miracle" and you say "miracle" we aren't saying the same thing, though we are using the same word ... unless I am deliberately using the word the same way you are (and I know enough to do that). By natural, most lay people mean materialism and Newtonian mechanics ... which as you probably know, are obsolete, though still commonly used, because they are useful in most situations. Materialism doesn't work in EM theory or QM theory. Matter is mostly empty space (or all empty space) and there are forms of energy that are not material (like EM and Dark Energy and Dark Matter too). Newtonian mechanics works for almost all engineering. But neither are true. In fact, we don't even know how to define truth (hence philosophy and Socrates' annoying questions to people who think they know something). Maybe we know what a fact is, but that isn't the same as truth. Again, for some people, we can assume that eventually science will give us exact knowledge about everything, there will be no further gaps for G-d to hide in. But the idea that G-d is hiding is the result of an assumption. And Socrates also said an unexamined life (where you don't realize your own assumptions) is not a life worth living (hence he chose death and integrity over life and corruption). So on a pragmatic level, science gives us pragmatic assistance, and that is good enough. When I did electrical engineering, I didn't need all of EM theory, let alone Relativity or QM theory. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
So if I choose, rhetorically, to not define natural/supernatural like Thales/Pythagoras, but like Heraclitus/Xenophanes ... then I will see the same ship sailing the Aegean, but my experience will be different. Homer sails on a different "wine dark sea" than Heraclitus. A cultural difference that underlies a language difference. My culture is different than when I was younger, and different from most people who post here. Now some will oppose any difference in culture or individual personality, as something non-objective aka subjective. But I see no problem with this. Some things, facts, we can agree on, like how many coins I have in my right hand, by examination by you and me at the same place and time. Other things aren't factual, because we can't agree in principle, not just in practice. Our non-agreement on one thing is driven by non-agreements on many other things.
So when I move my hand to type this, I see the image of G-d, typing. That isn't what you experience. My experience isn't a fact in this case, but then neither is yours (except the ego always denies this, we are partly solipsists). We can agree on how many fingers I have on my right hand if you were here, but that is about all we could agree to. People individually and culturally are the same yet different and partially isolated from each other. Our lack of isolation, our lack of difference, is reflected in what we can agree on, and the language we are using to communicate.
Of course this passes over into what we choose to do with our time. We share time as a community here, with visitors vs regulars. But I am probably the only person on the planet, who is struggling to articulate my ontology (metaphysics) and wants to use the original language used to think about that (ancient Greek). It isn't possible to be Japanese except in the Japanese Matrix for example. I find the more I think about these fundamental questions, the more I am drawn to ancient Greece, and the day in 1983 when I wandered around the Athenian agora looking for where Socrates gave up his unique spirit to Charon and Hades. Today I have an "obol", a small silver coin, specifically one from the classical period of Athens. When a person died, they put an obol in one's mouth, to pay "the ferryman". Three of those same "obols" were used to pay each juror, including those who judged Socrates. And that commonality, is a material thing, that immaterially ties me across the ages, to two days in 399 BCE.
Thank you Baruch, very informative. Learned a new angle to an old question. Don't have time right now for a response.
Your definition of the (super)natural was certainly educational. While I don't share your point of view entirely, much of what you wrote seems plausible from a rational cognitive aspect. Personally, I don't subscribe to any kind of metaphysics, it's just not empirical enough for me, much to much speculation and assumption. Maybe I don't see the grey, only the black and white but as a pragmatic, anything can be explained as originating from the human mind. For me, a Hubble picture of a far away galaxy is more awe inspiring to me than any deity for example. Finding recently the first amino acid (Glycine) in the dust cloud of comet 'Tschuri' ever, along with phosphorus, the backbone of DNA, gives validation to the concept that all life comes from other parts of the universe, and did not originate on earth. That to me is more fascinating than any deistic or theistic explanation. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't need a first cause explanation. The universe just IS, no plans, no reason, no beginning and no end. I accept that we are not the center of the universe, much less that a deity is concerned about our way of life. As a very temporary species on a lonely planet in the middle of billions of solar systems within billions of galaxies, I can't find enough hubris to believe that we are somewhat special or superior to the other 8 million species on this planet.
Quote from: reasonist on May 29, 2016, 03:01:13 PM
Your definition of the (super)natural was certainly educational. While I don't share your point of view entirely, much of what you wrote seems plausible from a rational cognitive aspect. Personally, I don't subscribe to any kind of metaphysics, it's just not empirical enough for me, much to much speculation and assumption. Maybe I don't see the grey, only the black and white but as a pragmatic, anything can be explained as originating from the human mind. For me, a Hubble picture of a far away galaxy is more awe inspiring to me than any deity for example. Finding recently the first amino acid (Glycine) in the dust cloud of comet 'Tschuri' ever, along with phosphorus, the backbone of DNA, gives validation to the concept that all life comes from other parts of the universe, and did not originate on earth. That to me is more fascinating than any deistic or theistic explanation. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't need a first cause explanation. The universe just IS, no plans, no reason, no beginning and no end. I accept that we are not the center of the universe, much less that a deity is concerned about our way of life. As a very temporary species on a lonely planet in the middle of billions of solar systems within billions of galaxies, I can't find enough hubris to believe that we are somewhat special or superior to the other 8 million species on this planet.
Thank you.
Quote from: reasonist on May 29, 2016, 03:01:13 PM
Your definition of the (super)natural was certainly educational. While I don't share your point of view entirely, much of what you wrote seems plausible from a rational cognitive aspect. Personally, I don't subscribe to any kind of metaphysics, it's just not empirical enough for me, much to much speculation and assumption. Maybe I don't see the grey, only the black and white but as a pragmatic, anything can be explained as originating from the human mind. For me, a Hubble picture of a far away galaxy is more awe inspiring to me than any deity for example. Finding recently the first amino acid (Glycine) in the dust cloud of comet 'Tschuri' ever, along with phosphorus, the backbone of DNA, gives validation to the concept that all life comes from other parts of the universe, and did not originate on earth. That to me is more fascinating than any deistic or theistic explanation. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't need a first cause explanation. The universe just IS, no plans, no reason, no beginning and no end. I accept that we are not the center of the universe, much less that a deity is concerned about our way of life. As a very temporary species on a lonely planet in the middle of billions of solar systems within billions of galaxies, I can't find enough hubris to believe that we are somewhat special or superior to the other 8 million species on this planet.
Careful about projection ... if referring to me. I don't happen to care how many species there are. I suspect that the human species is inferior, not superior ;-( On the other hand, I am chauvinist about humans, so I will allow a person to eat an alligator, but not allow an alligator to eat a person. Speciesism, even for vegetarians, is a self contradiction. I don't need to know where where the universe comes from, or where it is going, it is axiomatic that I am here and now. I wasn't talking about the use of deity as an explanatory device, there is to much desire to support or reject explanations. I am even having a hard time explaining myself right here ;-) I see what I see, according to my psychology. Some people think they are so objective, that they are free of their own psychology. Some will claim their psychology is superior, and some of them are theists and some of them are atheists, but they are all egotists ;-) On a sphere, every point is the center of the surface. So yes, every human being, as a subset, is the center of the universe. There just happens to be an infinity of centers, not just one. And yes, the Earth isn't special, aside from that is where we both live. I see no reason to denigrate the Earth relative to the rest of the universe, or to denigrate humans relative to other species (aside from rhetoric). People may choose to minimize metaphysics ... I do so myself. I don't like complicated systems. But deductively, you can't be completely free of metaphysics, because you have to define your terms, otherwise be mute. Unfortunately, definition is always self-referential. Naturalists do tend to be turned on by views of nature ... I do. But humans are just more interesting to me. Some people are like Thales, others are like Socrates. It is Greek to me ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 30, 2016, 01:47:44 AM
Careful about projection ... if referring to me. I don't happen to care how many species there are. I suspect that the human species is inferior, not superior ;-( On the other hand, I am chauvinist about humans, so I will allow a person to eat an alligator, but not allow an alligator to eat a person. Speciesism, even for vegetarians, is a self contradiction. I don't need to know where where the universe comes from, or where it is going, it is axiomatic that I am here and now. I wasn't talking about the use of deity as an explanatory device, there is to much desire to support or reject explanations. I am even having a hard time explaining myself right here ;-) I see what I see, according to my psychology. Some people think they are so objective, that they are free of their own psychology. Some will claim their psychology is superior, and some of them are theists and some of them are atheists, but they are all egotists ;-) On a sphere, every point is the center of the surface. So yes, every human being, as a subset, is the center of the universe. There just happens to be an infinity of centers, not just one. And yes, the Earth isn't special, aside from that is where we both live. I see no reason to denigrate the Earth relative to the rest of the universe, or to denigrate humans relative to other species (aside from rhetoric). People may choose to minimize metaphysics ... I do so myself. I don't like complicated systems. But deductively, you can't be completely free of metaphysics, because you have to define your terms, otherwise be mute. Unfortunately, definition is always self-referential. Naturalists do tend to be turned on by views of nature ... I do. But humans are just more interesting to me. Some people are like Thales, others are like Socrates. It is Greek to me ;-)
The human species has acted more like a virus than anything else, throwing the whole system out of balance ... The denigration of mankind comes in w/the absolute hubris that characterizes so many. Even in the stupid movies that are made, advanced civilizations that come here to Earth are defeated by us just because - well, we're - us! Nonsense. A civilization that could get here from elsewhere could easily defeat anything that we threw at it. We wouldn't even be child's play to them ... Yes, every point is the center of the Universe. Newton made that clear, if I am not mistaken. I think it was Newton. That's an argument for humility - not hubris.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 30, 2016, 06:35:08 AM
The human species has acted more like a virus than anything else, throwing the whole system out of balance ... The denigration of mankind comes in w/the absolute hubris that characterizes so many. Even in the stupid movies that are made, advanced civilizations that come here to Earth are defeated by us just because - well, we're - us! Nonsense. A civilization that could get here from elsewhere could easily defeat anything that we threw at it. We wouldn't even be child's play to them ... Yes, every point is the center of the Universe. Newton made that clear, if I am not mistaken. I think it was Newton. That's an argument for humility - not hubris.
Yes, Newton ... if not Bruno. Humans aren't just hubris (arrogance), but arete (excellence). Depends on how you throw your monkey poo.
Quote from: Baruch on May 30, 2016, 01:47:44 AM
Careful about projection ... if referring to me. I don't happen to care how many species there are. I suspect that the human species is inferior, not superior ;-( On the other hand, I am chauvinist about humans, so I will allow a person to eat an alligator, but not allow an alligator to eat a person. Speciesism, even for vegetarians, is a self contradiction. I don't need to know where where the universe comes from, or where it is going, it is axiomatic that I am here and now. I wasn't talking about the use of deity as an explanatory device, there is to much desire to support or reject explanations. I am even having a hard time explaining myself right here ;-) I see what I see, according to my psychology. Some people think they are so objective, that they are free of their own psychology. Some will claim their psychology is superior, and some of them are theists and some of them are atheists, but they are all egotists ;-) On a sphere, every point is the center of the surface. So yes, every human being, as a subset, is the center of the universe. There just happens to be an infinity of centers, not just one. And yes, the Earth isn't special, aside from that is where we both live. I see no reason to denigrate the Earth relative to the rest of the universe, or to denigrate humans relative to other species (aside from rhetoric). People may choose to minimize metaphysics ... I do so myself. I don't like complicated systems. But deductively, you can't be completely free of metaphysics, because you have to define your terms, otherwise be mute. Unfortunately, definition is always self-referential. Naturalists do tend to be turned on by views of nature ... I do. But humans are just more interesting to me. Some people are like Thales, others are like Socrates. It is Greek to me ;-)
I had no intention to project anything on anybody. I am here to have a honest discussion with not only fellow non believers but also theists like you. I like to learn from other people's mindset, unfortunately nothing can be learned from people like Randy Carson.
I DO care about species on this planet because we are part of this 'system' and not separate entities. Far be it for me to denigrate either our home planet nor our species. No reason to elevate or denigrate. We are just part of the whole and a insignificant part at that. As soon as our species has died out, earth will recover and the show begins anew. I have come to terms with the fact that we are too stupid to inhabit this planet responsibly to leave a clean, peaceful and sustainable place for generations to come. Religion is just one of the many obstacles we face; greed and power are others. Realizing that requires humility, not generalizations. Hubris is exactly what has held us back and ignorance is it's ugly cousin. As long as we believe to be the crowning achievement of a creator, we cannot be objective and humble. One excludes the other.
The definition of terms you mention is a completely human and arbitrary concept. Space and time expressed in numbers is taken from planetary movement and split into fractions. It is the only way we can express what is and what could be in the future.
I am not here to preach or to pry, my only motivation is to learn and exchange ideas. Hopefully I can do that without stepping on someone's toes.
Quote from: reasonist on May 30, 2016, 10:03:12 AM
I had no intention to project anything on anybody. I am here to have a honest discussion with not only fellow non believers but also theists like you. I like to learn from other people's mindset, unfortunately nothing can be learned from people like Randy Carson.
I DO care about species on this planet because we are part of this 'system' and not separate entities. Far be it for me to denigrate either our home planet nor our species. No reason to elevate or denigrate. We are just part of the whole and a insignificant part at that. As soon as our species has died out, earth will recover and the show begins anew. I have come to terms with the fact that we are too stupid to inhabit this planet responsibly to leave a clean, peaceful and sustainable place for generations to come. Religion is just one of the many obstacles we face; greed and power are others. Realizing that requires humility, not generalizations. Hubris is exactly what has held us back and ignorance is it's ugly cousin. As long as we believe to be the crowning achievement of a creator, we cannot be objective and humble. One excludes the other.
The definition of terms you mention is a completely human and arbitrary concept. Space and time expressed in numbers is taken from planetary movement and split into fractions. It is the only way we can express what is and what could be in the future.
I am not here to preach or to pry, my only motivation is to learn and exchange ideas. Hopefully I can do that without stepping on someone's toes.
It would be nice if an intelligent, advanced creature could succeed us - but that, I think, requires a rethinking of what "intelligent" means ... We are not intelligent. We are clever, like raccoons, only not as smart. We are not content w/getting at some food and making a little mess, no. We have to make a big mess and create a lot of misery to begin to be satisfied. The intelligent among us were always too few in number, the brutal too many, and the stupid very nearly uncountable. For every Michelangelo how many 10s of millions of morons have there been? "What if Mozart's mother had felt that way?" was one dolt's argument against abortion. My retort was - "What if Hitler's mother had felt that way?"
Conversation is hard work. When we post, are we addressing one person or more than one? I took it and take it that we usually are addressing both, a particular person and the group as a whole. So by "projection" what do I mean? A person has an idea in their head, about who I am, or what group I belong to ... and based on that idea, they partially overwrite what they express to the real person, with their projection of that person or their group. They also have the same confusion regarding themselves. This isn't bigotry that I am talking about, just necessary confusion.
Some people here, and sometimes my own posts reflect it, either rhetorically or my own true position ... that human beings are nasty beasts. But that is why, in response to marom1963 ... I had to mention arete. The Psalms have more negative things to say about people than positive things ... but fortunately it has those positive things to say too.
So the arbitrary definition of terms offends? Well it is arbitrary when we use more than one definition at the same time, with the rhetorical intent to deceive. Most words in a dictionary of English have more than one definition. The ambiguity of natural language is one reason why computer programs have trouble handling them ... superficially it requires a deterministic system to be not only non-deterministic, but either guess right, or have actual understanding of what is being said (something no machine could ever have, no matter how advanced your technology). So yes, honest conversation, as we can best manage it, between honest people. Dishonest people are lying, even when they tell the truth. So either you are the master of the words you use, or you are their master ... technically mastered by the unconscious aspect of all that you have verbally learned. Mastering the unconscious sounds hard to me, but that is what inquiry into the human condition means.
PS - great moments in great religions ... encourage humility, not egomania ... nor self denigration. No, you didn't step on my toes, and yes, I was addressing any reader, not just you.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 30, 2016, 10:23:02 AM
It would be nice if an intelligent, advanced creature could succeed us - but that, I think, requires a rethinking of what "intelligent" means ... We are not intelligent. We are clever, like raccoons, only not as smart. We are not content w/getting at some food and making a little mess, no. We have to make a big mess and create a lot of misery to begin to be satisfied. The intelligent among us were always too few in number, the brutal too many, and the stupid very nearly uncountable. For every Michelangelo how many 10s of millions of morons have there been? "What if Mozart's mother had felt that way?" was one dolt's argument against abortion. My retort was - "What if Hitler's mother had felt that way?"
Our feelings of disappointment, we share in common with the generation who fought WW I ... they had such high hopes in 1914. But you can't live on "what ifs" ... what if Hitler's father had been a good father? His good mother wasn't enough.
Gotta chime in here. Great last few posts. I think we have a fairly large number of people who post on this forum that offer much to think about. I enjoy the diverse ways of looking at our life and our planet. Always much to think over.
Quote from: Baruch on May 30, 2016, 10:27:24 AM
Conversation is hard work. When we post, are we addressing one person or more than one? I took it and take it that we usually are addressing both, a particular person and the group as a whole. So by "projection" what do I mean? A person has an idea in their head, about who I am, or what group I belong to ... and based on that idea, they partially overwrite what they express to the real person, with their projection of that person or their group. They also have the same confusion regarding themselves. This isn't bigotry that I am talking about, just necessary confusion.
Some people here, and sometimes my own posts reflect it, either rhetorically or my own true position ... that human beings are nasty beasts. But that is why, in response to marom1963 ... I had to mention arete. The Psalms have more negative things to say about people than positive things ... but fortunately it has those positive things to say too.
So the arbitrary definition of terms offends? Well it is arbitrary when we use more than one definition at the same time, with the rhetorical intent to deceive. Most words in a dictionary of English have more than one definition. The ambiguity of natural language is one reason why computer programs have trouble handling them ... superficially it requires a deterministic system to be not only non-deterministic, but either guess right, or have actual understanding of what is being said (something no machine could ever have, no matter how advanced your technology). So yes, honest conversation, as we can best manage it, between honest people. Dishonest people are lying, even when they tell the truth. So either you are the master of the words you use, or you are their master ... technically mastered by the unconscious aspect of all that you have verbally learned. Mastering the unconscious sounds hard to me, but that is what inquiry into the human condition means.
PS - great moments in great religions ... encourage humility, not egomania ... nor self denigration. No, you didn't step on my toes, and yes, I was addressing any reader, not just you.
If we allow that Schopenhauer was at least touching upon the unconscious when he discussed the Will (Wille), then he was of the opinion that we could never master it - and I agree. It is, instead, our master - and it will win every time. The trick is to open a dialogue - Freud - that allows us to understand ourselves. Freud must have lied when he said that it was later in life that he read Schopenhauer - either that, or he had forgotten having read him earlier. Regardless, a copy of Schopenhauer was always on Freud's desk. The unconscious is not to be mastered. It is to be kept quiescent by learning to satisfy it in socially acceptable ways.
Repost. Randy, are you afraid to answer? Are you a coward? Hep, hep, hep me jesus, devil gonna get me!!
Most of the bible thumper sects in Canada are happy to help MENNONITE BRETHREN ORGANIZED CRIME harass me.
How do you rationalize this campaign of harassment?
Or the Vatican cover -up child abuse for 100's of years?
Or Native Canadian children kidnapped, abused and tortured by "christians" for 100 yrs in the Residential School system?
:angry:
Um randy's been put in purgatory.
I bet Randy is a group of bible thumpers, earning jesus points to get into heaven.
They are here to suck bandwidth, promote a debate re god, distract from other issues.
MENNONITE MULE SMUGGLING DRUGS FOR MEXICAN CARTELS
[redacted]
Whoops. Accidently moved this to hall of records... It's back now
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 04, 2016, 05:49:44 PMhall of records
This sounds amazing, and I wish to see it. Pretty please?
(http://petguide.com.vsassets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/puppy-dog-eyes.jpg)
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 04, 2016, 06:14:47 PM
This sounds amazing, and I wish to see it. Pretty please?
(http://petguide.com.vsassets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/puppy-dog-eyes.jpg)
It's not really anything interesting. It's just where we dump spam threads. Mostly because they contain possibly malicious links
And no. I can't show you it... Sorry
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 04, 2016, 06:21:00 PM
It's not really anything interesting. It's just where we dump spam threads. Mostly because they contain possibly malicious links
And no. I can't show you it... Sorry
Oh... okay...
(http://i.imgur.com/YBYJ8b5.png)
Quote from: reasonist on May 29, 2016, 03:01:13 PM
Your definition of the (super)natural was certainly educational. While I don't share your point of view entirely, much of what you wrote seems plausible from a rational cognitive aspect. Personally, I don't subscribe to any kind of metaphysics, it's just not empirical enough for me, much to much speculation and assumption. Maybe I don't see the grey, only the black and white but as a pragmatic, anything can be explained as originating from the human mind. For me, a Hubble picture of a far away galaxy is more awe inspiring to me than any deity for example. Finding recently the first amino acid (Glycine) in the dust cloud of comet 'Tschuri' ever, along with phosphorus, the backbone of DNA, gives validation to the concept that all life comes from other parts of the universe, and did not originate on earth. That to me is more fascinating than any deistic or theistic explanation. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't need a first cause explanation. The universe just IS, no plans, no reason, no beginning and no end. I accept that we are not the center of the universe, much less that a deity is concerned about our way of life. As a very temporary species on a lonely planet in the middle of billions of solar systems within billions of galaxies, I can't find enough hubris to believe that we are somewhat special or superior to the other 8 million species on this planet.
Yeah, the fact that we are unique in our placement within observable existence says nothing at all. The fact that absolutely everything within observable existence can be described and observed through mathematical terms says nothing for intelligent design whatsoever. And the fact that there is no evidence supporting chance or coincidence whatsoever shouldn't deter people who claim to use empirical evidence and logic from thinking life happened by chance. People should continue to assume that some level of creation and evolution can't possibly both be right, because they totally don't work together. People should continue to consider all religions to be contradictory to one another even when a quick unbiased reading of any of the core texts of said religions are seemingly the same and span history and geography. People should continue to ignore their conscience via societal norms and personal want. And when it affects them negatively they can just take meds and occupy their mind with fruitless bs.
Done ranting
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 04, 2016, 11:55:13 PM
Yeah, the fact that we are unique in our placement within observable existence says nothing at all. The fact that absolutely everything within observable existence can be described and observed through mathematical terms says nothing for intelligent design whatsoever. And the fact that there is no evidence supporting chance or coincidence whatsoever shouldn't deter people who claim to use empirical evidence and logic from thinking life happened by chance. People should continue to assume that some level of creation and evolution can't possibly both be right, because they totally don't work together. People should continue to consider all religions to be contradictory to one another even when a quick unbiased reading of any of the core texts of said religions are seemingly the same and span history and geography. People should continue to ignore their conscience via societal norms and personal want. And when it affects them negatively they can just take meds and occupy their mind with fruitless bs.
Done ranting
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Nicely done.
Quote from: marom1963 on June 05, 2016, 12:02:15 AM
Nicely done.
Thank you humbly. Reading it, it felt a little abrasive. That wasn't really intentional.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 04, 2016, 11:55:13 PM
Yeah, the fact that we are unique in our placement within observable existence says nothing at all. The fact that absolutely everything within observable existence can be described and observed through mathematical terms says nothing for intelligent design whatsoever. And the fact that there is no evidence supporting chance or coincidence whatsoever shouldn't deter people who claim to use empirical evidence and logic from thinking life happened by chance. People should continue to assume that some level of creation and evolution can't possibly both be right, because they totally don't work together. People should continue to consider all religions to be contradictory to one another even when a quick unbiased reading of any of the core texts of said religions are seemingly the same and span history and geography. People should continue to ignore their conscience via societal norms and personal want. And when it affects them negatively they can just take meds and occupy their mind with fruitless bs.
Done ranting
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
My, my, my, aren't you just frothing at the mouth!!!!! Such vile, bitter and powerful words!!!!! Just kidding, pops--if that is a rant, then you need to take a class in 'ranting'! :)))))))
But I must say I disagree with just about everything you said in your 'rant'.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 09:26:47 AM
My, my, my, aren't you just frothing at the mouth!!!!! Such vile, bitter and powerful words!!!!! Just kidding, pops--if that is a rant, then you need to take a class in 'ranting'! :)))))))
But I must say I disagree with just about everything you said in your 'rant'.
Good. Maybe you can show my error with logic and empirical evidence. I'm not being a smart ass either. I'm serious. Show my error that I might learn from it.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 04, 2016, 11:55:13 PM
Yeah, the fact that we are unique in our placement within observable existence says nothing at all.
Correct.
QuoteThe fact that absolutely everything within observable existence can be described and observed through mathematical terms says nothing for intelligent design whatsoever.
Correct again.
QuoteAnd the fact that there is no evidence supporting chance or coincidence whatsoever shouldn't deter people who claim to use empirical evidence and logic from thinking life happened by chance.
Well two outta three ain't bad.
QuotePeople should continue to assume that some level of creation and evolution can't possibly both be right, because they totally don't work together.
People can assume whatever they like. What I can tell you for sure is that there is as yet no evidence to support the assumption that some level of creation is involved.
QuotePeople should continue to consider all religions to be contradictory to one another even when a quick unbiased reading of any of the core texts of said religions are seemingly the same and span history and geography.
Who says all religions are contradictory to one another? I think most would agree they're for the most part all the same. Which only makes sense when you consider the source. When you get right down to it, most cars are all the same. They're all designed and made by people and they're all designed to do more or less the same thing. So they're all more similar than they are different. Same with airplanes. They're all designed and built by people and they're all designed and built to do more or less the same thing. So they all look very similar when you get right down to it. Same thing with chairs. Same thing with tables. Same thing with refrigerators. Same thing with religion. In each case, they are things that are designed by people and each is designed for a specific purpose therefore all incarnations of each is bound to largely resemble all other incarnations of each. Pretty simple how that works.
QuotePeople should continue to ignore their conscience via societal norms and personal want. And when it affects them negatively they can just take meds and occupy their mind with fruitless bs.
Speak for yourself. My conscience is just fine.
"People can assume whatever they like. What I can tell you for sure is that there is as yet no evidence to support the assumption that some level of creation is involved."
It would appear that there is more and more time and space being "created" ... in terms of appearing out of nowhere. Or does space and time produce more space and time? Mass/energy does seem to stay the same, isn't "created", but the details on Dark Energy and Dark Matter are still pending.
What Pop's means is probably what I mean. I didn't exist before I was born, and I won't exist after I die (at least in this universe). In that sense I was created and I will be destroyed, even though my mass/energy balance has been maintained all along. To physical science, my mass/energy has been exchanged with my environment, and my mass/energy has been rearranged within myself, but the accounting balance is zero. But all of that matters to me ;-)
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 09:46:12 AM
Good. Maybe you can show my error with logic and empirical evidence. I'm not being a smart ass either. I'm serious. Show my error that I might learn from it.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
That would be a labor of futility. Why? Because you are blinded by your self confessed 'faith'. You would not see any 'evidence' as such. There would be no point in going to such effort. Just as when you claimed to have been an atheist, you did not change your outlook because of 'evidence'--not of the kind that can be examined by anybody else but you. You did your own mind changing. And that will not happen unless and until you will allow it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 05, 2016, 01:05:44 PM
"People can assume whatever they like. What I can tell you for sure is that there is as yet no evidence to support the assumption that some level of creation is involved."
It would appear that there is more and more time and space being "created" ... in terms of appearing out of nowhere. Or does space and time produce more space and time? Mass/energy does seem to stay the same, isn't "created", but the details on Dark Energy and Dark Matter are still pending.
What Pop's means is probably what I mean. I didn't exist before I was born, and I won't exist after I die (at least in this universe). In that sense I was created and I will be destroyed, even though my mass/energy balance has been maintained all along. To physical science, my mass/energy has been exchanged with my environment, and my mass/energy has been rearranged within myself, but the accounting balance is zero. But all of that matters to me ;-)
Maybe--maybe not. You use 'created' for 'made'. I was made from biological stuff. I was not created whole cloth; the system and materials were present. I think pops means that the 'creator' made the universe and all that stuff, from whole cloth--the creator created not only the universe, but the system and the materials to do it with. In that sense, for me, nothing in this universe was 'created'; everything was/is contained within the universe and so are the systems needed to make stuff.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 09:46:12 AM
Maybe you can show my error with logic and empirical evidence. I'm not being a smart ass either. I'm serious. Show my error that I might learn from it.
Claims god is all powerful and all knowing, but his god, by the very words contained in the babble:
Can't beat humans who have iron wheels
Always take three tries to beat any other army
Claims that one third of the stars have been flung to the earth (at least two times already) with absolutely no possible evidence or chance of it every actually happening, not to bring up the fact that it would be impossible, Period.
Claims the sky can be rolled up like a scroll.
Kills children for teasing a man who is bald, and claims the moral high ground
Rewards a man who claims his was too drunk to know he fucked both his daughters.
Rewards a man who lied about his wife being his wife and punished the innocent who believed he was telling the truth.
Orders a woman to be dismembered should she fight to save the life of her husband
Orders children be murdered for the crime of being born to another tribe
Orders the rape of little girls.
You go boy, ignore everything in the babble that disagrees with logic and empirical evidence. LOLOLOL….
idiot.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 02:04:47 PM
Claims god is all powerful and all knowing, but his god, by the very words contained in the babble:
Can't beat humans who have iron wheels
Always take three tries to beat any other army
Claims that one third of the stars have been flung to the earth (at least two times already) with absolutely no possible evidence or chance of it every actually happening, not to bring up the fact that it would be impossible, Period.
Claims the sky can be rolled up like a scroll.
Kills children for teasing a man who is bald, and claims the moral high ground
Rewards a man who claims his was too drunk to know he fucked both his daughters.
Rewards a man who lied about his wife being his wife and punished the innocent who believed he was telling the truth.
Orders a woman to be dismembered should she fight to save the life of her husband
Orders children be murdered for the crime of being born to another tribe
Orders the rape of little girls.
You go boy, ignore everything in the babble that disagrees with logic and empirical evidence. LOLOLOL….
idiot.
Only a fool would take such things literally.
The rest is gross manipulation of the texts.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:18:31 PM
Only a fool would take such things literally.
The rest is gross manipulation of the texts.
……..except for the parts you agree with…..LOLOLOL
idiot.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 01:54:33 PM
That would be a labor of futility. Why? Because you are blinded by your self confessed 'faith'. You would not see any 'evidence' as such. There would be no point in going to such effort. Just as when you claimed to have been an atheist, you did not change your outlook because of 'evidence'--not of the kind that can be examined by anybody else but you. You did your own mind changing. And that will not happen unless and until you will allow it.
Wow, such effort. That seems like a chicken shit way to crawfish out of your previous statement.
You don't agree with what I said.
You use irrefutable logic and empirical evidence to show that what you believe is true and not only belief.
I would have no choice but to admit if and where you are right. How could I refute it if it is indeed based on logic and evidence?
I hold exceptionally high regard for scientific endeavor and empirical knowledge as I was an atheist for a really long time for good reason. Please don't assume I through out my logic or previously acquired understanding/ critical thinking skills/ or beliefs. Why would I? Is not atheism the lack of belief? As such one can believe and still not loose anything from atheism.
I really can't see your logic even here, so maybe you are right.😜
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:28:19 PM
chicken shit
:kiddingme:
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:28:19 PM
I really can't see your logic even here, so maybe you are right.
Are you trying to be ironic?
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 03:24:15 PM
……..except for the parts you agree with…..LOLOLOL
idiot.
You seem to misunderstand what I am saying.
You are manipulating the texts. Not someone else in this case
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:28:19 PM
Wow, such effort. That seems like a chicken shit way to crawfish out of your previous statement.
You don't agree with what I said.
You use irrefutable logic and empirical evidence to show that what you believe is true and not only belief.
I would have no choice but to admit if and where you are right. How could I refute it if it is indeed based on logic and evidence?
I hold exceptionally high regard for scientific endeavor and empirical knowledge as I was an atheist for a really long time for good reason. Please don't assume I through out my logic or previously acquired understanding/ critical thinking skills/ or beliefs. Why would I? Is not atheism the lack of belief? As such one can believe and still not loose anything from atheism.
I really can't see your logic even here, so maybe you are right.😜
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Okay, let me put it this way then. Get off your lazy, fucking arrogant ass and look it up--we have talked on this subject from your first post, basically. You are simply a blind, fucking willfully ignorant theist--it is that simple--stupid! You make a virtue of your fucking ignorance.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:20:14 PM
Okay, let me put it this way then. Get off your lazy, fucking arrogant ass and look it up--we have talked on this subject from your first post, basically. You are simply a blind, fucking willfully ignorant theist--it is that simple--stupid! You make a virtue of your fucking ignorance.
The ole failsafe; calling names.
No one can refute that.
Good job
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 04:22:05 PM
The ole failsafe; calling names.
No one can refute that.
Good job
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
I see, so this is you version of 'a chicken shit way to crawfish out'.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 05, 2016, 04:24:26 PM
I see, so this is you version of 'a chicken shit way to crawfish out'.
What am I backing out of exactly? I asked you a question. You said you wouldn't be bothered to explain even though your have logic and evidence on your side. I stated that if that is indeed the case that I would have no choice but to agree given said logic and evidence are what you claim them to be. You then say I'm lazy and stupid.
We're did I back out?
Confused
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 03:18:31 PM
Only a fool would take such things literally.
Yeah I used to think the same thing.
QuoteYou shall not lie with a male as with a woman
But then a bunch of 'believers' decided to try to make laws based on this one which would apply to everyone regardless of whether they believe or not. Now I'm sure you will call these people believers instead of fools. So I guess you'll have to forgive me if I choose to call them assholes.
Quote from: Johan on June 05, 2016, 06:02:15 PM
Yeah I used to think the same thing. But then a bunch of 'believers' decided to try to make laws based on this one which would apply to everyone regardless of whether they believe or not. Now I'm sure you will call these people believers instead of fools. So I guess you'll have to forgive me if I choose to call them assholes.
I can't speak for others or the validity of the laws of man. And yes I may call them fools too as being a "believer" says nothing for ones intellect, or their ability to think for themselves and not follow the herd just because that's what the rest are doing.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 04:19:48 PM
You are manipulating the texts. Not someone else in this case
When the babble says, 'go and take the young women who have not known a man and keep them for yourself" it pretty much says exactly what it says.
When the babble says, "and a third of the stars fell to the earth" you suggest it is merely metaphorical
When the babble says, "and on the third day he arose"…..why that shit be mother fucking letter for letter mother fucking FACT jack.
and you wonder why we think you're a twit.
Quote from: aitm on June 05, 2016, 06:25:50 PM
When the babble says, 'go and take the young women who have not known a man and keep them for yourself" it pretty much says exactly what it says.
When the babble says, "and a third of the stars fell to the earth" you suggest it is merely metaphorical
When the babble says, "and on the third day he arose"…..why that shit be mother fucking letter for letter mother fucking FACT jack.
and you wonder why we think you're a twit.
You really aren't worth my time evidently as I never stated any of those things and your grand assumption makes you seem like a grand ass.
Try asking what someone believes instead of asserting it based on what you think it should be.
I would be offended if you had the slightest idea of what were talking about.
I apologize for being rude in like kind; but those are really baseless assertions.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 09:20:59 PM
You really aren't worth my time evidently as I never stated any of those things and your grand assumption makes you seem like a grand ass.
Try asking what someone believes instead of asserting it based on what you think it should be.
I would be offended if you had the slightest idea of what were talking about.
I apologize for being rude in like kind; but those are really baseless assertions.
Peace
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
When a person comes here and proclaims to be a believer (as you have), it is not unreasonable at all to assume they ascribe to and follow and otherwise believe in the writings of the bible. If you do not, bully for you. But if that's the case, please know that you are far and away the exception rather than anything remotely resembling the rule. IOW don't be so quick to get all snippy because the atheists you came to spare off with say some things that don't necessarily apply to you in particular.
Quote from: Johan on June 05, 2016, 09:56:42 PM
When a person comes here and proclaims to be a believer (as you have), it is not unreasonable at all to assume they ascribe to and follow and otherwise believe in the writings of the bible. If you do not, bully for you. But if that's the case, please know that you are far and away the exception rather than anything remotely resembling the rule. IOW don't be so quick to get all snippy because the atheists you came to spare off with say some things that don't necessarily apply to you in particular.
Good point. And much of the bible resonates with me on an inner most level.
I too find myself stereotyping people at times, but when I catch it I own up to it and attempt to keep it in mind as to learn from my mistake and attempt to not make it again.
Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
Quote from: popsthebuilder on June 05, 2016, 10:37:36 PMAnd much of the bible resonates with me on an inner most level.
They make bible sex toys?
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 05, 2016, 10:45:40 PM
They make bible sex toys?
(https://i.imgur.com/rlraAOV.png)
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 05, 2016, 10:45:40 PM
They make bible sex toys?
Oh, yeah...
(http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Screen-shot-2010-03-16-at-10.43.55-AM.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/8Pw90.jpg)
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 08, 2016, 05:49:39 PM
Oh, yeah...
(http://i.imgur.com/8Pw90.jpg)
Think I've seen this one used on the Japanese porno channels.
when did all this happen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezeskgfUIqA