I feel that I should start off by saying that I'm still undecided between Sanders and Clinton (and my State's primary is long over): I like Sanders more as a person, he is better on some policies and worse on others, and I think months of GOP attack adds "Sanders=socialist=communist" will make him less electable than Clinton.
But some of Sanders' supporters are really turning me off. It was easy to ignore the voices who claimed Clinton/DNC somehow rigged the Iowa caucus with crooked coin flips. But the conspiracy theories keep coming and keep getting more outlandish. As a small sampling, the Sanders campaign only appeared to steal Clinton campaign data because of a DNC plant--part of a concerted effort to infiltrate his staff with double agents--or so I've been told. I keep seeing easily falsifiable claims that Sanders actually has more pledged delegates or won more popular votes but the media uses super-delegates to hide that "fact". Just today I was repeatedly reassured that Sanders had a massive lead in New York if the media would only admit it. Everyone knows that the media is in Clinton's pocket; yet she keeps gets more negative and less positive (though more total) coverage than Sanders. And, of course, the steady drip drip drip of voter fraud allegations continue unabated.
In response to the New York primary a friend I've known for 15ish years posted on facebook about how Democracy and the American dream were murdered my Hillary and her big money friends rigging the vote by purging Sanders supporters from the voter rolls and changing the rules to block independent voters from participating. When I (bluntly) asked him for evidence he told me to stop treading him like a child, I told him to stop throwing a temper-tantrum and he blocked me on facebook.
I share this story not because you should care about my friend and I facebook fighting, but to illustrate my point. This blow up between us had been growing inevitable as he became more and more devoted to Sanders winning what (still, perhaps even increasingly) looks like a long shot and I became less and less willing to ignore his bullshit. And I'm afraid that more and more "Bernie or Bust" Democrats (a similarly titled thread exists on this forum) are going down a similar path. As they internalize claims of a rigged contest and come to believe that Hillary is no better than Trump or Cruz I honestly believe that they are endangering not just the upcoming general election, not just the balance of the supreme court, not just the Democratic party but the country as a whole. I can understand being upset and even angry about your candidate loosing, but sitting out the election or voting for Trump/Cruz to "Bern the whole country down" just boggles my mind. With all due respect (and, frankly, I'm not sure any is due to someone who would actually vote Trump/Cruz for no reason but to spite Hillary) I still have to live in this country and would prefer it not be turned into a smoldering wasteland.
Clinton obviously has flaws. I agree that she is to the right of Obama on some issues. But to suggest that we'd be no better off with a Clinton presidency and Clinton supreme court picks than we would be with a Trump/Cruz presidency and supreme court seems even more delusional to me than saying that we are no better off after an Obama presidency and Obama supreme court than we could be if we had had a McCain/Romney presidency and supreme court or to say that 8 years of Bush are indistinguishable from 8 hypothetical years of Gore.
I agree, though I can't help but wonder how Clinton supporters would feel if her opponent started out with a substantial superdelegate lead or if polls of debate-goers said that Clinton won but the news reports said the opposite. True, there's a lot of bullshit conspiracy mongering, but there's a legitimate gripe to be had.
The voting irregularities in New York (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-York-City-Brooklyn-Voting-Problems-GOP-Democratic-Primaries-NY-376258541.html) are troubling to say the least. It's little wonder voter suppression narratives are being crafted.
I had to block a friend on Facebook who was making about 40 Bernie posts a day, and I ardently support Bernie.
But seriously, any time she did well in a state (even if it was by an overwhelming margin), it was only because of massive voter fraud and media bias. Any time she lost a state, it was because "the people have truly spoken."
The media bias thing really gets me. I think people just aren't picking up on fundamental differences between supporters of the two candidates.
Clinton supporters are older, less likely to go to rallies, but far more likely to vote. They read the New York Times, they watch CNN, they diversify their portfolios. Clinton has done a lot to warrant being in the news, and not all of it positive, but newsworthy nonetheless.
Bernie supporters get their news from social media, so outlets like the NY Times and CNN aren't going to pander to a demographic that doesn't give a shit. Furthermore, Sanders doesn't say much other than "We gotta break up the big banks" which is a song that has been sung. There's not a lot of new material for the news media to cover. Lastly, Bernie supporters show up to rallies in droves, but they don't vote, and it can't all be because of massive voter fraud. Especially not when Clinton wins a state with like damn near 80% of the vote.
It also drives me crazy how people point to things Clinton did in the early 90s or as a college student in the 70s as a mark of how she is as a politician. She has spent her adult life in the national political arena as the First Lady, a Senator, presidential candidate and Secretary of State. Bernie Sanders has been in Congress for a while, but let's be honest, no one knew who he was two years ago. So when we hold a microscope up to their records, Clinton's is going to look rougher no matter what simply because comparing their careers is like apples and oranges.
Still doesn't mean I support her, but at least I can, you know, think critically about things rather than just scream bias and fraud any time my candidate doesn't win everything.
I'm really beginning to think that both parties are headed to a huge split and this could work out to our benefit because the system we've had in place for far too long has left us with choosing between the shit sandwich and the piss soaked bread with shit on the side.
@ Poison Tree
There's been an unusual discrepancy between Clinton VS Sanders reports coming out of the media, even from what I think of as main stream media, and it's not been very helpful to my understanding of the situation. That is, I don't have much understanding because the reports seem to be all over the map, and I get the feeling that these reports might be comparing apples to oranges (Bernie wins if you look at it this way, but Clinton wins if you look at it that way). In the past, it's been my experience that published polls have usually been accurate in predicting winners, even though politicians try to convince the public that polls don't mean anything. Not from what I've seen.
But now, they are using telephone polls, exit polls, polls taken at rallies, and more ways to take polls than I can think of. The media is also introducing new factors like the super delegate factor. WTF?? Is our system that influenced by what is essentially a bunch of good ole boys committed to the old smoke filled room politics as opposed to advancing the voter's lot in life? Well, yeah, I think that's always been true in both parties. It's not about what's good for America. It's what's good for our party, which translates into what's best for Corporate America. But excuse me for the cynical digression.
As for voting fraud? Whether it helps or hurts Clinton, I don't know. But it's a fact that it exists. You would have to be naïve to believe the system hasn't been corrupted as much as the parties are capable of corrupting it. And it skews the voter's voice in politics.
Here's what I think is going on. Hillary is going to win the nomination probably by a significant margin. That's what I THINK, but what I'm SURE ABOUT is that the media wants to generate attention, because that translates into sales. People will read more papers or click on more popups if the media can turn a walk-away into a horse race. So they've got people like me scratching my head trying to sift through as much bullshit as they can generate. Actually, I'm getting rather bored and losing interest, but I don't think I'm typical.
And then there is an actual degeneration of the media, which is becoming more blog-like and biased and much less professional. Hell, even some of the shit I read on Yahoo is written by "journalists" who aren't even capable of constructing sentences. The emphasis in news has moved away from hard nosed reporting towards pleasing the bean counters in the basement at CNN.
So I'm saying there's probably a combination of truth and falsehood in a lot of the shit your Facebook friends are coming up. None of us are in a great position to know what's going on, so I wouldn't hate those who support Sanders (or Clinton) for forming opinions on an absolute wealth of disinformation we get to digest. Yeah, some are obviously blindly biased. You can say that about Clinton supporters as much as you can Sanders supporters.
I personally don't like Clinton's politics, but maybe it's because I know her too well. I don't know (or trust) Sanders, and I don't know how he will act, but I agree with his basic concepts, even if he has not explained how he's going to make them happen. Considering the shit we get to pick from, I'll vote for some nobody that has nothing to do with Washington, because the current political system is so foul. The choices we get from the parties, are choices we get from a degenerate system, and none of them represent a change from the system to which they owe their present careers.
I know EXACTLY what you mean. In fact, I fully expected to find responses in this thread shitting all over you for not being all Bernie, all the time. I made one comment about how I would like to see the first female president and it started page after page of putting words in my mouth and claiming that I said people shouldn't vote for Bernie and that I was a Hillary supporter when, in fact, I hadn't actually come out "for" either candidate, listing a slew of things I didn't like about Hillary to boot. But if you don't say, "Go Bernie! Hillary sucks!" like you're a halfwit jock at an irrelevant sporting event Bernie supporters can (not all do, but the ones who do are loud, arrogant and abrasive) be quite combative with their responses. To be frank, it actually made me like Bernie LESS, even though it had nothing to do with him, personally.
I like that he's getting young people not only involved, not only interested, but actually EXCITED about the political process. Unfortunately, the "maturity level" of some of his supporters is right around the maturity level of pretty much the entire Republican party. I have a friend who is a huge Bernie supporter and, while not nearly so abrasive, he is VERY pushy and likes to pretend that all the Hillary is some criminal mastermind of some higher level than any other politician ever. Hopefully these young people will stay interested in the political process, stop watching shit like Jersey Shore for advice on how to interact with people socially and grow the fuck up a little to learn that the more you push, the bigger dick you are, the less people care about the things you care about. Seriously, some of his supporters think that they're actually helping him by shouting and screaming and accusing and name-calling, but really it's "Win the battle, lose the war" because all they're doing is turning people AGAINST him. Fuck Bernie. I hope he does lose. Why? Because some dickhead suggested I was an idiot for not supporting him and only him fully and unconditionally; that by saying anything whatsoever good about Hillary I was telling people not to vote for Bernie (in the same way that not teaching anything about religion in schools is actually teaching atheism, I assume). Come back next election cycle with intelligent and RESPECTFUL discourse and you may sway me. This time, though, fuck Bernie and he has his supporters to thank for that. I actually liked him before I chatted with them.
Well......HRC got all the votes in N Y- because Wall Street, IMO. Think Bernie is pretty much done. HRC gonna be the Dem candidate. Still think that Obama made a deal with her- be Secretary of State, step back let me have the nomination, I'll boot you up the ladder for the next presidency. She's got "street cred" in being in the White House 8 years, serving as a senator and also SOS. So go where you want with that, but Bernie needs to pull a miracle out of his ass to get the nomination at this point.
Obama sucked up to Wall Street, Hillary too. Think we all can figure out who is really running things.
Quote from: widdershins on April 20, 2016, 10:56:55 AMI know EXACTLY what you mean. In fact, I fully expected to find responses in this thread shitting all over you for not being all Bernie, all the time.
And they didn't. In fact, this huge divergence between your perception of bernie supporters and their actual behavior is rather telling.
QuoteI made one comment about how I would like to see the first female president
Well, duh. That's tokenism, which is worlds apart from genuine equality. For people who actually believe in equality, those characteristics doesn't matter and don't factor into their decisions.
Here's what you said that touched it off:
QuoteI'm not quite ready to go from "our fist non-white President" back to "old white guy" just yet, which is my biggest stickler against Bernie. He's the oldest, whitest guy running.
Essentially, Bernie's an old white guy and I'm going to hold it against him. This is one of the most regressive, vile things I've ever heard anyone say about the guy from the left, and it would be roundly condemned if it were about Obama or Hillary. Directing that sort of regressive bile against a white guy doesn't make it any better - thinking in those terms contradicts liberal values and jeopardizes social progress, which is why it's so unnerving to see it in the left.
QuoteFuck Bernie. I hope he does lose. Why? Because some dickhead suggested I was an idiot for not supporting him and only him fully and unconditionally
And this from a guy complaining about immaturity and dickishness. Oh the irony.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
And they didn't. In fact, this huge divergence between your perception of bernie supporters and their actual behavior is rather telling.
I could also be that the Bernie supporters on this forum aren't your typical Bernie supporter too. This site is a nexus of atheism, and a pretty critical component to being an atheist is thinking critically and skepticism.
Quote from: TomFoolery on April 20, 2016, 12:15:07 PMI could also be that the Bernie supporters on this forum aren't your typical Bernie supporter too. This site is a nexus of atheism, and a pretty critical component to being an atheist is thinking critically and skepticism.
True, that might be a factor. Though I think our little band is, for good or bad, fairly representative of the political milieu, at least on the Democratic side.
Quote from: widdershins on April 20, 2016, 10:56:55 AM
I like that he's getting young people not only involved, not only interested, but actually EXCITED about the political process. Unfortunately, the "maturity level" of some of his supporters is right around the maturity level of pretty much the entire Republican party.
I actually think that this is a huge part of it. I get the feeling that a lot of the vocal Sanders supporters only started paying attention to politics when he took off and are mistaking the way the system has worked for decades with an anti-Sanders conspiracy. For example, while I understand the argument that McGovern and Carter were weak candidates because they lacked support from party officials I nevertheless think that there are strong arguments against (unelected) super delegates comprising 20% of Democratic Delegates. But I also know that super delegates have been around since the mid 80s but someone less knowledgeable in primaries could mistakenly believe that super delegates are a new phenomenon crafted specifically to defeat their guy.
Quote from: Poison Tree on April 20, 2016, 12:58:09 PM
But I also know that super delegates have been around since the mid 80s but someone less knowledgeable in primaries could mistakenly believe that super delegates are a new phenomenon crafted specifically to defeat their guy.
They haven't got much press before, almost like the press wasn't aware of them either. This is the first year I can remember where the Super delegates are talked about on a daily/hourly basis. The media seems to be presenting it as, "It never mattered before, so we didn't address it. But this year it's so close that they may come into play." I've tried to understand why this isn't just media bullshit, because I've seen closer races than this, and I can't remember the super delegates changing the outcome in such a way that it overrode the popular vote. After all, I would think since these guys are usually senators and congressmen, changing the outcome from popular approval to a good ole boy party insider would be political suicide.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
And they didn't. In fact, this huge divergence between your perception of bernie supporters and their actual behavior is rather telling.
You do realize that you're one of the major Sanders supporters that makes me hate Sanders today, right? I mean, there were other reasons, but YOU get to claim responsibility for giving me the "Fuck Sanders" attitude, personally. And here we go again, apparently. I think we're about to change that "didn't" to "hadn't until now" real quick here.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
Well, duh. That's tokenism, which is worlds apart from genuine equality. For people who actually believe in equality, those characteristics doesn't matter and don't factor into their decisions.
Okay, whatever.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
Here's what you said that touched it off: Essentially, Bernie's an old white guy and I'm going to hold it against him.
When you paraphrase what I said, you're not saying what I said. You're changing what I said to better your argument. I can respect that maybe that's how you read it, but that is not what I said and not what I meant. Accept that or don't. I'm not going to argue with you about it again. You've already made me anti-Bernie. Fuck Bernie. Your work is done. No need to start this shit all over again.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
This is one of the most regressive, vile things I've ever heard anyone say about the guy from the left, and it would be roundly condemned if it were about Obama or Hillary. Directing that sort of regressive bile against a white guy doesn't make it any better - thinking in those terms contradicts liberal values and jeopardizes social progress, which is why it's so unnerving to see it in the left.
I disagree. We've established this. Again, fuck Bernie, there's no more damage to be done by being a dick about it all over again.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 20, 2016, 11:18:14 AM
And this from a guy complaining about immaturity and dickishness. Oh the irony.
Dickishness, definitely. But you
earned that. You worked very hard to turn me against Bernie. You constantly misrepresented what I was saying by changing the wording until it better matched what you wanted me to have said (as you're already doing here). And you made outright false claims, claiming that I "argued against voting for Sanders". None of my statements were in any way an attempt to sway any vote, simply a statement of my opinion.
I'm not getting into this pissing contest with you again. You've already started changing the wording of what I said so that it sounds like I'm the villain, and we're simply not doing that again. Your style of "discussion" is to argue, I'm only interested in the facts. So, I say again, fuck Bernie, that's in very large part on you, good day.
I do disagree with cheering on Bernie like this is a sports game and Bernie supporters sometimes getting their facts wrong. More people should be saying fuck Bernie. He has his flaws and would still be a shitty President. He's the only well known candidate that is running on the left though, so I like him better than the other main candidates running. If one considers themself a lefty and is voting for one of the main candidates other than Bernie, that makes absolutely no sense to me. Bernie is the only left/ liberal candidate still running. Bernie is the only choice I see for those who consider themselves to be on the left. Everyone else running is either a right wing neo-con, or they are Donald Trump.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on April 20, 2016, 08:26:22 AM
I'm really beginning to think that both parties are headed to a huge split and this could work out to our benefit because the system we've had in place for far too long has left us with choosing between the shit sandwich and the piss soaked bread with shit on the side.
LOL! I've made several posts (various news item threads) that Billary & Chump are opposite sides of the same shit covered coin. Impossible to pick up without getting shit on your fingers. One IS "The System" and the other is the special interest who spent decades buying the system.
Like it or not; we're pretty much stuck with a two party system. Like any healthy relationship; there has to be a significant amount of compromise, mutual respect, and empathy. Take two individuals who are both "My Way or the Highway" types.............you know where that ends. The parties should be able to talk things out, and do some horse trading to come up with a workable compromise. Instead both have gravitated to their outside edges over the last 40 years; leaving them gutted of the "hated moderates" who used to talk to each other, compromise on issues and keep things moving along.
Each party has steadily been shrinking, while those who call themselves independents growing in numbers. Yet the party bases continue to shriek "we've got principles"; the very thin political veneer of a my way nazi.
When I get to be Dictator of the US..............................the first thing I'm doing is kill all those fucking extremists! :)
Politics would be more reasonable if the stakes were more reasonable.
1. World Conquest
2. World Enslavement
3. World Genocide
Not very important stakes. Political actors being maniacs for power, wealth and fame. Color me uninterested in what the asylum inmates are arguing about.
Quote from: Flanker1Six on April 21, 2016, 07:21:09 PM
One IS "The System" and the other is the special interest who spent decades buying the system.
Wait, is that antisemitic? I'm assuming the Jew is the one who has "spent decades buying the system", right?
Just kidding. I know what you mean.
Quote from: widdershins on April 26, 2016, 05:45:33 PM
Wait, is that antisemitic? I'm assuming the Jew is the one who has "spent decades buying the system", right?
Just kidding. I know what you mean.
Not necessarily. Do the Rothschilds own the planet? Are they actually Jewish? That is one of the oldest conspiracy theories. Is it actually better for Gentiles to own the planet? What about the Bilderbergers and Trilateralists?
Now that Hillary did modestly well in three states and came very close in a fourth, I'm waiting for the ardent Bernie supporters to have shocking evidence of more voter fraud, complain about the media bias reporting on Hillary's victories, and toss out even more bizarre theories and stories that range from "the voting clerk asked who I was voting for and when I said Sanders, he wadded up my ballot, threw it in the trash and threatened me" to "I saw snipers up on the roof of the civic center shooting Sanders supporters!"
Guys I hate to break it to you, but you don't have this luxury.
I don't get how one voter or a group of voters can influence someone's opinion on their vote or even the candidate. Seriously? You know yourselves and why would you vote for one not for the other, right? That's it, you are done. Other than that in an election season -not to mention in the USA- people will come up with any kind of stuff you can imagine and can't imagine. This doesn't have to be a plan or some sort conspiracy or violation. It's the game.
Why is it important how a group of Bernie supporters -or any group of supporters for that matter- act, say, do... esp. when almost everyone -more or less- has an idea that they are voting for some sort of a lesser evil or better of the worse and what is at stake; what is standing at other side in a two party system of one ground?
Voting for the lesser evil is something I stopped doing after 94. If a candidate doesn't have a positive message, I won't vote for him/her.
Quote from: Baruch on April 27, 2016, 06:34:55 AM
Voting for the lesser evil is something I stopped doing after 94. If a candidate doesn't have a positive message, I won't vote for him/her.
Good for you! I absolutely loathe the "throwing your vote away" argument, often given by the same people who argue against the "What's one vote? My vote doesn't matter" argument. I think independents could do some real damage to the two
cartel party system if people didn't have the ignorant view that you HAD to vote for one or the other of the major parties. It's starting to change a little as independents are getting elected in lesser positions, escalated by party members switching to independent when they don't win the nomination for their particular race. Hell, I'd actually love to see Bernie lose the nomination only to win the election as an independent. That would totally kick some ass.
Quote from: Baruch on April 27, 2016, 06:34:55 AM
Voting for the lesser evil is something I stopped doing after 94. If a candidate doesn't have a positive message, I won't vote for him/her.
Then you are not voting? Because while that sounds very ideal and cool, it really doesn't work that way.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 27, 2016, 01:40:46 PM
Then you are not voting? Because while that sounds very ideal and cool, it really doesn't work that way.
I vote selectively, given the candidates available. I would enthusiastically support a positive personality that has a clear goal of benefitting the common good. But alas, American candidates and voters keep acting like turds in a cess pool. If the American voters prefer Hitler or Stalin ... I will find some place else to live or die. My ancestors left their old country, I can do the same.