I want to start by prefacing the fact I am talking about Islam, and not Muslims.
It may seem strange to separate the two, but in reality there is a big separation.
It's easy to find posts and news against muslims anywhere. I feel muslim persecution is completely wrong. These are people too. Quite frankly if you live in North America, the odds of you ever meeting an extremist Muslim who lives in here is minuscule at best. Most muslims are peaceful, loving people. They are just like the Xtians who haven't read the whole bible, or if they have, they've simply glossed over the negative parts of it. Muslims tend to ignore all the calls for the death penalty in the Koran.
This is where the problem begins though. The Koran itself, much like the bible is a terrible book which has been sold as the word of god. Had these books simply been sold as literature, there wouldn't be much issue. However, that isn't the case.
So the Koran has 109 verses alone on holy war. What calls for it, ways to conduct it, and so on. It has misogyny, rape, pedophilia, and plenty of reasons to kill. Now for the 99.999% of people who read or are taught form the book, these points mostly go ignored. Just ask a Muslim about one of these verses and most likely the response given begins with a stutter, that stutter indicating they are digging for a way to either justify, or to move past this very glaring issue.
The big issue is that 0.0001% of people. I know it seems like a really small percentage, but with the population of Islam around 1.5 Billion people, that begins to cause a problem. Estimates by world wide intelligence agencies approximate the number of religious extremists who identify themselves as a part of one of the many extremists sects to be around 200,000 members. 200,000 out of 1.5 Billion. Very, very small percentage. So what's the issue?
Look at this from another perspective. I have a new cure all pill. It cures cancer, aids, you name it. There may be mild side effect, some people may even become slightly bigoted from it. However, guaranteed, 1 out of every 7500 people who take the pill will become a murderous lunatic who will kill anyone who doesn't conform to their ideals. So, out of 7500, most would be normal, some will be jerks, some become bigots, but only 1 will go on a rampage. On top of that, these people will seek out one another and form a group who's sole purpose is to eradicate anyone not like them. If this pill were real, would it ever see the light of day at your nearest drug store? Would you risk taking such a pill? That pill is the Koran. Most people are fine, some jerks, but 1 in 7500 become extremists.
For sure the bible has it's fair share of these very issues.
The koran, much like the bible, has built these fail safes into itself as to prevent people from asking questions. Just even thinking of it could be considered a sin and cause for punishment. It has even convinced millions of women that they are not the equals of men and should act accordingly. There is even a verse stating if a woman does not succumb to her husbands desire that she will be cursed that night.
At some point the world has to admit that these teachings are dangerous. There is just too much of a risk for someone to become an extremist when you have so many followers. Imagine if the Pope today came out and stated that Xtians should kill gay people, of course a majority of folks would ignore this command, but what of the bottom 1% of the geniuses who will follow word for word? Is it worth the risk?
Now what's the solution? Well, education would be best, but it's going to take a lot of work by the rest of the world to do so.
Thoughts, replies...
Only reason and education can hope to pierce the dark void of ignorance.
And sadly these cannot be forced, only accepted. Therein lies the difficulty of progress.
Who is considered an extremist and why?
Where did you get the 0.0001% from?
http://youtu.be/g7TAAw3oQvg
A consider an extremist anyone who follows the doctrine to the letter. The thing is with Islam, an extremist will be a killer, same for Xtians. There are several other religions which an extremist wouldn't be a murderer or a bigot. Take Jainism for example, they are complete pacifists. The extremists in that religion don't even eat meat byproducts, and are completely concerned with even accidentally killing insects. They believe all life is precious. The more moderate ones are vegetarians, and just go about their day without worrying about insects. Some of them aren't even vegetarians which people could consider them as a reformed type of Jain. There are a couple others like this.
An extremist muslim will want to punish anyone with death for apostasy, and all other non believers. I've argued this before, by a muslim, or xtian to not fully follow their doctrine to the letter means they are living in conflict with it. They are good people, but are in fact poor versions of muslim or xtian. The extremists are only doing what they are told to do in their holy texts. They don't actually believe they are doing evil, instead they are doing god's work.
There's my definition.
When "judging" Christianity, people here refer to the OT, and the worst chapters from it, as if the NT has never existed.
In Islam it is impossible to make any changes to the religion because the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and mere humans cannot alter is, modify it. It would be blasphemy punishable by death.
Altering any holy text = death ... same for OT, same for NT. If you chose to live in fear, you have already surrendered.
Holy texts aren't meant to be guides to proper behavior. Lay people don't know this, because lay people are ... idiots. The clergy knows this, because clergy aren't ... idiots. There is an automatic disconnect between clergy and lay people over this. Usually the clergy keep their mouth shut, move on, hopes the lay idiots move on to something else. If clergy (the educated kind of course) were straight with the laity, they would be fired or killed. Being clergy is like getting on the tiger. The problem isn't getting on the tiger, the problem comes when you try to get off ;-)
So one can argue (literal interpretation) of text A is better than (literal interpretation) of text B. Much of the NT is better than the Koran. The Koran is very similar to the OT, it comes from similar people. The NT wasn't written by illiterate fishermen from Galilee. The clearest example of how it came about, are the trippy parts of the Gospel of Mary (of Mandala, Freudian slip). People were doing this kind of thing in Boulder Colorado in the 60s-70s. Peace, man.
Quote from: RCnal on April 07, 2016, 10:49:54 AM
The Koran itself, much like the bible is a terrible book which has been sold as the word of god. Had these books simply been sold as literature, there wouldn't be much issue. However, that isn't the case.
The company training manual should be free.
Quote from: Baruch on April 07, 2016, 01:00:12 PM
The clergy knows this, because clergy aren't ... idiots.
I was talking to a Christian missionary and other heavily dipped folks at Library Thing. I learned that the educated Christians are taking the whole Bible as allegory, except for the divinity of Jesus. They state that the lambs shouldn't be let in on this joke for their own good.
Quote from: pr126 on April 07, 2016, 12:08:25 PM
Who is considered an extremist and why?
Where did you get the 0.0001% from?
http://youtu.be/g7TAAw3oQvg
I forgot which site I was on, the number of actual people the UN estimates is a part of extremist Islam is just around 200K. So taking 1.5 Billion, which is a ratio of 1/7500. If you have any updated sources I'd love to have them. I know the Muslim population is a number which is floated around to be between 1.5 and 1.7.
Another point ... Muslims are not homogeneous. No huge group is. Indonesian Muslims are almost pacifist (because before they became Muslim, they were Buddhists and Hindus). African-American Muslims are primarily African-American in terms of their problems. Real Arab Muslims (Bin Laden being a perfect example) are the most WASP of WASP folks within Islam.
QuoteI forgot which site I was on, the number of actual people the UN estimates is a part of extremist Islam is just around 200K. So taking 1.5 Billion, which is a ratio of 1/7500. If you have any updated sources I'd love to have them. I know the Muslim population is a number which is floated around to be between 1.5 and 1.7.
The UN is run by the Islamic countries. The UN has become irrelevant a long time ago.
I would not put any credibility in their assessment.
We are quite happy repeating the panacea "Most Muslims Are Peaceful" ad nauseam.
And that's all we need to know. Go back to sleep.
Quote from: pr126 on April 07, 2016, 10:32:27 PM
The UN is run by the Islamic countries. The UN has become irrelevant a long time ago.
I would not put any credibility in their assessment.
If a source refutes your views, its automatically invalidated because its controlled by the "enemy". No evidence required. After all, they said something you don't agree with so what further evidence do we need that they're wrong?
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 07, 2016, 11:11:07 PM
If a source refutes your views, its automatically invalidated because its controlled by the "enemy". No evidence required. After all, they said something you don't agree with so what further evidence do we need that they're wrong?
Applies to both sides.
Quote from: pr126 on April 07, 2016, 11:29:13 PM
Applies to both sides.
Theres another tactic. If you can't refute a criticism, focus on bringing your opposition down to your level so the criticism is moot and you no longer have to address it.
Quote from: pr126 on April 07, 2016, 10:32:27 PM
The UN is run by the Islamic countries. The UN has become irrelevant a long time ago.
I would not put any credibility in their assessment.
We are quite happy repeating the panacea "Most Muslims Are Peaceful" ad nauseam.
And that's all we need to know. Go back to sleep.
The UN was toast when the Soviet Union was given three votes in the General Assembly, and a permanent seat on the Security Counsel. The Truman administration used the UN one time, and let it become irrelevant after Korea. Letting Communist China in, in place of Taiwan, and on the permanent Security Counsel made it less relevant than the Senate of the Old Republic from Star Wars. Might as well have made Jar Jar an ambassador ;-) This is why you have SA as lead on the UN human rights counsel now ... shear absurdity.
Quote from: Nonsensei on April 07, 2016, 11:35:02 PM
Theres another tactic. If you can't refute a criticism, focus on bringing your opposition down to your level so the criticism is moot and you no longer have to address it.
I don't see why I should argue to
you that the UN has become a useless organisation that is expensive to run, for selfish corrupt people whose whole ambition is to make a good living out of it.
I think what is being asked is some proof to your claim. Im sure as an atheist you understand why this would be important. A link, source, something.
Quote from: pr126 on April 07, 2016, 12:36:14 PM
When "judging" Christianity, people here refer to the OT, and the worst chapters from it, as if the NT has never existed.
In Islam it is impossible to make any changes to the religion because the Quran is the immutable word of Allah, and mere humans cannot alter is, modify it. It would be blasphemy punishable by death.
Weird how each country has a different interpretation of Islam, then...
Also, evidence please that the U.N. is a Muslim run organization. Or is that just another mythos like Parisian and English "sharia zones" and the "Muslims becoming a majority" ( of about 8 percent) you pull out of your ass and tabloids to justify your xenophobia?
Raheel Raza is one of those brave and rare Muslims who is willing to discuss and confront the significant problems within Islam (and like her contempories, sadly, gets death threats from her so called "fellow" Muslims for her efforts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk
I believe there is much more to the problem then just the extremists, namely the kind of tacit support it receives (for example 42% of French Muslims aged 18-29 are okay with killing innocent people via suicide bombing)
I suppose it also depends on what you define as extreme. Raheel considers these kinds of beliefs extreme, and I have tough time disagreeing with her:
53% want Sharia law in Muslim majority countries.
52% support whippings/amputations.
51% support the stoning of unfaithful spouses.
I wish I could like this comment 100 times.
Agreed, that there are far more issues. I expanded on this idea in a discussion I had recently with the same analogy of the miracle pill. If you wouldn't let a pill like that out in the market, how can we justify letting a book out like this.
Parents around the world fight over violence and content ratings of video games and movies. They force consumers to have to buy things based on a reasonable age for fear of these images hurting the way a child thinks in the future. Yet we allow a book which is more graphic than most of these entertainment media and label it the truths of life and the path to god. Absolutely ridiculous.
Abrahamic scripture is for adults only. Sometimes not even for adults ;-)
Quote from: RCnal on April 08, 2016, 05:10:16 PM
I wish I could like this comment 100 times.
Agreed, that there are far more issues. I expanded on this idea in a discussion I had recently with the same analogy of the miracle pill. If you wouldn't let a pill like that out in the market, how can we justify letting a book out like this.
Parents around the world fight over violence and content ratings of video games and movies. They force consumers to have to buy things based on a reasonable age for fear of these images hurting the way a child thinks in the future. Yet we allow a book which is more graphic than most of these entertainment media and label it the truths of life and the path to god. Absolutely ridiculous.
I think its a tragic irony;
Mohammed, who would be considered a violent, depraved, and extraordinary petty individual under almost any other circumstances, poured so much of those qualities into the religion he founded.
Its astonishing anyone considers him to be an ideal role model.
Unfortunately most people are indifferent of Islam unless and until they are personally affected.
All the bad things happens to other people far away. Why worry?
The people in Europe, and Africa and elsewhere whose children were raped, sold to slavery, their properties destroyed, family members murdered, and live in fear think differently.
The relatives of those who were murdered or themselves injured because of Islam in America also think differently.
No one should be indifferent, or wilfully ignorant of Islam.
Quote from: pr126 on April 09, 2016, 03:11:21 AM
Unfortunately most people are indifferent of Islam unless and until they are personally affected.
All the bad things happens to other people far away. Why worry?
The people in Europe, and Africa and elsewhere whose children were raped, sold to slavery, their properties destroyed, family members murdered, and live in fear think differently.
The relatives of those who were murdered or themselves injured because of Islam in America also think differently.
No one should be indifferent, or wilfully ignorant of Islam.
Heres the thing, nobody here IS indifferent to or ignorant of Islam. Not agreeing with your views on Islam does not automatically make us ignorant or indifferent. To you, anyone who is a Muslim is either a terrorist or a supporter of terrorists and anyone who disagrees with that is essentially a brainwashed idiot.
I think you're the one who has been brainwashed. Somehow, someone or something convinced you to ignore common sense and believe that 1.6 billion human beings are engaged in a global conspiracy to kill everyone not in their group and take over the world.
I guess I have way more faith in the failings of humanity than you do. I don't think you could get 1.6 billion people to even unanimously agree on the color of an orange.
Quote from: Cocoa Beware on April 09, 2016, 02:59:11 AM
I think its a tragic irony;
Mohammed, who would be considered a violent, depraved, and extraordinary petty individual under almost any other circumstances, poured so much of those qualities into the religion he founded.
Its astonishing anyone considers him to be an ideal role model.
Its all about the cute camels ;-)
Nonsensei - I get angry at non-uniform stereotyped groups of people from time to time ... but I let it wash over me, and have a wee dram ;-) If Muhammad had allowed alcohol (ironically now an Arabic word) things would have been much more chill.
Quote from: pr126 on April 09, 2016, 03:11:21 AM
Unfortunately most people are indifferent of Islam unless and until they are personally affected.
All the bad things happens to other people far away. Why worry?
The people in Europe, and Africa and elsewhere whose children were raped, sold to slavery, their properties destroyed, family members murdered, and live in fear think differently.
The relatives of those who were murdered or themselves injured because of Islam in America also think differently.
No one should be indifferent, or wilfully ignorant of Islam.
If 1.6 Billion people were even half as bad as you make them out to be, none of us would be here. Not a force on earth could stop such a group!
Quote from: RCnal on April 09, 2016, 09:45:00 AM
If 1.6 Billion people were even half as bad as you make them out to be, none of us would be here. Not a force on earth could stop such a group!
That is the general idea ... in the minds of the Caliphate promoters.