When veterans parade their time fighting for their country and trample on ordinary citizens when the citizens are trying to change the government without use of weapons or violence. When a citizen didn't ask for a veteran to go to the middle east and kill people just so they come back and bully you into thinking you shouldn't have rights because you didn't join the military because you don't want to hurt anyone. For a person to dislike current America only to be screamed at by a veteran that said "my brothers died for you" so you shouldn't question America. For a pacifist or someone that really doesn't want to hut another will get punched by a veteran, because said veteran has a ignorant hate towards said pacifism. So on Veterans Day you look at a veteran with disgust, so when you find that the public say support our troops like Uncle Sam in the Vietnam war, you want to throw up. When you find veterans who are a okay complaining about using your tax dollars and it isn't enough, you have anger issues.
When a Society parades a group of ex soldiers as heroes and says they can have everything and they trample on ordinary citizens doesn't that piss you off? Tis a feeling I can't let go, when I ask for none of this crap, and yet i'm treated as a second class citizens because I'm not a veteran, or a person that likes to use weapons that symbolize war and destruction and parade it around and beat people physically or mentally if not for such weapons or ideas.
This is my piece on such an issue.
Considering the fact that there are several veterans on the forum that don't do, as far as I know, any of what you are talking about,
I would have to say you are painting a segment of society in a broad stereotype that is not necessarily accurate. Many of the people like Oathkeepers are not veterans but rednecks who see themselves as patriots. Likewise if you look at the KKK or any other racist/homophobic group, you will find veterans among them, certainly. But that doesn't single them out as a group of haters by themselves.
Whatever. Rant away. I'm a veteran who supports your right of free speech.
As a practical pacifist & someone highly against the war culture of America... no I cant say I share your feelings. Of course I grew up in a military household and have spent probably a third or more of my life on military bases so I am a bit biased but still. The veterans who do the shit you say? Yeah... fuck them. But just like I don't hate all white people for propping up a society of violence and oppression towards minorities I don't hate all veterans just because even a fair amount of them are bad seeds.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PM
When veterans parade their time fighting for their country and trample on ordinary citizens when the citizens are trying to change the government without use of weapons or violence.
That's the best way to change government.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PMFor a person to dislike current America only to be screamed at by a veteran that said "my brothers died for you" so you shouldn't question America.
No, they didn't die for you. It is a hard question a lot of veterans face though, especially in light of how things are going in Iraq. Why did we spend nearly a decade there, only to have it all seem like it was for nothing? The best I can manage is, they died for each other, but their deaths were largely in vain. That's hard for people to hear though, and it's hard for me to process.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PMWhen a Society parades a group of ex soldiers as heroes and says they can have everything and they trample on ordinary citizens doesn't that piss you off?
I blame society for this a little bit too, because we like veterans tributes at football games and putting little yellow ribbons on our cars. We teach kids that they should be thankful for the sacrifices of our "heroes" without teaching them what they're sacrificing or why. Society as a whole seems to want to put veterans up on a pedestal, and many veterans have found that they're comfortable there.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PMTis a feeling I can't let go, when I ask for none of this crap, and yet i'm treated as a second class citizens because I'm not a veteran, or a person that likes to use weapons that symbolize war and destruction and parade it around and beat people physically or mentally if not for such weapons or ideas.
There are many veterans that have a sense of entitlement, but I don't think it's any different than the entitlement displayed by other groups. It just has different criteria. It's sad that many veterans consider themselves above civilians and pretend like civilians don't know what hardship or stress is. Many veterans do act like they have the market cornered on things like heroism, patriotism, and sacrifice when there are dozens of jobs that are just as stressful, even more deadly, far less sexy, and just as important to upholding the American way of life. Some jobs that come to mind are truck drivers, commercial fishermen, loggers, and construction workers.
As a veteran myself, I feel awkward when someone thanks me for my service (I volunteered and got paid well both monetarily and benefits-wise to serve) or for fighting for our freedom (I didn't: I have no idea why I went to Afghanistan when I look at the big picture but anyone with an ounce of logic would know it had nothing to do with upholding the American way of life).
My son never viewed it as anything but a job, and was injured and damaged enough to affect the rest of his life, including bouts of PTSD and a few surgeries. He has had to fight for VA benefits and medical retirement money they owe him as determined by the people that won't pay him.
The world is full of assholes. Unfortunately quite a few of them are veterans.
Reason being I grew up with veterans in family and friends but they tend to hurt my feelings a bit and living in texas doesn't help.
p.s. I know not all veterans are like this and I do think greatly of veterans who didn't just do it for the money and the after effects but to try to help people and protect the country. I think that's great. However to come back and bully others is not so great.
I know I'm gonna get hated and disliked for this topic more than the other topics.
Quote from: stromboli on December 13, 2015, 06:11:55 PM
I'm a veteran who supports your right of free speech.
Never got that. You don't. The constitution supports my right of speech, but if your gonna say as a veteran "I fought for you rights" I could say as a citizen "I payed for the tools, food and medical with my taxes to have you fight". Of course many people will say I'm a horrible person for saying that to a vet, but if I don't post the issue who will and who will stand up for those that get bullied by vets.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 07:39:31 PM
Never got that. You don't. The constitution supports my right of speech, but if your gonna say as a veteran "I fought for you rights" I could say as a citizen "I payed for the tools, food and medical with my taxes to have you fight". Of course many people will say I'm a horrible person for saying that to a vet, but if I don't post the issue who will and who will stand up for those that get bullied by vets.
That is all irrelevant. He never said "I gave you the right to free speech"... he merely responded to your implications that veterans would be against it by saying he is a veteran who isn't.
I'm curious as to what veterans you hang out with... because here in San Antonio (one of the largest military cities with the largest military hospital in the States) that has never been an issue... nor was it when I went to fort Bliss in El Paso (largest army base).
Quote from: Shiranu on December 13, 2015, 07:49:31 PM
That is all irrelevant. He never said "I gave you the right to free speech"... he merely responded to your implications that veterans would be against it by saying he is a veteran who isn't.
I'm curious as to what veterans you hang out with... because here in San Antonio (one of the largest military cities with the largest military hospital in the States) that has never been an issue... nor was it when I went to fort Bliss in El Paso (largest army base).
he never said but he implemented it and is enforced by society norms
I did twenty years in the USN. I'll let that speak for me.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 07:30:30 PM
p.s. I know not all veterans are like this and I do think greatly of veterans who didn't just do it for the money and the after effects but to try to help people and protect the country. I think that's great. However to come back and bully others is not so great.
I wouldn't say I see a lot of flat out bullying, but I often encounter a profound sense of smugness among veterans. In the last 24 hours, friends on my Facebook have posted the following memes:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/1zx16ki.jpg)
Yes, let's make fun of broke students for their "sense of entitlement" over wanting to be able to pay off student loans before they reach the age of 130 (unlike many other students in Western countries) by reminding them that we signed a contract agreeing to die if necessary to go to college. No matter who you are, the military is an extreme price to pay to get an education. Why not agree that college should be more affordable, not argue that it should remain out of reach for anyone that doesn't serve in the military?
(http://i68.tinypic.com/eug2z8.jpg)
Apparently the only way to be brave is to be a soldier. Fuck you Caitlyn Jenner: it doesn't take bravery to stand up and be who you are despite knowing the overwhelming amount of ridicule coming your way. Also, fuck all other people who stand up to bullies, kids with cancer, domestic violence survivors, first responders, good Samaritans, and anyone else who has dared to allow themselves to be called "brave." Sorry, that word is reserved only for soldiers.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/1w5qh.jpg)
So wait, you're saying fuck those burger flippers working in entry level jobs without an education demanding the right to work for a living wage? You know what else is an entry-level job that also requires no training of its new hires? The military. Besides, when you account for the full medical benefits for you and your family, housing allowance, COLA (for high cost of living areas), food allowance, education benefits from both the GI Bill and tuition assistance programs, and ability to earn a retirement pension after just 20 years (something virtually extinct in the American private sector), troops don't work for anything remotely close to minimum wage.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 08:24:25 PM
he never said but he implemented it and is enforced by society norms
It would really be good if you could learn to communicate in English. I don't know what that sentence means.
As in any section of society, no matter how you slice it, there are bullies. I would think you would have more problems with bullies in the classroom than you would veteran bullies. Bullies are everywhere, and I assume you feel about them as I do. They need to be called on their horrid behavior each and every time they try to bully somebody.
@Draconic Aiur - It sounds to me like this might have stemmed from a particular incident. Sure, there are some veterans out there who are assholes, but in my experience, most are pretty good guys who don't talk a lot of shit. But if you get in their face and tell them that you're a pacifist, don't like America, and you think that soldiers just want to hunt down and kill people, you should probably expect some push-back.
You might also want to consider that it's difficult for some veterans to transition back into civilian life. Not an excuse, just a possible reason. A soldier's mindset is quite a bit different than a civilians, and even more so when deployed.
Quote from: Jack89 on December 13, 2015, 10:56:21 PM
@Draconic Aiur - It sounds to me like this might have stemmed from a particular incident. Sure, there are some veterans out there who are assholes, but in my experience, most are pretty good guys who don't talk a lot of shit. But if you get in their face and tell them that you're a pacifist, don't like America, and you think that soldiers just want to hunt down and kill people, you should probably expect some push-back.
You might also want to consider that it's difficult for some veterans to transition back into civilian life. Not an excuse, just a possible reason. A soldier's mindset is quite a bit different than a civilians, and even more so when deployed.
I don't get in their face, they get in mine and other people's. Also my Facebook news feed is flooded by all that shit.
Most of them are conservative and christian so ugggh
There will always be people who think of themselves as more important than others and in no way do veterans have a monopoly on this. Both of my grandfathers were veterans, my father is, both of my brothers and one sister is and I'm a veteran. None of us have ever thought our veteran status entitles us to more than what the government promised. Those who think they're special or heroes more deserving are just as full of shit as anyone else who thinks of themselves as special and entitled. Sadly I've known plenty of veterans who never came close to anything you can consider as combat as the military has many different types of occupations from combat troops to electronic technicians to cooks to file clerks to mechanics. Many people in the military never leave the country. My brother spent 4 years guarding missiles in Great Falls Montana. He did basic in San Antonio then went directly to Montana for 4 years and the ONLY treat he ever faced were geese landing on the grounds. He was injured once playing softball though.
The point though is that he signed his name and for 6 years was at the beck and call of Uncle Sugar and could have at any time been sent to anywhere in the world to fight.
That's an obligation that should be honored and all to often is not and until just recently veteran status meant very little. Soldiers were fodder and tossed away once done.
Plenty of people make far to much about being a veteran. Some think merely being a veteran should entitle them to more, but the bottom line is that when your government asks you to be willing to sacrifice your life and you fulfill your obligation the government should be prepared to honor whatever promises they make when you enlist, no more, no less and nobody is entitled to be worshipped as a fucking hero.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PM
For a person to dislike current America only to be screamed at by a veteran that said "my brothers died for you" so you shouldn't question America.
It seems to me that most vets aren't like that. Most don't even mention their military past, or do so only in passing. It's just the ones that like to march around in their uniforms in the parades and call attention to themselves because they think they are important that tend to make me roll my eyes. But I don't think they make up the majority.
Well Im srry then
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 14, 2015, 03:29:16 PM
Well Im srry then
I must admit, that was not a response I was expecting. I'm impressed. You just much up a couple of notches in my estimation.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 14, 2015, 03:29:16 PM
Well Im srry then
Don't feel
too bad. If any or all of the things, that you described being done by vets, had happened to me, I might be just as jaded.
The way I see it, the U.S. might as well have conscription ... for poor people.
Quote from: Sal1981 on December 15, 2015, 01:22:47 PM
The way I see it, the U.S. might as well have conscription ... for poor people.
I got two bachelors and a masters out of being in the military.
And I got to shoot a lot of people too.
Quote from: Sal1981 on December 15, 2015, 01:22:47 PM
The way I see it, the U.S. might as well have conscription ... for poor people.
It was called the Vietnam war. And it is coming back to a poor neighborhood near you!
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 15, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
I got two bachelors and a masters out of being in the military.
And I got to shoot a lot of people too.
A win all around ... IMHO. I got a masters being part of the MIC, and many years of professional work/income. But I haven't gotten to shoot people yet ... maybe the best is still to come?
Quote from: Baruch on December 15, 2015, 06:33:15 PM
A win all around ... IMHO. I got a masters being part of the MIC, and many years of professional work/income. But I haven't gotten to shoot people yet ... maybe the best is still to come?
You have to put a chit in to get to shoot people, it's non-standard.
Damn. All I did was watch others pretend to shoot missiles and torpedoes.
I got to shot people while I was in the Army, too. But I did it with a pen and paper--background checks can really come back to bite you!
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 15, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
I got two bachelors and a masters out of being in the military.
And I got to shoot a lot of people too.
I got a BS and a modest pension. I mostly patched people up.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 15, 2015, 07:00:58 PM
I got to shot people while I was in the Army, too. But I did it with a pen and paper--background checks can really come back to bite you!
I shot people... with a camera. The only thing I got to shoot was a rabid dog, and I felt kinda bad about it.
Quote from: TomFoolery on December 15, 2015, 08:19:16 PM
I shot people... with a camera. The only thing I got to shoot was a rabid dog, and I felt kinda bad about it.
You jogged a memory for me TomFoolery. I was the official photo taker for my National Guard unit in I was in for 3 years. I even had a few photos published in the local paper.
Quote from: stromboli on December 13, 2015, 06:11:55 PM
Considering the fact that there are several veterans on the forum that don't do, as far as I know, any of what you are talking about,
I would have to say you are painting a segment of society in a broad stereotype that is not necessarily accurate. Many of the people like Oathkeepers are not veterans but rednecks who see themselves as patriots. Likewise if you look at the KKK or any other racist/homophobic group, you will find veterans among them, certainly. But that doesn't single them out as a group of haters by themselves.
Whatever. Rant away. I'm a veteran who supports your right of free speech.
This!
These guys that you're bad-mouthing put others as a priority before themselves, putting their lives on the line with the belief that it will make a positive change for their family and the people back home.
They also fight for your right to tell them that they're ass-hats. Some people that are sent over seas are complete assholes when they come back, I know one person that was a complete prick when he came back... but he also was a complete prick way before he decided to sign up for the military... There are plenty more people that go to to fight, come back and aren't assholes. Point is: you're over generalizing with what you personally perceived from a small selection of veterans.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=RKBcs9tNWg8
Yep, these soldiers are complete assholes, I mean just look at how they hug their dogs! I'm so ashamed of the human race.
And there are pets who are still waiting.
yeah, guess there are. There are many good soldiers, and many asshole ones, because thats people in general.
Quote from: Munch on December 20, 2015, 07:22:39 AM
yeah, guess there are. There are many good soldiers, and many asshole ones, because thats people in general.
Yeah, people doing what's needed, whatever their motivation.
The problem of assigning behavior traits to a specific group is that everyone has different motives for their actions. I know very few gung ho fuckers that want to kill the satanic infidels in the Middle East, and a whole bunch of people that served either for personal reasons/education (one of my reasons) /got drafted back in the day, whatever. Know exactly one (1) Vietnam vet that volunteered, an ex Navy Seal I used to work with. Definitely a gung ho motherfucker.
I also had a friend dead now from the effects of Agent Orange who had to fight for benefits every other year and another who begs outside of Walmart sitting in a wheelchair. My son has had to fight for his benefits even though they were awarded by the VA. I've learned to try to judge people one at a time. There are definitely asshats, but I personally try to avoid them.
Quote from: stromboli on December 20, 2015, 10:40:55 AMKnow exactly one (1) Vietnam vet that volunteered
Ahem, (2).
The only time I've ever used "I'm a veteran" in an argument was when arguing with some armchair general about the urgent need for other people to go out and fight wars that the armchair general thought were important enough to fight but not important enough to do anything about themselves. I don't believe our current several wars are worth it, and like many people in the military I'm not very much in favor of going to war.
So beyond that, I really am not sure exactly what the OP is talking about.
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on December 20, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
The only time I've ever used "I'm a veteran" in an argument was when arguing with some armchair general about the urgent need for other people to go out and fight wars that the armchair general thought were important enough to fight but not important enough to do anything about themselves. I don't believe our current several wars are worth it, and like many people in the military I'm not very much in favor of going to war.
So beyond that, I really am not sure exactly what the OP is talking about.
Agree on all points JH.
The Veterans' Lament (Originally "Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling.)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Flame war spotted. I'm out.
My brother is a nam vet, 90% of his posts are about vets and how hey deserve to be honored at every turn and twist. I'll honor someone when I want to, and certainly not when someone suggests I need to. The other 10% is about Obama being a traitor and of course the obligatory god posts.
Quote from: aitm on December 20, 2015, 04:49:24 PM
My brother is a nam vet, 90% of his posts are about vets and how hey deserve to be honored at every turn and twist. I'll honor someone when I want to, and certainly not when someone suggests I need to. The other 10% is about Obama being a traitor and of course the obligatory god posts.
This is why a peacetime draft is good for the country.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 20, 2015, 06:04:18 PM
This is why a peacetime draft is good for the country.
'taint controversial enow, laddies. kick 'er up a notch.
Btw, thanks for the poem. Haven't read Kipling in awhile.
Quote from: stromboli on December 20, 2015, 07:07:48 PM
'taint controversial enow, laddies. kick 'er up a notch.
I speak as a historian, not a veteran there.
Quote
Btw, thanks for the poem. Haven't read Kipling in awhile.
It rings true down the ages.
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on December 20, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
The only time I've ever used "I'm a veteran" in an argument was when arguing with some armchair general about the urgent need for other people to go out and fight wars that the armchair general thought were important enough to fight but not important enough to do anything about themselves. I don't believe our current several wars are worth it, and like many people in the military I'm not very much in favor of going to war.
So beyond that, I really am not sure exactly what the OP is talking about.
Yep
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 13, 2015, 06:01:38 PMWhen a Society parades a group of ex soldiers as heroes and says they can have everything and they trample on ordinary citizens doesn't that piss you off?
You mean the people that went out of their way to push themselves past their limits and then some, mentally and physically to do what was needed of them? Some of which, come back mentally and physically scarred and without some of the people that became as close as family to them?
I'm not a vet, nor do I like war or think it's the best answer to problems, but no. They completely deserve a day of recognition as well as a parade, including the few assholes that come out of those foxholes and are now vets.
Quote
Tis a feeling I can't let go, when I ask for none of this crap, and yet i'm treated as a second class citizens because I'm not a veteran, or a person that likes to use weapons that symbolize war and destruction and parade it around and beat people physically or mentally if not for such weapons or ideas.
You're entitled to your feelings/opinions, but I recommend you get your panties out of a bunch.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 20, 2015, 03:32:53 PM
Flame war spotted. I'm out.
I looked all over for a .gif of someone hitting a beehive and getting startled by the swarm that he pissed off... confused at why the hive would want to sting him for what he did. Couldn't find one though... Use your imagination to picture that image.
I said I was sorry ok? jeez
Quote from: aitm on December 20, 2015, 04:49:24 PM
My brother is a nam vet, 90% of his posts are about vets and how hey deserve to be honored at every turn and twist. I'll honor someone when I want to, and certainly not when someone suggests I need to. The other 10% is about Obama being a traitor and of course the obligatory god posts.
Maybe you're sick of hearing it, but honestly those guys who fought in Vietnam deserve an official apology from the federal government for starting the war, and another one from the general population for shitting on them when they came back.
Its always baffling to me when people shit on the soldiers. Talk about a group of people completely without the power to make any decisions. And in Vietnam they didn't even have a choice of whether or not to enlist. Any time you feel upset at the actions of a soldier on the battlefield or angry at the ignoble reasons we are taking a military action, just try to keep in mind that those soldiers are there under the orders of a politician. A politician YOU took part in electing.
I have a problem with the draft in that with many of the folks running for or currently serving in office in congress or even the whitehouse it becomes like the budget surpluses. Oh lookee! We have X dollars just sitting around not being spent so by all means let's spend them on MY pet project. If suddenly we have a huge surplus of able bodied men and women sitting around not fighting a war then we damned well better just go start one of them there wars to give them lazy fuckers something to do.. See the problem? These fuckers would start a war just because the gubnit is paying people to do nothing or at least that's how they'll see it.
No, I'd much rather have not enough people in the military and make them actually justify sending people off to die than just sending them off to die for no goddamned good reason...not that they'll ever find a good reason, but a shortage of people at the very least gives them a reason to have to think of a reason.
If there's a legitimate reason for a draft like a REAL war and not the imaginary bullshit wars that's one thing, but starting wars just to give people something to do is quite another.
We don't need a huge surplus of people in the military, we wouldn't draft 50,000,000 people. The draft would be to fill certain slots, not prepare to invade Normandy. (Even in WWII we limited the number of divisions we were going to develop.)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 21, 2015, 05:28:02 AM
We don't need a huge surplus of people in the military, we wouldn't draft 50,000,000 people. The draft would be to fill certain slots, not prepare to invade Normandy. (Even in WWII we limited the number of divisions we were going to develop.)
We had roughly half the population in WW II, that we have now. We had 16 million in uniform in WW II, so a real draft would involve putting 30 million into uniform. But not all of those were, or would be, combat positions. But realistically, a real war will last a day at most ... then nuclear winter. There wouldn't even be time to staff the draft boards.
Quote from: Baruch on December 21, 2015, 07:20:46 AM
We had roughly half the population in WW II, that we have now. We had 16 million in uniform in WW II, so a real draft would involve putting 30 million into uniform. But not all of those were, or would be, combat positions. But realistically, a real war will last a day at most ... then nuclear winter. There wouldn't even be time to staff the draft boards.
Yep, nine out of ten GIs in WWII didn't see combat. But you keep thinking we need a lot of people to do this, one out of ten. First off, that would be wildly expensive. Second, why would we do that?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 21, 2015, 05:28:02 AM
We don't need a huge surplus of people in the military, we wouldn't draft 50,000,000 people. The draft would be to fill certain slots, not prepare to invade Normandy. (Even in WWII we limited the number of divisions we were going to develop.)
We tend to think of draft during Vietnam, but a draft that incorporated US youth into programs that need developing that require cheap labor and bodies for a short duration would make sense. Also the pay back would be to fund their education all or in part with GI bill. That is how I got my degree. Done right, it could be a win-win proposition.
Quote from: stromboli on December 21, 2015, 10:59:58 AM
We tend to think of draft during Vietnam, but a draft that incorporated US youth into programs that need developing that require cheap labor and bodies for a short duration would make sense. Also the pay back would be to fund their education all or in part with GI bill. That is how I got my degree. Done right, it could be a win-win proposition.
The first peace-time draft, 1940, was for one year active duty. Just enough time for basic competence with the more forgiving weapons of war. Today this would mean that the specialists could specialize and the troopers could troop. Some percentage of them will remain in the military, perhaps surprised at their choice but it would be an informed decision.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 21, 2015, 07:48:03 AM
Yep, nine out of ten GIs in WWII didn't see combat. But you keep thinking we need a lot of people to do this, one out of ten. First off, that would be wildly expensive. Second, why would we do that?
If you had to fight China + Russia in conventional terms ... you would need lots of infantry. Just flying about bombing people ... like we did with ISIS ... doesn't get the job done. Of course conventional war is a fantasy option. Also when you go to war, cost is no object, corpses are.
Quote from: Baruch on December 21, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
If you had to fight China + Russia in conventional terms ... you would need lots of infantry. Just flying about bombing people ... like we did with ISIS ... doesn't get the job done. Of course conventional war is a fantasy option. Also when you go to war, cost is no object, corpses are.
"Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
Quote from: Baruch on December 21, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
If you had to fight China + Russia in conventional terms ... you would need lots of infantry. Just flying about bombing people ... like we did with ISIS ... doesn't get the job done. Of course conventional war is a fantasy option. Also when you go to war, cost is no object, corpses are.
Those of us who served know there is a lot of other incidental benefits to being in "a service". Being a boy from small town Utah, I gained more knowledge of the world in general from being in other time zones, other countries and mingling with people from other cultures. Far more so than I would have done serving a mission for the Mormon church, something I inadvertently avoided. I am a more well rounded person from being exposed to a wider world.
Quote"Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
Lol. Great line from a great movie.
Quote from: stromboli on December 21, 2015, 01:37:01 PM
Those of us who served know there is a lot of other incidental benefits to being in "a service". Being a boy from small town Utah, I gained more knowledge of the world in general from being in other time zones, other countries and mingling with people from other cultures. Far more so than I would have done serving a mission for the Mormon church, something I inadvertently avoided. I am a more well rounded person from being exposed to a wider world.
In boot camp, 1969, half my company was from small towns in Indiana. The other half was from New York, mostly Harlem. This was not an accident.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 21, 2015, 01:39:26 PM
In boot camp, 1969, half my company was from small towns in Indiana. The other half was from New York, mostly Harlem. This was not an accident.
In '68 in my boot camp, there were something like 3 blacks. That was for the entire company. I had boot at Ft. Lewis, but I don't think that had anything to do with it. Looking back on that, it is a bit odd. But we did have two guys drink a can of brasso to get out of the Army. It worked--but caskets were never my thing.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 21, 2015, 06:00:03 PM
In '68 in my boot camp, there were something like 3 blacks. That was for the entire company. I had boot at Ft. Lewis, but I don't think that had anything to do with it. Looking back on that, it is a bit odd. But we did have two guys drink a can of brasso to get out of the Army. It worked--but caskets were never my thing.
Indiana was Klan-heavy back then, I suspect there was a jiggery-pokery done with the date for joining up. I had joined in February.
Good thing was that I met a guy that I served with up until 1971, damn good man even if I couldn't understand him with he got excited.
We're all the same age. Boot camp San Diego summer of '68. One (1) black man in my company. Most were from Michigan a bunch of (according to them) swingin' hip, do it now guys that all talked street lingo. Me a small town Utah boy scared the black man had a straight razor ( I had heard stories) and was going to slit my white throat while I slept. Shit you learn. On the other hand I spoke a little Spanish from high school and because I knew Mexican sheepherders growing up. The one real tough guy in the company was a Mexican American I got to know. dude was badass; a slight, soft spoken guy who had fought Golden Gloves and had the fastest hands I have ever seen. He could punch your lights out faster than you could get your hands up above waist level.