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http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html

QuoteWhenever tragedy strikes in America, some conservative politician or pundit will inevitably blame it on secularism. In the aftermath of the shooting at Umpqua Community College, for example, Fox host Bill O'Reilly cited weakening religion as the culprit. "As the world becomes more secular," he declared, "civilized restraints to bad behavior drop." Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee offered similar sentiments after the 2012 school shooting in Newtown, Conn., blaming such wanton violence on the fact that "we have systematically removed God from our schools."

The theory is simple: If people become less religious, then society will decay. Crime will skyrocket, violence will rise, and once-civilized life will degenerate into immorality and depravity. It's an old, widespread notion. And it's demonstrably false.

If it were true that when belief in God weakens, societal well-being diminishes, then we should see abundant evidence for this. But we don't. In fact, we find just the opposite: Those societies today that are the most religious â€" where faith in God is strong and religious participation is high â€" tend to have the highest violent crime rates, while those societies in which faith and church attendance are the weakest â€" the most secular societies â€" tend to have the lowest.

We can start at the international level. The most secular societies today include Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Czech Republic, Estonia, Japan, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Germany, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Hungary, China and Belgium. The most religious societies include Nigeria, Uganda, the Philippines, Pakistan, Morocco, Egypt, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Colombia, Senegal, Malawi, Indonesia, Brazil, Peru, Jordan, Algeria, Ghana, Venezuela, Mexico and Sierra Leone.

It is the highly secularized countries that tend to fare the best in terms of crime rates, prosperity, equality, freedom, democracy, women's rights, human rights, educational attainment and life expectancy. (Although there are exceptions, such as Vietnam and China, which have famously poor human rights records.) And those nations with the highest rates of religiosity tend to be the most problem-ridden in terms of high violent crime rates, high infant mortality rates, high poverty rates and high rates of corruption.

Take homicide. According to the United Nations' 2011 Global Study on Homicide, of the 10 nations with the highest homicide rates, all are very religious, and many â€" such as Colombia, Mexico, El Salvador and Brazil â€" are among the most theistic nations in the world. Of the nations with the lowest homicide rates, nearly all are very secular, with seven ranking among the least theistic nations, such as Sweden, Japan, Norway and the Netherlands.

Now consider the flip side: peacefulness. According to the nonprofit organization Vision of Humanity, which publishes an annual Global Peace Index, each of the 10 safest and most peaceful nations in the world is also among the most secular, least God-believing in the world. Most of the least safe and peaceful nations, conversely, are extremely religious.

As professor Stephen Law of the University of London observed: "If a decline in religiosity were the primary cause [of social ills], then we would expect those countries that have seen the greatest decline to have the most serious problems. But that is not the case."

What about within the United States? According to the latest study from the Pew Research Center, the 10 states that report the highest levels of belief in God are Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee and Oklahoma (tied with Utah). The 10 states with the lowest levels of belief in God are Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Alaska, Oregon and California. And as is the case in the rest of the world, when it comes to nearly all standard measures of societal health, including homicide rates, the least theistic states generally fare much better than the most theistic. Consider child-abuse fatality rates: Highly religious Mississippi's is twice that of highly secular New Hampshire's, and highly religious Kentucky's is four times higher than highly secular Oregon's.

It is, of course, impossible to conclude from any of this data that secularism, in and of itself, causes societal well-being, or that religiosity causes social ills. Peacefulness, prosperity and overall societal goodness are undoubtedly caused by multiple, complex factors â€" economic, geographic, cultural, political, historical and so forth. That said, it is clear that a strong or increased presence of secularism isn't the damaging threat to society so many continually claim it to be. If only the likes of O'Reilly and Huckabee would take heed.

Basically this just rubber stamps what we already knew, but its a good article.

Chicken vs egg.  Does poverty drive people into religion, or does religion drive people into poverty?  I don't think violence directly correlates ... Americans for instance are just violent people.

My thoughts were pretty much in line with Baruch's. Does religion cause people to be more violent, or do violent people have a greater preference for religion?

I'm not convinced that religion causes people to be violent. I think it's likely that violent people use religion as an excuse for their behavior. In a theoretical world without religion, I think those violent people would just find something else to justify their behavior, such as race, politics, nationality, economic status, etc.

If you look at religion strictly by what it teaches, almost all of them advocate peace and charity. Based on what I've read in the Protestant New Testament, if you claim to be a Christian, but you don't feed the hungry, aid the widows, or visit those in prison, and just live a self-centered life, you'll go to Hell just like any nonbeliever. Basically, God does not give free tickets to Heaven to whoever joins his son's fan club; you have to prove your faith by being the most decent human being possible.

It's almost impossible to correlate violence and religion. In the article, what is compared is highly secularized societies with others. What needs to be taken into consideration is that secularized societies are more often democracies with the rule of law well instituted and constitutional rights for minorities, including religious freedoms for all. This in turn will foster such attitudes yielding a lesser crime rate than in those societies where these rights are not guaranteed.

Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2015, 02:41:35 PM
Chicken vs egg.  Does poverty drive people into religion, or does religion drive people into poverty?  I don't think violence directly correlates ... Americans for instance are just violent people.

Is that a serious question? Yes, religion drives poverty! It's undeniable, as plain to see and smell as dogshit on the sidewalk! It encourages poverty by appealing, above all, to the poor. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall inherit the kingdom. You don't want to be the rich man, for then obtaining your heavenly inheritance will become tough as getting a camel through the eye of a needle. Do not worry where shall you sleep, what shall you wear, how shall you eat, for your god will take care of you as surely as he clothes and feeds the birds! Such nonsensical attitudes make those who soak them up more docile, less competitive, more trusting, and therefore easier prey. People expect they will be guided and taken care of, their ambition goes slack, and they become generally less thoughtful regarding any matters of truth or social justice, and this makes the mistreatment of others easier for them to justify. The latter happens because when a Christian with avarice and ambition sees a way that he can take advantage of a situation, he can presume that it was presented by his god, who wants him to prosper, and he may even justify his enrichment at another's expense is justified because he's the faithful one! Thereby predatory Christians feed more easily on other people, while those who are sensitized to soft-pedaled Christianity can become anybody's easy victim. There's nothing there to motivate win-win solutions between anybody. Therefore, poverty does follow religiosity, and that violence follows poverty is an established fact.

Peacewithoutgod ... really?  All atheists are millionaires?  That is just the reverse of the horrible "prosperity gospel" that some Evangelical Christians have preached.  That was an ideological statement on your part ... not based on reason or evidence.  Not that ideology is bad ... I engage in my own ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on November 10, 2015, 07:12:23 PM
Peacewithoutgod ... really?  All atheists are millionaires?  That is just the reverse of the horrible "prosperity gospel" that some Evangelical Christians have preached.  That was an ideological statement on your part ... not based on reason or evidence.  Not that ideology is bad ... I engage in my own ;-)

None of that gabble made any sense, Baruch - where did I say or imply that atheists are all rich? I'm an atheist, and I'm just barely existing these days on my own. The "prosperity gospel" which I implied, which you so referred to it as, is practiced by the more ambitious and predatory breed of Christians against their gullible sheep.

What, me be ideological? That is in itself an ideological statement! As for reason and evidence on the prospertiy gospel, there's no dearth of that in most American churches, and those behind the pulpit make the headlines for their practice of frequently enough.

You need a hobby.

Am I misreading?  Were you overgeneralizing?

"Therefore, poverty does follow religiosity, and that violence follows poverty is an established fact."

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2015, 06:04:50 PM
Am I misreading?  Were you overgeneralizing?

"Therefore, poverty does follow religiosity, and that violence follows poverty is an established fact."

Yes, you misread me. No, I did not overgeneralize, (technically I'm not sure that's a real word, or validly applicable). But to generalize, poor education leads to poverty, and poverty leads to poorer education, and from that cometh violence. I was better educated than I ever was lucky. See my update.

To all, Religious people are the ones to blame for everything wrong today. Now Religion is the only way to find GOD but more importantly a Relationship with Him is what changes ones mind..

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Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 07:41:38 PM
To all, Religious people are the ones to blame for everything wrong today. Now Religion is the only way to find GOD but more importantly a Relationship with Him is what changes ones mind..

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Now, whatever do you mean by that? How can I have a relationship with somebody who doesn't exist? Do you really think people here haven't considered any possible argument you could ever give that would ever convince us otherwise?

We don't dismiss your assertion that such a person exists out of hand, but we are all too familiar with the anecdotes and logically fallacious arguments which is all a deity apologist can offer as an excuse for evidence. Just because I cannot prove your claim is false (because it is by design unfalsifiable) doesn't mean I will not always come overwhelmingly closer to disproving it than you ever will at proving it. Beginning with your No True Scotsman fallacy on others who claim your god - they may be more "religious" than you (however you define that), but my guess is that your group builds tax-free meeting places at the expense of secular taxpayers, and you don't protest political actions which support your beliefs.

Also, on account of your beliefs, you will never make any hard and honest evaluations regarding the true social impact of social, political, and educational policies which help you maintain your deity delusion, but will cling forever to the ideological fantasies which whitewash them in your eyes.

Nice wording...Okay for one you trying to disprove GOD tells me you know something about GOD. The real proof that GOD lives is not in any secular minds or educational facilities, the proof is in the man that walks and lives his life with the mind set of Pleasing GOD not man. The fruit of the tree should tell you what kind of tree your dealing with. Right..Open your mind. Now as for as my group as you say, we are people that don't need tax payers money For a meeting place because A REAL GOD meets his people any where. And GOD DOES not need to protest to get people to believe , people that believe protest.



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Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Nice wording...Okay for one you trying to disprove GOD tells me you know something about GOD.

I don't need to disprove your god, the burden of proof is on the claimant - which happens to be you.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
The real proof that GOD lives is not in any secular minds or educational facilities, the proof is in the man that walks and lives his life with the mind set of Pleasing GOD not man.

Now that sort of reasoning is mighty circular - how do you not make yourself dizzy with it?

Doing a great job of pleasing an imaginary friend does not in any way make him real outside of your own head.

Do you think it's in any way possible to please your god without pleasing anyone else? You would say yes to that, you would point to stories of such happenings, but I'll bet you never met anyone who can be seen as pleasing god without pleasing others, you never will meet such a person, you never have been such a person, and you never will be. Nobody really does anything good for reasons other than personal satisfaction and for other people than the god who they use to make themselves look properly humble (as they are so taught, believing they cannot accept due credit without being a goat-horned narcissist).

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
The fruit of the tree should tell you what kind of tree your dealing with. Right..Open your mind.

I did, and that's when I began asking questions. I read your bible, all of it. Don't try it yourself unless you're prepared to deal with what you'll find there! The Tree of Knowledge has its price, but it is very rich fruit, and it innoculates you well against such nonsense as this.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Now as for as my group as you say, we are people that don't need tax payers money For a meeting place because A REAL GOD meets his people any where. And GOD DOES not need to protest to get people to believe , people that believe protest.

But do you in fact keep a tax-free meeting place? If not, then that was a very dodgy answer. Also, do you participate in political actions? I'd caution you to be honest this time, but I've come to understand that those who think they have a personal relationship with a powerful father in the sky are so morally corrupted by their delusions that they truly don't know the difference between honesty and lies. You probably aren't religious, but worse than that - insane!

This debate is becoming mighty circular...I am not sure who you got your information from but until we are talking the same language we will never understand each other..I am here for greater knowledge and understanding..Question. Do you believe in something much greater than you? If not we are wasting our time. But if you do WHAT.

Believing in GOD is spiritual to me and with that comes wisdom.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 09:47:14 PM
This debate is becoming mighty circular...I am not sure who you got your information from but until we are talking the same language we will never understand each other..I am here for greater knowledge and understanding..Question. Do you believe in something much greater than you? If not we are wasting our time. But if you do WHAT.

You're right about the circular, and why do you argue in such a circular fashion? Do you think it's really possible for you to defend your position without the use of circular logic? If not, then maybe it's time for you to reconsider your beliefs.

Christianity is still relatively new to human civilization (as it's been referred to in post-agricultural societies), and its 2000-year span occupies only the tiniest fraction of the 3.5 billion year Tree of Life span. That's a conceptual tree for evaluating facts, not religious woo. Oh, I forgot you're not really "religious" because you don't express it through the ritualism of "those people", you're style is to pack your head with so much nonsense that you cannot even see straight - sorry to break it to you, but that's religion too.

Yes, I do believe in something much greater than me. See my avatar, for one. Also, many people on this earth and in my life are far greater and capable than I am. Certainly the Tree of Life is, and the physical forces of the universe which, over 13.8 billion years, gave rise to us. But nothing that cannot be explained in a fashion that can be not only proven, but corroborated, not only  in the same language, but in multiple languages, and more importantly across any cultural barriers. The answers aren't perfect, but they are evaluated on their merits, not on the claim of authority. Your claims will always be unfalsifiable, depending on the claim of authority because they are without any merit that can be evaluated unless it's "proven" by more unfalsifiable claims and appeals to authority down throughout history.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 09:47:14 PM
Believing in GOD is spiritual to me and with that comes wisdom.

Just what is it that you consider "spiritual"? Are you aware that there are no possible experiences, no thoughts, no emotions, no motivations, no pangs of conscience, no passions, no talents, and no sense of anything that a person can possibly have which are likely owing to anything other than biochemistry and physics? When that's gone, there's supposed to be a "spirit", but what does the spirit really do anyway? The word  "mind" became popularized as a means of discussing biology while evading the ire of wary church leaders who feared scientific inquiry of the "soul" or "spirit" would usurp their authority, therefore they are all synonymous.

Believing in God (do you really think your all-caps impresses?) makes you wise, does it? Spending hours each week reading the same old book, sitting with the same old crowd, hearing the same old voices in your ear, and tuning out the ideas from everyone else without even evaluating them with an open mind, dismissing them without further thought with the assurance of authorities which owe their claims to other authorities with no hard merit. It keeps the same old ideas alive for thousands of years, and that really means something because other ideas haven't been maintained for so long! Too bad you couldn't do such a good job at preserving the ideas of the flat earth, geocentrism, spontaneous generation, the benefits of bloodletting, divine right of kings, slavery, human sacrifice (which your bible is full of btw), the stoning of adulterers, and witchcraft as the cause of disease. How very wise you surely are!

Some old wisdom is good because it has been tested by time. You would say that your biblical wisdom and the ideas which you encrust your head with are also time-tested, but the difference is that you never, ever test them - you enshrine them in faith! Wisdom is improved only through such testing which your ideas lack, and this is why only a relative few ideas are considered good for thousands of years.

Please come back again, but try to do better than feeble attempts at turning my critic of your arguments back on me. I'm sure you can do better than that!

Funny..How easy is it for you dismiss what you don't understand. Don't you think it's odd that you say you have read the entire bible and it seems like your proud of it but yet you still do not understand one word... My friend the bible was meant for Believers only to understand truly.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 11:08:21 PM
Funny..How easy is it for you dismiss what you don't understand. Don't you think it's odd that you say you have read the entire bible and it seems like your proud of it but yet you still do not understand one word... My friend the bible was meant for Believers only to understand truly.

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Oh, I get it - you have to believe it first, before you've even read it? How very interesting your faith is indeed! Can't imagine why so many young people, being the smartest generation ever born on this earth would be leaving ideas such as that behind them.

Yes, That is the only way. How simple is that right. Confess all of your sins before Jesus Christ and ask that He come into your life. I look at it this way, if all of the work I have put into this life still doesn't fulfill me what harm can it do to ask God to help me....But remember this is for those of us that need help from someone greater than ourselves unless we think too highly of ourselves.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 11:36:59 PM
Yes, That is the only way. How simple is that right. Confess all of your sins before Jesus Christ and ask that He come into your life. I look at it this way, if all of the work I have put into this life still doesn't fulfill me what harm can it do to ask God to help me....But remember this is for those of us that need help from someone greater than ourselves unless we think too highly of ourselves.

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You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.
You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.
You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.

Ok, I've made up my mind - unbelievable as it is, I've made up my mind and decided that I'm gonna believe! I just need to talk to Jesus, who will convince me that it's true so that I can really be a believer, ok.

Hello, Jesus, I want you to come into my life because I really want to believe in you, but for every good reason I just can't right now...

Why doesn't he pick up the line for that?

I have to be a believer first, and nobody seems to be reading my email at Jesus's address - I guess they don't want to help you with your training for the job vacancies they need to fill. Therefore, I guess the only way for me to get in is pretend I believe it all, so that I can be made to believe it for real later. It's called lying, but there isn't a commandment against that, so I guess it's ok.

I believe in you, Jesus!
I believe in you, Jesus!
I believe in you, Jesus!

Now, please take control of my life - that's my whole life, my whole mind too, including that part which old poets called the heart, plus my soul and my spirit as well (just in case there's a difference between those two, which were slyly replaced by the word "mind" by early biologists who didn't want to offend their theocratic rulers)! Take my wallet too. Make me a believer, and make me your personal slave, so that at least I won't burn over Satan's barbeque pit for all eternity (which they say is for a very, very long time although they can't really quantify it in any precise terms). I know I deserve to be tortured in the most barbaric manner imaginable because I committed the sin of being born (born in sin, so guilty am I, maybe I jacked off some while still in the womb), but I trust you to forgive me.

I believe.
I believe!
I BELIEVE!!!

Oh, fuck it - Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, BEETLEJUICE!!!

See, I did give it a try (again), but alas, no magic and no miracle! You can go on telling yourself you believe when you really know better, but if you really deserve to experience one more good day on this one and only world where life like ours is known, much less paradise in some better place, then you should be making like me and demanding better ideas than that. No god would have given you that awesome, capable lump of pudding between your ears so that you could waste it on the nonsense you spout here!

Quote from: Blackleaf on November 10, 2015, 09:48:37 AM
Based on what I've read in the Protestant New Testament, if you claim to be a Christian, but you don't feed the hungry, aid the widows, or visit those in prison, and just live a self-centered life, you'll go to Hell just like any nonbeliever. Basically, God does not give free tickets to Heaven to whoever joins his son's fan club; you have to prove your faith by being the most decent human being possible.

This depends on which Christian sect you belong to.  In some sects, believing in Jesus is all you need, and that particular notion seems to be strongest among Protestants.  In other sects, you must supplement that belief with good works.

QuoteIf you look at religion strictly by what it teaches, almost all of them advocate peace and charity.

They also teach bigotry and violence. Some of the most vile and reprehensible hate speech I've heard recently is from Christian and Muslim leaders, and if hate speech were outlawed, they would demand an exemption because it would violate their religious freedoms.
 

Yeah, Xtain peace and charity is only for the other Xtains who agree with those who can give it, or to the meek and trodden down (those who are only in a position to stroke their frail egos). Otherwise they add their own, and deepest dimensions to brutish tribalism.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PMThe real proof that GOD lives is not in any secular minds or educational facilities, the proof is in the man that walks and lives his life with the mind set of Pleasing GOD not man.

(http://www.stargate-project.de/stargate/images/lexikon/P/prior_1.jpg)

"Pity not the blind man, for he is hindered not by the visions of this world, but rather pity yourselves, for he will see the light before you do."

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 07:41:38 PM
To all, Religious people are the ones to blame for everything wrong today. Now Religion is the only way to find GOD but more importantly a Relationship with Him is what changes ones mind..

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A relationship beyond your own ego, is what changes people.  This is called growing up.  Babies are egomaniacs.  Of course a relationship with a personal god can do this ... provided your god has gotten past the baby Jesus stage ;-)

Quote from: Hydra009 on November 12, 2015, 12:57:08 PM
(http://www.stargate-project.de/stargate/images/lexikon/P/prior_1.jpg)

I loved this series.  What a wonderful commentary on religion, especially Christianity.  The first couple of years are not that strong, and then the episodes just keep getting stronger and more thoughtful right up until the last season.  One of my favorites is when SG1 zaps one of the Ori Priors with the frequency machine that takes away his powers, and then they start baiting him.  He responds by babbling some nonsense from the Book of Origin, so they point out his fallacious reasoning, and he babbles more scripture, which they debunk, so he keeps responding with religious gibberish, almost as if he's oblivious to reason, or better yet, like he can't even understand that he is being shown what a fool he is.  It was just like some of the fundies that show up around here.  And all the gibberish sounded like it came straight out of the Bible.  It was like the writers were committed to exposing the folly of all religion.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on November 12, 2015, 12:29:04 AM
You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.
You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.
You have to believe first what the bible says before you ever see what the bible says.

Ok, I've made up my mind - unbelievable as it is, I've made up my mind and decided that I'm gonna believe! I just need to talk to Jesus, who will convince me that it's true so that I can really be a believer, ok.

Hello, Jesus, I want you to come into my life because I really want to believe in you, but for every good reason I just can't right now...

Why doesn't he pick up the line for that?

I have to be a believer first, and nobody seems to be reading my email at Jesus's address - I guess they don't want to help you with your training for the job vacancies they need to fill. Therefore, I guess the only way for me to get in is pretend I believe it all, so that I can be made to believe it for real later. It's called lying, but there isn't a commandment against that, so I guess it's ok.

I believe in you, Jesus!
I believe in you, Jesus!
I believe in you, Jesus!

Now, please take control of my life - that's my whole life, my whole mind too, including that part which old poets called the heart, plus my soul and my spirit as well (just in case there's a difference between those two, which were slyly replaced by the word "mind" by early biologists who didn't want to offend their theocratic rulers)! Take my wallet too. Make me a believer, and make me your personal slave, so that at least I won't burn over Satan's barbeque pit for all eternity (which they say is for a very, very long time although they can't really quantify it in any precise terms). I know I deserve to be tortured in the most barbaric manner imaginable because I committed the sin of being born (born in sin, so guilty am I, maybe I jacked off some while still in the womb), but I trust you to forgive me.

I believe.
I believe!
I BELIEVE!!!

Oh, fuck it - Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, BEETLEJUICE!!!

See, I did give it a try (again), but alas, no magic and no miracle! You can go on telling yourself you believe when you really know better, but if you really deserve to experience one more good day on this one and only world where life like ours is known, much less paradise in some better place, then you should be making like me and demanding better ideas than that. No god would have given you that awesome, capable lump of pudding between your ears so that you could waste it on the nonsense you spout here!

Maybe if you really knew what the word believe means things would work out for you..

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Quote from: Baruch on November 12, 2015, 07:27:55 PM
A relationship beyond your own ego, is what changes people.  This is called growing up.  Babies are egomaniacs.  Of course a relationship with a personal god can do this ... provided your god has gotten past the baby Jesus stage ;-)

I thought that is what I said. A real relationship changes people. Where does ego come into play.

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Quote from: SGOS on November 12, 2015, 08:19:14 PM
I loved this series.  What a wonderful commentary on religion, especially Christianity.  The first couple of years are not that strong, and then the episodes just keep getting stronger and more thoughtful right up until the last season.  One of my favorites is when SG1 zaps one of the Ori Priors with the frequency machine that takes away his powers, and then they start baiting him.  He responds by babbling some nonsense from the Book of Origin, so they point out his fallacious reasoning, and he babbles more scripture, which they debunk, so he keeps responding with religious gibberish, almost as if he's oblivious to reason, or better yet, like he can't even understand that he is being shown what a fool he is.  It was just like some of the fundies that show up around here.  And all the gibberish sounded like it came straight out of the Bible.  It was like the writers were committed to exposing the folly of all religion.

How can anyone like you expose the folly of believing in GOD or the bible....Please Please explain that to me. All you can do is disagree

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Quote from: Hydra009 on November 12, 2015, 12:57:08 PM
(http://www.stargate-project.de/stargate/images/lexikon/P/prior_1.jpg)

"Pity not the blind man, for he is hindered not by the visions of this world, but rather pity yourselves, for he will see the light before you do."

Good then maybe he can explain it to you..

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A similar show but more dark ....
Earth Final Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7yJrmPXxY

Quote from: g2perk on November 12, 2015, 09:03:07 PM
Maybe if you really knew what the word believe means things would work out for you..

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What does it mean, oh Enlightened One? How do you serve that belief in your word salad?

HINT: Belief isn't something you do, and it isn't synonymous with blind faith! It also doesn't mean humbly switching off your bullshit radar and blindly accepting your nonsense so that you will stop being such a PIA. I know people like you - I was raised among you, and I know how you have that switchbox running in your head which is constantly changing tracks whenever pressed on faith, belief, and repentance, as if they were all the same, which they are certainly not. If I had the sort of wrongs which you call "sin" which I needed to be forgiven of, I could only add to my list by wasting another minute of my life in the company of your idiot groups. Another favorite tactic by which you distract your target from the smell of your bullshit is by putting the onus on the same, with the ridiculous argument that belief is a "choice" which he must make - much like it's a choice for me to believe that red is blue. You'll have to do better than any of this shit with me, or stop wasting my time!

Okay Your ready...It means to lead or to follow. Believers are known followers in that which he chooses and Believing leads you to that place of joy.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 12, 2015, 09:06:48 PM
I thought that is what I said. A real relationship changes people. Where does ego come into play.

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Where does ego come into play?  It is what gets in the way.

Quote from: Baruch on November 12, 2015, 10:21:17 PM
A similar show but more dark ....
Earth Final Conflict

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7yJrmPXxY

I missed this show back in the 90s for some reason.  It's not unusual that I miss a series, but then discover it and become a fan after the series is over.  That's what happened with Stargate SG1 and Atlantis.   I just spent 15 minutes reading a few reviews from viewers, which left me undecided.  A general consensus of viewers seems to coalesce around the notion that it was a great first season that ended up drifting about aimlessly for the next 4 years.  What did you think of the series?

Quote from: g2perk on November 12, 2015, 11:46:07 PM
Okay Your ready...It means to lead or to follow.

LOFL!

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/29084454.jpg)


Show me a thesaurus entry which contains "lead", "follow", and "believe"!

Quote from: g2perk on November 12, 2015, 11:46:07 PM

Believers are known followers in that which he chooses and Believing leads you to that place of joy.

You cannot simply choose an idea, say you believe it, and by that believe it in reality - something has to happen in your head that makes it sensible to you. It's a process of reasoning, which can be driven by either you, as it should be, or by somebody else. I'd say the latter is what all of you foul fuckers do to babies, but they have no reasoning capacity, so you can just squat over their little heads and dump your shit directly in, no processing necessary! All babies are born atheist, not only because they are unable to process ideas, they are incapable of rationalizing them out. As soon as they are able to understand language, you fill their heads with your garbage before they can develop the ability to evaluate it for themselves and decide on their own whether it makes any good sense, knowing that once it's there it will be very hard for them to cull out later. You teach parents to do this to their children from the pulpit, believing that it's a wise strategy as is inoculation from pathogens (or maybe you're one of those stupid anti-vaxxers), but you never consider whether it's right to take away the ability of children to decide for themselves. This child indoctrination protects only you, who are afraid of seeing your ideas rejected by future generations for what they are, and the loss of your socio-political power through your religious organizations. What you do to a child's mind by telling them anything but truth before they reach the age of 6 is child abuse, and every such case of that should be prosecuted in a criminal court!

Whether or not your belief leads you to joy is completely irrelevant regarding the definition of belief. But with you it isn't a belief at all - it's a program! The only difference between your religion and the cults which sway teenagers is that the programming is done at an earlier age, thereby making the indoctrination camps unnecessary.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Nice wording...Okay for one you trying to disprove GOD tells me you know something about GOD.

Bullshit. If you make an assertion about God, someone will refute it. It doesn't follow that they have any affirmative knowledge of God.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
The real proof that GOD lives is not in any secular minds or educational facilities, the proof is in the man that walks and lives his life with the mind set of Pleasing GOD not man. The fruit of the tree should tell you what kind of tree your dealing with.

You don't see how dangerous that kind of thinking is, do you? God does not speak for himself. So what you have is the words of men to go by, when determining his will. No one can speak for God. Not now, not 2000 years ago.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Open your mind.

You too.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Now as for as my group as you say, we are people that don't need tax payers money For a meeting place because A REAL GOD meets his people any where.

I used to believe that.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
And GOD DOES not need to protest to get people to believe , people that believe protest.

What if I protest about people who believe? :confused:

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Funny..How easy is it for you dismiss what you don't understand. Don't you think it's odd that you say you have read the entire bible and it seems like your proud of it but yet you still do not understand one word... My friend the bible was meant for Believers only to understand truly.

I used to believe that too - back in Bible College, when I was studying to become a Christian minister. It's true that those who have never believed in the Bible, and taken it to heart by faith and obedience, don't understand "first hand" the delusion of it. But I can assure you, that some of us know exactly where you're coming from, and look back on you with pity.

Quote from: g2perk on November 11, 2015, 08:21:27 PMYes, That is the only way. How simple is that right. Confess all of your sins before Jesus Christ and ask that He come into your life. I look at it this way, if all of the work I have put into this life still doesn't fulfill me what harm can it do to ask God to help me....But remember this is for those of us that need help from someone greater than ourselves unless we think too highly of ourselves.

How highly you think of yourself: that God has graced you with divine knowledge, but not the rest of us poor misguided atheists.

Alright I see your only good at combating other people's thoughts and lively hood but you can not state why your way is better than mine. You can not prove that their is a God and cannot prove that their isn't a God. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere and at like you know it all...Come on man please.

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Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
Bullshit. If you make an assertion about God, someone will refute it. It doesn't follow that they have any affirmative knowledge of God.
You don't see how dangerous that kind of thinking is, do you? God does not speak for himself. So what you have is the words of men to go by, when determining his will. No one can speak for God. Not now, not 2000 years ago.
You too.
I used to believe that.
What if I protest about people who believe? :confused:
I used to believe that too - back in Bible College, when I was studying to become a Christian minister. It's true that those who have never believed in the Bible, and taken it to heart by faith and obedience, don't understand "first hand" the delusion of it. But I can assure you, that some of us know exactly where you're coming from, and look back on you with pity.
How highly you think of yourself: that God has graced you with divine knowledge, but not the rest of us poor misguided atheists.

What made you not Believe anymore. I say anymore because you stated you went to bible school. You don't have to answer I am just curious. I promise you have never met a man of God like me before. My perspective on the bible is completely different than you can imagine.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:04:07 AM
Alright I see your only good at combating other people's thoughts and lively hood but you can not state why your way is better than mine. You can not prove that their is a God and cannot prove that their isn't a God. You are stuck in the middle of nowhere and at like you know it all

No, of course there's nothing better with teaching children to think for themselves, nor with resting much easier at night knowing that there are no demonic bogeymen stalking my "soul" and threatening my fantasized eternal existence, an idea which is far more burdensome to carry than hopeful. I'm in no hurry to die, being that this is likely the only life that I will ever get to experience, but I don't lose sleep over it anymore because I see clearly how unlikely that any suffering or regrets will be possible once it's over.

No, there's nothing better about teaching children to evaluate what they choose to believe regarding other people and what they do, to consider what they are told of them through the undistorted lens of rational inquiry. Ask all the people who you have made so fucking miserable for so many years with your cruel bullshit if their lives arn't better now that most people understand they don't harm others through what makes them different, that they physically need to be what they are without being persecuted for it, and how much do they really feel the weight of their "sin"!

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:04:07 AM
...Come on man please.

(http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/9/5/6/3/1/8/CRYBABY-20639986961.jpeg)

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
Bullshit. If you make an assertion about God, someone will refute it. It doesn't follow that they have any affirmative knowledge of God.
You don't see how dangerous that kind of thinking is, do you? God does not speak for himself. So what you have is the words of men to go by, when determining his will. No one can speak for God. Not now, not 2000 years ago.
You too.
I used to believe that.
What if I protest about people who believe? :confused:
I used to believe that too - back in Bible College, when I was studying to become a Christian minister. It's true that those who have never believed in the Bible, and taken it to heart by faith and obedience, don't understand "first hand" the delusion of it. But I can assure you, that some of us know exactly where you're coming from, and look back on you with pity.
How highly you think of yourself: that God has graced you with divine knowledge, but not the rest of us poor misguided atheists.

Okay I am highly blessed to be able to understand Gods words. Do you understand His words if not you can but you have to believe. That simple my friend.

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Quote from: peacewithoutgod on November 13, 2015, 09:26:14 AM
LOFL!

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/29084454.jpg)


Show me a thesaurus entry which contains "lead", "follow", and "believe"!


You cannot simply choose an idea, say you believe it, and by that believe it in reality - something has to happen in your head that makes it sensible to you. It's a process of reasoning, which can be driven by either you, as it should be, or by somebody else. I'd say the latter is what all of you foul fuckers do to babies, but they have no reasoning capacity, so you can just squat over their little heads and dump your shit directly in, no processing necessary! All babies are born atheist, not only because they are unable to process ideas, they are incapable of rationalizing them out. As soon as they are able to understand language, you fill their heads with your garbage before they can develop the ability to evaluate it for themselves and decide on their own whether it makes any good sense, knowing that once it's there it will be very hard for them to cull out later. You teach parents to do this to their children from the pulpit, believing that it's a wise strategy as is inoculation from pathogens (or maybe you're one of those stupid anti-vaxxers), but you never consider whether it's right to take away the ability of children to decide for themselves. This child indoctrination protects only you, who are afraid of seeing your ideas rejected by future generations for what they are, and the loss of your socio-political power through your religious organizations. What you do to a child's mind by telling them anything but truth before they reach the age of 6 is child abuse, and every such case of that should be prosecuted in a criminal court!

Whether or not your belief leads you to joy is completely irrelevant regarding the definition of belief. But with you it isn't a belief at all - it's a program! The only difference between your religion and the cults which sway teenagers is that the programming is done at an earlier age, thereby making the indoctrination camps unnecessary.

So let me get this straight..Criminal court should be involved in teaching a child to respect others, love people, help the poor, feed the hungry, and so on and so on...Come on man please...again stop listening to your fellow atheist. The bible teaches us to love people. You see it's people like you who try and interpret the bible with absolutely no understanding of it...

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:22:41 AM
So let me get this straight..Criminal court should be involved in teaching a child to respect others, love people, help the poor, feed the hungry, and so on and so on...Come on man please...again stop listening to your fellow atheist. The bible teaches us to love people. You see it's people like you who try and interpret the bible with absolutely no understanding of it...

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...Come on man please...

(http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/9/5/6/3/1/8/CRYBABY-20639986961.jpeg)

I do want to thank you for the conversation though. I find it refreshing to get new insights on how others view our messed up world.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
What made you not Believe anymore. I say anymore because you stated you went to bible school. You don't have to answer I am just curious.

It was a long process. There was no single moment.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
I promise you have never met a man of God like me before. My perspective on the bible is completely different than you can imagine.

I highly doubt it.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
Okay I am highly blessed to be able to understand Gods words. Do you understand His words if not you can but you have to believe. That simple my friend.

I understand the scripture so much more clearly now that I don't have my GodGoggles on anymore. It's an attempt to control other people through a promise of reward-and-punishment in this life (Old Testament) or the next life (New Testament).

Most of it is mythology, that anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated from their youth, will find impossible to swallow. Like the creation story. Or the 29,040 feet of water that flooded the earth. Or the tower of Babel. Or Samson. Or parting the Red Sea. Or Jonah. Or the sun moving backwards. Or any of the pathetic "miracles" of Jesus.

That's all used to instill a fear of God as a preparation for indoctrination into the moral code, which is carefully crafted to control believers' behavior. Some of it is well-intended. But a lie is a lie, after all.

If you understood What the bible says then you would know some of those are parables. The intent of the bible is not instill fear but to give a foundation of how to live in this crazy world. As for as the reward goes that is only for us that believe in the one which will give the reward. The punishment is just that you reap what you sow. I

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NONE of the examples I gave are PARABLES!

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
I do want to thank you for the conversation though. I find it refreshing to get new insights on how others view our messed up world.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

It isn't messed up, it's just what it is. Oh, we could have been colonizing distant solar systems by now if the positive learning trend set in motion in the Library of Alexandria hadn't been destroyed by maurading Xtian and later Muslim priests, but living in the past is pointless. What matters is where we go now, whether we choose to do what we can to sustain a habitable environment for future generations, or to continue exploiting and destroying it while millions die in continuous worldwide warfare over non-renewable resources which destroy our atmosphere, as the warring groups beat the drums of their gods and our children choke to death. Will yours remember you as a wise teacher? Oh, you think there's a god who's taking control of all of that, who may not want to keep another generation on this planet, who will save everybody who follows him and make them so happy they'll never miss the only home they ever knew - but what if that's all just empty words - how can you be sure? Just how strong is the evidence which you rely on to support your belief in such an idea?

Read the works of Xtian apologists, and they are all the same, relying on anecdote, ad homina, red herring fallacies, buttloads of circular reasoning, and most of all appeals to authorities which don't stand well outside of the circle jerk which is Xtian apologetics. There are much better sources for wisdom in this world than your bible which a healthy society can be founded on, and you need to open your sleeping, dreaming eyes and go take a look at them. I won't tell you what they are, you'll need to decide that for yourself, but I can guarantee you will find better ways to live by than your ideas of divine revelation if you search for them.

Seek and ye shall find...it can reinforce your pre-conceived notions, or it can be a way to actual new learning.

Thank you but I would rather die before listening to any man on this earth before learning from the bible. Man can only give you what he has learned from the mistakes he has made. Then what. What about all the things that he doesn't know. My friend you are lost and looking for answers from people on this earth in which they can not satisfy your longing. The difference between you and I is huge. I have found my answer to life and am now trying to apply them. You are still looking for truth. Good luck with that.

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You are as dense a moron as I have ever encountered. The Bible was written by men, and then compiled by other men. It's not even very well written, being full of errors and self-contradictions. Are you so completely Christarded that you think it was just plopped onto mankind by some divine magic?

But this preaching is getting on my nerves. How have you escaped the Ban-Hammer for so long, when you don't even make any attempt to actually respond to the points raised against you?

I really see that you don't understand the bible. By the way it's written by men but inspire by God which no other book on this earth can say. And please give me just one error the BIBLE has that YOU found and I'll be more that happy to explain it to... Now don't cheat and Google anything. I want to test your knowledge of you have any. And by the way Because I see how illiterate you are when it comes to scripture. A parable is a earthly experience with a spiritual meaning...I sorry maybe that's too deep. Lol.

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Quote from: SGOS on November 13, 2015, 07:42:12 AM
I missed this show back in the 90s for some reason.  It's not unusual that I miss a series, but then discover it and become a fan after the series is over.  That's what happened with Stargate SG1 and Atlantis.   I just spent 15 minutes reading a few reviews from viewers, which left me undecided.  A general consensus of viewers seems to coalesce around the notion that it was a great first season that ended up drifting about aimlessly for the next 4 years.  What did you think of the series?

Well the criticisms of the version currently on Youtube is valid ... they did change the vocals too much in editing, and the viewing rectangle is too small.  As far as the series goes, if you like Scifi ... the story is good for the first season ... after that they did have to troll for writers ... there are individual episodes what are quite good in the later years, you would have to pick and choose.  So it would be worth it if you already had a streaming service paid for.  I really liked some of the technical aspects ... the head up display/control in the fly-about is neat.  And the overall storyline is a mystery ... so don't troll ahead too much ;-)  If you really like the first season, and can overlook discontinuities in the later seasons ... then give that a try.

Solomon are you mad at my God because he disappointed are what. I don't know if you realize but the bible is meant for individual growth first. The trials that corrupt our thinking are only there to see if we truly believe that's all. Everybody goes through them even Christ followers.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
I really see that you don't understand the bible.

I really see that you don't understand rational discourse.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
By the way it's written by men but inspire by God which no other book on this earth can say.

The Bible can't say it either.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
And please give me just one error the BIBLE has that YOU found and I'll be more that happy to explain it to... Now don't cheat and Google anything. I want to test your knowledge of you have any.

Oh, for Christ's sake! I noticed the two different genealogies of Joseph early in my reading: I do not accept the explanation that one of the two is Mary's, when in fact they both clearly claim to be Joseph's. I know all the apologetics for it, so don't bore me, please.

Then I noticed the two different deaths of Judas. Also, what did he do with the 50 shekels of silver?

But the most important one I noticed is probably the most important one: the three (or is it four?) different accounts of Jesus' last words, before he died.

I noticed the discrepancies in the creation myth, on my own, as well.

I've learned of many more, from studies in bible college, and the various apologetics for them (all of which I've forgotten now, as that was 30 years ago).

I'd wager you weren't even aware of them.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
And by the way Because I see how illiterate you are when it comes to scripture. A parable is a earthly experience with a spiritual meaning...I sorry maybe that's too deep. Lol.

No, it is not, Moron. A parable is a fictional story, with a symbolic meaning, that teaches a lesson. An allegory. It is not "an earthly experience."

Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Well the criticisms of the version currently on Youtube is valid ... they did change the vocals too much in editing, and the viewing rectangle is too small.  As far as the series goes, if you like Scifi ... the story is good for the first season ... after that they did have to troll for writers ... there are individual episodes what are quite good in the later years, you would have to pick and choose.  So it would be worth it if you already had a streaming service paid for.  I really liked some of the technical aspects ... the head up display/control in the fly-about is neat.  And the overall storyline is a mystery ... so don't troll ahead too much ;-)  If you really like the first season, and can overlook discontinuities in the later seasons ... then give that a try.

The reason I asked is because I don't utilize streaming, partly out of a sort of stubbornness on my part, but also because of quality.  I have a 12 foot wide viewing screen and a kick ass sound system, and I don't want to compromise on resolution or sound quality.  I also only have access to DSL, which isn't as good as some of the other delivery systems, so it means I'd have to sign up again for Netflix DVD rental by mail again, but when their mail service went to Hell, I dropped them.  So for that many disks (120 episodes), it would take a couple of months of waiting around for the DVDs to dribble in.  That's assuming they are even available at Netflix.  But the EFC teaser looked interesting.

I had Netflix streaming when it first came out, but I wasn't impressed with the selection or the quality.  Then I tried Amazon, which was even worse.  I could buy the series for something like $80, but the reviews I read red flagged my brain.  Sci-Fi is my favorite genre, but there's enough TV Sci-Fi that I'm not interested in, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 01:21:04 PM
... I don't know if you realize but the bible is meant for individual growth first. The trials that corrupt our thinking are only there to see if we truly believe that's all. Everybody goes through them even Christ followers.

So when a child dies a slow death from cancer, is that to see if the child truly believes, or the parent?

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 01:59:54 PM
So when a child dies a slow death from cancer, is that to see if the child truly believes, or the parent?

LOL  Don't bait him.  You'll only encourage him.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 01:59:54 PM
So when a child dies a slow death from cancer, is that to see if the child truly believes, or the parent?

Can a dead child believe...ok. Now if the parent of the dead child goes through the grieving process and comes through and now is able to help another that goes through the same experience is that a positive impact or negative.


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So much waste over a fictional character. Get a fucking life, moron.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 02:12:04 PM
Can a dead child believe...ok. Now if the parent of the dead child goes through the grieving process and comes through and now is able to help another that goes through the same experience is that a positive impact or negative.

I can't believe you are actually postulating that a child's death can ever be a positive impact, just because it gives the grieving parent sympathy for another grieving parent!!! Are you that desperate for justification?

Ask yourself this, Perky: did you really come here to save me from a life without Jesus, or to have me save you from a life with him?

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 01:38:51 PM
I really see that you don't understand rational discourse.
The Bible can't say it either.
Oh, for Christ's sake! I noticed the two different genealogies of Joseph early in my reading: I do not accept the explanation that one of the two is Mary's, when in fact they both clearly claim to be Joseph's. I know all the apologetics for it, so don't bore me, please.

Then I noticed the two different deaths of Judas. Also, what did he do with the 50 shekels of silver?

But the most important one I noticed is probably the most important one: the three (or is it four?) different accounts of Jesus' last words, before he died.

I noticed the discrepancies in the creation myth, on my own, as well.

I've learned of many more, from studies in bible college, and the various apologetics for them (all of which I've forgotten now, as that was 30 years ago).

I'd wager you weren't even aware of them.
No, it is not, Moron. A parable is a fictional story, with a symbolic meaning, that teaches a lesson. An allegory. It is not "an earthly experience."

Ok. As for as Judas it was 30 not 50. The two deaths are the same just told by two different authors. Just like all of the gospels they all talk about the life of Jesus in a different manor some having more details than the other. Did you get that he died in both accounts.. Good then the point was made. The money was used to buy the land in which he killed himself called now the field of blood.

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Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 01:38:51 PM
I really see that you don't understand rational discourse.
The Bible can't say it either.
Oh, for Christ's sake! I noticed the two different genealogies of Joseph early in my reading: I do not accept the explanation that one of the two is Mary's, when in fact they both clearly claim to be Joseph's. I know all the apologetics for it, so don't bore me, please.

Then I noticed the two different deaths of Judas. Also, what did he do with the 50 shekels of silver?

But the most important one I noticed is probably the most important one: the three (or is it four?) different accounts of Jesus' last words, before he died.

I noticed the discrepancies in the creation myth, on my own, as well.

I've learned of many more, from studies in bible college, and the various apologetics for them (all of which I've forgotten now, as that was 30 years ago).

I'd wager you weren't even aware of them.
No, it is not, Moron. A parable is a fictional story, with a symbolic meaning, that teaches a lesson. An allegory. It is not "an earthly experience."

Now for the most important one. Remember John was the one that was the closest to Jesus on the cross and the others were a little further back. So again the different gospels are what each disciple recounted. I would go with what John said because he was the only one that heard it from the mouth of Jesus.


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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 11:49:18 AM
Thank you but I would rather die before listening to any man on this earth before learning from the bible. Man can only give you what he has learned from the mistakes he has made. Then what. What about all the things that he doesn't know. My friend you are lost and looking for answers from people on this earth in which they can not satisfy your longing. The difference between you and I is huge. I have found my answer to life and am now trying to apply them. You are still looking for truth. Good luck with that.

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I simply cannot imagine a more stupid statement than that!

What you fail to understand is the fact that "listen to any man" is exactly what you do  men when you "listen" to your bible! Every single word in it was written by another mortal, and they really weren't worth much of anyone's attention (even in their own day), with their ideas on incest, rape, genocide, filicide, weird and gory sacrifice, child sacrifice, child abuse, brutal, unnecessary and unhealthy treatment of infant boys, slavery, insensible, cruel and brutal homophobia, shameful misogyny, and disgusting treatment (including gory capital punishment) of women just for being women. How can you really be so shallow-minded to think it's even possible that these so-called "inspired" men were inspired by anybody better than themselves when they wrote that shit! They were just men like you and I, who happened to be too ambitious or too desperate to allow honest ethics to get in their way of finding a place for themselves in their world. That's really all there was to it other than the common theme of them being Jews, proto-Jewish Hebrews, or Jesus people, all appealing more or less to the same god, just as all the works which Zoroastrians were inspired to write were about Zoroaster and the culture which follows him, and the Buddhist writings are of Buddha and his culture. Thereby you get a big collection of books all writing of the same deity because it was a popular one with millions of people for thousands of years, d'UHHHHH!!! You have no idea just how many other books were written because they weren't selected for the compilation, nor how much culling and editing had to be done to make the relative few which they eventually settled with appear as consistent as they are. Any fourth grade student who isn't afraid to look hard at it would notice these inconsistencies, they being on factive data and moral code.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 02:19:36 PM
I can't believe you are actually postulating that a child's death can ever be a positive impact, just because it gives the grieving parent sympathy for another grieving parent!!! Are you that desperate for justification?

Ask yourself this, Perky: did you really come here to save me from a life without Jesus, or to have me save you from a life with him?

I love this....don't change my words you know exactly what I meant. No death is positive. Now if you can save me please by all means do. Tell me something beneficial about your self that I can emulate.

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Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 13, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
So much waste over a fictional character. Get a fucking life, moron.

Josh....in Proverbs 14:15 it says the simple believes everything but the prudent gives thought to all his steps.

Which one are you?

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
I really see that you don't understand the bible. By the way it's written by men but inspire by God which no other book on this earth can say. And please give me just one error the BIBLE has that YOU found and I'll be more that happy to explain it to... Now don't cheat and Google anything. I want to test your knowledge of you have any. And by the way Because I see how illiterate you are when it comes to scripture. A parable is a earthly experience with a spiritual meaning...I sorry maybe that's too deep. Lol.

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:sign0024:


Now you're getting much too cocky, Youngster. I happen to know that of you by the way you misarticulate yourself, your intellectual simplicity, and the fact that you are arrogant enough to think you can win here when older evangelists would tell you to avoid us (not to generalize on the younger generation, whose brilliant presence I recognize here). You have no way to prove what you claim, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it. You have nothing to contribute here, you've been called out on that fact, and now it's time for you to quit digging.

You cannot write off the atrocities committed in cultures of the past as "parables". While the vast majority of the events in the bible didn't happen at all, its stories reflected real cultures (they were written by real people), therefore the violent warts on them were very real too - true or not, the stories reflected the values (and lack of them) which its people  held. What does that mean? What else other than the fact that their ideas were no less contemporary than ours, and certainly no better, including what they had to say on society and any deities. They never talked to your god, and he never talked to them, but that fact didn't stop them from using the idea that this happened for their own empowerment with their people.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 02:28:25 PM
Ok. As for as Judas it was 30 not 50. The two deaths are the same just told by two different authors. Just like all of the gospels they all talk about the life of Jesus in a different manor some having more details than the other. Did you get that he died in both accounts.. Good then the point was made. The money was used to buy the land in which he killed himself called now the field of blood.

Horseshit, and you know it. One account says he threw the money into the temple and went and hanged himself, the other account says he bought a field with the money, and fell in it, and burst open. They are irreconcilable. Are you being dishonest, or are you now contending that the Bible is not infallible?

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 02:43:48 PM
Now for the most important one. Remember John was the one that was the closest to Jesus on the cross and the others were a little further back. So again the different gospels are what each disciple recounted. I would go with what John said because he was the only one that heard it from the mouth of Jesus.

At least you admit that their accounts are fallible then. And so which other parts are incorrect as well?

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on November 13, 2015, 02:56:29 PM
:sign0024:


Now you're getting much too cocky, Youngster. I happen to know that of you by the way you misarticulate yourself, your intellectual simplicity, and the fact that you are arrogant enough to think you can win here when older evangelists would tell you to avoid us (not to generalize on the younger generation, whose brilliant presence I recognize here). You have no way to prove what you claim, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without it. You have nothing to contribute here, you've been called out on that fact, and now it's time for you to quit digging.

You cannot write off the atrocities committed in cultures of the past as "parables". While the vast majority of the events in the bible didn't happen at all, its stories reflected real cultures (they were written by real people), therefore the violent warts on them were very real too - true or not, the stories reflected the values (and lack of them) which its people  held. What does that mean? What else other than the fact that their ideas were no less contemporary than ours, and certainly no better, including what they had to say on society and any deities. They never talked to your god, and he never talked to them, but that fact didn't stop them from using the idea that this happened for their own empowerment with their people.

I in the right place and simple is the only way to be. I don't have impress you with words just put them in your ear. If you are an older person and think you are more knowledgeable because of it then your sadly mistaken. I don't have to address all of life's atrocities to understand the bible. It has stories in it to show people like you that no one is perfect and anyone can change for the better. You look at the bible with your piercing eye just as the Jews Jesus. Always looking to discredit what you can make out. That's what cowards do. Forget the people in the bible and there names what does the story tell you about evil people and there wicked hearts. The real story is about one man standing up to an enemy that beloved he had more power than him here on earth,and with perseverance defeated the enemy. It is meant to encourage not discourage. People like you that has been hurt by life's struggles and can't get back on your feet want everyone else to suffer with you....sorry. Not everyone here is weak.

By the way you want proof that GOD exists ok then look in the mirror and see what GOD created. Then go ask your scientists if they can duplicate you..not clone you but make another just like you...no degree in the world can match the wisdom of my GOD.   

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Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 03:11:01 PM
At least you admit that their accounts are fallible then. And so which other parts are incorrect as well?

Bbbbutt, it was God who wrote it all, and He doesn't make mistakes!  :57:

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 03:57:33 PM
I in the right place and simple is the only way to be. I don't have impress you with words just put them in your ear. If you are an older person and think you are more knowledgeable because of it then your sadly mistaken. I don't have to address all of life's atrocities to understand the bible. It has stories in it to show people like you that no one is perfect and anyone can change for the better. You look at the bible with your piercing eye just as the Jews Jesus. Always looking to discredit what you can make out. That's what cowards do. Forget the people in the bible and there names what does the story tell you about evil people and there wicked hearts. The real story is about one man standing up to an enemy that beloved he had more power than him here on earth,and with perseverance defeated the enemy. It is meant to encourage not discourage. People like you that has been hurt by life's struggles and can't get back on your feet want everyone else to suffer with you....sorry. Not everyone here is weak.

By the way you want proof that GOD exists ok then look in the mirror and see what GOD created. Then go ask your scientists if they can duplicate you..not clone you but make another just like you...no degree in the world can match the wisdom of my GOD.

My conclusion is that you are hopelessly deluded, and there is no further reason to entertain your bullshit.

:sign0024:

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 03:57:33 PM
I in the right place and simple is the only way to be. I don't have impress you with words just put them in your ear. If you are an older person and think you are more knowledgeable because of it then your sadly mistaken. I don't have to address all of life's atrocities to understand the bible. It has stories in it to show people like you that no one is perfect and anyone can change for the better. You look at the bible with your piercing eye just as the Jews Jesus. Always looking to discredit what you can make out. That's what cowards do. Forget the people in the bible and there names what does the story tell you about evil people and there wicked hearts. The real story is about one man standing up to an enemy that beloved he had more power than him here on earth,and with perseverance defeated the enemy. It is meant to encourage not discourage. People like you that has been hurt by life's struggles and can't get back on your feet want everyone else to suffer with you....sorry. Not everyone here is weak.

By the way you want proof that GOD exists ok then look in the mirror and see what GOD created. Then go ask your scientists if they can duplicate you..not clone you but make another just like you...no degree in the world can match the wisdom of my GOD.   

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There you go, using your own book to defend your own book - very, very circular of you again - GAWD, how do you not get too dizzy to see straight? Oh...that explains why you cannot! We are the weak, and you are the strong - just keep clinging to that mental raft, hold on for dear life, and don't let go!

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 04:09:51 PM
My conclusion is that you are hopelessly deluded, and there is no further reason to entertain your bullshit.

:sign0024:

Well that means a lot to me....[emoji3]

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Hey guys on a serious note I an learning a lot from you guys..It won't change who I am but thanks for not kicking me off the site. Maybe we can discuss what we have in common one day.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 04:19:29 PM
Well that means a lot to me....[emoji3]

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If an atheist thinks you're wrong, than that automatically makes you right?

What works so well about your religion the way you practice it is that it is completely unassailable, owing to the absolute status which you give it. You cannot question it, and you will never test its teachings, and because it is logically unfalsifiable (as are pink unicorns) nobody can disprove the veracity of your beliefs. Just hold tight behind that full armor of your god and you will never go wrong, even if you never go right either. Is it really the armor that protects you, or is it the walls of a sensory deprivation chamber which isolates you?

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 04:25:32 PM
Hey guys on a serious note I an learning a lot from you guys..It won't change who I am but thanks for not kicking me off the site. Maybe we can discuss what we have in common one day.

I doubt it. If you can name something that you've learned, I'll be surprised. One thing you haven't learned, young Christian, is how to reason. That's going to be necessary to some extent, or you will get kicked off. And I won't miss you, because your not just a moron, you're an arrogant moron, who condescends to preach the Word to the poor weak atheists.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 13, 2015, 04:46:29 PM
I doubt it. If you can name something that you've learned, I'll be surprised. One thing you haven't learned, young Christian, is how to reason. That's going to be necessary to some extent, or you will get kicked off. And I won't miss you, because your not just a moron, you're an arrogant moron, who condescends to preach the Word to the poor weak atheists.

I have learned that your atheism is not about hatred in other people like most Christians believe but oddly enough about right vs wrong and having proof to back any statement. Now as for as you go Old man I ask if you to stop with the derogatory comments about me. That makes you seem very ignorant and poor.

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Sorry for calling you a moron. I should have said delusional zealot.

And yet you DO surprise me with your attempt to understand where I'm coming from for a change, instead of preaching.

I could stop with the derogatory comments if you like, but that means you'll have to stop reasoning in circles, and condescending to preach at me. I don't think you can do it. Do you?

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 04:25:32 PM
Hey guys on a serious note I an learning a lot from you guys..It won't change who I am but thanks for not kicking me off the site. Maybe we can discuss what we have in common one day.

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Evangelists want to change who you are.  This is why evangelists wear out their welcome mat early, on the Web or at home ;-)  There is always a bit of disturbing egotism around evangelists.  Even the Buddha, the first great evangelist, was guilty of it.

"field of blood"  basically the same as Ge-Hinnom ... public property, the land fill, not kosher because of the blood, and other trash.  Fires burned there constantly to get rid of what was burnable.  For people in Jerusalem, this was synonymous with Hell ... and since in one extra-Biblical retelling, Jesus descended into Hell ... this matches the most likely scenario, that his body wasn't laid in an expensive un-used tomb, but put out with the rest of the trash.  Only the rich got tombs ... the rest got something like that stone quarry pit from Ben Hur where the lepers were being segregated.  Again because the dead are non-kosher ... archeology shows that Calvary wasn't a hill, but an unused quarry.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 13, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
So much waste over a fictional character. Get a fucking life, moron.

This is why I would rather believe in Da'an ... a fictional character from a more modern fiction ;-)

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 12:30:54 PM
I really see that you don't understand the bible. By the way it's written by men but inspire by God which no other book on this earth can say. And please give me just one error the BIBLE has that YOU found and I'll be more that happy to explain it to... Now don't cheat and Google anything. I want to test your knowledge of you have any. And by the way Because I see how illiterate you are when it comes to scripture. A parable is a earthly experience with a spiritual meaning...I sorry maybe that's too deep. Lol.

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You understand the Bible?  As opposed to know about it?  Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE

Show that to your professors ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2015, 11:17:20 PM
You understand the Bible?  As opposed to know about it?  Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE

Show that to your professors ;-)

WTH

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Many make claims, but few actually know what they are talking about.  The modest realize this, and don't make embarrassing claims.  So how much Sumerian cuneiform have you studied?  Or Egyptian hieroglyphic?  Not that anything is wrong with repeating polemic and apologetic ... but they aren't modern scholarship neither ;-))

Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2015, 11:17:20 PM
You understand the Bible?  As opposed to know about it?  Really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE

Show that to your professors ;-)

Oh, that's perfect! I have to watch that again. And share with friends.

Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 11:20:17 PM
WTH

WTH indeed! WTF even! You just got bitch-slapped by a fellow theist!  :sign0081:

You must be a woman cause you sound like one...

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Quote from: g2perk on November 13, 2015, 02:53:52 PM
Josh....in Proverbs 14:15 it says the simple believes everything but the prudent gives thought to all his steps.

Which one are you?

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(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/cr.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/cr.jpg.html)

Took you that long to find an answer on the internet...I have learned something else about atheism you guys hate Circles...lol.

It must be horribly terrifying for an atheist to go through a round-a bout.. 

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
You must be a woman cause you sound like one...

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Ooo...you really zinged me there! I don't think I can possibly top that...calling me a woman, I mean...wow...what a low blow...and clever at the same time...I'll have to think for a day or two... maybe come up with something on the same level.

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I'm disappointed with the way people here handle disagreement. I thought that atheists were supposed to be open minded and tolerant. Based on my experiences with atheists both before and after I lost my faith, atheists tend to have a superiority complex, and quickly resort to name calling. I don't care how enlightened or intelligent you think you are, it doesn't give you permission to be an ass to someone who dares to be wrong on the internet. That kind of attitude will not change anyone's mind; it'll just turn them off from your point-of-view.

Ironically, some here also seem to forget the possibility that they could be wrong. If you were wrong when you were a Christian, you can still be wrong when you're an atheist or non-Christian. Instead of keeping a cool head and a mind open for the possibilities, some would rather discredit and demean whoever offends them with their different opinions.

Okay...I've got one:

If you're wondering if I'm a man or not, just ask your mom. :toilet:

But if you're wondering why God brought you here, it was to witness the secret Atheist transformation...you see, this is my 665 post which means on the next post I become...

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
You must be a woman cause you sound like one...

what does a woman sound like?

...The Prince of Darkness

Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 11:46:08 AM
what does a woman sound like?

The opposite of a real man..

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 12:19:58 PM
The opposite of a real man..

You must be a rocket surgeon! Am I right?

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
Took you that long to find an answer on the internet..

With the Paris attack and other world issues, yours with your obsession for an imaginary sky daddy is the least important. But don't let your egomaniacal self-absorbed stupidity trip you on the way out.

Your right...that is more important than you...

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Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 12:38:49 PM
You must be a rocket surgeon! Am I right?

Rocket surgeon.....whAt...

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:11:08 PM
Rocket surgeon.....whAt...

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The jig is up ... we know you are really Dr Carson ;-))

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:22:36 PM
The jig is up ... we know you are really Dr Carson ;-))

Well then can I have your vote..

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Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 14, 2015, 07:40:06 AM
Oh, that's perfect! I have to watch that again. And share with friends.
WTH indeed! WTF even! You just got bitch-slapped by a fellow theist!  :sign0081:

I don't like doing that ... maybe he was misusing the word "understand'.  I am not sure anyone understands the Bible (as a believer) or Being & Nothingness by Sartre!  But someone on my side of the fence, needs to edumacate the less mature theists ... I am not sure seminary professors are up to it!

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:10:24 PM
Your right...that is more important than you...

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Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame on this forum. Soon, the members of this forum will get tired of your endless butthurt postings. You're a total waste. Have a nice life.

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
You must be a woman cause you sound like one...

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We were all women originally ... for the first few days in the womb, until the Y chromosome triggered testosterone kicks in.  For some it fails to kick in, and you have women with Y chromosomes ... and sometimes it kicks in when it shouldn't ... and we have men with XX chromosomes.  Initially we get the mother's blood which is full of estrogen, and the egg is far larger than the sperm ... quite feminizing as any woman could tell you.

So are you sure you want to diss your own mother?

Wait, I missed a memo. Is calling someone a woman as an insult a thing?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 14, 2015, 01:27:05 PM
Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame on this forum. Soon, the members of this forum will get tired of your endless butthurt postings. You're a total waste. Have a nice life.

Hold up my friend Every comment you and your friends make are harsh and against me am I suppose to let you disrespect me. I try and make a good comment and your just sarcastic as hell. If you can't handle it don't dish it.

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Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:30:15 PM
We were all women originally ... for the first few days in the womb, until the Y chromosome triggered testosterone kicks in.  For some it fails to kick in, and you have women with Y chromosomes ... and sometimes it kicks in when it shouldn't ... and we have men with XX chromosomes.  Initially we get the mother's blood which is full of estrogen, and the egg is far larger than the sperm ... quite feminizing as any woman could tell you.

So are you sure you want to diss your own mother?

Wow.....that's amazing if it's true.

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Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:30:15 PM
We were all women originally ... for the first few days in the womb, until the Y chromosome triggered testosterone kicks in.  For some it fails to kick in, and you have women with Y chromosomes ... and sometimes it kicks in when it shouldn't ... and we have men with XX chromosomes.  Initially we get the mother's blood which is full of estrogen, and the egg is far larger than the sperm ... quite feminizing as any woman could tell you.

So are you sure you want to diss your own mother?

Diss is that a black word..are you racists as well..

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:34:18 PM
Wow.....that's amazing if it's true.

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Well female/male is relative anyway ... and there are many other variations in hermaphroditism and gay biology.

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
Took you that long to find an answer on the internet...I have learned something else about atheism you guys hate Circles...lol.

It must be horribly terrifying for an atheist to go through a round-a bout.. 

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Roundabouts are dangerous ... because most drivers are unfamiliar with them.  Circular logic ... means that you can prove anything, and its opposite.  Please study propositional and predicate logic when you have the time.  On the other hand, religions with reincarnation ... can't be logically disproved for that very reason ;-)  As a theist ... I not only handle circular logic with ease, I can do linear logic too.  And I drive roundabouts all the time ... it is the other drivers who are dangerous.  Que Darth Vader theme music ... while I find the "lack of faith" of atheists disturb the Force ... my mother says I can't telepathically strangle people anymore ;-(

Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 11:46:08 AM
what does a woman sound like?

The sound of one pocketbook/purse closing ... after she pays for her shopping ;-)  It is Zen.

Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 01:31:50 PM
Wait, I missed a memo. Is calling someone a woman as an insult a thing?

It isn't what you say, but how you say it.  I could see his sneer right thru my computer screen ... or maybe I am imagining things.  I rather think women are superior, but that is my POV.

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:36:31 PM
Roundabouts are dangerous ... because most drivers are unfamiliar with them.  Circular logic ... means that you can prove anything, and its opposite.  Please study propositional and predicate logic when you have the time.  On the other hand, religions with reincarnation ... can't be logically disproved for that very reason ;-)  As a theist ... I not only handle circular logic with ease, I can do linear logic too.  And I drive roundabouts all the time ... it is the other drivers who are dangerous.  Que Darth Vader theme music ... while I find the "lack of faith of atheists disturb the Force ... my mother says I can't telepathically strangle people anymore ;-(

So Barcuh. You believe in GOD . since your as Theist.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:35:32 PM
Diss is that a black word..are you racists as well..

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I yam what I yam ... but I am not Popeye ... that is another character who posts here ;-)  And I am a fan of Alice In Wonderland ... like Humpty Dumpty ... a word means exactly what I want it to mean, not more and not less.  If you can't handle urban slang ... check out my posts in French.

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
So Barcuh. You believe in GOD . since your as Theist.

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I not only believe in G-d ... I know G-d personally ... and I ain't even an Evangelical Christian.  But I am also a stiff necked freethinking Jewish person ... at heart anyway.  Why am I here ... because atheists are interesting people to talk to ... mostly because they are non-conformists.  Nothing wrong with being a conformist ... but boring ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:48:08 PM
I not only believe in G-d ... I know G-d personally ... and I ain't even an Evangelical Christian.  But I am also a stiff necked freethinking Jewish person ... at heart anyway.  Why am I here ... because atheists are interesting people to talk to ... mostly because they are non-conformists.  Nothing wrong with being a conformist ... but boring ;-)

Then why can't you and I get along.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:49:57 PM
Then why can't you and I get along.

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Are you Rodney King?  Am I from the LAPD?  We are getting along ... I like you a lot (but don't tell the others ... they are a tough bunch of street wise hoodlums).  Gotta go to lunch ... hope to see you around later.

Quote from: Blackleaf on November 14, 2015, 11:41:53 AM
I'm disappointed with the way people here handle disagreement. I thought that atheists were supposed to be open minded and tolerant. Based on m1y experiences with atheists both before and after I lost my faith, atheists tend to have a superiority complex, and quickly resort to name calling. I don't care how enlightened or intelligent you think you are, it doesn't give you permission to be an ass to someone who dares to be wrong on the internet. That kind of attitude will not change anyone's mind; it'll just turn them off from your point-of-view.

Ironically, some here also seem to forget the possibility that they could be wrong. If you were wrong when you were a Christian, you can still be wrong when you're an atheist or non-Christian. Instead of keeping a cool head and a mind open for the possibilities, some would rather discredit and demean whoever offends them with their different opinions.

PHPTPHPHTPHPHTPHPHTPHPTHT!!!
I'm seeing far more stooping to personal attacks and name-calling by g2perk. Right now it's about as childish as you would see anywhere.

Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 01:31:50 PM
Wait, I missed a memo. Is calling someone a woman as an insult a thing?

Only with middle-school boys who are on track to become macho losers.

Quote from: Mermaid on November 14, 2015, 01:31:50 PM
Wait, I missed a memo. Is calling someone a woman as an insult a thing?

I pondered that assertion myself, but I didn't get very far.  I just ended up wondering which sex got the dirtier end of that barb.

Quote from: SGOS on November 14, 2015, 02:39:05 PM
I pondered that assertion myself, but I didn't get very far.  I just ended up wondering which sex got the dirtier end of that barb.

Women play eleven dimensional chess ... they know, and won't bother telling us checkers playing men ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 01:43:21 PM
It isn't what you say, but how you say it.  I could see his sneer right thru my computer screen ... or maybe I am imagining things.  I rather think women are superior, but that is my POV.

I would never insult women like that. I love love woman.

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Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 01:34:18 PM
Wow.....that's amazing if it's true.

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yeah, a little education can go a long way here, you should try it.

You want to be safe?  Hang out in dark alleys. Why?  They're dark because nobody is there. I've concluded that terrorists never target dark alleys.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 15, 2015, 12:51:16 PM
You want to be safe?  Hang out in dark alleys. Why?  They're dark because nobody is there. I've concluded that terrorists never target dark alleys.

The opposite of a drunk looking for his keys ;-)