The largest 500 U.S. companies would owe an estimated $620 billion in U.S. taxes were it not for the more than $2.1 trillion in offshore cash that most of the firms hold in foreign tax havens, according to a study Offshore Shell Games (http://ctj.org/pdf/offshoreshell2015.pdf)
Top of the list:
(1) Apple with $181.1 billion. If those profits were taxed at U.S. rates, the company would pay $59.2 billion.
(2) General Electric with $119 billion.
(3) Microsoft holds $108.3 billion in offshore cash.
0 fucks given by congress. They get their money.
There's not enough rage in the population, and so many, among them certain politicians, get away with anything. I mean $620 billions are being whisked away, and that's every year. Fuck, if people don't get it, and money is something everyone understands, nothing will.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 24, 2015, 02:38:45 PM
There's not enough rage in the population, and so many, among them certain politicians, get away with anything. I mean $620 billions are being whisked away, and that's every year. Fuck, if people don't get it, and money is something everyone understands, nothing will.
I wish people did understand money ... but they don't. Most people are innumerate and their ideas of society are little different than children hunting for Easter eggs. Even educated people have as much agreement on money, as theologians do about G-d.
Now I am neither for nor against taxation. It is just something that all governments do ... and it can be done smartly or stupidly. Lately it seems that stupidity is on the upswing.
Quote from: Baruch on October 24, 2015, 02:57:21 PM
I wish people did understand money ... but they don't.
They may not understand economic principles but people understand money, especially when it hurts their pocket.
QuoteNow I am neither for nor against taxation.
Politicians count on people like you who don't give a shit.
I didn't realize Apple was at the top of the list. Oddly, just the other day, I was talking to my ex on the phone, and she said she refuses to buy anything made by Apple for that reason alone.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 24, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
They may not understand economic principles but people understand money, especially when it hurts their pocket.
Politicians count on people like you who don't give a shit.
We will have to differ on both points. And you do "project" a little much, if I might be Freudian for a moment.
If it was only that it escaped taxes, would be one thing, but the problem is this money is then used to stifle competition, giving the big players almost total control of the markets, and in the longer run stifles the innovation which is what gives western society its edge.
Little peanuts. Look at the states refusing medicaid expansion. Most of the voters in those states will tell you that it's THEIR TAXES that pay for someone else in other states to get medicaid and health care and how unfair it is.
What they never see is it's their own states refusal to accept the expansion and how much it actually cost them by not taking advantage of it. The republicans have a hell of a scam. They get elected and reelected for not getting health care for their own citizens when they're still paying for it.
Ask yourself if your elected officials came to you and said, "You should pay for something you'll never get a single benefit from and vote for me to make sure you never get it." should you vote for them?
Unfortunately all of politics is a hell of a scam .. including George Washington. And I say that as a non-anarchist and patriot. For me government is more than the rotten core of politicians at the center of it.
Quote from: jonb on October 24, 2015, 09:26:37 PM
If it was only that it escaped taxes, would be one thing, but the problem is this money is then used to stifle competition, giving the big players almost total control of the markets, and in the longer run stifles the innovation which is what gives western society its edge.
No, the tax money is a big thing. Tax that could go toward infrastructure that they use, education that could be subsidized, providing access to some where before there was none. This list could go on as a giant wall of text that nobody would read, so I'll stop ............here.
Quote from: Baruch on October 24, 2015, 06:28:41 PM
We will have to differ on both points. And you do "project" a little much, if I might be Freudian for a moment.
It's not a question of having different points of view but that you are a total ignoramus when it comes to economic matter, and that you are in total denial of that fact. Just because you might have read some books written for the public on such things doesn't make you educated in that field. It's like someone reading a wikipage on Quantum Mechanics, and then you think you know the subject. No, you don't.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2015, 07:43:49 AM
It's not a question of having different points of view but that you are a total ignoramus when it comes to economic matter, and that you are in total denial of that fact. Just because you might have read some books written for the public on such things doesn't make you educated in that field. It's like someone reading a wikipage on Quantum Mechanics, and then you think you know the subject. No, you don't.
Please get back on your meds ;-) I am only an interested amateur in physics ... but I actually can see thru the economics fraud ... and you cannot. Ideology is like that.
Quote from: Baruch on October 25, 2015, 11:55:58 AM
I am only an interested amateur in physics ... but I actually can see thru the economics fraud ... and you cannot. Ideology is like that.
This is where you show your ignorance. Politicians might use economics in a fraudulent way, and many do that unfortunately, but economics is in itself neutral. Same with science. That's why an educated population would nix at the voting station any politician who doesn't have a rudiment grasp of sound economic principle. Unfortunately, the population at large is clueless about the subject, leaving wide open doors for the unscrupulous politician to get away with it.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2015, 12:07:21 PM
This is where you show your ignorance. Politicians might use economics in a fraudulent way, and many do that unfortunately, but economics is in itself neutral. Same with science. That's why an educated population would nix at the voting station any politician who doesn't have a rudiment grasp of sound economic principle. Unfortunately, the population at large is clueless about the subject, leaving wide open doors for the unscrupulous politician to get away with it.
If economics were only about bushels of wheat ... then one can come to an objective judgement. But once money is involved, and it has since the price system replaced barter long ago ... we are left with spooky action at a distance ... from the Treasury. This is where Adam Smith fails ... he believes there is a free market, that doesn't involve price fixing in high places ... but it isn't real ... price fixing is always a tempting necessity. Supply, demand and price have always been too important to be left to any free market. Oligopoly and oligopsony are the norm ... just like "fixed" elections.
Quote from: Baruch on October 25, 2015, 12:42:45 PM
If economics were only about bushels of wheat ... then one can come to an objective judgement. But once money is involved, and it has since the price system replaced barter long ago ... we are left with spooky action at a distance ... from the Treasury.
It's not spooky action at a distance. The FED has a fundamental role in the economy - why every country has a central bank. Sure, the FED can make mistakes in misdiagnosing the state of the economy, after all it's made up of humans, and humans are prone to err. But more often than not, like your local weatherman, they are right - just that people remember more the odd times they're wrong than the plentiful times they were right. In order to understand the FED's actions, you need to understand (1) where the economy is currently at, (2) in what direction it is moving. (like basic physics problem: you need to know initial conditions to solve the equation).
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2015, 01:13:16 PM
It's not spooky action at a distance. The FED has a fundamental role in the economy - why every country has a central bank. Sure, the FED can make mistakes in misdiagnosing the state of the economy, after all it's made up of humans, and humans are prone to err. But more often than not, like your local weatherman, they are right - just that people remember more the odd times they're wrong than the plentiful times they were right. In order to understand the FED's actions, you need to understand (1) where the economy is currently at, (2) in what direction it is moving. (like basic physics problem: you need to know initial conditions to solve the equation).
HAhahah ... the Fed is a criminal conspiracy by the Rothschilds and the Bank of England. Any real American understands why Jefferson and Jackson got rid of our Hamiltonian conspiracy (they tried to assassinate Jackson twice). And why the money men had to kill Lincoln (Greenbacks ... same reason for killing Kennedy). What did Wilson say about the money men after he did their dirty work? What did Lord Acton say about the Bank of England? Yes, we need a central bank, just like we need Mafia. And that is because the only society that can ever be, is a criminal conspiracy by criminals ... even if money hasn't been invented yet. Criminals holding a polite tea and discussing ethics .. but for me I will dribble tea all over, because I can't get over the absurdity. Like a Parisian salon discussing Voltaire, while the peasants have no bread.
Quote from: Baruch on October 25, 2015, 03:16:50 PM
HAhahah ... the Fed is a criminal conspiracy by the Rothschilds and the Bank of England. Any real American understands why Jefferson and Jackson got rid of our Hamiltonian conspiracy (they tried to assassinate Jackson twice). And why the money men had to kill Lincoln (Greenbacks ... same reason for killing Kennedy). What did Wilson say about the money men after he did their dirty work? What did Lord Acton say about the Bank of England? Yes, we need a central bank, just like we need Mafia. And that is because the only society that can ever be, is a criminal conspiracy by criminals ... even if money hasn't been invented yet. Criminals holding a polite tea and discussing ethics .. but for me I will dribble tea all over, because I can't get over the absurdity. Like a Parisian salon discussing Voltaire, while the peasants have no bread.
You realize that none of that has anything to do with economics... oh wait, you're too fucking ignorant to know the difference...
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2015, 03:43:25 PM
You realize that none of that has anything to do with economics... oh wait, you're too fucking ignorant to know the difference...
I think I will pay attention to Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln and Wilson had to say. They got along just fine, without being academics (except Wilson was ... that is why he was tricked into approving the FedRes and Income Tax ... he as too smart for his own britches, a bit like Obama)..
Quote from: Baruch on October 25, 2015, 06:12:46 PM
I think I will pay attention to Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln and Wilson had to say. They got along just fine, without being academics (except Wilson was ... that is why he was tricked into approving the FedRes and Income Tax ... he as too smart for his own britches, a bit like Obama)..
FYI: politicians are the last persons to understand economics. Start with this wikipage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics#Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics#Theory), at least to get a clue what economics is all about, not that a wikipage will get you an education but at least it's a start. It's never too late to learn.
Here's a free pdf on Introduction to economics: http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/sites/default/files/programme_resources/lse/lse_pdf/subject_guides/ec1002_ch1-4.pdf. If you're not afraid to use some math knowledge along the way. If your math is fairly descent, skip to page 23, and do some reading, dude.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 26, 2015, 07:20:08 AM
FYI: politicians are the last persons to understand economics. Start with this wikipage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics#Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics#Theory), at least to get a clue what economics is all about, not that a wikipage will get you an education but at least it's a start. It's never too late to learn.
Here's a free pdf on Introduction to economics: http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/sites/default/files/programme_resources/lse/lse_pdf/subject_guides/ec1002_ch1-4.pdf. If you're not afraid to use some math knowledge along the way. If your math is fairly descent, skip to page 23, and do some reading, dude.
I thought you didn't like wikipedia ... have you converted to the one true Internet religion? ;-) Read the article on the Bush family ... total lies.
Quote from: Baruch on October 26, 2015, 07:21:58 AM
I thought you didn't like wikipedia ...
Your memory is poor. What I said is that some people read a page on wikipedia and then think they know the subject, which they don't. I gave you a page on wikipedia as a start, then gave you another link to start your education on the subject. But I reckon that you are too comfortable with your ignorance, and my suggestion was a waste of time.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 24, 2015, 02:38:45 PM
There's not enough rage in the population, and so many, among them certain politicians, get away with anything.
Of course there is. It just goes towards rage at things like foreign aid (how can we take care of poor black people over there when there are poor white people over here?!), Medicaid (it just goes to illegals Mexicans and selfish single mothers, duh!), unemployment (those lazy people just don't want to work!) and Planned Parenthood.
There's more than enough rage to go around. I'd argue it's our chief export. The problem is that it's just artfully misdirected, and we're instructed to squabble over the crumbs while companies like Apple and Walmart make off with the whole fucking cake.
I actually just finished reading the report and doing some research on the U.S. budget. The report indicates that 358 of the Fortune 500 companies operated subsidiaries in offshore tax haven jurisdictions at the end of 2014. Collectively they held more than $2.1 trillion in accumulated profits overseas, which would have amounted to approximately $620 billion after those foreign countries took their cut. If those tax dollars had been brought back home, they could directly funded the following agencies in 2014...
Department of Health and Human Services ($78.3 billion)
Department of Education ($71.2 billion)
Department of Veterans Affairs ($63.5 billion)
National Intelligence Program ($48.2 billion)
Department of State ($48.1 billion)
Department of Homeland Security ($39 billion)
Department of Housing and Urban Development ($33.1 billion)
Department of Energy ($28.4 billion)
Department of Agriculture ($21.5 billion)
National Aeronautics and Space Administration ($17.7 billion)
Department of Justice ($16.3 billion)
Department of Transportation ($16.3 billion)
Department of the Treasury ($12.9 billion)
Department of Labor ($12.1 billion)
Department of the Interior ($11.7 billion)
Department of Commerce ($8.6 billion)
Environmental Protection Agency ($8.2 billion)
National Science Foundation ($7.6 billion)
Army Corps of Engineers ($4.7 billion)
… and given them a 13.5% budget increase.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 26, 2015, 07:50:09 AM
Your memory is poor. What I said is that some people read a page on wikipedia and then think they know the subject, which they don't. I gave you a page on wikipedia as a start, then gave you another link to start your education on the subject. But I reckon that you are too comfortable with your ignorance, and my suggestion was a waste of time.
You are hung on your own petard again! I understand economics from first principles, not from a propaganda Wiki page. Wiki like Google is CIA also. First principle ... no work, no eat. Second principle like the first ... there is no free lunch. Third principle ... civilization is based on parasitic exploitation of farming, ranching etc by armed thugs. Case in point ... Rome ... founded by cattle thieves and rapists 2800 years ago, but still going strong. If the surrounding farmers in Latium, had exterminated the thugs around the seven hills of crime ... there would have been no Republic, nor Empire. But they failed, as did the Etruscans to the north. Crime does pay ... that is how I get paid ;-) The system was reinvented in France, in the Middle Ages ... the local landlords hired thugs called "knickts" to go rob and terrorize the peasants. That is how you convert common lands into private lordly lands ... that is what England did in Scotland in the 1700s to get rid of the Highlanders. Knickts = knights.
Quote from: Baruch on October 26, 2015, 12:55:10 PM
You are hung on your own petard again! I understand economics from first principles, not from a propaganda Wiki page. Wiki like Google is CIA also. First principle ... no work, no eat. Second principle like the first ... there is no free lunch. Third principle ... civilization is based on parasitic exploitation of farming, ranching etc by armed thugs. Case in point ... Rome ... founded by cattle thieves and rapists 2800 years ago, but still going strong. If the surrounding farmers in Latium, had exterminated the thugs around the seven hills of crime ... there would have been no Republic, nor Empire. But they failed, as did the Etruscans to the north. Crime does pay ... that is how I get paid ;-) The system was reinvented in France, in the Middle Ages ... the local landlords hired thugs called "knickts" to go rob and terrorize the peasants. That is how you convert common lands into private lordly lands ... that is what England did in Scotland in the 1700s to get rid of the Highlanders. Knickts = knights.
You're a total waste.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 26, 2015, 12:57:16 PM
You're a total waste.
I can't believe you are ignorant of history. And I can only laugh at your ignoring of history. But don't feel bad, you give me a good laugh!