Hi everybody.
I heard about this forum on the Thinking Atheist Forum and thought I'd come check it out :-)
I started the journey out of religion 10-12 years ago. I was brought up in a closed lutheran community, but as I entered my late teens, some things started to rub me the wrong way. One thing in particular was that I found it harder and harder to accept that homosexuality was wrong, without any sound reason. I could not make myself accept that I should deny people the right to love who they wanted, without any good reason why! Of course my own bisexuality did not make this easier.
It took years and years, but slowly the pretence crumbled and I became more and more disillusioned with religion. Eventually, I overcame the last of the fear and now it's been around 7 years since I first called myself an atheist. The freedom to think for myself, form my own opinions and allow myself to embrace reality is still exhilarating to me and fortunately, while my family is still deeply religious, they are taking my atheism well without trying to reconvert me, and I am surrounded my amazing friends and a boyfriend who are also nicely religion free. Still, what I do miss in my life is knowing people who, like me, have been religious in the past and have left religion. My friends are great and do their best to understand, still, they can't understand how I could ever believe in the silly things I believed in and they don't know what it's like to extract oneself from fundamentalistic religion. How much fear is involved. I appreciate the opportunity the internet gives to meet other people who have been through the drill.
I'm looking forward to meeting you all :-)
By the way, english is not my first language, so I apologize for the grammatic-/spelling-mistakes I'm bound to make!
SPEAK merikan dammit!
Welcome to the forum. You seem to have the English thing down pretty good. Heck, I don't even have it down and I was raised in Ohio .. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
Welcome to the forum, LadyDay--and your English is great!
I'm from England, and my posts are terrible due to my dyslexia, so It looks as though you are going to have to overlook our 'errras' rather than the other way around. So what is your native tongue?
Thanks for the welcome and the encouragement guys. I'll practise my "merikan" to the best of my ability, but it's good to know I won't be chased off the forum in shame for making mistakes. Haha
jon: England is one of my very favourite countries! Where in England are you from? That makes us neighbours too! I'm from Denmark, so my native tongue is danish.
I'm your cockney bloke.
(http://www.comedycentral.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/image-w-760-scale/public/cc_uk/galleries/large/2015/07/01/mary-poppins-15-5.gif?itok=MR8xDtsy)
From the smoke of London where we're 'aving a right old knees up.
Is it true that in Denmark it is commonly thought the English have no sense of humour?
Anyway one of our favourite comediennes comes from Denmark.
Sandi Toksvig
https://youtu.be/Sii8p8-qc_c
I love Danish, life without your bacon would be unimaginable. And my wife would like to know what is the fashionable knitwear being worn in this seasons Danish crime dramas?
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/21/1298313168091/Sarah-Lund-in-The-Killing-007.jpg)
Haha. I think maybe in the past the english were rumoured to have no sense of humour. But by now Britain has produced so much incredible comedy (Faulty Towers and Ricky Gervais jumps to mind) the english humour is revered as possibly the best on the planet and the Germans have inherited the reputation of having no sense of humour (I happen to be madly in love with a german, so I can tease them). :D
The knitwear is not a particular brand or anything. It's traditional scandinavian. The pattern, or variations thereof, is widely used all over Scandinavia. So I guess we're just a fashionable people! Haha (I'm currently dressed like a hobo pretty much)
Oh, and Denmark loves you too! English bacon-consumption makes up half our economy! ;)
welcome to the forum. Your english will be fine. APA is from Ohio, they don't have high expectations there…heheheheh
(http://cdn.totallycostumes.com/images/ss-276655-long-blonde-braids-wig___5_FF-57305.jpg)
Like this? Welcome.
Welcome also.
Vikings are hawt.
(http://www.omega-level.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Hell-Yeah-Thor..png)
FOR ODIN!!
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/d9/84/53d984a21d03063821f03bb12d8e56ee.jpg)
Quote from: Munch on October 20, 2015, 08:48:06 PM
Vikings are hawt.
(http://www.omega-level.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Hell-Yeah-Thor..png)
This one is hotter.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/taj2tu.jpg)
Hell, this one is too. I'm not even into girls, but this one almost makes me want to be.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/ouv6de.jpg)
And welcome, LadyDay. Your English is quite excellent. I understand what you mean about the fear involved in leaving a religion, especially when a lot of people you love are still stuck in it.
A Dane! Alfred would be most displeased. lol Welcome!
Thankyou so much for the warm welcome everyone. You're all so nice! I think I shall like it here!
Quote from: stromboli on October 20, 2015, 05:19:33 PM
(http://cdn.totallycostumes.com/images/ss-276655-long-blonde-braids-wig___5_FF-57305.jpg)
Like this? Welcome.
stromboli, where did you find that picture of me? :rotflmao:
Yes, we scandinavians all look exactly like those vikings.... Totally! :72:
Well. Maybe not quite. And we don't rutinely pillage the english much anymore. Guess we're slacking off a bit. But the danish youth still hold the world record in alcohol consumption. So there's that. We're damn proud of that!
Who's Alfred and how have danes displeased him? :03: Whatever we did we promise we didn't mean to. We were drunk, and the english were acting up, so it just happened. We swear!
King Alfred of Wessex circa 850 CE ... who fought the roving Great "Danish" Army to a standstill in S England ... leaving N England to never-the-less called the Danelaw ... where Danish law was the norm, not Anglo-Saxon law. Niels Bohr was considerably more friendly, particularly to physics grad students visiting Copenhagen.
Here in the US, y'all are known for ham, Hamlet and Xmas cookies.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 20, 2015, 01:55:53 PM
Hi everybody.
I heard about this forum on the Thinking Atheist Forum and thought I'd come check it out :-)
Welcome.
Welcome to the forum! :-)
I'm English too - from Cornwall right down in the South West... where men are men and sheep are nervous!
Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2015, 06:13:05 AM
King Alfred of Wessex circa 850 CE ... who fought the roving Great "Danish" Army to a standstill in S England ... leaving N England to never-the-less called the Danelaw ... where Danish law was the norm, not Anglo-Saxon law. Niels Bohr was considerably more friendly, particularly to physics grad students visiting Copenhagen.
Here in the US, y'all are known for ham, Hamlet and Xmas cookies.
Well, pillaging the english is kind of our national sport. It's all fun and games I'm sure... And certainly the english genepool benefited from the injection of danish genes. :mrgreen:
Okay, so maybe we've been a little unable to intimidate them lately..... These days we mostly enjoy Englands superior beer-/cider-production, the brilliant sense of humour of the english people, the greasy english pub food and the fact the english are among the friendliest people on the planet!
Do you have english heritage?
We're known for xmas cookies? I didn't even know that. I knew you lot had named Danish Pastries after us. Funny enough those are called "Viennese Bread" (literally), after the Austrian capital, in Denmark. Seems nobody wants responsibility for those things.
Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on October 21, 2015, 06:50:31 AM
Welcome to the forum! :-)
I'm English too - from Cornwall right down in the South West... where men are men and sheep are nervous!
Haha. The rumour of the close relationship between the british and their sheep HAS travelled over here. But then again, there might be rumours that danes have similar relationship to their pigs...... So who are we to judge?!
:lol:
Afternoon LadyDay, an welcome to the madhoose, :singing:
PS, im not english..... :kidra:
Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2015, 06:13:05 AM
King Alfred of Wessex circa 850 CE ... who fought the roving Great "Danish" Army to a standstill in S England ... leaving N England to never-the-less called the Danelaw ... where Danish law was the norm, not Anglo-Saxon law. Niels Bohr was considerably more friendly, particularly to physics grad students visiting Copenhagen.
Here in the US, y'all are known for ham, Hamlet and Xmas cookies.
And don't forget the morning Danish and coffee!
Quote from: Green Bottle on October 21, 2015, 08:40:34 AM
Afternoon LadyDay, an welcome to the madhoose, :singing:
PS, im not english..... :kidra:
Afternoon Mr. Green. And thankyou.
Always good to see the scottish around. Shared hobby of pillaging the english and all that ;)
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 21, 2015, 08:47:40 AM
And don't forget the morning Danish and coffee!
Not sure we can take credit for coffee.... :think:
I'm Swedish on one side and Welsh on the other, so I can claim coal miner roots and Viking roots (I know, its a long stretch) but guess which one I'd claim in conversation? Back in my drinking days I went Berserker a couple of times, so its in there.......
By the way, Viking influence on the English language comes in at #10, which by number of actual Vikings is pretty incredible. They were a very persuasive bunch.
Quote from: stromboli on October 21, 2015, 09:30:41 AM
I'm Swedish on one side and Welsh on the other, so I can claim coal miner roots and Viking roots (I know, its a long stretch) but guess which one I'd claim in conversation? Back in my drinking days I went Berserker a couple of times, so its in there.......
By the way, Viking influence on the English language comes in at #10, which by number of actual Vikings is pretty incredible. They were a very persuasive bunch.
You've got some solid celtic and scandinavian genes in there then! You'd probably excell with a great sword! ;)
Welcome to .com, LadyDay!
I'd be really interested in your take on this meme that's been making its rounds on social media lately.
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/i-am-a-school-teacher-in-denmark.jpg)
Quote from: LadyDay on October 21, 2015, 09:10:57 AM
Not sure we can take credit for coffee.... :think:
You're right. The Swedes should take credit for the coffee. :)
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 21, 2015, 10:07:53 AM
Welcome to .com, LadyDay!
I'd be really interested in your take on this meme that's been making its rounds on social media lately.
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/i-am-a-school-teacher-in-denmark.jpg)
There is some differences between Danish and American (U.S.) society. U.S. is more capitalistic and Denmark is more socialistic. What the meme does brush over is that we do not exactly live in some sort of Paradise where education and healthcare and everything is just handed to us for free. We
literally pay half of our income in taxes!
But I am very happy to live in a society where everyone has access to the best healthcare, everyone can get top education, nobody goes hungry and so on. I must admit I am shocked and saddned by how often I hear of American friends and aquaintances who do not have access to neccesary healthcare! For example I have a dear friend who has a serious drug problem. If he was in Denmark I'd know how to help. We have a whole, big system of doctors, shelters and socialworkers geared towards helping addicts, free of charge, it's all paid via taxes. I could take his hand and bring him right to the help! But because this friend is in USA, there's no social system in place to help! He's left completely alone with the issue! There is no therapeuts ready to help him deal with the absolute horror of his childhood, there's no medicine and doctors to help him through withdrawal, there's no socialworkers to help him integrate back into normal society. Nothing! If you were born fortunate, the USA is a great country I'm sure, but if you were born with a pedophile mother and extremely violent father and just never got a shot at life... Then you're screwed if you're in the great USA.
But nowhere is perfect though. Our current government is absolutely horrid and chopping away at our social system! Fortunately they are not likely to stay past next election!
Just wondering how a Dane felt about US right wing propaganda spin on your country. Yes some of the things are true. Others are outright lies. All are spun to make your country's political system sound like a complete failure.
Sorry for the rant by the way. You hit a nerve! Haha. (I am a socialistic atheist who was raised by christian fundamentalist right-wing (otherwise lovely) parents. I've fought for my freedom of mind!)
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 21, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Just wondering how a Dane felt about US right wing propaganda spin on your country. Yes some of the things are true. Others are outright lies. All are spun to make your country's political system sound like a complete failure.
I'm sorry I'm completely confused, maybe it's just that I'm a little tired and stressed, but how exactly does it make our system sound like a failure? The fact that we are a society, and as such help each other, it's hardly a mark of failure! In fact were one of the richest countries in the world, with least poverty (none, basically) and we score as the happiest country on the planet in the polls. I'd say we're doing pretty darn well with our socialistic ways ;-)
Quote from: LadyDay on October 21, 2015, 11:21:59 AM
I'm sorry I'm completely confused, maybe it's just that I'm a little tired and stressed, but how exactly does it make our system sound like a failure? The fact that we are a society, and as such help each other, it's hardly a mark of failure! In fact were one of the richest countries in the world, with least poverty (none, basically) and we score as the happiest country on the planet in the polls. I'd say we're doing pretty darn well with our socialistic ways ;-)
Lol, Sorry LadyDay. I didn't read the graphic I posted. This is the one I wanted to reference.
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/denmark-brutal-meme.jpg)
Quote from: LadyDay on October 21, 2015, 11:21:59 AM
I'm sorry I'm completely confused, maybe it's just that I'm a little tired and stressed, but how exactly does it make our system sound like a failure? The fact that we are a society, and as such help each other, it's hardly a mark of failure! In fact were one of the richest countries in the world, with least poverty (none, basically) and we score as the happiest country on the planet in the polls. I'd say we're doing pretty darn well with our socialistic ways ;-)
Presidential hopefuls recently had debate here and the democratic socialist, Bernie Sanders, pointed out Denmark as being an ideal model. Then Hilary Clinton went on this tirade about how "we're not Denmark!" and all I could think is, "Yeah... too bad." :(
I don't think the U.S. would be willing to court the idea of democratic socialism in the near future (maybe never) and I think it just makes us different. In some ways the American ideal of individualism and self-determination is great, but it leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 21, 2015, 08:25:27 AM
Well, pillaging the english is kind of our national sport. It's all fun and games I'm sure... And certainly the english genepool benefited from the injection of danish genes. :mrgreen:
Okay, so maybe we've been a little unable to intimidate them lately..... These days we mostly enjoy Englands superior beer-/cider-production, the brilliant sense of humour of the english people, the greasy english pub food and the fact the english are among the friendliest people on the planet!
Do you have english heritage?
We're known for xmas cookies? I didn't even know that. I knew you lot had named Danish Pastries after us. Funny enough those are called "Viennese Bread" (literally), after the Austrian capital, in Denmark. Seems nobody wants responsibility for those things.
It would seem that most Christian European nations have their own holiday pastries. I am American, but much interested in history ... and like most Americans, I have some GB/Irish ancestry.
Quote from: stromboli on October 21, 2015, 09:30:41 AM
I'm Swedish on one side and Welsh on the other, so I can claim coal miner roots and Viking roots (I know, its a long stretch) but guess which one I'd claim in conversation? Back in my drinking days I went Berserker a couple of times, so its in there.......
By the way, Viking influence on the English language comes in at #10, which by number of actual Vikings is pretty incredible. They were a very persuasive bunch.
Our days of the week, Tuesday thru Friday are Viking. Saturday is Latin. Sunday and Monday are Anglo-Saxon.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 21, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
Just wondering how a Dane felt about US right wing propaganda spin on your country. Yes some of the things are true. Others are outright lies. All are spun to make your country's political system sound like a complete failure.
Not a complete failure. Just Darwinian and punitive. Most often drug addicts are stuck in the judicial/penal system ... not sent to Narcanon. Self righteous puritans founded the US.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 21, 2015, 11:37:16 AM
Lol, Sorry LadyDay. I didn't read the graphic I posted. This is the one I wanted to reference.
(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/denmark-brutal-meme.jpg)
:57:
That is an incredible amount of bullshit in one place! Hahaha
I don't have time to go through the bullshit point for point right now, I'm about to go out for dinner, but I'll be happy to do so later. The first point of bullshit that had me shaking my head is the picture. I wonder if the danish ACTRESS in the picture has given her permission for the picture to be used like this. Her name is Mille Dinesen, she's one of the bigger actresses in the country, she is not a teacher named Mikkel Clair Nissen. Also, by the way, nobody would ever be named Mikkel Clair. Mikkel is a male name, Clair is a female name. It's like being named John Mary or something in english speaking countries. Oh, and the line about companies leaving Denmark was brilliant too. Ever heard of Danish companies such as Lego? Maersk? Vestas? Grundfos? All run out of little, tiny Denmark. And don't worry about their CEO's, they're all suitably millionaires, despite our social tax-system. ;-)
Basically all the rest is bullshit too, but I'll get to that later. But it makes me very happy that you don't just buy whatever propaganda comes your way! Good for you that you are sceptical and look into the actual reality! I'm sorry your politicians are trying to sell you lies like that. But I guess that's politics for you. :rolleyes:
You are right that it is positive to encourage people to do their best and take responsibility for their own lives. However, keep in mind that a system like ours also only works BECAUSE everybody does their best for themselves and for society. Our society is build on everybody working together, not on everybody just sitting on their asses and taking. :-)
It is of course correct though that USA is not Denmark. There is one very significant difference. Denmark is a tiny little country with a population of less than 6 million. USA is very, very big, very, very diverse and a very, very young nation. So it might be difficult to duplicate the danish system in the US, and it might not even be desireable. But I do think the US could learn a lot from f.ex. Germany. Another very big, relatively young and very diverse nation, also consisting of multiple different states, but with a healthy, efficient welfare-system, on a scale that's more comparable to USA than Denmark is. Also, if I were to live in another country than Denmark, Germany would probably be it. Germany is lovely!
Let me know if you ever find yourself over here, I'll take you out for coffee! :wink:
QuoteThat is an incredible amount of bullshit in one place! Hahaha
I don't have time to go through the bullshit point for point right now, I'm about to go out for dinner, but I'll be happy to do so later.
I'm looking forward to your point by point rebuttal. See, that kind of bullshit in the ad is what we expect in the US. Most people believe it. Some of us don't. We leave it to our party leaders to describe Denmark, because most of us can't afford to go there to see first hand the horrible oppression handed down from Stalin and Marx. Mention socialism in the US, and watch the collective blood pressure rise by 10 points. It's like yelling "fuck" in a Baptist Church.
I can not help but notice what sudden interest is produced in the boys on this forum, by the introduction of one Danish lady. Ladyday your boyfriend must feel a bit left out- so I found this for him so he can feel its his christmas too.
https://youtu.be/6lzQxjGL9S0
Hi LadyDay!
Happy "Back to the Future Day"!
I was raised in the Southern Baptist religion, and slowly thought my way free of it. It was an interesting experience, and now I'm completely free from the fear of burning in hell for eternity. I'd much rather be nonexistent, as I was before my conception. I hope you have fun here - this is a really fun place to hang out.
:azn:
Quote from: SGOS on October 21, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
I'm looking forward to your point by point rebuttal. See, that kind of bullshit in the ad is what we expect in the US. Most people believe it. Some of us don't. We leave it to our party leaders to describe Denmark, because most of us can't afford to go there to see first hand the horrible oppression handed down from Stalin and Marx. Mention socialism in the US, and watch the collective blood pressure rise by 10 points. It's like yelling "fuck" in a Baptist Church.
Haha. The horrible opression handed down from Stalin and Marx? We don't know about that, that was in a different part of the world. Denmark wasn't part of the Soviet Union and we were actually on your side during the Cold War. Politically and culturally Denmark leans significantly more towards the US than towards the old Soviet.
In fact, Denmark isn't actually socialistic as such. Politically we're very much in the middle of the spectrum. It's just that compared to US, all of Europe looks kinda socialistic.
Anyway, modern Europe is a completely different world from the old Soviet Union. No ghosts of Stalin and Marx here! So there's no reason for american blood pressure to shoot up. In fact, even the ACTUAL former soviet countries aren't haunted by the past or struggling with oppression. Nowadays they're modern, well-functioning countries. It makes me a bit sad that so many americans have no idea what the world is actually like over here, but are fed ridiculous propaganda and eating it raw. I'm glad you guys on here at least don't just automatically believe whatever some politician in election-mode is telling you about the world.
Okay, point by point rebuttal.... I'll do my best, I'm not exactly an expert, I'm just an average citizen. Anyway, here goes:
-The woman in the picture is not a school teacher called Mikkel Clair Nissen (Mikkel is a male name by the way). She's a Danish actress called Mille Dinesen.
-Yes, education, healthcare (everything except for dentistry funny enough) and student benefits are paid via taxes, this is correct.
-Yes, we pay very high taxes. On average about half of the income. The tax rate is progressive, so for the first amount you earn, you only pay 8%, and then the more you earn, the higher tax you pay. Wether this is a good idea can be discussed! You can see a proper explanation of the danish tax system here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark
Keep in mind, whether you call the amount you pay "tax" or "insurance" doesn't actually matter to the individual person, you're paying about the same amount either way. The difference is that in Denmark it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you have access to the same high quality healthcare. Poor people aren't screwed if they get sick.
-What they mean by these hidden duties and fees they mention I don't know. Yes, there's duties on extremely unhealthy things like tobacco and on polluting things like gasoline, but they are not hidden in any way. And the graphic forgets that this is a democracy. Danes elect their own government and we have elected, on our own with no force, to have duties on these things, so that people have to pay to ruin their lungs (thus costing significantly more than average in healthcare) and pollute the environment. On the same note, yes, cars and gasoline is very expensive in Denmark, and in Europe in general. However, gasprices in Denmark is more like $6.5/gallon than the $10/gallon the graphic states. Anyway, that is because over here we give a shit about our environment and our climate, so we do not want people to drive their giant american style car whenever they need to go to the shop 10 meters down the street. Americans on average use their cars way more than Europeans do, often for ridiculous things where they could easily have used a bicycle or their two damn feet. Over here, polluting the environment unnecessarily is going to cost you :-) The environment belongs to all of us, and you pay all of us for ruining it. Seems reasonable to me.
I don't know how car prices in Denmark compare to car prices in the US. I do know that the prices are ridiculously high in Denmark and I'm sure they are TOO high! The problem we are having is that because the cars are so expensive, people on average drive older cars than in the rest of the developed world, and older cars are generally less safe than new cars. This isn't good. I didn't say Denmark was the perfect country, we're far from!
-The graphic says we're taxed an average of 80% per earned dollar?????!!!! I have no idea where they got that number, must've pulled it out their ass. When you add up everything, the different types of taxes including sales tax and duties etc, it adds up to about 50% percent of peoples income paid as tax. This is about the same in the rest of Europe, if you include health insurance, education fees etc. Basically, where they call it insurance we just call it tax and so on. Same difference!
-When it comes to private debt, I am sure it is high in Denmark. I do not actually know enough to comment. However house loans are also cheap. I do not know enough about this topic to comment on it I'm afraid. But if you have any questions around this, I'll be happy to ask people who know more than me :-)
-Next, the graphic says that "Anyone who makes more than $80.000 anually pays 68% tax". This is a loaded way of phrasing it, since it sounds like the richest people pay 68% of everything they earn. This is not the case! They pay "top tax", which along with everything else probably adds up to around 68%, of everything they earn
above $80.000 anually. Of the first $80.000 they earn they pay exactly the same percentage as everyone else.
However, this "top tax" is always a hot topic for debate, since you can argue that it's not fair that the people with the highest incomes have to pay extra tax off the last part of it. There are perfectly valid arguments for a more flat tax system and I am not entirely sure where I stand on the topic I must admit.
However, despite "top tax", it is not correct that the highest income people leave Denmark and danish companies do not generally leave the countries.
-It is not correct that employment is low in Denmark. The 2014 numbers, supplied by your own american government, can be found here: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html As you can see, as of 2014, unemployment rates in Denmark were 5.2%, while unemployment rates in USA were 6.2%.
-The number for suicide rates given by this graphic are plain ridiculous. The american ones are acurate enough, but the numbers for Denmark are plain lies. In fact, Denmark has lower suicide rates than US and has had so for a long time. You can check out the numbers from the World Health Organization here: http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicideprevent/en/
-Wait, we're deeply deprived and severely narcissistic? Gee thanks! I'd love to see the data for that. Is it because we don't have the puritan history americans have? Haha. We're hardly deprived just because we don't see sex as something dirty that's unfortunately neccesary to produce offspring.
-The last part of the graphics made me angry! Antidepressants do not make people artificially happy and it is a very unfortunate misconception to spread around!
However, it may very well be that consumption of anti-depressants is high in Denmark. There are two factors to keep in mind here. We are in a part of the world that gets very little sunlight, while at the same time getting very little snow (reflects a lot of light) and a LOT of rain and cloud cover. Too little sun exposure is a big factor in prevalence of depression!
Another factor is that depression has been focussed on a lot in Denmark, so doctors are very quick to prescribe anti-depressants and the medicine is cheap and readily available to everybody, also the poorer parts of the population. Because people don't go around keeping their depressions to themselves, but seek treatment right away, more people get treated, thus more medicine gets prescribed.
Okay, I think I got to everything now. Let me know if there's any questions. My personal conclusion is that I'm happy to live in Denmark and feel very fortunate to live here. With my personal health history, since childhood,, I'd be screwed if I lived in the US I imagine. Anyway, we're not post-soviet communists here and we are not oppressed or otherwise suffering, so y'all don't have to worry :06:
Quote from: jonb on October 21, 2015, 04:37:59 PM
I can not help but notice what sudden interest is produced in the boys on this forum, by the introduction of one Danish lady. Ladyday your boyfriend must feel a bit left out- so I found this for him so he can feel its his christmas too.
https://youtu.be/6lzQxjGL9S0
Haha. It's just the hair. Natural blond hair has a funny effect on boys in parts of the world where it's not so common as here. Shame it doesn't work the same on more local boyfriends. Blondes don't hold the same news value here.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 21, 2015, 04:58:21 PM
Hi LadyDay!
Happy "Back to the Future Day"!
I was raised in the Southern Baptist religion, and slowly thought my way free of it. It was an interesting experience, and now I'm completely free from the fear of burning in hell for eternity. I'd much rather be nonexistent, as I was before my conception. I hope you have fun here - this is a really fun place to hang out.
:azn:
Happy B2F Day yourself mate!
It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who battled that ingrained fear of Hell for a long time. It's incredible how stuff like that can stick long after you've extracted yourself from the religion.
That was a great rebuttal to the propaganda. Actually, I've never seen that ad until it appeared here, and I actually had a picture of Denmark in my mind that was surprisingly close to your description. Mostly Americans compare ourselves to Europe (but I think by Europe they often mean the UK). But even more, when it comes to socialistic ideas, I hear comparisons to Canada.
I'm talking about my right wing friends who countered single payer healthcare arguments with, "It's so bad in Canada, all the Canadians have to come to the US for healthcare." Oh, I suppose it's happened, but I never heard any such claim from any Canadian I've ever met. And I lived 60 miles from the Canadian border for most of my life. I've spent so much time in Canada that on one occasion, a Canadian Customs and Immigration team advised me that if I stayed in Canada for another year they would be asking me to seriously consider Canadian citizenship.
But this is kind of a lead-in to your high tax comments. I knew you paid high taxes, which is probably the number one long term hot button political issue in the US. People gripe about high taxes, even those that are in such low tax brackets, they don't pay any taxes. It's like the socialism issue. Blood pressure rises in direct proportion to threats of higher taxes. But when I think about it, I ask myself, "What's bad about high taxes, as long as you get it back?" This is one of our problems in the US. Our political system is predisposed to the redistribution of taxes. In our case, much of the tax revenue ends up with the most wealthy, in various forms of political paybacks for legalized bribes given to our leaders.
For example, healthcare would be one way to redistribute taxes back to those who paid them. One argument against single payer was, "Medical care is too expensive. If the government provides it, it's going to cost each of us $2000 dollars a year extra in taxes." Well, now; Let's see: I would have to pay $2000 dollars a year to the government for health insurance taxes. Hmmm, but what do I pay now? Well, before I actually get any money back, I have to meet my deductibles, which back when I did this was $3000 a year. My employer provided insurance, but at the time, I had to contribute an additional $500 a month out of pocket. That's $6000 plus my $3000 deductible: $9000 when I pay it to private corporations or $2000 when I pay it in taxes. Which is the better deal?
Of course the person who came up with the propaganda was pulling figures out of his ass, just like in than anti-Denmark propaganda. But considering that this particular healthcare argument's facts were wrong, I could still pay a lot more in taxes and come out way ahead. In addition, there are so many loopholes and powers of decision over our health care given to private suppliers, so it's not that great, even if you take the financial arguments out of the equation, and just examine the quality of our care.
The point is not how high your taxes are, but how much benefit you get in return, but the knee jerk reaction here is to shut down all thought process when higher taxes are mentioned.
Denmark sounds like a very nice place.
I'm sorry, I could go on and on, but fortunately immediate demands prevent me from creating a wall of text.
Great rebuttal. I'd not seen that ad either; and I do not think of Scandinavia in those terms, but I do think of it in the terms you spoke of. I've been to Scandinavia a long time ago (Not Finland) and loved all of them. This was a month long camping trip that stretched from southern Denmark into the Swedish arctic circle, and then back down through Oslo. All of the relatives on my mother's side are from Sweden, and so my interest in Scandinavia has always been high. If had had to move from the US, I'd have selected Sweden to move to--relatives would have made the move fairly easy, I think. I have always regarded Scandinavia as a safe and sane place to live.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 22, 2015, 05:58:40 AM
Haha. It's just the hair. Natural blond hair has a funny effect on boys in parts of the world where it's not so common as here. Shame it doesn't work the same on more local boyfriends. Blondes don't hold the same news value here.
Tell me about it, when I was young, blond and working in the arts, I was always attracting the attention of the boys even the local ones. They would do almost anything to get my attention.
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll236/jonber/me-at-my-desk.gif)
Here they are setting fire to my chair at work.
Quote from: SGOS on October 22, 2015, 08:27:50 AM
But this is kind of a lead-in to your high tax comments. I knew you paid high taxes, which is probably the number one long term hot button political issue in the US. People gripe about high taxes, even those that are in such low tax brackets, they don't pay any taxes. It's like the socialism issue. Blood pressure rises in direct proportion to threats of higher taxes. But when I think about it, I ask myself, "What's bad about high taxes, as long as you get it back?" This is one of our problems in the US. Our political system is predisposed to the redistribution of taxes. In our case, much of the tax revenue ends up with the most wealthy, in various forms of political paybacks for legalized bribes given to our leaders.
For example, healthcare would be one way to redistribute taxes back to those who paid them. One argument against single payer was, "Medical care is too expensive. If the government provides it, it's going to cost each of us $2000 dollars a year extra in taxes." Well, now; Let's see: I would have to pay $2000 dollars a year to the government for health insurance taxes. Hmmm, but what do I pay now? Well, before I actually get any money back, I have to meet my deductibles, which back when I did this was $3000 a year. My employer provided insurance, but at the time, I had to contribute an additional $500 a month out of pocket. That's $6000 plus my $3000 deductible: $9000 when I pay it to private corporations or $2000 when I pay it in taxes. Which is the better deal?
Of course the person who came up with the propaganda was pulling figures out of his ass, just like in than anti-Denmark propaganda. But considering that this particular healthcare argument's facts were wrong, I could still pay a lot more in taxes and come out way ahead. In addition, there are so many loopholes and powers of decision over our health care given to private suppliers, so it's not that great, even if you take the financial arguments out of the equation, and just examine the quality of our care.
The point is not how high your taxes are, but how much benefit you get in return, but the knee jerk reaction here is to shut down all thought process when higher taxes are mentioned.
Denmark sounds like a very nice place.
It sounds like Americans often feel like their taxes are money out the window and that they don't get anything in return for it? In comparison I'm quite happy to pay my taxes, since, if anything, I get significantly more out of the system in return than what I pay through taxes! I get very expensive treatments at the hospital three times per week, included transport by taxi back and forth, on top of regular doctors appointments and a bunch of medication, all free of charge because I pay for it via taxes. So I get huge value for the money I pay, it's not money out the window.
You are very right that the important factor is that you get good value for the money you pay in. Then it doesn't matter for you as an individual if you pay the money to the state or to an insurance company. The advantage of paying things like education and healthcare via taxes is that it means everyone gets equal access to those things. Less fortunate people do not get lower quality healthcare and they get the same access to education as everyone, so they have a way of breaking out of poverty. I like that!
Denmark is a very nice place I think :-) I certainly enjoy living here. There's no such thing as a perfect country of course and we have things to gripe about here aswell. But we are very proud of and happy about our welfare-system. Though I have no idea if it could work on the massive scale of the US too. And obviously we can't wipe out the better part of the American population with heart-attacks by suddenly requiring them to pay half their income back to the state as tax! Haha. They need to slowly get used to the idea first, and they need to start getting value back for the money they pay in! No wonder they don't like tax if they don't get anything in return!
Now, if you ever come by here for a visit, let me know and I'll take you out and show you around :06:
The taxation thing is stupid because in the U.S. practically everything is taxed, and we don't realize it. We pay a tax on gasoline, a sales tax on everything we buy, luxury taxes and so forth. So for anyone to state another country pays exorbitant taxes probably isn't seeing the whole picture in their own country. Just in income tax alone you are paying- in my bracket- about a 30% tax. Add all the other attached taxes and its probably not far off the mark of Denmark.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2015, 08:48:15 AM
Great rebuttal. I'd not seen that ad either; and I do not think of Scandinavia in those terms, but I do think of it in the terms you spoke of. I've been to Scandinavia a long time ago (Not Finland) and loved all of them. This was a month long camping trip that stretched from southern Denmark into the Swedish arctic circle, and then back down through Oslo. All of the relatives on my mother's side are from Sweden, and so my interest in Scandinavia has always been high. If had had to move from the US, I'd have selected Sweden to move to--relatives would have made the move fairly easy, I think. I have always regarded Scandinavia as a safe and sane place to live.
Thankyou! :-)
I'm glad you have a more fair and realistic impression of Scandinavia and Denmark than what this ridiculous graphic provides. I'm glad you don't think of us as deprived narcissists!
The Arctic is amazing isn't it?!!! I've spend quite a few winter vacations north of the Arctic Circle in Norway. Some friends of ours have a little cabin up there. It's absolutely incredible! We'd be happy to have you here in Scandinavia! :-) The more the merrier.
Quote from: jonb on October 22, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
Tell me about it, when I was young, blond and working in the arts, I was always attracting the attention of the boys even the local ones. They would do almost anything to get my attention.
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll236/jonber/me-at-my-desk.gif)
Here they are setting fire to my chair at work.
LOL. Nobody has ever actually set me on fire to get my attention. Now I'm a little disappointed! Hahaha :lol:
Run. Do not walk from this misogynistic creep magnet that this place is
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 22, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Run. Do not walk from this misogynistic creep magnet that this place is
I can't help but notice that you are still here. What does that make you?
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 22, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Run. Do not walk from this misogynistic creep magnet that this place is
ah yes our lovely local "social justice warrior" spewing her baseless accusations of hatred already. Be careful if you get too close it might... just ran away and cry.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 22, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Run. Do not walk from this misogynistic creep magnet that this place is
I didn't run away. I just navigate it differently now.
Quote from: TomFoolery on October 22, 2015, 05:02:46 PM
I didn't run away. I just navigate it differently now.
So who are this misogynist creeps? with quotes please, not vague accusations.
*** Mod hat on.
This is an intro thread. Everybody, including me take it somewhere else.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 22, 2015, 06:08:54 AM
Happy B2F Day yourself mate!
It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who battled that ingrained fear of Hell for a long time. It's incredible how stuff like that can stick long after you've extracted yourself from the religion.
If I must fear the afterlife, I'd rather fear eternal oblivion than fear eternal torture in hell. Oblivion is much less scary. I'd rather not fear it (and I don't), so I can enjoy however much life I'll get. My life is a brief interruption of a very long period of oblivion, both before my existence and after it. So oblivion is my default state, and everyone who has never existed is still in that stat. Oblivion is the great equalizer.
Christians (and others) can never be absolutely certain that they've pleased their God sufficiently to avoid hell. Their fate is still in question. There's a constant "still, quiet voice" in their brains telling them that they may be doomed, no matter how much they've given to their favorite televangelist.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 22, 2015, 05:42:30 PM
If I must fear the afterlife, I'd rather fear eternal oblivion than fear eternal torture in hell. Oblivion is much less scary. I'd rather not fear it (and I don't), so I can enjoy however much life I'll get. My life is a brief interruption of a very long period of oblivion, both before my existence and after it. So oblivion is my default state, and everyone who has never existed is still in that stat. Oblivion is the great equalizer.
Christians (and others) can never be absolutely certain that they've pleased their God sufficiently to avoid hell. Their fate is still in question. There's a constant "still, quiet voice" in their brains telling them that they may be doomed, no matter how much they've given to their favorite televangelist.
Even taking about being in "a state of oblivion" after we die doesn't really make sense... "You" is what your brain does. When your brain does not exist anymore, there is no "you" that can be in a state of anything. It's a weird thought to get used to, the idea of non-existence. Especially when you were taught growing up that you have an eternal soul. But lately I've sort of gotten more used to that thought, and it's made me not fear death anymore. Now that it's sinking in that I won't experience being dead. I won't be sitting around in a dark place missing life. There won't be any "I".
But humanity will carry on as normal after me. That's a nice thought!
And nobody will experience eternal torment. That makes me so happy. That was one of the things that I struggled with back when I was a christian. I couldn't understand how a supposedly loving and omnipotent god could let anybody suffer eternal torment, it did not seem right or good to me.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 12:33:37 AM
And nobody will experience eternal torment. That makes me so happy. That was one of the things that I struggled with back when I was a christian. I couldn't understand how a supposedly loving and omnipotent god could let anybody suffer eternal torment, it did not seem right or good to me.
Even after I realized how intellectually silly the Bible was, and had mostly discarded the idea of eternal torment, on occasion, it would give me the creeps. That doesn't happen anymore since I have embraced the idea of letting go of unsupportable religious nonsense. And I can't think of a better description than "nonsense".
Hello LadyDay. Welcome to the forum.
Never having been a member of a church, I personally just don't get why anyone would want the christard heaven every vision of it fills me with horror. Maybe that view is inherited from my Danelaw ancestors.
I have posted this cartoon before here, but I do like it and it say something about the after life that many seek.
https://youtu.be/MV5w262XvCU
Quote from: jonb on October 23, 2015, 07:56:33 AM
Never having been a member of a church, I personally just don't get why anyone would want the christard heaven every vision of it fills me with horror.
Good question. When my grandmother first explained Heaven and Hell at the beginning of my indoctrination, Hell seemed terrifying to me. On the other hand, her description of Heaven, was not at all appealing to me either. When you're three years old, what's the big deal about sitting on benches of gold with angels? I mean really why would that be appealing? For me it wasn't that Heaven was so great, it was just the lesser of two evils. Of course other Christians describe Heaven as something else, and why not? That's the advantage of unsupported make believe. You get to make stuff up.
LadyDay, I'm curious about how religious Denmark is. What is the percentage of people who are Christian and what is the major denomination?
My grandfather was a first generation Swedish/American--he entered the US around 1900 by jumping ship (fishing boat) in Seattle and then rode the rails for a few years. Anyway, he was raised Lutheran but hated the church--any church. He was fond of saying that a local (I don't know where this was exactly, but he was raised in Petia--in the north of Sweden) Lutheran church was destroyed and that many bodies of women and babies were dug up in its basement. He was not fond of hypocrisy. That comment always stuck with me and caused me to question religion in general from a fairly young age. When I looked into for Sweden, I was surprised to discover how many were Lutheran.
I personally think Denmark is a very intersting country about religion. And also it could be a bit tricky to discuss it in American terms of secularism.
Denmark doesn't have a laicist state. The religion of state is specified and if I am not mistaken there is even some sort of a ministry of religious affairs. But it is probably one of the most secular countries on the planet. Among the actual few, I mean. Not the usual bullshit.
I'll bet on that it has a VERY low count on church attendence.
Quote from: SGOS on October 23, 2015, 07:00:24 AM
Even after I realized how intellectually silly the Bible was, and had mostly discarded the idea of eternal torment, on occasion, it would give me the creeps. That doesn't happen anymore since I have embraced the idea of letting go of unsupportable religious nonsense. And I can't think of a better description than "nonsense".
It also took me a while to get rid of the fear of Hell. The power of indoctrination I guess. Funny how you can realize that it's silly, yet still get anxious about it. What do you think made you get rid of it? Just spending enough time thinking about how ridiculous the concept was?
Quote from: SGOS on October 23, 2015, 08:30:11 AM
Good question. When my grandmother first explained Heaven and Hell at the beginning of my indoctrination, Hell seemed terrifying to me. On the other hand, her description of Heaven, was not at all appealing to me either. When you're three years old, what's the big deal about sitting on benches of gold with angels? I mean really why would that be appealing? For me it wasn't that Heaven was so great, it was just the lesser of two evils. Of course other Christians describe Heaven as something else, and why not? That's the advantage of unsupported make believe. You get to make stuff up.
I got a very different description of Heaven. Growing up I was always taught that was "a new heaven and a new earth", meaning that god would basically create an Earth all over again, but without the sin and suffering, without the bad stuff that this earth have. And then it would be eternal and we'd live forever on it. So that was appealing enough to me. But I always wondered why the Bible said that we'd be spending eternity in a choir, singing gods praises. Seemed strange to me.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 23, 2015, 11:10:01 AM
LadyDay, I'm curious about how religious Denmark is. What is the percentage of people who are Christian and what is the major denomination?
My grandfather was a first generation Swedish/American--he entered the US around 1900 by jumping ship (fishing boat) in Seattle and then rode the rails for a few years. Anyway, he was raised Lutheran but hated the church--any church. He was fond of saying that a local (I don't know where this was exactly, but he was raised in Petia--in the north of Sweden) Lutheran church was destroyed and that many bodies of women and babies were dug up in its basement. He was not fond of hypocrisy. That comment always stuck with me and caused me to question religion in general from a fairly young age. When I looked into for Sweden, I was surprised to discover how many were Lutheran.
There have been mass graves in the US associated with unofficial abortion clinics or contrariwise ... birthing centers ... that existed for girls who got pregnant, couldn't go home, and didn't want to enter prostitution .... which was pretty much all a girl could do before women had support outside the home, if she got pregnant outside of proper society or was otherwise abandoned by her family. This may have happened to my grandmother's oldest sister here in the US.
Many bodies of people were dug up in he basement of Benjamin Franklin's London residence ... presumably because he had a medical student lodging with him ... and dissection was illegal. Or do you want to believe that Benjamin Franklin was a serial killer perhaps? Not saying that your grandfather may have misinterpreted the evidence.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 23, 2015, 11:10:01 AM
LadyDay, I'm curious about how religious Denmark is. What is the percentage of people who are Christian and what is the major denomination?
My grandfather was a first generation Swedish/American--he entered the US around 1900 by jumping ship (fishing boat) in Seattle and then rode the rails for a few years. Anyway, he was raised Lutheran but hated the church--any church. He was fond of saying that a local (I don't know where this was exactly, but he was raised in Petia--in the north of Sweden) Lutheran church was destroyed and that many bodies of women and babies were dug up in its basement. He was not fond of hypocrisy. That comment always stuck with me and caused me to question religion in general from a fairly young age. When I looked into for Sweden, I was surprised to discover how many were Lutheran.
It's a question that doesn't have a simple answer :-) It's very similar to Sweden. On one hand, Denmark is among the least religious countries on the planet. Very few people have religion as part of their day to day life. Very few people pray or read the Bible or attend a church for anything other than weddings and funerals. But on the other hand Denmark has an official state church (protestantic lutheran christian) and 78% of the danish population are official members of the state church. A majority of the population, while not having religion as part of their everyday lives, would not necessarily describe themselves as atheists either. Most danes have a relaxed believe along the lines of "there's probably some sort of god and some sort of heaven after we die, but nobody goes to hell, that's ridiculous". More and more people are signing out of the state church though. In 2009 membership was 85.5%. The 78% is the number as of January 2015. This, I believe, means more and more Danes call themselves "atheists", rather than having this casual religious belief. Personally I was raised in another, small lutheran christian community, not just the state church. This community consists of more serious, hardcore, fundamentalist christians, so I was indoctrinated with way intense religion that was part of the everyday life (I also went to a religious private school and such). There are several of these small, hardcore religious communities in the country, but they represent a very small part of the population.
By the way, the fact that Denmark has an official state church does not really mean anything. Religion never plays any part in politics or official state business, because so few people, also among politicians, are significantly religious. If a party tried to include religion in politics, there'd be a huge outcry and protest, and that party would never get re-elected!
So yeah, religiosity in Denmark is way lower than in the USA and people who have religion as part of their daily life are rare and generally considered weird. And being an atheist is not controversial or unusual, like it's my impression it is in the US.
So we're lucky over here! However it does have one disadvantage... It's basically impossible to find other people over here who have left serious, fundamentalist religion and thereby know what I've been through. That's so incredibly rare in this part of the world! Hence why I'm using, and very grateful for, American, atheist internet-forums. You lot understand my past and get the struggle and pain. Means a lot to me! So *hugs all around*
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 23, 2015, 11:33:27 AM
I personally think Denmark is a very intersting country about religion. And also it could be a bit tricky to discuss it in American terms of secularism.
Denmark doesn't have a laicist state. The religion of state is specified and if I am not mistaken there is even some sort of a ministry of religious affairs. But it is probably one of the most secular countries on the planet. Among the actual few, I mean. Not the usual bullshit.
I'll bet on that it has a VERY low count on church attendence.
You've got it completely right! Funny enough, while Denmark is way less religious than USA, we do not have the official church, state separation that you guys have. And we do have a church ministry/ministry of church affairs. However, as described above, religion doesn't actually play much part in politics in Denmark. If anything, I imagine it plays a bigger part in American politics.
You are very right that church attendance is VERY low. By far most people only attend church for weddings and funerals. The churches are also reasonably full for the christmas service and the majority of the population get their children baptised, so they become members of the church and thereby can get married in the church when the time comes. Otherwise, on normal Sundays, churches are close to empty!
I'm impressed you know so much about Denmark when it comes to religion! :-) I've come across loads of Americans who don't actually have any idea where or what Denmark is! I've, on several occasions, gotten comments along the lines of "Denmark? That's in Minnesota right?" Once even right after we'd just talked about the time-difference! *face-palm* But Denmark IS a teeny, tiny country, so I guess it's understandable :-)
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 12:42:34 PMIf a party tried to include religion in politics, there'd be a huge outcry and protest, and that party would never get re-elected!
So yeah, religiosity in Denmark is way lower than in the USA and people who have religion as part of their daily life are rare and generally considered weird. And being an atheist is not controversial or unusual, like it's my impression it is in the US.
That sounds so great, almost the exact opposite of around here (SE USA). I'm tempted to move there or at least visit. How's the weather and food? I assume all new arrivals get a handful of legos and a bicycle.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 23, 2015, 01:00:49 PM
That sounds so great, almost the exact opposite of around here (SE USA). I'm tempted to move there or at least visit. How's the weather and food? I assume all new arrivals get a handful of legos and a bicycle.
You're very welcome! I'll take you out for drinks and show you around :-)
The food is good. It's not italian, but it's solid comfort food, and we have plenty of excellent italian restaurants for variation. The weather SUCKS! We get a lot of rain, not very many proper, warm summer days and not very much snow (we get snow, but it's not exactly like Norway or Sweden). So don't come here for the weather! Haha. But there's loads of other good reasons to visit Denmark!
You can buy Lego at the airport :grin:
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 12:58:09 PM
You've got it completely right! Funny enough, while Denmark is way less religious than USA, we do not have the official church, state separation that you guys have. And we do have a church ministry/ministry of church affairs. However, as described above, religion doesn't actually play much part in politics in Denmark. If anything, I imagine it plays a bigger part in American politics.
You are very right that church attendance is VERY low. By far most people only attend church for weddings and funerals. The churches are also reasonably full for the christmas service and the majority of the population get their children baptised, so they become members of the church and thereby can get married in the church when the time comes. Otherwise, on normal Sundays, churches are close to empty!
I'm impressed you know so much about Denmark when it comes to religion! :-) I've come across loads of Americans who don't actually have any idea where or what Denmark is! I've, on several occasions, gotten comments along the lines of "Denmark? That's in Minnesota right?" Once even right after we'd just talked about the time-difference! *face-palm* But Denmark IS a teeny, tiny country, so I guess it's understandable :-)
Once upon a time, I used to be a research assistant (art history, 10 years) in a univ in the country I live in. (Turkey) I'm not an American. I used Denmark as an example to explain the difference between laicism and secularism to the students several times. And how that just because there is laicism in a country that wouldn't automatically result in secularism as the general propaganda goes. :lol:
As I live in a muslim country, it has always been a hot topic.
Denmark is known at least in my community in Turkey. And in a good way.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 01:54:33 PMThe weather SUCKS! We get a lot of rain, not very many proper, warm summer days and not very much snow (we get snow, but it's not exactly like Norway or Sweden).
Even that sounds better. In North Carolina, we get long, humid, buggy summers, a good chance of getting a hurricane during the fall, and winters that range from extremely mild to moderate - even snow storms on occasion. A less erratic and malevolent climate would be a huge improvement.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 23, 2015, 02:05:10 PM
Once upon a time, I used to be a research assistant (art history, 10 years) in a univ in the country I live in. (Turkey) I'm not an American. I used Denmark as an example to explain the difference between laicism and secularism to the students several times. And how that just because there is laicism in a country that wouldn't automatically result in secularism as the general propaganda goes. :lol:
As I live in a muslim country, it has always been a hot topic.
Denmark is known at least in my community in Turkey. And in a good way.
Aaaaaah. The profiles do not say which country people live in, so I assumed USA. Sorry about that.
Where in Turkey do you live? Istanbul is one of my very favourite places on earth! :-)
I'm pleased to hear my country has a good reputation out in the big world :-D
I'd love to hear more about religion in Turkey! It's my impression that Istanbul, Ankara and the western half of Turkey is not super religious, more like Denmark if anything, but that the eastern parts of the country are quite religious? Were you raised religious? Is it controversial to be an atheist in Turkey? Like it is in US for example. Most people here are from countries that are mainly christian, so I'm curious how being in a mainly muslim country differs, if at all :-)
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 23, 2015, 02:27:27 PM
Even that sounds better. In North Carolina, we get long, humid, buggy summers, a good chance of getting a hurricane during the fall, and winters that range from extremely mild to moderate - even snow storms on occasion. A less erratic and malevolent climate would be a huge improvement.
Bring a raincoat and rubber boots and you'll love it here! :D
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 02:33:49 PM
Aaaaaah. The profiles do not say which country people live in, so I assumed USA. Sorry about that.
Where in Turkey do you live? Istanbul is one of my very favourite places on earth! :-)
I'm pleased to hear my country has a good reputation out in the big world :-D
I'd love to hear more about religion in Turkey! It's my impression that Istanbul, Ankara and the western half of Turkey is not super religious, more like Denmark if anything, but that the eastern parts of the country are quite religious? Were you raised religious? Is it controversial to be an atheist in Turkey? Like it is in US for example. Most people here are from countries that are mainly christian, so I'm curious how being in a mainly muslim country differs, if at all :-)
I have grown up in Ä°stanbul, but now I live in Ä°zmir. It's a city of 4 million and a 100 K in the Western Anatolia, Aegean shores. It's a good place to live. Close to international vacation places.
Turkey is having the worst time of the modern republic. After the religious party came to the power (2003), there is a certain decline. No, I don't think anywhere here is like continental Europe, let alone Denmark. But there are places you can call relatively secular. But I refuse to define the country as a secular one. Bullshit.
It's controversial being a nonbeliever here. I am openly a nonbeliever and haven't experienced any bad reactions yet. It's a republic, so there are laws. State is supposedly laicist...Pfffft my ass. It's pretty a double standard islamic 'laicism'. But there is always the worst, disgusting propaganda against nonbelievers and seculars. Hate speech in certain tv channels. So it is not a secular country, it is just secular compared to other muslim countries I guess. Pork is legal for example. But you can' t buy it around everywhere and just in specific places in package. Alcohol is full throttle though. Secular muslims drink worse or better -depends on how you look at it- than Irish. Adultry is not a crime. I don't know what happened with prostitution legally, since brothels pretty much exists everywhere and are under state control. Drinking age is 18. You can buy alcohol everywhere, but we hear that certain regions deep in Anatolia is not that comfortable and some even closed their few bars.
The religious party is doing anything in their hands to change anything secular in the country. Change the constitution, system (they want American system) so they can dictate properly. Half the country is relatively secular -not to my standards- half is religious, minority is secular. But nationalism is an equally powerful threat. We managed to make the Kurdish party enter the parliament for the first time and they created a shit storm that resulted in an unbelievable death toll. So life sucks here nowadays, bombs are going off, people are dying. 102 peıople died in a bombing just a few weeks ago. Reported as ISIL. There is always something bad goin on. I am not following it any more for my health. I can't sleep and get depressivie.
Well, that's the general picture I guess. Yes, it is a religious country.
Quote from: LadyDay on October 23, 2015, 11:53:40 AM
It also took me a while to get rid of the fear of Hell. The power of indoctrination I guess. Funny how you can realize that it's silly, yet still get anxious about it. What do you think made you get rid of it? Just spending enough time thinking about how ridiculous the concept was?
I went for a long time as an atheist without admitting it. I could muster the courage to call myself agnostic, but not admit I was an atheist. My fear of Hell had been dwindling over the years just as my belief had been dwindling, but somehow (I can't really explain it) just admitting the truth about my atheism seemed to wash away all remaining fear. It might have disappeared without that admission too. But in my mind it seems like cause and effect, because the two things came together. It might be something I'll never understand. Early in my agnosticism, I remember dealing with a lot questions about my belief, and I knew I could never know for sure whatever truth religion claimed to have. I felt like I dumped over a large garbage can of things ranging from idiotic nonsense like accepting the mythical flood to things that could not be answered, but for a long time there were a lot of maggots still clinging to the insides of the can. Fear of Hell was one of those things. I can only explain it as the power of indoctrination, which in my case, seemed to run deeper than a lot of others here.
Quote from: Baruch on October 23, 2015, 12:27:40 PM
There have been mass graves in the US associated with unofficial abortion clinics or contrariwise ... birthing centers ... that existed for girls who got pregnant, couldn't go home, and didn't want to enter prostitution .... which was pretty much all a girl could do before women had support outside the home, if she got pregnant outside of proper society or was otherwise abandoned by her family. This may have happened to my grandmother's oldest sister here in the US.
Many bodies of people were dug up in he basement of Benjamin Franklin's London residence ... presumably because he had a medical student lodging with him ... and dissection was illegal. Or do you want to believe that Benjamin Franklin was a serial killer perhaps? Not saying that your grandfather may have misinterpreted the evidence.
Come on Baruch, what does this have to do with a story my grandfather passed on to me. I know all that stuff you brought up. My point was that my grandfather, with his story, started my interest in religion at a fairly young age--that was the only point. Oh, and that he was an ex-Lutheran.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 23, 2015, 03:27:40 PM
I have grown up in Ä°stanbul, but now I live in Ä°zmir. It's a city of 4 million and a 100 K in the Western Anatolia, Aegean shores. It's a good place to live. Close to international vacation places.
Turkey is having the worst time of the modern republic. After the religious party came to the power (2003), there is a certain decline. No, I don't think anywhere here is like continental Europe, let alone Denmark. But there are places you can call relatively secular. But I refuse to define the country as a secular one. Bullshit.
It's controversial being a nonbeliever here. I am openly a nonbeliever and haven't experienced any bad reactions yet. It's a republic, so there are laws. State is supposedly laicist...Pfffft my ass. It's pretty a double standard islamic 'laicism'. But there is always the worst, disgusting propaganda against nonbelievers and seculars. Hate speech in certain tv channels. So it is not a secular country, it is just secular compared to other muslim countries I guess. Pork is legal for example. But you can' t buy it around everywhere and just in specific places in package. Alcohol is full throttle though. Secular muslims drink worse or better -depends on how you look at it- than Irish. Adultry is not a crime. I don't know what happened with prostitution legally, since brothels pretty much exists everywhere and are under state control. Drinking age is 18. You can buy alcohol everywhere, but we hear that certain regions deep in Anatolia is not that comfortable and some even closed their few bars.
The religious party is doing anything in their hands to change anything secular in the country. Change the constitution, system (they want American system) so they can dictate properly. Half the country is relatively secular -not to my standards- half is religious, minority is secular. But nationalism is an equally powerful threat. We managed to make the Kurdish party enter the parliament for the first time and they created a shit storm that resulted in an unbelievable death toll. So life sucks here nowadays, bombs are going off, people are dying. 102 peıople died in a bombing just a few weeks ago. Reported as ISIL. There is always something bad goin on. I am not following it any more for my health. I can't sleep and get depressivie.
Well, that's the general picture I guess. Yes, it is a religious country.
Thanks for the quick course on religion in Turkey! :geek:
Turkey has a special place in my heart, mainly because my closest friend is from Ankara (she's lived here in Denmark for some years now though) and because Istanbul is probably the most incredible place I've ever visited. It must be amazing to live in Izmir! I'm imagining gorgeous beach, amazing weather and (yummy!) Turkish food!
Your description of religion in western Turkey matches what my impression was. I was surprised hearing the imams singing from the mosques five times per day (that was a cool experience! Except that tone-deaf imam from the mosque right outside our hotel at sunrise)But the atmosphere, with lightly dressed people hopping from bar to bar and such, seemed a lot like any large european city to me (which, of course, it partly is). And it was my impression that the occasional woman wearing niqab was arab tourist, not turkish.
I'm so sorry to hear there's a lot of unrest and people bombing each other at the moment. I didn't quite understand, is it the kurdish people being bombed or doing the bombing? I'm happy to hear the kurdish party has been elected into the parliament. It's been hard to be kurdish for a long time.
I'm sorry it makes you sad and depressive. I hope it gets better soon. So you can enjoy being in a great holiday destination, rather than worrying about explosives.
Have you ever visited Denmark/Scandinavia?
Quote from: SGOS on October 23, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
I went for a long time as an atheist without admitting it. I could muster the courage to call myself agnostic, but not admit I was an atheist. My fear of Hell had been dwindling over the years just as my belief had been dwindling, but somehow (I can't really explain it) just admitting the truth about my atheism seemed to wash away all remaining fear. It might have disappeared without that admission too. But in my mind it seems like cause and effect, because the two things came together. It might be something I'll never understand. Early in my agnosticism, I remember dealing with a lot questions about my belief, and I knew I could never know for sure whatever truth religion claimed to have. I felt like I dumped over a large garbage can of things ranging from idiotic nonsense like accepting the mythical flood to things that could not be answered, but for a long time there were a lot of maggots still clinging to the insides of the can. Fear of Hell was one of those things. I can only explain it as the power of indoctrination, which in my case, seemed to run deeper than a lot of others here.
Haha. I also went through that stage of calling myself agnostic, because I was to scared of calling myself atheist. I think it's a common phase. My biggest fear was of what my family would say if I used the word atheist. I knew they'd be sad and worried and afraid I didn't wan't to be part of the family anymore. I love my family so much and obviously didn't wan't to cause them any pain. I figured the word agnostic would be a little easier for them to deal with.
How did your family react to your journey away from religion?
Quote from: LadyDay on October 24, 2015, 12:19:04 PM
Haha. I also went through that stage of calling myself agnostic, because I was to scared of calling myself atheist. I think it's a common phase. My biggest fear was of what my family would say if I used the word atheist. I knew they'd be sad and worried and afraid I didn't wan't to be part of the family anymore. I love my family so much and obviously didn't wan't to cause them any pain. I figured the word agnostic would be a little easier for them to deal with.
How did your family react to your journey away from religion?
If you are raised as a Christian, there's a good chance you're knowledge of atheism is going to be one sided. Consequently, you learn to attach a lot of incorrect assumptions and add a lot of negative baggage to it. I lived 2000 miles away from my family after I turned 17. That's when I began my quest for truth on my own. I never even used the word agnostic around my parents. They probably thought of me as "not too religious," but that once I grew up a bit, I would come back to the fold and start going to Church again. By the time I realized I was an atheist, my parents and grandparents were all dead. All that remains now is my sister, who switched from Lutheranism to the Catholic Church, but she has no problems with my atheism. Nor does her husband who is also a Catholic. They are both respectful of my lack of belief.