At the UN, the President declared that the US would be willing to work with Russia and Iran to solve the Syrian crisis.
Brilliant or Stupid?
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 28, 2015, 12:06:22 PM
Brilliant or Stupid?
Oh come on... as anyone who has ever studied history knows, you can't answer that question until it's over. :)
Yes, but it's fun to see the lefties and the righties going at each other's throat.
Its a board game. The superpower that wipes out ISIS gets candy.
Quote from: stromboli on September 28, 2015, 12:20:22 PM
Its a board game. The superpower that wipes out ISIS gets candy.
You mean
oil. What's funny is that Saudi Arabia has deliberately brought the price of oil from near $150 to the present $40 in its attempt to ruin the economies of both Russia and Iran. Here comes Obama, the US the staunchest ally of S.A, wanting to side with these two countries.
Ok, brilliant or stupid?
What says you...
The USA does not want to fight ISIS really. That is why Putin is getting into the fray.
What the US has done so far was a token bombing just to be seen doing something, but no visible impact.
ISIS is closer to Russia, and it is a clear and present danger.
Removing Assad is not a good idea. Putting ISIS in place will be much worse. All the Christians, Alavites and assorted minorities would be exterminated quickly.
This is also a war for supremacy between Sunni and Shia. That is why Iran is "helping".
Quote from: pr126 on September 28, 2015, 12:43:47 PM
The USA does not want to fight ISIS really. That is why Putin is getting into the fray.
What the US has done so far was a token bombing just to be seen doing something, but no visible impact.
To make an impact, the US would have to put boots on the ground. Right now, it's bomb a target, kill as many ISIS members. But then 2 or 3 days, ISIS goes back to regain said target. No boots on the ground, no progress. Problem with boots on the ground: (1) Obama took them out. Reversing would be an admission of being wrong - even though the withdrawal of US troops in Iraq was negotiated under Bush. Obama is still responsible for that decision as he could have reversed that. He didn't, and that was entirely consistent with his position in the election campaign of 2008 and his objection to the Iraqi war in 2003. (2) Americans are war weary. There is no consensus no appetite to go into another war, especially after the fiasco in Iraq.
QuoteISIS is closer to Russia, and it is a clear and present danger.
Removing Assad is not a good idea. Putting ISIS in place will be much worse. All the Christians, Alavites and assorted minorities would be exterminated quickly.
That's the dilemma: Assad is bad, but who could replace him would most likely be worse.
QuoteThis is also a war for supremacy between Sunni and Shia. That is why Iran is "helping".
Why it puts the US in a quandary. The Saudis (US ally) are fighting the Shiites by funding ISIS (US enemy) in Syria/Iraq.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 28, 2015, 12:09:02 PM
Oh come on... as anyone who has ever studied history knows, you can't answer that question until it's over. :)
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 28, 2015, 12:18:24 PM
Yes, but it's fun to see the lefties and the righties going at each other's throat.
I haven't been able to make up my mind on this one. I don't want Iran to have a bomb, but I think that is the way this is heading. At one time, I would have thought greater minds than mine know what they are doing, but I don't jump to that conclusion anymore.
Quote from: SGOS on September 28, 2015, 03:11:22 PM
I haven't been able to make up my mind on this one. I don't want Iran to have a bomb, but I think that is the way this is heading. At one time, I would have thought greater minds than mine know what they are doing, but I don't jump to that conclusion anymore.
One part of me wants Iran to get the bomb - it would make every Saudi shit in his pants. OTOH, Iran might give it any terrorist group and then all hell would break loose...
Quote from: SGOS on September 28, 2015, 03:11:22 PM
I haven't been able to make up my mind on this one. I don't want Iran to have a bomb, but I think that is the way this is heading. At one time, I would have thought greater minds than mine know what they are doing, but I don't jump to that conclusion anymore.
Good to be skeptical. Once upon a time I trusted the Foreign Policy experts. Are you comfortable with Pakistan having nukes? Iran if anything would be more responsible than Pakistan.
Answering the original question, Obama may not be brilliant, but working with Russia and Iran on the Syrian question, is a good idea anyway.
Putin is playing the cooperation card to get something, to be sure; like dropping sanctions. But if there was ever a snake he is it. And I don't give Obama high marks on international issues. I'd be checking for my wallet after spending an hour with Putin.
It takes another tyrant to appreciate a tyrant ... King Obama qualifies ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on September 28, 2015, 07:09:57 PM
It takes another tyrant to appreciate a tyrant ... King Obama qualifies ;-(
Some here would disagree, but I won't. Obama is a snake in his own way.
Most politicians are two headed snakes, they can bite you from either end ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 28, 2015, 06:59:59 PM
Are you comfortable with Pakistan having nukes?
No, I'm not.
Syrian crisis? What crisis?
It is normal for Muslims to be in a permanent state of war.
Islam demands it. See here:
Quran 2:216
Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.
Quran 9:111
Surely Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their belongings and in return has promised that they shall have Paradise.106 They fight in the Way of Allah, and slay and are slain.
Quran 8:60
And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged
Have been doing it since 622 CE.
SGOS - One of the primary reasons for keeping Iran from getting nukes, is that if they do, the Saudis will demand them from us (we are their infidel slaves). And we don't want that at all. Even the Gulf princelings will want one.
pr126 - Americans agree, a permanent state of war has been necessary for the US since 1940. We even make war against nouns like poverty, drugs and terrorism. At least we leave the adjectives at peace ;-)
Quote from: stromboli on September 28, 2015, 07:05:50 PM
Putin is playing the cooperation card to get something, to be sure; like dropping sanctions. But if there was ever a snake he is it. And I don't give Obama high marks on international issues. I'd be checking for my wallet after spending an hour with Putin.
Putin is playing the card - let's restore Russia to its former glory days- it's their own version of American exceptionalism. He needs that as a distraction as his country is in recession with high unemployment numbers. This is how he is consolidating his power with the generals and the xenophobic element of the Russian population. Notwithstanding that Russia is selling large catch of weapons to Syria, it is also modernizing its strategy naval base at Tartus to accommodate heavy warships, the only port available to Russia on the Mediterranean Sea.
The Russians aren't stupid. Respect them or not at your peril. Obama vs Putin is Chicago Jewish Mafia (Pritzger) against KGB ... leaders are figureheads. It takes a real man to run Russia, America not so much.
Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2015, 06:43:11 AM
It takes a real man to run Russia, ...
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/18135_Putin-Horse-Small_050312012509_591w1.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/18135_Putin-Horse-Small_050312012509_591w1.jpg.html)
Obama calls for “rejection by non-Muslims of the ignorance that equates Islam with terrorâ€
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42H4uJkkymM
But what about the Muslims who equate Islam with terror?
Re: the OP: it's neither. It's just realistic. Which is more intelligent than one generally expects of a politician, at least.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 29, 2015, 07:00:37 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/vJ3uu11.jpg)
I can list off more lovable russians then that soak puppet.
(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/d7b7730f-2a1e-49a2-8bc9-0a47a04d13fb/4ed1a350-5dcf-4609-8499-d4727d46eb8c.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPOYfMwWIAElrcR.jpg)
(https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/0/0f/Meet_the_Heavy_SFM.png/550px-Meet_the_Heavy_SFM.png?t=20120814063836)
Working with the global community to try to solve an issue?
Sounds terrible, probably impeachable.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 28, 2015, 12:06:22 PM
At the UN, the President declared that the US would be willing to work with Russia and Iran to solve the Syrian crisis.
Brilliant or Stupid?
russia and america cant be on the same side if that were the case then we would have world peace and that should never happen
Quote from: redpaint417 on September 30, 2015, 10:35:41 AM
russia and america cant be on the same side if that were the case then we would have world peace and that should never happen
I don't think it's a conspiracy to keep war alive. The US and Russia have different agendas, so they will inevitably clash. Though they can work together on certain issues, I'm not sure they can do it on the Syrian crisis. The situation is too complex, and both countries are at odds - the Saudis, the US ally in this conflict, want Assad out, a no go for Putin.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 30, 2015, 10:56:06 AM
I don't think it's a conspiracy to keep war alive. The US and Russia have different agendas, so they will inevitably clash. Though they can work together on certain issues, I'm not sure they can do it on the Syrian crisis. The situation is too complex, and both countries are at odds - the Saudis, the US ally in this conflict, want Assad out, a no go for Putin.
I don't think the Russians care about Assad
per se; he's just their man and they're satisfied that he'll remain their man.
If a suitable substitute could be found that could be Russia's man without being the problem that Assad is for the region, I'm sure Putin could be coaxed into going along -- he might even go as far as publicly giving Assad the push. It'd let him spin himself as being "coöperative internationally" without actually giving anything up.
Whether or not there actually
is an acceptable substitute who could be positioned to take over, I don't know.
Quote from: trdsf on September 30, 2015, 01:26:07 PM
Whether or not there actually is an acceptable substitute who could be positioned to take over, I don't know.
The million dollar question. Assad is from the Alawites, a tribe that is a small minority within Syria (12%). If he goes, the tribe itself could be wiped out for their unconditional support during years of atrocities. So no one in that tribe is going to betray the very person that represents their own survival.
This is why the policy of "kill your neighbors" is a "paint yourself into a corner" policy ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on September 30, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
This is why the policy of "kill your neighbors" is a "paint yourself into a corner" policy ;-(
The US painted itself in a corner. First it supported Hussein against Iran, then removed him to put the Shiites in charge, forgetting they are cousins of Iranians. So now, the US are on the same side as Iran fighting ISIS, which is supported by Saudi Arabia, a US ally. So when Putin invited Obama to join him in fighting ISIS by supporting Assad, who is supported by Iran, Putin must have had a Cheshire smile on his face.
Only America could screw up that big! USA #1! USA #1! Thanks Harvard and Yale for all the great leaders you give us ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on October 01, 2015, 07:22:51 AM
Only America could screw up that big! USA #1! USA #1! Thanks Harvard and Yale for all the great leaders you give us ;-(
Harvard and Yale are just the tip of the iceberg. When you have 42% of Americans believing in creationism, the hallmark of ignorance, there's something wrong much bigger than these two institutions.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 01, 2015, 09:17:12 AM
Harvard and Yale are just the tip of the iceberg. When you have 42% of Americans believing in creationism, the hallmark of ignorance, there's something wrong much bigger than these two institutions.
The first time I heard that figure, I was reading it in a newspaper. I knew there were a few creationists around, but I was dumbfounded, and was certain the article had misprinted, or was biased somehow, I brought it up to one of my more intelligent friends. He didn't say he had seen the data before (not that I recall now), but he wasn't at all surprised. I felt like I wanted to scream. We are truly fucked. Mankind's future looks dim. I don't know if the species will survive or not, but so what? We will still be doing the same stupid stuff, killing each other and destroying our planet, and doing things like denying that hydrogen sulfide gas is a bad thing to be breathing, or whatever fucked up thing we managed to create at that time in the future.
The heat is rising.
QuoteDefense Secretary Ashton Carter said Wednesday that the Russian airstrikes in Syria appear to have targeted areas that do not include ISIS fighters, a development which Secretary of State John Kerry said would cause "grave concern" for the United States.
Kerry told the United Nations Security Council that the U.S. would not object to Russians hitting ISIS or al-Qaida targets but airstrikes just to strengthen the hand of Syrian President Bashar Assad would be worrisome.
"It does appear they were in in areas where there probably were not ISIL forces," Carter said of the Russian airstrikes, using an alternative acronym for ISIS. "The result of this kind of action will inevitably simply be to inflame the civil war in Syria."
Carter said he couldn't confirm reports that the Russian strikes may have hit civilians, but said, "if it occurred, it's yet another reason why this kind of Russian action can and will backfire very badly on Russia."
Carter's comments triggered a dismissive response from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who told reporters flatly, "Don't listen to the Pentagon about the Russian strikes" and referred them to the Russian defense ministry website.
The top national security officials spoke as Russia launched its first airstrikes in Syria targeting what it said were ISIS positions. On Wednesday, some U.S.-backed rebel groups claimed they were hit by Russian airstrikes but those claims could not be confirmed.
A key unanswered question, however, is what the U.S. will do if the Russian airstrikes target moderate Syrian rebel groups working with the coalition in the fight against the ISIS. Asked directly if the coalition would protect the U.S.-trained or aligned groups, Carter did not answer.
Instead, Carter said the strikes highlight a contradiction in Russia's approach. He said the Russians should not be supporting the Assad government, and their military moves are "doomed to fail."
http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2015/10/01/us-warns-russia-against-striking-non-isis-targets-in-syria-1443655644
Once you lie, you can't stop lying. The US presence in the Middle East is based on pathological lying ... they can't stop, or else admit who was on the grassy knoll. ISIS won't stop, until its supporters, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, have been flattened by Russian forces. If the common ally of Turkey and Saudi Arabia wants to do something about it, then they will be flattened too. You can guess which common ally I mean, and maybe I mean both.
Russia has just bombed a rebel faction trained by the CIA; Russia says they bombed ISIS. The war of words has begun.
Probably no difference. I suspect the CIA has a time machine, and helped install Lenin ;-) See, the inner core of any national security apparatus has to be maximally criminal and insane by its job description. Once the Praetorian Guard takes over, it is Caligula all the way down.
Yes but it is our Caligula. Russian Caligula is a different monster, worse than ours...:lol:
Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 28, 2015, 12:06:22 PM
At the UN, the President declared that the US would be willing to work with Russia and Iran to solve the Syrian crisis.
Brilliant or Stupid?
Backed into a corner, cannot say no. He doesn't want to do it but Putin left him no choice.
Putin is going to stomp out ISIS. That's going to make the US look foolish in the sense of "look who gets things done." That will move the Mid-East farther from the US and closer to Russia, the exact opposite of the purpose of the whole War On Terror.
The US gave tanks to Iraq. The Iraqi army retreated, leaving the keys in the ignition of the tanks, and now they are ISIS tanks. If the Russian tanks successfully blast the ISIS tanks, it will show that Russian armor can blast US armor. That will be a major black eye to the US military. This goes even more so for the jets both sides have been developing, with the US blowing the whole development budget on the F-22 and the F-35. Russia will be embedding with Syrian troops. The US allegedly wants to defeat both Syria and ISIS. If the US hits Syrian troops and kills Russian embeds, that will be bad news and grounds for retaliation. If their practicality in just improving existing models instead of coming up with junk such as the F-35 shows actual results, that will be another black eye for the US military.
Remember, the petro-dollar is backed by the US military. Without it, one of the few major supports for the US dollar disappears.
So the US has two choices - directly confront Russia and engage in WWIII, or work with Russia. Since WWIII is stupid, then obviously the only other choice is "brilliant" since there are only two choices.
On that note, I will be sure to never play a chess match against a Russian...
Quote from: Shiranu on October 03, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
On that note, I will be sure to never play a chess match against a Russian...
Bobby Fischer kicked the Russians asses at chess. He was my hero. But later, he turns out to be wanted by the FBI or the CIA for being a racist nutjob and anti-Semite. I'm sure he'd have some thoughts about ISIS that he would like to share.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 03, 2015, 09:26:16 PM
On that note, I will be sure to never play a chess match against a Russian...
Yeah. The US is playing poker, hoping to bluff and get another queen it its hand, not noticing that the Russian rook is about to take the US queen.
I'm not comfortable with more countries having nukes, because if they are used all life on earth is destroyed, including my loved ones, is that being selfish, yes!
Don't worry, biological weapons will kill many without damaging property values. Your mortgage company that holds the note on your house should be fine either way ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on October 04, 2015, 08:38:21 PM
Don't worry, biological weapons will kill many without damaging property values. Your mortgage company that holds the note on your house should be fine either way ;-(
If you watch action films, the fun is in seeing whole building being destroyed like Lego toys. That's why biological weapons are illegal, and bazookas aren't.
Things are heating up:
Russia says Turkish airspace violation 'a mistake' (http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/05/middleeast/syria-russia-airstrikes/index.html)
Putin flexing his muscles:
4 Russian warships launch 26 missiles against ISIS from Caspian Sea (https://www.rt.com/news/317864-russian-warships-missiles-launch/)
Go Navy ... doesn't matter which navy ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on October 07, 2015, 11:26:57 PM
Go Navy ... doesn't matter which navy ;-)
Pentagon claims Russian missiles missed the targets. On with the propaganda war.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 09, 2015, 09:21:33 AM
Pentagon claims Russian missiles missed the targets. On with the propaganda war.
It's like were living back in the 1940s. I keep think the internet will make people a little more savvy. At least more skeptical. On the other hand, after reading the reader responses to yahoo news articles, that's probably an obvious misperception.
Epic fail: Obama ends $500 million training program for anti-ISIS rebels (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/10/epic_fail_obama_ends_500_million_training_program_for_antiisis_rebels.html)
The US wasn't training anyone, other than how to spend taxpayer money like a drunken sailor ... aka McCaine. We need to let Putin run in the 2016 US Presidential election though ... seriously.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 09, 2015, 09:21:33 AM
Pentagon claims Russian missiles missed the targets. On with the propaganda war.
The Pentagon never let out the real Pentagon papers ... just a false flag leak to Ellsberg (patsy or CIA?). And Deep Throat was the deputy head of the FBI ... internal conflict ... just ignore it and move on.
Quote from: Baruch on October 09, 2015, 08:07:55 PM
We need to let Putin run in the 2016 US Presidential election though ... seriously.
I say we call for a "Draft Putin" movement as a Green Party nomination. This could make the Green Party more viable, an actual candidate that people have heard of.
Putin wants to make Russia great again. The US should retaliate by electing Trump, with what's-her-name from Alaska.
If Russia defeats ISIS in a few weeks, it will really make everything the US has done in the last several years look rather silly.
Actually the problem is the US wanted to defeat both Assad and ISIS and still not conquer Syria. But you can't have all three. Russia, on the other hand, just wants to defeat ISIS, and will end up creating a string of allies from doing so. They will get to keep Syria as an ally, but also get Iraq and Iran. This will seriously upset all US plans for Middle Eastern hegemony.
Perhaps American policy is incoherent ... because the elite are still sleeping off all night benders from when they were in frat in Harvard, Yale etc.
I don't believe in phobia as a policy ... including Russo-phobia. Our love of blood-thirsty Muslims acting as our Gurkhas is a self-defeating measure ... simply because you can't go to the well too many times. But if one things a policy works one time, politicians tend to mistake it for a panacea.
Quote from: Baruch on October 12, 2015, 01:05:52 PM
Perhaps American policy is incoherent ... because the elite are still sleeping off all night benders from when they were in frat in Harvard, Yale etc.
Naw, that was yesteryears. Today, the elite in Washington is made up of those who are able to raise funds to finance their perpetual campaign. It's makes no difference which frats they went to. And that's why incumbents have no fear of being displaced. After all, the new challengers aren't spending hours after hours a day, every day, raising money almost two years before the next election.