(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Glass-of-water.jpg)
When you look at the picture above, what do you see?
It is obvious that in fact the glass is half empty and those who say it is half full are fooling themselves. To say that the glass is half full is to erroneously believe that at some point in the future more water will be pour into the glass filling it up. There is nothing absolutely no evidence not a shred that this possibility will happen. It is something optimists take on faith, they refuse to see the reality right before their eyes, they refuse to live in the present reality were the glass is half empty and choose to live in some sort of imaginary future where the glass is full. This is why optimism is so dangerous and probably responsible for much of the evil in society. Optimists are people who refuse to live in the here and now and accept the reality of the situation but choose to live in some sort of future utopia. The problem is not everyone has the same optimistic vision of what utopia should look like and they often end up fighting over which of their fantasy lands is the best. I am telling you my friends we need to renounce optimism before it is too late. I believe our only hope if we are to survive as a species is to give up the unreality of optimism.
Your thoughts please.
I bet you're a lot of fun to be around when people are having a shitty day.
I don't use the word optimist. I use the word proactive because it indicates action in a positive direction. Optimism is a noun. It states a mental attitude. Proactive is an adjective that modifies, meaning action taken. So if you want to be all pessimistic and negative please don't get in front of me because I will run you over.
I think boring people are the ones who say it's one or the other. Half full or half empty, optimist or pessimist. Boring.
Fun people are the ones who come up with other answers, such as:
1. It's full, partially with some liquid (presumably water) and some gas (presumably atmospheric gas)
2. It's closer to half-empty, based on the shape of the glass with a narrower base.
3. The question of emptiness or fullness is irrelevant if you just drink the shit and get a refill.
I prefer to be a realist and look at it from as many angles as possible.
What would I say ?
"There's been a mistake, I ordered a pint of beer"
Seriously, depends on eh liquid, it it's water then it's half empty, if it's vodka, AWESOME ! !!
Truly, I would probably say it was half empty unless I had just seen the glass full of liquid.
Pure optimism is bad, I agree that's why I have always liked the saying
" Hope for the best, prepare for the worst"
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 21, 2015, 09:47:18 PM
I bet you're a lot of fun to be around when people are having a shitty day.
Feelings do not count. What counts is being honest with yourself about what is real not what you think is real but what is absolutely 100% the truth. I really don't care if feeling get hurt, the truth is the truth and we must be honest regardless. Every alcoholic and drug addict that I ever knew were optimist. They never accepted the fact that they had a problem but always believed that they could handle it, that their addiction wasn't out of control and that there was no problem at all. They were in denial. That is optimism. It is a denial of reality and it is dangerous.
I've known optimists and I've known pessimists. Optimists keep looking for solutions and pessimists whine there aren't any. I'd much rather be with optimists than pessimists. Enjoy your friends, I'll enjoy mine.
Quote from: stromboli on September 22, 2015, 01:30:23 AM
I've known optimists and I've known pessimists. Optimists keep looking for solutions and pessimists whine there aren't any. I'd much rather be with optimists than pessimists. Enjoy your friends, I'll enjoy mine.
I think you are confusing pessisism with fatalism. I am what is called a defensive pessismist. I beleive that things can eventually fuck up and that I should be prepared. When it comes to solutions I am prepared because as a pessiimist I can see that there are problems and not everything is roses. So who would you rather go into battle with an optimist who doesn't beleive that he can get killed or a pessimist who knows that the situation is dangerous and you better face it realistically?
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 12:06:34 AM
Feelings do not count. What counts is being honest with yourself about what is real not what you think is real but what is absolutely 100% the truth. I really don't care if feeling get hurt, the truth is the truth and we must be honest regardless. Every alcoholic and drug addict that I ever knew were optimist. They never accepted the fact that they had a problem but always believed that they could handle it, that their addiction wasn't out of control and that there was no problem at all. They were in denial. That is optimism. It is a denial of reality and it is dangerous.
Do you have a history of dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts? That is the among the last thing I would thing of think of when talking about the 1/2 glass or optimism.
One can still be true to them selves and be optimistic.
Quote from: TrueStory on September 22, 2015, 01:46:14 AM
Do you have a history of dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts?
In my immediate family both sets of grandparents were addicts and so was my mother and father. My brother to this day is dealing with addiction. So yes I have a history.
So tell me how can one be true to oneself when you refuse to acknowledge the negative?
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 01:50:46 AM
In my immediate family both sets of grandparents were addicts and so was my mother and father. My brother to this day is dealing with addiction. So yes I have a history.
So tell me how can one be true to oneself when you refuse to acknowledge the negative?
Ones view of a glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty does not actually change the water level.
Being true to oneself would also be acknowledging the negative. Is there a specific situation you are dealing with?
Quote from: TrueStory on September 22, 2015, 02:16:38 AM
Ones view of a glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty does not actually change the water level.
No it doesn't change the water level. It is half empty. To suggest that it is half full is to speculate that it will be full again. That might not happen.
QuoteBeing true to oneself would also be acknowledging the negative.
One should always acknowledge the negative because when you don't you will often lend yourself into naive belief. There are whole industries out there selling optimism to the masses. Joel Osteen and Deepak Chopra are making a fortune selling optimism to the masses.
QuoteIs there a specific situation you are dealing with?
Actually no. I am quite happy right now. That is a stereotype that pessismist can't be happy, believe me we can be very happy campers, because we know there is a bear in the woods and we best avoid the bear if we camp.
I am an eternal optimist, in that I see it as simply positive thinking. I know there is more water so a glass half full is a half glass from being refilled.
Quote from: aitm on September 22, 2015, 12:29:38 PM
I am an eternal optimist, in that I see it as simply positive thinking. I know there is more water so a glass half full is a half glass from being refilled.
Same here. My experience is the positive thinkers tend to be problem solvers and look for solutions. Pessimists tend to be the ones who lay back and shake their fingers at the ones who forge ahead.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 02:41:55 AM
No it doesn't change the water level. It is half empty. To suggest that it is half full is to speculate that it will be full again. That might not happen.
The measurement of 1/2 empty/full is irrelevant to any given situation, how one deals with it is most important.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 02:41:55 AM
One should always acknowledge the negative because when you don't you will often lend yourself into naive belief. There are whole industries out there selling optimism to the masses. Joel Osteen and Deepak Chopra are making a fortune selling optimism to the masses.
Yep.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 02:41:55 AM
Actually no. I am quite happy right now. That is a stereotype that pessismist can't be happy, believe me we can be very happy campers, because we know there is a bear in the woods and we best avoid the bear if we camp.
I don't doubt you are happy, it's just easier to discuss specific situations than abstract ideas.
I'm optimistic you will one day change your position.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2015, 02:15:46 PM
I'm optimistic you will one day change your position.
I doubt I will ever change my position because I have too much fun being a pessimist. Beleive or not but pessisism can be fun.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 02:34:00 PM
Beleive or not but pessisism can be fun.
thats a rabbit hole best left to the professionals.
Quote from: aitm on September 22, 2015, 05:42:50 PM
thats a rabbit hole best left to the professionals.
Indeed.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/ibmh06.jpg)
Quote from: aitm on September 22, 2015, 05:42:50 PM
thats a rabbit hole best left to the professionals.
Thank you Iggy
When I see a glass like that I just think it's twice as big as it needs to be.
“I'd rather be a pessimist because then I can only be pleasantly surprised.â€
Ben Franklin
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 02:34:00 PM
I doubt I will ever change my position because I have too much fun being a pessimist. Beleive or not but pessisism can be fun.
Seems to me we are talking semantics. I think most of us here know that shit happens--and most of us are prepared for that. When shit happens it always presents us with a set of choices. As a person who likes to see the good side of things, I'll chose to make choices that get me to that place. When I see a glass of water that is half filled, I don't worry about it, for I can fill it when I want to. I know I can for I've always done it, and in most of the cases I can envision I always will. But if Z Nation really does occur, then I'll deal with it then. Whatever it is I do, I try to include stuff that I'd need in case something happens I was not counting on. But I don't stress about it. What it's really about for me is choices.
Everyday optimist is seen by me as lunacy. How can you not be pessimistic with all the crap that's going on today!
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 22, 2015, 06:32:42 PM
Everyday optimist is seen by me as lunacy. How can you not be pessimistic with all the crap that's going on today!
It's my choice.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 22, 2015, 06:42:20 PM
It's my choice.
Like theism. It has no rational basis but people still choose to believe in it.
When I look at that pic in the OP, I don't see a glass half empty or half full. I see a glass put at the edge of the table (it really is in the pic, if you didn't notice) that could very easily fall down and break into pieces, doesn't matter how much it holds, especially when the only thing people are interested is how much it could hold for them.
Optimism is a type of defense mechanism. A shortcut. It works in countless ways from daily life, issues in the society people live to big issues of humanity they like to ponder time to time. It changes according to cultures and their collective conventions as well as individual ones.
In western cultures, it rises from the condition of definition by 'contrast'. Comparison. For example, looking at The Middle East or other cultures who are readily defined as 'inferior' or 'bad' and define one's own as a different one without the similar issues. Completely seperating and alienating oneself, the society and the country one lives in the world as a part of that world and as a result, uncapable of seeing the whole as it is.
In an individual level, people usually compare themselves with others, others with others. It's also a building block of a type of identity among world population directly proprotional to your condition/situation/station in life, where you were born; how much you can relate to the over all .
At most times, it's just a delusion and yes it is a result of ignorance, sometimes just striaght 'blindness'.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 11:07:42 PM
Like theism. It has no rational basis but people still choose to believe in it.
I don't see the equation with theism. A choice is a choice. It is religion free; it is neutral. You can chose for any number of reasons. Yes, people chose to believe anything and everything. My choices are made for a number of reasons. I chose to eat ice cream even though it is poison to my health. Not a good choice. But, when presented with the shit life can throw at me, I 'chose' a plan of action that will help me through it. In that situation I reason out what has worked and not worked in the past and go from there. But my attitude is one of searching for and thinking the outcome will be as good as I can hope for. Why? Because that has worked for me in the past. Will something happen in which nothing good will come of it? Yeah, I suppose it could. If so, I will reason my way through it, choosing the best attitude (and most optimistic) that I can.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 23, 2015, 09:09:38 AM
I don't see the equation with theism. A choice is a choice. It is religion free; it is neutral. You can chose for any number of reasons. Yes, people chose to believe anything and everything. My choices are made for a number of reasons. I chose to eat ice cream even though it is poison to my health. Not a good choice. But, when presented with the shit life can throw at me, I 'chose' a plan of action that will help me through it. In that situation I reason out what has worked and not worked in the past and go from there. But my attitude is one of searching for and thinking the outcome will be as good as I can hope for. Why? Because that has worked for me in the past. Will something happen in which nothing good will come of it? Yeah, I suppose it could. If so, I will reason my way through it, choosing the best attitude (and most optimistic) that I can.
The author of the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament gives us a definition of faith:
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.Now look at Oxford's Dictionary definition of optimism:
Hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of somethingSee the similarities? Optimism is having faith that the outcome will be good. It is faith in that which has not yet happened nor can be proven to be actualized. So yes there are similarities between optimism and religious belief.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 23, 2015, 03:09:48 PM
See the similarities? Optimism is having faith that the outcome will be good. It is faith in that which has not yet happened nor can be proven to be actualized. So yes there are similarities between optimism and religious belief.
But pessimism is just negative faith, so...
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 23, 2015, 03:10:47 PM
But pessimism is just negative faith, so...
No...no...no. Pessisism is having no faith that the outcome will be good.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 23, 2015, 03:17:02 PM
No...no...no. Pessisism is having no faith that the outcome will be good.
No, not really. It's more like having faith that the outcome will be bad. You know, the opposite of optimism?
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2v3pgyr.png)
Ironic really, because now you're pulling the glass half full/glass half empty debate about the very meaning of pessimism.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 23, 2015, 03:22:46 PM
No, not really. It's more like having faith that the outcome will be bad. You know, the opposite of optimism?
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2v3pgyr.png)
Ironic really, because now you're pulling the glass half full/glass half empty debate about the very meaning of pessimism.
Didn't you read that? It is about having a lack of hope or confidence, it is not about hoping things will turn out bad.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 23, 2015, 03:09:48 PM
The author of the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament gives us a definition of faith:
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
Now look at Oxford's Dictionary definition of optimism:
Hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something
See the similarities? Optimism is having faith that the outcome will be good. It is faith in that which has not yet happened nor can be proven to be actualized. So yes there are similarities between optimism and religious belief.
You can be as sad and depressed and negative as you wish. More power to you. And if it helps you get through the day, good for you. You can push and pull and massage as much as you want. But optimism and pessimism are neutral. I have been around many theists who are pessimistic. And optimistic. And I don't have faith in anything. I expect things. The sun will rise tomorrow and it will set tomorrow. One day that will not be true--for both me and the planet. But up until this moment, it has been true in my life. I don't have faith the sun will rise, but I expect it to. If it doesn't, then I'll deal with it as best I can. You see, I chose to think of optimism as expecting that the outcome will be good. However, I am not naive about it or neglect my prudent planning. I may carry a spare tire in my car and jumper cables. But I do not expect that I will use them. If I need to, I do know how they are used and can use them.
Look, I know shit happens. I've lived thru a bunch of shit. And I'll live thru more--and some shit may kill me. But, I will not mope around and make plans for when that shit happens, not dwell on it. I just know that shit happens, and I have taken prudent precautions. So, I simply live my life a moment at a time, enjoying it for what it is--not for what it isn't. Many many people live by the axiom of strive for the best but be prepared for the worst. I expect the best; but when shit happens I deal with it.
BTW--that glass is still half full. And yes, it is still too close to the edge of the table.
Channeling Josephpalazzo ... you are all wrong. The water is at the bottom of the glass. It also appears that the temperature of the water has reached ambient room temperature (it isn't boiling or freezing) ... therefore what we are seeing is the maximizing of entropy ... the very pith and marrow of pessimism ... that the future on average will be more and more blah! Dystopia is upon us ... run while you still have positive working energy ;-)
Entropy says the water will eventually evaporate, dumb freethinking theist...:lol:
Matter will eventually evaporate, thereby proving at least BID ... belated intelligent design ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 25, 2015, 07:22:03 AM
Matter will eventually evaporate, thereby proving at least BID ... belated intelligent design ;-)
No, no, no. Matter wasn't designed to evaporate. Liquids, yes. Matter is a different matter... oh wait, is that a pun?!?
May your protons decay, but very slowly ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 25, 2015, 12:53:44 PM
May your protons decay, but very slowly ;-)
You don't say! Proton's half-life is 6.6×10
33 years. Not only will I be dead, but that is longer than the age of the entire universe!!!
Thanks to reincarnation, we all have a front row seat at the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe ... see you there ;-)
The glass is a bad example, because it is erroneous to say that calling the glass half-full, makes any kind of assumptions about the future. Half-full only shows appreciation for what is there, rather than disappointment for what is not there.
If you think theists are optimists, you haven't read Revelation, or paid any attention to what they are saying these days.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/topics/end-times
Optimism and Pessimism, as philosophies, are both ridiculous when taken to the extreme. Read Voltaire's Candide, for a deeper look at it.
In my opinion, the wise will avoid both extremes.
Quote from: Baruch on September 26, 2015, 06:43:18 AM
Thanks to reincarnation, we all have a front row seat at the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe ... see you there ;-)
Reincarnation? Where's your cynicism when it counts?? Where's your anti-realism... oh well, nix that...
There are definitely times when optimism is unrealistic. For the most part this is more a social question of attitude than a matter of reason, though. "Optimism" is an outlook that says, I can actually control my emotions and choose to be a happy person. The person making this claim for him or herself may be telling the truth, and may just be engaging in wishful thinking.
CINDY (edit)
You've been here for how long? By now, you should have come to understand that the difference between the wooful Pollyennas and the science which you still make your pointless point of disparaging is not blind faith vs. throwing shit at every idea anybody may have! It's plain to see that you are in dire need of intense mental health treatment.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 22, 2015, 01:50:46 AM
In my immediate family both sets of grandparents were addicts and so was my mother and father. My brother to this day is dealing with addiction. So yes I have a history.
So tell me how can one be true to oneself when you refuse to acknowledge the negative?
I consider myself an optimist. I think this is a fallacy here, that an optimist must be out of touch with reality.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on November 02, 2015, 03:16:10 PM
You've been here for how long? By now, you should have come to understand that the difference between the wooful Pollyennas and the science which you still make your pointless point of disparaging is not blind faith vs. throwing shit at every idea anybody may have! It's plain to see that you are in dire need of intense mental health treatment.
You talkin' to me, punk? ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on November 02, 2015, 07:20:37 PM
You talkin' to me, punk? ;-)
Does it look like something I would address you on? My intention was to respond to Cindy's asinine rant.
Hope is a very good thing. It is why the species has continued. It is why we have cures for diseases. It is why we are able to talk as we are right now. It is why there are so many inventions, theories, and why mankind has explored space to the extent it has. Because someone...many someones...had hope for a better tomorrow. Hope and optimism are very good things.
When I see a glass which is half full, what matters to me is whether it still has enough water to drown the grating twat who invoked that tired old cliche, and is it good and solid enough glass to knock out sociopathic trolls such as Cindy so that they stay down.
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on September 21, 2015, 08:52:56 PM
When you look at the picture above, what do you see?
It is obvious that in fact the glass is half empty and those who say it is half full are fooling themselves. To say that the glass is half full is to erroneously believe that at some point in the future more water will be pour into the glass filling it up. There is nothing absolutely no evidence not a shred that this possibility will happen. It is something optimists take on faith, they refuse to see the reality right before their eyes, they refuse to live in the present reality were the glass is half empty and choose to live in some sort of imaginary future where the glass is full. This is why optimism is so dangerous and probably responsible for much of the evil in society. Optimists are people who refuse to live in the here and now and accept the reality of the situation but choose to live in some sort of future utopia. The problem is not everyone has the same optimistic vision of what utopia should look like and they often end up fighting over which of their fantasy lands is the best. I am telling you my friends we need to renounce optimism before it is too late. I believe our only hope if we are to survive as a species is to give up the unreality of optimism.
Your thoughts please.
When you say, "It is obvious..." in a philosophy forum on this subject I am automatically suspicious and I hear the word
assumption ringing loud and clear (forgive me for that). I actually think that saying "It's obviously half empty" (basically assuming) is to fool one's self, of sorts. First, I do not "take on faith" anything (since faith is believing something without sound reason or justification). I look at the picture and I see a glass with some water in it which has the potential of having more water in it. Now so far as I can tell, optimism has nothing to do with some "future utopia". Optimism is:
• hopefulness and confidence about the future or the successful outcome of something.
This is the classic general definition and I see nothing wrong with that approach. As others have mentioned, that approach is very useful. It reminds me of the old saying,
"If at first you do not succeed, try try again." For most of my life I considered myself a pessimist, always expecting the bad to happen and easily giving up when things got tough. But that is also b/c my family has a history of clinical depression. With treatment I have actually made many positive strides in changing those thinking patterns. And it has had a very beneficial effect (of which I'm thankful and happy for). But optimism does not mean living in some mental fantasyland that everything is peachy (not even close). It does not even mean that one cannot plan for hard times. It just means being confident that most things are temporary and that they are likely to get better as time progresses. And in fact statistically (for most people) this is in fact the case. So I think you have misrepresented what optimism is about, getting off on the wrong foot from the start as it were, and that is the problem I see.
Unfortunately, CrucifyCindy hasn't been around for 2 months ;-(
Word definition difficulties ... optimism vs self confidence. Synonyms?