STOP RESISTING! STOP RESISTING! STOP RESISTING! HE'S GOT A LINK! *BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM* (http://www.ksat.com/news/ksatcom-exclusive-unedited-video-of-fatal-deputy-involved-shooting)
Quote
SAN ANTONIO - The unedited version of a video obtained by KSAT 12 News showing the fatal shooting of a man by two Bexar County sheriff deputies will now be made available for online viewing.
The video will include the actual moment the 41-year-old suspect, Gilbert Flores, was shot outside a home in the 24400 block of Walnut Pass. The video also shows what deputies Greg Vasquez and Robert Sanchez did moments after the shooting. Vasquez and Sanchez are on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation.
On Friday, KSAT 12 News obtained video showing the shooting of Flores by the deputies during a domestic violence call. At that time, we chose not to show the moment he was shot.
The Bexar County Sheriff's Office and District Attorney's office have addressed the incident, and commented on the video, which calls into question whether the shooting was justified. Now that there is an ongoing investigation by both agencies, and following additional discussions within our newsroom, KSAT 12 News has decided to make the entire video available online.
Providing the video on KSAT.com allows for viewers to make their own decision on whether to click on a link to see the video. Other than editing for language, the video is the entirety of what we received from Michael Thomas.
Copyright 2015 by KSAT - All rights reserved.
So, basic review of the video for those of you who don't want to click it:
The video is shot from about a street or so away. It shows a man in the front yard of a suburban house. He's approached by the police, and seems to flee for a moment until finally giving up and putting his hands up. The very fucking moment he puts his hands up (his hands are clearly up, too), the police open fire. *POP POP* 2 shots and the man is down. The video is shot from far away, so there's no blood to be seen on video. The man is dead. Afterwards the cops walk around like there's nothing wrong, then an ambulance shows up and the video ends.
A few things to note:
The cops are on paid leave while the investigation goes forward, so the lucky taxpayers get to pay these murderers while the matter is being investigated. Fun.
The news station that released the video edited out the language. America: where bad words are a no no but a man being murdered is a-ok.
Not in the link I provided, but the police station actually CRITICIZED the news station for releasing the video. Their reasoning seems to be that the release of the video will interfere with their "investigation", as well as death threats being issued against the officers involved. Funny, when some guy holds up a gas station the video is released to the public and that doesn't affect the investigation in the slightest, nor do they worry about vigilantes then. I'm not one to send death threats to people, but I completely understand why someone would want to kill a murderer.
By the way, that's my opinion of these cops: they are murderers. After watching the video there is really no way to convince me that they aren't murderers.
In the unlikely event of it going to trial, presumably the cops will each squeal, "I feared for my liiiife!" and the whole thing will go away and they'll return to their jobs. 'Murica.
There's no such thing as a cop that isn't an armed thug, which is why we should all become armed thugs who enforce the law ourselves. Of course we would need guns for that. But it's a safe bet that you think you would enforce the law more justly than most cops, don't lie now. In order to enforce it effectively, you need firearms, and in order to use them without harming bystanders or yourself, you should get training. Make that and psychological screening mandatory for those who volunteer to do this in their communities, and you will not have to pay cops, plus you will have many, many more community enforcers available. You also won't have that Blue Line of career pigs protecting pigs from the justice they deserve. When a volunteer breaks the law and harms somebody, the community should compensate the victim or family, and the volunteer can go volunteer for some case where force would not be involved. He won't easily get paid employment when it's his neighbors who have to pay for his fuckup, but since he wasn't paid let him go exempt from criminal prosecution.
NO, NO, NO!!!!! THAT'S LIBERTARIAN INSANITY!!!!!
That it may be, but then so is doing nothing about the status quo other than whine about it. More of police oversight, more investigations, and more of everything else has been tried and worn out for decades, and the more it changes the more it favors the abusive cops. That's when you know that the system needs re-inventing from the ground up - so if not the above change, then the fuck - WHAT???
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 06:38:05 AM
There's no such thing as a cop that isn't an armed thug, which is why we should all become armed thugs who enforce the law ourselves. Of course we would need guns for that. But it's a safe bet that you think you would enforce the law more justly than most cops, don't lie now. In order to enforce it effectively, you need firearms, and in order to use them without harming bystanders or yourself, you should get training. Make that and psychological screening mandatory for those who volunteer to do this in their communities, and you will not have to pay cops, plus you will have many, many more community enforcers available. You also won't have that Blue Line of career pigs protecting pigs from the justice they deserve. When a volunteer breaks the law and harms somebody, the community should compensate the victim or family, and the volunteer can go volunteer for some case where force would not be involved. He won't easily get paid employment when it's his neighbors who have to pay for his fuckup, but since he wasn't paid let him go exempt from criminal prosecution.
NO, NO, NO!!!!! THAT'S LIBERTARIAN INSANITY!!!!!
Apparently in lib-land, money is an acceptable substitute for a person's life. Fuck that noise.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 06:38:05 AM
That it may be, but then so is doing nothing about the status quo other than whine about it. More of police oversight, more investigations, and more of everything else has been tried and worn out for decades, and the more it changes the more it favors the abusive cops. That's when you know that the system needs re-inventing from the ground up - so if not the above change, then the fuck - WHAT???
You're already seeing "WHAT???" Do you really think that the widespread use of cameras filming police's each and every fuckup isn't going to do something? Do you really think that the community is going to let it go? Do you really think those two officers might be in some fear for their lives in case someone carries through with those death threats? Do you not think that the fact that anyone could be watching to expose their shit that cops aren't eventually going to do everything in their power to be as squeaky clean as they pretend to be, else they're out of a job/in prison from the community outrage alone?
No? Then we have
exactly the police force we
deserve.
You can't have cameras filming the police everywhere. You wouldn't even want them trained on your door, so they won't help you when cops come to your house. Cops are getting recorded on cell phones all the time now, but still very few are getting more than a slap on the wrist, if even that. Most street recording cameras are unfortunately of no better resolution than my crappy phone cam, which can leave big holes regarding certainty of what actually happened. Why do they pretend there's still any value in photographic and video evidence, when anybody can download free image editing software and learn how to doctor it up as anything after a few hours playing with it? You would need expert testimony at every such trial, which the courts aren't likely to procure consistently.
From what I can gather, police bodycams seem to suffer mysterious malfunctions when shit goes down....
Well, get your ass down to the station and sign up. You want a better cop, go get em tiger! Not me, dealing with the dredges of society every fucking day…no thanks.
Quote from: aitm on September 03, 2015, 04:01:21 PM
Well, get your ass down to the station and sign up. You want a better cop, go get em tiger! Not me, dealing with the dredges of society every fucking day…no thanks.
Cops have hard jobs, therefore you can't criticize them.
:eyes:
Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on September 03, 2015, 02:55:25 PM
From what I can gather, police bodycams seem to suffer mysterious malfunctions when shit goes down....
oh that, yeah, thats what happens when cops arrest minorities, they spray out an ink that clouds the cameras making it hard to see.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 03, 2015, 04:28:01 PM
Cops have hard jobs, therefore you can't criticize them.
it is certainly easier to criticize all of them as being thugs than to, you know, acknowledge that of the over than 1.1 millionish that yeah, a hundred or two or three are pretty much pieces of shit. I would be happy if we could find that good of an average of any other "group".
Quote from: aitm on September 03, 2015, 04:41:57 PM
it is certainly easier to criticize all of them as being thugs than to, you know, acknowledge that of the over than 1.1 millionish that yeah, a hundred or two or three are pretty much pieces of shit. I would be happy if we could find that good of an average of any other "group".
I never said they were all thugs. I said THOSE cops in THAT case were pieces of shit.
Quote from: aitm on September 03, 2015, 04:41:57 PM
it is certainly easier to criticize all of them as being thugs than to, you know, acknowledge that of the over than 1.1 millionish that yeah, a hundred or two or three are pretty much pieces of shit. I would be happy if we could find that good of an average of any other "group".
I'm not so worried about the integrity of other groups, so long as they haven't the legal right to carry deadly weapons everywhere they go.
As for the integrity of cops, it really doesn't look to me like it will ever get any better. As a humanist, I'd love so much to believe it's possible, but it really ain't looking like there's enough people who are good enough to have a whole arsenal of weapons at their disposal, be honored as an elite, and privileged member of society at an age where they are physically able to train and do the work which is required of them, and not have it go too much to their heads. Their jobs get dangerous, and they face a lot more danger than there should be because we have a system which creates more criminals per capita than any society in the history of human civilization! This I suppose isn't any cop's fault, although the excess of jailable "offenses" helps keep them employed and in demand. As for the relative proportion of bad cops, it's shocking to hear about multiple abuses reported daily, with no sign that it will change soon, and with most crimes a reasonable estimate is several times greater than the rate of incidents reported.
Can anybody in Britain or Europe report on differences with law enforcement relations over there? I heard that cops in some parts of Britain still don't carry guns, and ours are uber-militarized with multiple forms of deadly force, armored trucks, specialized assault teams and assault rifles for everyone else, too. I probably would have heard about it if your cops targeted and killed minorities without cause. How does that work where you are?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 05:42:23 PM
How does that work where you are?
Well, as I said, if you want to go from three hundred to a thousand to 10 thousand "bad apples" out of a million one, I think thats still pretty good odds.
QuoteI'm not so worried about the integrity of other groups,
well, as I implied, I don't think you can get as good as odds from the "other" groups which would encompass everyone but cops.
Perhaps if we had camera's on everybody we could certainly eliminate a lot of problems.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 09:57:53 AM
You can't have cameras filming the police everywhere.
We already do.
(http://s15.postimg.org/qgywicvfv/iphone6_plus_box_space_gray_2014_wid_478_hei_595.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
upload imagem (http://postimage.org/)
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 09:57:53 AM
You wouldn't even want them trained on your door, so they won't help you when cops come to your house. Cops are getting recorded on cell phones all the time now, but still very few are getting more than a slap on the wrist, if even that.
And what happens then? You get protests in the streets. Happened with Larry King. Happened in Fergeson (I have no idea how it's spelt at the moment).
You have to realize that it still may take some time for it to sink in that police can and sometimes do act like thugs.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 09:57:53 AM
Most street recording cameras are unfortunately of no better resolution than my crappy phone cam, which can leave big holes regarding certainty of what actually happened. Why do they pretend there's still any value in photographic and video evidence, when anybody can download free image editing software and learn how to doctor it up as anything after a few hours playing with it? You would need expert testimony at every such trial, which the courts aren't likely to procure consistently.
Photo manipulation isn't magic. It takes skill and time to doctor a single image the way you are describing, and it only gets worse with a live video. It is possible to do, but it takes a dedicated studio like PIXAR etc. to do in a timely fashion and make it look
right, where "timely" is in time for a film to be finished, which can take years. These images and videos are being posted hours to days after the event, much too soon for that kind of film manipulation to happen.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 03, 2015, 06:15:55 PM
We already do.
(http://s15.postimg.org/qgywicvfv/iphone6_plus_box_space_gray_2014_wid_478_hei_595.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
upload imagem (http://postimage.org/)
And what happens then? You get protests in the streets. Happened with Larry King. Happened in Fergeson (I have no idea how it's spelt at the moment).
You have to realize that it still may take some time for it to sink in that police can and sometimes do act like thugs.
Ok, I see that you accept police brutality as an acceptable inevitability, which you are willing to tolerate in exchange for the feeling that your own ass is more safe. Which means that you are in no way subject to the consequences of such a sacrifice - now isn't that just huge of you! Sorry, but I cannot in good conscience accept that, and I doubt much that millions of Americans who are now angrier than they have been about anything since the assassination of MLK are going to just quiet down and let it go either. At no time soon will that happen!
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 03, 2015, 06:15:55 PM
Photo manipulation isn't magic. It takes skill and time to doctor a single image the way you are describing, and it only gets worse with a live video. It is possible to do, but it takes a dedicated studio like PIXAR etc. to do in a timely fashion and make it look right, where "timely" is in time for a film to be finished, which can take years. These images and videos are being posted hours to days after the event, much too soon for that kind of film manipulation to happen.
Photo manipulation can fix anything, given the time and skills. I've been fairly slow in my experiments embellishing single images, but I know that if I had the average amount of time between incident report and trial date, I could make the typical low-res vid look like anything I want it to (especially if I wasn't a cop but a paid professional or brother of a cop who could go at it full time). Someday the courts are going to become aware of this, that anybody bringing them a complaint based on photos and videos has the technology available to fix them at no cost, and that it isn't really that hard to do. Then what? Then they won't admit evidence from any cams other than their own, and then once again it will be NOT ENOUGH!
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Ok, I see that you accept police brutality as an acceptable inevitability,
uh….I think you're projecting a little. I could not get that from his post even trying.
I think we need to keep in mind...
These actions don't represent Moderate Policemenâ,,¢. Not at all.
We have to look at the millions of peaceful Moderate Policemenâ,,¢ who are condemning the actions of these few "bad seeds".
We cant judge all Moderate Policemenâ,,¢ on the actions of a small percentage of "radicals" who take their oaths too far.
We cant judge Policism to be a violent profession, even though they are trained, and it is their professional obligation, to hurt other humans in the name of their idea of "peace".
We cant blame Moderate Policemenâ,,¢ for creating an environment of acceptance and complacency when the radicals give them a bad name.
I'm sure the millions of Moderate Policemenâ,,¢ are rioting right now against the radicals.
Awww, look at you comparing apples and spaceships.
Your right, they are completely different. I cant see how I could compare them...
-One is an organized group with millions upon millions of individuals who willingly adhere to it's tenets. It teaches both peace and violence, and a very small percentage of it's followers take the violent part too literally and give the rest of it's followers a bad name. It has a code of ethics and tells people what is right and wrong, and actively goes out to "save" people. It has a special uniform for men and women to wear. It is often sexist. It is accused that the moderates do not do enough to combat the "bad seeds" in it's ranks and therefor are guilty of their crimes as well through silent agreement. The violent radicals often brutally murder their victims, and are not held responsible by authorities. It is a widely distrusted group from people outside, even though the majority of it's members are just normal men and women who are out trying to be the best people they can be.
-The other one is organized group with millions upon millions of individuals who willingly adhere to it's tenets. It teaches both peace and violence, and a very small percentage of it's followers take the violent part too literally and give the rest of it's followers a bad name. It has a code of ethics and tells people what is right and wrong, and actively goes out to "save" people. It has a special uniform for men and women to wear. It is often sexist. It is accused that the moderates do not do enough to combat the "bad seeds" in it's ranks and therefor are guilty of their crimes as well through silent agreement. The violent radicals often brutally murder their victims, and are not held responsible by authorities. It is a widely distrusted group from people outside, even though the majority of it's members are just normal men and women who are out trying to be the best people they can be.
Edit: I do suppose there is one key difference...
The policemen are MY EMPLOYEES, so I have JUST CAUSE TO HOLD THEM TO CERTAIN STANDARDS
Thank you.
In one case a little over 1.1 million is being paid to protect over 330 million, maybe ten thousand of those being paid to protect are pieces of shit.
In the other case, none of them are being paid to protect anyone and some of those are being paid to kill people for the sake of killing them. Thank you again.
Wrong again, bob.
QuoteIn one case a little over 1.1 million is being paid to protect over 330 million, maybe ten thousand of those being paid to protect are pieces of shit.
In America, sure. Of course, you also have to take in account there are police outside of the United States... millllllions of them. MILLLLLLLIIIIOOOONS!
*cough* Ahem, anyways...
In many countries, both now and in the past, the police have acted as an arm of ideologically driven radical regimes, and carried out their brutality as a matter of course, as their expected obligation to their oath, or as a means of enforcing the regime or their own personal ideology on people weaker than them.
Also; tens of thousands of them ARE assholes, there is simply no way to deny that. There is FAR more "radical police violence" in the United States than there is Muslim violence, but the amount of officer's who are coming out and condemning it doesn't seem to be any greater than the Muslim population... a larger population which is committing far less notable offenses in the United States. If they aren't condemning it, then it MUST mean they agree with it, right?
QuoteIn the other case, none of them are being paid to protect anyone...
And somehow they STILL manage to be one of the lower crime rate groups in the United States.
Edit: And take into account that many of them are lower socioeconomic African American converts, who tend to have higher than average crime rates.
Quote... and some of those are being paid to kill people for the sake of killing them.
Please, tell me the number of Muslims killing people for money here in the United States (since you are only counting American police officers as police officers, I think that is only fair).
Then tell me the number of Muslims committing crimes in the United States compared to other groups.
Then tell me the number of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims in the United States, and the number of terrorist/hate crimes committed by other groups (overwhelming whitey and Latino Christians).
So a group I have less reason to hold to a higher standard manages to be better human beings the cops... yeah, you sure thought that one through, that really proved I am judging cops too harshly... :roll:
Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2015, 11:04:04 PM
Then tell me the number of Muslims committing crimes in the United States compared to other groups.
Since your first post said million of millions, it was obvious you did not mean muslims in America, how cute you dove right for that cover. Nice try, bob.
Quote from: aitm on September 03, 2015, 11:12:02 PM
Since your first post said million of millions, it was obvious you did not mean muslims in America, how cute you dove right for that cover. Nice try, bob.
No shit. Just like I didn't mean just American police.
Millions upon millions means more than 1.1 million. that would just be "a million".
So please, since you insist on only talking about Americans, how many Muslims commit crimes here compared to otherr minority groups, and why is it lower than other groups?
Why do the boogeymen, who have "lower standards", live more ethically than a group that is PAID to be held to higher standards?
Start a thread about police, morphs into Muslims. Can't explain that.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1325696/images/o-BILL-OREILLY-facebook.jpg)
Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2015, 11:17:28 PM
No shit. Just like I didn't mean just American police.
Well, thats who I am talking about. Stay focused.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 03, 2015, 11:29:14 PM
Start a thread about police, morphs into Muslims. Can't explain that.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1325696/images/o-BILL-OREILLY-facebook.jpg)
Sorry, it was a joking stab at the double standard of the "if you don't actively condemn it, you are guilty!". Could also replace Muslim with Christian, communist, black ,military or who ever the in vogue group to fear is.
Aitm: holy mother of projection... Yes please let us stay focused... Since we are only talking American, please answer my question of why American Muslims, with lower standards to be held to, uphold the law better than the police, men and women held to higher standards and PAID to do so.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2015, 11:41:41 PM
Since we are only talking American, please answer my question of why American Muslims, with lower standards to be held to, uphold the law better than the police, men and women held to higher standards and PAID to do so.
Oh please, you know very well your implication was all about the perception of muslims worldwide versus american police. You want to backtrack now? Face it, you're an apologists, but we all know that. But by all means carry on, I am sure someone is interested.
Quote from: aitm on September 03, 2015, 11:52:43 PM
Oh please, you know very well your implication was all about the perception of muslims worldwide versus american police.
Uh yeah, kinda the same as my implication was about the perception of police worldwide... hence the reason I said millions upon millions of police and not "1.1 million". But since you wanted to make it about American police only, I made it about American Muslim only... which made your argument look even weaker, so you went on a several post deflection spree. And now that we are back on topic you want to deflect again because that's all you seem to be ever capable of doing.
QuoteYou want to backtrack now?
Yes, I am backtracking by saying the exact same thing I have said the whole time. Brilliant logic there.
QuoteFace it, you're an apologists, but we all know that.
Again, projection by the pig apologist. But we all expect that by now.
(Note; I use pig only to refer to those radical, civilian hating police officers, even though I know full well it is a derogatory term. Kinda like feminazi. Judge me not.)
QuoteBut by all means carry on, I am sure someone is interested.
It doesn't seem any one is, since the only one responding clearly lacks any reading comprehension or, when he does, realises how much of an ass he is making himself out to be and deflects... but hey, such is life. You win some, you lose some.
This just in, hundred of rouge cops in Ann Arbor started killing other cops and beheading civilians proclaiming that only cops with silver badges were true cops. A couple departments of cops from neighboring Detroit went to engage the rouge cops but as soon as they saw them they dropped their weapons and ran. Meanwhile the rouge cops, only a few of them threatened to blow up a very old tree that they deemed insulting to the silver badge. Other cops across the country are doing nothing…
:rotflmao:
Quote from: aitm on September 04, 2015, 07:00:58 AM
This just in, hundred of rouge cops in Ann Arbor started killing other cops and beheading civilians proclaiming that only cops with silver badges were true cops. A couple departments of cops from neighboring Detroit went to engage the rouge cops but as soon as they saw them they dropped their weapons and ran. Meanwhile the rouge cops, only a few of them threatened to blow up a very old tree that they deemed insulting to the silver badge. Other cops across the country are doing nothing…
:rotflmao:
Cops who wear rouge did this? Maybe that's what makes some women so emotional when they apply that to their faces! If it gets cops to behead civilians...
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Ok, I see that you accept police brutality as an acceptable inevitability,
Statistically, yes. When you gather a large number of people together, you are going to get a few assholes, and if you give them power, then the assholes are going to abuse that power. That's not the question. The question is, what do you do about it?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
which you are willing to tolerate in exchange for the feeling that your own ass is more safe.
Do you actually believe that you would be more safe without any police officers?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Which means that you are in no way subject to the consequences of such a sacrifice - now isn't that just huge of you!
Wait, what?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Sorry, but I cannot in good conscience accept that, and I doubt much that millions of Americans who are now angrier than they have been about anything since the assassination of MLK are going to just quiet down and let it go either. At no time soon will that happen!
Alright, now I
know you are not understanding a thing I'm saying. I am catagorically not saying, "Police officers should be allowed to do anything at all to criminals." News flash for you, scrub, that is exactly the
opposite of what I'm saying. I'm
encouraging people to rise up and demand them take the police to task and demand better of them.
Muppet.Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Photo manipulation can fix anything, given the time and skills.
Whatever, photo-magic-man.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
I've been fairly slow in my experiments embellishing single images, but I know that if I had the average amount of time between incident report and trial date, I could make the typical low-res vid look like anything I want it to (especially if I wasn't a cop but a paid professional or brother of a cop who could go at it full time).
Uh huh. And what happens when a dozen people post their own videos of the same incident and none of them agree with yours?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 03, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Someday the courts are going to become aware of this, that anybody bringing them a complaint based on photos and videos has the technology available to fix them at no cost, and that it isn't really that hard to do. Then what? Then they won't admit evidence from any cams other than their own, and then once again it will be NOT ENOUGH!
First, you do know there's such thing as photo forensics, do you not? Every manipulation is going to leave artifacts in the data that a forensics expert can uncover and blow your lie wide open.
Second, if you're the victim and complaintent, then you're not going to have a "low-resolution video" of the incident to alter. Your proximity means that modern smart phones are going to get video with pretty good fidelity, which makes photo manipulation much more difficult.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 03:00:40 PM
Cops who wear rouge did this? Maybe that's what makes some women so emotional when they apply that to their faces! If it gets cops to behead civilians...
sonof a ……..well, I deserve that.
Hakurei - PEACE!
I don't think I accused you of saying the police should be allowed to do anything they want to. Fear breeds anger, and you did allude to the problematic effect of angry people viewing violence against those who they identify with. I believe you also suggested that it will take awhile for it to "sink in" to those in this group that there will always be a few monsters on a police force which, when it gets bad, has taken most of its hostility out on them. Therefore I can only wonder how you could say that and not expect to offend them. Something has to done to significantly stop these abuses, and it will have to be something other than more of which began decades ago with Rodney King and went absolutely nowhere other than the wrong direction. Cameras filmed the beating of RK too, and the pigs who beat him nearly to death went free. Cameras may be all over the streets of your town, but they aren't anywhere other than on a few traffic lights on mine, and this won't be changing soon. Button cams or body cams - get serious, their only as reliable as the honor or the wearer. This is why I think policing needs to be reinvented entirely.
There's a problem with white cops in black neighborhoods, and the blacks aren't on the force for cultural bias, and the force avoids hiring them for the same. What can be done to fix this?
I see two things that need to be done:
1. Get the white cops out of black neighborhoods.
2. Find a different way of getting blacks to police their own neighborhoods.
Got ideas for how? Anyone?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
1. Get the white cops out of black neighborhoods.
2. Find a different way of getting blacks to police their own neighborhoods.
I am not accusing you of anything at all because you express the same sentiments that many do, but do you not read what you posted and wonder if maybe we should have restaurants and hotels and bathrooms for blacks and whites as well then? hmmm? I think perhaps you posted a little premature...
Quote from: aitm on September 04, 2015, 09:14:31 PM
I am not accusing you of anything at all because you express the same sentiments that many do, but do you not read what you posted and wonder if maybe we should have restaurants and hotels and bathrooms for blacks and whites as well then? hmmm? I think perhaps you posted a little premature...
You know I wouldn't say that, even if it reads a little different from what I intended!
The problem is that policing is much too centralized, and it results in non-local police policing areas which they do not empathize with. Therefore, pollicing in America needs to be decentralized, and radically so! It's been a problem which has driven the wedge between rich and poor regardless of race, ever since car-patrols displaced the beat-walkers. Efficiency with limited manpower is a problem only because cops demand more pay than teachers, and are ridiculously coddled. The militarization of cops only drove the arms race between society and the animals which threaten it!
What we need is not more deadly toys for cops, and we sure don't need anything which would lead to racial division. We don't even need more cops at all, although keeping our sherriffs and their deputies would be necessary. We need PEOPLE patrolling their neighborhoods, whoever these people are, and whoever they are, not cops, and they should be fully supported by and trained in the community for their own security!
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
Hakurei - PEACE!
I don't think I accused you of saying the police should be allowed to do anything they want to. Fear breeds anger, and you did allude to the problematic effect of angry people viewing violence against those who they identify with. I believe you also suggested that it will take awhile for it to "sink in" to those in this group that there will always be a few monsters on a police force which, when it gets bad, has taken most of its hostility out on them. Therefore I can only wonder how you could say that and not expect to offend them. Something has to done to significantly stop these abuses, and it will have to be something other than more of which began decades ago with Rodney King and went absolutely nowhere other than the wrong direction. Cameras filmed the beating of RK too, and the pigs who beat him nearly to death went free. Cameras may be all over the streets of your town,
They aren't, but just about everyone has a smart phone. A smart phone with a camera in it. Where millions of pixels resolution is the norm, and data throughput and storage of these devices going up every iteration, a "low-fidelity" shot is something that's not going to be an option. While there may not be a camera station installed at every corner, as smart phones penetrate deeper into society, what will come about will be just as good: everyone in town becomes a survalence camera, who will start filming scenes of cops arresting people because everyone likes a good drama.
What you are going to increasingly find is that, while misbehaving cops may not be
proscecuted, they will be out of
jobs, because the departments are not going to deal with the humiliation and scrutiny they will be under in an increasingly civillian-camera world â€" not just from the county of origin, but worldwide as shit happens and is exposed to the light of day. You don't have to make a conviction stick to cause change in a world like that.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
but they aren't anywhere other than on a few traffic lights on mine, and this won't be changing soon. Button cams or body cams - get serious, their only as reliable as the honor or the wearer.
If a cop's body-cam keeps fitzing out at inconvenient moments, especially in an age where electronic reliability is only getting better, the excuse of breakdown is going to wear
very thin. Also, smart phones will provide powerful corroboration/backup as they become cheaper and cheaper.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
This is why I think policing needs to be reinvented entirely.
Nobody has every managed to replace an entire institution wholesale like you are advocating and make it work. Many have tried, all have ended up with basket-case societies. Like it or not, our society has adapted to the fact that cops police our actions. We depend on them being a phone call away. That's not something you can simply rip out and replace with something that performs nominally the same function differently, and to expect society to putter along with only the slightest of glitches.
You have to understand that cops do, in fact, resolve most situations peacefully. It's the fraction that doesn't that people are up in arms about.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
There's a problem with white cops in black neighborhoods, and the blacks aren't on the force for cultural bias, and the force avoids hiring them for the same.
I'm not sure white cops in black neighborhoods is a problem,
per se. However, policing is a skilled profession, and even the formally trained still need some training in the world to apply it effectively. That means replacing a majority of white cops in black neighborhoods with black cops (ignoring the obvious Jim Crowe segregation stink that entails) is going to take time, and as such would be a slow transition.
And before you say that those neighborhoods can and will "police themselves," no they won't. We turned the task of policing over to specialized people (cops) in the first place because we were unwilling to do it ourselves. Black neighborhoods will be no different.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
The problem isâ€"
Stop right there. I don't think you know what "the problem" is. The bottom line is that policing is a stressful job. There's procedure to follow, or any evidence you gather is going to be thrown out in a court of law. That gun you disparage does take constant training to use well; you slack off on your drawing exercises, you could find your gun catching on your clothing in a critical moment and become a corpse instead of a hero. There's of course dealing with people whose tempers are running hot and may explode at a moment's notice, with real risk of death. Nobody's going to put themselves through that willingly unless you pay them accordingly.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
What we need is not more deadly toys for cops, and we sure don't need anything which would lead to racial division. We don't even need more cops at all, although keeping our sherriffs and their deputies would be necessary. We need PEOPLE patrolling their neighborhoods, whoever these people are, and whoever they are, not cops, and they should be fully supported by and trained in the community for their own security!
You realize that the crazies and criminals aren't going away because the cops do, right? They're going to be as much a threat as they ever were, and with relatively inexperienced people trying to keep order in place of cops working
for free in hazardous situations, whom do you think is likely to give up sooner? No, you're going to have to at least pay them for their trouble, and train them to resolve situations, even dangerous ones, cleanly and peaceably, and if not, resolve the situations in such a way that they are likely to survive the experience. And finally, they have to make charges against wrongdoers stick in court, which is its own skill that has to be trained.
But of course, a fully supported and trained person employed in law enforcement would be... a cop. Oops.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
only because cops demand more pay than teachers,
ah….sorry…what? I for one am all for getting teachers better pay. No doubt. They have a job that is far harder than anyone's really. Especially in some schools where discipline is absent, and trying to discipline can be life threatening. But people don't walk around shooting at school teaches because they are schools teachers. To claim that cops demand more than teachers is a mite of a teaser, their pay "demands" are not based or compared to what teachers get paid any more than their demands are based or compared to what burger flippers make,(though Facebook posters seem to think otherwise)
Quoteand are ridiculously coddled.
oookey dookey then. I think I'll just walk away from that one.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 04, 2015, 11:50:34 PM
Nobody has every managed to replace an entire institution wholesale like you are advocating and make it work. Many have tried, all have ended up with basket-case societies. Like it or not, our society has adapted to the fact that cops police our actions. We depend on them being a phone call away. That's not something you can simply rip out and replace with something that performs nominally the same function differently, and to expect society to putter along with only the slightest of glitches.
Yeah, the Americans failed miserably when they replaced their political system, didn't they?
Anyway, did I suggest that any changes could happen overnight? As with the unfortunate state of the health care system in my country, changes in how Americans police their neighborhoods will have to move slowly, but ultimately far away from its current position.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 04, 2015, 11:50:34 PM
But of course, a fully supported and trained person employed in law enforcement would be... a cop. Oops.
We need reasonably-trained people to patrol neighborhoods who actually know those neighborhoods which they patrol, and also know and respect the people who live there. The status quo current system has a serious, and unmitigable problem with that. Oops!
Fully-trained professionals would be working for the local sheriff, and they would be responsible for the processing of arrests - therefore, this elected office would need to be expanded a bit. But instead of patrolling, they would be on call to assist neighborhood patrols, while providing backup and direction in situations. Because when you have those who care watching the neighborhood, you will have a better neighborhood which the baddies will stay out of.
Fully trained professionals working for the local sheriff and responsible for processing arrests....
...I think there's a word for that.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
Yeah, the Americans failed miserably when they replaced their political system, didn't they?
They didn't. Not completely. The american political system inherited much of its precident and form from the parlementary system that had been practiced in England for centuries.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
Anyway, did I suggest that any changes could happen overnight? As with the unfortunate state of the health care system in my country, changes in how Americans police their neighborhoods will have to move slowly, but ultimately far away from its current position.
Fair enough. Let's take a look at that plan of yours...
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
We need reasonably-trained people
Training someone to a reasonable level of law enforcement competence isn't free, or even cheap. Who's going to pay for this?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
to patrol neighborhoods who actually know those neighborhoods which they patrol,
What makes you think that people who live in the neighborhood have any better grasp of the neighborhood than a cop does? Wouldn't your solution be just as well served as moving the beat cops into the neighborhood in which they patrol?
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
and also know and respect the people who live there.
All of the mistreatment we've seen so far is basic failure to treat human beings as human beings. There's no special advantage of having a "local person" on patrol in this instance.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
The status quo current system has a serious, and unmitigable problem with that. Oops!
Nobody is preventing a cop from living in the same neighborhood they patrol. :think:
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
Fully-trained professionals would be working for the local sheriff, and they would be responsible for the processing of arrests - therefore, this elected office would need to be expanded a bit. But instead of patrolling, they would be on call to assist neighborhood patrols, while providing backup and direction in situations. Because when you have those who care watching the neighborhood, you will have a better neighborhood which the baddies will stay out of.
Oh yes, the citizens go out on patrol and suddenly every criminal is scared shitless. Except for the citizens who wash out of training. Except the citizens who have other obligations (to their families, etc). Except the citizens you can't pay enough to go out and risk life and limb. Except the citizens who don't know what the fuck they're doing. Except the citizens who think its someone else's job to do patrols. Except the citizens who figure out "patrols" take far more time and effort than they're willing to give. Except the citizens who are criminals themselves.
Hmmm... this isn't looking too thought out.
If these people care so much about their neighborhoods, why aren't they doing more already? It's not as if citizen's watch is a brand new thing. Participation in citizen watches is poor even when all you needed was a good set of eyes and knowledge of the neighborhood. Now, you're proposing a citizen watch that you have to actually train for.
I don't think the citizenry cares as much as you think you do.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
They didn't. Not completely. The american political system inherited much of its precident and form from the parlementary system that had been practiced in England for centuries.
And I'm not calling for anything not actually preconceived either, so can we dispense with the hypocritical bullshit allegations already? Neighborhood foot patrols actually worked quite well in this country, and around the world until car patrols drove the wedge between communities.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
Fair enough. Let's take a look at that plan of yours...
Training someone to a reasonable level of law enforcement competence isn't free, or even cheap. Who's going to pay for this?
What makes you think that people who live in the neighborhood have any better grasp of the neighborhood than a cop does? Wouldn't your solution be just as well served as moving the beat cops into the neighborhood in which they patrol?
Ignorance is strength!
Honest to fuck, Hakurei, of all people here I never would have guessed you being so ignorant as this on people!
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
All of the mistreatment we've seen so far is basic failure to treat human beings as human beings. There's no special advantage of having a "local person" on patrol in this instance.
:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
Nobody is preventing a cop from living in the same neighborhood they patrol. :think:
Nobody is requireing them to, and that's the point!
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
Oh yes, the citizens go out on patrol and suddenly every criminal is scared shitless. Except for the citizens who wash out of training. Except the citizens who have other obligations (to their families, etc). Except the citizens you can't pay enough to go out and risk life and limb. Except the citizens who don't know what the fuck they're doing. Except the citizens who think its someone else's job to do patrols. Except the citizens who figure out "patrols" take far more time and effort than they're willing to give. Except the citizens who are criminals themselves.
It's about restoring confidence in the police system for all communities, not about intimidation of anyone. Thank you for clarifying how much you are out-of-touch with the reality of this problem. You probably live behind a gate with guards. [/quote]
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
Hmmm... this isn't looking too thought out.
You aren't thinking at all on this one - you're filibustering, plus I believe you are doing this for personal reasons. That's just shameful, because making society work again and ending the bloodshed of innocent civilians should be far more important than whatever personal issues you have with me.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
If these people care so much about their neighborhoods, why aren't they doing more already?
Because they can't - it's really that simple.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
It's not as if citizen's watch is a brand new thing.
Try googleing George Zimmerman!
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
Participation in citizen watches is poor even when all you needed was a good set of eyes and knowledge of the neighborhood. Now, you're proposing a citizen watch that you have to actually train for.
See George Zimmerman again - this is one of the reasons why training should be required! Not just for firearms training, but for proper procedures and psychological screening as well.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 05, 2015, 10:14:35 PM
I don't think the citizenry cares as much as you think you do.
I think they deserve a chance, which is not something they really have had. Put the power back in the hands of the people who care, and it doesn't matter how few there are who care. A few will inspire a few more, eventually leading to community investment, while the bad guys will follow the path of least resistance elsewhere.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
And I'm not calling for anything not actually preconceived either, so can we dispense with the hypocritical bullshit allegations already? Neighborhood foot patrols actually worked quite well in this country, and around the world until car patrols drove the wedge between communities.
Proof or take a hike.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
Ignorance is strength!
Honest to fuck, Hakurei, of all people here I never would have guessed you being so ignorant as this on people!
:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
You're the one who somehow thinks that drawing people who somehow don't know which houses are harboring criminals constitute them "knowing the community." For fuck's sake, it
doesn't take "knowing the community" to figure out that you don't shoot someone who has their hands up. If you're doing that, you're too fucked up to be a police officer, even in the community you hail from.
I can't believe that I have to explain this to you.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
Nobody is requireing them to, and that's the point!
So why do they need to drop the requirement? Because I'm sure that a good cop would rather patrol the place where they actually live over one that they don't, if nothing more than to guarantee that the place where they live is a little bit safer. Less of a commute to the station, too! Now, why don't they make it exclusive?
Because they
can't. There are too damn few cops hailing from those neighborhoods for it to be patrolled exclusively by cops from those neighborhoods. So they have to bring others in to make up for the shortfall. Your requirement would leave my neighborhood literally without any law enforcement whatsoever!
And
that's the point!
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
It's about restoring confidence in the police system for all communities, not about intimidation of anyone. Thank you for clarifying how much you are out-of-touch with the reality of this problem. You probably live behind a gate with guards.
You're the only one who would leave the gates without guards.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
You aren't thinking at all on this one - you're filibustering, plus I believe you are doing this for personal reasons.
I'd think, "Leaving me without any police coverage whatsoever," is a damn personal
and relevant reason, bucko!
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
That's just shameful, because making society work again and ending the bloodshed of innocent civilians should be far more important than whatever personal issues you have with me.
Yes, I have personal issues with you because I think that your solution is unworkable and have the
nerve to say so. What the fuck ever.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
Because they can't - it's really that simple.
Try googleing George Zimmerman!
I was
here when we were tussling it out about George Zimmerman, and I was on the side of "George Zimmerman was wrong for what he was doing and deserved jail." So, yeah, I know George Zimmerman, thank you.
And guess what â€"
George Zimmerman wasn't a cop! He was a neighborhood patroller just like you are proposing would save us from ourselves! He disobeyed police dispatchers who told him to stay put and went out to confront Martin and subsequently killed him. If anything, Zimmerman is an argument
against civilian patrols, not for.
Muppet.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
See George Zimmerman again - this is one of the reasons why training should be required! Not just for firearms training, but for proper procedures and psychological screening as well.
Yep, and most of them aren't going to make the cut and wash out. We have enough problems with training up people who
want to be cops â€" want to be cops badly enough to bust their butts and get the training and credentials required to perform their jobs right! Again, these are the ones who
want in, yet it doesn't seem to be enough. How are you going to make up for the shortfall? Are you going to
press people into becoming your new breed of cop? Yeah, that'll work! And way to trample upon American principles of freedom of choice!
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 05, 2015, 11:19:30 PM
I think they deserve a chance, which is not something they really have had. Put the power back in the hands of the people who care, and it doesn't matter how few there are who care. A few will inspire a few more, eventually leading to community investment, while the bad guys will follow the path of least resistance elsewhere.
Nobody is preventing anyone from a certain neighborhood from entering the police academy, get the training, and then come back to their communities to make it better. They're not doing it. They're not doing it because they don't care enough about their own community to make it better in this way. This has a myriad of reasons from being too economically depressed to get police academy training, to being unwilling or unable to complete the training, to having the police business looking unattractive enough for them as a career, such that they enter some other line of work and move out of their depressed neighborhoods. And because there's a shortage of locals wanting/able to be cops that they have to cart in cops from other areas in the first place.
None of these will be solved by inventing a whole new police force. These are problems with economics and education, and incentivization to attract people into the profession of policing. They are also problems with the inherent dangers and stress of police work. And they're problems with the police's reputation itself.
Firing cops that behave badly disincentivizes cops from behaving badly. That's a start. Now we need to incentivize people to
be cops in the first place, because you're never going to get your new police force in the numbers you need currently unless you press them into service, which will not make for happy cops or communities. I really think it's going to take a cultural change to do this, because currently, most people are going to follow the path of least resistence and aid the criminals.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on September 06, 2015, 06:49:32 PM
Proof or take a hike.
Now you're getting downright rude.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine. If you can't abide by that, then you can go fuck off.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 06, 2015, 06:59:37 PM
Now you're getting downright rude.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine. If you can't abide by that, then you can go fuck off.
Here we expect people to provide evidence for their claims, it's a valid request.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 06, 2015, 08:27:04 PM
Here we expect people to provide evidence for their claims, it's a valid request.
If I'm not talking fact, then so fucking what - niether is anyone else on this issue, excepting one thing - the current system doesn't work! If you think the status quo situation can be fixed with technology, then history says otherwise. America has a problem with a group which has the same political rights on paper, but they aren't in fact included in society, and they are severely under-represented on police forces. This may be on account of cultural issues which make its members unwilling to join police forces, or it may be that they don't really get the jobs they apply for. It may be that they are discouraged from the crushing bigotry they face when they join the force. Therefore, when Hakurei says there's "nothing to stop them from signing up at the police academy", that is nothing short of crass, ignorant bullshit!
Anyway, I made my attempt to seed what thinking I could outside the box, and you people just divebomb and shed it like so many cackling crows. What they're doing now doesn't work, the problem is strongly related to bigoted white cops in black neighborhoods, and I'm not going to tell you how to go look at the news reports for proof on that.
You know something, fuck this discussion, I've had enough of trying to fix what nobody wants to fix. You ultra-liberal assholes are going to tax me out of my very modest home on your tech spending sprees, they will be a glorious waste of money, and then I'll move to Florida where at least I can have the weapons which make it possible for me to defend myself.
I have hope that this will go to trial and justice will be served. However that plays out. The man who was shot will never be alive again, but at least for his family's sake, I hope justice is served. I have never dated a cop. While some are humble servants protecting the public, so many are on power trips and they treat their women like shit, I've heard.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 06, 2015, 10:01:15 PM
If I'm not talking fact, then so fucking what - niether is anyone else on this issue, excepting one thing - the current system doesn't work! If you think the status quo situation can be fixed with technology, then history says otherwise. America has a problem with a group which has the same political rights on paper, but they aren't in fact included in society, and they are severely under-represented on police forces. This may be on account of cultural issues which make its members unwilling to join police forces, or it may be that they don't really get the jobs they apply for. It may be that they are discouraged from the crushing bigotry they face when they join the force. Therefore, when Hakurei says there's "nothing to stop them from signing up at the police academy", that is nothing short of crass, ignorant bullshit!
Anyway, I made my attempt to seed what thinking I could outside the box, and you people just divebomb and shed it like so many cackling crows. What they're doing now doesn't work, the problem is strongly related to bigoted white cops in black neighborhoods, and I'm not going to tell you how to go look at the news reports for proof on that.
You know something, fuck this discussion, I've had enough of trying to fix what nobody wants to fix. You ultra-liberal assholes are going to tax me out of my very modest home on your tech spending sprees, they will be a glorious waste of money, and then I'll move to Florida where at least I can have the weapons which make it possible for me to defend myself.
Um, us "ultraliberals" do want to fix the problem of police brutality. Have you seen any protests from the right on this matter? No! To them everyone killed is a criminal who deserved it. What you're suggesting is a radical restructuring of society without any evidence it will work.
What we're suggesting is more accountability and surveillance on the cops, while acknowledging that not all cops are horrid people.
Have you ever know a cop? I have. I've partied with a cop that wanted to get out because he was disgusted at what was being done. In this current time, in this current place, what we need to change is the police culture. Not the elimination of police.
I say this as an anarchist. You can't have the rapid "revolution" that other anarchists hope for so much. It's a process, and it's fucking slow. True anarchy will never happen in my life, and in the mean time we'll need cops.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 07, 2015, 02:57:21 AM
Um, us "ultraliberals" do want to fix the problem of police brutality. Have you seen any protests from the right on this matter? No! To them everyone killed is a criminal who deserved it. What you're suggesting is a radical restructuring of society without any evidence it will work.
You aren't talking science, so stop pretending that this discussion has anything to do with it! There's no way to demonstrate how people work in a given situation without experimenting, and that is all that I am asking people to consider doing. Nobody will ever find out whether or not an idea works without having the balls to depart from the status quo and experiment - it's what modern liberals are utter cowards on, and it's what keeps me rightward relative to their orientation, while still left of center.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 07, 2015, 12:32:59 PM
You aren't talking science, so stop pretending that this discussion has anything to do with it! There's no way to demonstrate how people work in a given situation without experimenting, and that is all that I am asking people to consider doing. Nobody will ever find out whether or not an idea works without having the balls to depart from the status quo and experiment - it's what modern liberals are utter cowards on, and it's what keeps me rightward relative to their orientation, while still left of center.
By all means let's experiment, but to do so so rapidly has been shown to be disastrous. For evidence I only need to cite Soviet Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, Nazi Germany, and others. Generally the restructuring you're suggesting leads to disaster, because the people aren't able to adjust. If you really want to restructure society, the best way to do so is gradually. You have to be so gradual that most people don't notice. There's a few hiccups, sure, but in the end
less people die. You may buy be seeing it, but were in the middle off a restructuring at this very moment.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 07, 2015, 03:53:04 PM
By all means let's experiment, but to do so so rapidly has been shown to be disastrous. For evidence I only need to cite Soviet Russia, Cambodia, North Korea, Nazi Germany, and others. Generally the restructuring you're suggesting leads to disaster, because the people aren't able to adjust. If you really want to restructure society, the best way to do so is gradually. You have to be so gradual that most people don't notice. There's a few hiccups, sure, but in the end less people die. You may buy be seeing it, but were in the middle off a restructuring at this very moment.
Get your facts straight - I never said it could happen overnight, only that a resolute paradigm shift is required now.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 07, 2015, 04:05:57 PM
Get your facts straight - I never said it could happen overnight, only that a resolute paradigm shift is required now.
And a resolute paradigm shift takes time, more time than you are willing to permit.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 07, 2015, 04:09:04 PM
And a resolute paradigm shift takes time, more time than you are willing to permit.
You were skewering me on facts? :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
How much time did I give the full transition to happen, IN FACT?
I said nothing other than that changes need to start now, and that they should move in a different direction than the status quo which obviously doesn't work.
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 07, 2015, 04:53:16 PM
You were skewering me on facts? :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
How much time did I give the full transition to happen, IN FACT?
I said nothing other than that changes need to start now, and that they should move in a different direction than the status quo which obviously doesn't work.
It
is starting now. Look around. Do you think there was this much national outrage against police abuse before? We get a new video and outage almost every month, hell, almost every week. Do you think that's all for nothing? We're having the discussion now, be patient.