Without sound logic and sound reason arriving at faith is an attempt in futility. I discovered such a thing as faith when my son had to go under the knife in an emergency and I never got to see the man who operated on him. I had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
I am here on this forum to learn how to apply reason and logic to arrive at faith.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Without sound logic and sound reason arriving at faith is an attempt in futility. I discovered such a thing as faith when my son had to go under the knife in an emergency and I never got to see the man who operated on him. I had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
I am here on this forum to learn how to apply reason and logic to arrive at faith.
Welcome. I hope you stay and maybe bring some logic to those, such as me, who like logic, but get lost in the formal rules of logic. I like to think that I applied logic to the world of spirituality and and came out an atheist. Interesting you came out the opposite.
One of the things I remember about going in for two of my heart stints, was that I gave my total belief that the surgeon who was working on me was good and that he was doing his best. And I had faith that the outcome would be positive. I had little to no fear after that. Even tho I was awake the entire time, (in a dulled way, since they do give you some drugs for that proceedure), I felt interest in what was going on rather than fear. God never entered the picture for me.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Without sound logic and sound reason arriving at faith is an attempt in futility. I discovered such a thing as faith when my son had to go under the knife in an emergency and I never got to see the man who operated on him. I had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
I am here on this forum to learn how to apply reason and logic to arrive at faith.
Welcome aboard thebesttrees! You had to put faith in the doctor, I put trust in my doctor when operating on my wife, son, and me several times. Faith assumes that trust has more power with God's intervention, but it isn't necessarily so as many studies have shown is no more than chance. But if it helps you deal with things, I'm all for it, and I'm sure most atheists would agree. Logic dictates that a belief in God and having faith is pragmatic, but it doesn't prove it is a fact, in fact it proves it isn't when it doesn't work most of the time to change an outcome, even if it makes it easier to cope and make one feel better. Take care!
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 09:40:44 AM
Welcome. I hope you stay and maybe bring some logic to those, such as me, who like logic, but get lost in the formal rules of logic. I like to think that I applied logic to the world of spirituality and and came out an atheist. Interesting you came out the opposite.
One of the things I remember about going in for two of my heart stints, was that I gave my total belief that the surgeon who was working on me was good and that he was doing his best. And I had faith that the outcome would be positive. I had little to no fear after that. Even tho I was awake the entire time, (in a dulled way, since they do give you some drugs for that proceedure), I felt interest in what was going on rather than fear. God never entered the picture for me.
Glad your surgeon did his job well so we can benefit from your wisdom now. Never mind God but you had faith in your surgeon and the desirable outcome, given some pre-surgery research that you hopefully had done.
Quote from: Solitary on September 01, 2015, 09:49:43 AM
Welcome aboard thebesttrees! You had to put faith in the doctor, I put trust in my doctor when operating on my wife, son, and me several times. Faith assumes that trust has more power with God's intervention, but it isn't necessarily so as many studies have shown is no more than chance. But if it helps you deal with things, I'm all for it, and I'm sure most atheists would agree. Logic dictates that a belief in God and having faith is pragmatic, but it doesn't prove it is a fact, in fact it proves it isn't when it doesn't work most of the time to change an outcome, even if it makes it easier to cope and make one feel better. Take care!
Thank you. Death does not scare me as birth should not scare the fetus as different as this world is from the world of the womb. So if the outcome of the surgery is death, so be it.
As for God, long time ago I studied the Euler's Identity. I arrived at it through mathematical manipulation and deduction. Once there, I marveled at it and stood in awe. Do I understand it? Absolutely not! Do I accept it as true? I have to although I do not understand it a bit. It is simply there.
Knowledge from the gaps in our knowledge with God is still ignorance. Mathematics is a tool used like a hammer, and can be misused also, especially when you hit your thumb. Logic does not reveal the truth accept when the facts are known. This is a common misconception about logic. And using rationalization is even worse. So how do we know what the facts are? The world is about data that our minds receive from our senses through our bodies, and then creates the world we experience. But that world and it's true nature are unknown. If it is just data, then that is reality, and everything we think in our minds is not, no matter how much we think it is. I can live with the unknown, but I think it is lazy to replace the unknown with imaginary magical creatures thinking that answers for the unknown, when it is still ignorance of the actual reality we can't know or understand with our ignorance. Secularizing is fun, but it can't reveal the truth without knowing what the facts are. It's called circular reasoning, we seek the truth, which are the facts, while thinking the facts are the truth, or the truth that is unknown is the facts.
I am seeking the truth, so I think there is real magic, so I create an invisible creature in my mind that has the answers for everything, and He is a fact then to me, sounds logical and reasonable until you realize your premise is not a fact, but a creation of your mind for an answer to the unknown and your ignorance. Speculation on the unknown is fun, but it is worthless without knowing what it actually is, accept to make us feel good, or even bad in some cases. Hang in there, it gets worse as you get older and you know more facts, and they present even more unknowns to deal with. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. It sounds like a riddle, but it isn't. It's more like me saying what I wrote is a lie, and if it is, then it is the truth. We just have to learn to live with paradoxes. :pai: I think my head just exploded.
Quote from: Solitary on September 01, 2015, 10:34:07 AM
Knowledge from the gaps in our knowledge with God is still ignorance. Mathematics is a tool used like a hammer, and can be misused also, especially when you hit your thumb. Logic does not reveal the truth accept when the facts are known. This is a common misconception about logic. And using rationalization is even worse. So how do we know what the facts are? The world is about data that our minds receive from our senses through our bodies, and then creates the world we experience. But that world and it's true nature are unknown. If it is just data, then that is reality, and everything we think in our minds is not, no matter how much we think it is. I can live with the unknown, but I think it is lazy to replace the unknown with imaginary magical creatures thinking that answers for the unknown, when it is still ignorance of the actual reality we can't know or understand with our ignorance. Secularizing is fun, but it can't reveal the truth without knowing what the facts are. It's called circular reasoning, we seek the truth, which are the facts, while thinking the facts are the truth, or the truth that is unknown is the facts.
I am seeking the truth, so I think there is real magic, so I create an invisible creature in my mind that has the answers for everything, and He is a fact then to me, sounds logical and reasonable until you realize your premise is not a fact, but a creation of your mind for an answer to the unknown and your ignorance. Speculation on the unknown is fun, but it is worthless without knowing what it actually is, accept to make us feel good, or even bad in some cases. Hang in there, it gets worse as you get older and you know more facts, and they present even more unknowns to deal with. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. It sounds like a riddle, but it isn't. It's more like me saying what I wrote is a lie, and if it is, then it is the truth. We just have to learn to live with paradoxes. :pai: I think my head just exploded.
I agree with everything you have said. How is that for exploding your head?! And check out Euler's Identity. It is not a trick or magic. it is real mathematics but alas it does not make sense. I gave time dilation a try and understood it but this cookie has been in my jar and an in that of many others and everyone's got his hand stuck trying to pull it out. Wikipedia it to see what I mean. If you are into math, you will love its sheer beauty! Ah! That's the word I was looking for. No wonder it is called the most beautiful formula in all of mathematics!
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:54:16 AM
Glad your surgeon did his job well so we can benefit from your wisdom now. Never mind God but you had faith in your surgeon and the desirable outcome, given some pre-surgery research that you hopefully had done.
Thanks--I don't know that I have much 'wisdom' to impart. I was referred to the last surgeon by my primary care dr., in whom I had complete trust (or faith, if you will, since on a personal level 'faith' simply means I have given up worrying about something because I have done all I can about it--just give up the worrying and know that all will be well)
I don't have faith in doctors. I make some assumptions about their knowledge and competence, but I know full well that that these assumptions can be in error. I let them do their job and hope. It's probably just semantics, but I don't have anything I would define as faith, and if I ever use the word it's more in the context of an exaggerated assumption. I don't really mean it.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2015, 11:08:54 AM
I don't have faith in doctors. I make some assumptions about their knowledge and competence, but I know full well that that these assumptions can be in error. I let them do their job and hope. It's probably just semantics, but I don't have anything I would define as faith, and if I ever use the word it's more in the context of an exaggerated assumption. I don't really mean it.
I hear what you say. I guess I'll just plead my use of faith as a special case in which I craft the meaning of that word for me only. It is a single word that represents the process I go thu in situations such as this--usually medical. I use it to control my natural fear. And so I use it to transfer all the trust I can into the surgical team that is working on me. Faith is blind--and so is the trust I bestow on that team--after I've done the work to give them that trust. It is a fear control mechanism. Maybe I should just use the work 'trust'--nothing divine about that.
I have mucho experience with doctors from having 3 kids and a wife with MS who has, count em' 3 different doctors; not to mention my own. I like my doctor because every time I see him does a complete review of meds and a thorough exam.
We nearly lost our first child because the doctor was an idiot referred to us by the mother in law. Dumped him and later, her. Doctors are mixed bag, tbh.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 11:28:04 AM
I hear what you say. I guess I'll just plead my use of faith as a special case in which I craft the meaning of that word for me only. It is a single word that represents the process I go thu in situations such as this--usually medical. I use it to control my natural fear. And so I use it to transfer all the trust I can into the surgical team that is working on me. Faith is blind--and so is the trust I bestow on that team--after I've done the work to give them that trust. It is a fear control mechanism. Maybe I should just use the work 'trust'--nothing divine about that.
Faith (trust) is accepting the "possibility" without considering the "probability".
In a way, you're right, faith is a word largely commandeered by the religious. I had an agnostic professor of a religious studies class I took in college who asserted that everyone believed in something. I initially disagreed, and he asked me if I drove to school that day, and if I had, when I applied pressure to my brake lines, did I have faith that my car would stop? I tried arguing over the semantics of the point he was trying to make, but he pointed out that I was just a person who preferred to put faith in things that could be demonstrated to be reliable. The key being that it was reliable, but not necessarily infallible.
Brakes on a car can fail. You expect that they won't though.
Just like doctors can botch surgeries. You put faith in a surgeon based on a reasonable presumption that he or she has attended schooling to learn that trade, and has the necessary experience to do it more successfully than you would say, the mechanic who works on your brakes.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 11:34:00 AM
Faith (trust) is accepting the "possibility" without considering the "probability".
Maybe. Faith when used in a religious way is blind acceptance without any facts to support that belief. When I used it in a purely personal way, I was referring to a process that produced total acceptance of a situation--a situation that I had done all the prep for that I could do and was a way to control the fear that was present in me. The more I think about it, the more I think trust or total trust, would work better, since it is not really blind. I have examined the facts and have decided that this is what would be best for me; so let's do it! So, no faith here, but total trust.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 01, 2015, 11:46:52 AM
In a way, you're right, faith is a word largely commandeered by the religious. I had an agnostic professor of a religious studies class I took in college who asserted that everyone believed in something. I initially disagreed, and he asked me if I drove to school that day, and if I had, when I applied pressure to my brake lines, did I have faith that my car would stop? I tried arguing over the semantics of the point he was trying to make, but he pointed out that I was just a person who preferred to put faith in things that could be demonstrated to be reliable. The key being that it was reliable, but not necessarily infallible.
Brakes on a car can fail. You expect that they won't though.
Just like doctors can botch surgeries. You put faith in a surgeon based on a reasonable presumption that he or she has attended schooling to learn that trade, and has the necessary experience to do it more successfully than you would say, the mechanic who works on your brakes.
I think you were right when taking that course. I would say you have an expectation that your brakes will work; but you know that brakes can and do fail. So, if your brakes failed you may be surprised but not in disbelief. I understand faith used in a religious sense, to be total and blind. There does not need to be any demonstration of anything for a religious person to have faith. The theist will tell me that I believe the sun will rise every day. I assert that I don't believe that it will, but I expect that it will. Why, because my expectation has been demonstrated to be so in the past. Belief and faith do not need those demonstrations to be fed. Of course, if I were taking that class, I'd use whatever word the prof wanted me to. :))
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
Maybe. Faith when used in a religious way is blind acceptance without any facts to support that belief. When I used it in a purely personal way, I was referring to a process that produced total acceptance of a situation--a situation that I had done all the prep for that I could do and was a way to control the fear that was present in me. The more I think about it, the more I think trust or total trust, would work better, since it is not really blind. I have examined the facts and have decided that this is what would be best for me; so let's do it! So, no faith here, but total trust.
Faith in a religious way (as religious way is commonly perceived) only allows for certainty. To eliminate the "religious" notion, I used "possibility" instead of certainty. I hope that helps. And i am for possibility by the way!
I don't think I would have much faith in a doctor that refused to meet me in person, with certificates that were full of anomalies. Then if I were to question this, the doctor then threatened me with everlasting pain, that I must admit has forced me to look elsewhere.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 11:56:57 AM
I think you were right when taking that course.
I conceded to agree that everyone does believe in something. I simply choose to believe in science, which explains how my brakes work and how surgery is able to be successful.
While medicine is more a black art than auto mechanics ... at least medicine is better than it was 50 years ago ;-)
I have also been under the knife several times. Not had a problem with it myself ... since I had little post-operative consequences.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 11:56:57 AM
I understand faith used in a religious sense, to be total and blind. There does not need to be any demonstration of anything for a religious person to have faith. The theist will tell me that I believe the sun will rise every day.
This is exactly what I was getting at. Faith requires no evidence, no statistical probability. I expect the sun to rise, based on my understanding of the Earth's rotation, also from experience. It's based on something that is understood and it has a good track record. It's come up every day for 13.7 billion years.
Also, believing something is not the same thing as having faith. It could be, but most of the time it's something else.
Thebesttrees - If you are looking for solace or courage in the face of medical crisis ... then you need more EQ, not more IQ. IQ can only help you leverage EQ (provide probable backing). So what do you know about EQ? The heart knows of reasons that the head knoweth not. If you think that EQ is woo woo ... then you need to turn down your rationalizing a notch or two ... and give your heart a chance.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2015, 06:02:38 PM
This is exactly what I was getting at. Faith requires no evidence, no statistical probability. I expect the sun to rise, based on my understanding of the Earth's rotation, also from experience. It's based on something that is understood and it has a good track record. It's come up every day for 13.7 billion years.
Also, believing something is not the same thing as having faith. It could be, but most of the time it's something else.
I think we are now in total agreement.
Quote from: SGOS on September 01, 2015, 06:02:38 PM
Also, believing something is not the same thing as having faith. It could be, but most of the time it's something else.
I generally agree. I think it's a word that has a gray area based on euphemisms and idioms. If I tell someone to "have faith in me," I think most people take that to mean they should believe I can accomplish something, not that I am a supernatural being.
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 01, 2015, 07:05:31 PM
I generally agree. I think it's a word that has a gray area based on euphemisms and idioms. If I tell someone to "have faith in me," I think most people take that to mean they should believe I can accomplish something, not that I am a supernatural being.
Aww, comeon, TomFoolery, it would be easy to think you have supernatural powers. :))
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Without sound logic and sound reason arriving at faith is an attempt in futility. I discovered such a thing as faith when my son had to go under the knife in an emergency and I never got to see the man who operated on him. I had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
I am here on this forum to learn how to apply reason and logic to arrive at faith.
Difference between a surgeon and a god, is that a surgeon is a tangible being; a god not so much.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 01, 2015, 07:25:07 PM
Aww, comeon, TomFoolery, it would be easy to think you have supernatural powers. :))
I keep them sheltered behind my bitchy resting face, so as to avoid people begging me for good deeds.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:31:49 AM
Without sound logic and sound reason arriving at faith is an attempt in futility. I discovered such a thing as faith when my son had to go under the knife in an emergency and I never got to see the man who operated on him. I had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
I am here on this forum to learn how to apply reason and logic to arrive at faith.
Logical factors for "faith" in a doctor:
1. Doctor's qualifications and licensing
2. Doctor clears background research
3. Doctor's recent success rate
4. Doctor's demonstrated communication skills after an extended conversation
***This is critical, because doctors who don't communicate well often kill their patients!
Your doctor would usually pass all of the above prior to earning your "faith", although the word "confidence" is more appropriate. "Faith" is defined by the religious as believing in things unseen, and it's their word, they invented it. If you did not meet your son's doctor, then at least you can know somebody did who has reasonably good confidence in him.
I wish you and your son the best, hang in there!
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 01, 2015, 07:38:31 PM
I keep them sheltered behind my bitchy resting face, so as to avoid people begging me for good deeds.
I can understand that. :)
Quote from: TomFoolery on September 01, 2015, 07:05:31 PM
I generally agree. I think it's a word that has a gray area based on euphemisms and idioms. If I tell someone to "have faith in me," I think most people take that to mean they should believe I can accomplish something, not that I am a supernatural being.
It's a fertile field for equivocation, and that's the fallacy the theists milk when they say, "But you believe/have faith in something."
Yeah OK, but "I have faith that sun will rise," isn't even in the same ball park as "I have faith in Jesus." It's equating two different things on the basis of a word with multiple meanings.
That is why in English Christian hymns ... Son is conflated with sun.
Quote from: Sal1981 on September 01, 2015, 07:26:35 PM
Difference between a surgeon and a god, is that a surgeon is a tangible being; a god not so much.
Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!
Quote from: Baruch on September 01, 2015, 09:36:09 PM
That is why in English Christian hymns ... Son is conflated with sun.
Even broader and from the Bible itself:
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 02, 2015, 12:47:50 AM
Even broader and from the Bible itself:
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Yes, that is from the bible. But how do we know that that is from his mouth and put into it with the pen (well, quill, really) of some unknown author? And just because it is in the bible, why does that give whatever it is any authority or authenticity?
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 02, 2015, 01:35:49 AM
Yes, that is from the bible. But how do we know that that is from his mouth and put into it with the pen (well, quill, really) of some unknown author? And just because it is in the bible, why does that give whatever it is any authority or authenticity?
Great questions!
More info ... people 2000 years ago, didn't think like modern people. For them, light goes from the eyes to the object being viewed ... it has to do with consciousness, not physics. There was no modern optics until an Arab in Egypt 1000 years later invented it. So Jesus as Logos ... which means mind/reason not just "word" (as in letters on a page, sheesh ... but like "name", it means "power") is the perfect Platonic universal source of consciousness, and therefore in the thought of that time, the light of the world. It wasn't that he had lit himself up like a suicidal Buddhist monk. This is why the NT speaks of internal light (which is clearly not solar). To people then, the Sun was a pagan god, not a thermonuclear reaction .. or at best the chariot driven by the god, Helios.
In Genesis, the light appears before the sun and moon ... it is the inner light of consciousness. And the hymn metaphor only works in English, in Greek son=uios and sun=helios. In Greek, most masculine nouns end in -ios ... so it isn't considered rhyming ... but poetry was originally used, in Greek, to make incantations more potent.
Mike CL ... but authority is a trick question. Nothing and nobody has any authority, except the "I", the ego of each person. We can delegate this authority to another (and children often do, for practical reasons), but no adult has to. If you want to delegate authority to physics, that is fine as an impersonal authority ... that will punish you if you jump off a building.
Thebesttrees ... yes, tangibility is less than it appears, but not to materialists.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 02, 2015, 12:41:52 AM
Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!
It is, but most of it is due to license taken with word meanings.
A surgeon is tangible. You can punch him in the eye, and your knuckles will experience a tactile sensation.
You can "feel" the presence of god, but "feel" here does not imply tangibility or a tactile sensation. The person that implies this, is probably lying, because although he claims to feel god, not everyone else can.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 02, 2015, 01:39:01 AM
Great questions!
Thanks. Do you have any great answers??? :)
Quote from: Baruch on September 02, 2015, 07:05:37 AM
Mike CL ... but authority is a trick question. Nothing and nobody has any authority, except the "I", the ego of each person. We can delegate this authority to another (and children often do, for practical reasons), but no adult has to. If you want to delegate authority to physics, that is fine as an impersonal authority ... that will punish you if you jump off a building.
Thebesttrees ... yes, tangibility is less than it appears, but not to materialists.
Baruch, no, not a trick question. I was trying to keep the jargon in a theists realm. I am interested in what trees thinks of that concept, since he clearly gives the bible some weight in his life. I don't give it any authority in any sense of the word. But I already know why I think that--I don't know why trees does.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 02, 2015, 12:41:52 AM
Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!
All roads are slippery with endless torrents of bullshit raining down on them, just saying.
Best Formula For Navigating Slippery Roads:What is tangible is probably real, and what isn't was probably imagineered by one suffering from delusions, or by a con artist. You may as well trust your own senses when others can offer no tangible and empirical proof that they can see things which you don't. If somebody claims they or somebody else has seen something which they could only tell you about and not show you without drugs, psychological trickery, or other sleight-of-hand tactics, then you need not consider it any further. For example, maybe I would claim that I ride all over the world on my dragon, moving in close enough to watch what every living "soul" does on this earth. If I began to speak of what you do which you thought nobody else knew of other than a few online sites which you visit, and nobody ever sighted my dragon anywhere, then am I really a god who rides a dragon or a cyber-criminal? Then I explain that I and my dragon are invisible when I ride it, and that should fix it for you, right? Bonus points for anybody who asks what sort of decent person spies on people by any means when they can, this is unfortunately all too rare.
My senses aren't perfect, but with glasses on I see what others see, and with 800 million years of natural selection behind them and mushrooming technology to aid this, I worry less of the said imperceptibles which people claim knowledge of than the fact that such people get others to follow them.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 02, 2015, 08:46:45 AM
Baruch, no, not a trick question. I was trying to keep the jargon in a theists realm. I am interested in what trees thinks of that concept, since he clearly gives the bible some weight in his life. I don't give it any authority in any sense of the word. But I already know why I think that--I don't know why trees does.
Settling down here in this forum takes time for me. In the process, as a first step I would like to find common grounds upon which we can build some meaningful discussions.
I DO NOT believe in the same god that you DO NOT believe in assuming I have understood to a good degree of certainty, what god it is that you do not believe in from the discussions we have had so far.
And lastly in an operating room, while working on a patient dying of cardiac arrest, the surgeon should refuse to answer his wife's phone call on why he had forgotten to put gas in her car.
Thebesttrees ... take your time to think and articulate.
Meanwhile, no ... a physician or nurse should not multitask. This is a known evil in medical situations, even though interns are often worked to death ... to find their breaking point I suppose. I certainly hope there were no distractions for those responding to the Code Blue at the clinic this morning, where I work.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 02, 2015, 12:41:20 PM
Settling down here in this forum takes time for me. In the process, as a first step I would like to find common grounds upon which we can build some meaningful discussions.
I DO NOT believe in the same god that you DO NOT believe in assuming I have understood to a good degree of certainty, what god it is that you do not believe in from the discussions we have had so far.
And lastly in an operating room, while working on a patient dying of cardiac arrest, the surgeon should refuse to answer his wife's phone call on why he had forgotten to put gas in her car.
Hmmm...................well, uhh....this is one of the most different non-answers I've ever received. So, with that in mind...................
I do not believe in any god/gods (except those dedicated to ice cream and the New York Yankees). So, if you believe in a god, I don't. Or even if you don't believe in a god, I don't either. You seem to believe Jesus was a person since you quoted something written by an unknown author saying he heard him say what you quoted him saying. I think Jesus was a myth and not a man. So, I don't put much store in quotes from cartoon characters--not Pecos Bill, not Paul Bunyan, Not Yosemite Sam--not Jesus. So, it boils down to not much common ground here. And your beliefs are sketchy, at best. Common ground--I like ice cream and the New York Yankees--do you?
As for the surgeon not answering his wife's call--I guess we could agree on that. But the surgeon must be held accountable for the lack of gas, for his wife was to be the assistant surgeon on that patient dying of cardiac arrest; actually, he should be arrested for allowing the arrest to occur in the first place, since the team was one surgeon short!
Common ground is a good place to be, but very hard to get to when not all parties are forthcoming with any info to allow for the search of that common ground. So far, all I hear is the very loud clapping of one hand!
One hand clapping ... easy ... snap of the fingers ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 02, 2015, 01:02:21 PM
One hand clapping ... easy ... snap of the fingers ;-)
One hand clapping face - even better! :razz:
Do you think the guy that first posed the question, "What is the sound of one hand clapping," was actually being serious? I mean really! People have sat around pondering this like it's supposed to lead to some greater truth when it's just a simple nonsense question.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 02, 2015, 12:59:42 PM
Hmmm...................well, uhh....this is one of the most different non-answers I've ever received. So, with that in mind...................
I do not believe in any god/gods (except those dedicated to ice cream and the New York Yankees). So, if you believe in a god, I don't. Or even if you don't believe in a god, I don't either. You seem to believe Jesus was a person since you quoted something written by an unknown author saying he heard him say what you quoted him saying. I think Jesus was a myth and not a man. So, I don't put much store in quotes from cartoon characters--not Pecos Bill, not Paul Bunyan, Not Yosemite Sam--not Jesus. So, it boils down to not much common ground here. And your beliefs are sketchy, at best. Common ground--I like ice cream and the New York Yankees--do you?
As for the surgeon not answering his wife's call--I guess we could agree on that. But the surgeon must be held accountable for the lack of gas, for his wife was to be the assistant surgeon on that patient dying of cardiac arrest; actually, he should be arrested for allowing the arrest to occur in the first place, since the team was one surgeon short!
Common ground is a good place to be, but very hard to get to when not all parties are forthcoming with any info to allow for the search of that common ground. So far, all I hear is the very loud clapping of one hand!
My response, especially the third part (surgeon and all), is commensurate with your questions and it was articulated carefully. You need to look at the response in the context of your questions.
Quote from: Baruch on September 02, 2015, 12:53:48 PM
Thebesttrees ... take your time to think and articulate.
Meanwhile, no ... a physician or nurse should not multitask. This is a known evil in medical situations, even though interns are often worked to death ... to find their breaking point I suppose. I certainly hope there were no distractions for those responding to the Code Blue at the clinic this morning, where I work.
My story of the surgeon is to be viewed in the context of the questions raised by Mike CL.
Quote from: SGOS on September 02, 2015, 09:02:30 PM
Do you think the guy that first posed the question, "What is the sound of one hand clapping," was actually being serious? I mean really! People have sat around pondering this like it's supposed to lead to some greater truth when it's just a simple nonsense question.
I think I've heard it before as a rhetorical question, which would be of great utility for those whose stock in trade rely on rhetoric over fact (e.g. motivational speech, group action rallies). It's a great tool for motivating the unified "body of Christ" to action in protest against gays and abortion doctors, often leading to criminal harassment and murder.
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 09:31:49 AMI had to put my faith in someone that I did not even know and here he was with my son's life in his hands!
Unless you live out in the sticks in an almost entirely self-sufficient lifestyle, relying on others is pretty much a day-to-day norm:
* riding as a passenger on a train, bus, plane (or even someone else's car)
* taking any sort of medication
* eating anything prepared by someone else (not poisoned, undercooked, spoiled, etc)
* living in a building (building is up to code and won't collapse)
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 03, 2015, 02:11:25 AM
My response, especially the third part (surgeon and all), is commensurate with your questions and it was articulated carefully. You need to look at the response in the context of your questions.
I am sure your answer is commensurate with something. But it sure is not to establish any type of communication. Your goal, it would seem, is to play some type of word game rather than trying to find 'common ground'. I do enjoy word games, like scrabble or code words, but in a different forum than this one. So, play your clever words games, get you little chuckles; if and when you would like to engage in a conversation let me know and I'll chime in.
For those who are curious, this is what a theorem in Hilbert Space theory looks like ...
⊢ ((A ∈ â,,, ∧ B ∈ â,,‹ ∧ C ∈ â,,‹ ) â†' (B ·ih (A ·h C)) = ((∗ ‘A) · (B ·ih C)))
Doesn't look like anything I see here ... does it?
Quote from: thebesttrees on September 01, 2015, 10:50:18 AM
I agree with everything you have said. How is that for exploding your head?! And check out Euler's Identity. It is not a trick or magic. it is real mathematics but alas it does not make sense.
Euler's identity is just several definitions put together: (1) i 2 =-1, (2) e ix = cos x + i sinx. Put it togerther with x = π, you get Euler's identity, e iπ +1 = 0 [/font]
Per Wikipedia ... "How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" is answered with "minus e to the power of iPi".