I am an atheist, I come from a family of atheists, and as much as I may try to put myself into others shoes, it is hard for me to see the world in any other way. So I search for understanding as I have no measure to work out what my own view is doing for me. Problem is though reading the web it is easy to find material about why this or that maybe wrong, but little positively written about why I have made this choice and why I feel good about it. If we look at this forum there is loads about how other views are silly, but much much less about why this view could be right.
So were you created an atheist like me, did you chose or was it thrust on you? Is having this general view a pleasure or a burden? what do you see through your eyes.
I am an equal opportunities employer so thiests may join in, but remember 'god came to me' is going to be a meaningless statement to me. Oh and unlike some here I have a reasonable attention span so i will find nothing wrong with a longish post if that is how you wish to express yourself.
I find the web can be quite negative, blokeish; the ways conversations play out in forums tend to be about criticising this or that about another group. With that in mind what I am asking here is for people to do a fairly brave thing and be open about themselves as such as the op I will ask others to respect that bravery and to not criticize others on this thread. If you cant say something positive about posters on this thread don't say it at all.
I will appreciate your assistance.
I am an atheist too but that is not the sum of all of my parts. Though what is is not important
because I am just passing through. None of it matters in the end. Nothing does. The Universe
does not care about me or you. The Universe does not even care about itself. We as a species
can have a very inflated sense of our own relevance in the grand scheme of things. But death
invalidates all that. Last year I made my peace with it and so I am now as free as can be part
from actually being dead that is. Then I will be completely free. As will you and everyone else
also. No one has ever complained about death. But yet all of us complain about life. Go figure
I was born into the Mormon religion. did not go on a mission but joined the Navy. Worked at several "career" jobs up to 1975. Got married in the LDS temple. In 1990 my High Priest brother died of liver failure. I was having issues with Mormonism because I am a critical thinker, which is a no no in religion. I made a death bed promise (literally) to my brother that I would seek out the truth and either become a good Mormon or leave the church. Left the LDS church in 1992 with family. Submitted letter of resignation but was excommunicated for reading "anti Mormon literature"
Became a Christian because at the time it was the only support group available. The internet forums of today did not exist then. Was a Christian for many years but discovered xtianity was just the same shit in a different bag. By turns went through agnosticism, deism, studied other religions and about 7 years ago essentially gave up on religion. Wound up here like 6 years ago, identifying as an atheist. I now identify as a secular humanist.
I spend a lot of time on ex-Mormon forums because Mormonism is a cult, and leaving it is very difficult; less so now by orders of magnitude than when I left, but still difficult. If you want to see what level of angst can occur when leaving a cult, spend some time on
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon
and you'll get the idea. We are talking gay teenagers kicked out of their houses, families literally destroyed by diehard believing Mormons siding with their faith against family members.
Quote from: jonb on August 27, 2015, 06:33:18 AM
So were you created an atheist like me, did you chose or was it thrust on you? Is having this general view a pleasure or a burden? what do you see through your eyes.
I tend to doubt that anyone ever really choose what they believe on anything, and when one chooses religious ideas over reason, they only pretend to believe, or trick themselves into thinking they believe it. So says I after a long, strange trip beginning with a Catholic baptism. I did not do the 7-year confirmation in that church because my parents rebelled against their own oppressive 1950's Catholic schooled upbringing, and began to wander between varied Protestant sects. We got to see how several varied Protestant sects worship, but my parents didn't actually attend the church of the dour, bible-thumping and utterly cruel Baptists who ran the school which I had to attend. They chose that alternative because it wasn't Catholic, and they were sure the public schools were worse! So I didn't really belong in any of the sectarian environments which I was exposed to, but I took a lot of notes on the conflicting ideas between them all. When such ideas are taught, they aren't offered optionally, you are supposed to accept all that is taught, and the bible interpretations as they are preached, otherwise your soul may be in mortal danger! So I knew my soul was in mortal danger: the dour Baptists were saying all Catholics would burn in hell, as said the Catholics in my extended family and town of the Protestants. The dour Baptists essentially believed that every thing you could possible do which is enjoyable is sin, while on Sundays my parents took me to a charismatic church where everyone got out of their pews and danced! The Catholics were hung up on their "sacraments", church attendance, and being a good little robot as the key to avoiding Satan's Big Eternal Barbeque. The Protestants insisted I have a "choice", that I could choose to believe in the unbelievable, and that I'd better make the right choice or else - now how's that for making an offer you cannot refuse?
The later years of my school career were in secular schools, but in my podunk upstate town I was exposed to only a few atheists, and they failed to make much of a positive impression. In the 1980's there were few atheists anywhere in the US, led largely by the not-so-charismatic Madeleine O'Hair, and much worse the twisted and anti-social nonsense of Ayn Rand. So I had to avoid the conversation for a couple more decades until I discovered writers such as Richard Dawkins, and discussions online.
The more I learned about secular, scientific philosophy, humanism, and atheism, the more I realized that I did not need to feel bad about avoiding churches, where nothing they said there made good sense anyway. I had always understood anyway that living forever in a place so nebulously described (although mostly described as mind-numbing boredom) as the Christian Heaven, where each day would be spend kissing up to its king was nothing I'd care too much about missing out on, and once I could stop allowing the unfalsifiable threat of hellfire to haunt my sleep, I felt truly free for the first time in my life! As for prayer, I had known since I was a child that Yahweh either paid little heed to or didn't hear my prayers at all, but now I don't worry about some bigger-than-humanity bully, or his alter-ego Satan getting in the way of my aspirations and denying my life's needs. Goddamn, it's good to be free!
I simply could never have made a choice to believe any unfalsifiable religious doctrine, because when you understand that question of falsifiability any such doctrine is impossible to believe. Likewise, when you go looking for honest, falsifiable answers, you find them, and you cannot falsify them, then again what you believe isn't a choice at all. This is also why I have so little patience for those who come around spouting any sort of woo, because this speaks only of profound contempt for any honest philosophical discourse. You have to work hard enough to deceive yourself on woo, and you're that much less honest to go disturbing other people with such lies! It's no wonder that so many of the Josh Duggars of this world work in the sales profession! When I escaped my imprisonment at Camp Woo, it was with too much pain and damage to stand idly by when somebody comes around trying to lure those who are seeking better answers into their mental bondage.
I'm anti giant spiders ..
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q490/atheola/IMG_20150825_175127.jpg)
Thank you folks you have reminded me of things which are important to me, but I don't often think about.
surreptitious57
I like that.
I am reminded of the Groucho joke over the woman with X amount of kids
'I like a cigar but I take it out of my mouth once in a while'
Why would anyone want something to go on eternally? It is either gluttony of the worst sort or not understanding the concept of eternal. Eternal joy would be pointless. I like the thought that I might even in a little way make a few people happy to have met me for a while, which means I could create more meaning with a little bit of accidental existence than any sky daddy could through force and punishment impose.
And oh yes the freedom.
stromboli
My path has been so easy when compared with yours, and what is easily gained is often valued less than that which is fought for. Institutional religion in England and I think the whole of Britain does not really expect belief just nominal adherence. Sit in the back of a church once a month and your children get to go to a church of England or catholic school which is better financed and they come out with better qualifications and might get better jobs. This might seem a small price to pay, but it is also how Islam works you don't have to believe just don't say anything against it, pretend and you are left alone. Now if you look at pictures of Islamic cities fifty years ago with girls in short skirts sitting on the back of vespas and look at those same cities now, we can see just by adhering to that little white lie that when the religion feels itself powerful enough how that white lie is used.
So that post of yours means a lot it reminds me how precious that gift that came easily to me really is.
peacewithoutgod
In my view such a good post, I think sometimes to an undecided observer we atheists can appear a little hard, but if they see what has driven us, I think most of them would have to agree as a bunch we are a very moderate group.
AllPurposeAtheist
Last time I took my kids to London zoo I had a bird eating spider walk up my arm. I know I am a bit odd but I found it to be quite cute. The zoo keeper told me that it was about as big as an animal with an external skeleton could be and was actually quite fragile.
Though having said that I am not sure I would decorate a parasol with one, especially in such a nice looking garden.
It's actually just an orb spider about an inch across. It spun its web in the doorway and I took the picture. The actual distance from the umbrella was about 10 feet, but it looks much larger. Pretty slick though, eh?
Slick, I love it and that garden looks great, is that Russian vine in flower, and those conifers make a great backdrop. Looks like the perfect place to enjoy a warm long summer evening.
Not sure what that stuff is, but it's my dad's tiny back yard, usually to hot in the summer months. The blooms only last about 2-3 weeks tops.. We have what's called confederate jasmine here which can quite literally overgrow a house if not kept in check. We have a purgela out back completely covered with it to the point that it usually doesn't even get wet under it when it rains. It's fabulous in the spring when it blooms ..
My path started non-religious, with my father irreligious and my mother faintly pietist. Got to attend a church several times, and found it fascinating. I am easily fascinated ... and I wasn't pushed into anything. My curiosity continued to increase all thru HS when I got more interested in Buddhism and other non-Abrahamic systems ... and I was associating with Freemason youth, which is a bit religion like. Because of college I lost interest for awhile after having a bit of a charismatic breakdown when I was 18. Continued to have some curiosity after college until I married. My wife was heavily into religion, and I joined in with her. Eventually we developed apart, with my increasing interest in Jewish teachings. After my marriage ended, I had a lot more time on my hands, and my personal development took off like a rocket ... not so much TV watching anymore. And I developed a full fledged interest in Comparative Religion as anthropology and psychology. Only recently have I come to an adequate, to me, metaphysical position that supports theism ... though such a theism is weak soup compared to the more social or charismatic forms.
I grew up in a neutral environment when it came to religion/god. My parents were not church goers. But, for awhile, my mother went to church with us kids when we indicated we wanted to go. That lasted about a year; that sated my curiosity. I was faintly disdainful of church goers and ministers thru HS and into college. In college I became much more interested in history and philosophy, but did not delve into the philosophy part of it much. As I reach middle age, I became more interested in religion. When I divorced, (after 22 yrs) I realized I knew what I did not want, so embarked upon a quest to find out what I wanted. I wanted a good partner--so I had to define what that was. And I made a serious attempt at building my spiritual side. Tried like hell to become a christian. Mainline christian was simply too fantastical to believe in. But I settled upon Unity and its centering around the 'christ consciousness within each of us' and I like how that could be applied to my life. So, I was in that church for 8/10 yrs. But I was never a believer in a real jesus, and began a much deeper search for the real Jesus. I learned that he is indeed, mythical. Anyway, thu that process of discovery, I've finally come to the conclusion that there is no god nor was there a real Jesus.
Lucky bastards. I had to dump a butt load of religious weight to get to my present self.
I remember when i was young and we were at mass one sunday i said to mum, why do we have to kneel, my knees are getting sore, she said shhhhh, remember where you are....
We had to go every week me and my brothers when younger, and everytime i was there all i could think about was getting home and going out to play in the back court wi my pals.
I think i always knew it was nonsense, and when aged about 12/13 i said to mum that i didnt want to go back , and she said ok, was a happy day for me.
In my teenage years i hated god,religion, and the people who believed in it, but as i got older i mellowed a lot.
Nowadays i would say i pity them rather than hate them and as long as nobody gets in my face about religion i mostly ignore them......
Quote from: Green Bottle on August 28, 2015, 12:29:20 PM
I remember when i was young and we were at mass one sunday i said to mum, why do we have to kneel, my knees are getting sore, she said shhhhh, remember where you are....
We had to go every week me and my brothers when younger, and everytime i was there all i could think about was getting home and going out to play in the back court wi my pals.
I think i always knew it was nonsense, and when aged about 12/13 i said to mum that i didnt want to go back , and she said ok, was a happy day for me.
In my teenage years i hated god,religion, and the people who believed in it, but as i got older i mellowed a lot.
Nowadays i would say i pity them rather than hate them and as long as nobody gets in my face about religion i mostly ignore them......
Just read that Scotland is now 50% atheist. Lucky you.
Welcome aboard jonb! I was bought up in a family of two older sisters that were very cruel and dressed me up in their old clothes. My mother was a Southern Methodist who's father liked to burn crosses in the Darkies front yard, and belonged to the KKK, even though I was raised in an all black neighborhood in Nashville Tennessee until I was six. I had two dads that lived in the same house, they were both atheists. I rejected religion when I was six years old, so never was a believer in God. I prefer to call myself a freethinker. An atheist has many benefits from organized religion, freedom from religion and their dogma being number one. Freedom from fear of retribution from a God that can send you to hell for not kissing his ass. Freedom to seek answers in the actual world we live in, and not live in some magical God forsaken world, or future paradise for being a slave to religious BS. I love my freedom, and will fight anyone, or anybody, or any government, that tries to take it away. "Thank God Ole Mighty, free at last!" Freedom, along with the responsibility it requires, is the greatest thing we can have. It's a shame that so many people don't understand, that without responsibility, we are not all free.
Quote from: stromboli on August 28, 2015, 01:13:35 PM
Just read that Scotland is now 50% atheist. Lucky you.
Cheers Stromboli, long may it continue...
Baruch
Your post it seems to me points to an unusual path. I wonder is your relationship to gawd more a consequence of seeking personal ethics than what seems to be the usual theist position that a relationship to gawd is central and their ethics flow from that?
Mike Cl
You make me think about conformity.
I can understand people throwing themselves into something they don't fully understand. Theology like any other subject means we have to learn about it to understand it and that takes some level of commitment. I can see you joining a church and wanting to know more and picking away at it. The thing I don't really understand is that although most religions try to limit that examination why so many religious people don't pick away at their dogmas and expose the problems with them, but seem content to base their whole lives around often quite a superficial understanding. Unless of course their driving force is not to get at the truth, but just to find something they can conform to and feel safe within. Which is why I quite like atheism being definined as not being gawdist because it is then hard to impose any conformity onto it.
Green Bottle
I think in Britain that is the common experience, and the most common traditional British attitude to religion. Although I have heard, more people in Scotland will identify with religion when Celtic/Rangers were playing each other.
Quote from: Solitary on August 28, 2015, 01:37:50 PM
Freedom, along with the responsibility it requires, is the greatest thing we can have.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/8vlUOHucLloMU/giphy.gif)
Right on brother I see the light!
Oh and I identify with the horror of your childhood I had three older sisters!
Quote from: jonb on August 29, 2015, 08:35:12 AM
Mike Cl
You make me think about conformity.
I can understand people throwing themselves into something they don't fully understand. Theology like any other subject means we have to learn about it to understand it and that takes some level of commitment. I can see you joining a church and wanting to know more and picking away at it. The thing I don't really understand is that although most religions try to limit that examination why so many religious people don't pick away at their dogmas and expose the problems with them, but seem content to base their whole lives around often quite a superficial understanding. Unless of course their driving force is not to get at the truth, but just to find something they can conform to and feel safe within. Which is why I quite like atheism being definined as not being gawdist because it is then hard to impose any conformity onto it.
From what I've seen from the 'inside' of my church times, that is more a big social club than anything else. The minster is the club leader, and the tithe is the club dues and the ritual is what the club does. Socialization is the driving force for most who attend. They don't want to know if it makes any kind of factual sense. Unity is not a mainstream christian denomination, but even within that group, even tho they were more of the 'rebel' sort, they did not want to delve too much into the hard facts and background of christian history. I have always wanted to know 'why?' and 'how'--so, doomed to asking too many questions. And that lead to atheism for me.
Mike CL - you took the words right out of my mouth ... again! "just to find something they can conform to and feel safe within" is exactly what most people are doing inside any religion. They didn't go to it for intellectual excitement ;-)
jonb - sharp as a tack ... again! Yes, to me being Jewish with out concern for ethics ... is a pointless exercise. This is why I find modern Israel to be questionable. Some visitors to American synagogues call it ... ancestor worship. Again the social aspect (and usually within ethnicity) is paramount. Other ethnics in America have tried this in the past (Sons of Italy) ... but assimilation has washed it out. There are even rabbis in charge of congregations who are atheist ... but since it is taboo, they don't talk about it. My rabbi here, and the one I admire from the past ... are definitely theists who take religion seriously ... but if they neglected ethics .. then they are history.
Quote from Jonb
''Green Bottle
I think in Britain that is the common experience, and the most common traditional British attitude to religion. Although I have heard, more people in Scotland will identify with religion when Celtic/Rangers were playing each other.
Yes this is true, people who havent seen the inside of a church or chapel in years will all of a sudden go completely mental during an old firm game, but thankfully this isnt every old firm fan, and since rangers were relegated to the lowerdivisions it hasnt been the case for the last 3 years.
But they may be back in the top league next year and for all the idiots on both sides it will be business as usual, i think it is slowly getting better but it will always be there in this city.
It wasn't a choice for me, it is better to describe it is as a realization. I had wanted to believe, for the longest time , I think simply because it looked easier, but then one day I realized, If I want to believe then that means I don't believe.
Termin, that is such a nice way of explaining that realisation. It seems to me often the angriest people are those trying to fit into clothes which do not fit them.
(http://nowaygirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/550x327xtoes-never-gets-any-love-05-550x327.jpg.pagespeed.ic.rYdhf-Cozm.jpg)
Green bottle, I worked with an art director who came from your neck of the woods, and told stories of how he had to wear football shirts so that other kids did not notice he spent saturday in the library. And he swore blind he was asked if he was a protestant jew or a catholic one.
I must admit my family is that worst sort of English that has a little dream of someday being in Scotland, I see myself captaining a Clyde puffer and being a new Para Handy.
Quote ''
Green bottle, I worked with an art director who came from your neck of the woods, and told stories of how he had to wear football shirts so that other kids did not notice he spent saturday in the library. And he swore blind he was asked if he was a protestant jew or a catholic one.
I must admit my family is that worst sort of English that has a little dream of someday being in Scotland, I see myself captaining a Clyde puffer and being a new Para Handy.
being asked if ur a 'proddy jew or a 'cafflikk jew in glasgow isnt so strange if u understand the mindset of these people. for them , it's all about the religious identity,if you wear a celtic shirt in this city then ur automatically catholic and vice versa wi rangers, definitely a protestant. Even though there's people of all religions who follow both teams, and also atheist old firm fans, bet there's loads of them...
There's only one Para Handy....
One Para Haaaaaaaandy
There's only oone Paaaaaraaaaahaaaaandy :pidu: :dance: :shifty:
As GB knows I was in Scotland in the Holy Loch as our advanced base for subs. Lucky enough to spend time in Glasgow and some other locations. One of my "bucket list" dream trips would be a motorcycle tour from Dunfries to John O'Groats. I've also seen the Northern lights there. And the ladies are mighty fine as well.......
(http://www.scotlandshop.com/images/Product/large/37.jpg)
I won't say what I was thinking----my lips are sealed. :biggrin2:
Good don't open up the subject of Scottish sexuality.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00691/SNA2617Z_682_691178a.jpg)
Whoops, own goal. Sorry
rab c, brilliant....
https://youtu.be/U4yeqSgNxiE
GB now should we expose some parts of Ivor Cutler to the world? Is the world ready for the man who is for my money the Greatest Brit of us all?
https://youtu.be/Oxl2sWuKjJ0
(Unfortunately the sound is a bit quite on this one.)
https://youtu.be/-Nt7PWtgOPI
Quote from: jonb on August 30, 2015, 03:04:53 PM
Good don't open up the subject of Scottish sexuality.
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00691/SNA2617Z_682_691178a.jpg)
Whoops, own goal. Sorry
They fry everything in Scotland don't they ? :)
Nay, that be some boiled Haggis under there.
Loook what ye dun ... made me spit up my Drambuie, damn ye!