Quite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters!
However, is this a fair comparison?
(//http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/4/4b/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster_2.jpg)
If we examine fairies and 'flying spaghetti monsters' these are all contingent imaginary forms of existence. That is to say , unless someone specifically mentioned them, you would have absolutely no reason for believing in them. It is with this logic an atheist asserts 'God' too has absolutely no reason to be believed.
If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
So while the flying spaghetti monster does question organized religion, it does not at all effect the universal understanding that has occurred throughout history, whereby humans on every corner of the planet have always believed that what manifests around them must have been caused by a reality which transcends them, a reality which exists as a necessity of it's own existence.
Thus, it is only after we can understand the above, that someone may state "well fair enough, but you believe in Tom and Jerry to be this transcendent reality, I believe it is a flying spaghetti monster, so what makes you any more right than I am?"
What an atheist incorrectly does is labels the word 'God' to mean something totally imagined, rather than a universal and almost instinctive realisation of an underlying intelligence and transcendent cause of our universe.
Note, I have not tried to prove our universe must have a transcendent cause by argument. I have merely asserted on the surface, it seems as if our universe does have a transcendent cause, and societies all throughout history have held a belief in such a reality.
Here is my thesis on the absolute need of having an underlying intelligence, outside of time and space: http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress. ... existence/ (http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/the-unified-brief-arguments-for-gods-existence/)
And here is a supplement article which also is of importance, after refutations of my thesis.
http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress. ... -argument/ (http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/first-cause-argument/)
http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress. ... universes/ (http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/are-there-an-infinite-number-of-universes/)
http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress.com/ (http://scientificphilosopher.wordpress.com/)
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
Wrong.
Sorry about that, but not only is the idea of a creator NOT universal, it's not even all that common. Most religions have a creation myth that assumes the Earth always existed in some form or another, and that the big deal is the introduction of humans.
Seriously, you should at least do a cursory study of comparative religions before embarrassing yourself like this.
Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
Wrong.
Sorry about that, but not only is the idea of a creator NOT universal, it's not even all that common. Most religions have a creation myth that assumes the Earth always existed in some form or another, and that the big deal is the introduction of humans.
Seriously, you should at least do a cursory study of comparative religions before embarrassing yourself like this.
That is actually absolutely false. Almost all world religions have a belief that a transcendent reality created the universe. Even the greeks believed in their own transcendent realities.
Belief in some form of transcendent reality, irrespective of names or identity, has been universal with few exceptions.
That really is an abuse of 'most' religions, considering this is pretty common knowledge.
Furthermore, even if someone asserts that it was all 'God of the gaps'. This does not detract from the fact humans have always felt a need to ascribe what they saw around them to a higher, transcendent reality.
Although numbers are no indicator of truth, even today, the vast majority of people on earth believe in a transcendent reality , although it was greater the further we go back in the past.
So what!
Early peoples "on all corners of the planet" were ignorant and superstitious. They made up stories about stuff they couldn't understand.....stars, universe, cosmos. They believed their myths because that was all they knew. Their "beliefs" didn't make it true.
We all evolved from teeth. The tooth fairy told me and the universe is made of ground giant teeth or the universe around us is really the inside of a giant cavity which explains why it's so dark except the stars which are really nothing more than a little light entering the giant's mouth when he or she opens it..
Damned..do I have to explain everything?
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"What an atheist incorrectly does is labels the word 'God' to mean something totally imagined, rather than a universal and almost instinctive realisation of an underlying intelligence and transcendent cause of our universe.
And yet, that is exactly what is imagined. That our universe has some sort of "intelligent and transcendent cause" (aka God). And absent concrete evidence (you're going to have to do better than "Well, the Greeks believe in God. Sort of.") for its existence, this "realization" of yours - presumably instilled in childhood - remains on very shaky ground.
Quote from: "antediluvian"So what!
Early peoples "on all corners of the planet" were ignorant and superstitious. They made up stories about stuff they couldn't understand.....stars, universe, cosmos. They believed their myths because that was all they knew. Their "beliefs" didn't make it true.
You obviously haven't read enough books about Santa.. It's in books so it must be true.. Then again so is Bugs Bunny the smart ass talking rabbit with a Brooklyn accent.. :roll:
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Quote from: "antediluvian"So what!
Early peoples "on all corners of the planet" were ignorant and superstitious. They made up stories about stuff they couldn't understand.....stars, universe, cosmos. They believed their myths because that was all they knew. Their "beliefs" didn't make it true.
You obviously haven't read enough books about Santa
Does most of the world believe in Santa? If so, that almost certainly means it's true!
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"whereby humans on every corner of the planet have always believed that what manifests around them must have been caused by a reality which transcends them, a reality which exists as a necessity of it's own existence.
Although numbers are no indicator of truth, even today, the vast majority of people on earth believe in a transcendent reality , although it was greater the further we go back in the past.
To the first, a cursory examination of the history of animism, totenism, and shamanism will give good clues as to the roots of religion.
To the second, you made my point as well as anyone could have, but do you understand the gravity of what you stated? The vast majority of people believe in a transcendent reality. Now, you ARE, I trust, of an education capable of realizing the tens of thousands of gods that humanity has invented. No? Are they not invented? Are they all real gods? Of course not, to you all but one are invented, to them, yours but not theirs. Be honest MR, that should be the only fact that a reasonable, rational, intelligent human needs, to claim otherwise, detracts severely from the three aforementioned traits.
Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Quote from: "antediluvian"So what!
Early peoples "on all corners of the planet" were ignorant and superstitious. They made up stories about stuff they couldn't understand.....stars, universe, cosmos. They believed their myths because that was all they knew. Their "beliefs" didn't make it true.
You obviously haven't read enough books about Santa
Does most of the world believe in Santa? If so, that almost certainly means it's true!
Hey watch it buddy.. I'VE SEEN THINGS! Bugs Bunny cartoons just to name one of those things.. Next thing you know you'll try to discredit the notion sticking your finger in a loaded shotgun will make it blow up in the shooters face with no consequence to the one sticking his or her finger in the barrel.. :shock:
QuoteEarly peoples "on all corners of the planet" were ignorant and superstitious.
More amazing is that in the 21st century there seems to be no shortage of ignorant and superstitious god freaks.
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
Wrong.
Sorry about that, but not only is the idea of a creator NOT universal, it's not even all that common. Most religions have a creation myth that assumes the Earth always existed in some form or another, and that the big deal is the introduction of humans.
Seriously, you should at least do a cursory study of comparative religions before embarrassing yourself like this.
That is actually absolutely false. Almost all world religions have a belief that a transcendent reality created the universe.
Bullshit.
Back up your claim or retract it.
Meanwhile, I'll show you how very, very wrong you are:
Creation Myths (//http://lmgtfy.com/?q=creation+myths)
At this point I'm thinking you're a troll simply spamming the site with nonsense for your own amusement, and you're likely an atheists already. But if not, you're either:
A. Ignorant
B. Lying
C. A moron
D. All of the above
Let us go through the arguments and see why. :wink:
QuoteQuite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters!
Right off the bat you are lying. You see, most gods that people believe in are mythical figures. They are not an obscure intelligence, they have character traits, defined personalities, commands and many also have a well described appearance. Believing in one random mythical creature is not really different from believing in another. How is comparing belief in mythical creatures to belief in mythical creature incorrect.
Of course, if you're a deist, you don't believe in a mythical creature. This is also a problem. There's no real definition for what a god is. We can only discuss it when the believer have defined whatever random unsupported nonsense they build their lives around.
QuoteIf we examine fairies and 'flying spaghetti monsters' these are all contingent imaginary forms of existence. That is to say , unless someone specifically mentioned them, you would have absolutely no reason for believing in them. It is with this logic an atheist asserts 'God' too has absolutely no reason to be believed.
Correct, and it's rock solid because the same applies to gods.
QuoteIf we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
Or rather mythical creatures who write books(have books written and loves to rape and murder people.
QuoteSo while the flying spaghetti monster does question organized religion, it does not at all effect the universal understanding that has occurred throughout history, whereby humans on every corner of the planet have always believed that what manifests around them must have been caused by a reality which transcends them, a reality which exists as a necessity of it's own existence.
This is not the case. Most god(s) have been thought to phycically exist on other planes and/or be capable of interacting with people. They are some kind of concious entity, not an obscure force, and they often had petty quarrels over sex and land. Sure, nonsense like transcendence might be used as the magical reason to try to get people to think the nonsense they are selling is possible.
QuoteWhat an atheist incorrectly does is labels the word 'God' to mean something totally imagined
Correction: Most likely imagined. 99.999% of all god(s)/religions cannot be right. Only 1 has the possibility to. But as we know 99.999% are fake and got strong believers and "revelations" despite of this" cances are that this 1 potentially true religion is just as fake.
Quoterather than a universal and almost instinctive realisation of an underlying intelligence and transcendent cause of our universe.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Dumbest shit you can read. Troll, troll, troll.
Though we have revolved to find patterns and think that actions are taken by actors, as this helped us run away from tigers. Aside from that:
LOLQuoteNote, I have not tried to prove our universe must have a transcendent cause by argument.
Yeah ... sure ...
QuoteI have merely asserted on the surface, it seems as if our universe does have a transcendent cause
If you can explain why it seems like that we will take you seriously. Your assertion is simply wrong as nothing suggests as and the top scientists who knows this shit don't find any reason to think so. Your next post should be explaining why this is so obvious when no evidence or logical arguments can be found. At least I haven't seen any.
Quoteand societies all throughout history have held a belief in such a reality.
Incorrect. They believed in macho men and sexy ladies fucking on the top of mountains while riding cool horses and occasionally messing with humans if they weren't praised enough.
I might read your thesis at another time. But if it's as dumb as this shit I don't know if I'll bother, and looking at your other posts I bet it is.
:rollin: :rollin: :popcorn: :popcorn:
MR, Do you know what mockery is? If so, then you (again) wasted your time with another thread.
Unless you and Bennyboy have to decided to debate, I'd like to set one up with you. I'd rather not another missed opportunity pass with you at the very least seeming to slide away the moment someone (bennyboy) unambiguously agrees to take you on.
What are you talking about? As far as I know, all Pastafarians agree that the FSM created the universe.
What's a god?
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
This word must have some double secret definition for you that the rest of us are not privy to. Gods appear quite simply as beefed up versions of humans and sometimes animals. They have moods and bodies and desire (and often pain and death and birth) just like humans. They have more power than humans, but powers that are seen in nature.
Is the image of a giant human throwing lighting and changing into animals to have sex somehow transcendent to you? Then certainly some kind of superman flying around and leaping tall buildings must likewise be a pointer to some underlying intelligence and transcendent cause of our universe.
Quote from: "pato15"What are you talking about? As far as I know, all Pastafarians agree that the FSM created the universe.
Hey now, believing in the FSM is
not a requirement for being a Pastafarian! It says so right in the gospel.
Also, as a child I rejected the notion of a god creating things, because it didn't make any sense. And I did go to church when I was a kid, I guess I was just naturally inquisitive and curious instead of accepting any answer thrown at me, or something. If you really think about it, even a child will understand the nonsense of it.
The only reasons children believe in gods is because
A: they trust their parents (a natural trait) and their parents tell them about them, and then their parents make them fucking terrified of gods, and tell their kids to never question them, and that slowly grinds into their brain to the point where it's so deeply ingrained that it takes years to get it out again
B: they just want easy answers because that way they won't have to think as hard
Quote from: "the_antithesis"What's a god?
I believe we've gone through this with MR before. His definition of his god (Allah) is whatever he wants it to be, every other description be damned.
Remember when I used his reasoning to evidence why I'm actually god and he can't disprove it? Oh lol
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
If you examine a science book now, you'll find out that we now know that stars aren't created, they aren't lit like cosmic candles by the invisible hands of the gods, they coalesse from hydrogen gas clouds.
Try science mendacium remedium, it works.
What does 'outside of time and space' mean?
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"That is actually absolutely false. Almost all world religions have a belief that a transcendent reality created the universe. Even the greeks believed in their own transcendent realities.
The Greek gods lived on Mount Olympus. This wasn't some imagined transcendent reality. Mount Olympus is a real place. You can even go there!
Mount Olympus (//https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=mount+olympus&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x135813ec0457a11b:0x3bc722babd926791,Mt+Olympus&gl=uk&t=p&ei=u_k-UYNwiI3sBuuCgdAB&ved=0CIUBELYD)
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters! However, is this a...
OK, before you go any further, just let me interrupt and first ask if you are a real idiot or just doing a parody of one?
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
Wrong.
Sorry about that, but not only is the idea of a creator NOT universal, it's not even all that common. Most religions have a creation myth that assumes the Earth always existed in some form or another, and that the big deal is the introduction of humans.
Seriously, you should at least do a cursory study of comparative religions before embarrassing yourself like this.
That is actually absolutely false. Almost all world religions have a belief that a transcendent reality created the universe. Even the greeks believed in their own transcendent realities.
Belief in some form of transcendent reality, irrespective of names or identity, has been universal with few exceptions.
That really is an abuse of 'most' religions, considering this is pretty common knowledge.
Furthermore, even if someone asserts that it was all 'God of the gaps'. This does not detract from the fact humans have always felt a need to ascribe what they saw around them to a higher, transcendent reality.
Although numbers are no indicator of truth, even today, the vast majority of people on earth believe in a transcendent reality , although it was greater the further we go back in the past.
You are wrong, on several levels.
Firstly, early religions were shamanistic and animistic in nature, devoid of gods.
Secondly, most of the creation myths prior to monotheistic beliefs centered around a creator deity creating humans, in a universe that was already present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology# ... _cosmology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology#Metaphysical_cosmology)
Quote from: "AxisMundi"Firstly, early religions were shamanistic and animistic in nature, devoid of gods.
Secondly, most of the creation myths prior to monotheistic beliefs centered around a creator deity creating humans, in a universe that was already present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology# ... _cosmology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology#Metaphysical_cosmology)
I'm not knowledgeable enough to enter this debate in earnest, but it's fun to speculate about this. I would guess that prehistoric people probably tried to initiate desired outcomes by attempting to use magic of their own, just as we see animistic societies today. Most early men would have been discouraged by their own personal attempts, but inevitably someone would come along that would convince others that he had actual magical abilities of his own. Furthermore, if he had a good line of bullshit, he could convince everyone to turn over the important job of conjuring to him, because after all, he was an "expert". So instead of having to go out and risk his life hunting dangerous prey, he would stay at home by the fire, and be showered with requests and gifts.
Now that's not to say prehistoric societies were not without their skeptics, and some of the skeptics might have misdirected their skepticism toward the sorcerers and witches, rather than the magic itself. The logical conclusion might have been that the shaman was in the business for his own best interests, because he would frequently put spells on members of the tribe who didn't treat him right (after all, how else would you explain Grog falling down and breaking his leg)? We actually see this today in animistic societies, where witches are burned or tied to trees in the jungle.
The bottom line is that lots of people believe in magic and magic requires magicians. They can be either human or imagined, but someone or something has to do the magic.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters! However, is this a...
OK, before you go any further, just let me interrupt and first ask if you are a real idiot or just doing a parody of one?
I say he is a funny troll .
Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters! However, is this a...
OK, before you go any further, just let me interrupt and first ask if you are a real idiot or just doing a parody of one?
I say he is a funny troll .
I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's not viewing his own arguments with the same lense that he's viewing everyone else's in.
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
People also believed witches were real. A history of believing something is real doesn't automatically make it real.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"What does 'outside of time and space' mean?
I think it's code for "imaginary."
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"[quote
I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's not viewing his own arguments with the same lense that he's viewing everyone else's in.
Maybe but I have my doubts . He is writing too many bullshit threads .
If the universe has an underlying intelligence, what's the mechanism for this intelligence?
Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"[quote
I don't think he's a troll, I just think he's not viewing his own arguments with the same lense that he's viewing everyone else's in.
Maybe but I have my doubts . He is writing too many bullshit threads .
Yeah, I think he's a troll. Sincere theists usually just posit one dumb ass argument, something they've read someplace, thinking it's some iron clad "You never heard this irrefutable argument before". Then it gets trashed and they leave. But this guy seems to be parroting a selection of the most classic dumb ass arguments he can find. Then when his dumb ass is refuted, he acts obtuse, or as if he didn't read the refutations. He could be retarded, but his writing ability is above that. I think he's just being a phony.
Quote from: "Johan"Quote from: "mendacium remedium"If we examine beliefs humans have held throughout history, although you see a variation of 'Gods', and a stronghold of monotheism, there has always been a belief that the stars, the universe, the cosmos, have originated by a transcendent , intelligence.
People also believed witches were real. A history of believing something is real doesn't automatically make it real.
Does that also apply to my relationship with Lexi Belle?
Poe's Law (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)
*Mod*- you guys are right. If he doesn't respond to some of the posts here and then goes ahead and posts another thread of BS, I will escort him to the door. Play with it while you can.-aitm
Quote from: "SGOS"Yeah, I think he's a troll. Sincere theists usually just posit one dumb ass argument, something they've read someplace, thinking it's some iron clad "You never heard this irrefutable argument before". Then it gets trashed and they leave.
This guy does pretty much the same thing, except after it gets trashed, he abandons the thread and starts it all over again in a new thread. It's a lovely variant that I'm tentatively calling dumb-and-run.
It's almost like he expects us to have goldfish memory and not remember his previous goofs before the forum outage.
QuoteThen when his dumb ass is refuted, he acts obtuse, or as if he didn't read the refutations. He could be retarded, but his writing ability is above that. I think he's just being a phony.
We has had people who write good and are still retarded. I'm not ruling out troll, but he's definitely retarded. And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word.
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quote from: "Davka"Sorry about that, but not only is the idea of a creator NOT universal, it's not even all that common. Most religions have a creation myth that assumes the Earth always existed in some form or another, and that the big deal is the introduction of humans.
Seriously, you should at least do a cursory study of comparative religions before embarrassing yourself like this.
That is actually absolutely false.
See, MR, that's the problem with your arguments. When faced with a fact (what Davka posted is a fact) that doesn't conform to your preconceived notions, you claim that the fact is wrong. If your ideas and reality don't agree, it's not reality that's wrong.
And that's why we mostly just make fun of you - because you're acting like a child in this forum.
I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "SGOS"Yeah, I think he's a troll. Sincere theists usually just posit one dumb ass argument, something they've read someplace, thinking it's some iron clad "You never heard this irrefutable argument before". Then it gets trashed and they leave.
This guy does pretty much the same thing, except after it gets trashed, he abandons the thread and starts it all over again in a new thread. It's a lovely variant that I'm tentatively calling dumb-and-run.
It's almost like he expects us to have goldfish memory and not remember his previous goofs before the forum outage.
QuoteThen when his dumb ass is refuted, he acts obtuse, or as if he didn't read the refutations. He could be retarded, but his writing ability is above that. I think he's just being a phony.
We has had people who write good and are still retarded. I'm not ruling out troll, but he's definitely retarded. And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word.
=D>
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"Quite often we see people comparing belief in an underlying intelligence to our universe as akin to believing in mythical creatures, fairies, and one particularly mildly amusing comparison I have seen – lobsters!
Wrong. This is not the point of FSM.
The point in these comparisons is to demonstrate the absurdity of believing in something for which there is no evidence. There is no more or less evidence for the existence of a Christian-like god than there is for an omnipotent flying spaghetti monster.
The specific beliefs themselves are not important, the lack of evidence is. Even if we take the existence of an omnipotent being as a given, there is still absolutely no evidence to suggest what form it takes. If someone told you to believe in an omnipotent flying spaghetti monster without a shred of evidence you'd laugh in their face, so why should it be any different when someone tells you to believe in a slightly different omnipotent being without a shred of evidence?
Evidence (or lack thereof) is the key.
Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Yeah, me neither. I mean, it's so obviously a
spaghetti-man argument!
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "the_antithesis"What's a god?
I believe we've gone through this with MR before. His definition of his god (Allah) is whatever he wants it to be, every other description be damned.
Remember when I used his reasoning to evidence why I'm actually god and he can't disprove it? Oh lol
lulz can be had, but good luck using reasoning and evidence to convince this one of anything other than what he wants to hear, which is "wow you're such a genius and a special little snowflake, everything you say is so enlightened!".
Quote from: "mendacium remedium"What an atheist incorrectly does is labels the word 'God' to mean something totally imagined, rather than a universal and almost instinctive realisation of an underlying intelligence and transcendent cause of our universe.
Note, I have not tried to prove our universe must have a transcendent cause by argument. I have merely asserted on the surface, it seems as if our universe does have a transcendent cause, and societies all throughout history have held a belief in such a reality.
False.
What YOU incorrectly do is to assume that the idea of god has existed since the dawn of time, when in fact, the idea (which is all it is) has only been around so long as people like you have failed to understand the true nature of things, or rather, have not sought to understand the true nature of things.
You want to believe that there is something greater than yourself, which is understandable of course, but simply allowing yourself to believe this, and indeed lying to yourself, does not make it true. Just because science cannot (YET) say what pre-dated the universe, does NOT in any way even HINT that a god exists nor does it mean anyone can substitute god into that gap. Science WILL one day (likely within our lifetimes) discover what pre-dates the universe, and in fact, String Theory is already beginning to show us that God isn't even necessary, (by allowing us to - at least in part- understand what pre-dates the universe)
MR, I'm sorry, I know you probably worked hard, but this is an absolute non-argument.
Valid refutations have been offered endlessly, I'll just add that the belief that, say... the sun revolved around the earth, par example, was even more "intrinsically held" because we actually thought we could see it happening.
The difference between the countless things we all believed that turned out to be wrong and the belief in god is that the latter is the one that was, is, and always will be based on nothing but faith (and deep emotion). That's why it's still here.
Also...
(//http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/4/4b/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster_2.jpg)
...do not make unto thee any graven images. The threats of eternal garlic in the rectum are not to be taken lightly.
Another post for me!
Quote from: "Sleeper"MR, I'm sorry, I know you probably worked hard, but this is an absolute non-argument.
He's in good company. It took 7 years for Ford to come up with Edsel, and it was a big flop too.
So, your god is real because people throughout history have believed in something similar, all who don't believe in your particular god are wrong, but the fact that they believed in something proves that you are right?
You will never grow intellectually as long as you keep making these ridiculous excuses for your beliefs. Why not just be honest with yourself and admit there is no proof, no evidence, you simply believe it to be true, though you can never prove it because it is beyond the physical, beyond the mind of man. I would still disagree with you and still think you were copping out to prevent actually thinking about it critically, but I would at least respect you more for that small nonsense than I do for these constant ignorant "proofs" you keep trying to offer. This is an argumentum ad populum. In fact, my entire response to anything MR posts in the future will consist of no more than just the most prevalent logical fallacy he is using at the time.
Ironically I see at least 3 logical fallacies in this argument posted in a thread about a logical fallacy we use. Apparently he can only see them one at a time. If you use more than one he's completely oblivious to them all.
I can't have him clutter our forum with trivial crap......er........hmmmm
well, we need that space for OUR trivial crap.
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
Essentially he thinks that every fart is absolute proof that his god, and only his god, is real and that this thing created everything through magics unknown, but still happily defined in any way which furthers is agenda.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
I assumed the same, and it's true that we committed a fallacy; We made up the FSM (I know I'll catch shit from the FSM's most ardent followers on that). But that's not a straw man argument. It's called "making something up."
I think most likely he's heard of the straw man fallacy but never actually read up on what it is, and he just thinks it means making up something that isn't real, probably because a straw man is not a real man.
But of course, I'm second guessing him. He probably has an even more stupid explanation for his reasoning.
Quote from: "SGOS"I assumed the same, and it's true that we committed a fallacy; We made up the FSM (I know I'll catch shit from the FSM's most ardent followers on that). But that's not a straw man argument. It's called "making something up."
I think most likely he's heard of the straw man fallacy but never actually read up on what it is, and he just thinks it means making up something that isn't real, probably because a straw man is not a real man.
But of course, I'm second guessing him. He probably has an even more stupid explanation for his reasoning.
Yes, MR is quite new to logical fallacies. We introduced him to them early on to describe his arguments and ever since he's been pointing out perceived fallacies in our arguments while continuing to produce copious amounts of logical fallacies in his own arguments. He seems to be under the impression that if he can find logical fallacies in the arguments against him it will both invalidate the arguments against him and excuse the fallacies in his own arguments. Not quite sure how that works out for him. Given that his conversion rate here is hanging right around (keep in mind, this is the last time I checked. There may be some updated data that I am not familiar with) 0% I would say it's not working out so well for him.
Where did he go?
He ran away like he usually does.
He'll be back though, in a few days. No doubt spouting some other nonsense that we've all seen before.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
I'm still not seeing the difference.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "SGOS"I can't figure out why the FSM is a straw man argument.
Don't worry, neither can MR
:rollin: You owe me a sip of bitter lime! Ha ha....
Ill buy you a beer when MR comes up with some evidence...or even just an original argument.
Might be waiting a while though...
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
I'm still not seeing the difference.
My talent is translating their posts into English, not making the posts make sense.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"From what I gathered based on trying to decipher his post, he thinks that Gods are believed in while the FSM is made up.
I'm still not seeing the difference.
My talent is translating their posts into English, not making the posts make sense.
:rollin: I think Jason meant he couldn't see the difference between gods that are made up, be they monotheistic, Greek, Roman, or Pastafarian.
Quote from: "Jesus"Where did he go?
When an argument gets too difficult to continue to defend rather than concede that he made a mistake he disappears for a few days or weeks, then comes back and starts a new thread with the same argument stated in a new way which he thinks will be easier to defend. This, by the way, is known as "moving the goalposts".
Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "Jesus"Where did he go?
When an argument gets too difficult to continue to defend rather than concede that he made a mistake he disappears for a few days or weeks, then comes back and starts a new thread with the same argument stated in a new way which he thinks will be easier to defend. This, by the way, is known as "moving the goalposts".
^^^ this . He is a troll.
"And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word." IOW, now don't take this the wrong way, but damn, you're really stupid!!
I think you all are misunderstanding MR's intentions. He knows he's right, so he keeps posting his BS thinking that eventually even the atheists on this forum will go out and buy burqas for their wives, girlfriends and grown daughters. It's possible he even thinks he's helping us.
Quote from: "NonXNonExX""And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word." IOW, now don't take this the wrong way, but damn, you're really stupid!!
I think you all are misunderstanding MR's intentions. He knows he's right, so he keeps posting his BS thinking that eventually even the atheists on this forum will go out and buy burqas for their wives, girlfriends and grown daughters. It's possible he even thinks he's helping us.
(//http://cdn.mdjunction.com/components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/cattoilet-4d01e24009a8479bfccf85d8b7da6818.gif)
we're like the toilet to his visits..............
Quote from: "NonXNonExX""And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word." IOW, now don't take this the wrong way, but damn, you're really stupid!!
I think you all are misunderstanding MR's intentions. He knows he's right, so he keeps posting his BS thinking that eventually even the atheists on this forum will go out and buy burqas for their wives, girlfriends and grown daughters. It's possible he even thinks he's helping us.
See your second sentence for an analysis of your last sentence. :)
Quote from: "NonXNonExX""And I don't mean that as a slur. I mean that in the clinical sense of the word." IOW, now don't take this the wrong way, but damn, you're really stupid!!
:lol: Pretty much.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"[ Image (//http://cdn.mdjunction.com/components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/cattoilet-4d01e24009a8479bfccf85d8b7da6818.gif) ]
:shock: I want one of those toilets for my cats' litter box.
Has anyone seen "messdacium remendium"???? :-)
QuoteAs far as I know, all Pastafarians agree that the FSM created the universe.
Yes...and should be served al dente with Romano cheese with red wine.